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Speaker 1: There are concerns that that bribery scandal at the Auckland

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Speaker 1: VT and Z could reveal wider issues. Investigators have found

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Speaker 1: testing officers were accepting payments to pass practical exams, which

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Speaker 1: resulted in over three hundred people having to retake their

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Speaker 1: licenses and five staff being sacked. Now, Julie Haggee is

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Speaker 1: Transparency Internationals Executive direct down with us. Now, how Julie,

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Speaker 1: hi there? Are you surprised by this or is this

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Speaker 1: the kind of thing that you already expected was happening

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Speaker 1: out there.

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Speaker 2: We've already seen a couple of cases. There's one back

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Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen exactly the same kind of seat but

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Speaker 2: with AA. So we have seen that, and we've seen

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Speaker 2: other types of licensing. This is a lot of areas

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Speaker 2: where licensing transfers down from a government through a law

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Speaker 2: to a government department, then out to a private company

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Speaker 2: or whatever, or a professional and so you have seen

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Speaker 2: instances of cases going building inspections, other professional types of licensing.

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Speaker 2: So it's not unusual. What you want to know, There's

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Speaker 2: two things. There's fairness, transparency and the safety. Isn't there

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Speaker 2: really the coolness core elements of it? So you want

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Speaker 2: to know that the agency responsible for doing the contracting out,

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Speaker 2: which is or they're doing the license providing the license,

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Speaker 2: which is n Z t A I presume has got

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Speaker 2: sufficient systems to be able to monitor they put in

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Speaker 2: place some expectations with the with the licensing agent of

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Speaker 2: ETNZ in this case r A, and that they've then

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Speaker 2: that they're checking that and they've got checking mechanisms and

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Speaker 2: that that then then the licensing the agents is doing

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Speaker 2: the same and you know, and so on, so that

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Speaker 2: that that gives you some confidence that you're not putting

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Speaker 2: people who are incapable of driving, you know, two thousand

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Speaker 2: kilogram piece of metal kilometers an hour on the motorway.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it is a there is a safety and

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Speaker 2: risk issue in this one. It's quite serious as well

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Speaker 2: as the fairness is everybody else sitting their licenses wants

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Speaker 2: has to do it, and they want to know that

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Speaker 2: that that nobody else is getting off cheaply or unfairly.

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Speaker 1: Like those have come to light. If it's been going

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Speaker 1: on for years undetected, how do you suddenly detect.

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Speaker 2: It be interesting to see because I mean I hasn't

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Speaker 2: I mean, just just a note there's been allegations of

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Speaker 2: bribery and people have been laid off, so I'm presuming

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Speaker 2: there might be a police investigation to follow them, and

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Speaker 2: then I would hope something like the Order to General

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Speaker 2: might have a look at the processes that occur between

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Speaker 2: those organizations to make sure that there's proper there's proper

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Speaker 2: revelation of these things happening. But we don't know. It

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Speaker 2: could have been a whistleblower, it could have been an

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Speaker 2: odd thing coming up, could have been somebody dubbed them in,

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Speaker 2: So you don't know, and something like that where it's

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Speaker 2: a one to one unless you've got some chicking mechanism

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Speaker 2: like you might have, whether they've got numbers of unusual

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Speaker 2: license behavior, you might have that, or you might have

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Speaker 2: you might have a conflict of interest decorations that they'd

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Speaker 2: be interesting to see if they did that, because you know,

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Speaker 2: that's an area that seems to have seems to be

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Speaker 2: an allegation of clue in this case, as there was

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Speaker 2: in the twenty eighteen case as well, And so you

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Speaker 2: wonder about the behavior and the training and the culture

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Speaker 2: that was existing and whether any of those things had

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Speaker 2: an impact on people feeling like I can get away

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Speaker 2: with it and they have felt they've got they could

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Speaker 2: get away with and make profit out of it. So

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Speaker 2: that's what it seems to it allegations, but that's what

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Speaker 2: it seems to be the case.

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Speaker 1: Do you believe that's the Do you believe our global

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Speaker 1: ranking which puts US at fourth for anti corruption.

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Speaker 2: Yet, well, it does put us at forth for anti

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Speaker 2: corruption and that's because compared compared to other countries, there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of good things going on in New Zealand

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Speaker 2: that aren't going on in other countries. It is it

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Speaker 2: is largely about public sector and political integrity that corruption

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Speaker 2: perceptions index, not about the private sector. So that that

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Speaker 2: is one thing. We do have corruption in New Zealand

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Speaker 2: just like everyone else has, and we're slipping and these

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Speaker 2: systems of integrity are what pull you back and get

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Speaker 2: you higher up. So this is another evident, another sort

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Speaker 2: of example of where systems that should be traveling down

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Speaker 2: the chain just as an integrity you know, the expectations

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Speaker 2: of correct behavior, the checking, the monitoring, the investigations when

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Speaker 2: they cure good whistleblowing processes, are they in place, because

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Speaker 2: if they're not further down the chain, then that's just

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Speaker 2: going to further erode people's trust in the whole system.

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Speaker 1: Very good point. Hey, thank you very much, Julie. Julie Haggie,

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Speaker 1: Transparency International's executive director here in New Zealand.

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