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Speaker 1: It's good.

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Speaker 2: As the nineteenth of August and the year of Our

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Speaker 2: Lord twenty twenty four. Welcome all you bespoke, you donkey

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Speaker 2: is to the Daily Bespoke Podcast. We've got a GISs

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Speaker 2: on the pod today, Steve Brunius, Yes, author of The

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Speaker 2: Survivors and the Throst of Death in Dispiration.

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Speaker 3: And here you come to look at that. He's coming

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Speaker 3: out there.

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Speaker 2: He is now Steve Bronius.

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Speaker 3: As we as we as, I love and breathe.

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Speaker 2: Matt and Steve just having a hug.

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Speaker 3: Steve just shaking Jerry's hand.

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Speaker 2: Hello, mate, I'm r. We're recording as live right now. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: we've got this new initiative on the met in Jury

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Speaker 2: podcast where we just we leave it all out there

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Speaker 2: the introduction. It's sort of.

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Speaker 3: Deconstructionalized, showing the workings we like to show. We like

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Speaker 3: to show the workings.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Steve Brawny is you are taking time away from

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Speaker 4: the Polkinghorn trial, the trial of the century. I measine

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Speaker 4: it must be hard to drag yourself away from that

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Speaker 4: this morning to come in here and have a chat

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Speaker 4: to us.

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Speaker 1: I'm not dragging myself. Hey, there's no court today.

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Speaker 2: See that's why you booked today, boy, that that trial

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Speaker 2: has been a sensation, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it has is exactly the halfway mark, or could

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Speaker 1: be more. And I'm already kind of dreading the day

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Speaker 1: when it's when it's over. Actually, yeah, it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: a trial for the ages.

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Speaker 2: It's it certainly is. And there seems to be layers

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Speaker 2: and layers to that. As you peel the layers of

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Speaker 2: the onion off, there's more and more. It's a bit

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Speaker 2: rotten at the court, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: Well, the core, of course, is you know, a tragic death.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And we sometimes forget that, don't we when we

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Speaker 2: celebrate the who's we I sometimes forget that when I'm

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Speaker 2: celebrating the salacious details.

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Speaker 1: I think you've defined the way I'm writing about the case.

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Speaker 1: I am trying to sort of catch up with myself

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Speaker 1: all the time and remind myself that at the core

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Speaker 1: of it, a woman is dead and we don't know

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Speaker 1: whether it was by her own hand or her husband's,

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Speaker 1: and that's for the jury to decide. And yeah, they've

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Speaker 1: got they've been been, you know, they've hurt a lot,

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Speaker 1: they've heard a hell of a lot, and yeah, much

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Speaker 1: more to go. Of course, there's one more week officially

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Speaker 1: of the prosecution case, and heaven knows who they're going

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Speaker 1: to call this week.

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Speaker 4: Where is the lover from Australia, the Sydney based lover

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Speaker 4: who he was then in a situation Philip Pongingham was

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Speaker 4: in in a situation twenty days after his wife had

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Speaker 4: either been murdered or had taken her own life.

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Speaker 3: As you said, he's.

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Speaker 4: Down at Mount Cook enjoying a weekend away with her.

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Speaker 3: Where's she? Because I thought she was going to be

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Speaker 3: called by the prosecution.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the Mount Cook, the Mount Cook Lodge and the

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Speaker 1: Marta Ricki Room. Yes, yeah, just sort of an update

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Speaker 1: on the Lenn Brown.

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Speaker 2: And the Nutty Fattala Roo room, isn't it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Great rooms of New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: Why always Now you're saying that the Survivor's Book is

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Speaker 2: the last of your trilogy. Maybe that could be your

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Speaker 2: next book. Room Trust, Trust Rooms, Rooms with great trusts

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Speaker 2: in them.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know it's been talking about that that book.

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Speaker 1: The sort of central thesis of this book anyway is

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Speaker 1: undone crime writing.

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Speaker 2: I thought that because I went to your book launch

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Speaker 2: for this and that was sort of that was sort

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Speaker 2: of the theme of the whole launch with all the speeches.

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Speaker 2: I'm out, I've done it. I want to move on.

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Speaker 2: And now you've sort of in the most high profile

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Speaker 2: your name is everywhere around this trial. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think around three days after the book launched, the

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Speaker 1: Folking Trials, they dragged me back in. Well, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it is an extraordinary case and and apropos, these these

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Speaker 1: sort of grand claims I made for The Survivors being

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Speaker 1: the last book of my crime writing is that, you know,

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Speaker 1: the reason I didn't want to do anymore. One of

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Speaker 1: the reasons I didn't want to do anymore is that

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Speaker 1: I was becoming I was feeling really very remote from

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Speaker 1: the people being accused of terrible crimes and very often

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Speaker 1: were in fact, did perpetrate those terrible crimes.

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Speaker 2: You know, I.

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Speaker 1: Couldn't relate to them, and I couldn't I couldn't really

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Speaker 1: relate to their families, and I was feeling as though

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Speaker 1: I didn't really belong to this social scene. You know,

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Speaker 1: I didn't understand the language. It was the kind of

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Speaker 1: a language of for example, extreme poverty, extreme myth amphetamine use,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, it was very very bleak, and I wasn't

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Speaker 1: living their lives and I had never lived those lives,

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Speaker 1: and while as a journalist or any kind of writer,

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Speaker 1: your job is to sort of enter into those wills

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Speaker 1: with empathy and some kind of degree of human understanding,

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Speaker 1: it kind of just got too much and I didn't

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Speaker 1: feel as though I could sincerely continue this, however, disagwayed.

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Speaker 1: Although I'm not Vadovi's living in Rebuera as wealthy as

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Speaker 1: doctor Philip John polking Horn, I can much more easily

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Speaker 1: relate to the right. This is why mischief. He's being

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Speaker 1: canceled on an extreme scale by the prosecution for his

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Speaker 1: his private life, which is not private at all, obviously

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Speaker 1: so incredibly public. And yeah, doctors, lawyers, you know, we

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Speaker 1: hear about Polkinghorn. You know, got the Orcan's best events,

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Speaker 1: best divorced lawyer before Pauline was died, and all these

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Speaker 1: kinds of things. And I can relate to all of that,

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Speaker 1: And you know, and I think this is one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons that's touching such an emotional chord with people

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Speaker 1: around the country and why people are transfixed to it.

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Speaker 1: They can relate to it. This is not the fulthy few,

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Speaker 1: This is the ruling class. This is people who we

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Speaker 1: recogniz eyes and yeah, you know, Polkinghorn made a you know,

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Speaker 1: quite a contribution to society. You know, he was an

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Speaker 1: expert in he was the last ditch when you were

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Speaker 1: losing your sight, but he worked on the back of

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Speaker 1: the eye. And there's a lot to admire about him.

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Speaker 1: He's very funny person. He's very good sense of humor.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's sort of I probably shouldn't go too

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Speaker 1: much into it, but you know, I have the odd

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Speaker 1: chat with him during the trial, and yeah, he's funny.

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Speaker 4: There's always a desire though, don't you think, Steve, that

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Speaker 4: people always want to think that the high are somehow

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Speaker 4: as well operating something else behind closed doors. Like there's

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Speaker 4: another more devious part to these people. So when all

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Speaker 4: of a sudden, someone like Philip Polkinghorn, who has seen

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Speaker 4: to have succeeded, he seemed to be very, very wealthy,

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Speaker 4: all of a sudden it turns out that he's living

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Speaker 4: this insane set life and it turns out as an

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Speaker 4: absolute demon for the methamphetamine. Like he just he really

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Speaker 4: is a he loves the methamphetamine.

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Speaker 1: We love the hypocrisy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's love that It's alute part of it. I

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Speaker 3: think that's a big there's a big drive there.

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Speaker 1: Just a small point here. It hasn't been proved that

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Speaker 1: the methamphetamine was his and that he himself was hitting

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Speaker 1: the glass barbage, small point about point.

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Speaker 2: I think that is possibly relevant.

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Speaker 3: But just back to that case. Back to that just quickly.

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Speaker 4: I do find it on you. I've been following the

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Speaker 4: trial very close. I've been reading all of your all

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Speaker 4: of your articles on it, and I do find it

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Speaker 4: very interesting that a guy who, let's just say he

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Speaker 4: did that, he did stage the suicide, that it would

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Speaker 4: be a very interesting move to then call the police

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Speaker 4: and leave thirty seven grams of methamphetamine around the house,

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Speaker 4: because clearly the police are going to have a look

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Speaker 4: around your house. Like that's a big oversight.

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Speaker 1: That is a hell of a lot, isn't it. And

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Speaker 1: I mean almost to contradict myself that the trial began

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Speaker 1: with them pleading guilty to position of myth and the

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Speaker 1: before didn't he he only.

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Speaker 4: Did that days before the trial, the morning of the trial,

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Speaker 4: the morning of the trial.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's how it began. Yeah, how do you

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Speaker 1: believe for meth and guilty? Anyway, let's go rout to

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Speaker 1: the murder. Yeah, KD of thing. So, yeah, the we

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Speaker 1: love a double life. Yeah, we double life. It's going

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Speaker 1: back to Darren McDonald. It's going back to Plumbley Walker,

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Speaker 1: which is the real sort of antecedent of this case,

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Speaker 1: is it not?

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Speaker 2: Do you think?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 3: I think so.

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Speaker 2: We did a four part everything but Hooker Falls. We

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Speaker 2: did a four part investigation to Peter Pumley Walker, four

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Speaker 2: part crime podcast on Peter Pumley Walker. Earlier this year.

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Speaker 2: We went that went, we went, we went deep. I

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Speaker 2: think there's only men stew Grieves know more about the case. Now.

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Speaker 4: We went to rot to Mahana Terrace, we looked at

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Speaker 4: the very place and we went deep. Is it partly

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Speaker 4: with the double life? Is it partly because we're all

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Speaker 4: secretly living double lives? Yes?

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Speaker 1: I think it is.

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Speaker 4: We are like all of us are.

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Speaker 2: Really.

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Speaker 1: I think that goes to the fascination with many, many,

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Speaker 1: many murder trials. Anyway, it's that kind of there but

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Speaker 1: for the not grace of God, but there but for

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Speaker 1: my sense of reason and my sense of calm, I

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Speaker 1: did not lash out. It doesn't take very long to

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Speaker 1: kill someone, Yes, But I.

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Speaker 2: Always think it's interesting when it comes to things like

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Speaker 2: people's sexual activities and stuff. Yes, we kind of act

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Speaker 2: like it's all on the same. If someone's doing something

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Speaker 2: that's illegal or wrong here, then they're capable of something else.

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Speaker 2: And I'm always not sure if the link is as

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Speaker 2: clear as people say. I mean, you could be a

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Speaker 2: massive sexual deviant but not a murderer, you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean?

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Speaker 1: Like, you're can you can you expand on this? I'm

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Speaker 1: liking where you're going.

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Speaker 2: Well, well, just going with it? Where am I going

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Speaker 2: with it? Well, I'm just saying that there are two

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Speaker 2: different things. Like there's the idea that you pull back

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Speaker 2: the layers of someone life and you prove that they

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Speaker 2: weren't what they said they were, and that's enough for

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Speaker 2: people to go, oh, this person is just a person

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Speaker 2: of terrible moral character. But you can you could be

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Speaker 2: a person of terrible morals in some area, but not

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Speaker 2: be a murderer. You know that, it's not like you

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Speaker 2: just get you get all the sins at once and

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Speaker 2: all the you know, it's not a blanket. One doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean the other.

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Speaker 4: No, But I'd also argue something else, which is if

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Speaker 4: you were every single person, if you really went and

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Speaker 4: if their sex life was really exposed, and every detail

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Speaker 4: of your sex life, for your whole life, The worst

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Speaker 4: moments of your sex life, for the most sorted, were public.

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Speaker 4: How many people would put up their hand and say, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I'm happy to have all of the things that I've

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Speaker 4: done about it.

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Speaker 1: Would be over? Would would be so over?

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Speaker 2: You know what?

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Speaker 4: Naturally slightly you know, sort.

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Speaker 1: Of What are the fascinating sort of hypocrisies of the

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Speaker 1: trial itself is that, you know, the Crown begin with

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Speaker 1: this terrific opening address, laying it all out, and then

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Speaker 1: they say, well, good, this is not a court of morals. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's much a life, all know, it's a live.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, a total court of morals because what is.

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Speaker 1: All the sex with polkinghorn apropos? You know what, what

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Speaker 1: does it buy into that he was such a dirty,

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Speaker 1: frotting dog. What does it buy into? What is the

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Speaker 1: relevance to the murder charge?

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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, and.

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Speaker 1: You know the Crown are drawing a bow and the

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Speaker 1: defense are saying this is a terrible distraction. And indeed,

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Speaker 1: I think Ron Mansfield Casey, his defense lawyer, said in

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Speaker 1: his opening address, they have turned my client's life upside down.

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Speaker 1: And if you accept that, you know it is kind

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Speaker 1: of horrifying to think. God, you know, if the defense

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Speaker 1: is true what they're claiming is true about Pauline, then

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Speaker 1: the s guy wakes up, finds his wife's ye and

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Speaker 1: his terrible, scandalous, rutting life is then revealed for for

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Speaker 1: no really good reason.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's quite possible that you can have a

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Speaker 2: terrible second life of being a sexual all these things

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Speaker 2: they said about him and still really love your wife

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Speaker 2: at home. That's not that has not that is not

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Speaker 2: something that doesn't happen.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, indeed, that that's that's a central sort of

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Speaker 1: plank of the defense. That's right. He's talking that they

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Speaker 1: had an open marriage. They were both aware of everything

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Speaker 1: that was going on, and that's certainly contestable.

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Speaker 2: But even now, even if he's innocent, he's already paying

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Speaker 2: a huge price that you that you can't come back from.

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Speaker 2: You can't. There's there's no to this around you know.

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Speaker 1: Well, you got a wonder, you know, where do you

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Speaker 1: go to after this? You know?

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Speaker 3: Me in this Australia and his family is involved if

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Speaker 3: he's found. If he's found, not goeat Australia.

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Speaker 2: I mean Christmas fur Christmas with the kids is kind

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Speaker 2: of weird after that, isn't it?

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Speaker 4: Can we take a break and come back in a

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Speaker 4: moment with we'll all share the worst sexual thing that

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Speaker 4: we've ever done.

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Speaker 1: In our life.

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Speaker 3: Welcome.

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Speaker 2: That's funny.

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Speaker 3: I was thinking.

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Speaker 2: I was thinking of the break before we share the

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Speaker 2: worst sexual things we've all done. I was thinking about it,

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Speaker 2: and I thought about this long time, like why murder mysteries?

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Speaker 2: You know, you know, I guess the Christie novels they

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Speaker 2: are also sitting mentions for wealthy people. And and one

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Speaker 2: of your other books, The Scene of the Crime, you

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Speaker 2: kind of point out that a lot of the scenes

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Speaker 2: of murder in New Zealand are so I'm not sure

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Speaker 2: exactly how you.

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Speaker 3: Describe it, but suburban. It's suburban.

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Speaker 2: It's it's no glamour, there's no it's it's well one

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Speaker 2: of them was, you know, in one book, your house

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Speaker 2: featured in one of suburban.

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Speaker 1: Dixon.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it is interesting that that we have one

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Speaker 2: that is yeah, we found out, Agatha Christie.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because even when you scratch the.

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Speaker 2: Service of Peter Plumbey Walker, it is as grim and

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Speaker 2: and lowly. I always thought that twenty eight a Mahna

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Speaker 2: Terrace was a dungeon, like like they went downstairs and

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Speaker 2: it was a stone dungeon and there was all that

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Speaker 2: part of it. You find out it's just a two

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Speaker 2: bedroom unit.

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Speaker 3: It's a unit. It's a duplex, a duplex. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: so it's just and it was just a room.

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Speaker 2: They've just nailed a couple of like things to the wall,

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Speaker 2: the most half assed B and D dungeon univer.

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Speaker 3: And it was not an upstanding He was not some

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Speaker 3: toisy toysy fancy guy. He was driving a you know,

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Speaker 3: a Ford Falcon. No it was it was it was

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Speaker 3: a it was Aina.

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Speaker 2: Courteena Corteina station wagon, a gold Quarte. And he was

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Speaker 2: living in a unit as well in Herne Bay. But

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Speaker 2: it was just a one bedroom unit. But we elevated

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Speaker 2: him to the level of and he wasn't really it

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00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,360
Speaker 2: wasn't an international umpire. He was just someone that went

300
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Speaker 2: down to the domain at a club cricket. But we

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00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,240
Speaker 2: elevated Peter Palmley Walker because of the mustache. We put

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Speaker 2: him up on the level of the highest of the

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Speaker 2: English aristocrates aristocracy. And we added, in my mind anyway,

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Speaker 2: this this this deep sort of eyes wide shut sexual

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Speaker 2: underbelly of New Zealand. But all of it was really

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Speaker 2: low rent.

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Speaker 1: Right who had suddenly been disrosed perch Ben. In fact,

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Speaker 1: he was not doctor Polkinghorn driving a white merk with

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Speaker 1: the Garish lincense plate Retina.

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Speaker 2: What a cooling card.

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Speaker 1: I mean. We heard early on on the trial about

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Speaker 1: how he would go to an apartment building in North

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Speaker 1: kit called lyrically enough, Melrose Court, which instantly makes you

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Speaker 1: think of Melrose Place, and it was very much like that.

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Speaker 1: There was a swimming pool in the middle of lush vegetation,

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Speaker 1: and he was going every Friday to meet a sex worker.

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Speaker 1: And of course everyone in the apartment building knew that

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Speaker 1: this woman worked in that trade. And there's Polkinghorn pulling

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Speaker 1: up every Friday and his white merk with retina. So

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Speaker 1: it's not exactly discreet, is it. You know, this is

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Speaker 1: not this is not hidden. Yeah, But speaking of settings,

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Speaker 1: you know with the polking Horn home, which is not

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Speaker 1: that the Plumbly Walker one bedroom unit in Herne Bay.

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Speaker 1: It was extraordinary that I've never done this, I've never

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Speaker 1: experienced this before in all my years of court reporting.

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Speaker 1: There was a scene visit, never been on a scene visit,

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Speaker 1: and we all got taken. The jury got taken in

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Speaker 1: a little mini van Pacific Pacific Vans. Bit of advertising

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Speaker 1: there for them and the media. The judge came up

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Speaker 1: and a clapped out Toyota only in New Zealand with

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Speaker 1: with the CODs, no photos as we step out of

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Speaker 1: our vehicles skirts already. What was that the judge's actual

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00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,680
Speaker 1: car was it clapped out tweeta may have been court property,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, maybe he was trying to make a statement

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00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:21,359
Speaker 1: kind of underwhelming.

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Speaker 2: And do you know, because you know in the OJ trial,

337
00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:27,480
Speaker 2: Johnny cockran famously before the court for the jury visit,

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Speaker 2: took down all the pictures that were on the wall

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Speaker 2: and replaced them with more sort of morally and also

340
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Speaker 2: to push the race issue, so there was more things

341
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Speaker 2: out of Africa and there was less bikini shots on

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Speaker 2: his wall, so that they redid the whole house to

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Speaker 2: fit the narrative that they were they were trying to

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Speaker 2: put across of OJ.

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Speaker 3: So, I mean, do you know, do you know that

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Speaker 3: the scene was as it was a.

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Speaker 1: Year There were crime scene photographs which we've been showing

348
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Speaker 1: time and time again, and so when we went on

349
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Speaker 1: the scene visit, the media were lead through the front door,

350
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Speaker 1: which I thought was very fair. Yeah, a little stand

351
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,560
Speaker 1: there fools peering in which of course we all did,

352
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:14,399
Speaker 1: and nothing much seemed to have changed. We identified the

353
00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:19,600
Speaker 1: same awful artwork on the walls that were there at

354
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Speaker 1: the crime scene.

355
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Speaker 3: Found guilty of bad taste.

356
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well, you know, there's a strong whiff of

357
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,960
Speaker 1: the nouveau here there there.

358
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Speaker 2: You're walking around with retina, then you're.

359
00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:33,159
Speaker 1: It's not classic.

360
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,679
Speaker 4: There's also something about the Aqui Basin. I grew up

361
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,400
Speaker 4: around that area and there's something about the basin which.

362
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Speaker 3: Will tell me it's always I mean I smoked some of.

363
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,399
Speaker 4: My first cigarettes down there in the Qi Basin as

364
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,399
Speaker 4: a as a twelve year old Windfield So it's not

365
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,879
Speaker 4: blues they were, So it's.

366
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:52,600
Speaker 2: No stranger to crime.

367
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Speaker 1: Then the main streets of Upland Road.

368
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:59,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's and that my one of my best friends

369
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:03,400
Speaker 4: lived and dal Av which is just just doubt. In fact,

370
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:05,400
Speaker 4: you could hit You could throw a cricket ball from

371
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:07,800
Speaker 4: his house to this place in an Upland Road.

372
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,000
Speaker 3: I know that house and.

373
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:13,760
Speaker 4: There have been a number of crimes that have been

374
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,480
Speaker 4: committed in around there. I mean his next neighbors involved

375
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:18,720
Speaker 4: in something there was something that happened across the road,

376
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,119
Speaker 4: and then now there's something that's just across the road

377
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,640
Speaker 4: and down a little bit there on Upland Road. There's

378
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Speaker 4: something about that little bit of.

379
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,000
Speaker 2: How far is it from Mahana Terrace?

380
00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:35,160
Speaker 4: It's oh quite, it's about two case from Maha Harris

381
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:36,399
Speaker 4: if you just kind of go over up and right,

382
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,920
Speaker 4: it's not far, but it's it was quite a big.

383
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:40,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a huge, isn't it.

384
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,879
Speaker 3: But there's something about that. There's something about that area.

385
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,840
Speaker 1: This is a kind of a Bermuda triangle of the

386
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,719
Speaker 1: very rich. It's not that it was you get sucked

387
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,720
Speaker 1: into mayhem, chaos, sudden acts of violence.

388
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's it's just a part of it's kind

389
00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:58,920
Speaker 4: of in the deep dark kind of recess. It's like

390
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,879
Speaker 4: in the Army were almost that little zone through that,

391
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 4: I mean Lucian Road, which is not very far. Some

392
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,119
Speaker 4: beautiful properties there look out yeah over Odicky Basin very flash.

393
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,480
Speaker 4: But even there's something about that little part of it.

394
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:11,440
Speaker 3: I don't know what it is.

395
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,400
Speaker 1: It feels it's a bit of a no man's land,

396
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,240
Speaker 1: isn't You don't know which suburb you are exactly in,

397
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,159
Speaker 1: but can I ask you the sort of chronology of

398
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 1: crime that you're thinking of back in that area? Didn't

399
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:32,879
Speaker 1: anything resemble the central accusation against Pulkinghorn that he killed

400
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 1: his wife? And then, I mean, this is more extraordinary, really,

401
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,479
Speaker 1: isn't it than a murder. It's simple to murder someone,

402
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,119
Speaker 1: and it's easy and quick to murder someone. But what

403
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:50,200
Speaker 1: the police allege what happened next? That's the extraordinary thing,

404
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:54,159
Speaker 1: isn't it. You're rushing around the house, fussing around with rope,

405
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,600
Speaker 1: with belts, with chairs, and yet you don't think to

406
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 1: get rid of thirty sevens grabs of myth.

407
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,400
Speaker 3: I just find that but very unusual.

408
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,479
Speaker 1: Does that go towards? Does that go towards innocence? Did

409
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 1: he have?

410
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,480
Speaker 4: Well that I think it goes towards potential innocence. But

411
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,680
Speaker 4: I know that looking at that police interview that he

412
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,879
Speaker 4: that he did. When I watched that police interview with Polkinghorn,

413
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 4: that was a man who I mean, from my own perspective,

414
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:27,399
Speaker 4: from my own point of view, that was a man

415
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,960
Speaker 4: who had was suffering the effects of methamphetamine. I mean

416
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,440
Speaker 4: it looked garbled, really striving.

417
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,959
Speaker 2: You don't necessarily make the greatest decisions if you are

418
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:39,880
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know, if.

419
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 4: You don't, if you haven't slept for days, you haven't slept,

420
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 4: and you know, yeah, famously you make terrible decisions. Maybe

421
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,679
Speaker 4: there was more methamphetamine in the house. Maybe he did

422
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 4: get rid of it. I mean, who knows, But there

423
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:53,440
Speaker 4: might have been a whole lot more. And that was

424
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,719
Speaker 4: the bits that he couldn't remember, because that's the other

425
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,239
Speaker 4: thing from and more experience of mine with friends who

426
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,120
Speaker 4: have been addicted to metham fiatamine.

427
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,680
Speaker 3: They leave things around, they don't. They lose track of

428
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 3: a whole lot of stuff.

429
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:07,679
Speaker 1: And that was a lot to find.

430
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 2: You know, quite a few of the amount, quite.

431
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,119
Speaker 1: A few of the containers of meth am fietamine. And

432
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 1: they seem, by the way, to be in those cute

433
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 1: little plastic containers that you get for your kids lunches

434
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 1: from New World, the.

435
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 2: Little screwy ones with the different colored lists. Yeah, they

436
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 2: seem they're very cute.

437
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,680
Speaker 1: But quite a lot of them were found in drawers

438
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:33,199
Speaker 1: and so forth belonging to Pauline. So maybe, and if

439
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,920
Speaker 1: I'm allowed to sort of say this out loud, he

440
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,679
Speaker 1: didn't think to look there. Maybe maybe he did get

441
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 1: rid of other stuff. You're right, maybe there was fifty

442
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 1: seven eighty.

443
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,880
Speaker 2: Is there a suggestion that she was enjoying methm fetamine

444
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:46,160
Speaker 2: as well?

445
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,679
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that suggestion has been made already by

446
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 1: the defense, and so when it can maybe further advanced

447
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 1: when it comes.

448
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 2: To the motivation that they're saying, or the motive is

449
00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 2: it just sort of just sort of insanity, like not insanity,

450
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 2: but like a moment of or just things out of control,

451
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 2: because it doesn't seem to be for me, a big

452
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:08,159
Speaker 2: purpose in it.

453
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 1: The crown never has to prove motive. That's their big thing.

454
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: They are drawing bows, of course, and one of them

455
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 1: is they're trying to draw a general picture of the

456
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:26,920
Speaker 1: intolerable pressure that he was under. And one of those

457
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 1: pressures and you will not be surprised to though, this

458
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 1: comes down to money. When you're in the ruling class,

459
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 1: money is huge to you. It's huge to everybody, but

460
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 1: there's a lot more to lose because you have more,

461
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,360
Speaker 1: you know, And he was feeling a lot of pressure.

462
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 1: And I think he has pretty much conceded this in

463
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,639
Speaker 1: the evidence which has come out so far. It was

464
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 1: feeling a lot of pressure that he wasn't getting the

465
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 1: payout he deserved from Auckland I where he worked as

466
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 1: a surgeon, and which is a.

467
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,479
Speaker 3: Very successful medical business, very successful.

468
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 1: It's usually successful. And he was one of the co

469
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 1: founders again you know, incredible sort of contribution, and he

470
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 1: worked as ringof you know, these people, they really work hard.

471
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 1: Pauline who was also would surely have been pulling down

472
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 1: quite a lot of money. We've heard that she was

473
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: putting away two five hundred dollars with every pay packet

474
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 1: into her retirement, which seems to be quite a bit

475
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 1: more than I would be putting away.

476
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 3: And she was working.

477
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 1: Incredibly long hours, so also under you know, huge pressure.

478
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 2: And well that's one of the defense. What was her profession?

479
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,360
Speaker 3: She she she worked for the DHB.

480
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 1: She worked for the DHB, and she was, like what

481
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,919
Speaker 1: had a major role in Auckland's response to the COVID

482
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 1: nineteen pandemic. So she was doing the vaccine rollout. That

483
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: was a trivial guide of job. So they both had

484
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 1: a lot of pressure and Polkinghorn was under you know,

485
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,400
Speaker 1: a lot of pressure financial actually, he was really stressed

486
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: that he was going to miss out on a hell

487
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: of a lot of money, and so the quarter advancing that,

488
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: and that goes towards this kind of finishing line where yeah,

489
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 1: he snaps. This is what Alisha McClintock, the Crown prosecutor

490
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 1: said in her opening address. It all drew to this point.

491
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 1: And we don't know, we don't know when she died.

492
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: That hasn't been advanced that they're talking about. They said

493
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: indeed in the opening defense that Pauline Pauline Hannah died

494
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 1: on or around April four and five. Five fifth of

495
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 1: April twenty twenty one was Easter Monday, and that's when

496
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 1: Polkinghon calls one one one, and that's when they discover

497
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: her body. The Crown suggesting that perhaps she was killed

498
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 1: sometime in the night before midnight on the fourth and

499
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 1: that gave them, therefore extra time to run around with

500
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 1: ropes fashion. This incredible. It's basically an incredibly elaborate hoax,

501
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 1: isn't it. That's the suggestion, I mean, what a hoax

502
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 1: to pull.

503
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 2: You could with ropes, so you could with cheers, or you.

504
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: Medically that advance that you would know how to make

505
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: it look like a suicide. He's a doctor, But what

506
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: talking about pressure? You if you have done this and

507
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 1: you come up with this incredible decision, this brutal, evil

508
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: idea to cover it up and then go about staging it.

509
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 4: So you've heard evidence from the pathologist, Steve, and it

510
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 4: doesn't seem like the pathologist has been able to say

511
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 4: exactly how Pauline died. It doesn't look like there was

512
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 4: a big struggle.

513
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,679
Speaker 1: Well, that's right, Jeremy, Yeah, that was. That was one

514
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:04,239
Speaker 1: of the more fascinating days of the trial. A lot

515
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,479
Speaker 1: of it has been about sex, some of it's been

516
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: about drugs, some of it's been about money. A core

517
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: of the trial has got to be about the science,

518
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 1: doesn't it.

519
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 2: You got to be like, it's a big deal if

520
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 2: the way you died was by hanging or what is

521
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 2: the what's the other way.

522
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 1: Year strangulation And they're advancing the idea that it was

523
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 1: some kind of choker hold, because there's there's no evidence

524
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: that she was strangled with two hands, you know, in

525
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: the classic manner. But yeah, when the pathologist showed up

526
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 1: and this was going to be a crucial day, one

527
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: where in one way or another, and certainly you could

528
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 1: think after the end of that and he suffered a

529
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 1: crutal cross examination, the likes of which I've rarely seen.

530
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 1: The last one I've seen like that was when the

531
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: Crown prosecutor, a guy called Gareth Kay's, Yeah, Gareth Kay's

532
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: cross examined Malcolm Raber in his defense of the murder

533
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: of Susan Boudette, and he just wiped the floor with him.

534
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: It was you kind of wanted to look away a

535
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: little bit. It was so brutal, very much similar to

536
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: this he had. He had the pathologists kind of raving

537
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: and saying strange things which were not apropos the murder

538
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 1: at all. At one point he turned to the prosecutor,

539
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: Alicia McClintock and asked her what color her eyes were,

540
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: to which you sort of gasped in an astonished way, Hazel,

541
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: this is how rattled he was. And yeah, there were

542
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: The defense asked all these questions, you know, were the

543
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: were there certain marks on her body? And he asked

544
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,719
Speaker 1: each specific question over and over and over, and all

545
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: the questions were all the answers were No, there weren't.

546
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 1: There was nothing consistent with a lot of the signs

547
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: you would expect from someone struggling when they're being assaulted,

548
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: when they're being strangled. When they're being killed, there is

549
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: a huge absence of them. There's a few signs of something.

550
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: This is Polkinghorn's famous cut on his forehead. Isn't there

551
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: a little nick? It's been called so many things in

552
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 1: this trial. An abrasion, a cut, a scratch, a scrape.

553
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: It goes on and on, and he is unaware of

554
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: it when emergency services arrive and police arrive, and I think, yeah,

555
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: somebody asks them about it at the house before he's

556
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: taken away by police and say, what's that cut.

557
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 2: On your head? And you go, what.

558
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: Wasn't aware of it? Could be a perfectly innocent expert.

559
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: He's cutting knife down. As you say, is you're bound

560
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: to be stressed to them?

561
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean about these things like right now,

562
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 2: I've got a cut on my finger, and if there

563
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 2: was I was accused of a murder, then that in

564
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 2: the next forty eight hours this cut would have a

565
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 2: lot more significance than just me cutting my finger.

566
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 4: Last week, I had a on my forehead when I

567
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 4: went to work and the makeup I said, oh, you've

568
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 4: got you've got a scratch on your thing, And I

569
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 4: said do I? And I have I was definitely not

570
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 4: in a scuffle with my partner or I was not

571
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 4: in a scuffle with anybody, And I don't know.

572
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:32,479
Speaker 3: How that got there.

573
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 4: You still don't to the stand no idea. I don't

574
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 4: have any idea. I feel like maybe I scratched myself

575
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 4: in the night or something weird.

576
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 3: I don't even know. It's quite so, you know, if everything.

577
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 2: Has so much significance, how quickly do you think they

578
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 2: changed from this as a suicide so this is potentially

579
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 2: a murder worth trying?

580
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, really good, christ, really good question. It would seem

581
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 1: extremely quickly.

582
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 2: I feel the police often go in somewhere and they go,

583
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 2: I reckon. And I've actually experienced this because I had

584
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 2: an office that was robbed and we went in and

585
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 2: the police were in there and they're talking to us

586
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 2: about the office and what they thought were happening, and

587
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 2: then they looked at a few things and they said,

588
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 2: this guy Chris that was working for us, had it

589
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 2: looks like he's got a gambling problem because they saw

590
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 2: a couple of things, and I go, I think this

591
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 2: is probably and this police and the two police officers

592
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 2: did this whole thing, and then what happened was Chris

593
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 2: had been working really late. We finally got through to him,

594
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 2: and what they had come up with was like basically

595
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 2: a kidnapping, like gambling problems. They were talking about everything

596
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 2: that was so clear in the scene, and what it

597
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 2: actually was was someone had just come through the front door,

598
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 2: grab some stuff, pulled it out. You know, it was

599
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 2: completely pedestrian what had happened. But I watched these police

600
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 2: come up with this verbally, this huge, huge conspiracy of

601
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 2: what had happened. So I often wonder that a little bit.

602
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 2: I think often the police are completely correct when they

603
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 2: come into a scene.

604
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,959
Speaker 1: But yeah, well they're being accused of tunnel vision by

605
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: the defense on this one, and it was pretty swift.

606
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: The first thing which absolutely, you know, triggered them was

607
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: the rope. And this is this kind of seems a

608
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: little bit weird, but one of the cops went up

609
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: to the rope and without taking a photograph of what

610
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: he was doing or a video video of what he

611
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: was doing, he tugged on it. He gave it a

612
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 1: tention test, and the rope unraveled, at which point they go,

613
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 1: oh my god, this could not have supported the weight

614
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: of a body. And one of the cops, we're not sure,

615
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: which writes something on the palm of his hand and

616
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: its police code for suspicious. And he shows this to

617
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: the other cops and so that was pretty quick, and

618
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: the defense go, well, we've heard the one one one

619
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: call Polking Morden's instructed by the operator to cut his

620
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: wife down, and he goes, he goes okay, and he

621
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: gets off the phone and you hear him moving around

622
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: the house and grunting and whatnot, and he cuts the rope.

623
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 1: He undoes it not or two. So yeah, yeah, of

624
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: course it cannot support a weight because he has loosened it.

625
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 1: He has loosened it to get his wife's body freed

626
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 1: from this from what he says killed.

627
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 4: And in defense of him as well, in defense of

628
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 4: the police officer, you do have to decide quite quickly

629
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 4: whether or not it is suspicious because it's got to

630
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 4: be a crime scene. So in that situation you need.

631
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 1: To don't touch the crime scene. He touched the crime scene.

632
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 1: He gave the rope of freaking big yank without taking

633
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 1: any pictures of it.

634
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 2: That is actually pretty bad from the prosecution point of view,

635
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 2: isn't it as well?

636
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 3: It's not great if.

637
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 2: The evidence was there that you could have actually tested

638
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 2: and proven that there was an argument. But now, I mean,

639
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 2: it's so easy for the defense saying, what we're doing,

640
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 2: yanking on the rope? What are you talking about?

641
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 4: That it took sixteen months, didn't it before they came

642
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 4: up with before they decided to change Exactly right, it's

643
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 4: a long time.

644
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 1: The suspicion was quick, the charge was enormously slow. And

645
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: you know, they always surely would have known this is

646
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: a hard one to get across the line. And there

647
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 1: must have been a day where they met with Crown

648
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: Prosecution and said, right, we've got to make a move

649
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: on this one way or another. And you know, if

650
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,919
Speaker 1: they're all thinking this son of a bitch did it, Yeah,

651
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 1: would have been full of you know, righteousness and good

652
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: on them for doing so. You know, they did not

653
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 1: forget it. They wanted to prosecute this guy who they

654
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: were convinced.

655
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 2: And they would keep finding more layers of the sort

656
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 2: of scandal that's coming out now, which would be fuel

657
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 2: for their fire that there's more to the story. Let's

658
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 2: keep going.

659
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:49,800
Speaker 1: Going to Mount Cook and knocking on the door of

660
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:54,359
Speaker 1: the Martariqi Rube at the large fighting polking On there

661
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: with the escort matters twenty five days or twenty days.

662
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 4: But he was having sex with these people while he

663
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 4: was merit, while Pauline was alive. So to me, the

664
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 4: fact that he had sex with these people when she

665
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 4: was dead was no, I don't think that's either way.

666
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,319
Speaker 2: That doesn't any when people deciding how people are going

667
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 2: to grieve, it is a really interesting I mean, look

668
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 2: at the Mark Lundey.

669
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,879
Speaker 1: I wonder whether you've got to men sure that that's right.

670
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, this isn't how people grieve. It's like, well, how

671
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 2: do people grieve?

672
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 1: Well, that's new. Zella never forgave Lundy for grieving too

673
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: visibly and vocally. Well, with Polkinghorn, they're attacking him because

674
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 1: he didn't grieve enough at the crime scene. He was

675
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: strangely calm, he was recollected, and then you hear what

676
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 1: was he like that the whole time?

677
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 3: No, he was weeping.

678
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's not adding up to a lot, is it? What? What?

679
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: What it is adding up to a lot? In the

680
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 1: first you know, three weeks of this trial, surely there's

681
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: a lot of reasonable doubt. But how the juris operate,

682
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:03,240
Speaker 1: we don't know that any institutions, and maybe pretty quickly

683
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: they took one look at the guy and said, we

684
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: think you're a cunt.

685
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 3: Yeah guilty. Yeah, it can happen.

686
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 2: That happens.

687
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 4: That can definitely happen, because I think in the end,

688
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 4: you hear a lot of evidence, and there will be

689
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 4: some people that will go on the evidence and as

690
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 4: you said, there's been so much of it, they're going

691
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 4: to be inundated with stuff.

692
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 3: And then you just have seen you go with you

693
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 3: if your gut and all.

694
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 2: Of us that are following the trial and think about it,

695
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:27,839
Speaker 2: we have things in our heads that we stick through

696
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 2: that are stronger.

697
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 3: Than anything anyone says.

698
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 2: We're like, yeah, where was the suicide note? And I

699
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 2: don't actually know any stats on how often there's suicide

700
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 2: notes and how often there isn't but you go, where's

701
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 2: a suicide note? And then you're in a dura and

702
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 2: that's the thing you can't get past.

703
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 1: You go, where is a suicide note? You go, why

704
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 1: would a woman like Pauline hang herself? You know, she

705
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 1: took huge pride in her appearance, she was immaculate. Would

706
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: she this is the kind of the diva theory? Would

707
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,959
Speaker 1: she not have taken a huge overdose and God knows

708
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 1: she had enough pills there to kill her horse, you know,

709
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:03,919
Speaker 1: and lay down on the bed in a beautiful gown

710
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,720
Speaker 1: and a beautiful dress instead of this tatty old dressing

711
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: gown of nothing beneath it.

712
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's that theory.

713
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: And these are not sciences, are they? No, they're not,

714
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 1: but you know, I mean it's a beautiful thing in

715
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 1: a way. The criminal justice system a jury. These are

716
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: twelve complete strangers lifted off the street. You watch them

717
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 1: in jury selection. There's forty people come in. A few

718
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: of them get challenged by the defense, thrown off. Quite

719
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 1: a few of them went to the judge and whispered

720
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 1: in his head it said, for some reason or an other,

721
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 1: I can't do this trial, and we don't know what

722
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,320
Speaker 1: that is. And you end up with twelve people dragged

723
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 1: them off the streets, a jury of your peers. That's

724
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 1: where that comes from, isn't it. And it's up to them,

725
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 1: And there's something kind of beautiful about it, you know.

726
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 1: It's not up to a judge with his learning, his

727
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 1: comprehensive understanding of science of how prosecution works and how

728
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: defense works. He's a twelve people with no professional capacity

729
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: with justice, and they're just there to go yeah, nah

730
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 1: you did it, or yeah no, I don't know, let

731
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: him go. This is really what it comes down to,

732
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:21,320
Speaker 1: and there's there's something, there's something beautiful in society affirming

733
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 1: about it, and yet at the same time, of course

734
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: I get it to be wrong. Well, I mean, Thomas etcetera.

735
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, Tina Poorer, Oh my god. Yeah.

736
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 3: We had Chuck Kinwood on the show the other thing.

737
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 1: You really really I just reviewed his book. What was

738
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: he like?

739
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,879
Speaker 2: He was a top guy, really, yeah, very very empathetic guy.

740
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 1: Is he witty? What's he like? Is he fast thinking?

741
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 1: What's he like?

742
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 2: He's he's pretty, He's pretty witty.

743
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:47,879
Speaker 3: He's a nice guy.

744
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 2: He'd had a hit. He sort of the earth guy

745
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 2: he had. I think he had a raging hangover from

746
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 2: catching up with his Auckland mates the night before. Was

747
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 2: on the back foot a little bit.

748
00:39:55,520 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 1: But really with Catfish, Spud and Lammo, Chuck was.

749
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 2: The kind of man that that he's he there was

750
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 2: a sort of manliness about him. It was definitely a

751
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 2: manliness about it, that man.

752
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:08,439
Speaker 1: Yeah.

753
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, just to quite He's thought through everything,

754
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 2: so well, and and what I got from him was

755
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 2: just the tension of you talk about the righteousness and

756
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:22,320
Speaker 2: you know with all those rapes that were happening in

757
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 2: that area, how how much it got to him and

758
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 2: how he had to do something about it.

759
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, in his book, it's a very good book.

760
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I loved it.

761
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 1: It's unput downable. Actually, it's a like a lifeless punishment.

762
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 3: You just can't push similar. You take it with you

763
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 3: everywhere year go.

764
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 2: It might have had a bigger effect on society than me,

765
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 2: but we'll leave that toss of the coin.

766
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, he writes about, you know, the terrible crimes

767
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: that were occurring during the reign of terror that Joseph

768
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 1: Thompson had, and he keeps, he continue is writing, got

769
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 1: to stop it, got to stop it.

770
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 2: And you know that that is sincere, it's sincere to

771
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 2: this day and his and his regret of what he

772
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 2: couldn't do, you know, and you know is that right? Well, well,

773
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 2: how many how many things happened after he because you know,

774
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 2: if you don't get there quick enough, then more of

775
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 2: these things were happening, if you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah,

776
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 2: of course, so so as much as you you're excited

777
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 2: by it, by by solving it, you're still like, we

778
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 2: could have done that quicker.

779
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 1: Of course. Yeah, but yeah, no, I'm glad you bought that.

780
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 2: Good cop, unequivocally a good good cop.

781
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:37,840
Speaker 3: Steve.

782
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 4: The book The Survivors is out now in New Zealand's

783
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 4: award winning true crime writer Steve Browney's stories of death

784
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 4: and desperation.

785
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:49,840
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for coming ers, Fellows.

786
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they've got you back in the game. But

787
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,919
Speaker 2: you're back. You're back, You're back in the game. But yeah,

788
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 2: no one writes about about these subjects in New Zealand

789
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 2: in the way that you do. And it's just fantastic

790
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 2: to read. But the heart you put into it, and

791
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 2: the and the and yeah, and the ability to see

792
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 2: both sides of everything is phenomenal. So this five US

793
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 2: good book