1 00:00:06,667 --> 00:00:10,427 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Fine 2 00:00:10,707 --> 00:00:11,987 Speaker 1: from Newstalks EDB. 3 00:00:13,107 --> 00:00:15,787 Speaker 2: News TALKSB and Weekend Sport. New Zealand and Rugby is 4 00:00:15,787 --> 00:00:18,747 Speaker 2: in the throes of negotiating their next broadcast deal. It's 5 00:00:18,747 --> 00:00:22,227 Speaker 2: been reported SkyTV's offering eighty five million dollars a year 6 00:00:22,227 --> 00:00:25,027 Speaker 2: for the domestic rugby rights from twenty twenty six to 7 00:00:25,067 --> 00:00:27,787 Speaker 2: twenty thirty that includes all backs, tests and Super Rugby 8 00:00:27,827 --> 00:00:31,427 Speaker 2: Pacific matches, well below the existing one hundred and eleven 9 00:00:31,467 --> 00:00:34,227 Speaker 2: million dollar annual deal which expires at the end of 10 00:00:34,267 --> 00:00:37,267 Speaker 2: the year. That deal signed before the last Rugby World Cup. 11 00:00:37,267 --> 00:00:39,947 Speaker 2: In fact, before the twenty nineteen Rugby World Cup, when 12 00:00:40,027 --> 00:00:43,187 Speaker 2: Spark Sport was in the market and chasing broadcast rights 13 00:00:43,227 --> 00:00:45,867 Speaker 2: for live sport. That is, of course no longer the case. 14 00:00:46,227 --> 00:00:49,467 Speaker 2: Let's bring in Hamish mcclennan, former chair of Rugby Australia, 15 00:00:49,587 --> 00:00:54,347 Speaker 2: chairman of digital advertising company Area Group and ARN Australia, 16 00:00:54,747 --> 00:00:59,227 Speaker 2: hugely experienced media and marketing executive with an unrivaled understanding 17 00:00:59,227 --> 00:01:02,387 Speaker 2: of the changing media landscape as it relates to sport. Hamish, 18 00:01:02,427 --> 00:01:05,747 Speaker 2: thanksfull nis your expertise in general terms. First of all, 19 00:01:06,347 --> 00:01:10,547 Speaker 2: important broadcast deals for the overall health of a sports 20 00:01:10,667 --> 00:01:12,787 Speaker 2: organization like New Zealand rugby. 21 00:01:13,227 --> 00:01:15,467 Speaker 3: It's probably the central pillar in terms of how you 22 00:01:15,547 --> 00:01:20,627 Speaker 3: drive the game beyond pathways and grassroots, because that is 23 00:01:20,707 --> 00:01:23,267 Speaker 3: the platform in the vehicle which should promote the game. 24 00:01:23,467 --> 00:01:27,467 Speaker 3: And if I look at where Rugby and Australia stumbled, 25 00:01:27,987 --> 00:01:31,387 Speaker 3: they did an exclusive deal with a pace. 26 00:01:31,187 --> 00:01:34,107 Speaker 4: Av provider in Australia and. 27 00:01:34,787 --> 00:01:38,707 Speaker 3: For twenty years it was behind the paywall, and so 28 00:01:38,867 --> 00:01:42,387 Speaker 3: the challenge is you want some free to wear exposure 29 00:01:42,467 --> 00:01:45,107 Speaker 3: in my opinion, and if you look at the competitive 30 00:01:45,187 --> 00:01:49,347 Speaker 3: landscape here, the AFL and the NRL had probably forty 31 00:01:49,387 --> 00:01:56,147 Speaker 3: percent of their coverage on free towar and so participation awareness, 32 00:01:56,947 --> 00:02:01,907 Speaker 3: creating personalities out of the game really drove the popularity 33 00:02:01,947 --> 00:02:05,267 Speaker 3: of those sports, where rugby probably stuffered a little bit. 34 00:02:05,427 --> 00:02:08,507 Speaker 3: So it's something that New Zealand have to consider. 35 00:02:09,467 --> 00:02:11,747 Speaker 2: In fact, that is the key thrust I think to 36 00:02:11,747 --> 00:02:14,187 Speaker 2: the entire conversation is the free to wear part of 37 00:02:14,227 --> 00:02:16,627 Speaker 2: it because at the moment, as you know, very little 38 00:02:16,627 --> 00:02:19,147 Speaker 2: of any of the top rugby is free to wear 39 00:02:19,267 --> 00:02:22,947 Speaker 2: over here. How robust are those conversations when pay per 40 00:02:23,027 --> 00:02:26,347 Speaker 2: view broadcasters probably don't want any content available on free 41 00:02:26,347 --> 00:02:26,667 Speaker 2: to wear. 42 00:02:27,227 --> 00:02:29,387 Speaker 3: Well, New Zealand is a bit different to Australia, so 43 00:02:29,427 --> 00:02:31,987 Speaker 3: we have a law called the anti Startening law. So 44 00:02:32,787 --> 00:02:37,667 Speaker 3: premium tier one sports have to show certainly like our 45 00:02:37,747 --> 00:02:40,227 Speaker 3: tests are on free Aware, but the rest. 46 00:02:40,107 --> 00:02:41,467 Speaker 5: Can sit behind a paywall. 47 00:02:42,267 --> 00:02:45,667 Speaker 3: So for New Zealand, you know, do you take the 48 00:02:45,747 --> 00:02:50,347 Speaker 3: money or do you try and ensure that you reach 49 00:02:50,427 --> 00:02:55,187 Speaker 3: the maximumount of views? Now aeropian New Zealand is different 50 00:02:55,187 --> 00:03:00,227 Speaker 3: because it is these sports where Australia has probably you know, 51 00:03:00,267 --> 00:03:04,267 Speaker 3: Sydney has the most competitive winter sports market in the 52 00:03:04,267 --> 00:03:08,347 Speaker 3: world if you include soccer. So I personally think some 53 00:03:08,427 --> 00:03:11,827 Speaker 3: free toware exposure is important. But you know you're faced 54 00:03:11,867 --> 00:03:14,667 Speaker 3: with with n that are you know you've got you've 55 00:03:14,667 --> 00:03:16,987 Speaker 3: got to fund the organization. Plus they brought a private 56 00:03:17,027 --> 00:03:20,907 Speaker 3: equity a very credible private equity firm, Silver Ake in 57 00:03:21,427 --> 00:03:23,907 Speaker 3: as a part owner of the sport. Then they've probably 58 00:03:24,027 --> 00:03:27,707 Speaker 3: promised them an uplifting revenue and ultimately they want to 59 00:03:27,707 --> 00:03:28,947 Speaker 3: get a return on their capital. 60 00:03:29,867 --> 00:03:33,467 Speaker 2: So what then do you perceive those conversations around the 61 00:03:34,067 --> 00:03:36,827 Speaker 2: table to be like, because you're so right, I mean 62 00:03:36,867 --> 00:03:40,907 Speaker 2: they're not. Everybody has access to pay per view sport 63 00:03:41,187 --> 00:03:44,147 Speaker 2: and you know, many of us grew up, you know, 64 00:03:44,147 --> 00:03:46,467 Speaker 2: connecting with the sports we love by watching them on TV. 65 00:03:46,747 --> 00:03:49,387 Speaker 2: If that's not available to young people then then you know, 66 00:03:49,427 --> 00:03:51,427 Speaker 2: I'm not sure what the future looks like. What do 67 00:03:51,467 --> 00:03:54,587 Speaker 2: the conversations around that table generally look like? 68 00:03:55,387 --> 00:03:59,467 Speaker 3: Look, I think you know, private equity typically will work 69 00:03:59,547 --> 00:04:03,627 Speaker 3: to a five to ten year horizon, and the administrators 70 00:04:03,667 --> 00:04:05,187 Speaker 3: of Rugby and New Zealand. 71 00:04:04,867 --> 00:04:06,347 Speaker 4: Have to take a twenty year of you. 72 00:04:06,987 --> 00:04:09,947 Speaker 3: So the challenge for them is do they how do 73 00:04:10,027 --> 00:04:14,707 Speaker 3: they balance the two And the conundrum they've got is 74 00:04:14,747 --> 00:04:18,787 Speaker 3: that Sky is really the dominant platform in New Zealand 75 00:04:18,947 --> 00:04:22,027 Speaker 3: and with any media right negotiation you need to have 76 00:04:22,067 --> 00:04:26,627 Speaker 3: competitive tension. So in Australia, you know, we have you know, 77 00:04:26,827 --> 00:04:32,307 Speaker 3: more just because of our scale, more more media organizations 78 00:04:32,307 --> 00:04:32,867 Speaker 3: that can. 79 00:04:32,747 --> 00:04:34,627 Speaker 4: Test those sporting rights. 80 00:04:34,707 --> 00:04:38,227 Speaker 3: So if there's no competitive tensions to Sky, they'll try 81 00:04:38,267 --> 00:04:42,507 Speaker 3: and drive the price Dad. You know, you're blacks is 82 00:04:42,627 --> 00:04:45,707 Speaker 3: the and sort of Rugby is the premium sport on 83 00:04:45,747 --> 00:04:48,747 Speaker 3: that platform. But they've got a business to run and 84 00:04:49,027 --> 00:04:51,707 Speaker 3: a subscription TV around the world is under pressure because 85 00:04:51,747 --> 00:04:54,027 Speaker 3: you've got all the tech giants getting into streaming and 86 00:04:54,547 --> 00:04:57,347 Speaker 3: you might have heard that Foxtel in Australia just got 87 00:04:57,507 --> 00:05:03,107 Speaker 3: sold to an overseas streaming platform called Dasen or daznes. 88 00:05:03,267 --> 00:05:08,067 Speaker 3: So it's changing, it's changing rapidly. The issue is, can 89 00:05:08,107 --> 00:05:13,027 Speaker 3: Mark Robinson bring in a competitor like Dazen to provide 90 00:05:13,027 --> 00:05:15,867 Speaker 3: that tension to try and keep the value of the 91 00:05:15,947 --> 00:05:17,067 Speaker 3: rights up high. 92 00:05:17,267 --> 00:05:18,987 Speaker 2: You know, well, that's certainly what happened last time with 93 00:05:19,067 --> 00:05:22,227 Speaker 2: Spark Sport, the now defunct Spark Sport. They were chasing 94 00:05:22,427 --> 00:05:25,387 Speaker 2: you know, Live Sport rights got the twenty nineteen Rugby 95 00:05:25,387 --> 00:05:29,227 Speaker 2: World Cup and so there was a genuine, a genuine 96 00:05:29,347 --> 00:05:33,267 Speaker 2: competitive tension. When there is only one genuine bidder. How 97 00:05:33,347 --> 00:05:35,307 Speaker 2: much different do the negotiations become. 98 00:05:36,387 --> 00:05:38,667 Speaker 5: Oh, they're much more difficult. 99 00:05:38,907 --> 00:05:40,667 Speaker 4: There's actually no doubt about that. 100 00:05:40,867 --> 00:05:45,187 Speaker 3: So you know, you know, in blunt terms, if you've 101 00:05:45,227 --> 00:05:48,507 Speaker 3: got two or three competing for a property, you know 102 00:05:48,587 --> 00:05:52,907 Speaker 3: that's going to be a better big environment if there's 103 00:05:52,947 --> 00:05:56,227 Speaker 3: only one platform. You know, if you can save twenty 104 00:05:56,267 --> 00:05:59,187 Speaker 3: million on the value of the media rights in New 105 00:05:59,267 --> 00:06:01,107 Speaker 3: zeal And, that goes straight to your bottom line. 106 00:06:01,147 --> 00:06:02,427 Speaker 4: And if you're a CEO or a. 107 00:06:02,387 --> 00:06:05,387 Speaker 3: Board you know you've got shareholders, then you look good 108 00:06:05,427 --> 00:06:07,307 Speaker 3: if you can do it at your author don't want 109 00:06:07,307 --> 00:06:10,267 Speaker 3: to destroy the value of the game. And you know 110 00:06:10,347 --> 00:06:13,147 Speaker 3: what I was dealing with when I was at rugby 111 00:06:13,147 --> 00:06:16,187 Speaker 3: in Australia was you know, there are whole lot of 112 00:06:16,227 --> 00:06:18,507 Speaker 3: legacy issues and I don't want to sound defensive, but 113 00:06:18,547 --> 00:06:24,107 Speaker 3: as you as your revenue declines, and broadcast rights are 114 00:06:24,147 --> 00:06:26,187 Speaker 3: one of the few leavers that you can pull that 115 00:06:26,267 --> 00:06:29,987 Speaker 3: if you get it right, you can you can drive 116 00:06:30,067 --> 00:06:33,667 Speaker 3: it incredible value in terms of a when it's obviously money. 117 00:06:33,707 --> 00:06:36,867 Speaker 3: But then if your revenue is going south, then you've 118 00:06:36,907 --> 00:06:40,867 Speaker 3: got less to put into grassroots or pay the top players. 119 00:06:40,947 --> 00:06:44,067 Speaker 3: So so you know, over the decades we've lost in 120 00:06:44,107 --> 00:06:48,427 Speaker 3: Australia a lot of really good players overseas, and so 121 00:06:48,587 --> 00:06:51,507 Speaker 3: if you can't if you're competing against French and English 122 00:06:51,547 --> 00:06:55,267 Speaker 3: and Japanese clubs who paying top dollar and you don't 123 00:06:55,307 --> 00:06:57,387 Speaker 3: have that money in the kiddie, then it's going to 124 00:06:57,427 --> 00:06:58,307 Speaker 3: be very challenging. 125 00:06:58,907 --> 00:07:03,147 Speaker 2: Indeed, indeed, the streaming side of things, do you perceive 126 00:07:03,187 --> 00:07:06,187 Speaker 2: that that will be something that that happens more and 127 00:07:06,427 --> 00:07:08,867 Speaker 2: more in the short term or are we more likely 128 00:07:08,907 --> 00:07:11,747 Speaker 2: to see the likes of a traditional broadcast I like 129 00:07:11,787 --> 00:07:17,347 Speaker 2: Sky Sport continue to have the rights to rugby here, so. 130 00:07:18,667 --> 00:07:23,227 Speaker 3: You know, Facebook are waiting into various sports around the 131 00:07:23,267 --> 00:07:27,627 Speaker 3: world and you're going to it's very hard for the 132 00:07:27,667 --> 00:07:29,507 Speaker 3: traditional players. 133 00:07:28,987 --> 00:07:32,107 Speaker 4: To compete against the tech platforms because they've just got. 134 00:07:31,947 --> 00:07:36,107 Speaker 3: A completely different model. So it is it is challenging, 135 00:07:36,347 --> 00:07:39,827 Speaker 3: and perhaps that's one of the reasons why fox Tell 136 00:07:39,947 --> 00:07:45,587 Speaker 3: thought that they should consolidate with daesn't Overseays. 137 00:07:45,787 --> 00:07:48,347 Speaker 5: So in the short. 138 00:07:48,147 --> 00:07:51,507 Speaker 3: Term, I mean, obviously Sky will do everything to hang 139 00:07:51,547 --> 00:07:53,707 Speaker 3: on to those key sports. And then as the new 140 00:07:53,827 --> 00:07:57,867 Speaker 3: entrants come in, you know, the sporting coda ends that 141 00:07:58,067 --> 00:08:00,827 Speaker 3: I have to reconcile a new player coming in with 142 00:08:00,987 --> 00:08:02,507 Speaker 3: the audience that they can deliver. 143 00:08:02,787 --> 00:08:04,947 Speaker 5: So it's a bit of a Rubik's que. 144 00:08:05,147 --> 00:08:06,147 Speaker 4: It's always hard. 145 00:08:05,987 --> 00:08:10,987 Speaker 3: Because if you transition to another player, can they delive 146 00:08:11,067 --> 00:08:13,547 Speaker 3: you the same sort of numbers? Because what then sits 147 00:08:13,587 --> 00:08:16,467 Speaker 3: behind the numbers are the eyeballs, And. 148 00:08:16,347 --> 00:08:18,507 Speaker 4: You've got sponsors who are sort. 149 00:08:18,307 --> 00:08:20,187 Speaker 5: Of demanding and wanting growth. 150 00:08:19,907 --> 00:08:21,987 Speaker 3: And they want to know that they're hitting the maximum 151 00:08:22,027 --> 00:08:25,867 Speaker 3: amount of people and you've got as many viewers watching 152 00:08:25,947 --> 00:08:29,467 Speaker 3: the game so that the sport remains relevant Again, new 153 00:08:29,507 --> 00:08:32,467 Speaker 3: Zealand's different because it's not as competitive from a media 154 00:08:32,507 --> 00:08:35,467 Speaker 3: point of view, and rugby is the number one sport. 155 00:08:35,507 --> 00:08:37,107 Speaker 4: But there are all things that you've got to consider. 156 00:08:37,987 --> 00:08:41,147 Speaker 2: You mentioned the anti sophening legislation before in Australia. Does 157 00:08:41,187 --> 00:08:42,547 Speaker 2: that work well in your view? 158 00:08:44,187 --> 00:08:48,467 Speaker 3: So that's a great question, and it creates divided opinion, 159 00:08:48,707 --> 00:08:51,667 Speaker 3: and I think it's actually a good thing because it 160 00:08:51,747 --> 00:08:56,547 Speaker 3: sort of puts a ring fence around certain premium sports 161 00:08:56,587 --> 00:08:58,667 Speaker 3: so that it doesn't matter if you're rich or poor. 162 00:08:58,707 --> 00:09:00,187 Speaker 3: You can get it on free to wear, and our 163 00:09:00,307 --> 00:09:05,707 Speaker 3: free toware industry in Australia, as challenged as it is, 164 00:09:05,707 --> 00:09:09,427 Speaker 3: is incredibly high quality and so it just means that 165 00:09:10,187 --> 00:09:13,827 Speaker 3: if you can't afford a subscription to a PayTV service, 166 00:09:13,947 --> 00:09:17,587 Speaker 3: you get to watch premium sports, and that includes parts 167 00:09:17,627 --> 00:09:20,107 Speaker 3: of the Olympics and other big events. 168 00:09:19,827 --> 00:09:20,547 Speaker 5: Around the world. 169 00:09:20,627 --> 00:09:23,467 Speaker 3: So there are a lot of people who say to they, look, 170 00:09:23,707 --> 00:09:27,587 Speaker 3: you know, in a fully competitive environment, you should just 171 00:09:27,747 --> 00:09:30,987 Speaker 3: make it a free for all, and some sports like 172 00:09:31,027 --> 00:09:34,387 Speaker 3: it because they think they can drive the maximum dollar 173 00:09:34,507 --> 00:09:38,027 Speaker 3: value for the sport, and there is currency in that argument. 174 00:09:38,107 --> 00:09:40,827 Speaker 4: I don't deny it, but I'm of the view that I. 175 00:09:40,747 --> 00:09:45,827 Speaker 3: Think in some instances the antisasseny law is beneficial. 176 00:09:46,547 --> 00:09:49,147 Speaker 2: And can you see a time Hamish where New Zealand 177 00:09:49,227 --> 00:09:53,027 Speaker 2: rugby or any national rugby union takes their broadcasting in 178 00:09:53,187 --> 00:09:55,387 Speaker 2: house and sells direct to consumer. 179 00:09:56,147 --> 00:09:56,747 Speaker 4: Yeah. 180 00:09:56,787 --> 00:10:00,987 Speaker 3: Absolutely, So there are sports here like supercars, they eight 181 00:10:01,067 --> 00:10:04,147 Speaker 3: supercars that do it all in house, like the tennis 182 00:10:04,147 --> 00:10:08,667 Speaker 3: in Australia, producer and then they on sell the broadcast. 183 00:10:09,307 --> 00:10:12,507 Speaker 3: But if you look at the traditional word, the existing model, 184 00:10:12,827 --> 00:10:15,667 Speaker 3: it's pretty good for the sport because you know, if 185 00:10:15,707 --> 00:10:18,347 Speaker 3: you negotiate well and you get a good check size, 186 00:10:18,507 --> 00:10:22,387 Speaker 3: then they do all the production and so you know, 187 00:10:22,467 --> 00:10:27,107 Speaker 3: I think for some sports, you know, ones like rugby, 188 00:10:27,147 --> 00:10:29,507 Speaker 3: where you've got it being played all over the country, 189 00:10:29,547 --> 00:10:33,787 Speaker 3: you don't have to worry about the production side of it. 190 00:10:33,787 --> 00:10:36,187 Speaker 2: It's such a fascinating topic, cam As you've lent us 191 00:10:36,187 --> 00:10:38,827 Speaker 2: some great expertise, lots for our listeners to think about 192 00:10:38,867 --> 00:10:40,667 Speaker 2: and to chat about. Thank you so much for joining 193 00:10:40,707 --> 00:10:41,827 Speaker 2: us across New Zealand today. 194 00:10:42,507 --> 00:10:46,587 Speaker 1: Cheers, Thank you for more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine. 195 00:10:46,787 --> 00:10:50,387 Speaker 1: Listen live to news Talk ZB weekends from midday or 196 00:10:50,467 --> 00:10:52,427 Speaker 1: follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.