1 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: Yota. 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is a summer special of 3 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 2: The Front Page, The Enzid Herald's daily news podcast. While 4 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 2: the Front Page is on summer break, we're taking a 5 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 2: look back at some of the biggest news stories and 6 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 2: top rated episodes from the podcast in twenty twenty four. 7 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: New episodes will. 8 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 3: Return on January thirteenth. Traveling is often a stressful experience, 9 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 3: particularly over the Christmas break and summer holidays, when it 10 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 3: seems we're all rushing to get away. Those trips aren't 11 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 3: made easy when violent turbulence or technical errors have an impact. 12 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 3: In twenty twenty four, stories of extreme turbulence popped up 13 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 3: around the world, including one case in April when a 14 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 3: man on board an Air New Zealand flow from Balley 15 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 3: broke his leg, while in May, a violent Singapore Airlines 16 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 3: flight saw dozens hospitalized and one passenger die. That's all 17 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 3: on top of multiple stories locally of domestic and international 18 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 3: flights impacted by landing and technical issues. To get insight 19 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 3: on this, in July, we spoke to the chief executive 20 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 3: of Massy University's School of Aviation, a shock Potoval, about 21 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 3: whether we should be concerned and stay tuned for advice 22 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 3: on what you can do if things go wrong for 23 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 3: you this summer from Consumer and. 24 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: Z's Jessica Walker. 25 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 3: Just to start with a shock, I understand you've got 26 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 3: over twelve thousand hours of airlines jet flying experience. 27 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: Is that right? 28 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 4: Oh? Yes, that would be correct, So. 29 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: You know what you're talking about when it comes to planes. 30 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 4: I would like to think so. 31 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: So a shock. 32 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 3: When we talk about turbulence, what do we referring to exactly? 33 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 4: Well, turbulence has simply put the movement of air created 34 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 4: by atmospheric pressure. You know things called jet streams flow 35 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 4: around mountains, thunderstorms, et cetera. To give you an analogy, 36 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 4: it's like a car is traveling at six hundred kilometers 37 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 4: per hour. If it hits a bumpy stretch of road, 38 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 4: you'll be jolted in the air. It's basically horizontal or 39 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 4: vertical changes in wind speed, which is called wind shear, 40 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 4: that happens when the aircraft is traveling through the air, 41 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 4: and that causes the turbulence. 42 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 3: Why do you think extreme turbulence is becoming more of 43 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 3: an issue now? I've seen some suggestions that climate change 44 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 3: is to blame. 45 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 4: Well, all I can said, the stage is that is 46 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 4: a theory that is being put forward, and the number 47 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 4: of incidents of turbulence in recent times have been more 48 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 4: in quick succession. Put it that way. Whether this is 49 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 4: going to be an ongoing trend or not remains to 50 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 4: be seen. But there is a study that you or 51 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 4: may may or may not seen by the University of 52 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 4: Reading where they have talked about the link between climate 53 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 4: change and turbulence and they're forecasting that turbulence incidents are 54 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 4: going to increase in future. They've done a study from 55 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 4: nineteen seventy nine onwards, I believe, and they're forecasting that 56 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 4: the increase due to basically a climate change is what 57 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 4: they're saying, there would be more incidents of turbulence. But 58 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 4: at the moment, I would say this could be a 59 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 4: cluster because you have things like cluster of events happening 60 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 4: random events, and that then creates a perception that there 61 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 4: is an increase in that particular type of event. 62 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 3: There's also been dozens of stories in recent weeks involving 63 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 3: planes departing New Zealand and then actually having to turn 64 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 3: around mid flight due to technical issues. What goes into 65 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 3: that decision making to turn a flight around. 66 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 4: Well, that entirely depends on the nature of the issue Chelsea, 67 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 4: because if it is an issue that would impact the 68 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 4: progress of the flight ongoing and it's not safe, then 69 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 4: the pilots would take a decision to come back. And 70 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 4: a lot of these decisions are also taken in conjunction 71 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 4: with the ground because most airlines have something called an 72 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 4: integrated Operations Control Center, and so they're constantly in touch 73 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 4: with the aircraft, so the nature of the problem is 74 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 4: communicated there, and then the pilots can make a decision 75 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 4: either to carry on or to divert to an alternate 76 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 4: air field, or to turn around and come back. So 77 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 4: it just depends on the circumstances. 78 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 3: And I suppose we can have solace in the fact 79 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 3: that if a flight does have to turn around, it 80 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 3: really does, doesn't I saw it just yesterday an Auckland 81 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 3: to China flight had to turn back after seven hours 82 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 3: of flying. Could you imagine being up in the air 83 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 3: for fourteen hours and ending up in the same place 84 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 3: where you left off from. But I can imagine that 85 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 3: there would have been some serious conversations and it would 86 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 3: have actually had to seriously turn back. 87 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 4: Hey, absolutely correct, that kind of a decision is not 88 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 4: made by one individual. They said, communicate the information that's 89 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 4: available the OPS control center, which has engineers, which has 90 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 4: operations people, you know, the whole range of the commercial 91 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 4: staff there, and then they make a considered decision. Something 92 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 4: like this are not made likely. Just now passengers are 93 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 4: not going to be very happy with that. 94 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 5: The Virgin Australia flight from Queenstown to Melbourne has been 95 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 5: diverted to in Vericago. 96 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 6: We have just received this video of the plane with 97 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 6: flames being seen coming from one of the engines. 98 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 5: It started out as a seemingly normal landing in christ Church, 99 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 5: but soon flight JQ two to five from Auckland slid 100 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 5: off the runway. 101 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 3: We've seen two problem flights at Invercargo Airport, of all places, 102 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 3: in the past month. One Melbourne bound flight from Queenstown 103 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 3: had to make an emergency landing after the engines seemed 104 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 3: to catch fire, while a domestic flight had to circle 105 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 3: the surrounding area for two hours after landing gear issues. 106 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:02,799 Speaker 3: In your experience as a pilot, how common technical issues 107 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 3: like this. 108 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 4: I have a background of mathematics, you know, the probability 109 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 4: of something happening is mathematically extremely low. There are about 110 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 4: roughly between ninety nine thousand to one hundred thousand flights 111 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 4: globally every day. With that volume of flights, if you 112 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 4: have a few odd incidents happening, I don't know if 113 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 4: they happen every day, percentage or probability of the currents 114 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 4: of such events is extremely rare. Now, the one about 115 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 4: the engine fire. You talked about. Engine fires are very rare, 116 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 4: so our aircraft fires, catastrophic failures are extremely rare. Just 117 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 4: a little bit of information for you if you're interested 118 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 4: that for an aircraft to be certified, the risk of 119 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 4: any catastrophic component failure, the components that are critical and 120 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 4: that would cause a catastrophic failure, the risk of that 121 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 4: has to be lower than one to ten to the 122 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 4: power of nine, one upon ten to the power of nine, 123 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 4: or ten to the power of minus nine. It has 124 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 4: to be lower than that. So basically what you're saying is, 125 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 4: if you've or ten dice and the chances of all 126 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 4: of them coming up with the same number, the probable 127 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 4: of a catastrophic failure has to be less than that. 128 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 3: Does the public have a right to panic in these situations? 129 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: And what would your advice be. 130 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 4: Okay, so let's look at what can be done about it. 131 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 4: One of the things that I always advocate is keeping 132 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 4: the seat bills on at all times when seated, even 133 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 4: if you're sleeping. Keep the seat bilts on, perhaps loosely, 134 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 4: but keep it on. And you may see that most 135 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 4: salelines have an announcement saying it's recommended that seat bills 136 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 4: should be kept on. I'm not sure if any measures 137 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 4: are going to be taken now, with increasing number of 138 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 4: turbulence incident possibilities, whether they will mandate that, because for 139 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 4: takeoff and landing it's mandated you have to have your 140 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 4: seat bilts on in the air during crews. Whether you 141 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 4: have to keep it on or not as a mandatory requirement, 142 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 4: I'm not sure, but there is conversations happening around that. 143 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 4: But keeping it on at all times except maybe you're 144 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 4: taking a stretching your legs or going to the toilet 145 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 4: is most important. That's one that's really the key thing 146 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 4: that a passenger can do when on flight to remain safe. 147 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 4: It's no different from bearing a seat bill when you're 148 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 4: in the car driving. 149 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,239 Speaker 3: Earlier this year we saw several incidents involving Boeing planes 150 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 3: are you concerned at all by what you're saying in 151 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 3: regards to Boeing. 152 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 4: Boeing has unfortunately had some issues around quality assurance, and 153 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 4: there's investigations going on in America. Federal Avition Administration has 154 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 4: started investigations. The Boeing chief executive has had to face 155 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 4: a Senate hearing a while ago about these issues. There 156 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 4: are thousands, hundreds of thousands of Boeing aircraft flying across 157 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 4: the world. So I don't see any immediate serious issue because, 158 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 4: once again the aviation industry, the moment anything is identified 159 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 4: that could be a significant risk, they've ground the entire fleet, 160 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 4: like you might have heard about the Boeing Max issues, 161 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 4: which happened when two AMX aircraft crashed some some years ago, 162 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 4: and then they grounded the whole Max fleet for about 163 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 4: two years before they could get it back up into 164 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 4: the air. So the safety structure scaffolding around airline operations 165 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 4: or aircraft operations is quite robust. 166 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 3: When we talk about quality assurance issues within Boeing and 167 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 3: that's being investigated. Is that like taking your analogy with 168 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 3: the dice. Have they not rolled that dice ten times? 169 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 4: I suppose not exactly, just that there were some vessel 170 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 4: blowers who talked about them taking some shortcuts, you know, 171 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,439 Speaker 4: where the commercial imperative overcomes the safety impertative, so to 172 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 4: Pase speak. So I'm not quite sure. I can't speak 173 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 4: for what kind of shortcuts, if any, because I can 174 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 4: only read what's in the news, because they talk about 175 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 4: going having cut some corners when they were manufacturing aircraft. 176 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 4: So that's really the issue. But I wouldn't say that 177 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,199 Speaker 4: it's anything around when I talked about rolling the dice, 178 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 4: because those are what you call critical components which would 179 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 4: cause an aircraft to crash if they were not quality 180 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 4: issued appropertly. 181 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 3: In terms of these events, how much of it is 182 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 3: technological challenges and how much of it is actually in 183 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 3: the hands of the pilot? 184 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: Sully comes to mind for me. Is there a balance there? 185 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,319 Speaker 4: There is? Aircraft are very highly automated, So what's happening 186 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 4: these days is the role of the pilot is changing 187 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 4: from basic stick and rudder. If you go back fifty years, 188 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 4: when it was all about your capability to practically handle 189 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 4: the aircraft physically, it's changed from that into actually managing 190 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:21,319 Speaker 4: the automation to achieve a safe outcome. So, yes, the 191 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 4: role of the pilot is changing. Automation has made it 192 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 4: very much safer. There are there are many types of 193 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 4: accidents that used to happen in the past that have 194 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 4: been significantly reduced. For example, flight into terrain. We have 195 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 4: terrain avoidance warning systems that's stopped a lot of terrain 196 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 4: related accidents where people are descended into terrain without knowing 197 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 4: that it was there in bad weather for example. Then 198 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,719 Speaker 4: there's the what's called the traffic advisory systems that they 199 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 4: have on aircraft where it actually tells you when there's 200 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 4: another aircraft closing or within within a particular range. It 201 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 4: gives you a warning. And now the automated systems will 202 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 4: actually take over and take aways of action as needed. 203 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 4: So there are various technological advancements that have made huge 204 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 4: improvements in safety, and the pilots have to learn how 205 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,079 Speaker 4: to manage that automation and also trust the automation and 206 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 4: make decisions which are based on the circumstance of the time. So, yes, 207 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 4: the role is changing, but it's a combination of both. 208 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:20,719 Speaker 4: The automation is a huge help for pilots. 209 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us. 210 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 6: A shock. 211 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 3: When we board a plane, we all expect to get 212 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 3: to our destination in one piece, not end up in 213 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 3: a different country or even back where we started. But 214 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 3: what are your rights as a passenger when things do 215 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 3: go wrong? We're joined now by Consumer and z Ed's 216 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:54,199 Speaker 3: Jessica Walker. Let's start with turbulence. Jessica, if you get 217 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 3: injured mid flight, what can you actually do about it? 218 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: From a consumer point of view. 219 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 6: The turbulence is a really interesting and this isn't something 220 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 6: that our members have complained to us about as yet, 221 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 6: so we don't have advice ready to go. But you know, 222 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 6: generally speaking, when something happens that is outside the airline's control, 223 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 6: so something like turbulence, you know, looking at what happened 224 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 6: with the recent extreme event, I believe it was the 225 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 6: Singapore Airlines or it's between Singapore and Auckland flight. The 226 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 6: airline seemed to handle that really well. So that'll be 227 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 6: your first part of call would be to go to 228 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 6: the airline, ask for us this sense and see what 229 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 6: they can do to help you out. We've been reading 230 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 6: that this is something that is expected to be increasing 231 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 6: in coming years, and so it's something that consumers do 232 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 6: need to be aware of when they're bucking flights. I 233 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 6: know from my experience in the office that people who 234 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 6: are already nervous travelers, it's giving them something else to 235 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 6: worry about. But it's really important that you have a 236 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 6: conversation with the airline if anything like that is to happen, 237 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 6: because that will be your best part of call. 238 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 3: It's probably more common that your flight might end up 239 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 3: in the wrong destination hey, or actually back where it's 240 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 3: started in some cases. 241 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: What can you do in this situation? 242 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 3: Is that something you can take up with the airline 243 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 3: or get a refund, or what can you do. 244 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:04,719 Speaker 6: So again, that would be something that's clustered outside the 245 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 6: airlines control because you know they couldn't have foreseen that happening. 246 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 6: Or you know, if there's an extreme weather event which 247 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 6: results in turbulence, then they're doing what they can to 248 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 6: keep you safe. And so it's not, for example, like 249 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 6: a maintenance issue with an aeroplane, which means that either 250 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 6: your flight's delayed or canceled or you end up in 251 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 6: the wrong city. In those circumstances, you've got really clear rights. 252 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 6: And so in an example where there is an extreme 253 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 6: event like turbulence and the airline has done all it 254 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 6: can to protect you, but gets you to the safest 255 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,199 Speaker 6: point of disembarking if you like, then the rules it 256 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 6: would be different. 257 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 3: When we talk about things that are in the airlines control, 258 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 3: what kind of things are those. 259 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 6: So that's things like maintenance. So if there's a problem 260 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 6: with the airplane, which means it can't take off, if 261 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 6: it's something like staff sickness, which happened and awful like 262 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 6: this time two years ago, we were calling it Airmageddon 263 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 6: in the office, and that was because so many flights 264 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 6: were being canceled because of staff shortages due to a 265 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 6: COVID wave. 266 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 5: In New Zealand says it's cutting its flight schedule over 267 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 5: the next six months. There's the airline experiences the highest 268 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 5: level and crew sicknesses, and over a decade, around one 269 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 5: hundred thousand passengers will have your flights canceled or rescheduled, 270 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 5: which has raised concerns about the rights of consumers. 271 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 6: So all those things, the things that theoretically are within 272 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 6: the control of the airline, things that are outside of 273 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 6: the control of the airline are things that wouldn't really 274 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 6: come as a surprise to you. So and the COVID 275 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 6: restrictions were in place and flights were grounded, we knew 276 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 6: what the rules were, and so it was no surprise 277 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 6: to any of us that certain flights weren't taking off. 278 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 6: Or if there is really extreme weather, you know, for example, 279 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 6: you look at the window and it's really thick fog, 280 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 6: then it's not going to be a surprise to you 281 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 6: that the airline decides to cancel or delay a flight 282 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 6: and that is for safety issues, but that is something 283 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 6: that they couldn't have foreseen. And so in those instances 284 00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 6: we were classed as outside the airlines control. And so 285 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 6: you're right, are quite different. 286 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 3: What are your rights when say your flight is canceled 287 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 3: due to something within the airline's control. 288 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 6: So if it's a domestic flight and the cancelation is 289 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 6: for reasons within the airlines control, the first thing we 290 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 6: would always urge impacted passengers to do is to find 291 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 6: out what the reason for the cancelation or delay is. 292 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 6: Because we are hearing that this is getting better, that 293 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 6: communications from airlines is improving, and that's something we've pushed 294 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 6: them really hard on. But it used to be they 295 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 6: weren't always upfront about the reason for the cancelation or delay, 296 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 6: which put you in a really tricky situation as a 297 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 6: consumer to know what your rights were. But if the 298 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 6: airline is clear with you that So the example I 299 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 6: gave before, you know a maintenance issue which means that 300 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 6: the flight is unavailable the planes unavailable, then in that 301 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 6: instance you are entitled to reimbursement up to ten times 302 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 6: the cost of the ticket or the cost of the delay, 303 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 6: whichever is lower. So the cost of delay could be 304 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 6: things like a new flight, perhaps accommodation if there isn't 305 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 6: a flight available until the next day to meals so 306 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 6: you know, you shouldn't be in a worse off position 307 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 6: just because the flight didn't take off. See, you need 308 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 6: to keep hold of all of your receipts and then 309 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 6: submit those to the airline and put your claim in. 310 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 6: You'd find that both the airlines jets down in their 311 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 6: New Zealand would say that claims have to be reasonable. 312 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 6: So what that means is, you know, you couldn't go 313 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 6: and buck into a five star hotel that's five hundred 314 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 6: dollars a night and expect to get that reinburst. For 315 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 6: one reason, it's because there is a cap of ten 316 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 6: times the cost of the ticket, but also they would 317 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 6: say that that's not really fair. However, if the only 318 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 6: accommodation that is available is that price, and it does 319 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 6: come within the lower end of the limit. It's not 320 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 6: your fault, is it. So I think the thing to 321 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 6: bear in mind is that you shouldn't be out of 322 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 6: pocket because of a delay or cancelation that is within 323 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 6: the airlines control. 324 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: And other things you can ask for as well. 325 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 3: You mentioned meals, but also perhaps could you get a change. 326 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: Of clothes, toothbrush, toothpaste, things like that. 327 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, I guess it would depend on the situation, 328 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 6: because it is all about what's reasonable. So, you know, 329 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 6: so you're traveling and your somewhere long and expected to 330 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 6: be so it might be that you need, you know, 331 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 6: something to sleep in and a clean pair of bunders 332 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 6: for the next day in a tooth bridge, you know, 333 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 6: so that they would be reasonable things that you could 334 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 6: claim for. But you couldn't go out and buy a 335 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 6: whole new wardrobe. So it's just about being reasonable. Otherwise 336 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 6: the airline is likely to decline your request. 337 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 3: Is that the same with international flights as well, or 338 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 3: is it slightly different. 339 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 6: International flights is different because it depends who you are 340 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 6: flying with, where you're flying to and from. Say, for example, 341 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 6: if you are, whether European airline or departing from a 342 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 6: European airline, you've got great protections. So it's definitely worth 343 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 6: heading to our website or doing a Google just to 344 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 6: see what your rights are if you are impacted by 345 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 6: an international delay or cancelation, because it really is quite 346 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 6: different for different jurisdictions. So the States have got different rules, 347 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 6: Australia has different rules. So the advice that I'm giving 348 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 6: now relates to domestic airlines, but most times you will 349 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 6: have some really pretty good protections. So it really pays 350 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 6: to not necessarily just take what the international airline is 351 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 6: telling you was gospel. You know from my own experience, 352 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 6: I've had to pretty hard in the past with British airways. 353 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 6: My in laws have done the same, and it works. 354 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 6: If you know you're right, you're in a really powerful position. 355 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 3: I guess a lot of people may be quite surprised 356 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 3: on what they actually can claim. 357 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 6: I think that's right, and that's one of the reasons 358 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 6: that we launched a campaign a couple of years ago. 359 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 6: We called it our Flight Rights Campaign, and that's because 360 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 6: we were getting no end of members and people that 361 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 6: were aware of us getting in touch to say they 362 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 6: were surprised that the flight was delayed or canceled and 363 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 6: all of a sudden, they're incurring all these fees. And 364 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 6: what we found was that people didn't understand their rights 365 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 6: because the airlines weren't being upfront and you know, worst 366 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 6: case scenario. We found that some people were actually being 367 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 6: misled and we didn't think that was fair, and that 368 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 6: could have been that they just weren't being told their rights. 369 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 6: But also there were some airlines telling people that they 370 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 6: could claim up to a set feel of I think 371 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 6: it was one hundred and fifty dollars a night for 372 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 6: accommodation and thirty dollars for a meal. But our argument 373 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 6: was that's not fair because that's not actually in the 374 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 6: Civil Aviation Act, that's not written down anywhere. And so 375 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 6: of course any reimbursement claims should be reasonable, but people 376 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 6: shouldn't be out of pocket. And so we think it's 377 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 6: really important that people do familiarize themselves with their rights. 378 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 6: And as they say, we are hearing anecdotally that the 379 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 6: moment there has been a florry of cancelations and it 380 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 6: does seem that our New Zealand and this instance have 381 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 6: been really good and upfront about the reason for the cancelation, 382 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 6: but it's definitely worth doing a quick Google head to 383 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 6: our campaign page just to find out what your rights 384 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 6: are so that you can make sure you're not being 385 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 6: shortchanged if you fail to take off. 386 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us, Jessica. That's it for this episode 387 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 3: of The Front Page. You can read more about today's 388 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 3: stories and extensive news coverage at enzed Herald dot co 389 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 3: dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Siles 390 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 3: with sound engineer Paddy Fox. 391 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. 392 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 3: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 393 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 3: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 394 00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 3: behind the headlines.