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Speaker 1: Good a. It's Jerry here from the Heidechy Breakfast, just

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Speaker 1: letting you know that if you're listening to the podcast

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Speaker 1: but didn't know that we also do a live radio show,

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Speaker 1: we do. And if you're wondering how to find out

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Speaker 1: what frequency to listen to us in your area, just

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Speaker 1: takes north or South as an Island to three four

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Speaker 1: eight three and we'll let you know. And now let's

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Speaker 1: get on with the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Let sandel.

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Speaker 1: Garbage are playing in Auckland on Wednesday, the third of

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Speaker 1: December at the Auckland Town Hall and Garbage found a

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Speaker 1: drummer and producer, a legendary Butcher Bak joins us.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: But where in the world are we talking to you today?

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Speaker 3: Well, good day, gentlemen. I'm in Salt Lake City in

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Speaker 3: the heartland of the United States. So we have four

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Speaker 3: shows to go in the US run and then we're

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Speaker 3: home for a few days.

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Speaker 2: Then we go to Mexico.

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Speaker 3: The shows have been fantastic, but Sureley and I have

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Speaker 3: been battling the Lurgi for about three weeks, so the

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Speaker 3: shows have still been great, but it's it's hard to

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Speaker 3: when you get a sinus infection or a head cold.

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Speaker 3: Hard to get rid of on tour man.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, this is going to be. One of my

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Speaker 4: questions was how do you because you're playing so many

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Speaker 4: gigs even before you get over here, then there's international travel.

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Speaker 4: What do you do in between to make sure that

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Speaker 4: you can, you know, keep trucking on.

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Speaker 2: Sleep, sleep, sleep, sleep, and more sleep. I have to say,

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Speaker 2: the shows have been incredible on this run.

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Speaker 3: Part of that, I think is because Shirley's talking about

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Speaker 3: this on stage every night that this is probably one

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Speaker 3: of the, if not the last, sort of headline tour

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Speaker 3: we're going to do. So I think fans are coming

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Speaker 3: out because they want to see us do our own show.

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Speaker 3: We're not quitting touring, but I don't you know, we're

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Speaker 3: doing a forty show run and it's just it's quite

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Speaker 3: a slog. We've been out since September first, and it's

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Speaker 3: not the shows, it's just the travel just completely wears

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Speaker 3: you down. So every night it feels like in some

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Speaker 3: of the cities like it might be the last time

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Speaker 3: we play there. So the fans have just been fantastic,

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Speaker 3: and as I said, Shirley's been on fire every night.

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Speaker 2: The shows have been excellent.

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Speaker 1: But you have been incredibly successful in your music career.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to be touring if you don't want

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Speaker 1: to be touring. I imagine what keeps you playing and

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Speaker 1: what do you prefer doing. Do you prefer spending time

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Speaker 1: in the studio nowadays or you still get that kick

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Speaker 1: from being on stage.

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Speaker 3: I do get a kick from being on stage. You

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Speaker 3: get this adrenaline rush that you don't really get in

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Speaker 3: the studio. I mean that being said, I prefer being

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Speaker 3: in the studio. I've always been a studio rat.

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Speaker 2: Every day I walk in to.

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Speaker 3: Record, whether it's with a garbage or if I'm producing

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Speaker 3: someone else, something new happens or some detours happen, and

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Speaker 3: it's always unpredictable and I just love it. But playing

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Speaker 3: live is something I've been doing in band since I

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Speaker 3: was fifteen or sixteen years old, and I and I

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Speaker 3: still love that too. Like I said, there's this connection

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Speaker 3: with an audience that you can't get anywhere else. You

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Speaker 3: can't get it on a zoom call or on a

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Speaker 3: TV broadcaster in the recording studio, but it happens when

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Speaker 3: you're on stage in front of an audience, and it's

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Speaker 3: still very very addictive.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I suppose it's that part of it. So obviously,

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Speaker 4: like you said, the travel wheezy down, but does the

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Speaker 4: gig itself actually throw you back up a bit?

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Speaker 2: Every night?

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Speaker 3: Sometimes a half hour before we go on, we're all like,

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Speaker 3: oh my god, how are we going to play a show?

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Speaker 2: We're all dead tired.

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Speaker 3: And then you walk out right, you know, right before

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Speaker 3: you go on, and you hear the roar of the

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Speaker 3: crowd and the adrenaline just goes goes through the roof

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Speaker 3: and we're on stage for an hour and forty five

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Speaker 3: minutes and it's just it's fantastic.

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Speaker 4: I ask your question, You've probably been asked a million times,

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Speaker 4: and the answer is often with bands a little liss

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Speaker 4: then you think it's going to be what garbage? Why

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Speaker 4: did you name the band garbage?

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Speaker 2: Well? I used to tell this story, you know, when

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Speaker 2: we are the band.

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Speaker 3: We looked in the book of rock names and there

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Speaker 3: were only two names left Hoody and the Blowfish and

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Speaker 3: Garbage and Garbage.

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Speaker 1: But we need to be finished playing. You're obviously on

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Speaker 1: a high. Are you a drinker? Hew? Do you wind down?

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Speaker 2: Ah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I like to drink wine, particularly

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Speaker 3: so many blocs that's been sort of my go to

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Speaker 3: jam after shows.

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Speaker 2: But it's hard, man.

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Speaker 3: The adrenaline stays with you for two or three hours,

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Speaker 3: and at least on this run, we pretty much get

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Speaker 3: on the tour bus around midnight and we drive to

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Speaker 3: the next city, and I'm usually sitting up, sometimes watching

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Speaker 3: a movie or listening to music until two or three

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Speaker 3: in the morning until I can fall asleep.

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Speaker 2: So and it's it's that way for a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: Surely is the same way. She's all wound up and

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Speaker 2: can't sleep, so we're we're very sleep deprived. That's what

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Speaker 2: happens when you go on tour.

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Speaker 4: Yea plenty of good wine over here, but I think

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Speaker 4: you're gonna appreciate it. Do you travel around much when

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Speaker 4: you're on the road or is it basically just off

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Speaker 4: to the next gig. Do you get to say much

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Speaker 4: of the places you're in.

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Speaker 2: On a day off?

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Speaker 3: We do, you know, We're we're all foodies in this band,

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Speaker 3: so we try to find great restaurants to go to,

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Speaker 3: whether it's for lunch or dinner. I walked around today

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Speaker 3: and went to a museum, stopped in there for like

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Speaker 3: an hour, and looked around in Salt Lake.

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Speaker 2: It's a beautiful city.

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Speaker 3: But some days I have plans to do that right,

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Speaker 3: and then you wake up in a hotel room and

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Speaker 3: just you just lay there. I turn on CNN and

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Speaker 3: I just veg you out for a couple hours until

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Speaker 3: we have to get up and go to sound check.

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Speaker 1: Butch, obviously you produced one of the greatest albums of

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Speaker 1: all time. There's no doubt about that. Never Mind. When

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Speaker 1: was the last time you sit down and put it

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Speaker 1: on and listen to it? And it's entirety.

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Speaker 3: I don't really put the album on unless I'm listening

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Speaker 3: to a new test pressing of a mass Dream or

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Speaker 3: some of the box sets that Nirvana have released over

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Speaker 3: the years.

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Speaker 2: I'm involved with that in.

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Speaker 3: The in the in the the sound and the final

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Speaker 3: selection of the songs as the producer. But I hear

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Speaker 3: it all the time on the radio and clubs, people

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Speaker 3: walking down the street.

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Speaker 2: It's, you know, never Mind Us everywhere.

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Speaker 3: It's one of those records that just has infiltrated the

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Speaker 3: universe in a good way, and everywhere I go. I

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Speaker 3: was in line getting a coffee this morning, there was

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Speaker 3: some girl with a Nevermind T shirt.

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Speaker 2: I'm standing in front of me, and I wanted to say,

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Speaker 2: do you know that I produced that RecA? But I didn't.

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Speaker 2: I did, but I was not.

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Speaker 3: I was not awake enough to actually get into a conversation.

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Speaker 1: Is it any of that you hid in the sipmarket

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Speaker 1: or anyway that annoys you? Is there anything that would

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Speaker 1: you change now?

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Speaker 2: Well?

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Speaker 3: No, I mean that the one thing that is sort

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Speaker 3: of annoying. If we uh go to a club, if

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Speaker 3: we sometimes after a show or whatever, we'll go to

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Speaker 3: a bar, right and if the manager whatever recognizes me,

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Speaker 3: sometimes they put Nevermind on because they think I want

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Speaker 3: to hear it and I don't really want to. Or

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Speaker 3: they'll put Garbage on too, and so it's like and

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Speaker 3: then I feel self conscious, you know, because.

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Speaker 2: Okay, they know I'm here, they're playing the record. But

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Speaker 2: at this point, I mean, it's all it's all good.

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Speaker 3: That the record changed my life, and I wouldn't have

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Speaker 3: been able to start Garbage if I hadn't had this

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Speaker 3: success with never Mind, So it's all it's all good, karma.

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Speaker 4: I was writing a thing that apparently some of the

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Speaker 4: people in the band was saying that it was maybe

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Speaker 4: recorded or produced too well, like too slick?

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Speaker 3: Was that a thing that was bullshit. They had to

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Speaker 3: say that after they sold twenty million records. When we

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Speaker 3: finished their record, they were over the moon. They couldn't

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Speaker 3: believe how fantastic it sound. If you listen to it,

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Speaker 3: it's not overproduced at all. It's bass drums, a couple

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Speaker 3: double track guitars, Kurt's vocals double tracked. It's raw. It's

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Speaker 3: very very raw recorded basically live. It sounds city. But

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Speaker 3: as a punk band, if you sell twenty million records,

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Speaker 3: you can't say, oh man, I'm so happy we've had

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Speaker 3: this success. You have to disown it. And that's what

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Speaker 3: they did. They had to disown never mind. At the time, did.

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Speaker 1: You know you were making one of the greatest albums

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Speaker 1: of all time at the time.

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Speaker 3: No, I mean I knew that the band was really

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Speaker 3: tight and focused. I knew I was capturing great performances

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Speaker 3: and the songs were just super hooky. But at the

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Speaker 3: time we thought, maybe this will be as big as

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Speaker 3: a Pixies record, you know, sell five hundred thousand copies,

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Speaker 3: because we're all huge Pixies fans, and I think it's

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Speaker 3: so like, in two weeks it sold five hundred thousand copies,

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Speaker 3: So it kind of it just completely blew away all

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Speaker 3: of our expectations.

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Speaker 1: It's city four years old, and it's quite remarkable to

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Speaker 1: think that. You know, in two thousand and one, Mountain

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Speaker 1: Sergeant Pippers would have been thirty four years old. In

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Speaker 1: two thousand and one and never Mind's thirty four years old.

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Speaker 1: Does that weed you out?

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Speaker 3: It's weird because it doesn't feel that long ago to me.

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Speaker 3: Time sort of gets weirdly compressed to me. In the

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Speaker 3: studio and touring, everything kind of runs together. It's all

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Speaker 3: about making music, whether it's recording my own stuff or

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Speaker 3: producing someone else. So it's very bizarre. I don't seem

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Speaker 3: to have a realistic aspect of how time has passed,

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Speaker 3: so everything seems closer to me than as distant as

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Speaker 3: it actually is. It's very strange. I'm not sure why

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Speaker 3: that is.

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Speaker 4: That's sort of all happening at the same time. How

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Speaker 4: did the life change after that album come out?

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Speaker 3: Well, I went back to Madison, and the first thing

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Speaker 3: that happened is I started getting calls from all the

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Speaker 3: labels and in r people who wanted me to produce

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Speaker 3: a band. You know, they thought that I had some

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Speaker 3: magic button or some magic potion I could inject into

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Speaker 3: a band and they would be as big as Nirvana,

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Speaker 3: and of course there was only one Nirvana. But it

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Speaker 3: was great because it opened up a lot of doors

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Speaker 3: for me. And I just mentioned this before. At the

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Speaker 3: point I did Nevermind in Siamese Dream in Sonic Youth,

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Speaker 3: I had done so many rock records and punk rock records.

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Speaker 3: I was getting burned out in that. I was tired

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Speaker 3: of guitar, bass and drums, and that's why I started Garbage.

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Speaker 3: And I would not have been able to start Garbage

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Speaker 3: if I hadn't had that success with never Mind.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting because I've met Sally before. She's Scottish. Everyone

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Speaker 1: else is American. How did that happen?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, very strange. You know, we started Garbage.

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Speaker 3: The idea of Garbage just do conceive in me working

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Speaker 3: on music and sort of using the approach that I

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Speaker 3: did on these remixes that I did with Beck and

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Speaker 3: Nine Inch Nails and you two, where we incorporated a

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Speaker 3: lot of different rhythms and electronic and beats and chopped

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Speaker 3: up guitars and things. That was sort of the template

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Speaker 3: for our sound. But we didn't have a singer. And

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Speaker 3: then Shirley saw Angelfish on on MTV's one hundred and

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Speaker 3: twenty Minutes on Sunday night, and he happened to tape

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Speaker 3: the show on his VHS, you know, his DVR, and

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Speaker 3: brought it in the next day and said, I think

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Speaker 3: this singer could be good. We should see if she'd

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Speaker 3: be interested in doing a track with us. And we

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Speaker 3: listened to the song, which is called Suffocate Me, and

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Speaker 3: what I loved about it is that she sang it

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Speaker 3: really low and understated, unlike a lot of the alternative

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Speaker 3: singers at the time who were really emo, really screaming,

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Speaker 3: singing hard, really pushing their vocals. Surely did the opposite,

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Speaker 3: and that's why we called her.

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Speaker 1: You would with so many people, butcher of the year's

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Speaker 1: amazing legends of music in the studio, tell me, who

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Speaker 1: is there anyone who's really stood out to you?

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Speaker 2: Oh man, I'm so lucky.

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Speaker 3: I've worked with incredibly talented artists and musicians. I mean,

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Speaker 3: Kurt was obviously an incredibly talented songwriter, you know, very conflicted,

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Speaker 3: you know, had these terrible mood swings, but he had

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Speaker 3: so much talent.

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Speaker 2: He was just like he was a.

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Speaker 3: Natural melodicist, much like someone like Paul McCartney. I really

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Speaker 3: hit it off with Billy Corgan as difficult as Billy

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Speaker 3: could be. You know, we both respected each other a lot,

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Speaker 3: and we pushed each other hard. I pushed him really

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Speaker 3: hard and he pushed me right back. And we set

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Speaker 3: the bar really high when we went into record Siame's Dream,

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Speaker 3: and that was probably one of the hardest records I

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Speaker 3: ever made. But I'm really I think it turned out fantastic.

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Speaker 1: How do you decide the SAT list on a Garbage tour?

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Speaker 2: Good question.

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Speaker 3: Usually we let Shirley kind of pick what she wants

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Speaker 3: to sing.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we all have input into it.

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Speaker 3: But on the recent tour, in fact, there are recent tours,

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Speaker 3: we're trying to play songs in this set. You know,

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Speaker 3: a lot of our singles that have been on the radio,

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Speaker 3: like Cherry e Lips and only Happy When It Rains.

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Speaker 3: But she's also trying to pick songs that lyrically are

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Speaker 3: saying something right now that the world is pretty crazy

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Speaker 3: at the moment. It's very crazy here in the United

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Speaker 3: States and it is everywhere actually, So she tries to

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Speaker 3: pick songs lyrically that I think make people think, like

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Speaker 3: a song like Cherry Ellipse or a song like bleed

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Speaker 3: like me. The trick is to keep breathing that have

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Speaker 3: something to say that can resonate with people sort of

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Speaker 3: on a personal level, if that makes any sense.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're looking forward to seeing when you come to

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Speaker 1: New Zealand. You're playing at the Auckland Town Hall, which

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Speaker 1: is a cool venue. Some people say it's got some

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Speaker 1: of the best acoustics of any music hall in the world.

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Speaker 1: People like a lot of classical musicians liking it to

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Speaker 1: the music Varian and v inn It's that square, kind

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Speaker 1: of rectangular box vibe. So really looking forward to you

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Speaker 1: guys coming down here. Thanks so much, but it's been

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Speaker 1: a great pleasure.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm looking forward to haven't been in New Zealand

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Speaker 3: since pre COVID and I'm coming down there with my

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Speaker 3: wife who's never been to New Zealand. And we're getting

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Speaker 3: there a couple of days early so we can just

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Speaker 3: sort of travel around.

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Speaker 2: We're going to go to some wineries and things.

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Speaker 3: And my favorite wine in the entire world is the

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Speaker 3: Kiwi wine.

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Speaker 2: Gray Wacky saw Many in blanc.

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Speaker 1: Is that right?

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Speaker 2: The Kevin Judd. Kevin Judd is the winemaker.

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Speaker 3: Years ago he was at Cloudy Bay, which is like

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Speaker 3: the first sort of Sawny and Blanc I discovered.

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Speaker 2: And I invited Kevin and his crew or they're.

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Speaker 3: Coming to the show, so I'm hoping we'll be hoisting

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Speaker 3: a glass of Gray Wacky before we take the stage.

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Speaker 1: Oh you're a good man, Butch, and thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for your time this morning, and best of luck with everything,

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Speaker 1: good luck with the rest of the tur and look

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Speaker 1: forward to seeing you.

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Speaker 2: In New Zealand. Cool. Thanks guys.

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Speaker 1: Happy when it rains, I'm only happy when it complicated.

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Speaker 3: I know, I know you can't appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: I'm only happy whin it ras