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Speaker 1: As usual, Nicola willis our finance ministers with us. Hey Nikola,

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Speaker 1: Hi Heather, Now, Nicola, have you spoken to Neil about

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Speaker 1: his FIBs?

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Speaker 2: Well? As I said last week, I did speak to

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Speaker 2: Neil last week to share my view that while of

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Speaker 2: course they were initially limited the Reserve Bank and what

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Speaker 2: they could say about the terms of Adrian Or's exit agreement,

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Speaker 2: once they had worked through that, they could have provided

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Speaker 2: some clarifying statements more promptly than they did.

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Speaker 1: How promptly.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think as soon as they'd worked through what

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Speaker 2: they could say with the former governor, then there was

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Speaker 2: obviously significant public interest in that information. Yeah, and it

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Speaker 2: would have been in everyone's best interests for them to

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Speaker 2: share that in an earlier junction.

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Speaker 1: How long did it take them to work through this

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Speaker 1: with Adrian.

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Speaker 2: Or, Well, that's a question for Professor Quigley rather than

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Speaker 2: for me.

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Speaker 1: What was it like on the day, within a week,

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Speaker 1: within a month, within three months?

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Speaker 2: Do you know? I don't know the answer to that question,

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Speaker 2: but my point is simply there were always going to

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Speaker 2: be Official Information Act requests public interest in this matter.

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Speaker 2: So as soon as they had worked through what they

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Speaker 2: could say, I think it would have been in everyone's

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Speaker 2: interest for them to come out with that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, fair enough on all of that stuff. But

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Speaker 1: he didn't have to go out there in fib did he?

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Speaker 1: And he did, and have you spoken to him about that?

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Speaker 2: Well, his view is that the statements that he made

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Speaker 2: on day one were necessarily limited, both because the funding agreement.

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Speaker 1: They weren't limited agreed they would just outright FIBs.

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Speaker 2: Well, as I say, and i'd point you to his statement.

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Speaker 2: He has explained that he believes that both the terms

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Speaker 2: of the exit agreement and the working through the finalization

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Speaker 2: of the five year funding Great Agreement limited what he

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Speaker 2: could say.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, what do you think as the finance minister?

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Speaker 1: Do you think that he was completely honest?

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Speaker 2: What I think is exactly what I've just said to you,

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Speaker 2: which is, as soon as they had worked through the

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Speaker 2: details of what could not I know that in the

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Speaker 2: public them.

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Speaker 1: To share that Nichola. That doesn't excuse him getting up

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Speaker 1: on the day and basically telling porkies, does it.

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Speaker 2: Well, I've been in a difficult position on this here,

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Speaker 2: which is that my view has been the employment agreement

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Speaker 2: was between the governor and his board, and so I

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Speaker 2: have at all stages sought to remove myself from those

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Speaker 2: employment discussions and how they were communicated publicly, and in

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Speaker 2: doing that, I have relied on the board to take

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Speaker 2: responsibility for both those things.

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Speaker 1: That the reason are you trying to avoid right now

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Speaker 1: casting judgment on what Neil quickly said and the porkies

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Speaker 1: that he told.

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Speaker 2: Well, I have already cast judgment. I was pretty blunt

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Speaker 2: last week. I said, I think they should have pulled

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Speaker 2: their socks up on this one.

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Speaker 1: You were talking about. Does I mean that's a completely

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Speaker 1: different thing, Nicola getting in one hundred days is different

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Speaker 1: to this guy who's the Reserve Bank governor getting up

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Speaker 1: and not telling us the truth.

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Speaker 2: No, I think if you look at my statements carefully,

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Speaker 2: my point that I'm mate was that this information could

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Speaker 2: have been conveyed sooner. Heather, and you and I both

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Speaker 2: know it doesn't require an Official Information Act request for

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Speaker 2: public bodies to make themselves publicly accountable, and I think

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Speaker 2: this information being in the public domain earlier would have

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Speaker 2: been helpful to everyone involved.

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Speaker 1: Now, have you spoken to Neil Quickly about his term

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Speaker 1: as the chair?

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Speaker 2: Well, as you know, he's already on a two year

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Speaker 2: term rather than a longer term, and that I have

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Speaker 2: previously spoken to him about that and the fact that

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Speaker 2: we are obviously in a period of transition at the

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Speaker 2: Reserve Bank, as a search for a new governor is

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Speaker 2: underway and we have also been replacing people on the

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Speaker 2: Reserve Bank board. So I've made it clear to him

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Speaker 2: that I view his role as supporting those transitions as

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Speaker 2: they take place.

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Speaker 1: As in staying there for two years to see it

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Speaker 1: through or getting out of the way.

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Speaker 2: Well, ultimately that will be up to Neil quickly, because

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Speaker 2: my view is that what's required for the Reserve Bank

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Speaker 2: as an institution is that we have smooth transitions.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to see him out of there before

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Speaker 1: two years are up?

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Speaker 2: I have confidence in him doing the role as it

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Speaker 2: currently stands.

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Speaker 3: And what I am interested in is the Reserve Bank

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Speaker 3: remaining a sound, respected institution and that it manages its

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Speaker 3: transitions at a senior leadership role level well, and that

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Speaker 3: the Reserve Bank has the people in place to do that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let me ask you this, Given that he has

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Speaker 1: indicated that he's more than happy to stand up in

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Speaker 1: front of the country and just concoct stories, do you

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Speaker 1: trust him when he talks to.

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Speaker 2: You, well, I trust that he found himself in a

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Speaker 2: challenging situation where he felt bound by the terms of

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Speaker 2: an exit agreement by privacy law, and that he was

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Speaker 2: then weighing that against his need to be publicly open.

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Speaker 2: And as I've said, I think I've been pretty blunt.

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Speaker 2: At the minute, he knew that what else he could

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Speaker 2: communicate would have been better if that had been communicated sooner.

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Speaker 2: This was all foreseeable so far as I can see,

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Speaker 2: and it frustrates me that we're in this situation.

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Speaker 1: That was not a yes. By the way, so we'll

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Speaker 1: just note that what happened to you guys cutting back

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Speaker 1: the public servants and we're owned two thousand down.

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Speaker 2: Well, we're doing a great job. We've reversed the trend,

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Speaker 2: which was an exploding growth. And what we've done is

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Speaker 2: we've put the emphasis away from the back office roles,

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Speaker 2: the policy analysts, the admin roles, and what you are

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Speaker 2: continuing to see that there are people being hired for

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Speaker 2: is things like customer service roles. And that's what you'd

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Speaker 2: expect because we're a government that is focused on delivering

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Speaker 2: very good services.

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Speaker 1: To how many frontline how many frontline staff have you hired.

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Speaker 2: Frontline staff. I can't give you a number right now,

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Speaker 2: but nurses alone seventeen hundred more, several more teachers, hundreds more.

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Speaker 1: Correctly account how many of the We don't count the

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Speaker 1: teachers in the public servant numbers, do we?

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Speaker 2: So that depends on whether you're using the broader public

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Speaker 2: service definition or the narrower one. The narrow that the

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Speaker 2: narrow one in terms of the core public service numbers, No,

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Speaker 2: they are not.

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Speaker 1: Can you understand why this is profoundly disappointing to people?

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Speaker 1: Because because we all understand, I mean, you'd have to

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Speaker 1: be an idiot not to see that the country is

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Speaker 1: in a really tough place. We're spending far too much money.

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Speaker 1: We're blowing out our budgets every single year, and this

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Speaker 1: is an obvious way for you guys to pair the

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Speaker 1: spending back. There are way too many public servants as

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Speaker 1: a reportion of our population, and you guys don't do it.

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Speaker 2: But we are doing it. So there's been an eleven

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Speaker 2: percent reduction, and clerical and admind roles eight percent reduction,

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Speaker 2: and policy jobs, some increase in contact into workers, some

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Speaker 2: increase in inspectors, and any two down, well that's overall.

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Speaker 2: But still I think in eleven percent reduction and clerical

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Speaker 2: and admin rolls eight percent reduction policy jobs, that's progress.

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Speaker 1: Do you know where you've taken us back to the

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Speaker 1: last time we had this many public servants March twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty three.

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Speaker 2: Well, he peaked in December twenty twenty three, and since

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Speaker 2: then the only way has been down. And so we

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Speaker 2: are making good progress. And I tell you what, either

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Speaker 2: every single job reduction we have made has been hollowed

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Speaker 2: at and screened at by our political opponents, who would

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Speaker 2: have it believed that the only way to grow employment

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Speaker 2: in this country is to hire more public servants in Wellington.

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Speaker 2: We haven't taken that view, and we've been pretty staunch

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Speaker 2: and continuing to make progress.

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Speaker 1: How much more are the wool carpets costing us than

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Speaker 1: the nylon carpets?

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Speaker 2: Well, I've heard your cynicism, so I've gone and double

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Speaker 2: checked on this. So actually, the purchase price for the

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Speaker 2: woolen carpet, I'm advised, is no more than the purchase

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Speaker 2: price for nylon under the old contract. What happened here.

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Speaker 2: I don't have the dollars, But what you care about

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Speaker 2: is are we paying a premium over nylon. Answer, No, no,

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Speaker 2: what happened.

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Speaker 1: I know what the nylon cost, the cost forty three

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Speaker 1: dollars eighteen per square meter, and clearly the wall is

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Speaker 1: more expensive.

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Speaker 2: No, what I've been advised is that the contract for

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Speaker 2: kying Aura is no more expensive than nylon was under

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Speaker 2: the old contract. What the terms are that they got

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Speaker 2: depends on how of course people showed up, because when

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Speaker 2: people get a big commercial tender like this, you'll find

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Speaker 2: that they shaften their price that they're offering. That's exactly

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Speaker 2: what happened here. Well, this is your chance, and I

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Speaker 2: think will came with their absolute shaffer steel. They shaftened

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Speaker 2: their pencil. That's good news for the industry, the one.

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Speaker 1: To create eighteen per square meter for the wall.

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Speaker 2: As I said, I do not have that number. But

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Speaker 2: what I have is a cart iron assurance. It is

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Speaker 2: no more than the purchase price for a nylon under their.

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Speaker 1: It's not true at all. You know that what it'll be.

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Speaker 2: You getting forty three from here this googled it. Yes,

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Speaker 2: but commercials, Yeah, but that's different from the commercial supply agreement.

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Speaker 1: That crying or that is the crying of order deal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, in which case, as I've said to you,

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Speaker 2: what I've been assured is that it is no more

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Speaker 2: than you know what they're doing.

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Speaker 1: They'll be taking into account they've waited it differently, right,

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Speaker 1: So price is only one waiting when it comes to

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Speaker 1: a tender. Right, so they're waiting other things like is

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Speaker 1: it good for the country?

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Speaker 2: No? No, no, that is the straight purchase price comparison. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So how can even start counting all of the other

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Speaker 2: if it's one crank about?

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Speaker 1: Well, if it's the same price, why are you the

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Speaker 1: second person I've asked and you guys can't tell me.

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Speaker 1: You can't tell me the price. The guy okay, can't

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Speaker 1: tell me the.

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Speaker 2: Price because we don't in my case, because I don't

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Speaker 2: get given those operational contract details, which are also commercially sensitive.

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Speaker 2: Is it no, there's no red here? Can I just

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Speaker 2: tell you your cynicism is misplaced. All got a chance

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Speaker 2: to sharpen their offer. They came up with an offer

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Speaker 2: that met on price and delivers a product. That is

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Speaker 2: what I'll tell you.

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Speaker 1: What what can you go? Would you mind? I know

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Speaker 1: you're busy, but can your people, just as ask KO

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Speaker 1: will bring worth what the prices and come back to

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Speaker 1: us next.

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Speaker 2: I'm just starting to feel for you and your colleagues

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Speaker 2: and your family who clearly are going to have to

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Speaker 2: have plastic carpet. Yeah, plastic acoustic panels. Plastic well as

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Speaker 2: a beautiful product. When given the chance to compete on price,

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Speaker 2: it can it delivers massive benefits. I don't know what

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Speaker 2: you've got against sheep farmers, but personally I think they're great.

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Speaker 2: And the fact that they've turned up with a really

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Speaker 2: competitive price it is good news for everyone. And there's

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Speaker 2: only one person who's upset about it, and it's here

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Speaker 2: the would appear that you're more of an optimist than this, Heathery,

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Speaker 2: and this is actually a one one for everyone, So

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Speaker 2: let's not rain on the parade.

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Speaker 1: Have you turned up with a cold and everything? Are

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Speaker 1: you working through a sickness?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, I'm sorry for my voice. Callers will not

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Speaker 2: be appreciating it this evening. Well, it turns out the

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Speaker 2: ministerial title doesn't make you immune to the viruses that

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Speaker 2: go around the world.

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Speaker 1: We all appreciate a hard worker, so thank you for

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Speaker 1: turning up. Nichola Willis, the Finance Minister. For more from

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Speaker 1: Heather Duplicity Ellen Drive Listen Live and Talks. It'd be

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Speaker 1: from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio