1 00:00:09,093 --> 00:00:11,973 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news Talks. It be 2 00:00:12,373 --> 00:00:16,173 Speaker 1: follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,693 --> 00:00:19,733 Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all 4 00:00:19,773 --> 00:00:24,813 Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of the now the Leighton 5 00:00:24,933 --> 00:00:27,653 Speaker 1: Smith Podcast powered by news Talks It be. 6 00:00:28,133 --> 00:00:31,093 Speaker 2: Welcome to the bearest of the Lighton Smith podcast for 7 00:00:31,213 --> 00:00:34,613 Speaker 2: the twenty ninth of January, and it is the final 8 00:00:34,973 --> 00:00:40,213 Speaker 2: replay in this particular run. We return next week with 9 00:00:40,693 --> 00:00:46,613 Speaker 2: some live content. The guest who we're replaying today is 10 00:00:46,653 --> 00:00:51,053 Speaker 2: a man named Robert McCulloch, Professor Robert McCulloch from Auckland University. 11 00:00:51,253 --> 00:00:53,973 Speaker 2: He has a resume to be envied. He has a 12 00:00:54,013 --> 00:00:58,293 Speaker 2: reputation that some people don't envy. In fact, some people 13 00:00:58,293 --> 00:01:04,333 Speaker 2: don't like him much because of his well opinions. But 14 00:01:05,133 --> 00:01:08,533 Speaker 2: aren't we all like that? He began his tertiary education 15 00:01:08,653 --> 00:01:11,493 Speaker 2: at the University of Auckland, continued it at the London 16 00:01:11,493 --> 00:01:15,773 Speaker 2: School of Economics and at Princeton University. He was director 17 00:01:15,813 --> 00:01:20,133 Speaker 2: of the PhD program at Imperial College, London and he's 18 00:01:20,173 --> 00:01:23,173 Speaker 2: been awarded numerous prizes along the way and returned to 19 00:01:23,373 --> 00:01:27,813 Speaker 2: New Zealand twelve years ago He is professor of Macroeconomics 20 00:01:27,853 --> 00:01:31,853 Speaker 2: at Auckland University and publishes widely, including his own site 21 00:01:32,533 --> 00:01:36,693 Speaker 2: Down to Earth Kiwi, which seems to have become more 22 00:01:36,733 --> 00:01:40,653 Speaker 2: active recently. I think it coincided with the interview that 23 00:01:40,693 --> 00:01:44,173 Speaker 2: we've done that you're about to hear. I may be 24 00:01:44,213 --> 00:01:48,053 Speaker 2: presuming too much though, and in spite of his career success, 25 00:01:48,053 --> 00:01:52,133 Speaker 2: he appears modest, but with the ability and the intent, 26 00:01:52,813 --> 00:01:56,013 Speaker 2: the intent to ruffle feathers. Now. This was a wide 27 00:01:56,133 --> 00:01:59,093 Speaker 2: ranging and very enjoyable discussion. A trust that you will 28 00:01:59,093 --> 00:02:14,053 Speaker 2: also feel the same Layton Smith. Leverrix is an antihistamine 29 00:02:14,093 --> 00:02:17,933 Speaker 2: made in Switzerland to the highest quality. Leverix relieves hay 30 00:02:17,973 --> 00:02:21,853 Speaker 2: fever in skin, allergies or itchy skin. It's a dual 31 00:02:21,893 --> 00:02:27,653 Speaker 2: action antihistamine and has a unique nasal decongestent action. 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Farmer Broker Auckland Robert McCulloch is Professor 41 00:03:11,293 --> 00:03:16,853 Speaker 2: of macro Economics at Auckland University. Now he has a 42 00:03:16,933 --> 00:03:21,213 Speaker 2: very long resume, but we will stick with the professorship 43 00:03:21,213 --> 00:03:23,053 Speaker 2: at the moment because that's all that matters to us. 44 00:03:23,373 --> 00:03:26,093 Speaker 2: He is a Kiwi, he's a New Zealander. He's worked 45 00:03:26,973 --> 00:03:29,973 Speaker 2: and studied in various universities and places around the world. 46 00:03:30,933 --> 00:03:34,933 Speaker 2: Very very impressive. When did you return to By the way, 47 00:03:34,933 --> 00:03:37,053 Speaker 2: welcome to the podcast. When did you return to New 48 00:03:37,133 --> 00:03:41,413 Speaker 2: Zealand About twelve years ago? Have you been at Auckland 49 00:03:42,173 --> 00:03:43,933 Speaker 2: University all that time? 50 00:03:45,053 --> 00:03:46,013 Speaker 3: About a decade? 51 00:03:46,213 --> 00:03:49,453 Speaker 4: And when I left school in university, I work in 52 00:03:49,493 --> 00:03:53,693 Speaker 4: Wellington at Reserve Bank of New Zealand for a couple 53 00:03:53,693 --> 00:03:55,413 Speaker 4: of years before going abroad. 54 00:03:55,933 --> 00:04:00,213 Speaker 2: How buried are you in the subject of macroeconomics. 55 00:04:00,573 --> 00:04:04,293 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it's the subject I've been studying for about 56 00:04:04,333 --> 00:04:06,773 Speaker 3: twenty thirty years. 57 00:04:07,653 --> 00:04:11,493 Speaker 4: In not just in this country, around around the world, 58 00:04:12,013 --> 00:04:16,653 Speaker 4: and I take a great interest not just in economics, 59 00:04:16,693 --> 00:04:17,333 Speaker 4: but also. 60 00:04:17,573 --> 00:04:21,093 Speaker 3: Politics as it relates to the subject. 61 00:04:21,173 --> 00:04:25,053 Speaker 4: I used to attend the meetings of the NZET Initiative, 62 00:04:26,333 --> 00:04:29,133 Speaker 4: which is this sort of think tank National Party advisor 63 00:04:29,173 --> 00:04:34,053 Speaker 4: on behalf of one of their members, the former Bear Baron, 64 00:04:34,293 --> 00:04:36,973 Speaker 4: Sir Douglas Myers, who died a number of years ago. 65 00:04:37,093 --> 00:04:38,013 Speaker 3: So I take an interest. 66 00:04:38,053 --> 00:04:40,493 Speaker 4: It's not just sort of public sector but private sector, 67 00:04:41,253 --> 00:04:43,253 Speaker 4: quite quite a range as well as politics. 68 00:04:43,773 --> 00:04:46,933 Speaker 2: The Reserve Bank, of course is another interest that you 69 00:04:46,973 --> 00:04:51,013 Speaker 2: would have. Yes, so we'll get to the Reserve Bank shortly. 70 00:04:51,333 --> 00:04:55,213 Speaker 2: But the state of the country at the moment financially economically, 71 00:04:55,773 --> 00:04:56,613 Speaker 2: how do you view it? 72 00:04:56,933 --> 00:05:01,853 Speaker 4: Well, it's not great, of course. Why isn't it great? 73 00:05:02,973 --> 00:05:07,093 Speaker 4: A lot of it has to do with how the 74 00:05:07,093 --> 00:05:13,333 Speaker 4: country was managed during the COVID years and the finance 75 00:05:13,413 --> 00:05:17,533 Speaker 4: minister back then, Robertson, who's popped up as vice chancellor 76 00:05:17,693 --> 00:05:21,533 Speaker 4: of Otaga University on six hundred and twenty nine thousand 77 00:05:21,573 --> 00:05:21,893 Speaker 4: a year. 78 00:05:21,973 --> 00:05:25,253 Speaker 3: By the way, Grant Robertson assured us. 79 00:05:25,933 --> 00:05:28,733 Speaker 4: That he really staked his reputation on the fact that 80 00:05:29,293 --> 00:05:33,213 Speaker 4: he said the COVID policy of the government would create 81 00:05:33,293 --> 00:05:36,693 Speaker 4: good health outcomes and good economic outcomes. 82 00:05:36,733 --> 00:05:39,213 Speaker 3: The two went exactly had in hand. 83 00:05:40,093 --> 00:05:45,373 Speaker 4: Well, that's been proven to be false, and that line 84 00:05:45,533 --> 00:05:51,253 Speaker 4: was also promoted by Michael Baker at the epidemiologist at 85 00:05:51,253 --> 00:05:52,333 Speaker 4: Otaga University. 86 00:05:52,413 --> 00:05:55,613 Speaker 3: That's just not true. As a result. 87 00:05:55,693 --> 00:05:59,573 Speaker 4: Of the policies during the COVID years in which they 88 00:06:00,293 --> 00:06:04,453 Speaker 4: Reserve Bank printed fifty billion bucks of cash on top 89 00:06:04,493 --> 00:06:08,853 Speaker 4: of a massive fiscal expansion of the government of Robertson 90 00:06:08,933 --> 00:06:14,973 Speaker 4: financed by debt, those over the top policies have landed us. 91 00:06:16,173 --> 00:06:18,373 Speaker 3: Have a large part of the responsibility for. 92 00:06:18,413 --> 00:06:22,773 Speaker 4: Landing us in the mess we're currently in, which is 93 00:06:22,853 --> 00:06:26,173 Speaker 4: a recession. Westpac economists of predicting it might even be 94 00:06:26,613 --> 00:06:28,773 Speaker 4: a triple dip recession. 95 00:06:29,733 --> 00:06:31,773 Speaker 3: And so we're still. 96 00:06:31,533 --> 00:06:36,893 Speaker 4: Emerging from the carnage of those six years of mismanagement 97 00:06:37,333 --> 00:06:39,813 Speaker 4: by Grant Robertson. So you know, good luck to Otaga 98 00:06:39,933 --> 00:06:43,853 Speaker 4: University because Robinson's been hired by them to sort out 99 00:06:43,893 --> 00:06:49,853 Speaker 4: their financial situation, while Grant has left the financial situation 100 00:06:49,933 --> 00:06:51,973 Speaker 4: of this country in an utter shambles. 101 00:06:52,733 --> 00:06:54,973 Speaker 2: So you singled him out as far as the government 102 00:06:55,053 --> 00:07:00,613 Speaker 2: is concerned, Does the then Prime Minister have a percentage 103 00:07:00,613 --> 00:07:01,653 Speaker 2: of responsibility for that? 104 00:07:02,613 --> 00:07:06,733 Speaker 3: Well, of course, because there was this view. 105 00:07:07,293 --> 00:07:12,733 Speaker 4: That they bought into, coming from their advisors like Baker 106 00:07:12,733 --> 00:07:19,253 Speaker 4: and Otago. The theme of their government was good health 107 00:07:19,253 --> 00:07:22,533 Speaker 4: outcomes go hand in hand with good economic outcomes. They 108 00:07:22,573 --> 00:07:27,693 Speaker 4: thought everything they were doing in terms of COVID would 109 00:07:27,973 --> 00:07:29,853 Speaker 4: lead to the best. 110 00:07:29,653 --> 00:07:31,093 Speaker 3: Economic outcomes in the world. 111 00:07:31,173 --> 00:07:33,453 Speaker 4: So they argued, we're the best health outcomes and we'd 112 00:07:33,453 --> 00:07:38,053 Speaker 4: have the best economic outcomes. Well, funnily enough, America is 113 00:07:38,093 --> 00:07:40,973 Speaker 4: currently booming and we're in a recession. 114 00:07:42,453 --> 00:07:45,493 Speaker 3: So heck, that was a bit off, wasn't it? 115 00:07:45,573 --> 00:07:50,573 Speaker 4: And what really stuff the country was towards the end 116 00:07:50,813 --> 00:07:54,333 Speaker 4: of twenty twenty one going right Quite recently into twenty 117 00:07:54,373 --> 00:07:59,133 Speaker 4: twenty two, Auckland was in a full scale lockdown. So 118 00:07:59,333 --> 00:08:02,573 Speaker 4: the city where almost forty percent of the country live, 119 00:08:03,053 --> 00:08:07,773 Speaker 4: the hub of much of its economic output, was shut 120 00:08:07,893 --> 00:08:14,013 Speaker 4: down and the entire city was locked up. And you 121 00:08:14,053 --> 00:08:17,613 Speaker 4: know that, I think took away the mojo of Auckland. 122 00:08:17,613 --> 00:08:21,773 Speaker 4: It took away our confidence and Hipkins and a Deern 123 00:08:22,093 --> 00:08:25,493 Speaker 4: were largely responsible for that. Seems at some sort of 124 00:08:25,533 --> 00:08:29,893 Speaker 4: quite deep level, Hepkins really doesn't like Auckland, and Auckland 125 00:08:29,893 --> 00:08:32,813 Speaker 4: doesn't really like him, so it's hard to see how 126 00:08:32,853 --> 00:08:36,613 Speaker 4: he could ever really hope being Prime minister again when 127 00:08:36,933 --> 00:08:40,373 Speaker 4: he did that to forty percent of the country's population 128 00:08:40,693 --> 00:08:42,653 Speaker 4: and stuffed the economy in the process. 129 00:08:44,773 --> 00:08:48,253 Speaker 2: It's a very interesting and I think very accurate take. 130 00:08:49,373 --> 00:08:51,813 Speaker 2: But there were other things that contributed to the to 131 00:08:51,853 --> 00:08:55,053 Speaker 2: the situation in Auckland. Of course, we'll get onto one 132 00:08:55,093 --> 00:08:57,613 Speaker 2: of those. No, we'll get onto a couple of those shortly. 133 00:08:58,493 --> 00:09:01,773 Speaker 2: There is another matter that has bugged this country for 134 00:09:01,813 --> 00:09:06,173 Speaker 2: a long time, productivity or lack of it. More importantly, 135 00:09:06,893 --> 00:09:11,213 Speaker 2: why is it that our product activity has been steamied 136 00:09:12,213 --> 00:09:14,853 Speaker 2: for so long and nobody seems to be able to 137 00:09:14,893 --> 00:09:17,853 Speaker 2: make what is a worthwhile impact upon it. 138 00:09:19,853 --> 00:09:24,493 Speaker 4: Well, yes, productivity. It's in the news all the time. 139 00:09:24,573 --> 00:09:28,613 Speaker 4: It has been for the last twenty odd years. And 140 00:09:29,973 --> 00:09:34,453 Speaker 4: my view of that is that the so called experts, 141 00:09:35,453 --> 00:09:38,253 Speaker 4: and you know some folks would say, and I'm meant 142 00:09:38,253 --> 00:09:40,693 Speaker 4: to be an expert. Well, the government set up the 143 00:09:40,733 --> 00:09:46,533 Speaker 4: Productivity Commission, which was focused entirely on that matter, how 144 00:09:46,573 --> 00:09:49,453 Speaker 4: to find out what was causing low productivity and how 145 00:09:49,493 --> 00:09:52,533 Speaker 4: to fix it, and it's recently been wound up, it's 146 00:09:52,573 --> 00:09:55,173 Speaker 4: been abolished by the government. So my view on that is, 147 00:09:55,933 --> 00:09:59,893 Speaker 4: if you're briefly honest about it, we still don't know 148 00:10:00,693 --> 00:10:05,413 Speaker 4: exactly what has held back productivity growth in the country, 149 00:10:06,373 --> 00:10:11,813 Speaker 4: and I think that severe solution. Instead, you have a 150 00:10:11,893 --> 00:10:17,333 Speaker 4: different person every week saying they blame red tape. Others 151 00:10:17,373 --> 00:10:24,493 Speaker 4: blame how geographic isolation. Some people say there's something wrong 152 00:10:24,573 --> 00:10:31,333 Speaker 4: with the tax system and that should be changed. The 153 00:10:31,373 --> 00:10:34,813 Speaker 4: Productivity Commission said, where you know, so far away from 154 00:10:34,853 --> 00:10:35,973 Speaker 4: our major markets. 155 00:10:36,013 --> 00:10:37,253 Speaker 3: We're a small country. 156 00:10:37,693 --> 00:10:42,613 Speaker 4: But the Productivity Commission ended up listing about twenty different factors, 157 00:10:43,133 --> 00:10:47,213 Speaker 4: And in a way, that's unsatisfactory because you really want 158 00:10:47,213 --> 00:10:50,213 Speaker 4: to know what's the most important factor, and you know, 159 00:10:50,493 --> 00:10:53,373 Speaker 4: a ranking of the factors, what's the thing we should 160 00:10:53,413 --> 00:10:54,533 Speaker 4: really focus on. 161 00:10:55,373 --> 00:10:56,573 Speaker 3: Is it, say, red tape? 162 00:10:56,773 --> 00:11:00,293 Speaker 4: And you know David Seymour's going to head up a 163 00:11:00,293 --> 00:11:02,933 Speaker 4: new Ministry of regulation to try to cut that. But 164 00:11:03,093 --> 00:11:06,093 Speaker 4: is that the main issue or is it something else? 165 00:11:06,733 --> 00:11:09,693 Speaker 4: And I think the Productivity Commission failed because it never 166 00:11:10,333 --> 00:11:15,253 Speaker 4: really ranked that long list in order of most to 167 00:11:15,373 --> 00:11:21,253 Speaker 4: least important. So it is unsatisfactory that for that reason, 168 00:11:21,613 --> 00:11:26,493 Speaker 4: because you know, the experts have never definitively identified what 169 00:11:26,853 --> 00:11:31,013 Speaker 4: it is. And it's become also confused by the fact 170 00:11:31,013 --> 00:11:34,973 Speaker 4: that productivity has been slowing in other countries like the 171 00:11:35,093 --> 00:11:39,173 Speaker 4: United States and in Europe that many many of those 172 00:11:39,213 --> 00:11:43,653 Speaker 4: countries have been suffering a productivity slow down, and some 173 00:11:43,733 --> 00:11:47,173 Speaker 4: of them are pointing to issues like the aging population. 174 00:11:48,173 --> 00:11:50,653 Speaker 3: They're just not as sort of many young. 175 00:11:50,893 --> 00:11:53,853 Speaker 4: People who sort of tend to be more innovative than 176 00:11:54,213 --> 00:11:59,813 Speaker 4: older people. So it's incredibly hard to identify exactly what 177 00:12:00,213 --> 00:12:06,333 Speaker 4: the cause is. My suspicion in this country over the 178 00:12:06,413 --> 00:12:10,773 Speaker 4: last ten or so years is that we've drifted into 179 00:12:11,053 --> 00:12:16,413 Speaker 4: not becoming a meritocracy, and the people, the students we have, 180 00:12:16,653 --> 00:12:20,293 Speaker 4: the ones who work hardest get the highest grades, they're. 181 00:12:20,053 --> 00:12:21,373 Speaker 3: Not getting the best jobs. 182 00:12:22,453 --> 00:12:28,533 Speaker 4: Other factors are coming into play, and certainly we know 183 00:12:28,733 --> 00:12:31,693 Speaker 4: if you try to run a nation where the best 184 00:12:31,733 --> 00:12:36,293 Speaker 4: people are not promoted to the top, productivity we know 185 00:12:36,453 --> 00:12:38,053 Speaker 4: for a fact in economics is. 186 00:12:38,053 --> 00:12:39,613 Speaker 3: Really going to suffer. 187 00:12:40,613 --> 00:12:45,293 Speaker 4: Market economies are built on rewarding effort and ability. And 188 00:12:46,053 --> 00:12:49,853 Speaker 4: so my sort of preferred suspect as to what's holding 189 00:12:49,933 --> 00:12:51,613 Speaker 4: us back is we have to get back to a 190 00:12:51,693 --> 00:12:55,973 Speaker 4: country where meritocracy is rewarded. And if you look at 191 00:12:55,973 --> 00:13:00,213 Speaker 4: the outstanding performance of our athletes, how is the Olympic 192 00:13:00,413 --> 00:13:05,093 Speaker 4: team chosen? Is it chosen on sort of other factors 193 00:13:05,173 --> 00:13:09,413 Speaker 4: coming into play, on what kind of tea that looks 194 00:13:09,533 --> 00:13:12,013 Speaker 4: nice that you want, or is it done on who 195 00:13:12,053 --> 00:13:15,973 Speaker 4: got who was the fastest, who was the fastest canoeist, 196 00:13:16,413 --> 00:13:19,613 Speaker 4: who was the quickest, who could jump the highest and 197 00:13:19,693 --> 00:13:23,533 Speaker 4: high jump. No, they select the team on who was 198 00:13:23,613 --> 00:13:25,813 Speaker 4: the best, the highest, the strongest. 199 00:13:25,933 --> 00:13:27,653 Speaker 3: They don't select it on other factors. 200 00:13:27,813 --> 00:13:30,533 Speaker 4: And look at what the Kiwi athletes did, one of 201 00:13:30,613 --> 00:13:33,173 Speaker 4: the best performances in the world. So I think I 202 00:13:33,213 --> 00:13:37,373 Speaker 4: think as a country we respond to incentives, and I think, 203 00:13:37,413 --> 00:13:42,013 Speaker 4: particularly over the last six years, certainly labor virtually destroyed 204 00:13:42,093 --> 00:13:45,013 Speaker 4: the idea of meritocracy in the country. I think it's 205 00:13:45,093 --> 00:13:47,413 Speaker 4: unforgivable what they did in that respect. 206 00:13:47,613 --> 00:13:50,813 Speaker 3: We have to get back to rewarding merit. That's my view. 207 00:13:51,173 --> 00:13:53,653 Speaker 2: That's I'm not going to prove easy, I feel, but 208 00:13:54,173 --> 00:13:57,733 Speaker 2: I very much appreciated you pointing out the dying off 209 00:13:57,973 --> 00:14:02,693 Speaker 2: of a certain class of the population. I don't want 210 00:14:02,693 --> 00:14:05,213 Speaker 2: to narrow it down, but just the dying off of 211 00:14:05,973 --> 00:14:10,173 Speaker 2: an attitude that came out of the Second World War. 212 00:14:10,253 --> 00:14:14,053 Speaker 2: If it wasn't there before, uh and and and stayed 213 00:14:14,053 --> 00:14:16,213 Speaker 2: for a long time, and then all of us, well 214 00:14:16,293 --> 00:14:18,053 Speaker 2: not all of a sudden, but it seemed all of 215 00:14:18,053 --> 00:14:21,853 Speaker 2: a sudden you had a different approach from those who 216 00:14:21,893 --> 00:14:27,973 Speaker 2: were exiting school going on to to wherever else they 217 00:14:28,013 --> 00:14:32,533 Speaker 2: went that lacked lacked an attitude. Now I can I 218 00:14:32,573 --> 00:14:36,053 Speaker 2: can point to that in the in the industry or 219 00:14:36,053 --> 00:14:39,293 Speaker 2: the business that I've been in, when they've experienced people 220 00:14:39,333 --> 00:14:46,093 Speaker 2: are playing for jobs and it's nights or weekends or 221 00:14:46,133 --> 00:14:48,493 Speaker 2: a bit of both or whatever. No, no, no, no, 222 00:14:49,533 --> 00:14:52,853 Speaker 2: I don't work weekends. I don't work nights. I've got 223 00:14:52,893 --> 00:14:56,013 Speaker 2: other things to do. And this has been an attitude. 224 00:14:56,213 --> 00:14:59,133 Speaker 2: And the Minuture, the Minuture hear that it's really a 225 00:14:59,213 --> 00:15:01,773 Speaker 2: case of I want the corner office. Not did you 226 00:15:01,813 --> 00:15:04,933 Speaker 2: have officers anymore in broadcasting, but I want the corner office, 227 00:15:04,933 --> 00:15:07,293 Speaker 2: and I want at least three phones and a television, 228 00:15:08,133 --> 00:15:09,733 Speaker 2: and by the way, while you're at it, get me 229 00:15:09,773 --> 00:15:15,813 Speaker 2: a maid. That's the attitude that has entered the arena, 230 00:15:15,973 --> 00:15:17,773 Speaker 2: and I think, I think that's why it's been very 231 00:15:17,853 --> 00:15:19,733 Speaker 2: hard to identify it. 232 00:15:19,813 --> 00:15:22,893 Speaker 4: You know, if you're looking at statistics and numbers, it's 233 00:15:23,013 --> 00:15:26,013 Speaker 4: very hard to prove it when it's sort of a 234 00:15:26,013 --> 00:15:31,373 Speaker 4: cultural change in an attitude. But that's what my suspicion 235 00:15:31,493 --> 00:15:34,453 Speaker 4: is it is that kind of attitude change you're changing 236 00:15:34,813 --> 00:15:37,653 Speaker 4: or you're describing. You know, I've heard by the way, 237 00:15:38,333 --> 00:15:43,213 Speaker 4: it was from the wife whose husband was the former 238 00:15:43,533 --> 00:15:49,373 Speaker 4: chief executive of Southern Cross Medical Insurance, so they know 239 00:15:49,453 --> 00:15:52,413 Speaker 4: all the sort of doctors in the country. She said, 240 00:15:52,413 --> 00:15:55,253 Speaker 4: there is no doctor shortage in the country. That's all 241 00:15:55,293 --> 00:16:00,013 Speaker 4: a myth. Apparently the talk is as you say that 242 00:16:00,213 --> 00:16:03,013 Speaker 4: a large number of medical school graduates now don't want 243 00:16:03,053 --> 00:16:06,933 Speaker 4: to work, you know, five seven days a week. My 244 00:16:07,013 --> 00:16:09,693 Speaker 4: dad was a GP works even days a week for 245 00:16:09,813 --> 00:16:11,653 Speaker 4: many years when I was growing up. He was on 246 00:16:11,773 --> 00:16:14,653 Speaker 4: call frequently in the weekends. Apparently, she said, you know, 247 00:16:14,693 --> 00:16:17,973 Speaker 4: a lot of graduates now want to work Tuesday to Thursday, 248 00:16:18,733 --> 00:16:21,813 Speaker 4: you know, have these sort of hours of their choosing, 249 00:16:22,373 --> 00:16:24,653 Speaker 4: and they're just as an attitude, they don't want to 250 00:16:24,733 --> 00:16:26,733 Speaker 4: work like the previous generation did. 251 00:16:27,573 --> 00:16:31,333 Speaker 2: Well, there's another aspect to the medical side of things, 252 00:16:31,373 --> 00:16:37,053 Speaker 2: and that is the changes in well the attempted changes 253 00:16:37,973 --> 00:16:45,253 Speaker 2: in hospitals by boards of how doctors conduct themselves. And 254 00:16:45,733 --> 00:16:48,333 Speaker 2: I have to include, because I can't avoid it, the 255 00:16:49,013 --> 00:16:53,053 Speaker 2: racial aspects of it with and I've been shown numerous, 256 00:16:53,133 --> 00:16:57,653 Speaker 2: on numerous occasions examples of this where if you are MARI, 257 00:16:58,893 --> 00:17:02,933 Speaker 2: then you are entitled to first and more of much 258 00:17:02,973 --> 00:17:07,373 Speaker 2: of the health system. And there's no avoiding it. And 259 00:17:07,053 --> 00:17:13,173 Speaker 2: I said to very good specialist when he was actually 260 00:17:13,213 --> 00:17:16,453 Speaker 2: showing me what he had to deal with, I said, 261 00:17:16,533 --> 00:17:20,733 Speaker 2: would you consider leaving the country without breathing? He said yes, 262 00:17:21,493 --> 00:17:25,893 Speaker 2: And that probably has led to the belief, well contributed 263 00:17:25,933 --> 00:17:28,333 Speaker 2: to the belief that we have a shortage of doctors, 264 00:17:28,373 --> 00:17:32,053 Speaker 2: and maybe we have a shortage of specialists. I don't know. 265 00:17:33,773 --> 00:17:36,493 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, the entire health system needs to be changed. 266 00:17:36,533 --> 00:17:38,613 Speaker 4: It's not a matter of just changing the person at 267 00:17:38,653 --> 00:17:43,573 Speaker 4: the top, like Lester Levy. The entire system has to 268 00:17:43,613 --> 00:17:47,053 Speaker 4: be changed. My preferred reform, which I don't think that 269 00:17:47,053 --> 00:17:51,493 Speaker 4: the NATS have got the guts to do, is to 270 00:17:51,573 --> 00:17:54,413 Speaker 4: keep the single payer structure. 271 00:17:53,973 --> 00:17:54,333 Speaker 3: That we have. 272 00:17:54,453 --> 00:17:57,693 Speaker 4: That as the government pays the bills universal health care 273 00:17:58,093 --> 00:18:02,133 Speaker 4: so no one has to worry, but it negotiates prices 274 00:18:02,813 --> 00:18:06,613 Speaker 4: at the hospitals for all different procedures. Barmak already does 275 00:18:06,693 --> 00:18:12,373 Speaker 4: that with the private drug companies. The medical laboratories are private, 276 00:18:12,453 --> 00:18:16,613 Speaker 4: gps are private practices, so the government negotiates prices and 277 00:18:16,653 --> 00:18:20,413 Speaker 4: then anyone public or private can offer their services at 278 00:18:20,533 --> 00:18:21,973 Speaker 4: those at those prices. 279 00:18:22,613 --> 00:18:24,413 Speaker 3: And if it turns out that. 280 00:18:25,733 --> 00:18:31,773 Speaker 4: Over half of the hill system that people prefer to 281 00:18:31,813 --> 00:18:34,293 Speaker 4: go private and over half of it is private suppliers, 282 00:18:34,373 --> 00:18:39,693 Speaker 4: and that's fantastic, and the public hospitals maybe become smaller, 283 00:18:40,333 --> 00:18:42,773 Speaker 4: or if the public sector is able to outcompete the 284 00:18:42,813 --> 00:18:47,213 Speaker 4: private that's great as well. But we need massive influx 285 00:18:47,213 --> 00:18:53,053 Speaker 4: of competition, probably a huge expansion of private suppliers. Everyone's covered, 286 00:18:53,093 --> 00:18:55,373 Speaker 4: and you can choose whether you go public and private. 287 00:18:55,413 --> 00:19:00,733 Speaker 4: But having this system of a single payer, which is fine, 288 00:19:00,733 --> 00:19:05,333 Speaker 4: but also essentially single supplier that is the big public hospitals, 289 00:19:06,133 --> 00:19:09,333 Speaker 4: you get into all of this mess where them's policies 290 00:19:09,453 --> 00:19:13,493 Speaker 4: on all sorts of matters, not just medical help, but 291 00:19:13,933 --> 00:19:17,973 Speaker 4: all sorts of ideology of the government creeps into the 292 00:19:18,013 --> 00:19:21,093 Speaker 4: supply side, and I think that needs to change. 293 00:19:21,573 --> 00:19:23,973 Speaker 2: I want to back up just a moment, when you 294 00:19:23,973 --> 00:19:27,813 Speaker 2: were mentioning the pandemic and the effect that it had 295 00:19:27,893 --> 00:19:31,733 Speaker 2: in the reaction to it on both the health and 296 00:19:31,853 --> 00:19:37,093 Speaker 2: economic front, what advice would you have because undoubtedly, well 297 00:19:37,133 --> 00:19:40,013 Speaker 2: I'm guessing that you woul't ask for any advice, but 298 00:19:40,093 --> 00:19:43,213 Speaker 2: what advice would you have given the government if they 299 00:19:43,853 --> 00:19:44,733 Speaker 2: if they'd sought it. 300 00:19:45,533 --> 00:19:48,773 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, the government had their chosen advisors. I think 301 00:19:48,813 --> 00:19:53,813 Speaker 4: that led to Durn's downfall because she didn't listen to 302 00:19:53,893 --> 00:19:58,053 Speaker 4: a range of advice. She just had the advisors who 303 00:19:58,133 --> 00:20:03,333 Speaker 4: she loved, and she listened to pretty much everything they 304 00:20:03,453 --> 00:20:04,213 Speaker 4: had to say. 305 00:20:04,853 --> 00:20:07,253 Speaker 3: So this isn't with hindsight. 306 00:20:07,373 --> 00:20:10,253 Speaker 4: By the way, Robertson accuse some of us who do 307 00:20:10,293 --> 00:20:13,693 Speaker 4: commentary on this as just commenting with the benefit of hindsight. 308 00:20:13,813 --> 00:20:19,373 Speaker 4: At the time, I was writing that on the blog 309 00:20:20,093 --> 00:20:23,933 Speaker 4: in the papers that given there was such an extraordinary 310 00:20:24,013 --> 00:20:29,533 Speaker 4: large fiscal expansion of borrowing financed by borrowing, it was 311 00:20:29,613 --> 00:20:34,093 Speaker 4: unnecessary to do such a large monetary expansion as well. 312 00:20:34,373 --> 00:20:36,773 Speaker 3: So at the time my view was that was a 313 00:20:36,813 --> 00:20:37,613 Speaker 3: major mistake. 314 00:20:38,533 --> 00:20:41,613 Speaker 4: Of course, the wage substy scheme, that sort of thing 315 00:20:41,693 --> 00:20:44,253 Speaker 4: was all good. But when you had the wage substy 316 00:20:44,333 --> 00:20:47,093 Speaker 4: scheme in place, why on top of that did you 317 00:20:47,173 --> 00:20:50,413 Speaker 4: need to print fifty billion bucks. So I think it's 318 00:20:50,453 --> 00:20:53,933 Speaker 4: virtually criminal what the Reserve Bank did. We already had 319 00:20:53,973 --> 00:20:57,253 Speaker 4: one of the world's largest fiscal expansions and to put 320 00:20:57,293 --> 00:21:00,813 Speaker 4: on top of that one of the world's largest monetary expansions. 321 00:21:00,853 --> 00:21:04,573 Speaker 4: So at the time, with all the limited power I have, 322 00:21:04,973 --> 00:21:08,493 Speaker 4: which is doing things like your show. I was arguing 323 00:21:08,653 --> 00:21:10,613 Speaker 4: one should not do that monetary expansion. 324 00:21:10,613 --> 00:21:11,173 Speaker 3: What did it do? 325 00:21:11,493 --> 00:21:17,093 Speaker 4: It blew up inflation, and then the Reserve Bank governor said, 326 00:21:17,093 --> 00:21:19,813 Speaker 4: well we have we have to now engineer recession to 327 00:21:19,853 --> 00:21:22,173 Speaker 4: get the inflation I created back down again. 328 00:21:22,493 --> 00:21:24,293 Speaker 3: He actually got that wrong as well. He did an 329 00:21:24,333 --> 00:21:25,133 Speaker 3: engineer recession. 330 00:21:25,213 --> 00:21:28,773 Speaker 4: It looks like he's engineered three recessions, and so he 331 00:21:28,853 --> 00:21:32,133 Speaker 4: threw the country into a cost of living crisis as 332 00:21:32,173 --> 00:21:34,613 Speaker 4: people struggled to pay their mortgages. So I think that 333 00:21:34,693 --> 00:21:37,493 Speaker 4: was a fundamental mistake that was made. 334 00:21:38,173 --> 00:21:39,933 Speaker 2: Do you do shopping as in food? 335 00:21:40,453 --> 00:21:41,893 Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, yeah. 336 00:21:41,973 --> 00:21:47,253 Speaker 2: Were you constantly aware of the increase in the bill 337 00:21:47,293 --> 00:21:49,293 Speaker 2: that you had to pay every time you went shopping? 338 00:21:50,133 --> 00:21:50,213 Speaker 3: Oh? 339 00:21:50,293 --> 00:21:53,253 Speaker 4: Of course, of course. I mean, you know, I have 340 00:21:53,293 --> 00:21:56,973 Speaker 4: three children, of course we can. It's just astronomical. The 341 00:21:58,413 --> 00:22:02,773 Speaker 4: I think our food bill is probably you know, higher 342 00:22:02,813 --> 00:22:07,453 Speaker 4: than the average wage in the in the country. It's 343 00:22:07,573 --> 00:22:11,573 Speaker 4: just just for not nomenal and you know that means, 344 00:22:11,773 --> 00:22:14,253 Speaker 4: you know, to bring up children now just to pay 345 00:22:14,293 --> 00:22:17,693 Speaker 4: the groceries, both parents have to work. You can't you 346 00:22:17,693 --> 00:22:20,173 Speaker 4: can't buy grocery bills in a million years in this 347 00:22:20,213 --> 00:22:23,093 Speaker 4: country with one parent working on the average wage, you 348 00:22:23,813 --> 00:22:28,453 Speaker 4: can't you can't afford food. So of course that was 349 00:22:28,493 --> 00:22:32,053 Speaker 4: a Now on that topic, can you believe it that 350 00:22:32,613 --> 00:22:34,653 Speaker 4: it's in the news every other day that. 351 00:22:36,173 --> 00:22:39,453 Speaker 3: We have this duopoly with the supermarkets? 352 00:22:40,013 --> 00:22:43,933 Speaker 4: So what did Adarn do in her infinite wisdom during 353 00:22:43,933 --> 00:22:54,093 Speaker 4: the lockdowns? He granted the duopoly. The monopoly enshrined in 354 00:22:54,173 --> 00:22:57,333 Speaker 4: law that no one else in the country could sell 355 00:22:57,413 --> 00:23:01,333 Speaker 4: food during the lockdowns, only the two super big supermarket 356 00:23:01,413 --> 00:23:02,213 Speaker 4: chains chain. 357 00:23:02,773 --> 00:23:04,613 Speaker 3: So every small business. 358 00:23:04,813 --> 00:23:08,333 Speaker 4: And grocer got wiped out and that was the law 359 00:23:08,493 --> 00:23:11,853 Speaker 4: of the country. So that was another I think economic 360 00:23:11,893 --> 00:23:18,933 Speaker 4: policy where a Dern and Hopkins and Robertson enshrined the 361 00:23:18,973 --> 00:23:20,813 Speaker 4: power of monopolies in the economy. 362 00:23:20,813 --> 00:23:22,813 Speaker 3: And I still don't think we pulled out of that. 363 00:23:25,773 --> 00:23:28,893 Speaker 2: Do you think that that was just plain ignorance or 364 00:23:28,973 --> 00:23:35,733 Speaker 2: did that did that deploy some shall we say socialist approach? 365 00:23:37,973 --> 00:23:41,973 Speaker 4: Yes, I mean the ideology of socialism was there with 366 00:23:42,133 --> 00:23:46,533 Speaker 4: just command and control essentially it you know, it's called 367 00:23:46,533 --> 00:23:53,093 Speaker 4: an economics command and control regulations that every the idea 368 00:23:53,293 --> 00:23:57,333 Speaker 4: was we can sort everything out through by by command. 369 00:23:58,213 --> 00:24:00,773 Speaker 3: And I think in. 370 00:24:01,093 --> 00:24:04,533 Speaker 4: Dern's head the idea was, well, we listened to Baker 371 00:24:04,533 --> 00:24:06,733 Speaker 4: at Otago. 372 00:24:05,853 --> 00:24:07,453 Speaker 3: Because he said we should lock down. 373 00:24:08,133 --> 00:24:10,093 Speaker 4: The only practical out of doing that, we grant a 374 00:24:10,173 --> 00:24:14,493 Speaker 4: monopoly to the chains. And then, of course, gosh, if 375 00:24:14,493 --> 00:24:17,333 Speaker 4: the supermachor chains have made if people like that have 376 00:24:17,413 --> 00:24:20,613 Speaker 4: made too much money because of our policy, well we'll 377 00:24:20,613 --> 00:24:24,453 Speaker 4: call David Parker and ask him, with mister Pikeaty, how 378 00:24:24,493 --> 00:24:26,733 Speaker 4: to design capital and wealth taxes in the country to 379 00:24:26,773 --> 00:24:28,773 Speaker 4: get the money back. I mean, this is just a 380 00:24:28,813 --> 00:24:35,093 Speaker 4: shambalaquay of conducting, conducting, you know, a country's management. 381 00:24:35,013 --> 00:24:36,533 Speaker 2: Well, shambolic and ignorant. 382 00:24:37,573 --> 00:24:37,933 Speaker 3: Yeah. 383 00:24:38,173 --> 00:24:41,973 Speaker 2: Yeah, I have to slip in here that I did 384 00:24:41,973 --> 00:24:47,973 Speaker 2: some economics, and I'm reluctant to do it because I 385 00:24:48,213 --> 00:24:51,493 Speaker 2: never finished anything. But I did some economics and my favorite, 386 00:24:51,653 --> 00:24:59,253 Speaker 2: my favorite class was comparative economic systems, and it set 387 00:24:59,293 --> 00:25:02,933 Speaker 2: me on a path that ended up with me being 388 00:25:02,973 --> 00:25:08,533 Speaker 2: in the Soviet Union as it still was in January 389 00:25:08,573 --> 00:25:13,013 Speaker 2: of nineteen eighty nine, and I saw firsthand and experience 390 00:25:13,093 --> 00:25:16,893 Speaker 2: firsthand as a guest of Navosity Press, all sorts of 391 00:25:17,053 --> 00:25:28,533 Speaker 2: aspects of life that we avoided, of course, But how 392 00:25:28,573 --> 00:25:32,413 Speaker 2: anybody with the history that socialism has Marxism has I 393 00:25:32,813 --> 00:25:36,373 Speaker 2: just don't know how anyone can be a part of it. 394 00:25:36,373 --> 00:25:40,133 Speaker 2: It's absurd. Now you want to take any issue with that. 395 00:25:41,453 --> 00:25:44,893 Speaker 4: We'll ask a Dern because she still wildly embraces it, 396 00:25:45,333 --> 00:25:49,573 Speaker 4: and of course the Labor Party is wildly embracing it. 397 00:25:49,653 --> 00:25:54,173 Speaker 4: So surprisingly, there was some very strong comments earlier this 398 00:25:54,253 --> 00:25:58,213 Speaker 4: week anti charter school comments. 399 00:25:57,693 --> 00:26:00,533 Speaker 3: By the Labor Shadow education. 400 00:26:02,013 --> 00:26:07,533 Speaker 4: Spokesperson, and it was sort of a vitriolic spewing of 401 00:26:07,613 --> 00:26:14,773 Speaker 4: invector on the idea that privately supplied anything that's privately 402 00:26:14,813 --> 00:26:18,653 Speaker 4: supplied was really a sort of horrible idea, and the idea, 403 00:26:19,133 --> 00:26:22,733 Speaker 4: even though charter schools are publicly funded, the idea that 404 00:26:22,773 --> 00:26:27,053 Speaker 4: private suppliers would run them was just went against everything 405 00:26:27,093 --> 00:26:31,213 Speaker 4: the Labor Party stood for, which is amazing to hear 406 00:26:31,253 --> 00:26:32,973 Speaker 4: that in twenty twenty four. 407 00:26:33,573 --> 00:26:38,893 Speaker 2: Think that you really think it's amazing, Well maybe not. 408 00:26:39,773 --> 00:26:44,333 Speaker 4: I was surprised because that the only way out of 409 00:26:44,973 --> 00:26:48,413 Speaker 4: the mess of not just education but the health system 410 00:26:48,813 --> 00:26:53,013 Speaker 4: is that that kind of model of public funding which 411 00:26:53,093 --> 00:26:58,613 Speaker 4: ensures equity that regardless whether you're or wealthy, whatever, everyone 412 00:26:58,653 --> 00:27:02,853 Speaker 4: can go to a charter school, or regardless of wealth, 413 00:27:02,893 --> 00:27:05,293 Speaker 4: you can go to any medical supplier of your choice. 414 00:27:06,013 --> 00:27:10,173 Speaker 4: But you, of course, to have competition between public and 415 00:27:10,213 --> 00:27:13,133 Speaker 4: private suppliers is a great thing. 416 00:27:13,493 --> 00:27:16,013 Speaker 3: That competition is fantastic. 417 00:27:16,133 --> 00:27:20,253 Speaker 4: So to hear labor coming out anti competition, I find 418 00:27:20,293 --> 00:27:21,333 Speaker 4: I find unbelievable. 419 00:27:22,373 --> 00:27:26,093 Speaker 2: Well, I follow the charter school game for the last 420 00:27:26,133 --> 00:27:29,613 Speaker 2: few years and done a number of interviews around it, 421 00:27:30,453 --> 00:27:34,213 Speaker 2: and it's to me it comes back to the to 422 00:27:34,293 --> 00:27:37,893 Speaker 2: the power of the teachers unions essentially. 423 00:27:38,373 --> 00:27:41,653 Speaker 4: Yes, And I mean what struck me was that labor 424 00:27:41,733 --> 00:27:47,413 Speaker 4: must really really want the education of young Maori to suffer. 425 00:27:47,533 --> 00:27:53,893 Speaker 4: Because President Obama in America, his words were he lauded 426 00:27:54,733 --> 00:27:57,133 Speaker 4: charter schools in America as a beacon of hope for 427 00:27:57,333 --> 00:28:01,933 Speaker 4: young Black American children. And they also were showing great 428 00:28:01,933 --> 00:28:06,853 Speaker 4: results for young Maori children because that model of independence 429 00:28:07,613 --> 00:28:11,613 Speaker 4: and you know, you can design the schools policies with 430 00:28:11,693 --> 00:28:14,533 Speaker 4: more freedom from the state was showing great results. So 431 00:28:14,573 --> 00:28:17,893 Speaker 4: it seems that some level labor really have it in 432 00:28:18,093 --> 00:28:20,173 Speaker 4: for the education of young Mari. 433 00:28:21,373 --> 00:28:24,693 Speaker 2: The subject of infrastructure has had a big play in 434 00:28:24,693 --> 00:28:27,173 Speaker 2: the last few weeks. It was brought home to me 435 00:28:27,213 --> 00:28:30,573 Speaker 2: when I was listening to the radio and heard commentary 436 00:28:30,613 --> 00:28:36,493 Speaker 2: with regard to the necessary machinery for infrastructure, and it's 437 00:28:36,693 --> 00:28:39,973 Speaker 2: basically all left. All the big stuff has left the 438 00:28:39,973 --> 00:28:43,333 Speaker 2: country and getting it back isn't isn't going to be easy. 439 00:28:44,093 --> 00:28:47,253 Speaker 2: How much is that going to hinder the development of 440 00:28:47,613 --> 00:28:52,093 Speaker 2: well the comeback for this and any other government, let 441 00:28:52,093 --> 00:28:52,853 Speaker 2: alone the people. 442 00:28:55,093 --> 00:28:59,973 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, the infrastructure thing has rumbled on, of course for. 443 00:29:01,373 --> 00:29:02,293 Speaker 3: A long time. 444 00:29:03,813 --> 00:29:11,373 Speaker 4: The most important infrastructure is probably the ones of our cities. Surprisingly, 445 00:29:11,453 --> 00:29:16,373 Speaker 4: some infrastructure projects like highways can be more controversial. 446 00:29:16,693 --> 00:29:19,093 Speaker 3: In America, there's this. 447 00:29:19,013 --> 00:29:21,893 Speaker 4: Thing called the highway movement, and they want all these 448 00:29:21,933 --> 00:29:27,173 Speaker 4: interstate highways to be fantastic, and some urban economists have 449 00:29:27,333 --> 00:29:32,253 Speaker 4: been a bit critical of some of that focus. We 450 00:29:32,293 --> 00:29:34,853 Speaker 4: invited the world seating urban economists Dead Glazer out here 451 00:29:34,893 --> 00:29:38,493 Speaker 4: many years ago, and their priority is to get the 452 00:29:38,533 --> 00:29:43,533 Speaker 4: cities right, because the more you have magnificent highways leaving 453 00:29:43,573 --> 00:29:47,373 Speaker 4: the cities, that can be responsible for sprawl, you know, 454 00:29:47,773 --> 00:29:51,653 Speaker 4: miles out of the cities. It can encourage you know, 455 00:29:52,573 --> 00:29:56,773 Speaker 4: less densification. So I think on infrastructure, it's you know, 456 00:29:56,853 --> 00:29:58,533 Speaker 4: the cities are vital. 457 00:29:58,933 --> 00:30:01,253 Speaker 3: You know, Auckland's going towards forty percent of. 458 00:30:02,213 --> 00:30:07,933 Speaker 4: The country's population, and the infrastructure of cities like Auckland. 459 00:30:08,813 --> 00:30:13,493 Speaker 4: Christ Tish really has to be great to otherwise, if 460 00:30:13,893 --> 00:30:19,053 Speaker 4: our big cities fail, the country will fail. So yes, 461 00:30:19,213 --> 00:30:23,413 Speaker 4: that's you know, that debate has rumbled on for many years. 462 00:30:23,333 --> 00:30:26,013 Speaker 3: And I mean, what can I do about it? 463 00:30:26,253 --> 00:30:29,533 Speaker 4: A decade ago we invited the world seeding urban economists. 464 00:30:29,573 --> 00:30:32,493 Speaker 4: He made all of these points, he met all the 465 00:30:32,973 --> 00:30:36,693 Speaker 4: people in government and the council. They ignored every piece 466 00:30:36,733 --> 00:30:40,333 Speaker 4: of advice he gave. He told them a decade ago, 467 00:30:40,453 --> 00:30:44,853 Speaker 4: you've got to introduce toll roads congestion charges. Now what 468 00:30:44,933 --> 00:30:47,893 Speaker 4: ten or twelve years have passed and they're still discussing 469 00:30:47,973 --> 00:30:50,853 Speaker 4: congestion charges and tolls. 470 00:30:51,133 --> 00:30:52,253 Speaker 3: I mean, what more can we do? 471 00:30:52,293 --> 00:30:54,973 Speaker 4: We invite the world's experts out, we sit them in 472 00:30:55,013 --> 00:31:00,053 Speaker 4: front of Labor and National prime ministers, we carry on 473 00:31:00,133 --> 00:31:02,893 Speaker 4: about infrastructure. I used to attend the meetings of the 474 00:31:03,373 --> 00:31:04,293 Speaker 4: NZET Initiative. 475 00:31:04,893 --> 00:31:05,533 Speaker 3: I lobbied. 476 00:31:05,573 --> 00:31:07,813 Speaker 4: I remember when John Key was Prime Minister for more 477 00:31:07,813 --> 00:31:10,733 Speaker 4: of the spin. They all shut me up. They said, 478 00:31:10,773 --> 00:31:12,653 Speaker 4: oh mate, what would you know that? You know, we're 479 00:31:12,653 --> 00:31:15,413 Speaker 4: rebuilding christ Church, so we don't have any money for Auckland. 480 00:31:15,773 --> 00:31:18,533 Speaker 4: I mean this, whether it's National or Labor, I'm just 481 00:31:18,613 --> 00:31:20,373 Speaker 4: I'm just tired of all this bull crap. 482 00:31:20,893 --> 00:31:25,213 Speaker 2: Does that encourage you to think about leaving the country, Oh. 483 00:31:25,333 --> 00:31:25,813 Speaker 3: It doesn't. 484 00:31:25,853 --> 00:31:30,693 Speaker 4: I think it's still a great place to live. Look 485 00:31:30,773 --> 00:31:35,253 Speaker 4: the irony of this country in terms of leaving there 486 00:31:35,333 --> 00:31:39,693 Speaker 4: is a great almost paradox that we're doing badly on productivity, 487 00:31:39,893 --> 00:31:43,213 Speaker 4: but in terms of these quality of life and disease, 488 00:31:43,813 --> 00:31:47,973 Speaker 4: which I take quite seriously. How sort of happy people 489 00:31:48,013 --> 00:31:50,413 Speaker 4: are in countries, New Zealand has typically been in the 490 00:31:50,413 --> 00:31:55,653 Speaker 4: top ten Kiwi's rank is having extremely high levels of 491 00:31:55,853 --> 00:32:00,013 Speaker 4: overall quality of life, and you know, thank god that's 492 00:32:00,053 --> 00:32:03,493 Speaker 4: the case, even though financially we haven't been doing great 493 00:32:04,013 --> 00:32:05,853 Speaker 4: that the overall quality of life is. 494 00:32:05,813 --> 00:32:08,213 Speaker 3: What keeps many of us here. 495 00:32:09,133 --> 00:32:12,413 Speaker 4: And so I think, I think we still have a 496 00:32:12,533 --> 00:32:16,333 Speaker 4: very powerful card to play with that overall quality of life. 497 00:32:16,373 --> 00:32:19,693 Speaker 4: And if and if our cities are made very you know, 498 00:32:19,933 --> 00:32:26,333 Speaker 4: edgy and diverse livabol but also with great opportunities, they're 499 00:32:26,333 --> 00:32:31,133 Speaker 4: a real melting pot of innovation and hubs of entrepreneurship 500 00:32:31,173 --> 00:32:32,973 Speaker 4: that you know, if we can just get that mix 501 00:32:33,133 --> 00:32:37,533 Speaker 4: right with the lifestyle and the proximity to the beaches 502 00:32:37,573 --> 00:32:40,773 Speaker 4: and the mild climate, I mean, we still have extraordinary 503 00:32:40,853 --> 00:32:43,413 Speaker 4: natural assets, So I think I think that is we 504 00:32:43,853 --> 00:32:46,453 Speaker 4: still have reason for hope. 505 00:32:47,213 --> 00:32:51,093 Speaker 2: Well, as somebody said recently, hope isn't the what's the 506 00:32:51,213 --> 00:32:55,053 Speaker 2: term hope? Hope is not a plan anyway, Just speaking 507 00:32:55,053 --> 00:32:58,973 Speaker 2: of people leaving the country, you must know because you teach, 508 00:32:59,813 --> 00:33:04,853 Speaker 2: you must know the number of graduates who are packing 509 00:33:04,893 --> 00:33:06,373 Speaker 2: their bags and leaving the country. 510 00:33:07,973 --> 00:33:09,013 Speaker 3: Yeah, that phenomenal. 511 00:33:09,053 --> 00:33:12,933 Speaker 4: I mean most of the ones who've done well typically 512 00:33:13,053 --> 00:33:15,813 Speaker 4: say they wouldn't apply for a job here in a 513 00:33:15,853 --> 00:33:17,013 Speaker 4: million years, so they're off. 514 00:33:17,733 --> 00:33:20,013 Speaker 3: There is an exodus at that level. 515 00:33:20,693 --> 00:33:22,853 Speaker 4: You know, it's not widely reported in the media sort 516 00:33:22,853 --> 00:33:25,053 Speaker 4: of what's driving part of that because it's not even 517 00:33:25,093 --> 00:33:29,133 Speaker 4: after people have finished training here. There's an unprecedented move 518 00:33:29,173 --> 00:33:34,293 Speaker 4: where people are leaving even after finishing up at school. 519 00:33:35,093 --> 00:33:38,173 Speaker 4: So it's not just posh private schools. But if you 520 00:33:38,253 --> 00:33:41,693 Speaker 4: look at from McLean's College and Auckland rang A Toto College, 521 00:33:42,213 --> 00:33:45,973 Speaker 4: a whole bunch of public and private schools, roughly the 522 00:33:45,973 --> 00:33:50,773 Speaker 4: top twenty students from when they're seven eighteen years old 523 00:33:51,133 --> 00:33:53,373 Speaker 4: are leaving the country at eighteen and that's a very 524 00:33:53,413 --> 00:33:55,213 Speaker 4: young age and they'll probably never come back. 525 00:33:56,293 --> 00:33:57,133 Speaker 3: And so. 526 00:33:58,613 --> 00:34:03,373 Speaker 4: The trend is for increasingly star performers at young ages 527 00:34:03,413 --> 00:34:03,693 Speaker 4: to go. 528 00:34:04,053 --> 00:34:05,453 Speaker 3: One of the reasons for that is. 529 00:34:05,493 --> 00:34:11,013 Speaker 4: I think in the name of ecality, even if you 530 00:34:11,053 --> 00:34:14,733 Speaker 4: do amazingly at school here, it doesn't really help you 531 00:34:15,413 --> 00:34:18,933 Speaker 4: because you can be a star student that everyone just 532 00:34:19,013 --> 00:34:23,373 Speaker 4: goes to the local training college, the local university. Everyone 533 00:34:23,453 --> 00:34:27,533 Speaker 4: just piles into Victoria or Otago Auckland. Whether you've been 534 00:34:27,613 --> 00:34:33,053 Speaker 4: top of your year or Ducks, whether you're a star athlete, whatever, you. 535 00:34:33,053 --> 00:34:34,493 Speaker 3: All just go to the same place. 536 00:34:34,693 --> 00:34:38,013 Speaker 4: The whole point of working hard at school in nearly 537 00:34:38,133 --> 00:34:41,813 Speaker 4: every country, from China to India to England to France 538 00:34:41,893 --> 00:34:44,813 Speaker 4: the United States, is it sets you up to go 539 00:34:45,013 --> 00:34:48,533 Speaker 4: to an amazing college. If you're a sports star in 540 00:34:48,613 --> 00:34:52,813 Speaker 4: the US, you get into Stanford because you're an amazing swimmer. 541 00:34:53,413 --> 00:34:58,053 Speaker 4: That's the game. So that's what incentivizes people here. You 542 00:34:58,133 --> 00:35:01,173 Speaker 4: bust your ass at school, you do great, and then 543 00:35:01,213 --> 00:35:03,813 Speaker 4: in the name of egoitarianism, oh, let's just. 544 00:35:05,213 --> 00:35:06,573 Speaker 3: Pretend that never happened. 545 00:35:06,693 --> 00:35:10,693 Speaker 4: Pretend you didn't become a sports star or an academic star. 546 00:35:11,413 --> 00:35:13,493 Speaker 4: You know, and if you did, it's probably because you're 547 00:35:13,533 --> 00:35:16,853 Speaker 4: from a privileged background. So screw you, and you can 548 00:35:16,893 --> 00:35:20,853 Speaker 4: all start the same at university again. Well that I 549 00:35:20,893 --> 00:35:25,253 Speaker 4: think that's creating a massive brain grain for the country 550 00:35:25,693 --> 00:35:29,653 Speaker 4: because these kids are you know, I think everyone knows 551 00:35:29,773 --> 00:35:33,093 Speaker 4: the truth. Now, these are the Ivy League schools in America. 552 00:35:33,173 --> 00:35:37,933 Speaker 4: Universities around the world are targeting our star athletes, our 553 00:35:37,973 --> 00:35:41,373 Speaker 4: star performances, and they're putting them on full scholarships. So 554 00:35:41,453 --> 00:35:44,053 Speaker 4: this isn't happening when they're older. This is happening at eighteen. 555 00:35:44,093 --> 00:35:46,533 Speaker 4: We're losing the cream of the country at eighteen years old. 556 00:35:46,533 --> 00:35:50,893 Speaker 2: We are we losing many students to elite universities in 557 00:35:50,933 --> 00:35:53,093 Speaker 2: the States. Because I've got to carry I've got it. 558 00:35:53,173 --> 00:35:54,533 Speaker 2: Are we losing many. 559 00:35:55,693 --> 00:35:59,733 Speaker 4: Well, I can tell you because the schools I see 560 00:35:59,893 --> 00:36:03,253 Speaker 4: are from a range of schools. Now, when they send 561 00:36:03,333 --> 00:36:08,173 Speaker 4: their reports, they list down the number of students who 562 00:36:08,573 --> 00:36:12,333 Speaker 4: are going to overseas universities, and of the top schools 563 00:36:12,373 --> 00:36:15,773 Speaker 4: in Auckland, you'll see roughly the top ten twenty students, 564 00:36:15,813 --> 00:36:18,173 Speaker 4: nearly all of them are going to overseas universities. 565 00:36:18,493 --> 00:36:21,853 Speaker 2: See, I've I've got to count you a little, and 566 00:36:21,893 --> 00:36:26,373 Speaker 2: I'll be interested in your reaction because there is a 567 00:36:26,533 --> 00:36:32,813 Speaker 2: change in America that elite colleges are not worth going 568 00:36:32,853 --> 00:36:36,253 Speaker 2: to now. I was reading something just a few days ago, 569 00:36:36,693 --> 00:36:40,613 Speaker 2: and let me get this. Right to go to Yale, 570 00:36:40,933 --> 00:36:45,413 Speaker 2: for instance, which will cost you something like six hundred 571 00:36:45,413 --> 00:36:49,093 Speaker 2: and something on thousand dollars, take that debt, if you've 572 00:36:49,093 --> 00:36:52,613 Speaker 2: got to borrow the money, take that debt and work 573 00:36:52,653 --> 00:36:56,013 Speaker 2: out how much of your life is going to be 574 00:36:56,013 --> 00:37:02,053 Speaker 2: spent repaying that There is a swing away, is what 575 00:37:02,093 --> 00:37:06,213 Speaker 2: I'm suggesting from what I've seen in the last few months, 576 00:37:06,573 --> 00:37:10,573 Speaker 2: that the kids are kids and their parents recognizing that 577 00:37:10,613 --> 00:37:14,013 Speaker 2: the elite universities are now a waste of money because 578 00:37:14,053 --> 00:37:18,373 Speaker 2: of their DEI and and all the other alphabet soups. 579 00:37:19,493 --> 00:37:23,613 Speaker 4: Well, the key we kids this top group, this elite group, 580 00:37:24,373 --> 00:37:26,653 Speaker 4: which you know, by the way, for a small country 581 00:37:26,853 --> 00:37:31,173 Speaker 4: like us, it's devastating. They're they're being offered full scholarships. 582 00:37:31,933 --> 00:37:37,213 Speaker 4: They're not paying anything. So if you're a top tennis player, 583 00:37:37,373 --> 00:37:41,853 Speaker 4: swimmer row, you know that they are coming out and 584 00:37:41,893 --> 00:37:45,413 Speaker 4: fully funding you. So I don't think many would turn 585 00:37:45,493 --> 00:37:48,093 Speaker 4: down a full you know, in fact, they've been given 586 00:37:48,173 --> 00:37:50,453 Speaker 4: six hundred thousand by the likes of Yale. 587 00:37:51,133 --> 00:37:52,973 Speaker 2: I wouldn't I would, I wouldn't argue with you on 588 00:37:53,013 --> 00:37:55,613 Speaker 2: that at all. It's it's just it's the home team 589 00:37:55,893 --> 00:38:00,173 Speaker 2: that seems to be seems to be reacting anyway. 590 00:38:00,373 --> 00:38:03,493 Speaker 4: By the way, By the way, a large group, the majority, 591 00:38:03,493 --> 00:38:08,413 Speaker 4: are piling into the Australian universities, so that's sort of 592 00:38:08,413 --> 00:38:09,373 Speaker 4: a well known fact. 593 00:38:09,453 --> 00:38:12,293 Speaker 3: They're piling into Melbourne and Sydney. 594 00:38:12,733 --> 00:38:16,893 Speaker 4: Melbourne's got a world sort of roughly top ten ranked university, 595 00:38:16,893 --> 00:38:18,693 Speaker 4: I don't know, it's sort of sixteenth in the world 596 00:38:18,813 --> 00:38:24,213 Speaker 4: or something, and they've become enormously attractive to chew students. 597 00:38:24,253 --> 00:38:26,293 Speaker 4: I think Chris Suckson's daughter, he was in the paper 598 00:38:26,453 --> 00:38:30,933 Speaker 4: going to her graduation in Melbourne. That's a very large 599 00:38:30,973 --> 00:38:31,693 Speaker 4: part of the scene. 600 00:38:31,773 --> 00:38:38,893 Speaker 2: Now interesting because there was another little home event. One 601 00:38:38,933 --> 00:38:41,893 Speaker 2: of my boys we went in twenty ten to when 602 00:38:41,933 --> 00:38:45,853 Speaker 2: he was stort school. At the end, we went to Melbourne, 603 00:38:46,893 --> 00:38:54,453 Speaker 2: we did interviews, he was accepted into law and he 604 00:38:54,573 --> 00:38:58,133 Speaker 2: was accepted into the only house that he wanted to 605 00:38:58,173 --> 00:39:02,253 Speaker 2: stay in to live in color College, and we were 606 00:39:02,333 --> 00:39:05,653 Speaker 2: and looked at it. It was stunning. But in the 607 00:39:05,773 --> 00:39:08,933 Speaker 2: end he decided to go to a target. Hm hmm. 608 00:39:09,733 --> 00:39:11,133 Speaker 2: I think it had I think it had as much 609 00:39:11,133 --> 00:39:12,493 Speaker 2: to do with mates as. 610 00:39:13,333 --> 00:39:13,733 Speaker 3: He might have. 611 00:39:13,813 --> 00:39:15,573 Speaker 4: He might have made he might have made a mistake. 612 00:39:15,773 --> 00:39:19,253 Speaker 4: I mean, I call Otago the party university. So I 613 00:39:19,333 --> 00:39:20,573 Speaker 4: trust that wasn't his motive. 614 00:39:20,773 --> 00:39:24,373 Speaker 2: No I can. I can tell you it wasn't, But 615 00:39:24,413 --> 00:39:28,893 Speaker 2: that doesn't mean he didn't fringe on it. Look expanding 616 00:39:28,933 --> 00:39:33,933 Speaker 2: some of the some of the matters that we've already discussed. Infrastructure, 617 00:39:33,973 --> 00:39:37,253 Speaker 2: for instance, the state of the of the biggest city 618 00:39:37,253 --> 00:39:42,613 Speaker 2: in the country is still disastrous, still appalling. I've forgotten 619 00:39:42,653 --> 00:39:46,813 Speaker 2: now how many more years the underground is going to take. 620 00:39:47,813 --> 00:39:51,053 Speaker 2: I've also forgotten what the latest pricing is. All I 621 00:39:51,093 --> 00:39:54,813 Speaker 2: know is that, as expected from the beginning, it's blown 622 00:39:54,853 --> 00:39:58,413 Speaker 2: out of all proportioned to what it was going to 623 00:39:58,453 --> 00:40:02,333 Speaker 2: cost in the first place. Anybody with any vision an 624 00:40:02,453 --> 00:40:07,613 Speaker 2: experience watching the cost of large scale infrastructure could have 625 00:40:07,733 --> 00:40:12,173 Speaker 2: could have told that. But it has anyway. They they're 626 00:40:12,213 --> 00:40:15,813 Speaker 2: still in a state of flux. They've ruined Queen Street, 627 00:40:16,293 --> 00:40:21,053 Speaker 2: They've ruined Custom Street and Key Street. They've they've screwed 628 00:40:21,173 --> 00:40:26,293 Speaker 2: up just about everything and wild there's been a bit 629 00:40:26,293 --> 00:40:30,693 Speaker 2: of a reprise for Smith and Coey. The big historic 630 00:40:30,773 --> 00:40:36,013 Speaker 2: store is no more and people are not even wanting 631 00:40:36,053 --> 00:40:38,693 Speaker 2: to live in the city now. So where does that where? 632 00:40:38,733 --> 00:40:41,893 Speaker 2: Does that leave us with regard to our discussion. Let 633 00:40:41,933 --> 00:40:47,453 Speaker 2: me make a suggestion. Auckland Transport, which I've termed the 634 00:40:47,493 --> 00:40:51,493 Speaker 2: biggest example of the administrative state in this country, has 635 00:40:51,693 --> 00:40:56,813 Speaker 2: has contributed to the wreck that Auckland CBD has become. 636 00:40:57,413 --> 00:41:00,613 Speaker 2: And they're still not overdoing it. They still want more. 637 00:41:01,373 --> 00:41:06,573 Speaker 4: You say, yeah, look, you know it's it's it's just 638 00:41:06,693 --> 00:41:11,253 Speaker 4: leaves your speechless. The Empire State Building, by the way, 639 00:41:12,133 --> 00:41:14,933 Speaker 4: from before the spot that was in the nineteen twenties 640 00:41:14,933 --> 00:41:19,653 Speaker 4: in America, from before the site even the foundations. 641 00:41:18,973 --> 00:41:23,493 Speaker 3: Were dug, it was just flat land. From the time the. 642 00:41:24,973 --> 00:41:27,893 Speaker 4: Starting date where the foundations were dug to the opening 643 00:41:28,213 --> 00:41:30,613 Speaker 4: of the Empire State Building is a completed building. 644 00:41:30,973 --> 00:41:33,253 Speaker 3: Do you know how that take a guess? How long 645 00:41:33,373 --> 00:41:33,533 Speaker 3: was that? 646 00:41:35,773 --> 00:41:36,773 Speaker 2: Three years? 647 00:41:37,573 --> 00:41:38,573 Speaker 3: Fifteen months? 648 00:41:39,773 --> 00:41:41,493 Speaker 2: I knew it was now, but I didn't realize it 649 00:41:41,533 --> 00:41:41,933 Speaker 2: that quick. 650 00:41:42,053 --> 00:41:42,333 Speaker 3: Yeah. 651 00:41:42,493 --> 00:41:46,773 Speaker 4: So then you take a look at lovely, our lovely 652 00:41:46,813 --> 00:41:50,733 Speaker 4: Fletcher Building putting up the Convention Center, which is about 653 00:41:50,773 --> 00:41:53,493 Speaker 4: one percent zero point one percent the size of the 654 00:41:53,493 --> 00:41:57,813 Speaker 4: Empire State Building coming up for what ten years, coming 655 00:41:57,893 --> 00:42:00,933 Speaker 4: up for ten years. Fletchers can't even put up a 656 00:42:01,013 --> 00:42:04,333 Speaker 4: tiny little building in ten years. And then they blame 657 00:42:04,373 --> 00:42:07,813 Speaker 4: a fire, and everyone blames everyone, and it just descends 658 00:42:07,893 --> 00:42:11,173 Speaker 4: into the usual blame game of the leaky home crisis 659 00:42:11,213 --> 00:42:15,773 Speaker 4: and god knows what so's It's a disgrace, isn't it. 660 00:42:15,813 --> 00:42:21,373 Speaker 4: And Auckland Transport, I mean, what an organization. Obviously in 661 00:42:21,413 --> 00:42:23,813 Speaker 4: its current form it should be disbanded. The mirror is 662 00:42:23,893 --> 00:42:28,773 Speaker 4: right via the whole board. But the catch crow of 663 00:42:28,813 --> 00:42:32,893 Speaker 4: the American Revolution was no taxation without representation. 664 00:42:33,933 --> 00:42:35,253 Speaker 3: So where does it? 665 00:42:35,373 --> 00:42:39,013 Speaker 4: Organ Transport get its money from our taxes? But we're 666 00:42:39,053 --> 00:42:41,973 Speaker 4: not represented by it. It's not responsive to what the 667 00:42:42,053 --> 00:42:45,253 Speaker 4: people want. We all keepe its guts. It's got an 668 00:42:45,293 --> 00:42:49,253 Speaker 4: approval rating of like negative one hundred, and the whole 669 00:42:49,293 --> 00:42:52,853 Speaker 4: thing should go. So either it's put more directly under 670 00:42:52,893 --> 00:42:56,453 Speaker 4: the control, directly under the control of the mayor, the 671 00:42:56,453 --> 00:43:01,413 Speaker 4: council or the minister, and emergency action is taken. You know, 672 00:43:01,533 --> 00:43:07,333 Speaker 4: maybe there is some reason for optimism. Although people critique 673 00:43:07,613 --> 00:43:10,813 Speaker 4: Chris lux And for being a CEO and knowing more 674 00:43:10,853 --> 00:43:14,293 Speaker 4: about sort of management maybe than governing a country, maybe 675 00:43:14,893 --> 00:43:17,053 Speaker 4: it's a good thing. Maybe if he can go through 676 00:43:17,093 --> 00:43:21,013 Speaker 4: all these organizations with a fine tooth comb, get rid 677 00:43:21,053 --> 00:43:25,013 Speaker 4: of the boards. You know, they've done that in the 678 00:43:25,653 --> 00:43:28,253 Speaker 4: health end Z and he can look at the way 679 00:43:28,373 --> 00:43:31,093 Speaker 4: all of these things are running like divisions of a company, 680 00:43:31,173 --> 00:43:33,653 Speaker 4: and he can get things running more efficiently and the 681 00:43:33,693 --> 00:43:35,093 Speaker 4: reporting lines changed. 682 00:43:36,053 --> 00:43:39,133 Speaker 3: Maybe, you know, he could prove to be a very 683 00:43:39,133 --> 00:43:39,773 Speaker 3: good leader. 684 00:43:40,573 --> 00:43:43,093 Speaker 4: Maybe that is what the country does need, are some 685 00:43:43,893 --> 00:43:49,013 Speaker 4: you know, competent manager going through the shambles of these organizations. 686 00:43:49,053 --> 00:43:51,933 Speaker 4: If you look at the board of Auckland Transport, a 687 00:43:51,933 --> 00:43:54,013 Speaker 4: lot of them seem to be showing off saying we're 688 00:43:54,053 --> 00:43:56,533 Speaker 4: on the boards of ten other companies and directors. 689 00:43:56,573 --> 00:43:57,333 Speaker 3: I mean, what is this? 690 00:43:57,933 --> 00:44:01,413 Speaker 4: What is this old style kei we game where you know, 691 00:44:01,573 --> 00:44:04,453 Speaker 4: at cocktail parties and social scenes you say, oh, I'm 692 00:44:04,493 --> 00:44:06,933 Speaker 4: on the board of ten companies. Well, obviously they don't 693 00:44:06,973 --> 00:44:09,373 Speaker 4: have time for any one of them. It's sort of 694 00:44:09,453 --> 00:44:13,373 Speaker 4: a social game in this country to be on these boards. 695 00:44:13,373 --> 00:44:15,853 Speaker 4: And then you take twenty thirty forty fifty thousand for 696 00:44:15,893 --> 00:44:18,093 Speaker 4: each board, and when you multiply it by ten boards, 697 00:44:18,133 --> 00:44:20,573 Speaker 4: you're on five hundred thousand dollars a year for doing nothing. 698 00:44:21,213 --> 00:44:24,293 Speaker 4: So I think there needs to be a really a 699 00:44:24,333 --> 00:44:28,293 Speaker 4: real change in the way that Fletcher's Boards, by the way, 700 00:44:28,373 --> 00:44:31,413 Speaker 4: is no better Fletcher Building so there needs to be 701 00:44:31,453 --> 00:44:34,173 Speaker 4: a change in the way that the governance has done 702 00:44:34,293 --> 00:44:37,653 Speaker 4: and let's trust that Luxon will take aim at all 703 00:44:37,693 --> 00:44:40,053 Speaker 4: these places and sort them out in the next couple 704 00:44:40,093 --> 00:44:40,413 Speaker 4: of years. 705 00:44:40,453 --> 00:44:42,493 Speaker 2: All right, off the back of people leaving the country, 706 00:44:42,533 --> 00:44:47,853 Speaker 2: have got the have we got the intellect left behind 707 00:44:48,053 --> 00:44:50,333 Speaker 2: who can achieve the things that you're talking of. 708 00:44:52,053 --> 00:44:54,093 Speaker 4: Well, we've got to fall back on this fact that 709 00:44:54,173 --> 00:44:56,213 Speaker 4: we were in the top ten in the world in 710 00:44:56,333 --> 00:45:00,493 Speaker 4: quality of life, and so we've got that to back 711 00:45:00,573 --> 00:45:04,253 Speaker 4: us up. It's promoting I think, you know, in the 712 00:45:04,253 --> 00:45:05,493 Speaker 4: famous words of John F. 713 00:45:05,573 --> 00:45:07,453 Speaker 3: Kennedy, you know, a new generation. 714 00:45:07,613 --> 00:45:10,573 Speaker 4: We've got to take some risks and bets on the 715 00:45:10,653 --> 00:45:15,573 Speaker 4: new talent coming through and you know, put them in positions, 716 00:45:15,573 --> 00:45:19,133 Speaker 4: often of power, and get the best offer someone who 717 00:45:19,253 --> 00:45:22,373 Speaker 4: might be thinking of leaving the country the top position 718 00:45:22,653 --> 00:45:26,293 Speaker 4: to sort out these sorts of these sorts of places, 719 00:45:26,293 --> 00:45:30,693 Speaker 4: not the usual boring suspects of you know, there's a 720 00:45:30,813 --> 00:45:33,333 Speaker 4: chairman of one of New Zealand's largest public companies that 721 00:45:33,413 --> 00:45:35,533 Speaker 4: I bought a product from. I can't name his name 722 00:45:35,653 --> 00:45:38,693 Speaker 4: or you get sued, but it broke and they blame 723 00:45:38,773 --> 00:45:41,693 Speaker 4: me for it. And I went to cirk and after 724 00:45:41,733 --> 00:45:43,453 Speaker 4: a month or two I got in touch with the 725 00:45:43,533 --> 00:45:48,813 Speaker 4: chairman of this major public company and virtually he'specially uncontactable. 726 00:45:48,893 --> 00:45:51,493 Speaker 4: And then I discovered where he's living. He's living in Wanaka, 727 00:45:51,613 --> 00:45:55,413 Speaker 4: for God's sake, skiing half the day, barting around. I mean, 728 00:45:55,693 --> 00:45:58,733 Speaker 4: is this the new Zealand? We want this old style 729 00:45:58,853 --> 00:46:02,053 Speaker 4: thing where you're on the boards of twenty companies. Nothing's 730 00:46:02,133 --> 00:46:07,213 Speaker 4: running properly, you're basing yourself online and Wanaka. I think 731 00:46:07,213 --> 00:46:10,293 Speaker 4: there does need an added hudent culture shift and let's 732 00:46:10,293 --> 00:46:13,133 Speaker 4: trust that Chris Hucksen will try to sort it out. 733 00:46:13,973 --> 00:46:17,253 Speaker 2: Watch this space very carefully. There's a couple of things 734 00:46:17,253 --> 00:46:19,133 Speaker 2: that I want to I want to spring on you 735 00:46:20,853 --> 00:46:23,733 Speaker 2: and if it's if it's not your field, then just 736 00:46:23,973 --> 00:46:27,013 Speaker 2: say so. But I'm first, first of all intrigued with 737 00:46:28,253 --> 00:46:31,373 Speaker 2: what your feelings might be about artificial intelligence. 738 00:46:33,933 --> 00:46:39,853 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, my feelings are that it is is probably 739 00:46:39,853 --> 00:46:41,533 Speaker 4: going to be a revolutionary technology. 740 00:46:41,773 --> 00:46:43,293 Speaker 3: I'll tell you my sources for this. 741 00:46:45,173 --> 00:46:48,413 Speaker 4: I met about six or seven years ago Shane leg 742 00:46:49,053 --> 00:46:52,693 Speaker 4: who's a key we born and rot Rua who's in 743 00:46:52,813 --> 00:46:57,533 Speaker 4: charge of Google's worldwide efforts to. 744 00:46:59,373 --> 00:47:00,973 Speaker 3: Advance artificial intelligence. 745 00:47:01,013 --> 00:47:05,213 Speaker 4: And Shane Legg's company, deep Mind was really the company 746 00:47:05,213 --> 00:47:09,133 Speaker 4: that started the AI revolution, so remarkable that we have 747 00:47:09,173 --> 00:47:12,973 Speaker 4: a kiwi. He sold that to Google one hundred million pounds. 748 00:47:13,653 --> 00:47:16,613 Speaker 4: It was backed by Peter Teal, who's a New Zealand citizen. 749 00:47:16,893 --> 00:47:19,893 Speaker 4: He was the first investor. So leg is part of 750 00:47:19,933 --> 00:47:24,373 Speaker 4: that musk sort of Teal group. He's a classic case 751 00:47:24,453 --> 00:47:28,293 Speaker 4: of a talented kiwi who is not returning to the 752 00:47:28,333 --> 00:47:33,693 Speaker 4: country and is based in London. But obviously he's no 753 00:47:33,853 --> 00:47:40,533 Speaker 4: fool and he's absolutely convinced that this is a revolutionary technology, which, ironically, 754 00:47:40,573 --> 00:47:43,733 Speaker 4: going back to your productivity issue, if it is a 755 00:47:43,773 --> 00:47:46,973 Speaker 4: lot of those issue issues could melt away to the 756 00:47:47,053 --> 00:47:51,893 Speaker 4: extent it transforms our lives. The other point of view, 757 00:47:51,893 --> 00:47:53,573 Speaker 4: there is a counterpoint of view. I have a friend, 758 00:47:53,653 --> 00:47:56,173 Speaker 4: James Lowry, who was sort of another example of our 759 00:47:56,213 --> 00:47:59,053 Speaker 4: brain drain. He was ducks of his school all the 760 00:47:59,053 --> 00:48:02,173 Speaker 4: way through New Zealand and then he left. He lives 761 00:48:02,173 --> 00:48:06,373 Speaker 4: in New York, also working for Google, and I asked 762 00:48:06,453 --> 00:48:09,293 Speaker 4: him about this question. He comes out here a lot. 763 00:48:10,013 --> 00:48:12,733 Speaker 4: He was a bit more skeptical. He said that many 764 00:48:12,773 --> 00:48:15,213 Speaker 4: people are using it more as a toy. He used 765 00:48:15,213 --> 00:48:18,493 Speaker 4: the word toy to describe it. And it's still yet 766 00:48:18,533 --> 00:48:23,493 Speaker 4: to prove its sort of practical applicability. And I see 767 00:48:23,493 --> 00:48:26,133 Speaker 4: a certain resonance with what James Srry is saying that 768 00:48:26,253 --> 00:48:28,013 Speaker 4: you know, many people are saying, oh, isn't it cool 769 00:48:28,053 --> 00:48:31,253 Speaker 4: what AI can do? But it's a bit has that aspect. 770 00:48:31,413 --> 00:48:33,533 Speaker 4: Isn't it fun? It's like a game, It's like a toy. 771 00:48:34,253 --> 00:48:38,093 Speaker 4: So you know you've got shame leg and this other 772 00:48:38,133 --> 00:48:41,973 Speaker 4: point of view, but certainly it's a shame New Zealand 773 00:48:41,973 --> 00:48:45,573 Speaker 4: can't get more involved in this technology through people like 774 00:48:47,573 --> 00:48:50,653 Speaker 4: Shame and also Peter tal But of course the christ 775 00:48:50,773 --> 00:48:53,373 Speaker 4: Church judge went and told Eel that she didn't want 776 00:48:53,373 --> 00:48:56,093 Speaker 4: to building houses in the South Island and to you. 777 00:48:56,053 --> 00:48:59,133 Speaker 3: Know, go jump in Lake Wanaka. And you know what 778 00:48:59,253 --> 00:49:00,133 Speaker 3: a jerk he want. 779 00:49:00,053 --> 00:49:02,933 Speaker 4: For trying to build the most environmentally friendly house in 780 00:49:02,933 --> 00:49:05,013 Speaker 4: the South Island. So being a libertarian, I don't think 781 00:49:05,053 --> 00:49:07,773 Speaker 4: he'll spend much time here. So good on the christ 782 00:49:07,893 --> 00:49:11,613 Speaker 4: Church much he decided to you know, reject his house. 783 00:49:12,093 --> 00:49:16,533 Speaker 2: Well there's another matter we could have discussed. But activist 784 00:49:16,693 --> 00:49:23,933 Speaker 2: activist judges, I want to just counter you gently with 785 00:49:24,093 --> 00:49:28,053 Speaker 2: something I read this morning. We continually hear from globalists 786 00:49:28,053 --> 00:49:31,093 Speaker 2: at the World Economic Forum and other elitist institutions that 787 00:49:31,733 --> 00:49:36,533 Speaker 2: AI is the catalyst for the Fourth Industrial Revolution, a 788 00:49:36,653 --> 00:49:41,173 Speaker 2: technological singularity that will supposedly change every aspect of our 789 00:49:41,173 --> 00:49:44,213 Speaker 2: society forever. I keep waiting for the moment that AI 790 00:49:44,373 --> 00:49:47,493 Speaker 2: does something significant in terms of advancing human knowledge or 791 00:49:47,493 --> 00:49:51,133 Speaker 2: making our lives better. The moment never comes. In fact, 792 00:49:51,173 --> 00:49:54,933 Speaker 2: the globalists keep moving the goldpost for what AI really is. 793 00:49:56,053 --> 00:50:00,413 Speaker 2: I would note that the w e f zalots like 794 00:50:01,573 --> 00:50:05,773 Speaker 2: Juvel Harari talk about AI like it is the rise 795 00:50:05,973 --> 00:50:12,133 Speaker 2: of an all powerful deity. Yet Harari has also recently 796 00:50:12,173 --> 00:50:18,373 Speaker 2: downplayed AI as a sentient intelligence. He argues that it 797 00:50:18,413 --> 00:50:21,693 Speaker 2: does not need to achieve self awareness or consciousness in 798 00:50:21,773 --> 00:50:25,373 Speaker 2: order to be considered a super super being or living entity. 799 00:50:25,653 --> 00:50:28,733 Speaker 2: He even suggests that the popular image of a terminator 800 00:50:28,853 --> 00:50:33,693 Speaker 2: like AI with individual agency and desire is not a 801 00:50:33,973 --> 00:50:39,693 Speaker 2: legitimate expectation. In other words, AI as it stands today 802 00:50:39,853 --> 00:50:43,253 Speaker 2: is nothing more than a mindless algorithm, and thus it 803 00:50:43,293 --> 00:50:47,333 Speaker 2: is not AI. He goes on for a few pages, 804 00:50:48,813 --> 00:50:49,653 Speaker 2: what do you think. 805 00:50:50,973 --> 00:50:56,293 Speaker 4: Well, there is a debate about this, of course, going around, 806 00:50:57,293 --> 00:51:01,453 Speaker 4: and because it's so new, it is still a debate. 807 00:51:02,173 --> 00:51:05,013 Speaker 4: Of course, we don't know, at least if you fall 808 00:51:05,053 --> 00:51:07,373 Speaker 4: back on we fall back on our economics. 809 00:51:07,693 --> 00:51:11,973 Speaker 3: It's not the first time there's been the possibility of 810 00:51:11,973 --> 00:51:14,333 Speaker 3: a huge change in technology. 811 00:51:14,373 --> 00:51:17,333 Speaker 4: Because one of the most studied episodes in the subject 812 00:51:17,373 --> 00:51:21,573 Speaker 4: of the Industrial Revolution in England and you know, in 813 00:51:21,573 --> 00:51:27,013 Speaker 4: the seventeenth eighteenth century, and that did transform life, you know, 814 00:51:27,173 --> 00:51:31,373 Speaker 4: so that the Industrial Age is obviously a big part 815 00:51:31,373 --> 00:51:35,373 Speaker 4: of our history. It turned Britain into the world's leading 816 00:51:35,413 --> 00:51:39,013 Speaker 4: superpower of its time. That was really responsible for the 817 00:51:39,013 --> 00:51:43,573 Speaker 4: British Empire. It had the largest GDP in the world, 818 00:51:43,693 --> 00:51:48,413 Speaker 4: and the steam engine and all those inventions did transform 819 00:51:48,533 --> 00:51:54,813 Speaker 4: a human life. So these things do happen, and you know, 820 00:51:55,013 --> 00:51:58,333 Speaker 4: if you listen to I've listened to. My source is 821 00:51:58,373 --> 00:52:01,573 Speaker 4: Shane leg who I spoke to a number of years ago, 822 00:52:01,893 --> 00:52:08,333 Speaker 4: and he's convinced it amounts to a revolution. He's absolutely convinced. 823 00:52:08,413 --> 00:52:11,293 Speaker 4: And he there's a book called Soulful Machines. I think 824 00:52:11,333 --> 00:52:12,933 Speaker 4: on the topic of what you were saying of can 825 00:52:12,973 --> 00:52:14,093 Speaker 4: these machines. 826 00:52:13,733 --> 00:52:14,773 Speaker 3: Have a soul? 827 00:52:15,333 --> 00:52:17,813 Speaker 4: There is a I'll try to fall back on the 828 00:52:17,853 --> 00:52:22,453 Speaker 4: debate because heck, you know, it's not my field of 829 00:52:22,533 --> 00:52:26,413 Speaker 4: expertise on specifically a bit more the economic consequences. 830 00:52:26,453 --> 00:52:30,253 Speaker 3: There's a chap that in America who is. 831 00:52:30,213 --> 00:52:34,533 Speaker 4: Sort of the big name economist works in this field 832 00:52:34,573 --> 00:52:41,293 Speaker 4: of technological progress and change, and a guy Darren as Moglin's. 833 00:52:41,413 --> 00:52:42,573 Speaker 3: He says he's. 834 00:52:42,413 --> 00:52:44,813 Speaker 4: Concerned about AI because he said they seem to be 835 00:52:44,853 --> 00:52:47,813 Speaker 4: designing it to replicate. 836 00:52:47,213 --> 00:52:48,253 Speaker 3: What humans do. 837 00:52:49,053 --> 00:52:51,813 Speaker 4: And he says, the thing is technology should really be 838 00:52:52,133 --> 00:52:56,093 Speaker 4: supporting what we do. It should be making human life 839 00:52:56,973 --> 00:53:01,413 Speaker 4: better and enabling humans to be more productive. And when 840 00:53:01,533 --> 00:53:04,333 Speaker 4: humans work with machines that make them more productive, that 841 00:53:04,413 --> 00:53:08,213 Speaker 4: leads to higher wages because your your labor productivity goes 842 00:53:08,413 --> 00:53:11,973 Speaker 4: up the more capital you're working with. It enhances what 843 00:53:12,013 --> 00:53:14,533 Speaker 4: you can do as a human. And he doesn't like 844 00:53:14,573 --> 00:53:17,213 Speaker 4: the idea that sort of the AI people are trying 845 00:53:17,253 --> 00:53:21,933 Speaker 4: to not complement what humans do but substitute for them, 846 00:53:22,053 --> 00:53:25,493 Speaker 4: almost like say, you know, sucked in, you're a human, 847 00:53:25,573 --> 00:53:29,853 Speaker 4: but here this machine can talk better than you, write 848 00:53:29,853 --> 00:53:33,613 Speaker 4: better than you, and even the robots, like the Terminator, 849 00:53:33,693 --> 00:53:36,573 Speaker 4: they look like you. And he's sort of a bit disturbed, 850 00:53:36,653 --> 00:53:40,213 Speaker 4: like what's going on where they're trying to copy and 851 00:53:40,333 --> 00:53:45,133 Speaker 4: substitute for what humans do, which could make more humans unemployed. 852 00:53:45,533 --> 00:53:50,373 Speaker 4: We asked another economist out about eight years ago called 853 00:53:50,453 --> 00:53:54,533 Speaker 4: Larry Popley cough from America. And you may think it's 854 00:53:54,573 --> 00:53:57,413 Speaker 4: a bit funny, but he made this comment on what 855 00:53:57,493 --> 00:53:58,773 Speaker 4: technology can do. 856 00:54:00,373 --> 00:54:02,213 Speaker 3: By comparing humans with horses. 857 00:54:02,613 --> 00:54:05,573 Speaker 4: Apparently there were apparently one hundred years ago there was 858 00:54:05,613 --> 00:54:09,413 Speaker 4: something like a million working horses. I think tens tens 859 00:54:09,413 --> 00:54:11,373 Speaker 4: of millions of working horses in America. 860 00:54:11,933 --> 00:54:13,613 Speaker 3: Now there are only a few hundred. 861 00:54:13,253 --> 00:54:17,293 Speaker 4: Thousand, because once they invented the car and all these 862 00:54:17,333 --> 00:54:20,333 Speaker 4: sort of technologies, there was nothing for horses to do anymore. 863 00:54:20,373 --> 00:54:22,773 Speaker 4: So there's only a handful of horses in America that 864 00:54:22,813 --> 00:54:26,253 Speaker 4: are mainly race horses, and there's no other use for 865 00:54:26,293 --> 00:54:30,053 Speaker 4: a horse. And he threw up the sideea that maybe 866 00:54:30,053 --> 00:54:33,013 Speaker 4: we could go the way of horses. So this is 867 00:54:33,133 --> 00:54:35,613 Speaker 4: subject to sort of wild debate and conjecture. 868 00:54:36,573 --> 00:54:40,813 Speaker 2: Then I think finally you mentioned the well, we mentioned 869 00:54:40,813 --> 00:54:42,853 Speaker 2: the Reserve Bank, and you mentioned the governor, et cetera. 870 00:54:43,493 --> 00:54:46,453 Speaker 2: I want to give you my take very briefly on 871 00:54:48,653 --> 00:54:53,293 Speaker 2: central bank digital currencies. And you'd be aware, of course 872 00:54:53,333 --> 00:54:57,933 Speaker 2: that the Bank announced that it's goaling it for twenty thirty, 873 00:54:59,773 --> 00:55:03,253 Speaker 2: but don't worry about it. It'll be okay, because it'll 874 00:55:03,253 --> 00:55:06,173 Speaker 2: still be cash available and you'll still be running in parallel. 875 00:55:07,133 --> 00:55:13,293 Speaker 2: Now anybody who believes that, because the only time we've 876 00:55:13,293 --> 00:55:17,773 Speaker 2: heard that is after that crash a few weeks back, 877 00:55:18,573 --> 00:55:24,893 Speaker 2: and of course that provided a beautiful rebuttal of getting 878 00:55:25,533 --> 00:55:31,293 Speaker 2: forgetting a central bank digital currency that they own and control, 879 00:55:31,453 --> 00:55:34,853 Speaker 2: and therefore they will have control over each and every 880 00:55:34,853 --> 00:55:38,773 Speaker 2: one of our lives in the end. Now that's my feeling. 881 00:55:39,213 --> 00:55:43,213 Speaker 2: Freedom is the most important thing in our lives. Without freedom, 882 00:55:43,293 --> 00:55:46,973 Speaker 2: forget it. It's all over in my opinion. And I 883 00:55:47,013 --> 00:55:51,653 Speaker 2: don't trust Adrian Orr or the next bloke to follow, 884 00:55:52,053 --> 00:55:55,613 Speaker 2: or the bank itself in general, or politicians not to 885 00:55:55,973 --> 00:56:01,133 Speaker 2: utilize in particularly in cases of emergency, the gradual and 886 00:56:01,173 --> 00:56:04,773 Speaker 2: then sped up introduction of a single currency that they 887 00:56:04,813 --> 00:56:07,093 Speaker 2: control your thoughts. 888 00:56:08,453 --> 00:56:11,413 Speaker 4: I'm a great fan of cash too, I mean, like you, 889 00:56:11,533 --> 00:56:15,253 Speaker 4: it's sort of highly disturbing the idea that the government 890 00:56:15,333 --> 00:56:19,893 Speaker 4: and my bank and the accountants virtually know what time 891 00:56:19,973 --> 00:56:22,413 Speaker 4: you go to the toilet each day, because they can 892 00:56:22,453 --> 00:56:25,213 Speaker 4: trace that you've been to the supermarket and bought some 893 00:56:25,293 --> 00:56:29,853 Speaker 4: toilet paper, and every single thing you do is listed 894 00:56:29,893 --> 00:56:32,813 Speaker 4: on your godamn you know, set of Internet transactions. So 895 00:56:33,493 --> 00:56:37,693 Speaker 4: essentially there's never been a greater loss of privacy as 896 00:56:38,573 --> 00:56:42,933 Speaker 4: you know. Ever because of this tracking of of of 897 00:56:42,973 --> 00:56:46,053 Speaker 4: all of our habits and and that's the great sort 898 00:56:46,053 --> 00:56:49,773 Speaker 4: of story of our age. The Internet companies have available 899 00:56:50,533 --> 00:56:55,093 Speaker 4: unprecedented amounts of data and and know exactly what what 900 00:56:55,093 --> 00:56:57,973 Speaker 4: what what we're up to. So you know, those are 901 00:56:57,973 --> 00:57:00,773 Speaker 4: my thoughts too. That ASH is very important. The Reserve 902 00:57:00,773 --> 00:57:05,413 Speaker 4: Bank has said that it supports maintaining ASH. As you said, 903 00:57:06,733 --> 00:57:08,133 Speaker 4: the digital currency. 904 00:57:07,733 --> 00:57:10,533 Speaker 3: Is quite a key area in economics. 905 00:57:10,573 --> 00:57:16,133 Speaker 4: Our trading banks West Pakay and z already they have 906 00:57:16,213 --> 00:57:21,213 Speaker 4: accounts at the Reserve Bank and they're called the settlements 907 00:57:21,493 --> 00:57:24,413 Speaker 4: accounts and that essentially is a digital currency for them. 908 00:57:24,453 --> 00:57:28,013 Speaker 4: That's where they hold instead of physical cash that they're 909 00:57:28,013 --> 00:57:31,093 Speaker 4: given these accounts that they hold at the central Bank 910 00:57:31,173 --> 00:57:34,733 Speaker 4: and the reserve banks. Proposing we can essentially all old 911 00:57:34,773 --> 00:57:38,173 Speaker 4: accounts like the trading banks directly. 912 00:57:38,253 --> 00:57:39,253 Speaker 3: At the Reserve bank. 913 00:57:39,293 --> 00:57:42,853 Speaker 4: And maybe that has benefits because then where instead our 914 00:57:42,853 --> 00:57:45,813 Speaker 4: accounts at Westpac and Westpac bankrupted, we're up that we 915 00:57:45,853 --> 00:57:49,173 Speaker 4: could be up the creek. But if our funds are 916 00:57:49,173 --> 00:57:51,613 Speaker 4: held at the Reserve Bank, it's safer. 917 00:57:52,413 --> 00:57:54,093 Speaker 3: So but as you. 918 00:57:54,053 --> 00:57:58,493 Speaker 4: Say, the risk is if that proves to be wildly popular, 919 00:57:58,733 --> 00:58:00,773 Speaker 4: maybe it is a move that fear and fewer people 920 00:58:00,813 --> 00:58:03,413 Speaker 4: actually sort of even want to have cash, and then 921 00:58:03,453 --> 00:58:05,813 Speaker 4: with so few people paying with cash, it just does 922 00:58:05,973 --> 00:58:09,613 Speaker 4: gradually disappear, So that could happen. 923 00:58:10,653 --> 00:58:12,853 Speaker 2: I'm very pleased to say that I'm running into more 924 00:58:12,893 --> 00:58:16,573 Speaker 2: people who are saying I'm spending cash more than I 925 00:58:16,653 --> 00:58:20,053 Speaker 2: used to do because I don't want this coming my way. 926 00:58:20,733 --> 00:58:24,973 Speaker 4: It's interesting, Well, well, of course the banks, if there 927 00:58:25,013 --> 00:58:29,413 Speaker 4: is a conspiracy. Of course, the banks probably hate themselves 928 00:58:29,453 --> 00:58:35,253 Speaker 4: the idea of cash, because if all key we simply 929 00:58:35,293 --> 00:58:37,853 Speaker 4: went to the bank and took out they're spending money 930 00:58:37,853 --> 00:58:41,693 Speaker 4: for the week from their check account and just spent 931 00:58:41,733 --> 00:58:44,893 Speaker 4: the cash, they wouldn't be paying this godamn rip off 932 00:58:45,093 --> 00:58:49,693 Speaker 4: one or two percent of this payWave, a scandal that's 933 00:58:49,733 --> 00:58:50,333 Speaker 4: gripping the. 934 00:58:50,333 --> 00:58:52,573 Speaker 3: Nation that they think it's. 935 00:58:52,453 --> 00:58:56,333 Speaker 4: Convenient that every time you flash your card you transfer 936 00:58:56,493 --> 00:58:58,613 Speaker 4: a chunk of your money to the banks. So they 937 00:58:58,733 --> 00:59:01,453 Speaker 4: just love you paying with plastic and if you paid 938 00:59:01,453 --> 00:59:04,733 Speaker 4: with good old fashioned cash, you'd be saving a lot 939 00:59:04,733 --> 00:59:05,973 Speaker 4: of your money. 940 00:59:06,533 --> 00:59:10,813 Speaker 2: What a delightful idea, Robert. I've got to say, it's 941 00:59:10,853 --> 00:59:14,613 Speaker 2: been a very very pleasant period talking with you, and 942 00:59:15,293 --> 00:59:19,453 Speaker 2: maybe we'll do it again sometime. I can only imagine 943 00:59:19,773 --> 00:59:24,493 Speaker 2: that when when there is a worthwhile when there is 944 00:59:24,533 --> 00:59:30,053 Speaker 2: a worthwhile matter that deserves your attention, you'll say. 945 00:59:29,933 --> 00:59:32,733 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, of course I commit. 946 00:59:32,893 --> 00:59:37,613 Speaker 2: Now, as long as you're not committed there, yeah, committed, Yeah, 947 00:59:38,373 --> 00:59:41,733 Speaker 2: all right. I appreciate it was very enjoyable and very informative. 948 00:59:41,813 --> 01:00:03,053 Speaker 2: Very good, Thank you, thanks Robert. Now I'm doing it 949 01:00:03,053 --> 01:00:08,453 Speaker 2: a little differently this year. At the end of the replay, 950 01:00:08,333 --> 01:00:11,133 Speaker 2: the usually have a few words to say, and every 951 01:00:11,213 --> 01:00:12,973 Speaker 2: year I have to struggle to think up what the 952 01:00:12,973 --> 01:00:16,933 Speaker 2: appropriate thing is to put in this particular plot. So 953 01:00:17,013 --> 01:00:19,973 Speaker 2: I've decided to give myself a break and do one 954 01:00:20,013 --> 01:00:23,093 Speaker 2: that covers all of them. So if you've heard this before, 955 01:00:23,173 --> 01:00:26,613 Speaker 2: you can turn it off because you've heard it, because 956 01:00:26,613 --> 01:00:28,213 Speaker 2: it's going to be the same one for each of 957 01:00:28,253 --> 01:00:32,053 Speaker 2: the seven replays. Now, if this is the first one, 958 01:00:32,293 --> 01:00:36,053 Speaker 2: then I trust that you're having a wonderful holiday. If 959 01:00:36,093 --> 01:00:38,973 Speaker 2: you're not on holiday yet, your time will come. Rest assured. 960 01:00:39,773 --> 01:00:44,573 Speaker 2: I have enjoyed doing these because re listening to them myself, 961 01:00:44,973 --> 01:00:46,933 Speaker 2: I get more out of them and I see things, 962 01:00:47,053 --> 01:00:50,013 Speaker 2: or I should say, I hear things that I might 963 01:00:50,053 --> 01:00:52,053 Speaker 2: have got slightly wrong or I could have done better, 964 01:00:52,293 --> 01:00:55,773 Speaker 2: so it's a learning curve as well. Anyway, we will 965 01:00:55,813 --> 01:00:59,853 Speaker 2: be back for the next one a week from this 966 01:00:59,893 --> 01:01:03,613 Speaker 2: particular release, unless, of course it's the last one, which 967 01:01:03,653 --> 01:01:06,973 Speaker 2: is on the twenty ninth of January, and that'll be 968 01:01:07,013 --> 01:01:10,733 Speaker 2: the end of this replay series. Add on February five, 969 01:01:11,093 --> 01:01:14,853 Speaker 2: we shall return with fresh concept. In the meantime at 970 01:01:14,853 --> 01:01:17,013 Speaker 2: any stage, drop us on, drop us on notes if 971 01:01:17,013 --> 01:01:19,173 Speaker 2: you've got comment that you'd like to make later at 972 01:01:19,213 --> 01:01:22,213 Speaker 2: Newstalks AB dot co dot Enzen and Caroline at NEWSTALKSB 973 01:01:22,333 --> 01:01:27,013 Speaker 2: dot co dot enz and we shall talk soon. 974 01:01:34,893 --> 01:01:38,533 Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talks at B Listen 975 01:01:38,613 --> 01:01:41,573 Speaker 1: live on air or online, and keep our shows with 976 01:01:41,693 --> 01:01:44,813 Speaker 1: you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio