1 00:00:06,667 --> 00:00:10,467 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Sport Podcast with Jason Fine 2 00:00:10,707 --> 00:00:12,747 Speaker 1: from Newstalk zb for. 3 00:00:12,907 --> 00:00:15,507 Speaker 2: A regular feature on the show this year has been 4 00:00:15,547 --> 00:00:19,467 Speaker 2: the Wisdom of coaching guru Wayne Goldsmith, who's joined us 5 00:00:19,507 --> 00:00:23,387 Speaker 2: on various different matters around coaching at an elite or 6 00:00:23,427 --> 00:00:26,307 Speaker 2: grassroots level or anywhere in between. It joins us for 7 00:00:26,387 --> 00:00:28,827 Speaker 2: the final time this year. Wayne. I saw a post 8 00:00:28,867 --> 00:00:31,907 Speaker 2: from you on social media this week that I wanted 9 00:00:31,947 --> 00:00:35,347 Speaker 2: to drill down into and it was entitled why sporting 10 00:00:35,427 --> 00:00:39,707 Speaker 2: teams fail after a period of success? And you said 11 00:00:40,067 --> 00:00:43,587 Speaker 2: that seven words explain it, and those seven words are 12 00:00:44,187 --> 00:00:47,587 Speaker 2: that's the way we do it here. So why are 13 00:00:47,587 --> 00:00:51,027 Speaker 2: those words and that philosophy so dangerous? 14 00:00:52,547 --> 00:00:57,227 Speaker 3: Well, I think what those words convey is a lot 15 00:00:57,267 --> 00:01:00,907 Speaker 3: of different things. Party that it's saying, our way is 16 00:01:00,947 --> 00:01:04,267 Speaker 3: the only way, our way is the best way, our 17 00:01:04,307 --> 00:01:07,907 Speaker 3: way is the right way. And if you've been around 18 00:01:07,947 --> 00:01:11,107 Speaker 3: sport for a while, you know that that's true. But 19 00:01:11,307 --> 00:01:15,067 Speaker 3: for a very very short moment of time. And look, 20 00:01:15,307 --> 00:01:17,547 Speaker 3: I remember working with a coach of an Olympic gold 21 00:01:17,547 --> 00:01:20,787 Speaker 3: medalist in trek and field years ago and he said, 22 00:01:21,307 --> 00:01:24,147 Speaker 3: I said, how excited Philly excited about it? And he said, 23 00:01:24,187 --> 00:01:28,067 Speaker 3: I am, but I'm just thinking about all the coaches 24 00:01:28,267 --> 00:01:32,147 Speaker 3: and our competitors around the world who are looking and going, 25 00:01:32,627 --> 00:01:33,627 Speaker 3: how do we beat her? 26 00:01:34,107 --> 00:01:37,067 Speaker 4: And it was this reality that even though at that 27 00:01:37,187 --> 00:01:39,667 Speaker 4: moment she was the Olympic gold medalist and the best 28 00:01:39,707 --> 00:01:42,827 Speaker 4: of the best, the reality is everybody has now seen 29 00:01:42,907 --> 00:01:45,507 Speaker 4: that and gone, ah, that's how you've done it. 30 00:01:45,907 --> 00:01:47,707 Speaker 3: I'm going to do it better. I'm going to learn 31 00:01:47,747 --> 00:01:51,267 Speaker 3: from you and improve. Whereas if you say, oh, that's 32 00:01:51,307 --> 00:01:53,707 Speaker 3: the way we do it here, your brain, your mind, 33 00:01:53,787 --> 00:02:00,507 Speaker 3: your imagination, creativity, innovation stops because you're convinced that you've 34 00:02:00,547 --> 00:02:02,907 Speaker 3: got it and for whever I shall, it be the case. 35 00:02:03,027 --> 00:02:04,067 Speaker 3: And it's just not right. 36 00:02:04,787 --> 00:02:07,507 Speaker 2: Another saying you hear a lot, not just in sport. 37 00:02:07,907 --> 00:02:11,107 Speaker 2: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Is their merit 38 00:02:11,387 --> 00:02:13,907 Speaker 2: to that? If what you're doing is getting you success, 39 00:02:14,267 --> 00:02:17,267 Speaker 2: then is their merit in not changing it too much? 40 00:02:18,427 --> 00:02:20,707 Speaker 3: Well? Look, I always go back to who are the 41 00:02:20,787 --> 00:02:25,187 Speaker 3: brands in our life that have been sustainably successful for 42 00:02:25,227 --> 00:02:27,667 Speaker 3: a long long time? So you look at something like Apple, 43 00:02:28,067 --> 00:02:31,027 Speaker 3: or you look at BMW, or you look at the 44 00:02:31,067 --> 00:02:34,347 Speaker 3: brands that have grown have been sustainably successful over a long, 45 00:02:34,387 --> 00:02:37,187 Speaker 3: long period of time. Now we know at the moment 46 00:02:37,547 --> 00:02:39,467 Speaker 3: if you go into an Apple Shop, which to me 47 00:02:39,627 --> 00:02:43,427 Speaker 3: is just in insanely full on place where you're getting 48 00:02:43,467 --> 00:02:45,227 Speaker 3: exposed to all sorts of ideas. But you go on 49 00:02:45,267 --> 00:02:46,947 Speaker 3: an Apple Shop and we're not sponsored by Apple, by 50 00:02:46,947 --> 00:02:47,747 Speaker 3: the way, are we find it? 51 00:02:47,747 --> 00:02:48,147 Speaker 2: No, we're not. 52 00:02:48,227 --> 00:02:52,147 Speaker 3: But you know, we go into a shop at Apple Shop, 53 00:02:52,507 --> 00:02:58,307 Speaker 3: and they're going to tell you that this model of phone, 54 00:02:58,387 --> 00:03:01,827 Speaker 3: this model of tablet, this model of technology is the 55 00:03:01,867 --> 00:03:04,827 Speaker 3: best and it can't get any better, and this is 56 00:03:04,867 --> 00:03:08,027 Speaker 3: the latest in technology and the greatest thing that's ever happened. 57 00:03:08,507 --> 00:03:14,267 Speaker 3: Yet we know that they're already made, designed and built 58 00:03:14,507 --> 00:03:17,547 Speaker 3: next year's one, and we know that they've built and designed, 59 00:03:17,587 --> 00:03:20,467 Speaker 3: pretty much finished the one for twenty twenty six, and 60 00:03:20,507 --> 00:03:24,987 Speaker 3: they've probably got the twenty thirty model on the planning 61 00:03:24,987 --> 00:03:26,947 Speaker 3: platform and ready to go as well, and each one 62 00:03:26,987 --> 00:03:29,507 Speaker 3: of those will be better. So we know that the 63 00:03:29,547 --> 00:03:34,507 Speaker 3: brands in our broader life that have been sustainably successful 64 00:03:34,507 --> 00:03:38,667 Speaker 3: are constantly reinventing. Now, having said that, if we stick 65 00:03:38,707 --> 00:03:42,867 Speaker 3: with that Apple nihalogy, that they don't change the size 66 00:03:42,947 --> 00:03:48,067 Speaker 3: of the phone much and they don't change the shape 67 00:03:48,107 --> 00:03:51,307 Speaker 3: of the phone much. They keep the things that they 68 00:03:51,387 --> 00:03:54,907 Speaker 3: know work, but then they go, but where can we 69 00:03:54,947 --> 00:03:58,027 Speaker 3: find an edge? So fast, a process, that raw, bigger, 70 00:03:58,067 --> 00:04:01,547 Speaker 3: process that raw better camera. So they look at the 71 00:04:01,587 --> 00:04:04,427 Speaker 3: things that they know work, and then they go, yeah, 72 00:04:04,427 --> 00:04:07,787 Speaker 3: but we can still be better. That continue improvement mindset. 73 00:04:08,187 --> 00:04:12,507 Speaker 3: The teams that get that sustain success. The teams and 74 00:04:12,547 --> 00:04:15,707 Speaker 3: the organizations who don't, who believe in that's the way 75 00:04:15,747 --> 00:04:18,947 Speaker 3: we do it here, their success is fleeting, are quite 76 00:04:18,947 --> 00:04:20,787 Speaker 3: often almost accidental or lucky. 77 00:04:21,827 --> 00:04:24,987 Speaker 2: Do you find that that teams and coaches who have 78 00:04:25,067 --> 00:04:28,707 Speaker 2: been successful are more likely to be the ones who 79 00:04:28,747 --> 00:04:32,187 Speaker 2: seek to change things up to seek that improvement or 80 00:04:32,747 --> 00:04:35,347 Speaker 2: because you know, I would imagine there would be a 81 00:04:35,347 --> 00:04:38,427 Speaker 2: certain degree of resistance among a playing group who say 82 00:04:38,427 --> 00:04:40,067 Speaker 2: to their coach, Look, you've been telling us what to do. 83 00:04:40,147 --> 00:04:42,747 Speaker 2: We've done that, we're winning games. Now you're telling us 84 00:04:42,787 --> 00:04:45,707 Speaker 2: to do another thing or a slightly different thing. Is 85 00:04:45,747 --> 00:04:49,787 Speaker 2: there resistance in any way among players in situations like this? 86 00:04:51,707 --> 00:04:55,027 Speaker 3: There can be, And it's because the way that you 87 00:04:55,107 --> 00:04:58,307 Speaker 3: talk to the playgroup. If you say, the playgroup, it's 88 00:04:58,507 --> 00:05:00,467 Speaker 3: all about the grand Final. We have to win the 89 00:05:00,507 --> 00:05:02,147 Speaker 3: Grand Final. We're going to be at our best at 90 00:05:02,147 --> 00:05:07,067 Speaker 3: the and everything's based around the achievement of success at 91 00:05:07,067 --> 00:05:10,547 Speaker 3: a singular point in time, where you've spent all that 92 00:05:10,747 --> 00:05:14,227 Speaker 3: time convincing them that their model, their system, their structure, 93 00:05:14,307 --> 00:05:17,107 Speaker 3: their play is the best way and forever shall it 94 00:05:17,227 --> 00:05:19,907 Speaker 3: be the case? Then for them come back the next 95 00:05:19,947 --> 00:05:21,507 Speaker 3: year and say, hey, guys, guess what we're going to 96 00:05:21,627 --> 00:05:24,507 Speaker 3: change it all that can be really confronting. If you 97 00:05:24,707 --> 00:05:28,107 Speaker 3: listen to the words of the really switched on coaches, 98 00:05:28,147 --> 00:05:29,947 Speaker 3: the ones that have been around for a while, They 99 00:05:29,947 --> 00:05:33,227 Speaker 3: talk about things like it's a journey. Every moment is 100 00:05:33,267 --> 00:05:36,307 Speaker 3: an opportunity for us to learn. We're continuing to learn 101 00:05:36,627 --> 00:05:39,187 Speaker 3: and progress and improve as a player group. And you 102 00:05:39,307 --> 00:05:42,347 Speaker 3: even heard it with the great the Crusaders teams with 103 00:05:43,147 --> 00:05:47,867 Speaker 3: the Penrith Panthers, they very rarely talk about we're gonna 104 00:05:47,867 --> 00:05:49,987 Speaker 3: get to the Grand Final and win it and Bubba, 105 00:05:50,067 --> 00:05:52,547 Speaker 3: it's it's not a those finite terms. It's all about 106 00:05:52,747 --> 00:05:55,747 Speaker 3: every game we've learned, we've improved as a group. We're 107 00:05:55,787 --> 00:05:58,627 Speaker 3: getting better. I don't think we've realized our potential yet. 108 00:05:58,787 --> 00:06:00,867 Speaker 3: If you've been around for a while, you tend not 109 00:06:00,987 --> 00:06:04,267 Speaker 3: to speak in absolutes or finalities. You tend to talk 110 00:06:04,307 --> 00:06:09,187 Speaker 3: in the terms of continuous improvement, ongoing learning, being the 111 00:06:09,227 --> 00:06:11,467 Speaker 3: best I can be, but I can always get better. 112 00:06:11,827 --> 00:06:15,147 Speaker 3: You tend to stick to those terms if you've been 113 00:06:15,187 --> 00:06:17,947 Speaker 3: around for a while. If you're just selling them once 114 00:06:19,187 --> 00:06:24,107 Speaker 3: win and forget it, then you're almost painting what the 115 00:06:24,147 --> 00:06:25,187 Speaker 3: future is going to look like. 116 00:06:25,667 --> 00:06:28,827 Speaker 2: There are some coaches who are tremendously successful over a 117 00:06:28,867 --> 00:06:31,667 Speaker 2: sustained period of time, and then they start to be 118 00:06:31,827 --> 00:06:34,387 Speaker 2: less successful, and people start to talk a little bit 119 00:06:34,387 --> 00:06:38,107 Speaker 2: about those coaches. The game has moved on. He's yesterday's man. 120 00:06:38,667 --> 00:06:41,867 Speaker 2: You know, the game has passed him by. Now are 121 00:06:41,867 --> 00:06:45,067 Speaker 2: there some coaches who just are either unable or unwilling 122 00:06:45,147 --> 00:06:48,067 Speaker 2: to make the change when it's needed. 123 00:06:49,787 --> 00:06:52,627 Speaker 3: It's a wonderful question by you, as you know, I 124 00:06:52,667 --> 00:06:54,787 Speaker 3: love swimming and I've been in it for a long 125 00:06:54,907 --> 00:07:01,627 Speaker 3: long time, and the coaches involved, they're wonderful. They getting 126 00:07:01,707 --> 00:07:03,987 Speaker 3: up early, They're given their life to it. You're going 127 00:07:04,027 --> 00:07:07,147 Speaker 3: to add the same people like gymnastics coaches, coaches and 128 00:07:07,187 --> 00:07:09,707 Speaker 3: distance running coaches, and you know, there's a lot of 129 00:07:09,787 --> 00:07:12,907 Speaker 3: coaches getting up early and given everything they've got to 130 00:07:12,987 --> 00:07:16,587 Speaker 3: the sport. However, when I go around the world, the 131 00:07:16,747 --> 00:07:21,747 Speaker 3: default model of delivering something like swimming is coaches standing 132 00:07:21,787 --> 00:07:24,347 Speaker 3: at at the pearl yelling numbers to kids. Now, that 133 00:07:24,667 --> 00:07:27,427 Speaker 3: was a reasonably successful model for a large period of time, 134 00:07:27,627 --> 00:07:31,227 Speaker 3: but we're dealing with kids now who are TikTokers. They 135 00:07:31,307 --> 00:07:34,747 Speaker 3: want short pieces of information, They want to be engaged, 136 00:07:34,747 --> 00:07:36,867 Speaker 3: they want to be listened to, they want to work 137 00:07:36,907 --> 00:07:39,787 Speaker 3: with you, they want to feel part of the process. 138 00:07:40,347 --> 00:07:43,907 Speaker 3: And I say to the coaches, look, even though your 139 00:07:43,987 --> 00:07:46,147 Speaker 3: model may have worked, and you may have even put 140 00:07:46,187 --> 00:07:48,347 Speaker 3: someone on an Olympic team or even won a medal, 141 00:07:48,667 --> 00:07:52,907 Speaker 3: we're dealing with a society that's evolved so quickly. The 142 00:07:53,067 --> 00:07:56,987 Speaker 3: learning has become so different. The way the kids engage 143 00:07:57,027 --> 00:07:59,507 Speaker 3: with learning and want to be engaged with their teachers 144 00:07:59,507 --> 00:08:02,987 Speaker 3: and their parents and their peers has changed. So, if 145 00:08:03,027 --> 00:08:05,827 Speaker 3: you're a smart coach, you're staying true to the things 146 00:08:05,867 --> 00:08:10,507 Speaker 3: that you blare believe hard work, dedication, commitment, passion, all 147 00:08:10,547 --> 00:08:14,347 Speaker 3: those things, but you're shaping it and remodeling it and 148 00:08:14,387 --> 00:08:17,267 Speaker 3: delivering it and packaging it in a way that's appropriate 149 00:08:17,587 --> 00:08:22,907 Speaker 3: for the generations that we're dealing with now. The common 150 00:08:22,907 --> 00:08:26,907 Speaker 3: thing I hear from coaches is, oh, there's something wrong 151 00:08:26,947 --> 00:08:29,467 Speaker 3: with the kids, and the kids are not doing it 152 00:08:29,547 --> 00:08:31,347 Speaker 3: the way that we used to do it, and the 153 00:08:31,427 --> 00:08:34,227 Speaker 3: kids have got it wrong. It's their parents that have 154 00:08:34,267 --> 00:08:36,587 Speaker 3: got so many things on and we've got a soft society. 155 00:08:36,867 --> 00:08:39,867 Speaker 3: No no, no, no, no, you're yelling into a fan 156 00:08:39,987 --> 00:08:44,587 Speaker 3: in a breeze. You've got to say, well, I can't 157 00:08:44,667 --> 00:08:47,587 Speaker 3: change the children of the world. I can't change parenting 158 00:08:47,627 --> 00:08:51,147 Speaker 3: in New Zealand. I can't change the way people engage 159 00:08:51,187 --> 00:08:56,747 Speaker 3: with technology. I can only change myself and I as 160 00:08:56,747 --> 00:08:58,547 Speaker 3: a coach. I'm not going to change my belief in 161 00:08:58,587 --> 00:09:01,667 Speaker 3: hard work and commitment dedication. But I'm going to change 162 00:09:01,707 --> 00:09:05,187 Speaker 3: the things that will allow me to remain successful, which 163 00:09:05,267 --> 00:09:09,667 Speaker 3: is aging with kids, engaging athletes in a way that 164 00:09:09,747 --> 00:09:12,627 Speaker 3: they want to be engaged with now. And look, I 165 00:09:12,667 --> 00:09:15,187 Speaker 3: know this coach is listening at the moment, Pinty going no, 166 00:09:15,347 --> 00:09:17,147 Speaker 3: he doesn't get it. You know that's not like that 167 00:09:17,187 --> 00:09:21,147 Speaker 3: for tennis or rowing or I promise you guys, I 168 00:09:21,227 --> 00:09:23,947 Speaker 3: really do get this. This is what I live day 169 00:09:23,987 --> 00:09:26,787 Speaker 3: to day, and my will stay true to the things 170 00:09:26,787 --> 00:09:30,667 Speaker 3: that you know work, but be smart enough and intelligent 171 00:09:30,747 --> 00:09:34,267 Speaker 3: enough to tweak and change and improve and enhance the 172 00:09:34,307 --> 00:09:38,347 Speaker 3: things that will allow you to sustain your success. But 173 00:09:38,427 --> 00:09:40,107 Speaker 3: I would even think you'd be a look at Bellamy 174 00:09:40,227 --> 00:09:43,707 Speaker 3: and Ben are two great examples in NRL. I guarantee 175 00:09:43,787 --> 00:09:45,907 Speaker 3: there's things that they do that haven't changed since the 176 00:09:45,987 --> 00:09:51,867 Speaker 3: nineteen seventies, guarantee. But I also guarantee they've made five 177 00:09:52,067 --> 00:09:56,307 Speaker 3: ten percent change every year since of the things that 178 00:09:56,347 --> 00:09:59,107 Speaker 3: they know will allow them to sustain sucist. So I 179 00:09:59,147 --> 00:10:01,707 Speaker 3: guarantee when Bennett went into this great line Bennett says, 180 00:10:01,747 --> 00:10:04,267 Speaker 3: which is what you take into coaching is what you 181 00:10:04,387 --> 00:10:08,387 Speaker 3: take out. So I'm guarantee he would believe in those 182 00:10:08,547 --> 00:10:13,427 Speaker 3: core values what's important. His coaching philosophies would not have changed, 183 00:10:13,947 --> 00:10:15,787 Speaker 3: but he would have changed the things that would have 184 00:10:15,787 --> 00:10:19,307 Speaker 3: allowed him to continue to be successful. And that's the 185 00:10:19,347 --> 00:10:22,227 Speaker 3: real art of coaching or success in anything. 186 00:10:22,947 --> 00:10:25,907 Speaker 2: Incredible wisdom and brilliant advice from you as always, Wayne, 187 00:10:25,947 --> 00:10:27,987 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for today and for all your 188 00:10:28,027 --> 00:10:31,027 Speaker 2: contributions to Weekend Sport across the year. I hope you 189 00:10:31,027 --> 00:10:33,547 Speaker 2: have a lovely, lovely break over the next little while, 190 00:10:33,627 --> 00:10:36,267 Speaker 2: and well I hope that we can chat again when 191 00:10:36,307 --> 00:10:37,787 Speaker 2: twenty twenty five rolls around. 192 00:10:39,187 --> 00:10:41,747 Speaker 3: Mate. The greatest Christmas present I could want for would 193 00:10:41,747 --> 00:10:43,227 Speaker 3: get more time with you next year. 194 00:10:44,707 --> 00:10:48,347 Speaker 2: Okay, well that's quite a low bar, Wayne, but we'll 195 00:10:48,347 --> 00:10:50,947 Speaker 2: see if we can make it, make it happen. Thanks again, 196 00:10:50,987 --> 00:10:53,867 Speaker 2: my friend Wayne Goldsmith, part of Weekend Sport across the 197 00:10:53,907 --> 00:10:56,307 Speaker 2: year and does it to be again next year. You 198 00:10:56,347 --> 00:10:58,947 Speaker 2: can find out more about Wayne on his website WG 199 00:10:59,147 --> 00:11:01,147 Speaker 2: coaching dot com. 200 00:11:01,867 --> 00:11:05,027 Speaker 1: For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fain, listen live 201 00:11:05,147 --> 00:11:08,427 Speaker 1: to News Talk zed B weekends from midday or follow 202 00:11:08,467 --> 00:11:10,067 Speaker 1: the podcast on iHeartRadio