1 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Kiyota. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 2: daily podcast. 4 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 3: Presented by The New Zealand Herald. 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:21,119 Speaker 2: Debbie Nauda Packer is known for unapologetically fighting for the 6 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 2: rights of Maldi. The co leader of Tepati Maldi never 7 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 2: shies away from speaking her mind, especially when it comes 8 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 2: to social and climate justice. Since becoming co leader in 9 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:38,239 Speaker 2: twenty twenty, she's been suspended from Parliament and criticized the 10 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 2: coalition's intent to dismantle indigenous rights. At the last election, 11 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:48,200 Speaker 2: Tapati Maori won six electorate seats, its best result yet. 12 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 2: Today on the Front Page, Debbie Nadoua Packa is with 13 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 2: us to take us through how the party is gearing 14 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 2: up for election twenty twenty six and how they'll appeal 15 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 2: to the masses, or if they even. 16 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 3: Want to so. 17 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 2: Debbie, you've obviously been critical of the government's approach to 18 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 2: Maldi rights and treaty obligations. What do you see is 19 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 2: the most urgent challenges facing Malti under the current government. 20 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,119 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think immediately what we have is a real 21 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 4: challenge to democracy. Obviously, I've been really open about the 22 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 4: iniquities that this government refuses to address such than health 23 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 4: and education. But I think there's also a major trust 24 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 4: issue that I don't think this government is ever certainly 25 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 4: this Prime Minister is ever going to be able to resolve. 26 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 4: And that's the way that this government has just come 27 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 4: out and attacked Maori, every other minority and an important 28 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 4: person that makes up the fabric of alty at all. 29 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 2: Obviously, election day for the Tamiki Makodo by election is 30 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 2: this Saturday, September six. We did an episode the other 31 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 2: week about it where vic UNI Associate Professor Lara Greeves 32 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 2: told us that it's basically a race to the finish 33 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 2: line between Laboring to Batti Mali. You've got Bernie Hannada 34 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 2: and Areni Kaipra. 35 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 3: We know it. 36 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 2: It was quite a tight contest in twenty twenty three. 37 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 2: How is it looking now this year this time around? 38 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I'm coming into the bi election as 39 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,839 Speaker 4: some real concerning issues which I think affect the whole 40 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 4: of Old head Or and that is the fact that 41 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 4: we have round about nine eight hundred Maori on a 42 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 4: dormant list and if that's not resolved by twenty twenty six, 43 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 4: we effectively have then removed from being able to participate 44 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 4: in democracy. So we've come into a by election where 45 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 4: there are trust issues with the Electoral Commission, where we 46 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 4: have not received confidence and assurance that the dormant list 47 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 4: that keeps growing for Maori voters has been addressed. So 48 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,519 Speaker 4: you know that then means the scenario that we're dealing 49 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 4: with is really. 50 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 3: Really contentious. For whoever are the candidates. 51 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 4: I think, you know, when we come into the desire, 52 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 4: the desire of the people, I'm in Tomachy Macota at 53 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 4: the moment, and it is about, you know, do we 54 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 4: trust as Maori, you know, a person who's been a 55 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 4: career politician eighteen years plus, in fact been an ex minister, 56 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 4: or do we trust someone who's well no one has 57 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 4: been a part of detraumatizing community and has shown her faciness. 58 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 4: And I think that's really what it's coming down to her. 59 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 4: And I know, you know, we've got a person who 60 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 4: reputes himself on his history, who you know, tried to 61 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 4: legislate out all during during his tenure, who was missing 62 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 4: in action during COVID response for Mary, who allowed a 63 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 4: Malori vaccine rollout to happen without Mali input, and in 64 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 4: fact we had to stand up so I think, you know, again, 65 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 4: we've got real trust issues and is you're going to 66 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 4: do enough for the sense of urgency that Maori haves. So, 67 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 4: you know, I think it will come down to the line. 68 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 4: It will be who decides that actually we need to 69 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 4: they even want to participate, given the trust isses we 70 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 4: have with governments. But yeah, it's I am getting a 71 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 4: real sense of the pain and the hurt and the 72 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 4: betrayal from this government requires someone who's going to be 73 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 4: different than what we've had from either settler parties or 74 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 4: legacy parties, whichever they are called. 75 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 2: What would a win for TO Party Maori and already 76 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 2: mean heading into the election next year, do you think. 77 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 4: Oh, I think, you know, for TO Party Mario. You know, 78 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 4: it's really critical for us. We had the mandate and yes, 79 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 4: yes you said it was. It was really tight, but 80 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 4: it was a mandate that was growing despite the fact 81 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 4: us having a really unwell you know, unwell MP and 82 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 4: what we've seen and had connected with us as record 83 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 4: numbers at a lot of the events, we had record 84 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 4: numbers at the participation of who the selection process was 85 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 4: going to be. So it's going to mean that we 86 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 4: continue to have that voice and that voice, that's that's 87 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 4: pushing one hundred percent for Mali to be seen and heard, 88 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 4: particularly in an environment where we see our voices have 89 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 4: been pushed back and our co propper, whether it be 90 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 4: Final Order, Malori health, have all. 91 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 3: Been pushed back. 92 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 4: So I think it's really important for us that we 93 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 4: continue to have somebody that's going to protect Tommy and 94 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 4: Macota and protect the energy of what it is. But 95 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 4: you know what else, it sort of sounds all doom 96 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 4: and gloom. We've also seen a whole lot of positivity 97 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 4: and a whole of solutions coming forward, and so we 98 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 4: want another voice here that's going to push our wealth text, 99 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,359 Speaker 4: that's going to push our you know, our housing policy, 100 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 4: that's going to push it our people no longer become 101 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 4: homeless and can afford to have a house, you know, 102 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 4: a roof over the heads and food on the table. 103 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 4: So I think that's you know, that's a really important 104 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 4: part of keeping this voice. But I know, you know, 105 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 4: in an unapologetic party party, Marian, I think the thing 106 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 4: is that you know, what we've seen when we sawt 107 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 4: from the heir Cooys is that we're not a party 108 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 4: that is for one hundred percent Maori focused, Mali inequities focused, 109 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 4: but we're also one hundred and fifty percent altied or 110 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 4: everyone focused. I think that's the climate that people want, 111 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 4: is transformational change, but someone who peeps us all together 112 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 4: and united, and that's what we stand for. 113 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 3: That's what that voice is so important of here. 114 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 2: If we do look forward to the twenty twenty six 115 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 2: general election, I mean, I know that historically to Bartimori 116 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 2: has focused on Maori seats, of course, but in terms 117 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 2: of the Haircuois and that show of support that you 118 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 2: saw from wider New Zealand, would would the party be 119 00:06:55,960 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 2: open to perhaps going beyond its traditional vote base or 120 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 2: do you even want to do that? Yeah? 121 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 4: Of course, I mean I think, I mean what we 122 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 4: want to do is have a nation that respects everyone's 123 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 4: that respects everyone's uniqueness, diversity, that comes together and makes 124 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 4: us an amazing nation that it is. That's what represents 125 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 4: and what we've seen you without any doubt, have we 126 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 4: saught on the treaty principal submissions and we've actually seen 127 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 4: the Regultory Standards Bill a record ninety eight percent of 128 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 4: opposing the division that we've seen, you know, rolling out 129 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 4: of this sort of really hateful government and so absolutely, 130 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 4: and I think we will continue to be Obviously we're 131 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 4: in an indigenous led and Tongue Ta pheneral party, but 132 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 4: that was never about living alone. We were always united 133 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 4: in our fight against c big mining. We're united in 134 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 4: our fight against you know, making sure that we can 135 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 4: give good jobs, good homes and good lives, good education 136 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 4: system for our people. 137 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 3: That's what Tetanditi promises. 138 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, we're absolutely, always has been focused and 139 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 4: we and we use that terminology alter at our home. 140 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 4: And I think you know, what we've had to contend 141 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 4: with is a rhetoric of you know, brothers they're extreme, 142 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 4: the others, Well, yeah, we are extremely optimistic, we are 143 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 4: extremely altered or eccentric, and if we were to look 144 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 4: at our values, everything about it is actually bringing the 145 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 4: balance back into life and the restorative manner approach for everybody. 146 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 4: So yeah, absolutely, and we've got to continue to be open. 147 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 4: Like you know, I'm the second generation of party. Mighty 148 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 4: goodness knows what the next generation now ongoing. We're under 149 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 4: a twenty year old party. So as a movement, we're still, yes, 150 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 4: still growing us and it's a really humbling place and 151 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 4: exciting place to be. 152 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 5: In because we fight to be the best time at 153 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 5: the Fender weekend that old Eor deserves. Doesn't mean that 154 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,839 Speaker 5: we're anting anybody as absolutely not. When you wanted to 155 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 5: blow up things in Pacific, you know, People's Ministry for 156 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 5: Pacific Keepers, all those types of you've never heard that 157 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 5: from us once. 158 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 2: What would you say to an undecided a Parkih voter, 159 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 2: I suppose do you think there's a misconception that you 160 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 2: will only look after Mali? 161 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 4: I think there is, and it's just so, And I 162 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 4: think actually it's a narrative that's been deliberately designed. But 163 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 4: I always think that actions speak louder than words. And 164 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 4: you know, for an example, Rawi and I found a 165 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 4: water wipe data a lot of the heart of to 166 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 4: party Maori where showed our actions during COVID. 167 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 3: We looked after everyone. We looked after the whole community. 168 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 4: And while we were all doing that together, we took 169 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 4: the weight of the public health system and off the 170 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 4: hospital so it could focus on those who needed that 171 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 4: acute care. We fed everyone, We communicated at all levels 172 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 4: to everyone, and I bet you couldn't find a single 173 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 4: person in to Taihwa to Electric that said. We didn't 174 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 4: tune up for a whole community that we didn't turn 175 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 4: up for his whole community. Final order didn't deliver to 176 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 4: its whole community. We can't be a nation that's divided 177 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 4: and hateful, that leaves people behind. And what we've seen, 178 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 4: sadly is, you know, women have been expendable. We've seen 179 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 4: our disabled tiku of the whole community left behind. It's 180 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 4: just not a narrative, but I do see continuously and 181 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 4: I guess the first half of this year also we've. 182 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 3: Been pushing back and refusing to comply. 183 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 4: With the speaker, with the way that we've seen the House, 184 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 4: you know, act disproportionately and unfear to us as an 185 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,319 Speaker 4: Indigenous League party. So yeah, like I said, I can 186 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 4: see where that narrative comes from. But our actions completely 187 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 4: say the opposite. The Hequoi shows we're completely the opposite. 188 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 4: Our support for other people of Palestine, our support for 189 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 4: environmental issues, our support for everyone being well completely shows 190 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 4: the opposite. So I think it's you know, we we 191 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 4: want to look after all workers in all New Zealanders 192 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 4: and what we want is for everyone to be given 193 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 4: a fair chance to live well, not just the two 194 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 4: percent to more than fifty percent of the wealth of 195 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 4: old ted Le or so like to Party Kakaiki, who 196 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 4: we get on really well with. We have a wealth tax, 197 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 4: and our wealth tax is not about being rich envy, 198 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 4: It's actually about it let's just distribute the wealth and 199 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 4: have a tax system that's fair for all. So yeah, 200 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 4: and we don't get to talk about those things a 201 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 4: lot because the media normally wants to hear the drama 202 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 4: of what we're doing. 203 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 3: So yeah, and I think that's good. 204 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, And I think I think that's because 205 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 4: you know, we just keep getting cornered in some of 206 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 4: these politics. But the reality is, you listen to Hannah 207 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 4: and the contribution she makes to education and in the 208 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 4: progress that she's proposing. I think we're a really progressive 209 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 4: movement and we're really really proud to be staunchly side 210 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 4: by side with to Party cr cutter Key as well. 211 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 3: So I think two of us know what we're doing. 212 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,959 Speaker 2: Why do you think some people are so hell bent 213 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 2: on disregarding the basic fact that Maldi and Pacifica face 214 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 2: different health outcomes than Parki ha on the podcast when 215 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 2: I said that, said just that there are worse outcomes 216 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 2: for Maldi and pacifica David Seymour said this, You've also. 217 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: Said that your preferred lens for partitioning human beings is race. Actually, 218 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:38,079 Speaker 1: there are differences between rich and poor. There are differences 219 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: based on education. There are differences based on whether people 220 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: choose to spoke serrits. There are differences based on dietary 221 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: There are so many different ways that you can categorize people. 222 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: I just reject choosing one which is quite clumsy, quite nicky, 223 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: and doesn't actually get us to target the people in 224 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: greatest need. 225 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 2: Now a lot to unpack there, But what would you 226 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 2: say to people who think that everyone should be treated 227 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 2: I suppose equally is his argument. 228 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 4: I think the whole debate and the fundamental difference between 229 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 4: the likes of us and ACT is that we don't 230 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 4: deny our history. We don't deny that we have an equities. 231 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 4: We don't deny that we've all arrived to today with 232 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 4: different with different parts of who and what makes us up. 233 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 4: And that's the biggest debate that we're having is we 234 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,839 Speaker 4: have a politician like David Seymour who's pretending that we 235 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 4: have we wipe out the history, for example of colonization, 236 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 4: we wipe out the history of two or three generations 237 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 4: of trauma. We wipe out the history of the weight 238 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 4: that it takes to break the cycle of deficit thinking, 239 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 4: to break the cycle of poverty, to break the cycle 240 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 4: of being able to feel at one with the rest 241 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 4: of your community. That is a bigger systemic issue that 242 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 4: the refusing to accept, which effectively says, but like the treaty, 243 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 4: colonization never happened. 244 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 3: The treaty never happened. 245 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 4: In fact, Maldi pacifica, and not just us, woman and 246 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 4: not just women those who are disabled. 247 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 3: Buckle up. We all are treated the same. 248 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 4: And the reality is you and I know an everyday 249 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 4: basis that that's not the fact at all. So I 250 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 4: also think equity costs, and there has been a real 251 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 4: cost equation put to us. And we thought David was 252 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 4: really outspoken during a COVID and so was Judith Collins. 253 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 4: Oh you know this is this is not as costing us. 254 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 4: Marty shouldn't have their own vaccine thing. Marty shouldn't have Well, actually, 255 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 4: we live collectively when when a lot of Western cultures don't. 256 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 4: We have a different way of communicating. And I think 257 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 4: what we've seen sadly is a politician who really just 258 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 4: doesn't respect the fact that there were people here. We 259 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 4: have rights as everyone does. Those are indigenous rights which 260 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 4: are captured in ten tnty, which is why he's attacking 261 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 4: ten Tarnty. I think the other thing is because equity costs, 262 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 4: and nobody wants to invest in that when they prefer 263 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 4: to have you know, exploitation, corporate exploitation, atlas agendas coming through, 264 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 4: whatever you want to call it, whether you accept that 265 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 4: or not. We have a different approach, and we believe 266 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 4: in investing in equity and doing a target approach to 267 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 4: addressing inequities and let us get on and do it 268 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 4: once for all and get us all to a stage 269 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 4: where we can live equally. And I think that's the 270 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 4: fundamental difference between us all is we don't deny our history. 271 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 4: It made us who we are from Tatanaki advantage by 272 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 4: the resilience that my ancestors are sent you gave to 273 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 4: me through everything they endured. But that doesn't mean that 274 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 4: I'm prepared to wipe out what they went through. So yeah, 275 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 4: and I think it's just a moment in time. I 276 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 4: do think that you can see it now, young ones 277 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 4: Mali non Mali tongue to Titi, tongue to mourner, whatever 278 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 4: you want to label yourself. There is a general acceptance, 279 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 4: a social justice acceptance that everyone deserves to be treated 280 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 4: with dignity and we want to live in peace. 281 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 3: It's just we've got. 282 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 4: Some're a young country with the last of the countries 283 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 4: that were colonize, so we've got a little bit of 284 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 4: growth to go through and we'll get there. 285 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 3: It's just a bit tough at the moment. 286 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 2: And lastly, if there's one thing that you could change tomorrow, 287 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 2: what would it be? 288 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 3: Are really easy? 289 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 4: I would first of all, resource and invest hugely in 290 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 4: the program of Martiquiemai as an educational copaper for us 291 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 4: as a nation, and invest time in what would transformational 292 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 4: change be and look like. And that is a growing 293 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 4: up program and conversation. I think it's exciting. It happened 294 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 4: in the past. It's had more than ten thousand people 295 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 4: at fifteen thousand people contribute to it at Verrey in phases, 296 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 4: and I think that the world could see how we 297 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 4: map out our being together, our social cohesion as an 298 00:16:57,960 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 4: indigenous led. 299 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 3: Nation, a proud nation of Mardi and a nation that's 300 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 3: you know. 301 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 4: It's because Once we do that in trench collectively with 302 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 4: Idle Heart, then that sets the theme for everything we 303 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 4: do with each other. 304 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 3: Your rights and my rights both matter. 305 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 4: Your rights and my rights to look after our nation 306 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 4: are just as important. But until we accept each other's rights, 307 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 4: we're just going to continue to sort of go down 308 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 4: this FORR. Sad Lane that I think only a few 309 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 4: are saying. And the evidences and he called the evidences 310 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 4: and the truly principal skill the evidences in the regulatory 311 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 4: standard schill and they get a lot of airtime, but 312 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 4: I think these are That's what I would do. 313 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us, Debbie, anytime. 314 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 315 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 316 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 2: at NZADHERLD, dot co, dot MZ. The Front Page is 317 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 2: produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also 318 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 2: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniel. Subscribe to the Front Page 319 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune 320 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,880 Speaker 2: in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.