Speaker 1: Kiyota.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
Speaker 2: daily podcast.
Speaker 3: Presented by The New Zealand Herald.
Speaker 2: Debbie Nauda Packer is known for unapologetically fighting for the
Speaker 2: rights of Maldi. The co leader of Tepati Maldi never
Speaker 2: shies away from speaking her mind, especially when it comes
Speaker 2: to social and climate justice. Since becoming co leader in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty, she's been suspended from Parliament and criticized the
Speaker 2: coalition's intent to dismantle indigenous rights. At the last election,
Speaker 2: Tapati Maori won six electorate seats, its best result yet.
Speaker 2: Today on the Front Page, Debbie Nadoua Packa is with
Speaker 2: us to take us through how the party is gearing
Speaker 2: up for election twenty twenty six and how they'll appeal
Speaker 2: to the masses, or if they even.
Speaker 3: Want to so.
Speaker 2: Debbie, you've obviously been critical of the government's approach to
Speaker 2: Maldi rights and treaty obligations. What do you see is
Speaker 2: the most urgent challenges facing Malti under the current government.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think immediately what we have is a real
Speaker 4: challenge to democracy. Obviously, I've been really open about the
Speaker 4: iniquities that this government refuses to address such than health
Speaker 4: and education. But I think there's also a major trust
Speaker 4: issue that I don't think this government is ever certainly
Speaker 4: this Prime Minister is ever going to be able to resolve.
Speaker 4: And that's the way that this government has just come
Speaker 4: out and attacked Maori, every other minority and an important
Speaker 4: person that makes up the fabric of alty at all.
Speaker 2: Obviously, election day for the Tamiki Makodo by election is
Speaker 2: this Saturday, September six. We did an episode the other
Speaker 2: week about it where vic UNI Associate Professor Lara Greeves
Speaker 2: told us that it's basically a race to the finish
Speaker 2: line between Laboring to Batti Mali. You've got Bernie Hannada
Speaker 2: and Areni Kaipra.
Speaker 3: We know it.
Speaker 2: It was quite a tight contest in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2: How is it looking now this year this time around?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I'm coming into the bi election as
Speaker 4: some real concerning issues which I think affect the whole
Speaker 4: of Old head Or and that is the fact that
Speaker 4: we have round about nine eight hundred Maori on a
Speaker 4: dormant list and if that's not resolved by twenty twenty six,
Speaker 4: we effectively have then removed from being able to participate
Speaker 4: in democracy. So we've come into a by election where
Speaker 4: there are trust issues with the Electoral Commission, where we
Speaker 4: have not received confidence and assurance that the dormant list
Speaker 4: that keeps growing for Maori voters has been addressed. So
Speaker 4: you know that then means the scenario that we're dealing
Speaker 4: with is really.
Speaker 3: Really contentious. For whoever are the candidates.
Speaker 4: I think, you know, when we come into the desire,
Speaker 4: the desire of the people, I'm in Tomachy Macota at
Speaker 4: the moment, and it is about, you know, do we
Speaker 4: trust as Maori, you know, a person who's been a
Speaker 4: career politician eighteen years plus, in fact been an ex minister,
Speaker 4: or do we trust someone who's well no one has
Speaker 4: been a part of detraumatizing community and has shown her faciness.
Speaker 4: And I think that's really what it's coming down to her.
Speaker 4: And I know, you know, we've got a person who
Speaker 4: reputes himself on his history, who you know, tried to
Speaker 4: legislate out all during during his tenure, who was missing
Speaker 4: in action during COVID response for Mary, who allowed a
Speaker 4: Malori vaccine rollout to happen without Mali input, and in
Speaker 4: fact we had to stand up so I think, you know, again,
Speaker 4: we've got real trust issues and is you're going to
Speaker 4: do enough for the sense of urgency that Maori haves. So,
Speaker 4: you know, I think it will come down to the line.
Speaker 4: It will be who decides that actually we need to
Speaker 4: they even want to participate, given the trust isses we
Speaker 4: have with governments. But yeah, it's I am getting a
Speaker 4: real sense of the pain and the hurt and the
Speaker 4: betrayal from this government requires someone who's going to be
Speaker 4: different than what we've had from either settler parties or
Speaker 4: legacy parties, whichever they are called.
Speaker 2: What would a win for TO Party Maori and already
Speaker 2: mean heading into the election next year, do you think.
Speaker 4: Oh, I think, you know, for TO Party Mario. You know,
Speaker 4: it's really critical for us. We had the mandate and yes,
Speaker 4: yes you said it was. It was really tight, but
Speaker 4: it was a mandate that was growing despite the fact
Speaker 4: us having a really unwell you know, unwell MP and
Speaker 4: what we've seen and had connected with us as record
Speaker 4: numbers at a lot of the events, we had record
Speaker 4: numbers at the participation of who the selection process was
Speaker 4: going to be. So it's going to mean that we
Speaker 4: continue to have that voice and that voice, that's that's
Speaker 4: pushing one hundred percent for Mali to be seen and heard,
Speaker 4: particularly in an environment where we see our voices have
Speaker 4: been pushed back and our co propper, whether it be
Speaker 4: Final Order, Malori health, have all.
Speaker 3: Been pushed back.
Speaker 4: So I think it's really important for us that we
Speaker 4: continue to have somebody that's going to protect Tommy and
Speaker 4: Macota and protect the energy of what it is. But
Speaker 4: you know what else, it sort of sounds all doom
Speaker 4: and gloom. We've also seen a whole lot of positivity
Speaker 4: and a whole of solutions coming forward, and so we
Speaker 4: want another voice here that's going to push our wealth text,
Speaker 4: that's going to push our you know, our housing policy,
Speaker 4: that's going to push it our people no longer become
Speaker 4: homeless and can afford to have a house, you know,
Speaker 4: a roof over the heads and food on the table.
Speaker 4: So I think that's you know, that's a really important
Speaker 4: part of keeping this voice. But I know, you know,
Speaker 4: in an unapologetic party party, Marian, I think the thing
Speaker 4: is that you know, what we've seen when we sawt
Speaker 4: from the heir Cooys is that we're not a party
Speaker 4: that is for one hundred percent Maori focused, Mali inequities focused,
Speaker 4: but we're also one hundred and fifty percent altied or
Speaker 4: everyone focused. I think that's the climate that people want,
Speaker 4: is transformational change, but someone who peeps us all together
Speaker 4: and united, and that's what we stand for.
Speaker 3: That's what that voice is so important of here.
Speaker 2: If we do look forward to the twenty twenty six
Speaker 2: general election, I mean, I know that historically to Bartimori
Speaker 2: has focused on Maori seats, of course, but in terms
Speaker 2: of the Haircuois and that show of support that you
Speaker 2: saw from wider New Zealand, would would the party be
Speaker 2: open to perhaps going beyond its traditional vote base or
Speaker 2: do you even want to do that? Yeah?
Speaker 4: Of course, I mean I think, I mean what we
Speaker 4: want to do is have a nation that respects everyone's
Speaker 4: that respects everyone's uniqueness, diversity, that comes together and makes
Speaker 4: us an amazing nation that it is. That's what represents
Speaker 4: and what we've seen you without any doubt, have we
Speaker 4: saught on the treaty principal submissions and we've actually seen
Speaker 4: the Regultory Standards Bill a record ninety eight percent of
Speaker 4: opposing the division that we've seen, you know, rolling out
Speaker 4: of this sort of really hateful government and so absolutely,
Speaker 4: and I think we will continue to be Obviously we're
Speaker 4: in an indigenous led and Tongue Ta pheneral party, but
Speaker 4: that was never about living alone. We were always united
Speaker 4: in our fight against c big mining. We're united in
Speaker 4: our fight against you know, making sure that we can
Speaker 4: give good jobs, good homes and good lives, good education
Speaker 4: system for our people.
Speaker 3: That's what Tetanditi promises.
Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, we're absolutely, always has been focused and
Speaker 4: we and we use that terminology alter at our home.
Speaker 4: And I think you know, what we've had to contend
Speaker 4: with is a rhetoric of you know, brothers they're extreme,
Speaker 4: the others, Well, yeah, we are extremely optimistic, we are
Speaker 4: extremely altered or eccentric, and if we were to look
Speaker 4: at our values, everything about it is actually bringing the
Speaker 4: balance back into life and the restorative manner approach for everybody.
Speaker 4: So yeah, absolutely, and we've got to continue to be open.
Speaker 4: Like you know, I'm the second generation of party. Mighty
Speaker 4: goodness knows what the next generation now ongoing. We're under
Speaker 4: a twenty year old party. So as a movement, we're still, yes,
Speaker 4: still growing us and it's a really humbling place and
Speaker 4: exciting place to be.
Speaker 5: In because we fight to be the best time at
Speaker 5: the Fender weekend that old Eor deserves. Doesn't mean that
Speaker 5: we're anting anybody as absolutely not. When you wanted to
Speaker 5: blow up things in Pacific, you know, People's Ministry for
Speaker 5: Pacific Keepers, all those types of you've never heard that
Speaker 5: from us once.
Speaker 2: What would you say to an undecided a Parkih voter,
Speaker 2: I suppose do you think there's a misconception that you
Speaker 2: will only look after Mali?
Speaker 4: I think there is, and it's just so, And I
Speaker 4: think actually it's a narrative that's been deliberately designed. But
Speaker 4: I always think that actions speak louder than words. And
Speaker 4: you know, for an example, Rawi and I found a
Speaker 4: water wipe data a lot of the heart of to
Speaker 4: party Maori where showed our actions during COVID.
Speaker 3: We looked after everyone. We looked after the whole community.
Speaker 4: And while we were all doing that together, we took
Speaker 4: the weight of the public health system and off the
Speaker 4: hospital so it could focus on those who needed that
Speaker 4: acute care. We fed everyone, We communicated at all levels
Speaker 4: to everyone, and I bet you couldn't find a single
Speaker 4: person in to Taihwa to Electric that said. We didn't
Speaker 4: tune up for a whole community that we didn't turn
Speaker 4: up for his whole community. Final order didn't deliver to
Speaker 4: its whole community. We can't be a nation that's divided
Speaker 4: and hateful, that leaves people behind. And what we've seen,
Speaker 4: sadly is, you know, women have been expendable. We've seen
Speaker 4: our disabled tiku of the whole community left behind. It's
Speaker 4: just not a narrative, but I do see continuously and
Speaker 4: I guess the first half of this year also we've.
Speaker 3: Been pushing back and refusing to comply.
Speaker 4: With the speaker, with the way that we've seen the House,
Speaker 4: you know, act disproportionately and unfear to us as an
Speaker 4: Indigenous League party. So yeah, like I said, I can
Speaker 4: see where that narrative comes from. But our actions completely
Speaker 4: say the opposite. The Hequoi shows we're completely the opposite.
Speaker 4: Our support for other people of Palestine, our support for
Speaker 4: environmental issues, our support for everyone being well completely shows
Speaker 4: the opposite. So I think it's you know, we we
Speaker 4: want to look after all workers in all New Zealanders
Speaker 4: and what we want is for everyone to be given
Speaker 4: a fair chance to live well, not just the two
Speaker 4: percent to more than fifty percent of the wealth of
Speaker 4: old ted Le or so like to Party Kakaiki, who
Speaker 4: we get on really well with. We have a wealth tax,
Speaker 4: and our wealth tax is not about being rich envy,
Speaker 4: It's actually about it let's just distribute the wealth and
Speaker 4: have a tax system that's fair for all. So yeah,
Speaker 4: and we don't get to talk about those things a
Speaker 4: lot because the media normally wants to hear the drama
Speaker 4: of what we're doing.
Speaker 3: So yeah, and I think that's good.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, And I think I think that's because
Speaker 4: you know, we just keep getting cornered in some of
Speaker 4: these politics. But the reality is, you listen to Hannah
Speaker 4: and the contribution she makes to education and in the
Speaker 4: progress that she's proposing. I think we're a really progressive
Speaker 4: movement and we're really really proud to be staunchly side
Speaker 4: by side with to Party cr cutter Key as well.
Speaker 3: So I think two of us know what we're doing.
Speaker 2: Why do you think some people are so hell bent
Speaker 2: on disregarding the basic fact that Maldi and Pacifica face
Speaker 2: different health outcomes than Parki ha on the podcast when
Speaker 2: I said that, said just that there are worse outcomes
Speaker 2: for Maldi and pacifica David Seymour said this, You've also.
Speaker 1: Said that your preferred lens for partitioning human beings is race. Actually,
Speaker 1: there are differences between rich and poor. There are differences
Speaker 1: based on education. There are differences based on whether people
Speaker 1: choose to spoke serrits. There are differences based on dietary
Speaker 1: There are so many different ways that you can categorize people.
Speaker 1: I just reject choosing one which is quite clumsy, quite nicky,
Speaker 1: and doesn't actually get us to target the people in
Speaker 1: greatest need.
Speaker 2: Now a lot to unpack there, But what would you
Speaker 2: say to people who think that everyone should be treated
Speaker 2: I suppose equally is his argument.
Speaker 4: I think the whole debate and the fundamental difference between
Speaker 4: the likes of us and ACT is that we don't
Speaker 4: deny our history. We don't deny that we have an equities.
Speaker 4: We don't deny that we've all arrived to today with
Speaker 4: different with different parts of who and what makes us up.
Speaker 4: And that's the biggest debate that we're having is we
Speaker 4: have a politician like David Seymour who's pretending that we
Speaker 4: have we wipe out the history, for example of colonization,
Speaker 4: we wipe out the history of two or three generations
Speaker 4: of trauma. We wipe out the history of the weight
Speaker 4: that it takes to break the cycle of deficit thinking,
Speaker 4: to break the cycle of poverty, to break the cycle
Speaker 4: of being able to feel at one with the rest
Speaker 4: of your community. That is a bigger systemic issue that
Speaker 4: the refusing to accept, which effectively says, but like the treaty,
Speaker 4: colonization never happened.
Speaker 3: The treaty never happened.
Speaker 4: In fact, Maldi pacifica, and not just us, woman and
Speaker 4: not just women those who are disabled.
Speaker 3: Buckle up. We all are treated the same.
Speaker 4: And the reality is you and I know an everyday
Speaker 4: basis that that's not the fact at all. So I
Speaker 4: also think equity costs, and there has been a real
Speaker 4: cost equation put to us. And we thought David was
Speaker 4: really outspoken during a COVID and so was Judith Collins.
Speaker 4: Oh you know this is this is not as costing us.
Speaker 4: Marty shouldn't have their own vaccine thing. Marty shouldn't have Well, actually,
Speaker 4: we live collectively when when a lot of Western cultures don't.
Speaker 4: We have a different way of communicating. And I think
Speaker 4: what we've seen sadly is a politician who really just
Speaker 4: doesn't respect the fact that there were people here. We
Speaker 4: have rights as everyone does. Those are indigenous rights which
Speaker 4: are captured in ten tnty, which is why he's attacking
Speaker 4: ten Tarnty. I think the other thing is because equity costs,
Speaker 4: and nobody wants to invest in that when they prefer
Speaker 4: to have you know, exploitation, corporate exploitation, atlas agendas coming through,
Speaker 4: whatever you want to call it, whether you accept that
Speaker 4: or not. We have a different approach, and we believe
Speaker 4: in investing in equity and doing a target approach to
Speaker 4: addressing inequities and let us get on and do it
Speaker 4: once for all and get us all to a stage
Speaker 4: where we can live equally. And I think that's the
Speaker 4: fundamental difference between us all is we don't deny our history.
Speaker 4: It made us who we are from Tatanaki advantage by
Speaker 4: the resilience that my ancestors are sent you gave to
Speaker 4: me through everything they endured. But that doesn't mean that
Speaker 4: I'm prepared to wipe out what they went through. So yeah,
Speaker 4: and I think it's just a moment in time. I
Speaker 4: do think that you can see it now, young ones
Speaker 4: Mali non Mali tongue to Titi, tongue to mourner, whatever
Speaker 4: you want to label yourself. There is a general acceptance,
Speaker 4: a social justice acceptance that everyone deserves to be treated
Speaker 4: with dignity and we want to live in peace.
Speaker 3: It's just we've got.
Speaker 4: Some're a young country with the last of the countries
Speaker 4: that were colonize, so we've got a little bit of
Speaker 4: growth to go through and we'll get there.
Speaker 3: It's just a bit tough at the moment.
Speaker 2: And lastly, if there's one thing that you could change tomorrow,
Speaker 2: what would it be?
Speaker 3: Are really easy?
Speaker 4: I would first of all, resource and invest hugely in
Speaker 4: the program of Martiquiemai as an educational copaper for us
Speaker 4: as a nation, and invest time in what would transformational
Speaker 4: change be and look like. And that is a growing
Speaker 4: up program and conversation. I think it's exciting. It happened
Speaker 4: in the past. It's had more than ten thousand people
Speaker 4: at fifteen thousand people contribute to it at Verrey in phases,
Speaker 4: and I think that the world could see how we
Speaker 4: map out our being together, our social cohesion as an
Speaker 4: indigenous led.
Speaker 3: Nation, a proud nation of Mardi and a nation that's
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 4: It's because Once we do that in trench collectively with
Speaker 4: Idle Heart, then that sets the theme for everything we
Speaker 4: do with each other.
Speaker 3: Your rights and my rights both matter.
Speaker 4: Your rights and my rights to look after our nation
Speaker 4: are just as important. But until we accept each other's rights,
Speaker 4: we're just going to continue to sort of go down
Speaker 4: this FORR. Sad Lane that I think only a few
Speaker 4: are saying. And the evidences and he called the evidences
Speaker 4: and the truly principal skill the evidences in the regulatory
Speaker 4: standard schill and they get a lot of airtime, but
Speaker 4: I think these are That's what I would do.
Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us, Debbie, anytime.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 2: at NZADHERLD, dot co, dot MZ. The Front Page is
Speaker 2: produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also
Speaker 2: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniel. Subscribe to the Front Page
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