1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,800 Speaker 1: Now the rules around making a citizen arrest look said 2 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: to be loosened the retail crime deal we talked to 3 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: Paul Goldsmith about as officially being announced later on today. 4 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:09,959 Speaker 1: As it stands, security guard, shop workers, the public, et cetera, 5 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: can only make a citizens arrest in two instances, and 6 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: a bit you didn't notice is the stupidest rules going 7 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: and item has been stolen that's worth more than a 8 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: thousand dollars, or an incidence has taken place overnight between 9 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: the hours of nine pm and six am. Anyway, the 10 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:26,240 Speaker 1: form of Police Minister Stuart Nash is with us on 11 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: this very good morning. 12 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 2: To you very well. 13 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: Indeed, the broad idea, I mean, first of all those 14 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: numbers that we got this morning, the two percent decrease 15 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 1: in violent crime, would you concede, despite your political background, 16 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: that some of what this government is doing actually might 17 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 1: be working, could be society. 18 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 2: Keeping in mind, Mike, I was a police minister that 19 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 2: increased police numbers by eighteen hundred scot to throw that 20 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 2: in the yeah, good on you. 21 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: But the numbers are coming down. Numbers or not, the 22 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 1: stats are the stats, and a violent crime is coming down, 23 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: that's a winn isn't it. 24 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 2: It's fantastic with iblant crime coming down. But what we 25 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 2: talked about our citizens arrest is retail crimes go up 26 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 2: by about twelve percent, and you've got these keyws who 27 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 2: are working really bloody hard to make ends meet, often 28 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 2: not making that much money because queues are spending whole 29 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 2: lot of money online and TAMU, and then you get 30 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 2: these misgrints coming in and stealing from them and they 31 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 2: don't have the ability to do anything that's crazy. 32 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: Do you think did you ever look at it by 33 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: the way citizens arrest as police minister? 34 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 2: I don't think we did, and I was resting my 35 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 2: brain to think why we wouldn't have. You've got a 36 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 2: situation right where if you steal stuff, which is you know, 37 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 2: obviously you're doing something every us to do that's pretty serious. 38 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 2: You could just shop of them. Then the cost of 39 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 2: prosecuting someone is substantial competed to the crime it's been committed. 40 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:40,559 Speaker 2: But what you've ended up with is in a really 41 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 2: terrible situation where these guys just get away with it. 42 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 2: So what we were seriously looking at is some form 43 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 2: of fine or something along those lines which was proportionate 44 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 2: with a citizens arrest though. Yeah, you know, I'm a fan, 45 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 2: there's no doubt about that. But it's got to be proportionate. 46 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 2: You know, we don't want to get to a stage 47 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 2: we have big, tough guys like yourself are using this 48 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 2: to beat the crap cut someone. 49 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: That's exactly right. Last video I watched was a guy. 50 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: There were two of them, but he was massive. He 51 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: was a huge I mean he would have been one 52 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: hundred and twenty kg's and he had under one arm 53 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: he had a slab of beer and under the other 54 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: he had literally a side of whatever pork beef and 55 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: he walked out of the shop past the security guard. 56 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: Would a security guard if they had the right take 57 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: a guy that size. 58 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 2: On, probably not unless he had some form of martial 59 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 2: arts train. So this is the thing. So people have 60 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 2: got to put their own safety serious. And I don't 61 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 2: think there'd been an employer who would disagree with that. 62 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 2: So you know, there might be an instant with security 63 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 2: guard challenges this guy. But if in the end he 64 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 2: feels that, you know, it's going to be a hell 65 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 2: of enlisted his life of limb, then no. But what 66 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 2: you do do is you make sure that you got 67 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 2: the you know, the cameras to place, you call the cops. 68 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 2: The other situation we find themselves in the course is that, 69 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 2: you know, if someone's shoplifting or you know, we've all 70 00:02:55,880 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 2: seen and I've seen someone's pushing a Trillia boad groceries 71 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 2: out of the supermarket, Well what do you do. You 72 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 2: don't dial one one one, You can't dal triple five 73 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 2: because the you know, and the police are often too busy, 74 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 2: you know, going after the really bad guys, and so 75 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 2: people get away scott free. Being able to make systems 76 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 2: a rest in this case and hold the person to 77 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 2: the police turn up, I think is just a pragmatic move. 78 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 2: I'm very supportive. 79 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: Okay, So so put your hat back on if you 80 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,079 Speaker 1: were still minister, because the obvious question is are what 81 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: level of force do you sit on them? Do three 82 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: people sit on them when the guy goes, oh my 83 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: arm is breaking, do you still hold them down? And 84 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: then are there repercussions down the track for people getting 85 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: a bit carried away? 86 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 2: Well, let's flip that around. What you can't have is 87 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 2: a situation where well at the moment, where people can't 88 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 2: protect themselves right or they can't spot some of them 89 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 2: stealing your property. It has got to be proportionate. And 90 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 2: because it is a change to the Crimes Act, it's 91 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 2: going to go through Select Committee and the sort of 92 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 2: in the full parliamentary process, so no doubt they will 93 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 2: come up with some with some measure there. But it 94 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 2: is a good point I suspect. You know, again, you're 95 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 2: not going to be able to pull out a baseball 96 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 2: bat and the guy because he stole a cigarettes or something. 97 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 2: But what you've got to be able to do, or 98 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 2: got to be allowed to do, is use proportionate force 99 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 2: depending on the circumstance. So you know, at the moment 100 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 2: dairy owners and sunny cushiers talks about this until he's 101 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 2: blue and faith they can't do anything for fear of 102 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 2: being prosecuted if they do bring out a basebook back 103 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 2: to try and clock someone when they're protecting themselves or 104 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 2: their stock. You've got to give these guys cover to 105 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 2: use proportionate force given the circumstance. So you know you 106 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 2: wouldn't do that if someone's will trying to load out 107 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 2: the grocers out of the supermarke, but you might have 108 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 2: come with a couple of knives and that have gotten 109 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:44,799 Speaker 2: for you will have gone to the smokes cabinet behind 110 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 2: the counter, so I think it'll be proportionate to the 111 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 2: circumstances of play yourself. 112 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: The good to have you on the program, Stuart Nash, 113 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: former Police Ministry. For more from the mic Asking Breakfast, 114 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: listen live to news talks. It'd be from six am weekdays, 115 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on I Radio.