1 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: Kyoda. 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald, A chance 4 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 2: for New Zealand to lead change. 5 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:21,959 Speaker 1: In the world of ethical investing. 6 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 2: As of last year, more than half a billion dollars 7 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 2: of New Zealander's Kiwisaver and other retail investments were lent 8 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 2: to countries on a high alert for human rights violations. 9 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:39,159 Speaker 2: The new paper from MOTU Research urges fund managers and 10 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 2: industry bodies to lift standards. But what does ethical investing 11 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:48,319 Speaker 2: mean and how can you tell how your funds are 12 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 2: being used? Today? On the Front Page, lead researcher Anne 13 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 2: Marie Brook is with us to break down the paper 14 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 2: and how we might be able to be socially responsible 15 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 2: with our investment instuments. So, Anne Marie, can you explain 16 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 2: the main focus and purpose I suppose of this research. 17 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, So, this research is all about helping people get 18 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 3: more insight into what their money is supporting when they invest. 19 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 3: So we wanted to find out what extent the money 20 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 3: and all of our key we Saver accounts is being 21 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 3: lent to countries with good versus bad human rights practices, 22 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 3: And I mean not everyone may be aware that in 23 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 3: their key saver accounts there's a mix of investments across 24 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 3: different types of assets, so it includes both shares and companies, 25 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 3: and then also investments and government bonds, and it's that 26 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 3: government bond part that we're focused on. So government, you know, 27 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 3: investments and government bonds are essentially loans to the governments 28 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 3: who have issued those bonds. And so the question then 29 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 3: is which governments do New Zealanders want to be lending to. 30 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 3: We looked at lending to governments at both ends of 31 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 3: the human rights spectrum, so we looked at lending to 32 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:04,559 Speaker 3: the best performers and the worst performers. 33 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 4: On the worst performance. 34 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 3: Side, we found that about half a billion dollars is 35 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 3: being linked lent to governments with the worst. 36 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 4: Human rights performance. And the thing that people. 37 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 3: Might be surprised to hear is that currently there's just 38 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 3: no system for evaluating that. So there's some responsible investment 39 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 3: certifications that focus mainly on investments and companies, so you know, 40 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 3: you often hear, for example, research about you know, how 41 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 3: much money and key sover is being invested in weapons 42 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 3: manufacturers and things like that, but right now there's no 43 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 3: system that monitors the kind of human through human rights 44 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 3: lens investments in sovereign bonds government bonds, which is what 45 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 3: all of us are doing through our KEE we saver, 46 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 3: whether we know it or not. So we're really just 47 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 3: wanting to, you know, bring more attention and insight into 48 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 3: that part of the investment. 49 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 2: That's which countries did report those high alerts for human 50 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 2: rights abuses? 51 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: And what does high alert even mean? 52 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 4: Good question. 53 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 3: So we use data from the Human Rights Measurement Initiative 54 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 3: or HERMEI for short, which is a global NGO that 55 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 3: consistently tracks human rights across countries. And HERMI looks at 56 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 3: a range of rights, so includes things like killings and torture, 57 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 3: freedom of speech, and rights to things like education and health. 58 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 3: And then we defined the worst performers or the high 59 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 3: alert countries are the ones that are in the bottom 60 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 3: ten percent of the world across those rights, plus any 61 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 3: countries that have been reliably accused of genocide. And based 62 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 3: on that definition, there were four worst performing countries that 63 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 3: Kiwi Saber Funds are currently investing in and they are China, Israel, 64 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 3: Kata and Saudi Arabia. 65 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 2: How do bank managed funds compare to non bank funds 66 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: in terms of those investments in these high alert countries. 67 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 3: The banks are managing by far the majority of kysaber 68 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 3: and retail investment assets in New Zealand, so I think 69 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 3: in total they are managing two thirds of all investments 70 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 3: in New Zealand. And what we found is that they 71 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 3: are seventy five percent of the investments in the worst 72 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 3: performing countries are coming from the bank funds, so that's 73 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 3: slightly the bank funds are slightly more likely to invest 74 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 3: in the worst performing funds than the non bank funds. 75 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 3: This I should also mention this research was a snapshot 76 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 3: in time as of March twenty twenty four, and there 77 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 3: have been changes since and so when we're talking about 78 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:45,559 Speaker 3: bank funds, we included ben Z funds at that date, 79 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 3: but since since then Benz has sold those assets to 80 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 3: Harbor Asset Management, so we would get slightly different results now. 81 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 2: And so can people check what their can we savor 82 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 2: is going towards? 83 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 4: In the paper, we do look at what. 84 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 3: Was the case as of March twenty twenty four, but 85 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 3: we know that things will have changed since then. The 86 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 3: main point of this research was not to provide up 87 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 3: to date detail on individual KVSAP funds. There was more 88 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 3: to point out the fact that there is no system 89 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 3: that allows individual people to get that up to date information. 90 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 3: So we're calling for industry bodies like the Responsible Investment 91 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 3: Association of Australasia and other organizations like Mindful Money, which 92 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 3: is a New Zealand charity, to. 93 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 4: Make it easier. 94 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 3: They're already kind of offering some certification programs and Mindful 95 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 3: Money have an excellent website where you can go and 96 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 3: look at your kiwisaver and see how it's investing in 97 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 3: companies that are, you know, for example, fossil fuel producers 98 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 3: or weapons manufacturers. But currently that information is not available 99 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 3: on which of each kiwisaver funder and to the extent, 100 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 3: which of it's investing in the best versus the worst countries. 101 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 3: So yeah, that's kind of the key point really that 102 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 3: we're trying to draw attention to the fact that this 103 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 3: missing information. Individuals can contact their key we saver provider 104 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 3: and ask for information about tell their provider that they 105 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 3: care about this, and even consider switching providers if their 106 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 3: current provider is not taking this issue seriously. 107 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 2: Is there any evidence of I suppose rights washing or 108 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 2: is even misleading ethical labeling among these retail funds. 109 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 3: No, I wouldn't say we found any direct evidence of that. 110 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 3: But what we did find is that the existing certifications 111 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 3: that are available are not currently set up to evaluate 112 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 3: this particular asset. 113 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 4: Class of investments. 114 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 3: So for example, and you know, and I want to 115 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 3: emphasize also that this field of responsible investment is very 116 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 3: much emerging. Ten or twenty years ago, you know, the 117 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 3: sort of certifications that we have now didn't even exist. 118 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 3: So I like to think that it's going to continue 119 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 3: to move in the right direction in the is to come. 120 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 3: But for example, we found that sixty seven percent of 121 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 3: the lending to the worst performing countries was coming from 122 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 3: funds that have a rare certification. So that's some kind 123 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 3: of responsible investment certification from the Responsible Investment Association Australasia. 124 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 3: And now that's I wouldn't call that rights washing because 125 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 3: what RIA say is that they're really just telling you 126 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 3: whether what the fund is claiming is actually true to label. 127 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 3: And generally what they're doing is they might be telling 128 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 3: you that a fund's climate related claims, for example, are valid. 129 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 3: It's just not telling you anything at all about how 130 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 3: much of the fund might be being lent to governments 131 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 3: with very poor human rights record. 132 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 5: The typical thing for funds is that they want to 133 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 5: make money, so they tend to chase short term returns, 134 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 5: and often those short term returns are in companies that 135 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 5: do things that are pretty terrible. And we survey the 136 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 5: public each year to find out what people want to avoid, 137 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 5: and they want to avoid things like weapons, but also 138 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 5: human rights violations, animal cruelty, fossil fuels, and social harm 139 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 5: like tobacco and gambling. 140 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 4: And so on. 141 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: So what needs to be done? What are the next steps? 142 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: Because the public has changed the tide, so to speak. 143 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:40,439 Speaker 2: Before you mentioned the weapons manufacturing, everyone was up in 144 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 2: arms about their can we saver retirement investments going into 145 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 2: things like weapons or. 146 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: Drugs or war in general? So we've done it before, 147 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 1: how can we do it again? 148 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 4: Yeah? 149 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 3: Absolutely. Each individual has quite a lot of power in 150 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 3: terms of where they direct their chemisab balances, and even 151 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 3: if their balances are relatively small, if they talk to 152 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 3: their friends and family about it, it can really. 153 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 4: Add up to quite a growing movement. 154 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 3: And it's definitely that desire by individual kiwis to be 155 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 3: investing more responsibly. That has led to a lot of 156 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 3: these shifts we've already seen, so in terms of I mean, 157 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 3: I would say there's just tons of opportunities here. 158 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:24,199 Speaker 4: And when we looked at the best. 159 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,079 Speaker 3: Performing countries, so we looked at which funds are invested 160 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 3: only in the best performing countries. 161 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 4: And you know, there are thirty five. 162 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 3: Countries in the world that are in that kind of 163 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 3: best performing category, and thirty one of them have really 164 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 3: significant and liquid bond markets, so they're very investable. But 165 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:44,839 Speaker 3: what we found is that there's not very not very 166 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 3: many funds out are investing exclusively in a diversified range 167 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 3: of those best performing countries. 168 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 4: So for the funds themselves. 169 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 3: I would say there's a huge opportunity for them to 170 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:00,839 Speaker 3: offer more access to investments in those best performing countries. 171 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 3: For industry bodies, I think there's a huge opportunity to 172 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 3: set up systems to consider human rights more consistently when 173 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 3: it comes to investing in government bonds. And then for 174 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,079 Speaker 3: individual people themselves, you know, the opportunity is to tell 175 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 3: their provider that they care and consider switching if their 176 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 3: provider doesn't care, and if they do, does. 177 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 1: Something like that need government intervention. 178 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 3: So New Zealand has good disclosure regulation, so funds are 179 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 3: required to disclose exactly which assets are invested in, and 180 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 3: it was because of that regulatory framework that we were 181 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,599 Speaker 3: able to do this research, which I would say is 182 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 3: quite groundbreaking globally because most other countries don't have a 183 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 3: data set that would allow this type of research to 184 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 3: be done. But yet there is more that can be 185 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 3: done in the sense that often what the responsible investment 186 00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 3: certifications focus on are the things that funds are required 187 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:04,719 Speaker 3: to do by under regulation. And so now there are 188 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 3: increasing climate related disclosures and so that has led the 189 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,839 Speaker 3: certification programs to focus on more climate related stuff. So 190 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 3: it is more regulation would be helpful, but I don't 191 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 3: think it's necessary. 192 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 2: So just to be clear, if I called up my 193 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 2: provider and said I want information about how my money 194 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 2: is being spent, how. 195 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: Easy or difficult is it for me to get that information? 196 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 4: It probably varies from provider to provider. 197 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 3: Right now, there's an excellent website that Mindful Money Operate, 198 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,079 Speaker 3: where you can put in the name of your kivsaver 199 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 3: and get all that information in terms of the company 200 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 3: shares that your kevsaver invested in. 201 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 4: It just hasn't yet been. 202 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 3: Expanded to also include information on the government bonds that 203 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 3: your key resaver is published in. So there's already platforms 204 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 3: that exist that could give you that answer, you know, 205 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 3: really easily without you even need are in needing to 206 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 3: call your provider, but they haven't yet included this segment 207 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 3: of the market, and so in the meantime you would 208 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 3: need to call your provider and. 209 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 4: Ask they should be able to answer your questions. 210 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: So did you that for you as researchers? 211 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 2: Did you have to ask individual each individual provider for 212 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 2: that information for that snapshot in time? 213 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 3: No, we got the data from all funds are required 214 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 3: to disclose their asset holdings in the disclosed Register of 215 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 3: the company's office, and that information is disclosed I think 216 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 3: every six months. 217 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 4: I might have that wrong. 218 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 3: That's a data set that can be downloaded, but it's 219 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 3: not very accessible to the individual person. So no, we 220 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 3: didn't need And there's I think seven hundred and something 221 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 3: kisov and retail investment funds that were included in that 222 00:12:58,000 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 3: data set. 223 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 2: How aware do you do you think New Zealanders are 224 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 2: generally about the human rights profile of their investments. 225 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 1: Do you think that they'll see this and be quite shocked? 226 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 3: Some of them probably will be. It's probably something that 227 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 3: a lot of people just haven't thought about before. We 228 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 3: do know from surveys of New Zealanders that human rights 229 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 3: is something that they care about in their investments, but 230 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 3: I think people often their attention falls on the human 231 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 3: rights practices of companies whose shares they own, So you know, 232 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 3: is this company complicit in any kind of major human 233 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,719 Speaker 3: rights violations in terms of their business operations, And there's 234 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 3: much less attention being given to the investments, what investments 235 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 3: are supporting in terms of loans to government through purchases 236 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 3: of selfign bonds. So yeah, I think it's probably just 237 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 3: something that hasn't been on the horizon. 238 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 2: And you mentioned that it's significantly easier here to get 239 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 2: this information rather than the country's of a sentase. 240 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:02,359 Speaker 1: Do you think that this research. 241 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 2: Will contribute to a global discussion about how ethical investments work. 242 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 4: Yeah? 243 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:11,079 Speaker 3: Absolutely, this is groundbreaking research, not just for New Zealand 244 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 3: but globally, because the sovereign bond asset class is being 245 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 3: systematically ignored globally by responsible and ethical investing. 246 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:22,239 Speaker 4: Not completely. 247 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 3: There are like individual ethical funds that take it very seriously, 248 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 3: but the majority of the investment market is largely ignoring 249 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 3: this issue. 250 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: Do you think it's well, we're moving in a positive direction. 251 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 2: I suppose when it comes to ethical investments, because it 252 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 2: was not that long ago when we were talking about 253 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 2: weapons manufacturing. 254 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 3: Look, it's an evolving field, and I would say over 255 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 3: the past couple of decades it has very much been 256 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 3: moving in a positive direction and I see no reason 257 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 3: why that won't continued. 258 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:55,479 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Ann Marie. 259 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 4: Thanks so much for having me pleasure. 260 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 261 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 262 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 2: at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 263 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 2: produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also 264 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 2: our editor. 265 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. 266 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 2: Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 267 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 268 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 2: behind the headlines.