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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks B. Follow

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Speaker 1: this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of us now the Leighton

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Speaker 1: Smith Podcast powered by News Talks B.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to podcast two hundred and fifty four for September four,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. The last two podcasts have brought forth

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Speaker 2: a substantial number of email comments that reflected various views

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Speaker 2: on those interviews. Firstly it was Stephen Rainbow, the newly

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Speaker 2: announced Chief Human Rights Commissioner, and then last week in

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Speaker 2: two five three it was Jill Ovans from the Women's

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Speaker 2: Rights Party.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: One of those emails suggested that my criticism of Justice Bromwich,

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Speaker 2: who featured in the case Tickle and Giggle in the

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Speaker 2: last week's podcast, was incorrect and out of line. It

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Speaker 2: was a good letter. I just didn't agree, so I

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Speaker 2: thought that it was worthy of investigating at a shall

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Speaker 2: we say, a more elevated legal level. Enter Professor James

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Speaker 2: Adam Canadian who taught for a number of years at

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Speaker 2: the University of Otago now at the University of Queensland,

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Speaker 2: and let me tell you. I think it was a

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Speaker 2: very very very good discussion and it follows shortly. But

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Speaker 2: first there's another matter I want to attend to. It

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Speaker 2: seems of late that I'm getting an increasing number of

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Speaker 2: letters asking for advice on books at associated matters, and

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Speaker 2: I don't mind that at all, but I have to

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Speaker 2: admit to have dropped behind a little in my correspondence.

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Speaker 2: So for those of you who might be waiting for

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Speaker 2: a response, it should still be coming. If it doesn't

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Speaker 2: turn up soon, then let me know. But I'll give

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Speaker 2: you all the advice that I possibly can. But referring

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Speaker 2: to one book that I have reviewed and done an interview,

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Speaker 2: or to actually two interviews with one of the authors,

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Speaker 2: Climate Actually, ought to bring you up to date. Climate

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Speaker 2: Actually is a New Zealand book. It represents more than

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Speaker 2: four years of research. I'm quoting from the Amazon Australia commentary.

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Speaker 2: Climate Actually represents more than four years of research respectively

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Speaker 2: by three lay authors, where they considered the scientific concepts

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Speaker 2: and evidence surrounding the current narrative of climate alarmists anthropogenetic

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Speaker 2: global warming. Now, for those who have missed the debates,

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Speaker 2: this is the claim that man made activities producing resultant

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Speaker 2: excess emissions of greenhouse gases, including carbon dioxide CO two,

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Speaker 2: methane H four, and nitrous oxide N two, are principally

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Speaker 2: responsible for catastrophic global warming. The authors have been assisted

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Speaker 2: by some of the most qualified academics available worldwide, whom

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Speaker 2: they prevailed upon to provide a truthful explanation of what

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Speaker 2: the claim of global warming is actually about from a

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Speaker 2: scientific point of view. They produced an easy to read

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Speaker 2: publication for all interested people to read a more likely scenario,

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Speaker 2: devoid of any biased media interference, and with the goal

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Speaker 2: to show future generations that in the twenty first century

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Speaker 2: we were not all gullible to climate alarmist doctrine. The

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Speaker 2: truth is the actual science shows that the culprit is

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Speaker 2: water vapor. This is the most significant greenhouse gas GHG

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Speaker 2: by orders of magnitude, but it is never mentioned. Our

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Speaker 2: authors deduce the only possible reason for the emission of

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Speaker 2: water vapor as a greenhouse gas is because no one

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Speaker 2: has yet devised a business plan to tax rain. There

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Speaker 2: is a universe uall misunderstanding that weather is climate. What's more,

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Speaker 2: global warming is not climate. CO two is not carbon emissions,

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Speaker 2: and CO two is not toxic, but is the elixir

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Speaker 2: of life. The planet is actually in a CO two drought.

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Speaker 2: We need more CO two, not less, which will make

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Speaker 2: the planet greener, plants more drought resistant, and food sources

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Speaker 2: much more plentiful. Ever heard that before? Since the Industrial

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Speaker 2: Revolution there is an estimated thirty percent increase in crop productivity,

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Speaker 2: and yet the alarmists are trying to remove the very

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Speaker 2: basis on which survival depends. Though, if you need a

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Speaker 2: scary story, reducing CO two concentrations below one hundred and

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Speaker 2: fifty parts per million will bring on the sixth global extinction.

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Speaker 2: Plants cannot photosynthesize at that level and will die if

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Speaker 2: they do that. How is oxygen to be produced, which

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Speaker 2: we do we all depend upon for survival. You've never

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Speaker 2: heard that before. Either. Climates has changed for the last

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Speaker 2: countless millennia and will continue to do so despite humans.

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Speaker 2: This book is written in simple language to assist everyone

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Speaker 2: to understand the complex true science, and it is a

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Speaker 2: must to follow the money, including to the Greenhouse Fund

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Speaker 2: administered by the UN's Paris Accord, into which all emissions

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Speaker 2: trading systems taxes are payable. Why are our children in

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Speaker 2: New Zealand And elsewhere school about climate change according to

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Speaker 2: a curriculum that compulsorily requires them to be taught only

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Speaker 2: the incorrect doctrine of the climate alarmist. For anyone who

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Speaker 2: is curious about any or all of this, this book

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Speaker 2: is a must read. At best, you'll get the picture.

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Speaker 2: At worst, you'll do your own research and the results

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Speaker 2: will astound you, as they did the authors. Now, the

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Speaker 2: book is authored by Andrew Hollis, whom we interviewed on

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Speaker 2: two occasions, Mike Sanke and Alan Trotter. And I think

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Speaker 2: I'm right in saying that Alan Trotter was the driving force.

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Speaker 2: But nevertheless they've all done a very good job. Now

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Speaker 2: it's available from Amazon Australia. The price is very respectable

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Speaker 2: and you'll get it in a very quick time for

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Speaker 2: five six days. And that's volume one. Of course, volume

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Speaker 2: two which at this point is available on kindle if

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Speaker 2: you want the If you want the book form, you

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Speaker 2: have to wait a little longer. Now coming up next,

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Speaker 2: Professor James Allen. There are essential fat nutrients that we

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Speaker 2: need in our diet as the body can't manufacture them.

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Speaker 2: These are Omega three and Amiga six fatty acids. Equism

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Speaker 2: is a combination of fish oil and virgin evening primrose oil,

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Speaker 2: a formula that provides an excellent source of Omega three

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Speaker 2: and Omega six fatty acids in their naturally existing ratios.

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Speaker 2: The Omega six from evening primrose oil assists the Omega

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Speaker 2: three fish oil to be more effective. Equisine is a

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Speaker 2: high quality fish oil supplement enriched with evening primrose oil

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Speaker 2: that works synergistically for comprehensive health support. Source from the

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Speaker 2: deep sea sardines Anchovisa macrol provide essential Amiga three fatty

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Speaker 2: acids in their purest form without any internal organs or toxins.

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Speaker 2: Every batch is tested for its purity before it's allowed

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Speaker 2: to be sold. Equisine supports cells to be flexible, so

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Speaker 2: important to support healthy blood flow and overall cardiovascular health.

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Speaker 2: Equisine can support mood, balance and mental clarity and focus

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Speaker 2: in children, all the way to supporting stiff joints, mental focus,

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Speaker 2: brain health and healthy eyes as we get older. Equisine

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Speaker 2: is a premium, high grade fish and evening primrose oil

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Speaker 2: to be taken in our addition to a healthy diet

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Speaker 2: and is only available from pharmacies and health stores. Always

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Speaker 2: read the label and users directed and if symptoms persist

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Speaker 2: seeing your healthcare professional. Farmer Broker Auckland, Professor of Law

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Speaker 2: the University of Queensland. James Allen is well known to

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Speaker 2: this podcast audience and he is much appreciated and it's

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Speaker 2: great to have you back on the podcast, particularly on

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Speaker 2: this particular topic. Jim. I realized that after last week's

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Speaker 2: podcast and the interview with Jill Evans, the national secretary

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Speaker 2: of the Women's Rights Party, I realized that we needed

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Speaker 2: to do some more on it, and there was only

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Speaker 2: one person who I thought was appropriate for that, and

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Speaker 2: that was some I say, with the best of intentions you.

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Speaker 3: Well, thank you for having me on Lighton, and thank

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Speaker 3: you for mimicking what the sort of thing my mother

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Speaker 3: would say.

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Speaker 2: So I appreciate I think you said that last time,

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Speaker 2: but that's all right. Your mother was Your mother was

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Speaker 2: worthy of it.

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Speaker 3: You know that old Eisenhower joke when he used to

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Speaker 3: get introduced, he'd say, I was a fabulous introduction. My

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Speaker 3: dad would love to have been here to hear it,

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Speaker 3: and my mom would have believed it beautiful.

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Speaker 2: From Jill Evan's press release, I want to quote we

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Speaker 2: stand with CEL on this fight as it heads toward

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Speaker 2: the High Court in Australia. We also encourage New Zealand

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Speaker 2: women and meant to take a stand against adding a

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Speaker 2: gender identity and expression into our human rights legislation, or

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Speaker 2: we will find ourselves in the same boat. Online submissions

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Speaker 2: to the Law Commission's review close five September, so this

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Speaker 2: is going to This is going to air on the

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Speaker 2: fourth of September, So we're pretty much out of time,

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Speaker 2: but not too late if you were, if you want

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Speaker 2: to involve now. When I ranged Jim and asked him

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Speaker 2: to come on, he was certainly agreeable. What he didn't

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Speaker 2: tell me was that he had penned the column for

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Speaker 2: the Spectator on this. It didn't surprise me when I

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Speaker 2: found out this morning that he'd done that, and I

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Speaker 2: read it and I thought, that is exactly how I

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Speaker 2: wanted to approach this with him, This particular case of

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Speaker 2: tickle versus giggle, which is he says in the headline

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Speaker 2: is no laughing matter. You also say that it is

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Speaker 2: a woke judgment. How would you like to get from

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Speaker 2: the beginning of this to the outcome of woke judgment?

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Speaker 3: So you know, when you're writing an op ed column

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Speaker 3: you have to generalize, So you know, obviously you have

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Speaker 3: a limited number of words. But as I said, the

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Speaker 3: gist of the criticism sort of goes in this ranked order.

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Speaker 3: The first problem or the politicians on the right side

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Speaker 3: of politics, so they never it seems like this is

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Speaker 3: a generalization, but basically the left comes in and they

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Speaker 3: make these amendments. Some of them are part of a

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Speaker 3: sort of culture war amendments, and then when ours, the

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Speaker 3: right of center, comes into power, they never repeal them.

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Speaker 3: They never repeal them. So one of the things is

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Speaker 3: that back in twenty thirteen, the Gillard Labor government here

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Speaker 3: amended the Sexual Discrimination Act and added the gender identity

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Speaker 3: as one of the protected sort of heads. So it

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Speaker 3: had been sex and a bunch of other things race,

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Speaker 3: but they added gender identity. And so we come forward

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Speaker 3: eleven years and as listeners may know, you had this

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Speaker 3: women's only app was called Giggle, and a gentleman who

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Speaker 3: had or was in the process of transitioning his slash

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Speaker 3: her I'm going to use the biological pronouns. His name

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Speaker 3: was Tickle, so you get this fantastic British farce case

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Speaker 3: name of Tickle and Giggle, And so he wanted onto

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Speaker 3: the app. The women's only app, and to make it workable,

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Speaker 3: the organizers of the app had sort of computer software

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Speaker 3: based on I think was a photo I don't really know.

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Speaker 3: They would make an initial take and if you didn't

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Speaker 3: like the take, then the woman who organized it would

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Speaker 3: herself look at your photo. And I think he got

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Speaker 3: through the first thing, but then she had a look

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Speaker 3: at the photo and he was excluded. And long story short,

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Speaker 3: eventually goes to the Human Rights Commission for not being

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Speaker 3: able to access this women's only app, and of course

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Speaker 3: there's no conciliation, and so it goes to a federal

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Speaker 3: court action basically claiming discrimination. And this was a first

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Speaker 3: instance judgment by a federal court judge, of course, one

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Speaker 3: appointed by the Liberal party, the right of center party

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Speaker 3: former Attorney General George Brandis, whose other judicial appointments included

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Speaker 3: choosing the wife of the retiring High Court judge to

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Speaker 3: be replacement in a world first that's never happened anywhere

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Speaker 3: else in the world. So it's firstly a political problem.

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Speaker 3: Our side just never does anything, and never they just

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Speaker 3: don't fight back. And then what I also said was

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Speaker 3: if you read the judgment often not often, but sometimes

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Speaker 3: you read a judgment where you look at the law

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Speaker 3: and you say, look, you could write a plausible judgment

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Speaker 3: either way, so you can't really excoriate this judge. It's plausible,

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Speaker 3: but it's also plausible that he could have gone the

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Speaker 3: other way. Predictably, he didn't. He sided it with Tickel,

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Speaker 3: and he ended up awarding ten thousand dollars in damages

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Speaker 3: and fifty thousand dollars in costs. So that's what Grover,

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Speaker 3: that's what Miss Grover has to pay. The legal materials

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Speaker 3: would have allowed the judge to decide for Giggle in

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Speaker 3: an equally plausible way. But if you were a predicting

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Speaker 3: going in, he would say he's going to decide with

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Speaker 3: the transgender person. So I can run you through the

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Speaker 3: basics if you want. I'm not sure what you're looking for, Laton.

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Speaker 2: I am. I am looking for it. I want to

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Speaker 2: want you to tell us, explain to us how this

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Speaker 2: process worked. Why the judge. You say that he had

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Speaker 2: a choice, and that and and that was my gut

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Speaker 2: reaction right at the very beginning, that he did not

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Speaker 2: have to as somebody suggested it to me in a letter,

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Speaker 2: he wasn't confined to ruling the way that he actually

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Speaker 2: did correct.

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Speaker 3: Well, I agree with you. So it's just it's a

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Speaker 3: it's an anti discrimination type piece of legislation, the Sexual

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Speaker 3: Discrimination Act, And basically the goal of this legislation, most

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Speaker 3: of it comes out in what the eighties and nineties

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Speaker 3: around the englishphere, and it's it's sort of to take

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Speaker 3: groups that you are perceived to have been historically disadvantaged,

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Speaker 3: women and to pass a statute that you know, blocks discrimination.

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Speaker 3: And so you have the normal sort of category, so

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Speaker 3: you can't discriminate against women, so you think of, you know,

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Speaker 3: equal pay for jobs, that sort of thing. And this

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Speaker 3: piece of legislation also has a what they call the

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Speaker 3: Special Measures provision. But basically you in effect you can

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Speaker 3: discriminate if your purpose is to achieve substantive equality between

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Speaker 3: and one of the groups is men and women. And

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Speaker 3: then when they made this, they made this amendment to

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Speaker 3: Labor Government twenty thirteen, they also included gender identity as

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Speaker 3: a protected head and so you could also discriminate for

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Speaker 3: the purpose of the substantive equality between different gender identities,

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Speaker 3: and so it doesn't count as discrimination if that's your goal.

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Speaker 3: And so that's the sort of basic setup of the

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Speaker 3: of the case. The basic argument for the applicant was

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Speaker 3: I was discriminated against based on my gender identity. They

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Speaker 3: responded effectively as saying something along the lines of, well,

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Speaker 3: you were discriminated against, but you were discriminated against because

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Speaker 3: of your sex, not your gender identity, and that's protected.

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Speaker 3: That's protected by I think I can't remember section sevent

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Speaker 3: d or something like that same statute. So that's those

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Speaker 3: are the arguments. The judge says, well, look on its

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Speaker 3: ordinary meaning sex is changeable. Well that's laughable, right, But

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Speaker 3: he points to case law, and in a way, the

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Speaker 3: judge is sort of signaling that, you know, I'm not

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Speaker 3: deciding this based on what I think sex is. I'm

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Speaker 3: deciding it based on case law. What he doesn't say

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Speaker 3: is the cases he cites are to do with pensions

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Speaker 3: and marriage, not the Sex Discrimination Act. I'm not really

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Speaker 3: this isn't really my area. But quick flip and it

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Speaker 3: looks like, to some extent context matters. The judge also says,

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Speaker 3: look this a skillered amendment in twenty thirteen that added

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Speaker 3: gender identity clearly points to a win for the applicant Techo.

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Speaker 3: The judge rejects the special measures defense. The section seventy

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Speaker 3: special measures. Defense to the argument by the respondent is

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Speaker 3: this is to achieve some sort of male female equality

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Speaker 3: so we can have our own spaces. And then you

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Speaker 3: get some constitutional arguments that relate to Australia's written constitution

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Speaker 3: about whether the federal government could do what it did

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Speaker 3: with the twenty thirteen Amendment. And one of the issues

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Speaker 3: that comes up tangentially is whether the International Convention on

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Speaker 3: Civil Emploical Rights Article twenty six. In Australia, the High

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Speaker 3: Court has basically gone crazy on federalism matters and basically

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Speaker 3: it lets the center legislate on anything. So we have

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Speaker 3: the most centralizing top court in the federalist world. Things

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Speaker 3: happen in Australia. It would never happen in Canada, Germany,

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Speaker 3: the US, any Switzerland, any country with real federalism. And

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Speaker 3: it's not because of the original design of our constitution

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Speaker 3: we just copied the Americans. It's because we have one

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Speaker 3: hundred years of High Court decision making that gives power

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Speaker 3: to the center at the expense of the states. And

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Speaker 3: two of the most egregious cases one was called Tasmanian

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Speaker 3: dam And so normally with a federal system you look

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Speaker 3: at the heads of powers, and you say, is there

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Speaker 3: any sort of head of power that allows the central

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Speaker 3: government to do this, or in Canada's case, allows the

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Speaker 3: provinces to do this, And in the American and Australian constitutions,

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Speaker 3: if it's not in the head of power list for

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Speaker 3: the Center, that stays with the states. Anyway, this Tasmanian

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Speaker 3: Damn case gave power to the Center because of the

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Speaker 3: external affairs power. So basically, if the federal government enters

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Speaker 3: into a treaty with another country on some topic, the

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Speaker 3: topic in the treaty allows the federal government to legis

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Speaker 3: this is ridiculous. It just destroys any sane notion of federalism.

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Speaker 3: And secondly, in the work choice, this case a bad,

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Speaker 3: bad sort of foray into destroying federalism by John Howard,

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Speaker 3: who was a centralist at heart. The High Court decided

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Speaker 3: that you could use the corporation power to give the

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Speaker 3: Center power over labor relations, even though labor relations had

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Speaker 3: not explicitly not been given to the Center, and even

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Speaker 3: though two constitutional referenda had said the Center doesn't get

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Speaker 3: this power. So long story short, the judge, and I

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Speaker 3: don't blame him for this part says, well, look, yes,

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Speaker 3: the Center did have the power to pass this law.

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Speaker 3: I'm skeptical about the claim that the International Convention on

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Speaker 3: Civil and Political Rights gave the power to the Center

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Speaker 3: on the gender identity because that article twenty six of

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Speaker 3: that treaty that doesn't actually mention gender identity. So the

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Speaker 3: judge says, well, it falls under other status. You know,

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Speaker 3: it lists all the things it doesn't list gender identity.

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Speaker 3: So what is going on is how how do you

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Speaker 3: approach the reading of a written text. And I'm originalist,

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Speaker 3: I think as with ordinary language, and you know most

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Speaker 3: legal linguistic philosophers agree with this, meaning is static, it

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Speaker 3: doesn't change. So if you say I'm going to meet

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Speaker 3: you at the cinema to your friend and you lose

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Speaker 3: yourself on you mean, her job is to try to

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Speaker 3: figure out my meaning, and she's her job is not

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Speaker 3: to sort of put the words in their most favorable

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Speaker 3: light and pick the cinema that has the reclining seat

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Speaker 3: and the nice glass of wine. My meaning was the

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Speaker 3: cinema I meant. And if she can't get a hold

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Speaker 3: of me, her job is to try to figure out

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Speaker 3: what I meant. And fifty years from now, it was

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Speaker 3: still the cinema that I meant. And that's bog standard

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Speaker 3: outside of law, you know, that's but it's it's lawyers

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Speaker 3: don't like that. They prefer to adopt a sort of

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Speaker 3: what sometimes called a living tree, or you know, the

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Speaker 3: text can change over time, the meaning.

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Speaker 2: And it always changes in their favor.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and so the judge said, on its ordinary meaning,

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Speaker 3: sex is changeable, well, on its ordinary meeting, almost no

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Speaker 3: one believes that, except for ten percent of activists. But

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Speaker 3: as I said, he pointed to the case law and

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Speaker 3: he said, you know, there's a thirty years of case law,

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Speaker 3: but it's it's more complicated than that. These were sort

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Speaker 3: of pensions cases and marriage cases.

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Speaker 2: All right, so what you what you what you're telling

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Speaker 2: us is that there is a history of case law,

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Speaker 2: but it has nothing to do with gender issues.

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Speaker 3: Well, it does have to do with gender issues, but

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Speaker 3: it doesn't have to do with the Sexual Discrimination Act.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's more pensions and stuff like that. And

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Speaker 3: on the on the twenty thirteen amendments, if you you know,

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Speaker 3: he said, you know, the he sort of suggests there

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Speaker 3: was an overt intention to redefine sex. But I don't

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Speaker 3: think that's true. If you look at answered to that amendment,

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Speaker 3: there's no mention of overtly redefining sex, and they explicitly

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Speaker 3: didn't do that as regards the special measures exclusion, and

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Speaker 3: in fact, the explanatory memorandum to that amendment said that

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Speaker 3: these new grounds were to be subject to the existing

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Speaker 3: provisions for special measures. In other words, you can discriminate

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Speaker 3: in order to achieve this sort of substantive equality between

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Speaker 3: men and women. So one of the underlying issues is

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Speaker 3: do these amendments apply So where you bring in gender identity,

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Speaker 3: do they apply to discrimination matters but not to special

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Speaker 3: measures or do they apply to both? And the judges

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Speaker 3: sort of assumes the answer to that question. I think

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Speaker 3: it's just as plausible. And in fact, if you look

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Speaker 3: at the intention of the Act back in twenty thirteen,

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Speaker 3: almost I think they almost zero of the submissions took

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Speaker 3: this amendment to have the meaning the judge gave it.

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Speaker 3: And so if you think that what the measure meant

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Speaker 3: was locked in in two thousand and thirty teen, and

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Speaker 3: again that is bog standard linguistic philosophy. But you know,

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Speaker 3: many judges, when it comes to constitutional matters, think that

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Speaker 3: in the course of updating constitutions, think the actual meaning

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Speaker 3: can change over time, which I think is almost incoherent.

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Speaker 3: You're not bound by what the understanding was in twenty thirteen,

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Speaker 3: but the understanding overwhelmingly was these amendments aren't going to

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Speaker 3: apply to the special measures, which is between men and women.

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Speaker 3: And back in twenty thirteen, it's pretty clear what the

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Speaker 3: meaning of sex was. And again when they put in

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Speaker 3: gender identity, they didn't explicitly deal with the special measures,

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Speaker 3: which is indicative of something. Anyway, I think a judge

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Speaker 3: had plenty of material to decide for a giggle. Now,

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Speaker 3: are there other ways you that prover could have dealt

379
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Speaker 3: with this? Yes, she could have taken the app offshore

380
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Speaker 3: and you know, based it in the US, and then

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Speaker 3: dared dared the sort of government here to deal with

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Speaker 3: an offshore app. There's some scope to think you might

383
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Speaker 3: have played around with how the sort of winnowing was done.

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Speaker 3: Maybe have an app that anybody can sign up to

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Speaker 3: and then invite applications based on I don't know your

386
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Speaker 3: chromosomes for sort of a club like status. Because if

387
00:24:29,173 --> 00:24:32,733
Speaker 3: the app is for the public, and that's what the

388
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Speaker 3: judge held and that's plausible, then you're bound by the

389
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Speaker 3: Sex Discrimination Act, no exemption. But if it's like a

390
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Speaker 3: private club, there's an exception for private clubs. So that's

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Speaker 3: why you can have men's only private clubs and women's

392
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Speaker 3: only private clubs. I mean, there might have been ways

393
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Speaker 3: to set this up that would have made it harder

394
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Speaker 3: for Tickle, but even the way they did set it up.

395
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Speaker 3: And to some extent, this is a political battle because

396
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Speaker 3: the reaction over here has been vociferously against what they're doing,

397
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Speaker 3: or sorry, vociferously against this judgment. And you know, you

398
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Speaker 3: wonder to what extent are they are they running a

399
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Speaker 3: political battle here to simply embarrass people who want to

400
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Speaker 3: say that women can't even have an app where they

401
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Speaker 3: can just talk to themselves. Some man who is transitioning

402
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Speaker 3: so that he can be deemed whatever you call a

403
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Speaker 3: transgender woman, you can't keep them out. And I think

404
00:25:36,533 --> 00:25:38,853
Speaker 3: if you pulled the public on this, it would run

405
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Speaker 3: eighty five to ninety fever of giggle.

406
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Speaker 2: I think, I think, I think you're right. I want

407
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Speaker 2: to I want to just take a sidebar here, Holly

408
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Speaker 2: law and Smith. Do you know the name? Yep, Holly

409
00:25:51,213 --> 00:25:54,613
Speaker 2: Lawfin Smith. I didn't know anything about her until until today,

410
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Speaker 2: to be honest, But she she was a she's a

411
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Speaker 2: Kiwi and she's been what she's been studying and graduating

412
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Speaker 2: from Australia after the University of Otago, and she is

413
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Speaker 2: a where it an associate professor in political philosophy at

414
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Speaker 2: the University of Melbourne and she deals in areas and

415
00:26:17,933 --> 00:26:23,453
Speaker 2: a number of areas political philosophy, feminism, climate ethics. Love

416
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Speaker 2: to have a battle with her on that and sex

417
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Speaker 2: and gender. Now that fairly well tells me what her

418
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Speaker 2: richests are and what her views views are, except she

419
00:26:34,893 --> 00:26:38,933
Speaker 2: is This is a case of strange bedfellows that I

420
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Speaker 2: run into sometimes and I'm always amused by it, where

421
00:26:42,773 --> 00:26:47,853
Speaker 2: she has pender piece along the same lines that you have,

422
00:26:48,013 --> 00:26:53,373
Speaker 2: maybe using slightly different arguments, but is definitely against the decision.

423
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Speaker 2: Now she is a feminist and an active feminist, so

424
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Speaker 2: one presumes that it's like coming almost a full circle

425
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Speaker 2: with promoting women and there and their progress in life

426
00:27:09,333 --> 00:27:12,493
Speaker 2: and their security and the financial arrangements and all of

427
00:27:12,533 --> 00:27:15,573
Speaker 2: the stuff that we're familiar with and finding that that's

428
00:27:15,613 --> 00:27:18,613
Speaker 2: already is now under assault and has toy group.

429
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Speaker 3: So you do get strange bedfellows I mean when people,

430
00:27:23,533 --> 00:27:26,533
Speaker 3: when people's views are based on principle, sometimes you'll get

431
00:27:26,533 --> 00:27:30,213
Speaker 3: to an agreement where you wouldn't normally expect it. And

432
00:27:30,693 --> 00:27:33,493
Speaker 3: I have heard her speak, and I have also been

433
00:27:33,533 --> 00:27:37,173
Speaker 3: in a room where what you might describe as a

434
00:27:37,333 --> 00:27:42,573
Speaker 3: radical lesbian said, the only allies we have are conservatives,

435
00:27:42,853 --> 00:27:45,533
Speaker 3: And she said, I find out you hard to believe,

436
00:27:45,573 --> 00:27:48,853
Speaker 3: but it's true. So if you think that sex isn't well,

437
00:27:48,893 --> 00:27:50,133
Speaker 3: let's put it this way. If you go back to

438
00:27:50,173 --> 00:27:53,373
Speaker 3: the famous Scottish Enlightenment philosopher David Hume, he wanted to

439
00:27:53,413 --> 00:27:55,813
Speaker 3: distinguish between things that are imposed on you by the

440
00:27:55,853 --> 00:27:59,173
Speaker 3: external cause of world right, it's not mine dependent. You

441
00:27:59,213 --> 00:28:03,253
Speaker 3: can't wish it into existence like gravity. You know, you

442
00:28:03,333 --> 00:28:05,573
Speaker 3: might be in a class with a French deconstruction as

443
00:28:05,573 --> 00:28:07,773
Speaker 3: he says gravity is socially constructive, but you got to

444
00:28:07,853 --> 00:28:10,733
Speaker 3: the eighth and they never jump. So we all believe

445
00:28:10,813 --> 00:28:13,413
Speaker 3: that some things are imposed on us. And if you

446
00:28:13,533 --> 00:28:16,613
Speaker 3: think that sex is imposed on us by the external

447
00:28:16,653 --> 00:28:20,493
Speaker 3: world right, and it's a function of millions of years

448
00:28:20,493 --> 00:28:24,373
Speaker 3: of billions of years of evolution. Really now, of course

449
00:28:24,373 --> 00:28:27,333
Speaker 3: I want to leave aside the very very very small

450
00:28:27,413 --> 00:28:30,973
Speaker 3: number of cases where you're talking about intersex and xx

451
00:28:31,093 --> 00:28:34,893
Speaker 3: Y chromosomes or x y where the y chromosome doesn't

452
00:28:34,893 --> 00:28:40,333
Speaker 3: fire properly and so the person has the other reproductive organs.

453
00:28:40,493 --> 00:28:43,373
Speaker 3: Those are all Leave those aside. They're complicated. Although I

454
00:28:43,373 --> 00:28:46,653
Speaker 3: wouldn't let them participate in the Olympics just as on

455
00:28:46,693 --> 00:28:50,013
Speaker 3: a really utilitarian basis. So those are all very sad.

456
00:28:50,493 --> 00:28:57,533
Speaker 3: Leave those aside for people transitioning. You know, here's the question,

457
00:28:57,693 --> 00:29:00,133
Speaker 3: do you become a woman because you take lots of

458
00:29:00,213 --> 00:29:03,613
Speaker 3: drugs that only have been invented in the last thirty years,

459
00:29:03,973 --> 00:29:06,653
Speaker 3: and then you have you know, invasive surgery that takes

460
00:29:06,693 --> 00:29:08,693
Speaker 3: the you know, that cuts off your reproductive works and

461
00:29:08,773 --> 00:29:12,093
Speaker 3: sort of mimics what you know the other sex has.

462
00:29:12,133 --> 00:29:14,853
Speaker 3: And you know, the basic answer on the left of

463
00:29:14,893 --> 00:29:17,413
Speaker 3: politics these days, and with lots of people on the

464
00:29:17,493 --> 00:29:21,013
Speaker 3: right is yes. Now for most of us who think

465
00:29:21,293 --> 00:29:26,133
Speaker 3: that how you want to be seen doesn't matter, it's

466
00:29:26,133 --> 00:29:29,653
Speaker 3: a function of a fact about the external cause of world.

467
00:29:30,333 --> 00:29:32,453
Speaker 3: You know, here's the thing. If you were a seventeen

468
00:29:32,493 --> 00:29:35,053
Speaker 3: year old and you wanted to play twelve and under

469
00:29:35,133 --> 00:29:37,733
Speaker 3: rugby because you identified as a twelve year old, no

470
00:29:37,773 --> 00:29:39,773
Speaker 3: one would let you do that we would say, Look,

471
00:29:39,893 --> 00:29:42,053
Speaker 3: you might want to be a twelve year old, you

472
00:29:42,133 --> 00:29:44,613
Speaker 3: might see yourself as a twelve year old, but you're seventeen,

473
00:29:44,653 --> 00:29:47,133
Speaker 3: and that's a fact about the world. Or if you

474
00:29:47,173 --> 00:29:49,373
Speaker 3: were a Caucasian and you wanted to be a Black

475
00:29:49,413 --> 00:29:52,413
Speaker 3: American or let's say Elizabeth Floor and a Cherokee Indian,

476
00:29:53,053 --> 00:29:55,533
Speaker 3: what you want and how you see yourself as neither

477
00:29:55,573 --> 00:29:58,693
Speaker 3: here nor there. There's a fact about the world. And

478
00:29:58,773 --> 00:30:03,053
Speaker 3: for some reason, when it comes to sex, the transgender lobby,

479
00:30:03,093 --> 00:30:06,773
Speaker 3: which is effectively saying and it uses these sort of

480
00:30:07,453 --> 00:30:11,853
Speaker 3: I won't call them a you, but these sort of opaque,

481
00:30:12,413 --> 00:30:17,173
Speaker 3: amorphous masking sort of slogans, I'm trapped in the wrong body.

482
00:30:17,173 --> 00:30:19,933
Speaker 3: What does that even mean? And what does it mean

483
00:30:20,013 --> 00:30:23,373
Speaker 3: to say that how you see yourself in your soul

484
00:30:23,533 --> 00:30:28,053
Speaker 3: is sometimes trumping external reality. Well, you know, I don't

485
00:30:28,053 --> 00:30:30,293
Speaker 3: believe it, and there's a lot of people who don't

486
00:30:30,293 --> 00:30:33,693
Speaker 3: believe it. I don't care personally how someone lives their

487
00:30:33,733 --> 00:30:37,053
Speaker 3: life once you're eighteen, do what you want. I just

488
00:30:37,093 --> 00:30:39,013
Speaker 3: don't care. I'm a mom to live and let live

489
00:30:39,093 --> 00:30:43,053
Speaker 3: sort of guy. But when you start wanting to force

490
00:30:43,093 --> 00:30:45,493
Speaker 3: your way onto women's sports teams, or you want to

491
00:30:45,533 --> 00:30:51,053
Speaker 3: start forcing your way onto women's only apps, then the

492
00:30:51,173 --> 00:30:54,853
Speaker 3: facts of the world matter. It's like the ridiculousness around

493
00:30:54,933 --> 00:30:59,293
Speaker 3: the anguish er these things. We're letting male rapists identify

494
00:30:59,333 --> 00:31:02,133
Speaker 3: as female and sending them to female prisons, and that

495
00:31:02,253 --> 00:31:06,373
Speaker 3: is happening. It's ridiculous, right, So that's the core question.

496
00:31:06,453 --> 00:31:11,613
Speaker 3: And so at some point the truth the imposed on

497
00:31:11,693 --> 00:31:16,213
Speaker 3: all of us humans. Truth about the world trump's, however sad,

498
00:31:16,253 --> 00:31:20,573
Speaker 3: it might be how someone sees him or herself. So

499
00:31:20,733 --> 00:31:22,973
Speaker 3: you know, I'm a living, live god. I don't really

500
00:31:23,053 --> 00:31:26,533
Speaker 3: care how people live. But if someone tells me what

501
00:31:26,733 --> 00:31:28,973
Speaker 3: pronoun I have to use, I won't do it. I

502
00:31:29,013 --> 00:31:31,293
Speaker 3: won't do it because they're asking me to lie about

503
00:31:31,333 --> 00:31:33,373
Speaker 3: the world, and I'm not prepared to lie about the world.

504
00:31:33,853 --> 00:31:36,093
Speaker 3: I'm prepared to be nice. I'd higher though I don't

505
00:31:36,093 --> 00:31:38,613
Speaker 3: really care. I don't care how they dress. I don't

506
00:31:38,653 --> 00:31:40,293
Speaker 3: care about any of that stuff. But if they start

507
00:31:40,413 --> 00:31:44,813
Speaker 3: forcing themselves onto groups, then you know, you have to

508
00:31:44,853 --> 00:31:46,413
Speaker 3: make a call about how you see the world. So

509
00:31:46,493 --> 00:31:51,453
Speaker 3: I agree with the Lawford Smith's and the sort of

510
00:31:52,213 --> 00:31:57,333
Speaker 3: In some cases, you know, hardline lesbian feminists, they are correct.

511
00:31:57,773 --> 00:32:00,253
Speaker 3: These are you know, for the purposes in which we're

512
00:32:00,293 --> 00:32:02,813
Speaker 3: talking about, these are men. And if you want a

513
00:32:02,813 --> 00:32:09,693
Speaker 3: sports example, the American women's soccer team, which one you know,

514
00:32:10,093 --> 00:32:12,933
Speaker 3: historically was winning most of the world championships, well, if

515
00:32:12,973 --> 00:32:15,093
Speaker 3: you go back five or six years, they were just

516
00:32:15,413 --> 00:32:21,253
Speaker 3: basically undefeated. Well they played a Dallas boys high school team,

517
00:32:21,293 --> 00:32:22,853
Speaker 3: I think it was fifteen and under and they go,

518
00:32:23,093 --> 00:32:26,733
Speaker 3: they got crushed. You know, so biologically speaking, it's a

519
00:32:26,773 --> 00:32:31,413
Speaker 3: fact about the world. Statistically, men are bigger, faster, stronger,

520
00:32:32,013 --> 00:32:34,213
Speaker 3: and that's just true. Now. You know, if you take

521
00:32:34,253 --> 00:32:36,333
Speaker 3: the outlawers at each end of the distribution, you can

522
00:32:36,373 --> 00:32:39,613
Speaker 3: find women who are stronger than men. But the best

523
00:32:39,613 --> 00:32:43,733
Speaker 3: man crushes the best woman at any sort of physical activity.

524
00:32:43,733 --> 00:32:47,653
Speaker 3: And so it's completely unfair to let men who've had

525
00:32:47,693 --> 00:32:52,133
Speaker 3: the advantage of testosterone and you know, faster muscle twitch,

526
00:32:53,053 --> 00:32:56,253
Speaker 3: who transition and have a lifetime advantage anyway, you can't

527
00:32:56,293 --> 00:32:59,613
Speaker 3: let them play women's sports. You get these ridiculous results

528
00:32:59,613 --> 00:33:02,053
Speaker 3: where where you know, women have spent their whole life

529
00:33:02,093 --> 00:33:04,533
Speaker 3: training and some guy who's he's not even a good

530
00:33:04,573 --> 00:33:08,773
Speaker 3: male athlete, you know, moves over to the women's petition

531
00:33:08,813 --> 00:33:12,053
Speaker 3: and cleans up. It's laughable, and no one would have

532
00:33:12,053 --> 00:33:14,773
Speaker 3: believed it twenty years ago. And so it's in that

533
00:33:14,893 --> 00:33:19,293
Speaker 3: vein of thinking. I think that the claim that on

534
00:33:19,373 --> 00:33:22,253
Speaker 3: its ordinary meaning, sex is changeable, which the judge said,

535
00:33:23,213 --> 00:33:26,373
Speaker 3: is just false. Now you know, he underlines it by saying, well,

536
00:33:26,413 --> 00:33:29,493
Speaker 3: I'm sort of controlled by this case, love. But I

537
00:33:29,533 --> 00:33:32,733
Speaker 3: think that's debatable, and I think it's debatable whether the

538
00:33:32,773 --> 00:33:38,333
Speaker 3: special measures exemptions back him up. I think the way

539
00:33:38,373 --> 00:33:41,573
Speaker 3: he approached the Article twenty six of the ic CPR,

540
00:33:41,613 --> 00:33:44,893
Speaker 3: which linked to the constitutional question, I think, you know,

541
00:33:44,973 --> 00:33:49,293
Speaker 3: that looks wrong to me. So again, I'm not saying

542
00:33:49,333 --> 00:33:51,893
Speaker 3: that there was no legal materials for this judge to

543
00:33:51,973 --> 00:33:54,893
Speaker 3: come to the view he did, and again I would

544
00:33:54,933 --> 00:33:57,973
Speaker 3: have bet he would, because you know, the lawyerly cast

545
00:33:58,493 --> 00:33:59,773
Speaker 3: is very left wing these days.

546
00:34:00,173 --> 00:34:03,693
Speaker 2: Let's let's just say that you would you were appearing

547
00:34:03,693 --> 00:34:08,933
Speaker 2: for the defendant in this case, would you have handled

548
00:34:08,933 --> 00:34:13,173
Speaker 2: it any differently? Would you have would you have would

549
00:34:12,733 --> 00:34:16,333
Speaker 2: prod the judge? I?

550
00:34:16,333 --> 00:34:20,053
Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, it depends what the brief is.

551
00:34:20,093 --> 00:34:24,653
Speaker 3: If the brief is too you never criticize. I don't

552
00:34:24,653 --> 00:34:27,253
Speaker 3: want to criticize the way any anybody runs the case.

553
00:34:27,253 --> 00:34:29,013
Speaker 3: I think they had a case that that you know,

554
00:34:29,093 --> 00:34:31,733
Speaker 3: the judge as they ran it could have decided for them.

555
00:34:31,973 --> 00:34:33,653
Speaker 3: Could you have run the case in a different way

556
00:34:33,653 --> 00:34:36,853
Speaker 3: that might have upped your odds probably, but maybe they

557
00:34:36,853 --> 00:34:39,493
Speaker 3: didn't want to do that. Maybe they partly this is

558
00:34:39,533 --> 00:34:43,613
Speaker 3: a political battle, and you know, they have illuminated for

559
00:34:43,693 --> 00:34:47,853
Speaker 3: all of us the craziness of what's going on right now.

560
00:34:48,453 --> 00:34:51,773
Speaker 3: And it is crazy. And well, here's the question. Here's

561
00:34:51,773 --> 00:34:53,893
Speaker 3: the question when when you know, if Peter Dutton wins

562
00:34:53,893 --> 00:34:56,373
Speaker 3: an next election, when he comes into power, he going

563
00:34:56,453 --> 00:34:59,213
Speaker 3: to amend the Sex Discrimination Act and get rid of

564
00:34:59,253 --> 00:35:00,453
Speaker 3: gender identity.

565
00:35:00,013 --> 00:35:04,813
Speaker 2: Which would won't Well, you got a bloody sight more

566
00:35:04,893 --> 00:35:07,813
Speaker 2: chance of that happening under Dutton than you did under

567
00:35:07,933 --> 00:35:09,973
Speaker 2: underto in the Morelson.

568
00:35:10,493 --> 00:35:13,773
Speaker 3: Yes, that's true, and maybe that's right because I think

569
00:35:13,813 --> 00:35:18,293
Speaker 3: after the Voice referendum over here the Federal Liberal Party

570
00:35:18,293 --> 00:35:21,973
Speaker 3: has got just the you know, the traces of a backbone.

571
00:35:23,293 --> 00:35:27,053
Speaker 3: But there is a political battle going on as well

572
00:35:27,093 --> 00:35:30,773
Speaker 3: as as the sort of case law. What people need

573
00:35:30,813 --> 00:35:34,293
Speaker 3: to remember is that fifty years ago lawyers as a cast,

574
00:35:34,493 --> 00:35:39,293
Speaker 3: the sort of median lawyer was significantly to the political

575
00:35:39,373 --> 00:35:43,293
Speaker 3: right of the median voter, and today it's way worse

576
00:35:43,333 --> 00:35:45,773
Speaker 3: the other way. So you know there's data in the

577
00:35:45,853 --> 00:35:48,813
Speaker 3: US because donations to the political parties is a public matter,

578
00:35:49,373 --> 00:35:52,853
Speaker 3: and they just know that the lawyerly cast, so lawyers

579
00:35:52,853 --> 00:35:56,773
Speaker 3: as a group are significantly to the left of the

580
00:35:56,813 --> 00:36:00,253
Speaker 3: median voter. We saw it in Australia with the Voice proposal.

581
00:36:01,093 --> 00:36:03,653
Speaker 3: Almost all of the retired top judges came out in

582
00:36:03,693 --> 00:36:06,493
Speaker 3: favor of it. The Law Society is the Bar Council.

583
00:36:07,013 --> 00:36:09,853
Speaker 3: This was a proposal that was it's sixty one thirty

584
00:36:09,933 --> 00:36:13,173
Speaker 3: nine no. There were one or two ex judges, including

585
00:36:13,213 --> 00:36:16,093
Speaker 3: a former High Court judge, who came out for no.

586
00:36:17,013 --> 00:36:18,973
Speaker 3: But then there were other High Court judges that came

587
00:36:18,973 --> 00:36:22,213
Speaker 3: out for yes, and most judges came out for us,

588
00:36:22,213 --> 00:36:26,133
Speaker 3: and all of the lawyerly bodies and so lawyers who

589
00:36:26,173 --> 00:36:29,133
Speaker 3: have been subjected to twenty years of legal education that

590
00:36:29,293 --> 00:36:35,413
Speaker 3: is incredibly politically correct and basques and identity politics. Not surprisingly,

591
00:36:35,813 --> 00:36:40,333
Speaker 3: the lawyers that they are producing, on average are pretty

592
00:36:40,373 --> 00:36:42,733
Speaker 3: left wing, and not left wing in the old fashioned

593
00:36:42,733 --> 00:36:46,093
Speaker 3: Dennis Healey sort of redistribution of wealth sense. You know,

594
00:36:46,133 --> 00:36:48,213
Speaker 3: that's the old fashioned labor. I have a bit of

595
00:36:48,533 --> 00:36:51,453
Speaker 3: sympathy for that. I think they get comparative advantage wrong

596
00:36:51,533 --> 00:36:53,813
Speaker 3: and things like that, But I have sympathy for that.

597
00:36:54,213 --> 00:36:57,973
Speaker 3: This is the sort of human rights brigade, social justice

598
00:36:58,213 --> 00:37:00,693
Speaker 3: iteration of the Labor Party, where they don't really care

599
00:37:00,773 --> 00:37:04,613
Speaker 3: about the working class. What they care about are basking

600
00:37:04,693 --> 00:37:09,133
Speaker 3: in social justice self righteousness, and lawyers lap that up.

601
00:37:09,173 --> 00:37:11,213
Speaker 3: And one of the things it also does is it

602
00:37:11,293 --> 00:37:15,693
Speaker 3: tends to give unelected judges a lot of power, and

603
00:37:15,813 --> 00:37:19,973
Speaker 3: so you know, I it's pretty predictable what way most

604
00:37:20,013 --> 00:37:21,453
Speaker 3: judges are going to go. It's a little different in

605
00:37:21,533 --> 00:37:24,893
Speaker 3: the US because there's still it's such a big country.

606
00:37:25,573 --> 00:37:30,373
Speaker 3: There's you're still able to pick some some conservative judges

607
00:37:30,413 --> 00:37:34,093
Speaker 3: and lawyers. They're pretty they're pretty minority, but there's enough

608
00:37:34,093 --> 00:37:38,053
Speaker 3: of them to staff the federal circuit courts, and in

609
00:37:38,093 --> 00:37:41,653
Speaker 3: some states in the South there's lots of them. It's

610
00:37:41,653 --> 00:37:43,773
Speaker 3: a lot harder in Australia to find those people who

611
00:37:43,773 --> 00:37:46,893
Speaker 3: are there, but they're harder to find, and I imagine

612
00:37:46,893 --> 00:37:49,213
Speaker 3: in New Zealand it's desperately hard to find those people.

613
00:37:49,253 --> 00:37:51,853
Speaker 3: When I look at your top court, it's just it's

614
00:37:51,933 --> 00:37:53,893
Speaker 3: just I just be in despair over there.

615
00:37:57,173 --> 00:38:01,173
Speaker 2: What you would be in despair. I've shopped around a

616
00:38:01,173 --> 00:38:05,053
Speaker 2: little and found some found some fellow travelers. But there's

617
00:38:05,053 --> 00:38:08,533
Speaker 2: plenty of people from people. There are plenty of the

618
00:38:08,653 --> 00:38:13,013
Speaker 2: individuals from from the side that you're discussing. You mentioned

619
00:38:13,053 --> 00:38:17,693
Speaker 2: pronouns a moment ago. Two things. One is I understand

620
00:38:17,733 --> 00:38:19,653
Speaker 2: that there was a discussion of the sporting on the radio.

621
00:38:19,773 --> 00:38:23,693
Speaker 2: I didn't hear it. With regard to kids, kids, little

622
00:38:23,773 --> 00:38:27,333
Speaker 2: kids going into not sure where there were school libraries,

623
00:38:27,373 --> 00:38:30,573
Speaker 2: probably it was, but into the libraries, the public libraries anyway,

624
00:38:31,253 --> 00:38:35,973
Speaker 2: and being asked what pronouns they wanted to be referred

625
00:38:36,013 --> 00:38:40,893
Speaker 2: to or by these are little kids, it's just nuts.

626
00:38:41,733 --> 00:38:45,173
Speaker 2: The other did you want to comment.

627
00:38:45,493 --> 00:38:48,133
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know, I went to State schools in

628
00:38:48,173 --> 00:38:53,013
Speaker 3: Toronto and we spent about three years from about grades

629
00:38:54,333 --> 00:38:58,493
Speaker 3: four to seven learning real grammar. It was incredibly boring,

630
00:38:58,533 --> 00:39:01,093
Speaker 3: but you had to underline every word in every sentence

631
00:39:01,093 --> 00:39:03,893
Speaker 3: and say what it was. And Jeron's participles, you know,

632
00:39:03,893 --> 00:39:05,773
Speaker 3: I knew more at grammar when I was eleven than

633
00:39:05,813 --> 00:39:08,893
Speaker 3: I know now. Probably I may know a lot. So

634
00:39:09,173 --> 00:39:11,853
Speaker 3: when we learn pronouns, we learned them as an item

635
00:39:11,893 --> 00:39:15,493
Speaker 3: of grammar. Today, the kids you'd come to, you know,

636
00:39:15,573 --> 00:39:19,413
Speaker 3: the best law school on Queensland. The overwhelming preponderance of

637
00:39:19,453 --> 00:39:22,133
Speaker 3: them don't know any grammar, so it seems weird that

638
00:39:22,333 --> 00:39:24,333
Speaker 3: the only way they get exposed to this idea of

639
00:39:24,413 --> 00:39:28,133
Speaker 3: pronouns is in a sort of social justice activist sense.

640
00:39:28,293 --> 00:39:30,133
Speaker 3: I mean, so they go to the library, they don't

641
00:39:30,173 --> 00:39:32,293
Speaker 3: they probably don't even know what a pronoun is in

642
00:39:32,373 --> 00:39:35,493
Speaker 3: terms of grammar, but they can trot out the sort

643
00:39:35,533 --> 00:39:39,373
Speaker 3: of him whatever. I mean, everyone knows what you are

644
00:39:39,373 --> 00:39:42,093
Speaker 3: when they look at you pretty much right away. And

645
00:39:42,493 --> 00:39:45,653
Speaker 3: so you're again you're asking people to deny a fact

646
00:39:45,733 --> 00:39:49,053
Speaker 3: about the external cause of world to further a political

647
00:39:49,053 --> 00:39:53,173
Speaker 3: agenda or not to hurt someone's feelings. But at some point,

648
00:39:53,253 --> 00:39:57,213
Speaker 3: hurt feelings lose to truth about the world. And as

649
00:39:57,253 --> 00:39:59,493
Speaker 3: long as people are just you know, going on and

650
00:39:59,533 --> 00:40:02,013
Speaker 3: leading the lives they want, leaving me alone, I don't

651
00:40:02,013 --> 00:40:05,533
Speaker 3: really care about their They can lead the life however

652
00:40:05,573 --> 00:40:08,453
Speaker 3: they want. I'm a pretty lazy for a guy, not

653
00:40:08,533 --> 00:40:10,533
Speaker 3: going to lie about the world for them, and I'm

654
00:40:10,533 --> 00:40:12,573
Speaker 3: not going to let them do things that are unfair

655
00:40:12,653 --> 00:40:15,653
Speaker 3: in terms of sports or you know, I think women

656
00:40:15,693 --> 00:40:18,813
Speaker 3: should be able to have a women's only space. I mean,

657
00:40:18,933 --> 00:40:21,573
Speaker 3: I watch sports with mostly guys, that's a sort of

658
00:40:21,573 --> 00:40:24,373
Speaker 3: a men's only space. So I don't really think it's

659
00:40:25,013 --> 00:40:28,173
Speaker 3: too much to ask, and so I tend to agree

660
00:40:28,213 --> 00:40:32,373
Speaker 3: with it, as you said, bizarrely with the sort of

661
00:40:32,533 --> 00:40:35,093
Speaker 3: hard line some of us, I think, would.

662
00:40:34,693 --> 00:40:40,613
Speaker 2: You when would you say the current pronoun game came into.

663
00:40:40,453 --> 00:40:44,653
Speaker 3: Play, I don't know. I mean you go back ten years,

664
00:40:44,693 --> 00:40:47,133
Speaker 3: I don't really remember. I remember people used to joke

665
00:40:47,173 --> 00:40:49,573
Speaker 3: about the next thing. You know, they're going to want

666
00:40:49,613 --> 00:40:52,413
Speaker 3: men to be able to use women's toilet, Like twenty thirteen,

667
00:40:52,453 --> 00:40:56,453
Speaker 3: I was on sabbatically the US lastcome. Everyone political left,

668
00:40:56,453 --> 00:40:59,093
Speaker 3: political right. Everyone joked, you know, but they meant it

669
00:40:59,133 --> 00:41:02,013
Speaker 3: as a this is satire to show you know that

670
00:41:02,133 --> 00:41:04,933
Speaker 3: this couldn't possibly happen. But this this is a sort

671
00:41:04,933 --> 00:41:09,013
Speaker 3: of a joke, And now it's true. It's true because

672
00:41:09,053 --> 00:41:12,613
Speaker 3: people won't say, look, women don't want you to come

673
00:41:12,653 --> 00:41:16,653
Speaker 3: into the washroom toilet with them, And the fact that

674
00:41:16,813 --> 00:41:18,653
Speaker 3: you know this is going to hurt yourself image is

675
00:41:18,733 --> 00:41:21,933
Speaker 3: neither here nor there. So we live in a culture

676
00:41:21,933 --> 00:41:24,613
Speaker 3: where hurt feelings are taking of offense.

677
00:41:24,853 --> 00:41:25,653
Speaker 2: Well, while you.

678
00:41:25,613 --> 00:41:29,133
Speaker 3: Were your own subjective sense in yourself, Trump's truth, and

679
00:41:29,173 --> 00:41:31,013
Speaker 3: I just think we have to fight back against that.

680
00:41:31,853 --> 00:41:34,893
Speaker 2: While you were talking, I made my way two steps too.

681
00:41:35,013 --> 00:41:37,093
Speaker 2: I got a long lead on the headphones to the

682
00:41:37,133 --> 00:41:40,693
Speaker 2: bookcase and pulled off a book that I bought a

683
00:41:40,733 --> 00:41:44,453
Speaker 2: few years ago, The Secret Life of Pronouns. What Our

684
00:41:44,493 --> 00:41:48,373
Speaker 2: Words Say About Us, published in twenty eleven, so I

685
00:41:48,413 --> 00:41:52,373
Speaker 2: would have bought it in about twenty twelve in Sydney.

686
00:41:52,693 --> 00:41:55,893
Speaker 2: It wasn't around them this, I mean, this is a

687
00:41:55,933 --> 00:41:59,333
Speaker 2: straight up book on pronouns, real profound, you know, and

688
00:42:00,253 --> 00:42:03,813
Speaker 2: since then that book is virtually relevant anyway.

689
00:42:04,493 --> 00:42:07,453
Speaker 3: Leaving it, I mean, I agree with you. I mean,

690
00:42:07,733 --> 00:42:10,453
Speaker 3: I'd be happy if if we actually had an education

691
00:42:10,573 --> 00:42:13,773
Speaker 3: system in Australia that, you know, the the latest results

692
00:42:13,773 --> 00:42:15,693
Speaker 3: are appalling. We used to, oh my god, here we

693
00:42:15,733 --> 00:42:18,573
Speaker 3: were sort of below Kazakhstan, and now we aspired being

694
00:42:18,613 --> 00:42:22,013
Speaker 3: below Kazakhstan. And I off the cuff, I would bet

695
00:42:22,053 --> 00:42:24,053
Speaker 3: that Australia does better than New Zealand. One of the

696
00:42:24,093 --> 00:42:25,813
Speaker 3: things that I hate it when I lived in New

697
00:42:25,893 --> 00:42:28,373
Speaker 3: Zealand was that I can't even remember what you call it,

698
00:42:28,493 --> 00:42:33,373
Speaker 3: n C whatever. Then yeah, they just the continuous assessment

699
00:42:33,453 --> 00:42:36,733
Speaker 3: and it's just all fluff. And so you know, I

700
00:42:37,453 --> 00:42:38,573
Speaker 3: doute New Zealand.

701
00:42:38,253 --> 00:42:42,533
Speaker 2: Does well under the under the current administration, they're making

702
00:42:42,973 --> 00:42:46,493
Speaker 2: positive moves in that in the direction of fixing fixing

703
00:42:46,533 --> 00:42:49,293
Speaker 2: that that's goods. Maths is the first is the first

704
00:42:49,293 --> 00:42:54,533
Speaker 2: subject to get a hiding. There's one thing that you

705
00:42:54,573 --> 00:42:57,093
Speaker 2: didn't mention when we were talking about the case, and

706
00:42:57,133 --> 00:43:01,813
Speaker 2: that was Justice Bromwich gave leave to the current Sex

707
00:43:01,893 --> 00:43:05,093
Speaker 2: Discrimination Commissioner to appear as a friend of the Court

708
00:43:05,693 --> 00:43:09,293
Speaker 2: and then basically and then basically did all of her

709
00:43:09,453 --> 00:43:13,413
Speaker 2: submissions on the interpretive questions.

710
00:43:14,053 --> 00:43:17,093
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know that that that happens in cases.

711
00:43:17,133 --> 00:43:21,213
Speaker 3: People can apply to to be amicus curia friends of

712
00:43:21,293 --> 00:43:23,973
Speaker 3: the court and h But as soon as the judge

713
00:43:23,973 --> 00:43:26,053
Speaker 3: did that, I suspect that everyone knew which way the

714
00:43:26,133 --> 00:43:27,133
Speaker 3: decision was going to.

715
00:43:27,053 --> 00:43:28,893
Speaker 2: Go, of course, And that's the that's the part. It

716
00:43:28,893 --> 00:43:31,293
Speaker 2: was only two weeks ago that we had on this

717
00:43:31,333 --> 00:43:35,653
Speaker 2: podcast the newly appointed brand newly appointed. He hasn't yet

718
00:43:35,733 --> 00:43:39,493
Speaker 2: taken up the position Stephen Rainbow, who was the new

719
00:43:40,133 --> 00:43:44,293
Speaker 2: Human Rights Commissioner, and there's a new there's two other

720
00:43:44,573 --> 00:43:47,773
Speaker 2: two other new commissioners on the on the board and

721
00:43:48,093 --> 00:43:51,053
Speaker 2: there was a lot of feedback from that that particular discussion.

722
00:43:51,053 --> 00:43:53,973
Speaker 2: In fact, I think we set a record with incoming

723
00:43:54,013 --> 00:43:58,653
Speaker 2: emails on it and people people can see the same

724
00:43:58,693 --> 00:43:59,253
Speaker 2: thing happening.

725
00:44:00,133 --> 00:44:03,013
Speaker 3: And so is this newly appointed person going to take

726
00:44:03,053 --> 00:44:10,053
Speaker 3: a sort of moderately interpretively conservative approach? I doubt it,

727
00:44:10,093 --> 00:44:12,333
Speaker 3: But I don't know. I don't know the person, I

728
00:44:12,373 --> 00:44:14,053
Speaker 3: don't know the appointment.

729
00:44:14,093 --> 00:44:17,133
Speaker 2: But I'll tell you that here, sorry on.

730
00:44:17,493 --> 00:44:22,173
Speaker 3: Well here in Australia, the Human Rights Commission is appointed

731
00:44:22,213 --> 00:44:27,733
Speaker 3: by the federal government, and during COVID, every single commissioner

732
00:44:27,973 --> 00:44:31,413
Speaker 3: had been appointed by the Liberal government. So these are

733
00:44:31,493 --> 00:44:37,013
Speaker 3: all supposedly seen conservatives appointed. Of course they weren't. They

734
00:44:37,013 --> 00:44:41,693
Speaker 3: couldn't find a single thing to complain about during the lockdown,

735
00:44:42,213 --> 00:44:47,973
Speaker 3: thuggery and authoritarianism, what Jonathan Sumption, the UK retired Supreme

736
00:44:47,973 --> 00:44:51,453
Speaker 3: Court judge, said were the worst infringeing infringements on our

737
00:44:51,453 --> 00:44:54,173
Speaker 3: civil liberties and three hundred years they couldn't find a

738
00:44:54,213 --> 00:44:56,613
Speaker 3: single thing to complain about. But get a case like

739
00:44:56,693 --> 00:45:00,533
Speaker 3: tickle and giggle, Oh my lord, they they you know,

740
00:45:00,573 --> 00:45:04,213
Speaker 3: they can't wait. Now. The new Sex Discrimination Commissioner, I

741
00:45:04,253 --> 00:45:09,813
Speaker 3: have to say, was appointed by labor, but you know,

742
00:45:09,853 --> 00:45:13,693
Speaker 3: the bulk of the commission is still liberal appointed. And

743
00:45:13,693 --> 00:45:15,733
Speaker 3: that's one of the weird things about the world when

744
00:45:16,173 --> 00:45:19,973
Speaker 3: when conservative governments come into office, they just seem to

745
00:45:20,013 --> 00:45:23,693
Speaker 3: be unable to appoint actual conservatives any top positions that

746
00:45:23,733 --> 00:45:26,893
Speaker 3: are appointed positions. Douglas Murray writes about this in the UK,

747
00:45:27,653 --> 00:45:31,293
Speaker 3: Labor appoints hard left and we appoint soft left, and

748
00:45:31,813 --> 00:45:34,173
Speaker 3: they just they're just too embarrassed. I mean here in Australia,

749
00:45:34,213 --> 00:45:37,973
Speaker 3: I would appoint Andrew Bold, who's a real sort of

750
00:45:38,133 --> 00:45:43,093
Speaker 3: feisty political comment I would appoint him to run the ABC.

751
00:45:44,573 --> 00:45:46,653
Speaker 3: That would teach them a lesson. But you know that

752
00:45:46,693 --> 00:45:49,133
Speaker 3: will never happen. They don't want they don't want to

753
00:45:49,173 --> 00:45:52,333
Speaker 3: take on anybody, so they just point, if you're lucky though,

754
00:45:52,333 --> 00:45:55,333
Speaker 3: appoint a centrist. That's the best you can hope for, yes.

755
00:45:55,333 --> 00:45:57,253
Speaker 2: And that just makes it easier for the for the

756
00:45:57,333 --> 00:46:02,293
Speaker 2: left when they yeah, yeah exactly, So discalidice that exists.

757
00:46:02,773 --> 00:46:03,653
Speaker 2: How do we have a comment?

758
00:46:04,373 --> 00:46:07,573
Speaker 3: Well, I think part of what you what's happening around Europe,

759
00:46:07,773 --> 00:46:10,173
Speaker 3: not here, not in New Zealand, and not in Britain,

760
00:46:10,213 --> 00:46:12,213
Speaker 3: but if you look around Europe and the US, you're

761
00:46:12,253 --> 00:46:15,853
Speaker 3: seeing that the old fashioned coalition of interest that went

762
00:46:15,893 --> 00:46:18,293
Speaker 3: into making up a right of center party is completely

763
00:46:18,373 --> 00:46:23,773
Speaker 3: broken down. You're seeing a lot the left wing media,

764
00:46:23,813 --> 00:46:27,173
Speaker 3: which is like ninety percent of it, they call it populism,

765
00:46:27,213 --> 00:46:29,493
Speaker 3: But as far as I can tell, nobody really knows

766
00:46:29,533 --> 00:46:33,213
Speaker 3: what the labeled populism means other than people who win

767
00:46:33,293 --> 00:46:37,653
Speaker 3: elections with policies we don't like. So they're winning elections,

768
00:46:38,053 --> 00:46:41,293
Speaker 3: and they're winning elections based on taking positions that the

769
00:46:41,333 --> 00:46:46,773
Speaker 3: two established parties won't talk about, like unrestrained immigration or

770
00:46:47,533 --> 00:46:51,013
Speaker 3: massive government spending or not fighting the culture wars. And

771
00:46:51,133 --> 00:46:54,013
Speaker 3: these parties are winning all over Europe and lots of places.

772
00:46:54,893 --> 00:46:57,853
Speaker 3: And in a way, this is what Donald Trump has

773
00:46:57,893 --> 00:47:02,013
Speaker 3: done in the US. He's basically destroyed the old Rockefeller

774
00:47:02,133 --> 00:47:06,333
Speaker 3: Republican Party, the party of George W. Bush and Romney

775
00:47:06,693 --> 00:47:10,573
Speaker 3: and McCain. And whether Truck wins or not, the old

776
00:47:10,853 --> 00:47:14,973
Speaker 3: Republican Party is never coming back because Trump has remade

777
00:47:15,013 --> 00:47:17,613
Speaker 3: it into what critics on the left would call a

778
00:47:17,653 --> 00:47:21,093
Speaker 3: populist party. But it's a party that wants to significantly

779
00:47:21,173 --> 00:47:25,173
Speaker 3: cut back on immigration, and it's a party that wants

780
00:47:25,213 --> 00:47:28,053
Speaker 3: to deal with the you know, the power of the

781
00:47:28,133 --> 00:47:30,933
Speaker 3: bureaucrats in Washington to see all sorts of things that

782
00:47:32,213 --> 00:47:36,293
Speaker 3: the old Republican Party support it. You know, Trump doesn't

783
00:47:36,333 --> 00:47:38,653
Speaker 3: want to go to war. He didn't have a single

784
00:47:38,693 --> 00:47:40,293
Speaker 3: war when he was president. You have to go back

785
00:47:40,293 --> 00:47:43,213
Speaker 3: to vote Herbert Hoover to get that. So he has

786
00:47:43,253 --> 00:47:46,893
Speaker 3: an unusual combination of interest and it's much more palatable

787
00:47:46,933 --> 00:47:49,773
Speaker 3: for working class people. And one of the things you're

788
00:47:49,773 --> 00:47:53,573
Speaker 3: seeing around the anglosphere is that conservative parties are now

789
00:47:53,613 --> 00:47:58,213
Speaker 3: the party of the working person, and rich people vote left. Again,

790
00:47:58,253 --> 00:48:00,693
Speaker 3: this is a generalization, but I think in twenty sixteen

791
00:48:01,093 --> 00:48:05,973
Speaker 3: Hillary Clinton took the hundred wealthiest counties and in Britain,

792
00:48:06,533 --> 00:48:08,733
Speaker 3: you know Boris in twenty nineteen, he didn't any of

793
00:48:08,773 --> 00:48:13,413
Speaker 3: the rich London constituencies. Rich people who have the money

794
00:48:13,933 --> 00:48:17,333
Speaker 3: on social issues identify with this sort of social justice

795
00:48:17,493 --> 00:48:20,533
Speaker 3: human rights brigade version of the left wing party, and

796
00:48:20,573 --> 00:48:24,573
Speaker 3: they vote left. In Australia, you know, half the people

797
00:48:24,573 --> 00:48:28,413
Speaker 3: who vote Green are incredibly wealthy because they don't pay

798
00:48:28,453 --> 00:48:32,173
Speaker 3: the costs, whereas working class or poorer or lower middle

799
00:48:32,213 --> 00:48:35,773
Speaker 3: class people do. So the new alignment of right of

800
00:48:35,853 --> 00:48:40,533
Speaker 3: center parties includes sort of rural areas and suburbs, and

801
00:48:41,213 --> 00:48:43,213
Speaker 3: you know that's the majority of the population it's the

802
00:48:43,293 --> 00:48:46,893
Speaker 3: kind of people who voted no on the Voice. It's

803
00:48:46,933 --> 00:48:50,053
Speaker 3: hopeless to try to win in Toronto or London these days,

804
00:48:50,053 --> 00:48:53,973
Speaker 3: and it's helpless for conservative parties to win the rich,

805
00:48:54,093 --> 00:48:59,653
Speaker 3: inner city constituencies. Those people don't vote for the sort

806
00:48:59,653 --> 00:49:04,253
Speaker 3: of conservative package of views. And again i'm generalizing, of course,

807
00:49:04,293 --> 00:49:07,173
Speaker 3: there's many wealthy people who are conservative, but by and large,

808
00:49:07,213 --> 00:49:09,773
Speaker 3: if you go to a uh, you know, a top

809
00:49:09,853 --> 00:49:15,013
Speaker 3: lawyers event on an issue after issue, the majority of

810
00:49:15,053 --> 00:49:16,333
Speaker 3: the room is pretty left wing.

811
00:49:16,933 --> 00:49:21,693
Speaker 2: It's it's frustrating, is my simple way, simple way of

812
00:49:21,733 --> 00:49:24,733
Speaker 2: putting it. A couple just a couple of things before

813
00:49:24,773 --> 00:49:27,413
Speaker 2: we wind before we wind up. What you've what you've

814
00:49:27,453 --> 00:49:31,133
Speaker 2: basically told us is that there was no you tell

815
00:49:31,173 --> 00:49:35,253
Speaker 2: me if I'm wrong, no binding legal authority that made

816
00:49:35,573 --> 00:49:39,613
Speaker 2: made Rummich rule the way that he did right or wrong.

817
00:49:40,613 --> 00:49:43,813
Speaker 3: Well, almost never in a case, is it. If you

818
00:49:43,853 --> 00:49:47,253
Speaker 3: go to a lawyer and they say, look lighton, there's

819
00:49:47,653 --> 00:49:50,213
Speaker 3: the statute is dead clear, and there's one hundred and

820
00:49:50,213 --> 00:49:53,013
Speaker 3: fifty presidents right on this one point, there's no way

821
00:49:53,013 --> 00:49:56,253
Speaker 3: you can lose. Those cases never get litigated. I mean,

822
00:49:56,493 --> 00:49:58,973
Speaker 3: so there's always some there's almost the kind of cases

823
00:49:58,973 --> 00:50:01,413
Speaker 3: that make it to a court that don't settle are

824
00:50:01,493 --> 00:50:05,213
Speaker 3: ones where there's usually an argument on both sides. You know,

825
00:50:05,653 --> 00:50:08,693
Speaker 3: Herbert Hart wrote this magisterial book called The Concept the Law.

826
00:50:08,733 --> 00:50:13,853
Speaker 3: He calls these open texture or penumbero cases. Most cases aren't.

827
00:50:14,533 --> 00:50:16,613
Speaker 3: That's why most people never go to court, and you

828
00:50:16,613 --> 00:50:19,173
Speaker 3: can have a legal system the majesty of the law,

829
00:50:19,213 --> 00:50:21,693
Speaker 3: he calls it, where most people can have different interests

830
00:50:21,733 --> 00:50:24,173
Speaker 3: in life, they can pursue those interests and they never

831
00:50:24,213 --> 00:50:27,053
Speaker 3: have to litigate. You know, if I drive into the

832
00:50:27,053 --> 00:50:29,773
Speaker 3: car in front of me, I know I'm at fault,

833
00:50:29,813 --> 00:50:32,333
Speaker 3: even though it's an Octageneian who stopped for no reason,

834
00:50:32,853 --> 00:50:35,853
Speaker 3: and so the rules are usually pretty clear. In this case,

835
00:50:36,053 --> 00:50:38,253
Speaker 3: the idea that there was no scope for the judge

836
00:50:38,253 --> 00:50:40,093
Speaker 3: to decide the other way, I think is wrong. And

837
00:50:40,173 --> 00:50:42,453
Speaker 3: I think, you know, if you go back and look

838
00:50:42,493 --> 00:50:46,533
Speaker 3: at the explanatory memorandum or answered to the twenty thirteen amendment,

839
00:50:46,613 --> 00:50:50,813
Speaker 3: no one, virtually no one at the time thought that

840
00:50:50,893 --> 00:50:54,373
Speaker 3: they were legislating to achieve the sort of outcome we

841
00:50:54,413 --> 00:50:58,133
Speaker 3: saw in this case. Now you can take a view

842
00:50:58,173 --> 00:51:03,333
Speaker 3: that when you interpret legal texts, the text can stay

843
00:51:03,333 --> 00:51:05,533
Speaker 3: the same, but the meaning of the text can change.

844
00:51:05,773 --> 00:51:08,613
Speaker 3: That is a highly controversial view. I know that it's

845
00:51:08,613 --> 00:51:13,293
Speaker 3: the majority view and constitutional interpretation in the anglosphere, but

846
00:51:14,453 --> 00:51:16,453
Speaker 3: there's awful there's an awful lot of people who don't

847
00:51:16,453 --> 00:51:19,733
Speaker 3: agree with that view. And outside of law, almost no

848
00:51:19,773 --> 00:51:22,853
Speaker 3: one believes that, you know, the meaning of the meaning

849
00:51:22,893 --> 00:51:26,493
Speaker 3: of a speech or a text can change over time.

850
00:51:26,533 --> 00:51:28,933
Speaker 3: And it actually judges when they want you to read

851
00:51:29,013 --> 00:51:34,053
Speaker 3: their judgment. You know, they don't think my judgment is

852
00:51:34,093 --> 00:51:37,373
Speaker 3: a living tree and what I said yesterday has changed

853
00:51:37,413 --> 00:51:41,493
Speaker 3: its meaning. That they implicitly take the same view that

854
00:51:41,613 --> 00:51:44,173
Speaker 3: you know meaning is locked in and what they meant

855
00:51:44,653 --> 00:51:47,013
Speaker 3: is what they meant, the same sort of thing that

856
00:51:47,493 --> 00:51:49,853
Speaker 3: applies in everyday life or if your wife gives you

857
00:51:49,893 --> 00:51:55,013
Speaker 3: a shopping list. And so there's that sort of debate

858
00:51:55,093 --> 00:51:57,253
Speaker 3: going on in the background to this case as well.

859
00:51:57,573 --> 00:52:00,733
Speaker 3: So again I as I said in my Spectator article,

860
00:52:01,573 --> 00:52:04,653
Speaker 3: you know, there were legal materials that gave the judge

861
00:52:04,653 --> 00:52:06,573
Speaker 3: ample room to come to the conclusion he did. And

862
00:52:06,613 --> 00:52:08,293
Speaker 3: if you were a betting person, you would have bet

863
00:52:08,453 --> 00:52:12,013
Speaker 3: for the case that any judge appointed by the Liberal

864
00:52:12,053 --> 00:52:16,653
Speaker 3: party our Conservative party would be sort of sufficiently touchy

865
00:52:16,693 --> 00:52:18,253
Speaker 3: feely to deliver that result.

866
00:52:18,333 --> 00:52:20,493
Speaker 2: Thinkger without Conservative Party.

867
00:52:21,173 --> 00:52:23,093
Speaker 3: Yeah. When I say that, I mean it to be

868
00:52:23,173 --> 00:52:26,053
Speaker 3: in quotation marks. But there's also plenty of scope for

869
00:52:26,133 --> 00:52:30,093
Speaker 3: someone to write a very plausible judgment that would have

870
00:52:30,373 --> 00:52:33,813
Speaker 3: given Giggle a win. And the problem is that we're

871
00:52:33,813 --> 00:52:36,573
Speaker 3: not appointing enough judges. You take that of I mean,

872
00:52:36,733 --> 00:52:39,293
Speaker 3: people tend to think that the law interprets itself, and

873
00:52:39,333 --> 00:52:41,933
Speaker 3: in many cases it does. It's so straightforward that the

874
00:52:42,013 --> 00:52:44,773
Speaker 3: rule applies. Again, those cases don't end up at the

875
00:52:44,853 --> 00:52:48,893
Speaker 3: High Court of Australia or a top court. Very seldom

876
00:52:49,133 --> 00:52:51,213
Speaker 3: is it the case outside of you know, some prisoner

877
00:52:51,253 --> 00:52:53,773
Speaker 3: appealing because he prefers to do that and stay in

878
00:52:53,813 --> 00:52:57,413
Speaker 3: his cell. So leave those sort of criminal cases, the

879
00:52:57,533 --> 00:53:00,013
Speaker 3: kinds of cases where both sides are prepared to spend

880
00:53:00,013 --> 00:53:02,933
Speaker 3: an awful lot of money. Here cases where the rule

881
00:53:03,133 --> 00:53:05,213
Speaker 3: it tends to be in the number of the rule

882
00:53:05,693 --> 00:53:09,733
Speaker 3: or rules where there's a plausible argument ways, and in

883
00:53:09,773 --> 00:53:12,853
Speaker 3: those cases, as Heart famously said back in nineteen sixty one,

884
00:53:13,373 --> 00:53:15,533
Speaker 3: when it comes to the judges, they have a discretion.

885
00:53:16,093 --> 00:53:18,293
Speaker 3: I think he said something like all that succeeds is

886
00:53:18,893 --> 00:53:21,973
Speaker 3: success at the end of chapter seven. And if you say,

887
00:53:22,133 --> 00:53:24,093
Speaker 3: does it matter who you're appointing to the bench in

888
00:53:24,133 --> 00:53:27,933
Speaker 3: those cases, you bet it does. That's why Americans fight

889
00:53:28,013 --> 00:53:32,253
Speaker 3: over Supreme Court appointment because they know they know it matters.

890
00:53:32,773 --> 00:53:36,973
Speaker 3: And so if your letter writer was saying, you know,

891
00:53:37,053 --> 00:53:39,253
Speaker 3: brom which his hands were tied and there was nothing

892
00:53:39,253 --> 00:53:41,893
Speaker 3: he could do but decide for Ticko, he's wrong. In

893
00:53:41,933 --> 00:53:44,053
Speaker 3: my view, he doesn't know. The letter writer doesn't know

894
00:53:44,053 --> 00:53:46,813
Speaker 3: what he's talking about. If he had said, you know,

895
00:53:46,853 --> 00:53:48,893
Speaker 3: there were an ample scope to decide either way, and

896
00:53:49,013 --> 00:53:52,093
Speaker 3: this particular judge decided that way, you know, I sort

897
00:53:52,133 --> 00:53:54,733
Speaker 3: of buy that, But again that's just a problem with

898
00:53:54,773 --> 00:53:58,253
Speaker 3: who were who we as conservative governments, are appointing to

899
00:53:58,293 --> 00:53:58,733
Speaker 3: the bench.

900
00:53:59,613 --> 00:54:02,773
Speaker 2: Well the letter writer, well, his letter will be in

901
00:54:02,813 --> 00:54:05,613
Speaker 2: the mail room. Which follows onto on the back of

902
00:54:05,653 --> 00:54:09,693
Speaker 2: this interview with Jim. But you mentioned the Supreme Court,

903
00:54:09,973 --> 00:54:13,813
Speaker 2: strangely enough, the US Supreme Court. Strangely enough. That was

904
00:54:13,853 --> 00:54:18,093
Speaker 2: my last question line that I wanted to discuss with you,

905
00:54:18,293 --> 00:54:23,293
Speaker 2: as briefly as the UK two. How influential do you

906
00:54:23,373 --> 00:54:26,933
Speaker 2: think the US Supreme Court is outside of the US,

907
00:54:27,413 --> 00:54:29,173
Speaker 2: but specifically in our two countries.

908
00:54:31,333 --> 00:54:36,453
Speaker 3: So the Australian Constitution is basically the world's closest copy

909
00:54:36,493 --> 00:54:39,533
Speaker 3: of the US Constitution. They you know, whenever they had

910
00:54:39,533 --> 00:54:42,013
Speaker 3: a choice back in the late eighteen hundreds. But so

911
00:54:42,053 --> 00:54:44,893
Speaker 3: between the Canadian version of federalism where the American they

912
00:54:44,933 --> 00:54:49,293
Speaker 3: picked the American we have bicameralism. New Zealand doesn't. Canada

913
00:54:49,373 --> 00:54:52,733
Speaker 3: effectively doesn't because the upper house is appointed. Britain effectively doesn't.

914
00:54:53,173 --> 00:54:55,373
Speaker 3: There's only really three democracies in the world with a

915
00:54:55,453 --> 00:54:58,613
Speaker 3: strong upper house, like really strong, and that's the Americans,

916
00:54:58,613 --> 00:55:01,493
Speaker 3: Australia and Italy, and the Italians are trying to get

917
00:55:01,573 --> 00:55:04,293
Speaker 3: rid of theirs. And so it's a very American constitution

918
00:55:04,413 --> 00:55:06,773
Speaker 3: Australia has that was stuffed into the mold of a

919
00:55:06,853 --> 00:55:11,413
Speaker 3: Westminster British system. It's got elements of both. And so

920
00:55:11,533 --> 00:55:15,013
Speaker 3: in the early days the High Court of Australia certainly

921
00:55:15,053 --> 00:55:21,173
Speaker 3: paid attention to American cases. Of late, around the common

922
00:55:21,253 --> 00:55:25,413
Speaker 3: law world there's less and less interest in what the

923
00:55:25,453 --> 00:55:30,533
Speaker 3: Americans are saying because the Americans still have top judges

924
00:55:30,613 --> 00:55:36,333
Speaker 3: who are you know. Originalism is really a proxy battle

925
00:55:36,373 --> 00:55:39,413
Speaker 3: in some ways. So in Australia we fight over whether

926
00:55:39,493 --> 00:55:42,293
Speaker 3: to adopt a bill of rights. Once you've got one,

927
00:55:42,533 --> 00:55:45,413
Speaker 3: there's no hope that any conservative government would ever repeal

928
00:55:45,453 --> 00:55:48,493
Speaker 3: it or you know, un entrenched it from the Constitution

929
00:55:48,693 --> 00:55:51,173
Speaker 3: or try to. And so the battle then is how

930
00:55:51,213 --> 00:55:54,373
Speaker 3: to interpret this document. With a Bill of rights, you

931
00:55:54,533 --> 00:55:57,213
Speaker 3: just have a list of moral entitlements that are really

932
00:55:57,373 --> 00:56:00,053
Speaker 3: vague and wooly. And the question is always to what

933
00:56:00,173 --> 00:56:06,093
Speaker 3: extent will unelected judges overrule the elected legislature. And the

934
00:56:06,213 --> 00:56:09,333
Speaker 3: more you are bound by the intent of the people,

935
00:56:11,053 --> 00:56:13,573
Speaker 3: the intentions and what people at the time understood the

936
00:56:13,613 --> 00:56:16,613
Speaker 3: document to mean, the less you're taking off the democratic table,

937
00:56:16,893 --> 00:56:19,533
Speaker 3: and the more you treat words of sort of alive,

938
00:56:19,733 --> 00:56:24,053
Speaker 3: whatever that means, or as always expanding their scope, the

939
00:56:24,133 --> 00:56:28,373
Speaker 3: more willing you are to see unelected judges second guests

940
00:56:28,453 --> 00:56:32,373
Speaker 3: and overrule the elected branches. You know, Roe v. Wade

941
00:56:32,533 --> 00:56:35,653
Speaker 3: was the most implausible decision ever, whatever you think about abortion,

942
00:56:35,773 --> 00:56:39,013
Speaker 3: they just made it up right. And so in Dawbs

943
00:56:39,013 --> 00:56:42,773
Speaker 3: what they effectively did the recent Supreme Court cases they said, look,

944
00:56:43,333 --> 00:56:45,893
Speaker 3: this is a matter for the elected legislatures at the

945
00:56:45,933 --> 00:56:49,733
Speaker 3: state level, because it's a federal system. And so this

946
00:56:49,773 --> 00:56:52,613
Speaker 3: is one of the big issues in the current American election.

947
00:56:52,693 --> 00:56:55,973
Speaker 3: But what most Americans don't seem to realize is since DAUBS,

948
00:56:57,013 --> 00:56:59,493
Speaker 3: which just leaves it to the elected legislature, which is

949
00:56:59,493 --> 00:57:02,613
Speaker 3: how abortion was handled in New Zealand and not Canada,

950
00:57:03,333 --> 00:57:09,973
Speaker 3: New Zealand, Britain, Ireland, just about everywhere France. Since they've

951
00:57:10,013 --> 00:57:12,293
Speaker 3: done that, the number of abortions in the US I

952
00:57:12,293 --> 00:57:15,093
Speaker 3: think has gone up. What it just means is that

953
00:57:15,173 --> 00:57:19,573
Speaker 3: in some US states it's harder to get an abortion Mississippi, Alabama,

954
00:57:19,613 --> 00:57:22,013
Speaker 3: and in some US states has actually become easier because

955
00:57:22,053 --> 00:57:24,133
Speaker 3: you know, the legislature in the state of New York

956
00:57:24,213 --> 00:57:27,453
Speaker 3: and the state of California. You know, in California they

957
00:57:27,453 --> 00:57:29,853
Speaker 3: don't even want to have limits on you know, having

958
00:57:29,853 --> 00:57:32,133
Speaker 3: an abortion for a kid that's a day away from

959
00:57:32,213 --> 00:57:35,333
Speaker 3: being born, which you know, I don't really care about abortion.

960
00:57:35,733 --> 00:57:38,293
Speaker 3: Maybe that's because I'm a man, but I certainly not

961
00:57:38,373 --> 00:57:41,773
Speaker 3: allow an abortion in the last few weeks before, you know,

962
00:57:41,773 --> 00:57:44,213
Speaker 3: if you haven't pulled the trigger by then, it's too late,

963
00:57:44,293 --> 00:57:45,853
Speaker 3: you know, really you my view.

964
00:57:46,293 --> 00:57:49,853
Speaker 2: Have you read the what I presume is the editorial

965
00:57:50,293 --> 00:57:52,533
Speaker 2: in the Same Spectacle this week?

966
00:57:53,973 --> 00:57:55,813
Speaker 3: Yeah, I I you know I'm going to say this.

967
00:57:56,173 --> 00:57:59,813
Speaker 3: My editor, Rowan Dean of The Spectator Australia is in

968
00:58:00,013 --> 00:58:03,533
Speaker 3: a very brave editor. He writes the editorials. And you

969
00:58:03,573 --> 00:58:08,373
Speaker 3: know how many people in the journalistic world took the

970
00:58:08,413 --> 00:58:11,573
Speaker 3: anti lockdown line from day one. That row indeed that

971
00:58:11,733 --> 00:58:14,173
Speaker 3: he you know, he should be winning an award, so

972
00:58:14,253 --> 00:58:17,093
Speaker 3: he did that, and he's taken a brave line on

973
00:58:17,773 --> 00:58:21,013
Speaker 3: net zero and just about everything. And he wrote, you know,

974
00:58:21,253 --> 00:58:24,333
Speaker 3: very good editorial, but that I tend to agree with

975
00:58:24,453 --> 00:58:27,613
Speaker 3: Rowan on on just about everything. And I admire his

976
00:58:28,693 --> 00:58:31,693
Speaker 3: courage because I can tell you he's come under immense

977
00:58:31,733 --> 00:58:36,333
Speaker 3: amounts of attack and pressure, especially during lockdowns. Can you

978
00:58:36,373 --> 00:58:39,893
Speaker 3: imagine in New Zealand a weekly publication that said that

979
00:58:40,013 --> 00:58:42,973
Speaker 3: to Sinda our durn's getting everything wrong and that she's

980
00:58:42,973 --> 00:58:45,853
Speaker 3: making mistake after mistake, and that the long term costs

981
00:58:45,853 --> 00:58:48,973
Speaker 3: of the lockdowns are going to dwarf the benefits not

982
00:58:49,133 --> 00:58:52,773
Speaker 3: and he means in terms of lives, long term lives,

983
00:58:52,773 --> 00:58:57,413
Speaker 3: not just you know, blunted, you know, impoverish children's results

984
00:58:57,453 --> 00:58:58,813
Speaker 3: because they closed the school as well.

985
00:58:58,853 --> 00:59:00,933
Speaker 2: It answered to you a question about New Zealand. You

986
00:59:00,973 --> 00:59:05,133
Speaker 2: remember the guillotine. Yes, well that's where you would have

987
00:59:05,213 --> 00:59:08,413
Speaker 2: ended up if you tried, if you tried what he

988
00:59:08,533 --> 00:59:10,213
Speaker 2: done here, and.

989
00:59:10,173 --> 00:59:12,893
Speaker 3: She would have been Madame Lafarge knitting as you as

990
00:59:12,893 --> 00:59:15,453
Speaker 3: you went to the guillotine, would have just sent there

991
00:59:15,453 --> 00:59:15,773
Speaker 3: a durn.

992
00:59:15,853 --> 00:59:20,653
Speaker 2: So you're right, yes, oh dear, I'm I'm debating whether

993
00:59:20,693 --> 00:59:23,933
Speaker 2: I'll read that that editorial or not. But it's called

994
00:59:24,253 --> 00:59:27,013
Speaker 2: for those who want to find it for themselves. It's

995
00:59:27,053 --> 00:59:30,213
Speaker 2: called dead Babies, and it's a shocker.

996
00:59:30,653 --> 00:59:33,133
Speaker 3: Yeah, yep, Jim.

997
00:59:33,173 --> 00:59:36,253
Speaker 2: As always, we are most appreciative of your time and

998
00:59:36,373 --> 00:59:40,413
Speaker 2: your import and your intellect, and I can only I

999
00:59:40,413 --> 00:59:43,933
Speaker 2: can only say thank you in as most most meaningful

1000
00:59:43,933 --> 00:59:44,733
Speaker 2: way as I can.

1001
00:59:44,853 --> 00:59:47,653
Speaker 3: Well, let's you know again, very kind and uh you know,

1002
00:59:47,733 --> 00:59:50,653
Speaker 3: let's keep pushing the new government in New Zealand on

1003
00:59:50,693 --> 00:59:53,853
Speaker 3: to sort of start standing up to the judiciary and

1004
00:59:54,293 --> 00:59:56,653
Speaker 3: tackling them a bit, because we need to do that.

1005
00:59:56,813 --> 00:59:59,533
Speaker 3: I think I think there's some people in New Zealand

1006
00:59:59,573 --> 01:00:01,733
Speaker 3: who are trying to fight that fight, some really top

1007
01:00:01,773 --> 01:00:04,733
Speaker 3: quality lawyers. So let's hope they have a bit of success. Indeed,

1008
01:00:04,893 --> 01:00:15,613
Speaker 3: appreciate it, right, thank you very much, late light and Smith.

1009
01:00:16,093 --> 01:00:18,133
Speaker 2: I went to the mail room for number two hundred

1010
01:00:18,173 --> 01:00:21,533
Speaker 2: and fifty four, missus producer. How are you Layton?

1011
01:00:21,773 --> 01:00:25,213
Speaker 4: I am fantastic, Thank you, just walked eight k's along

1012
01:00:25,253 --> 01:00:27,533
Speaker 4: the beaches, happy, happy me.

1013
01:00:28,373 --> 01:00:32,813
Speaker 2: Eight k's, and you didn't get rained on No may

1014
01:00:32,853 --> 01:00:37,573
Speaker 2: I go first? Look do I've recently had the pleasure

1015
01:00:37,613 --> 01:00:40,693
Speaker 2: of catching up on your episodes in one big burst

1016
01:00:41,293 --> 01:00:43,573
Speaker 2: as a small business owner, I took a break from

1017
01:00:43,813 --> 01:00:48,013
Speaker 2: how the labour greens think think that I spend my time,

1018
01:00:48,853 --> 01:00:51,573
Speaker 2: for example, diving into my swimming pool full of gold

1019
01:00:51,573 --> 01:00:56,013
Speaker 2: coins a Scrooge McDuck, or skiing in Switzerland while profiting

1020
01:00:56,013 --> 01:00:59,573
Speaker 2: off the backs of my staff, and instead worked all

1021
01:00:59,693 --> 01:01:02,813
Speaker 2: night all weekend trying to catch up on the workload

1022
01:01:03,293 --> 01:01:06,853
Speaker 2: and keep the business afloat. This, however, gave me plenty

1023
01:01:06,893 --> 01:01:09,213
Speaker 2: of time to get through the backlog, though I admit

1024
01:01:09,293 --> 01:01:11,413
Speaker 2: that I did at one point have to take off

1025
01:01:11,453 --> 01:01:14,613
Speaker 2: my monocle top hat and three piece suit. At one

1026
01:01:14,693 --> 01:01:19,333
Speaker 2: point it was mentioned that dear Leader Jacinda was attending

1027
01:01:19,373 --> 01:01:24,853
Speaker 2: the DNC, the Democratic National Convention in the US, to

1028
01:01:25,013 --> 01:01:29,493
Speaker 2: support Scarmala. My first thought was I wonder who paid

1029
01:01:29,533 --> 01:01:32,093
Speaker 2: the air fare, But then I had a good juggle

1030
01:01:32,133 --> 01:01:34,413
Speaker 2: when it occurred to me that in the US, her

1031
01:01:34,493 --> 01:01:37,493
Speaker 2: vast collection of red based dresses, blouses and pantsuits that

1032
01:01:37,573 --> 01:01:41,813
Speaker 2: she'd amassed at the taxpayer's expense would now be worthless

1033
01:01:41,893 --> 01:01:43,933
Speaker 2: up there, and she'd have to go for a nice

1034
01:01:43,973 --> 01:01:49,453
Speaker 2: shade of gasp national blue. Oh the humanity, I think

1035
01:01:49,493 --> 01:01:52,893
Speaker 2: you mean the humility, Oh the humility. Thank Heavens for

1036
01:01:53,093 --> 01:01:56,653
Speaker 2: life's little moments. Now, on a second note, many years ago,

1037
01:01:56,813 --> 01:01:59,813
Speaker 2: I was in the performance business and was always known

1038
01:01:59,853 --> 01:02:03,613
Speaker 2: as having a head for script and being good at

1039
01:02:03,653 --> 01:02:07,853
Speaker 2: remembering lines. On my first reading, I'm sorry, Caroline, but

1040
01:02:07,973 --> 01:02:11,013
Speaker 2: the lets you read from the person sitting on in

1041
01:02:11,053 --> 01:02:14,293
Speaker 2: a rooftub at thirty degrees then flying home at thirty

1042
01:02:14,333 --> 01:02:18,293
Speaker 2: thousand feet didn't ring any bells at all. So, despite

1043
01:02:18,333 --> 01:02:20,693
Speaker 2: your voice being one of the highlights of each podcast,

1044
01:02:21,213 --> 01:02:23,293
Speaker 2: I'm unfortunately going to have to throw you under the

1045
01:02:23,293 --> 01:02:27,373
Speaker 2: bus on this one and agree with Leyton. The good

1046
01:02:27,413 --> 01:02:30,413
Speaker 2: news for you, though, Carolyn, however, is that the bus

1047
01:02:30,453 --> 01:02:33,093
Speaker 2: that I threw you in front of is run by

1048
01:02:33,573 --> 01:02:37,893
Speaker 2: Auckland Transport, So not only will it definitely not be

1049
01:02:37,973 --> 01:02:40,813
Speaker 2: there on time to run over you, there's a good

1050
01:02:40,893 --> 01:02:45,333
Speaker 2: chance that it's a complete no show. That's funny. Thanks

1051
01:02:45,333 --> 01:02:49,453
Speaker 2: again for all you both do, Adrian, Great Letter.

1052
01:02:49,893 --> 01:02:55,693
Speaker 4: Great Letter. Chris says the choice to bring a child

1053
01:02:55,733 --> 01:02:58,893
Speaker 4: into the world is the greatest vote of confidence in

1054
01:02:58,933 --> 01:03:02,133
Speaker 4: the future, Yet at times the future seems to be

1055
01:03:02,213 --> 01:03:06,173
Speaker 4: at odds with hope. One of my greatest delights is

1056
01:03:06,213 --> 01:03:10,013
Speaker 4: in home educating my children. It is very inefficient and

1057
01:03:10,093 --> 01:03:13,373
Speaker 4: I get almost nothing else done. There are countless other

1058
01:03:13,453 --> 01:03:16,773
Speaker 4: calls on my time that simply go to voicemail. But

1059
01:03:16,893 --> 01:03:20,373
Speaker 4: by avoiding the inefficiencies of working and letting someone else

1060
01:03:20,493 --> 01:03:23,133
Speaker 4: educate my kids, I get to pass on the hope

1061
01:03:23,133 --> 01:03:26,453
Speaker 4: that I have. Although there are more efficient ways of

1062
01:03:26,573 --> 01:03:28,853
Speaker 4: educating my kids, I am privileged to have the time

1063
01:03:28,893 --> 01:03:32,333
Speaker 4: with them and hopefully leave a lasting legacy of both

1064
01:03:32,413 --> 01:03:37,173
Speaker 4: hope and a personalized education program that plays to their strengths.

1065
01:03:37,973 --> 01:03:42,013
Speaker 4: Your podcast continually reminds me that the choice to homeschool

1066
01:03:42,133 --> 01:03:45,813
Speaker 4: is a worthwhile investment. And then Chris says, just a

1067
01:03:45,853 --> 01:03:49,813
Speaker 4: little background. I self studied my way through university and

1068
01:03:50,053 --> 01:03:54,973
Speaker 4: past first time. With the democratizing of education through the Internet,

1069
01:03:55,133 --> 01:03:58,213
Speaker 4: I can see university education going the way of horse

1070
01:03:58,293 --> 01:04:01,893
Speaker 4: drawn carriages, i e. For novelty value only.

1071
01:04:02,653 --> 01:04:08,773
Speaker 2: Chris, Chris, thank you. Here is the letter that featured

1072
01:04:08,773 --> 01:04:13,173
Speaker 2: today without being aired, but featured today in the interview

1073
01:04:13,973 --> 01:04:17,133
Speaker 2: from VIC, he says, as a longtime listener and very

1074
01:04:17,213 --> 01:04:20,373
Speaker 2: rare commenter. It is not often that I disagree with

1075
01:04:20,413 --> 01:04:25,093
Speaker 2: your podcast content, However, there is always an However, I

1076
01:04:25,173 --> 01:04:30,293
Speaker 2: strongly dispute your characterization of Justice Robert Bromich as an

1077
01:04:30,373 --> 01:04:34,253
Speaker 2: idiot and a moron. His reference to sex being changeable

1078
01:04:34,333 --> 01:04:37,373
Speaker 2: in his summary related to case Lawn, not his belief.

1079
01:04:38,133 --> 01:04:40,373
Speaker 2: He was very careful to rule according to the law

1080
01:04:40,413 --> 01:04:42,853
Speaker 2: as it stands in Australia, and I suspect also in

1081
01:04:42,893 --> 01:04:49,333
Speaker 2: New Zealand, Charlatan Tickle is legally a woman. Justice Bromwich

1082
01:04:49,773 --> 01:04:53,133
Speaker 2: had no choice and had he ruled against Tickle, he

1083
01:04:53,173 --> 01:04:55,973
Speaker 2: would have been guilty of interpreting the law, just like

1084
01:04:56,013 --> 01:04:59,933
Speaker 2: those that rule here with respect to the foreshore and seabed.

1085
01:05:00,453 --> 01:05:03,013
Speaker 2: I don't hold out any hope of a successful appeal,

1086
01:05:04,053 --> 01:05:06,693
Speaker 2: but keep up the good work. Regards VIC. Don't take

1087
01:05:06,733 --> 01:05:11,133
Speaker 2: this personally, but because I said before you wrote this

1088
01:05:11,693 --> 01:05:15,053
Speaker 2: was it last week? I said, I don't mind having

1089
01:05:15,093 --> 01:05:18,253
Speaker 2: some critical comment. In fact, I enjoy it and I

1090
01:05:18,293 --> 01:05:21,253
Speaker 2: took it on board, and I wonder if you've changed

1091
01:05:21,253 --> 01:05:25,653
Speaker 2: your mind at all after what you heard from Jim Allen.

1092
01:05:26,013 --> 01:05:28,173
Speaker 2: But thank you, and I do it, I seriously, I

1093
01:05:28,213 --> 01:05:30,653
Speaker 2: appreciate it. But if you've got any other thoughts on

1094
01:05:30,733 --> 01:05:34,533
Speaker 2: it after what you heard, then fire arf mate.

1095
01:05:34,413 --> 01:05:39,093
Speaker 4: Leighton Chris says, with AI in full swing and it

1096
01:05:39,133 --> 01:05:42,493
Speaker 4: can be a handy tool. The reason the real question

1097
01:05:42,853 --> 01:05:46,493
Speaker 4: is is it unbiased? The answer is a resounding no.

1098
01:05:47,173 --> 01:05:49,693
Speaker 4: You can see this with the now well known Trump

1099
01:05:49,813 --> 01:05:54,613
Speaker 4: question chat GPT paraphrase. Write an article showing all the

1100
01:05:54,653 --> 01:05:59,093
Speaker 4: good things about Trump. It couldn't or wouldn't, but would

1101
01:05:59,253 --> 01:06:03,213
Speaker 4: and could talk about anyone on the left. So AI

1102
01:06:03,573 --> 01:06:07,333
Speaker 4: is in fact not an artificial intelligence, it's artificial information.

1103
01:06:08,133 --> 01:06:11,173
Speaker 4: In the near future, I think everyone will be forced

1104
01:06:11,293 --> 01:06:15,093
Speaker 4: to accept all information from these bots, and computer hubs

1105
01:06:15,173 --> 01:06:20,013
Speaker 4: like Google are the only source of truth. Your guest,

1106
01:06:20,293 --> 01:06:24,333
Speaker 4: Stephen Rainbow almost endorsed Noah Harari, and that's a worry.

1107
01:06:24,573 --> 01:06:28,453
Speaker 4: Harari is one sick puppy in my personal opinion. I

1108
01:06:28,493 --> 01:06:31,853
Speaker 4: also found the fact doctor Rainbow was constantly preceding his

1109
01:06:31,973 --> 01:06:35,773
Speaker 4: statements with as a gay man a bit contradictory when

1110
01:06:35,853 --> 01:06:40,333
Speaker 4: stating the majority should take precedents in society while leaning

1111
01:06:40,373 --> 01:06:44,533
Speaker 4: on this is emphasis being a minority. I do agree

1112
01:06:44,573 --> 01:06:47,213
Speaker 4: with that statement absolutely, but hope he's not doing a

1113
01:06:47,293 --> 01:06:51,093
Speaker 4: Kamala Harrison. Joe Biden and saying one thing while intending

1114
01:06:51,133 --> 01:06:54,973
Speaker 4: to do the complete opposite. I may be completely wrong,

1115
01:06:55,013 --> 01:06:57,573
Speaker 4: and I do hope so, but history tells me a

1116
01:06:57,613 --> 01:07:00,933
Speaker 4: lot of people feeling important positions like this get there

1117
01:07:00,973 --> 01:07:05,373
Speaker 4: for a particular reason. Enough said, keep it coming. All

1118
01:07:05,413 --> 01:07:10,933
Speaker 4: the interviews are great, and that's again.

1119
01:07:08,973 --> 01:07:14,933
Speaker 2: Another good one. Still during your podcast, I smile during

1120
01:07:14,933 --> 01:07:18,493
Speaker 2: your in of view with Jill Ovans when she commented

1121
01:07:18,533 --> 01:07:21,933
Speaker 2: that God could be a woman. My comments would be

1122
01:07:22,013 --> 01:07:25,173
Speaker 2: that God has given as his preferred pronoun so she

1123
01:07:25,253 --> 01:07:28,733
Speaker 2: should respect it. And if God is a woman is

1124
01:07:28,773 --> 01:07:31,853
Speaker 2: she would first have to define what is a woman,

1125
01:07:32,573 --> 01:07:35,253
Speaker 2: given her association with the politics of the Labor Party.

1126
01:07:35,813 --> 01:07:38,213
Speaker 2: As always, I look forward to your next podcast.

1127
01:07:39,333 --> 01:07:44,333
Speaker 4: Ladon Peter says, thanks for highlighting, perhaps indirectly, but certainly

1128
01:07:44,373 --> 01:07:47,093
Speaker 4: for me, the ease with which some people such as

1129
01:07:47,133 --> 01:07:50,893
Speaker 4: Stephen Rainbow can slide into yet another public service job

1130
01:07:51,053 --> 01:07:54,733
Speaker 4: after a long life of doing nothing other than apparently

1131
01:07:54,773 --> 01:07:58,333
Speaker 4: sucking on the public teat. I guess his appointment to

1132
01:07:58,373 --> 01:08:01,533
Speaker 4: the Human Rights Commission is his reward for excelling in

1133
01:08:01,573 --> 01:08:04,413
Speaker 4: the art of wokeness and for avoiding a real job

1134
01:08:04,453 --> 01:08:07,373
Speaker 4: for most of his life. I didn't know much about

1135
01:08:07,453 --> 01:08:10,133
Speaker 4: him till I heard your podcast. This prompted me to

1136
01:08:10,213 --> 01:08:12,653
Speaker 4: google the man, which gave me just enough MFO to

1137
01:08:12,733 --> 01:08:16,653
Speaker 4: draw the conclusions expressed above. He is a man who

1138
01:08:16,733 --> 01:08:20,093
Speaker 4: has spent a lifetime cultivating the art of avoiding expressing

1139
01:08:20,173 --> 01:08:24,413
Speaker 4: an opinion. He does that extremely well. That's from Peter.

1140
01:08:24,973 --> 01:08:26,733
Speaker 4: He does give his opinion very well.

1141
01:08:26,773 --> 01:08:32,733
Speaker 2: He does, he does. I think that we covered that

1142
01:08:33,173 --> 01:08:36,733
Speaker 2: toward the end of the interview. Actually, I was thinking

1143
01:08:36,773 --> 01:08:41,533
Speaker 2: that's what Jim Allen was referring to, If not specifically,

1144
01:08:41,573 --> 01:08:46,053
Speaker 2: then generally he was referring to that sort of approach. Nevertheless,

1145
01:08:47,053 --> 01:08:52,053
Speaker 2: well said Jill Evans. Women's Rights Party website states three

1146
01:08:52,133 --> 01:08:58,333
Speaker 2: key principles the party runs on. First, sex is binary. Secondly,

1147
01:08:58,453 --> 01:09:03,293
Speaker 2: human beings cannot change sex. Thirdly, women are adult humans

1148
01:09:03,373 --> 01:09:06,133
Speaker 2: of the female sex. And just like that, they've answered

1149
01:09:06,133 --> 01:09:10,653
Speaker 2: three existential questions the leftists just refused to answer today,

1150
01:09:11,173 --> 01:09:13,613
Speaker 2: being what is gender? What is human? What is a woman?

1151
01:09:14,733 --> 01:09:18,573
Speaker 2: Who would have thought that idiot Australian judge Robert Bromwich

1152
01:09:19,933 --> 01:09:22,853
Speaker 2: would attempt to wipe out the meaning of gender, humanity

1153
01:09:22,893 --> 01:09:25,933
Speaker 2: and women all in one go in the tickle versus

1154
01:09:26,053 --> 01:09:30,173
Speaker 2: giggle case when he ruled it sex is interchangeable. Declan

1155
01:09:30,253 --> 01:09:34,533
Speaker 2: Mansfield from the Spectator Australia explained the flawed cisgender logic

1156
01:09:34,693 --> 01:09:38,293
Speaker 2: in Tickle the Big Tickle and Giggle. But the way

1157
01:09:38,293 --> 01:09:40,773
Speaker 2: it's going to pick that up with Jim, the time

1158
01:09:40,813 --> 01:09:43,133
Speaker 2: that I spent in law school will be it restricted.

1159
01:09:43,133 --> 01:09:45,453
Speaker 2: But it was a couple of years we were taught

1160
01:09:45,453 --> 01:09:48,533
Speaker 2: that it's not and I know this varies around the world,

1161
01:09:48,533 --> 01:09:52,733
Speaker 2: but we were taught that it's not versus that it's

1162
01:09:52,773 --> 01:09:55,613
Speaker 2: not tickle verse. In spite of the b not tickle

1163
01:09:55,773 --> 01:10:01,413
Speaker 2: versus giggle, it's tickle and giggle. Now I don't know

1164
01:10:01,493 --> 01:10:03,213
Speaker 2: too many other people that refer to it that way,

1165
01:10:03,213 --> 01:10:05,093
Speaker 2: but it's stuck with me all the way through. I'm

1166
01:10:05,173 --> 01:10:07,253
Speaker 2: just explaining myself this producer.

1167
01:10:07,973 --> 01:10:09,573
Speaker 4: Thank you for being so exact.

1168
01:10:09,853 --> 01:10:14,253
Speaker 2: Now I haven't finished yet. Decland Mansfield from The Spectator

1169
01:10:14,293 --> 01:10:19,613
Speaker 2: Australia explained the flawed cisgender logic in Tickle and Giggle

1170
01:10:19,773 --> 01:10:24,213
Speaker 2: perfectly when he said, what will ensue from the acceptance

1171
01:10:24,293 --> 01:10:28,293
Speaker 2: of cis gender as a rational category and the judgment

1172
01:10:28,333 --> 01:10:33,133
Speaker 2: in tickl and Giggle is an ever shifting horizon of

1173
01:10:33,213 --> 01:10:40,413
Speaker 2: infantilized irrationalism. Masquerading as reasonable thought Australia. What the hell

1174
01:10:40,493 --> 01:10:43,933
Speaker 2: is going on with you? First Raygun and now Tickle

1175
01:10:44,013 --> 01:10:46,773
Speaker 2: and Giggle, all in a space of weeks. More importantly,

1176
01:10:46,813 --> 01:10:50,173
Speaker 2: our very own idiot Law Commission now wants to introduce

1177
01:10:50,213 --> 01:10:53,533
Speaker 2: hate speech laws around the entire spectrum of gender theory,

1178
01:10:53,693 --> 01:10:57,133
Speaker 2: and we need to stop them. Any idea what else

1179
01:10:57,173 --> 01:10:59,653
Speaker 2: we can do besides signing the Free Speech Union's petition

1180
01:10:59,853 --> 01:11:03,613
Speaker 2: against hate speech laws? How do we get these sons

1181
01:11:03,653 --> 01:11:08,893
Speaker 2: of the devil of our planets? Well, it's find something

1182
01:11:08,893 --> 01:11:09,333
Speaker 2: to ponder.

1183
01:11:10,533 --> 01:11:13,813
Speaker 4: Laden Mike says. I'm a long time listener, both via

1184
01:11:13,853 --> 01:11:17,573
Speaker 4: the airwaves and the podcast. It goes without saying that

1185
01:11:17,613 --> 01:11:20,453
Speaker 4: the insight that you bring in a crumbling media landscape

1186
01:11:20,533 --> 01:11:24,373
Speaker 4: is highly valued and must be continued for the foreseeable future. Please,

1187
01:11:25,013 --> 01:11:27,653
Speaker 4: After all, it is apparent that the volume of topics

1188
01:11:27,773 --> 01:11:31,613
Speaker 4: needing your objective analysis grows by the day. I was

1189
01:11:31,693 --> 01:11:35,653
Speaker 4: hoping for a recommendation from you with respect to news sources.

1190
01:11:35,813 --> 01:11:38,173
Speaker 4: I have been forced to stop reading The Herald due

1191
01:11:38,213 --> 01:11:41,973
Speaker 4: to their consistent failure to report without bias. They are

1192
01:11:41,973 --> 01:11:44,013
Speaker 4: the best of a bad bunch, and I'm sure they

1193
01:11:44,053 --> 01:11:47,413
Speaker 4: think they do a good job but they, like most media,

1194
01:11:47,453 --> 01:11:51,653
Speaker 4: live in an echo chamber of ideology, which either justifies

1195
01:11:51,733 --> 01:11:55,733
Speaker 4: the slant or makes them completely blind to it. Either way,

1196
01:11:55,773 --> 01:11:58,853
Speaker 4: the Herald is not for me. The problem is that

1197
01:11:58,893 --> 01:12:02,013
Speaker 4: this leaves me an avoid Can you advise if you

1198
01:12:02,133 --> 01:12:04,253
Speaker 4: had to pick a couple of sources for local and

1199
01:12:04,493 --> 01:12:06,133
Speaker 4: international news, what would there be?

1200
01:12:06,773 --> 01:12:10,333
Speaker 2: Keep up the great work from mid Mike. I will

1201
01:12:10,333 --> 01:12:13,173
Speaker 2: give that some consideration. And I've got your address obviously,

1202
01:12:13,293 --> 01:12:17,373
Speaker 2: so I'll do my best to get back to you.

1203
01:12:17,373 --> 01:12:22,133
Speaker 2: You will notice, of course, that The Spectator Australia gets

1204
01:12:22,133 --> 01:12:26,013
Speaker 2: a lot of mention on this podcast. Why because it's

1205
01:12:26,093 --> 01:12:30,893
Speaker 2: damned good? Why because it presents when you heard what

1206
01:12:31,013 --> 01:12:35,813
Speaker 2: Jim Allen said about the editor and singing his praises,

1207
01:12:36,333 --> 01:12:38,253
Speaker 2: and he's quite right, Layton.

1208
01:12:38,373 --> 01:12:40,853
Speaker 4: I in defense of the Herald, I just want to

1209
01:12:40,893 --> 01:12:44,693
Speaker 4: sort of say that I always pick the journalists that

1210
01:12:44,773 --> 01:12:48,133
Speaker 4: I read because there are some mighty fine ones, you know,

1211
01:12:49,733 --> 01:12:52,613
Speaker 4: just check the byline and make decisions that way.

1212
01:12:53,093 --> 01:12:53,693
Speaker 2: Thank you, missus.

1213
01:12:53,733 --> 01:12:58,253
Speaker 4: Producer Laighton excellent interview with Jill Ovans from the Woman's

1214
01:12:58,333 --> 01:13:01,613
Speaker 4: Rights Party. She certainly appears to speak from a place

1215
01:13:01,613 --> 01:13:04,733
Speaker 4: of truth and common sense. Also good to hear a

1216
01:13:04,773 --> 01:13:08,693
Speaker 4: non confrontational interview with mutual respect for the view of

1217
01:13:08,693 --> 01:13:10,053
Speaker 4: what the other had to say.

1218
01:13:10,653 --> 01:13:11,933
Speaker 2: Where a nurse. Did you hear that?

1219
01:13:14,253 --> 01:13:15,173
Speaker 3: Yeah, not on this poe.

1220
01:13:15,493 --> 01:13:18,253
Speaker 2: I was pondering the the echo chambers and the bias

1221
01:13:18,413 --> 01:13:23,133
Speaker 2: of some sources, et cetera. And most of it's true,

1222
01:13:23,733 --> 01:13:27,093
Speaker 2: most of it. We all have our biases, every single

1223
01:13:27,213 --> 01:13:27,733
Speaker 2: one of us.

1224
01:13:27,973 --> 01:13:30,013
Speaker 4: Gosh, I'm going to put that on a loop.

1225
01:13:30,853 --> 01:13:34,373
Speaker 2: It's it's just the case with human nature. Can't you

1226
01:13:34,413 --> 01:13:35,453
Speaker 2: can't help it.

1227
01:13:35,453 --> 01:13:36,613
Speaker 4: That's it from me later.

1228
01:13:36,853 --> 01:13:39,253
Speaker 2: So we shall possibly see you next week.

1229
01:13:39,733 --> 01:13:41,613
Speaker 4: Are you will definitely see me next week?

1230
01:13:41,853 --> 01:13:42,973
Speaker 2: Or you know what number it is?

1231
01:13:43,573 --> 01:13:49,533
Speaker 4: Two five four two five five two five five unbelievable.

1232
01:13:49,813 --> 01:13:51,333
Speaker 2: You help the time pass.

1233
01:13:52,533 --> 01:13:53,733
Speaker 4: I'm pleased to hear it.

1234
01:14:04,413 --> 01:14:04,533
Speaker 3: Now.

1235
01:14:04,573 --> 01:14:07,453
Speaker 2: The morning of September four was one of those times

1236
01:14:07,453 --> 01:14:10,133
Speaker 2: that I mentioned where there is so much useful and

1237
01:14:10,293 --> 01:14:14,493
Speaker 2: interesting material available that it is nothing short of frustrating,

1238
01:14:14,573 --> 01:14:17,773
Speaker 2: even very frustrating. Those days seem to be increasing rapidly.

1239
01:14:18,293 --> 01:14:21,853
Speaker 2: Some matters a new Some are developments in those areas

1240
01:14:22,013 --> 01:14:25,573
Speaker 2: that we already devote a lot of attention. Freedom is

1241
01:14:25,653 --> 01:14:29,493
Speaker 2: at the forefront of matters, and free speech is arguably

1242
01:14:29,533 --> 01:14:34,813
Speaker 2: the most assaulted. David Sachs, a politically active venture capitalist,

1243
01:14:35,293 --> 01:14:40,813
Speaker 2: has penned an excellent read on the global struggle against authoritarianism,

1244
01:14:41,053 --> 01:14:44,133
Speaker 2: in which he points out hypocrisy displayed by Western nations

1245
01:14:44,213 --> 01:14:47,333
Speaker 2: during key moments in recent history, as well as the

1246
01:14:47,413 --> 01:14:52,213
Speaker 2: new Iron Curtain. The new Iron curtain targeting anyone in

1247
01:14:52,373 --> 01:14:56,293
Speaker 2: support of secure borders or freedom of speech in the

1248
01:14:56,293 --> 01:15:02,853
Speaker 2: global struggle against authoritarianism. The West's real enemy is itself,

1249
01:15:03,253 --> 01:15:06,973
Speaker 2: he writes. American politicians speak constantly about the indispensable role

1250
01:15:07,053 --> 01:15:10,813
Speaker 2: of the United States in leeading the free world against authoritarianism.

1251
01:15:11,413 --> 01:15:14,413
Speaker 2: If that is true, why is the White House so

1252
01:15:14,853 --> 01:15:18,093
Speaker 2: silent in the face of new global threats to free speech.

1253
01:15:18,653 --> 01:15:23,573
Speaker 2: In January, American citizen Gonzalo Lira died in a Ukrainian

1254
01:15:23,573 --> 01:15:27,933
Speaker 2: prison for posting YouTube videos. The state departments did not

1255
01:15:28,293 --> 01:15:32,333
Speaker 2: lift a finger to help. Last week, Telegram founder Pavel

1256
01:15:32,573 --> 01:15:36,293
Speaker 2: Durov was arrested in France for the crime of insufficient

1257
01:15:36,453 --> 01:15:41,173
Speaker 2: content moderation. Now Brazil has banned x for resisting the

1258
01:15:41,253 --> 01:15:45,773
Speaker 2: dictates of a tyrannical judge who salibates over the possibility

1259
01:15:45,773 --> 01:15:50,333
Speaker 2: of jailing Elon Musk. The EU is one step behind

1260
01:15:50,573 --> 01:15:54,933
Speaker 2: with bureaucrat Tiri Breton pursuing a criminal investigation against the

1261
01:15:55,093 --> 01:16:00,813
Speaker 2: Elon for platforming disinformation, which Breton defines to include a

1262
01:16:00,893 --> 01:16:05,453
Speaker 2: conversation with Donald Trump. Imagine if in this country leading

1263
01:16:05,493 --> 01:16:10,093
Speaker 2: politicians of the government tried doing something like that. Is

1264
01:16:10,133 --> 01:16:14,053
Speaker 2: it impossible to believe? In the UK, the government of

1265
01:16:14,253 --> 01:16:18,533
Speaker 2: Kiostama imprisons critics of open borders with more zeal than

1266
01:16:18,573 --> 01:16:22,653
Speaker 2: it prosecutes violent crime. In Canada, Justin Trudeau crushed a

1267
01:16:22,733 --> 01:16:27,613
Speaker 2: trucker protest against vaccine maddates by asserting sweeping new powers

1268
01:16:27,733 --> 01:16:32,613
Speaker 2: to freeze bank accounts. Hello, at no point has the

1269
01:16:32,613 --> 01:16:35,813
Speaker 2: White House expressed concern about this new iron curtain that

1270
01:16:35,933 --> 01:16:39,413
Speaker 2: seems to be descending across the West. Quite the contrary,

1271
01:16:39,893 --> 01:16:44,333
Speaker 2: Mark Zuckerberg confirmed that the Biden Harris administration repeatedly pressured

1272
01:16:44,453 --> 01:16:49,933
Speaker 2: Meta to censor during COVID. Worse, the FBI primed Facebook

1273
01:16:50,013 --> 01:16:53,093
Speaker 2: to censor true stories about the Biden family corruption by

1274
01:16:53,133 --> 01:16:58,293
Speaker 2: suggesting that Hunter Biden's laptop was Russian disinformation, even though

1275
01:16:58,293 --> 01:17:03,493
Speaker 2: the FBI knew it was authentic. Barring court intervention, TikTok

1276
01:17:03,533 --> 01:17:06,253
Speaker 2: will shut down in the US on January nineteen, twenty

1277
01:17:06,293 --> 01:17:09,573
Speaker 2: twenty five, thanks to a new power authorized by Congress

1278
01:17:09,613 --> 01:17:14,013
Speaker 2: to ban websites and applications that the president determines are

1279
01:17:14,133 --> 01:17:18,973
Speaker 2: subject to the influence of a foreign adversary. X may

1280
01:17:19,013 --> 01:17:21,973
Speaker 2: not be far behind if liberal elites and deep state

1281
01:17:22,013 --> 01:17:28,013
Speaker 2: apparatics like Robert Reich and Alexander Vindmann get their wish.

1282
01:17:28,973 --> 01:17:32,373
Speaker 2: They have called for the US to adopt Brazil's and

1283
01:17:32,733 --> 01:17:38,933
Speaker 2: the EU's approach and reign in elon musk. Remember Alexander Vindmann,

1284
01:17:39,853 --> 01:17:44,533
Speaker 2: he was the Ukrainian who dumped on Trump when he

1285
01:17:44,613 --> 01:17:47,213
Speaker 2: was president. I think was over the phone call, was

1286
01:17:47,253 --> 01:17:49,733
Speaker 2: it not? And it was a load of bs. He

1287
01:17:49,813 --> 01:17:53,893
Speaker 2: is a miserable little fill in the space. Hypocritically, the

1288
01:17:53,933 --> 01:17:57,133
Speaker 2: same voices demanding this crackdown are also the loudest in

1289
01:17:57,173 --> 01:18:00,213
Speaker 2: proclaiming the West to be engaged in a war on

1290
01:18:00,453 --> 01:18:05,773
Speaker 2: authoritarianism against countries like Russia and China. But whatever their sins,

1291
01:18:06,213 --> 01:18:10,013
Speaker 2: Russia and China are in no position to deprive American

1292
01:18:10,053 --> 01:18:14,453
Speaker 2: citizens of their free speech rights. Only our own government

1293
01:18:14,493 --> 01:18:18,573
Speaker 2: can do that. Similarly, if Western leaders truly wanted to

1294
01:18:18,573 --> 01:18:22,773
Speaker 2: prevent authoritarianism, the easiest place to start would be at home,

1295
01:18:23,773 --> 01:18:28,573
Speaker 2: protecting the civil liberties of its own citizens. Instead, they

1296
01:18:28,653 --> 01:18:32,973
Speaker 2: seem obsessed with deflecting the public's attention onto foreign enemies,

1297
01:18:33,533 --> 01:18:37,653
Speaker 2: as all well depicted in the Two Minutes Hate in

1298
01:18:37,773 --> 01:18:42,133
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four. As this battle over free speech heats

1299
01:18:42,173 --> 01:18:45,613
Speaker 2: up in an election year, where do the candidates stand.

1300
01:18:46,453 --> 01:18:49,293
Speaker 2: Donald Trump has declared his support for free speech, whereas

1301
01:18:50,013 --> 01:18:54,173
Speaker 2: Carmela Harris has said nothing and can be expected to

1302
01:18:54,253 --> 01:18:59,813
Speaker 2: continue her administration's policy of tacit approval of creeping censorship.

1303
01:19:01,973 --> 01:19:06,773
Speaker 2: The word creeping has variations on it. In just two months,

1304
01:19:06,773 --> 01:19:10,253
Speaker 2: America will decide do we actually lead the free world

1305
01:19:10,333 --> 01:19:13,413
Speaker 2: in standing up for free speech or do we accept

1306
01:19:13,413 --> 01:19:18,333
Speaker 2: the authoritarianism we claim to detest? So much pretty good

1307
01:19:18,373 --> 01:19:21,453
Speaker 2: peace from David Sachs. And it was only a couple

1308
01:19:21,493 --> 01:19:24,293
Speaker 2: of days ago that I was talking to someone and

1309
01:19:24,413 --> 01:19:26,893
Speaker 2: made mention of the fact that the Free Speech Union

1310
01:19:27,533 --> 01:19:31,933
Speaker 2: is bringing yet another free speech speaker to the country

1311
01:19:32,173 --> 01:19:35,653
Speaker 2: later in the year, and I thought, well, I didn't

1312
01:19:35,693 --> 01:19:39,253
Speaker 2: just think I commented to this. I commented to the

1313
01:19:39,253 --> 01:19:42,493
Speaker 2: person I was discussing this with has suggested maybe they

1314
01:19:42,533 --> 01:19:44,733
Speaker 2: were over cooking it a bit, just bringing too many

1315
01:19:44,733 --> 01:19:48,093
Speaker 2: people to the country. You read things like that and

1316
01:19:48,173 --> 01:19:53,013
Speaker 2: others that I've got here, and you think maybe they're

1317
01:19:53,133 --> 01:19:58,613
Speaker 2: under cooking it. Maybe there's room for more. The only

1318
01:19:58,693 --> 01:20:03,093
Speaker 2: question I have is how much of it is impacting

1319
01:20:03,533 --> 01:20:07,573
Speaker 2: on those who know nothing about it or very little.

1320
01:20:09,333 --> 01:20:12,373
Speaker 2: It's a very good question to contemplate, so to another

1321
01:20:12,413 --> 01:20:15,053
Speaker 2: part of the world, and I'll do it this way.

1322
01:20:15,493 --> 01:20:19,533
Speaker 2: I'm quoting. When I grew up, Great Britain was exotic.

1323
01:20:20,213 --> 01:20:23,133
Speaker 2: There were red telephone booths, Buckingham Palace, black cabs, and

1324
01:20:23,173 --> 01:20:27,133
Speaker 2: of course the Bobbies and the beef eaters. England was

1325
01:20:27,173 --> 01:20:30,613
Speaker 2: the land of Shakespeare, Queen Elizabeth the First and Henry

1326
01:20:30,653 --> 01:20:36,933
Speaker 2: the Fourth. For me, says the author. Britain was history incarlate. Obviously,

1327
01:20:37,413 --> 01:20:40,813
Speaker 2: says the author, whose name is Vince Coiner. And I'll

1328
01:20:40,853 --> 01:20:46,293
Speaker 2: give it to you now, Vince Coiner Coyne R. Because

1329
01:20:46,333 --> 01:20:49,893
Speaker 2: some some of you will to look this up. So

1330
01:20:49,933 --> 01:20:54,133
Speaker 2: if you google Vince Coyner you'll most likely get it. Obviously,

1331
01:20:54,213 --> 01:20:59,813
Speaker 2: part referring to Britain was history incarnate. He goes on. Obviously,

1332
01:20:59,933 --> 01:21:02,213
Speaker 2: part of that comes from the fact that as Americans,

1333
01:21:02,253 --> 01:21:04,333
Speaker 2: we share a great deal of history with the British.

1334
01:21:04,373 --> 01:21:07,053
Speaker 2: Not only did we split from Britain in seventeen seventy six,

1335
01:21:07,453 --> 01:21:10,733
Speaker 2: but our history continued to stay close until modern times,

1336
01:21:11,133 --> 01:21:14,293
Speaker 2: from the US joining Britain and the fight to end slavery,

1337
01:21:14,333 --> 01:21:18,493
Speaker 2: to fighting two World Wars together, to the British invasion

1338
01:21:18,653 --> 01:21:21,613
Speaker 2: earned in the nineteen sixties that brought us the Beatles

1339
01:21:22,293 --> 01:21:26,293
Speaker 2: and the Rolling Stones and the Kinks and put pay

1340
01:21:26,333 --> 01:21:31,253
Speaker 2: to Elvis Presley and Bobby Ridell. I added that modern

1341
01:21:31,373 --> 01:21:35,493
Speaker 2: England largely dates back to ten sixty six, when William

1342
01:21:35,493 --> 01:21:37,853
Speaker 2: the Conqueror across the English Channel and put the finishing

1343
01:21:37,893 --> 01:21:41,773
Speaker 2: touches on a unification that had been evolving since the

1344
01:21:41,893 --> 01:21:45,293
Speaker 2: Romans abandoned the island in four to ten AD. The

1345
01:21:45,533 --> 01:21:49,133
Speaker 2: thousand year span since has seen Britain, like the rest

1346
01:21:49,173 --> 01:21:53,973
Speaker 2: of the world, evolved, always however haltingly in the direction

1347
01:21:54,053 --> 01:21:57,693
Speaker 2: of freedom. This journey began with the Magna Carta, agreed

1348
01:21:57,693 --> 01:22:00,973
Speaker 2: to by King John in twelve fifteen, a watershed event

1349
01:22:01,053 --> 01:22:03,853
Speaker 2: in Western culture. It limited the king's powers and declared

1350
01:22:03,893 --> 01:22:07,213
Speaker 2: that he was subject to the law, guaranteed church rights,

1351
01:22:07,773 --> 01:22:12,333
Speaker 2: access to an impartial system of justice, and limited taxes.

1352
01:22:13,173 --> 01:22:15,333
Speaker 2: And so it goes on. This, by the way, is

1353
01:22:15,333 --> 01:22:19,173
Speaker 2: a four page is a four page article. But I

1354
01:22:19,213 --> 01:22:23,133
Speaker 2: believe I didn't tell you the title. Britain, which burst

1355
01:22:23,253 --> 01:22:29,613
Speaker 2: American ideas about liberty, has embraced despotism, and therein and

1356
01:22:29,693 --> 01:22:33,493
Speaker 2: therein lies a very interesting discussion. I move forward a

1357
01:22:33,493 --> 01:22:35,773
Speaker 2: little and give you a couple more quotes. The genesis

1358
01:22:35,773 --> 01:22:39,573
Speaker 2: of today's dystopia began almost three decades ago, when immigration

1359
01:22:39,773 --> 01:22:43,173
Speaker 2: took off in the late nineteen nineties and early two thousands.

1360
01:22:43,973 --> 01:22:47,053
Speaker 2: The number of non EU immigrants averaged over two hundred

1361
01:22:47,093 --> 01:22:50,933
Speaker 2: thousand a year for a decade, then skyrocketed after twenty twenty.

1362
01:22:51,613 --> 01:22:54,493
Speaker 2: A nation of fifty five million in two thousand is

1363
01:22:54,533 --> 01:22:59,093
Speaker 2: today over sixty five million, with almost all of that

1364
01:22:59,213 --> 01:23:03,333
Speaker 2: growth coming from immigration, a majority from non EU nations,

1365
01:23:03,693 --> 01:23:07,613
Speaker 2: particularly from the Middle Eastern Africa countries that do not

1366
01:23:07,773 --> 01:23:12,893
Speaker 2: share British culture or importantly, religion. It's also likely that

1367
01:23:13,013 --> 01:23:18,213
Speaker 2: many of the ostensibly EU immigrants originated in those non

1368
01:23:18,293 --> 01:23:23,533
Speaker 2: EU countries. As a consequence, London, home to twenty percent

1369
01:23:23,573 --> 01:23:29,133
Speaker 2: of Britain's As a consequence, London, home to twenty percent

1370
01:23:29,173 --> 01:23:33,413
Speaker 2: of England's population, has gone from approximately eighty percent native

1371
01:23:33,413 --> 01:23:37,293
Speaker 2: white British in nineteen ninety one to approximately thirty six

1372
01:23:37,333 --> 01:23:42,053
Speaker 2: percent in twenty twenty one. The native population has surely

1373
01:23:42,133 --> 01:23:46,933
Speaker 2: shrunk more since then. The results of this transformation of

1374
01:23:46,973 --> 01:23:50,573
Speaker 2: Britain from a largely British nation to something else has

1375
01:23:50,653 --> 01:23:57,213
Speaker 2: been monstrous. And then the author runs through a list

1376
01:23:57,293 --> 01:24:02,053
Speaker 2: of events that have happened over a period of time. Specifically,

1377
01:24:02,093 --> 01:24:07,853
Speaker 2: more recently, Britain, which birthed American ideas about liberty, has

1378
01:24:07,893 --> 01:24:12,933
Speaker 2: embraced despotism. It's worthy of your attention, I think also

1379
01:24:13,013 --> 01:24:18,693
Speaker 2: by Vince Coiner c y n Eer via Americanthinker dot com.

1380
01:24:19,053 --> 01:24:21,213
Speaker 2: And at the top, you know how they put quotes

1381
01:24:21,613 --> 01:24:25,653
Speaker 2: from famous people. Freedom is never more than one generation

1382
01:24:25,773 --> 01:24:30,973
Speaker 2: away from extinction from the greatest president of well for

1383
01:24:31,013 --> 01:24:33,813
Speaker 2: a long time, Ronald Reagan. And that will take us

1384
01:24:33,813 --> 01:24:37,413
Speaker 2: out for podcasts two hundred and fifty four. If you

1385
01:24:37,413 --> 01:24:40,493
Speaker 2: would like to correspond with us, and do I repeat

1386
01:24:40,533 --> 01:24:44,013
Speaker 2: it again, we love getting a correspondence Layton at Newstalks

1387
01:24:44,013 --> 01:24:47,533
Speaker 2: AB dot co dot nz or Carolyn at newstalksb dot

1388
01:24:47,573 --> 01:24:52,813
Speaker 2: co dot nz. And again I'll say, if you being critical,

1389
01:24:52,853 --> 01:24:55,333
Speaker 2: don't hesitate, go for your life. If that's what you think,

1390
01:24:56,213 --> 01:25:00,093
Speaker 2: what you think is honest, then I'm very happy to

1391
01:25:00,173 --> 01:25:03,933
Speaker 2: accept it and consider it so latent at newstalks AB

1392
01:25:04,133 --> 01:25:08,453
Speaker 2: dot co dot nz. As always, we shall return very

1393
01:25:08,453 --> 01:25:13,413
Speaker 2: shortly and as always, thank you for listening and we

1394
01:25:13,493 --> 01:25:14,133
Speaker 2: will talk soon.

1395
01:25:15,333 --> 01:25:16,573
Speaker 3: M M.

1396
01:25:22,013 --> 01:25:25,853
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talks at B Listen

1397
01:25:25,933 --> 01:25:28,893
Speaker 1: live on air or online, and keep our shows with

1398
01:25:28,973 --> 01:25:32,133
Speaker 1: you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio