1
00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:03,560
Speaker 1: Cura.

2
00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,320
Speaker 2: I'm Helen from Chezy's and I'm here with Pa, our

3
00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:10,840
Speaker 2: security manager, to talk about scams. Scammers are catching lots

4
00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:13,399
Speaker 2: of New Zealanders out, so we thought we'd look at

5
00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,400
Speaker 2: the psyche of a scammer, some of the red flags

6
00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,639
Speaker 2: that we all miss and what to do with you

7
00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,560
Speaker 2: or someone you know get scammed. Hi, Pier, good to

8
00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:22,439
Speaker 2: have you in the studio.

9
00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:24,280
Speaker 1: Well thanks for having me in.

10
00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,920
Speaker 2: With scammers, what is the psyche? What's the behavior behind

11
00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:33,800
Speaker 2: their motivation and the behaviors that they exhibit toward unsuspecting people.

12
00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:38,000
Speaker 1: I think the psyche of a scammer is ultimately rooted

13
00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,800
Speaker 1: in financial gain, but beneath that, there's a lot of

14
00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,559
Speaker 1: things going on. You're depending on the type of scam

15
00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:48,000
Speaker 1: and the type of person you're dealing with. Often people

16
00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:52,080
Speaker 1: involved in scams are part of very large networks and

17
00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:56,639
Speaker 1: very complex kind of scam infrastructure, so to speak. Very

18
00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,280
Speaker 1: often the people you're talking about are you talking to

19
00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:01,680
Speaker 1: or chatting whether or who are called cold calling you

20
00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,319
Speaker 1: and things like that, are actually people coming from a

21
00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,840
Speaker 1: place of desperation. Sometimes they are victims themselves. They might

22
00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,840
Speaker 1: be stuck in a debt track or something like that

23
00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:14,200
Speaker 1: where they've got no choice but to your continue with

24
00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,759
Speaker 1: the activity. And other times they don't actually know they're

25
00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:20,360
Speaker 1: involved in a scam. As far as they're aware, they've

26
00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:24,240
Speaker 1: got a legitimate outbound call center role or your sales

27
00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:29,120
Speaker 1: role to refer people into the depths of a scam network.

28
00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:34,000
Speaker 2: They are just how sophisticated are these scam rings?

29
00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:40,440
Speaker 1: Incredibly sophisticated and incredibly well funded. So generally you have

30
00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:45,640
Speaker 1: you're at the top level international crime syndicate, you're involved

31
00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,120
Speaker 1: who do a lot of the planning and set up

32
00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,040
Speaker 1: a lot of the infrastructure and provide a lot of

33
00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,720
Speaker 1: the technology for scams to take place. And then a

34
00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:58,480
Speaker 1: lot of the kind of legwork and the scam behavior

35
00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:03,440
Speaker 1: that the public see is actually like outsourced across the world,

36
00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,400
Speaker 1: particularly in third world countries where people may not have

37
00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:07,840
Speaker 1: a better choice for an income.

38
00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,400
Speaker 2: What are the phases of being scammed right from the

39
00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,760
Speaker 2: very beginning to the end, would you say, so.

40
00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,760
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the kind of initial phase of a scam.

41
00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,160
Speaker 1: This is a phase where scammers tend to cast a

42
00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,359
Speaker 1: very wide net. It's quite rare that they're targeting individuals.

43
00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:30,200
Speaker 1: At this point. You imagine yourself going about your ordinary business.

44
00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:32,919
Speaker 1: You might see a post on social media that's you're

45
00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,960
Speaker 1: making an offer you can't refuse. You things in your

46
00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,080
Speaker 1: email inbox. You know they have a really strong sense

47
00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,600
Speaker 1: of urgency about them, that you have a call to action,

48
00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,720
Speaker 1: that you need to action then and there without thinking

49
00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:48,760
Speaker 1: about it too much further. And these will inevitably have

50
00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,440
Speaker 1: the goal of putting you in contact with a scammer

51
00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,720
Speaker 1: who will communicate with you and bring a person deeper

52
00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:55,720
Speaker 1: into the scam.

53
00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,440
Speaker 2: What would be the second phase of a scam.

54
00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,280
Speaker 1: Once you've made contact with the scammer, it's all about

55
00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:06,800
Speaker 1: building trust and rapport from their side. Obviously, you're a

56
00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,320
Speaker 1: lot of people are aware that scams happen. We see

57
00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,360
Speaker 1: communications day in day out about how to protect ourselves

58
00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:16,480
Speaker 1: from scams, and so scammers have to socially engineer their

59
00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:23,320
Speaker 1: way around the kind of your internal suspicion that we maintain.

60
00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:26,640
Speaker 1: And so at that point you start seeing that kind

61
00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,400
Speaker 1: of foot in the door pattern or the escalating yeses

62
00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,560
Speaker 1: where they'll make really small, innocuous asks of a person

63
00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,720
Speaker 1: and slowly ramp up those asks. So no request from

64
00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,560
Speaker 1: a scammer feels like very much bigger than the last request,

65
00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,760
Speaker 1: but actually after ten or so requests, you know they're

66
00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:50,880
Speaker 1: asking for your much larger things. At that point, the

67
00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,320
Speaker 1: scam is if someone's being roped in. These scammers have

68
00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,720
Speaker 1: kind of generated a lead, and very often they'll rely

69
00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:02,240
Speaker 1: on something like triangulation where they bring in a third person,

70
00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:07,560
Speaker 1: their manager or their special advisor, who not only is

71
00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,120
Speaker 1: it an appeal to authority, but it's also putting you

72
00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,960
Speaker 1: in a position where you're really privileged to kind of

73
00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:19,279
Speaker 1: have that time with them, right and often you're in

74
00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,120
Speaker 1: the case of things like investment scams, it's on the

75
00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,080
Speaker 1: basis of, oh, we're giving you this free advice for

76
00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,280
Speaker 1: a very limited time, so you better make the most

77
00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,440
Speaker 1: of that, or you miss out on your returns or

78
00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:33,799
Speaker 1: potentially you won't get to be part of their special

79
00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:38,000
Speaker 1: advice program or whatever the case may be. And it's

80
00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:43,560
Speaker 1: also at that stage an opportunity for them to triarge victims. Obviously,

81
00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,200
Speaker 1: if in their communications of victims indicated that they have

82
00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:49,919
Speaker 1: a high net worth or they have a lot of

83
00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:53,000
Speaker 1: money to it, or that they could potentially spend, then

84
00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,440
Speaker 1: they're likely to get referred to a higher performing manager

85
00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:00,200
Speaker 1: to try and convert that into income. For the scam,

86
00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,440
Speaker 1: the other things. You'll notice that that kind of second

87
00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:05,919
Speaker 1: stage is very often someone will get pulled into a

88
00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,679
Speaker 1: group chat. There'll be lots of people in there, people

89
00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,080
Speaker 1: talking really positively, maybe about the returns of the scam

90
00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:17,040
Speaker 1: and things like that, but most of those people are

91
00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,600
Speaker 1: going to be plants by the scammers you're to convince

92
00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,120
Speaker 1: you give you that kind of sense of safety that

93
00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,680
Speaker 1: a bunch of other people are benefiting from it. Once

94
00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:29,240
Speaker 1: you get into that kind of interaction with the kind

95
00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:31,880
Speaker 1: of scam manager or where you're at the point where

96
00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,360
Speaker 1: they're trying to actually execute the scam and get you

97
00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:36,640
Speaker 1: to do the thing that takes them to the angle,

98
00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:43,080
Speaker 1: whether that's providing bank account can't details, credentials, transferring funds,

99
00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,159
Speaker 1: you're investing in a specific instrument. In the case of

100
00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:52,000
Speaker 1: investment scam, there's generally a shift in behavior with these scammers.

101
00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,839
Speaker 1: You're no longer in a position where they're being nice

102
00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:57,840
Speaker 1: to you and giving you all this great advice and

103
00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:00,680
Speaker 1: kind of trying to rip you in this kind of

104
00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,400
Speaker 1: almost sinister feedback loop of when when you do the

105
00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,240
Speaker 1: things they ask, they're very very kind to you and

106
00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,800
Speaker 1: and very praising, But when you're non compliant, they'll often

107
00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,680
Speaker 1: be quite cruel, and that's that kind of cult like

108
00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,800
Speaker 1: behavioral loop where you get conditioned to doing the things

109
00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:25,839
Speaker 1: that make them happy, even though effectively they're a stranger

110
00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:31,760
Speaker 1: on the internet. Once a scam is kind of executed

111
00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:36,880
Speaker 1: on whatever its initial goal is, very often either they

112
00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:41,360
Speaker 1: go into like a cover up phase. You're maybe there

113
00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:43,320
Speaker 1: was a pump and dump scam, and they go, oh, no,

114
00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,440
Speaker 1: there wasn't a pump and dump, but you know, there's

115
00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,400
Speaker 1: these malicious people on the market short selling our stock.

116
00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,719
Speaker 1: We're sorry that you're falling victim to that. You know,

117
00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:54,360
Speaker 1: we're going to do the best we can to make

118
00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:58,840
Speaker 1: things right. Or sometimes they will just fall silent. You'll

119
00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,960
Speaker 1: get blocked. You the money, he's gone, they don't care

120
00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:07,200
Speaker 1: about you anymore. But also sometimes they will take the

121
00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,600
Speaker 1: turn of oh, you know, we're very sorry you lost money.

122
00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:15,080
Speaker 1: We can help compensate you, and then kind of bring

123
00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,360
Speaker 1: you back into the fold of complying with them and

124
00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,040
Speaker 1: participating further in their scam and losing out a bit more.

125
00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,840
Speaker 1: And though that kind of stuff we see more and

126
00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,560
Speaker 1: more of now, where not only is it happening from

127
00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:33,800
Speaker 1: the scam is someone's initially interacting with. But people are

128
00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,840
Speaker 1: searching online on social media. You're on Reddit, You're wherever

129
00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,880
Speaker 1: they go for information like what can I do? How

130
00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,680
Speaker 1: can I get my money back? And then they see ah,

131
00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,480
Speaker 1: like join this WhatsApp group, which is a group for

132
00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,000
Speaker 1: victims of this specific scam, you know, to get help.

133
00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,680
Speaker 1: We're going to put together a class action lawsuit or

134
00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,360
Speaker 1: you know, whatever they kind of framing they put around

135
00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:02,920
Speaker 1: it might be. And then immediately people get pulled back

136
00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:06,400
Speaker 1: into a secondary scam of oh, we can recover your money,

137
00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,720
Speaker 1: but it requires a fee, or we can only refund

138
00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:11,960
Speaker 1: to your credit card or your wise accounts, so we

139
00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:15,600
Speaker 1: need those details to refund to it, and things like that,

140
00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:20,760
Speaker 1: and all along this way, they're farming information from you

141
00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,600
Speaker 1: because your information has value, and at the same time,

142
00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,440
Speaker 1: they're overloading you with information to the point where, oh,

143
00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:34,240
Speaker 1: this system I'm interacting with is so complex that I

144
00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,719
Speaker 1: can't handle it by myself, and I must need these

145
00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:42,360
Speaker 1: people to help me. Sinister, sinister, indeed, pey, what are

146
00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:42,839
Speaker 1: some of the.

147
00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,120
Speaker 2: Red flags that many of us miss when it comes

148
00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:46,800
Speaker 2: to scamming.

149
00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:49,960
Speaker 1: I think, like we have you know, there's been a

150
00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:54,640
Speaker 1: lot of scam education over the years, right, and some

151
00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,280
Speaker 1: of the your common red flags we talk about is

152
00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,720
Speaker 1: that kind of sense of urgence. See, you know, if

153
00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,120
Speaker 1: you don't engage with us now, you might miss out

154
00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:10,120
Speaker 1: on your incredible returns, on a refund that you're apparently owed,

155
00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:15,040
Speaker 1: you're on things like that, or you're in other cases,

156
00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,760
Speaker 1: there's a sense of urgency around if you don't respond

157
00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,319
Speaker 1: to us, you might be in like legal trouble and

158
00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:24,880
Speaker 1: things like that. There's nearly always a sense of secrecy,

159
00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:29,320
Speaker 1: and it's kind of interesting in some of the widest

160
00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,880
Speaker 1: bread scams now where we see things like group chats

161
00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:36,000
Speaker 1: and that, because there's like this balance of scammers want

162
00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,160
Speaker 1: to recruit more people into the scam, and you know,

163
00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,760
Speaker 1: your friends and family maybe they want these unrealistic returns too.

164
00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:47,080
Speaker 1: But on the flip side, you can't tell too many people.

165
00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:52,520
Speaker 1: There's only limited spaces. You're like, don't broadcast this too

166
00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,880
Speaker 1: far because or or else will run out of spaces

167
00:09:55,880 --> 00:10:00,360
Speaker 1: and you won't get whatever you'uring goal is here, and

168
00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,320
Speaker 1: you're the reason they're so secretive like that, And why

169
00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,400
Speaker 1: there's always this sense of exclusivity is purely because if

170
00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:09,640
Speaker 1: you tell enough people about it, someone will tell you

171
00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,560
Speaker 1: it's a scam, and like the reality is as well.

172
00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:19,119
Speaker 1: Between the kind of first and last stages of most scams,

173
00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:24,679
Speaker 1: you're from that initial phishing, email, social media, ad impersonating

174
00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,280
Speaker 1: someone or something like that, you're you go into the

175
00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:34,240
Speaker 1: second stage, which feels really unrelated to the first part.

176
00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:39,000
Speaker 1: You're for example, well, when ad impersonating a company, you

177
00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,600
Speaker 1: might interact with that and then get routed to a

178
00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,319
Speaker 1: group chat which claims to be from somewhere else entirely,

179
00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,920
Speaker 1: and that should be a red flag right there. Another

180
00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,360
Speaker 1: really big red flag you're when you are dealing with

181
00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:00,400
Speaker 1: someone claiming to be an organization is when they're asking

182
00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:04,120
Speaker 1: you for information that that organization should already have about you,

183
00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,679
Speaker 1: or even requesting things like screenshots.

184
00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,280
Speaker 2: What would you say people can do if they have

185
00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,800
Speaker 2: been scammed or actually someone they know who and they're

186
00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,680
Speaker 2: close to, who's been scammed and is obviously pretty upset

187
00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:18,720
Speaker 2: with having lost whatever it might be.

188
00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,960
Speaker 1: So I think for individuals who feel like they've beformen

189
00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:28,720
Speaker 1: victim of a scam, your first priority is if you

190
00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,480
Speaker 1: have given over any account information and things like that,

191
00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:36,720
Speaker 1: is to resecure your accounts. You change your password enable

192
00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,280
Speaker 1: multi factor authentication and things like that, and then reach

193
00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:46,400
Speaker 1: out to the organization you're in question. So, for example,

194
00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,880
Speaker 1: if your chasy's count account was involved, we'd really like

195
00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:52,719
Speaker 1: to know about it so that we can help keep

196
00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:59,080
Speaker 1: you safe. In the case of your people whose fat

197
00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,440
Speaker 1: friends or famamily members might be scammed, it can get

198
00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:08,760
Speaker 1: really tricky really quickly. The reality of your modern scams

199
00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,800
Speaker 1: and the kind of dark psychology that exists in that

200
00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:18,240
Speaker 1: space is the longer someone is engaged with scammers, the

201
00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,360
Speaker 1: more brainwashed in the sense they are, and the more

202
00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,600
Speaker 1: kind of attached to the scam they become, and they

203
00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,880
Speaker 1: developed this kind of idea of some cost where if

204
00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,520
Speaker 1: they just engage with it more, maybe they'll get that

205
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,800
Speaker 1: or whatever they've lost so far back and they don't

206
00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:41,640
Speaker 1: want to lose that hope. I think the best bit

207
00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:46,359
Speaker 1: in some circumstances is if you know what accounts are involved,

208
00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,079
Speaker 1: or if it's with your bank, if it's with another platform,

209
00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,800
Speaker 1: you're reaching out to them and fearing, hey, I think

210
00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:57,920
Speaker 1: my family members being scammed, Like you're an organization, well

211
00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,800
Speaker 1: often be able to share information you're to you, but

212
00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,960
Speaker 1: they will be able to investigate and have a look

213
00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:08,199
Speaker 1: and help support your support that person. And of course

214
00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:13,040
Speaker 1: if you are quite concerned about your someone's behavior, like

215
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,040
Speaker 1: the kind of them concealing what they're doing with money

216
00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,280
Speaker 1: and things, and you think they might be engaged with

217
00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,959
Speaker 1: a scam, the police can also support with.

218
00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:27,920
Speaker 2: That thanks peer. Three takeaways about scamming. One would be

219
00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,520
Speaker 2: if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is,

220
00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,400
Speaker 2: so stop while you're ahead. The second thing is if

221
00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:38,600
Speaker 2: you're talking to an organization that should have your information already,

222
00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,160
Speaker 2: that's a red flag. They won't be asking you for

223
00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,560
Speaker 2: it because, as I say, they should have had it already.

224
00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,720
Speaker 2: And thirdly, if you're contacted by an organization that's been

225
00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:53,199
Speaker 2: you think impersonated, check with the organizations and the verified

226
00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,600
Speaker 2: channels to see in fact if it is a scam

227
00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:55,880
Speaker 2: or not.

228
00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,040
Speaker 1: From seven St