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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news talks it be.

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Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of the down the Layton

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Speaker 1: Smith podcast powered by news talks it.

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Speaker 2: B Welcome to podcasts two hundred and sixty seven for

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Speaker 2: twenty seven November twenty twenty four. You know when the

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Speaker 2: New Zealand Parliamentary debating chamber was reduced to a comedic stage. Recently,

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Speaker 2: the whole world took notice. Over the years, this country

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Speaker 2: has been ridiculed on numerous occasions, more so during the

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Speaker 2: adern administration. And come to think of it, there have

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Speaker 2: been numerous counts of New Zealand politicians in particular making

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Speaker 2: this country appear as a non civilized backwater. But the

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Speaker 2: latest event stands isolated in the ranks of stupidity. The target,

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Speaker 2: David Seymour, deserves congratulating for his demeanor. The patience of

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Speaker 2: mister Speaker was too much to bear. His inability to

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Speaker 2: enforce suspension of the perpetrator exemplifies many failings in our system. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: surrender was the worst option I've had Inquiries from friends, family,

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Speaker 2: and from listeners overseas as to what the heck is

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Speaker 2: happening to New Zealand, and I would bet that many

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Speaker 2: of you have also, So for those who don't understand

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Speaker 2: the position we find ourselves in, David Seymour, the Act

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Speaker 2: Party leader, provides answers to most of those questions. He is,

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Speaker 2: after all the man of the moment with the Treaty

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Speaker 2: Principle's Bill. But first Cop twenty nine has just concluded

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Speaker 2: in Maaku in Azerbaijan. As usual, there were a dramatic

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Speaker 2: number of people there, far more than is necessary, and

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Speaker 2: it cost megabucks, as it always does huge And I

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Speaker 2: might touch on some of that the back end of

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Speaker 2: the podcast, but I want to give you an example

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Speaker 2: of why all this is a waste of time. It's

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Speaker 2: one of many, many, many, but it's the most recent

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Speaker 2: that's come to the hand. It was published today November

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Speaker 2: twenty seven, written by Frank Battini, who was a forester

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Speaker 2: and environmental scientist, previously an adjunct professor of environmental science

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Speaker 2: at a Murdoch College or the Murdoch University in Western Australia.

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Speaker 2: It's published in Quadrant magazine and I'll give you a

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Speaker 2: bit more detail. I remember at the end headed bad

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Speaker 2: models and worse science in West Australia. Within government, academia

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Speaker 2: and the media. In Western Australia, it is now virtually

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Speaker 2: an undeniable truth that rainfall in the southwest of the

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Speaker 2: state is in permanent decline and that this is caused

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Speaker 2: by increased levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. The

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Speaker 2: premise is that only net zero by twenty fifty will

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Speaker 2: correct the situation. However, this is a deception based on

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Speaker 2: flawed models and failure to consider long term rainfall records.

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Speaker 2: Rainfall data collected over a period of one hundred and

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Speaker 2: sixty years support an alternative hypothesis. Rainfall patterns follow multidecadaled cycles,

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Speaker 2: and there have been many periods in our history when

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Speaker 2: the climate has been wetter or drier than average. As

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Speaker 2: I will outline below, my attempt to discuss this alternative

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Speaker 2: scenario with model makers and government have been fruitless. Simply put,

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Speaker 2: climate modelers and proponents of climate change are in the

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Speaker 2: ascendency and they choose to ignore the empirical data because

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Speaker 2: you're ready, because their models cannot explain it. In this discussion,

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Speaker 2: I start with four things about which the model makers

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Speaker 2: and I agree. I don't dispute the carbon dioxide SEE

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Speaker 2: two is one of the greenhouse gases, although by far

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Speaker 2: not the most dominant. I agree that rainfall has been

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Speaker 2: generally below long term averages over the last or over

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Speaker 2: recent decades. I also agree that without greenhouse gases, our

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Speaker 2: earth would be inhospitably cold and humans would not have evolved.

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Speaker 2: And finally, CO two is not a dangerous pollutant. It

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Speaker 2: is a key ingredient in the process of photosynthesis, without

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Speaker 2: which all humans would die. Do they teach that to

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Speaker 2: kids in school when they teach the other crap? He

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Speaker 2: goes on. Where the model makers and I disagree, however,

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Speaker 2: is with the assertion that our below average rainfall, which

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Speaker 2: they call a drying trend since nineteen seventy, is a

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Speaker 2: result of rising levels of CO two and increased temperature.

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Speaker 2: The WA Department of Water and Environmental Regulation reduced to

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Speaker 2: dwer or clearly believe this. Indeed, they go even further.

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Speaker 2: Their climate model makers project a trend line of further

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Speaker 2: decreases in rainfall via up to fifteen percent by twenty thirty,

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Speaker 2: and by a further twenty five to forty five percent

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Speaker 2: by twenty ninety, depending on whether intermediate or high emission

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Speaker 2: scenarios of carbon dioxide are used in their model. The

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Speaker 2: post nineteen seventy decline in rainfall in the southwest of

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Speaker 2: West Australia is said to be the most extreme in

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Speaker 2: Australia and likened by Duur to the Canary in the

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Speaker 2: coal mine. It is receiving special attention and attracting funds.

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Speaker 2: The WA government has recently funded a three million dollar

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Speaker 2: climate change initiative study, the aim being to further refine

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Speaker 2: climate models. This initiative can be traced back directly to

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Speaker 2: duurs dramatically pessimistic projections of future rainfall. One more little paragraph.

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Speaker 2: There is an intriguing flaw in all of this. The

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Speaker 2: climate modelers have overlooked one of the most basic principles

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Speaker 2: in the science of trend analysis and projection. This is

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Speaker 2: the choice of baseline, the starting point from which a

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Speaker 2: trend is analyzed. Selection of baseline is critical, since an

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Speaker 2: inappropriate selection will lead to incorrect conclusions and to flawed projections.

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Speaker 2: The baseline year that WA climate model makers have chosen

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Speaker 2: is nineteen fifty. I shall leave it there. Bad models

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Speaker 2: and worse science from quadrant dot org dot Au November

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Speaker 2: twenty seven. Now at the back end of two sixty seven,

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Speaker 2: after the mail room and possibly a little more on climate,

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Speaker 2: there is a missive from someone known as a former

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Speaker 2: National Party MP and I don't think you want to

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Speaker 2: miss it, but in a moment David Seymour. Leverrix is

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Speaker 2: an antihistamine made in Switzerland to the highest quality. Leverix

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Speaker 2: relieves hay fever in skin, allergies or itchy skin. It's

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Speaker 2: a dual action antihistamine and has a unique nasal decongestent action.

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Speaker 2: It's fast acting for fast relief and it works in

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Speaker 2: under an hour and lasts for over twenty four hours.

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Speaker 2: Leverrix is a tiny tablet that unblocks the nose, deals

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Speaker 2: with itchy eyes, and stops sneezing. Leverrix is an antihistamine

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Speaker 2: made in Switzerland to the highest quantity. So next time

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Speaker 2: you're in need of an effective antihistamine, call into the

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Speaker 2: pharmacy and ask for Leverrix lv Rix, Leverrix and always

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Speaker 2: read the label. Take as directed and if symptoms persist,

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Speaker 2: see your health professional. Farmer Broker Auckland Layton Smith David Seymour,

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Speaker 2: Act Party leader soon to be Deputy Prime Minister, Man

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Speaker 2: of the moment. So it seems it's good to have

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Speaker 2: you back on the Laton Smith podcast and thank you.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate it.

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Speaker 3: No, thank you, Laton. That's always a good conversation.

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Speaker 2: Here, David. I have had lots of inquiries from people,

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Speaker 2: including overseas, wanting to know what the story is that

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Speaker 2: we're about to discuss the Treaty Principles Bill and the

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Speaker 2: why it is causing such of us and how did

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Speaker 2: we get here. I thought it appropriate to approach it

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Speaker 2: from a historical point of view and go back to

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Speaker 2: wherever you think might be the beginning of this and

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Speaker 2: develop it, not necessarily in every detail, but in enough

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Speaker 2: so that people can get a grasp on it. So

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Speaker 2: let me make a comment first. To me, the situation

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Speaker 2: we find ourselves in is very largely the responsibility of

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Speaker 2: administrations through the years, different administrations of both sides of

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Speaker 2: the isle, who have handled things incompetently. Now, starting where

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Speaker 2: you think the beginning should be, do you agree with

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Speaker 2: that or where would you go?

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Speaker 4: I do, but I'll go right back. I think about

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Speaker 4: sixty million years, New Zealand became a land mass very

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Speaker 4: isolated from the rest of the world, one of the

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Speaker 4: reasons we have such unusual bird life and flora and

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Speaker 4: flauna generally. And it wasn't until about thirteen hundred that

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Speaker 4: some Polynesian explorers found New Zealand's and settled here and

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Speaker 4: became the Maori people, and they lived in total isolation

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Speaker 4: until sixteen forty two when Abel Tasman from the Netherlands

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Speaker 4: staled past and lived without contact with Europeans until seventeen

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Speaker 4: six nine when Captain Cook actually landed. And throughout the

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Speaker 4: late seventeen hundreds and early eighteen hundreds there was some

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Speaker 4: settlement in some trading of Europeans, but only in the

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Speaker 4: low hundreds, perhaps the low thousands. By eighteen thirty five

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Speaker 4: there was a little bit of friction. A lot of

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Speaker 4: Mari had traveled at least to Sydney, in some cases

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Speaker 4: to London. They started to think about what a nation

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Speaker 4: state would look like, and some northern Maori issued Hefakaputia,

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Speaker 4: or the Declaration of Independence, which they would regard as

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Speaker 4: creating an independent and separate nation. By eighteen forty things

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Speaker 4: were getting more difficult. The French were sniffing around the

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Speaker 4: South Pacific. There'd been mass conflict amongst Maori due to

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Speaker 4: being provided with muskets, which they used to settle old

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Speaker 4: scores and kill almost ends of thousands of people in

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Speaker 4: the Musket Wars. And so the idea of this supposedly

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Speaker 4: independent nation forming some sort of relationship with the British

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Speaker 4: Crown seemed very appealing because, as I mentioned, some had

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Speaker 4: been to London, some had been to Sydney. They saw

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Speaker 4: that the United Kingdom as being the superpower of its day,

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Speaker 4: as they'd found out once they got hold of the muskets,

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Speaker 4: and they were eager for the rights and duties of

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Speaker 4: British citizens for the protection of the British Crown, partly

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Speaker 4: from the settlers and partly from each other.

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Speaker 3: And so they signed this.

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Speaker 4: Treaty at Waititony on the sixth of February eighteen forty.

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Speaker 4: I think what nobody at that time had anticipated was

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Speaker 4: quite how rapidly Europeans would come. And so by the

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Speaker 4: end of the nineteen hundreds you had over half a

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Speaker 4: million Europeans here, and the Maori population had actually shrunk

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Speaker 4: due to disease and conflict and so on, to a

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Speaker 4: tenth of that. And so I think, you know, there's

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Speaker 4: probably a fair grievance that in that period, in the

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Speaker 4: late nineteenth century to late eighteen hundreds, that is a

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Speaker 4: lot of things that nobody could.

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Speaker 3: Have anticipated happened.

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Speaker 4: And through the twentieth century, you know, a rising movement

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Speaker 4: came about to try and restore the Maru language and

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Speaker 4: culture the place of Maori. Serapurana Nata, who was on

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Speaker 4: the fifty dollar note, played an incredible role in really

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Speaker 4: revitalizing a culture again. And by the sixties and seventies,

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Speaker 4: just like around the world, you had a lot of

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Speaker 4: revolts and a lot of people protesting and campaigning for

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Speaker 4: different movements all over the place. In New Zealand, you

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Speaker 4: had the idea that they needed to a real reckoning

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Speaker 4: in New Zealand's race relations and a change in our

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Speaker 4: constitutional arrangement. And that gets you to nineteen seventy five

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Speaker 4: when the Treaty of White Tangy X was passed. It

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Speaker 4: created the White Tangy Tribunal and it said that there

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Speaker 4: were principles of the treaty, but nobody knew what they

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Speaker 4: were and nobody really asked the question for another twelve

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Speaker 4: years when Parliament passed a law saying that in order

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Speaker 4: to privatize some hydro electricity companies, the government would observe

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Speaker 4: the principles of the treaty. So the Maori Council went

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Speaker 4: off to the Court of Appeal and they said, well,

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Speaker 4: we think the principles are that the treaty formed a

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Speaker 4: partnership between races. It involves active care and protection on

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Speaker 4: the part of the Crown towards Maori. And all of

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Speaker 4: a sudden you had this idea that there was a

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Speaker 4: group of people who were in partnership either with all

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Speaker 4: Europeans or at least with the Crown, and all of

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Speaker 4: a sudden our country was divided into collectives. And over

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Speaker 4: the ensuing fifty years, the White Hangh Tribunal, the courts,

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Speaker 4: at some point the Public Service have tried to expand

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Speaker 4: and define those principles. But where it got us to

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Speaker 4: buy about twenty twenty twenty twenty one is that the

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Speaker 4: partnership principle that New Zealand is an amalgam of two

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Speaker 4: collectives based on ancestry.

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Speaker 3: Had really gone full flight.

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Speaker 4: So we had to have a separate Maori Health Authority

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Speaker 4: because there's two partners we had to have co governance

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Speaker 4: of three waters, the municipal infrastructure. We had to have

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Speaker 4: two chief executives at the Human Rights Commission, one representing

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Speaker 4: each side of the partnership.

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Speaker 3: Schools or school boards.

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Speaker 4: Were required to give effect to the treaty, meaning that

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Speaker 4: they had to teach children to live in this bicultural way.

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Speaker 4: And so all of a sudden, New Zealand had been

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Speaker 4: transformed from a country that practiced liberal democracy with equal

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Speaker 4: individual rights for each person to live and thrive in

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Speaker 4: their own way. Instead, we had become this compact of

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Speaker 4: two collectives defined by ancestry.

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Speaker 3: And at that point the government changed. And here we are.

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Speaker 2: I've never allowed, or nobody's ever taken such a length

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Speaker 2: of time for an opening statement, but I let your

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Speaker 2: roll because it was worthy. And even I picked up

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Speaker 2: a couple of points I was unfamiliar with. I was

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Speaker 2: of the opinion that it was Jeffrey Palmer who introduced

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Speaker 2: the partnership plot.

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Speaker 4: Well, he certainly was involved in the State and Enterprises

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Speaker 4: Act in nineteen eighty six, which was the subject of

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Speaker 4: the nineteen eighty seven Court of Appeal Act. That's the

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Speaker 4: thing I referred to with the hydroelectricity. And I know

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Speaker 4: that Palmer has been found on the record saying well,

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Speaker 4: you know, now that this has been decided by the.

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Speaker 3: Courts, that's out of reach of politicians.

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Speaker 4: I think Sir Jeffrey may have even practiced a certain

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Speaker 4: element of self loathing, and that he was always eager

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Speaker 4: for things to be dealt with by judges, lawyers and

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Speaker 4: courtrooms rather than politicians.

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Speaker 2: Well that was contagious, of course, and it continues today.

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Speaker 2: But we might get onto that a little later, although

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Speaker 2: here I am sort of touching on it. Anyway, the

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Speaker 2: assumption of different opinions some would like to call them facts,

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Speaker 2: and the operation off the back of that assumption is

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Speaker 2: something that has further got us into trouble. I feel

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Speaker 2: the assumptions haven't been arrested on birth, and so they

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Speaker 2: have grown. And I'll give you a prime example that

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Speaker 2: of a tier rower, all of a sudden, a tier

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Speaker 2: rower who came into play instead of New Zealand. And

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Speaker 2: it was first of all a tier row in New Zealand,

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Speaker 2: and it has become on frequent occasions, many occasions simply

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Speaker 2: a ti rower has replaced the name New Zealand. People

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Speaker 2: have the assumption that that's what it now is, because

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Speaker 2: it's it's been formally adopted, which it hasn't, of course,

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Speaker 2: But that is only one example of probably many.

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Speaker 4: You say, well, it's a very good example of a

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Speaker 4: change that has happened seemingly stealthily. I have to say,

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Speaker 4: of all of the things that's happened, that's probably the

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Speaker 4: one that bothers me the least. I suspect that if

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Speaker 4: you take all the politics out and just ask yourself,

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Speaker 4: if you've got two competing names, which one is likely

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Speaker 4: to succeed in the long term. And I suspect that

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Speaker 4: just natural evolution of language will tend towards favoring the

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Speaker 4: one that has got you know, an a at each

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Speaker 4: and as symmetrical has quite a nice bounce to it.

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Speaker 4: Enna's novel Versus New Zealand, which obviously is the country

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Speaker 4: I grew up I'm very proud of. But I suspect

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Speaker 4: just as a sheer question of which word will be

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Speaker 4: easier to say and outcompete the other, I suspect that

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Speaker 4: will happen anyway doesn't really bother me, except for when

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Speaker 4: people do it to prove a point, which is just irritating.

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Speaker 4: But that kind of virtures are going behavior as everywhere.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're quite right about everywhere. But by the same token,

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Speaker 2: if we're going to make a name change, and you're

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Speaker 2: probably correct when you say that it's the least important,

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Speaker 2: but nevertheless it is a prime example, as we've agreed.

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Speaker 2: So if you're going to allow things to change and

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Speaker 2: be adopted simply because of a bit of usage, but

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Speaker 2: without people speaking about it, without there being I think

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Speaker 2: there should be. If you're going to do that, it

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Speaker 2: should be a referendum, same as it was to change

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Speaker 2: the flag. Change the flag, change the name. You need

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Speaker 2: a referendum.

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't mind the idea of a referendum.

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Speaker 4: I just point out that a lot of the usage

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Speaker 4: that you're concerned about is by private companies, so you know,

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Speaker 4: Votera Phone or One New Zealand as they like to

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Speaker 4: call themselves, the phone company. You know, I'd be one

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Speaker 4: of the first to defend the rights of a private

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Speaker 4: company to practice free speech or an individual. The Olympic Committee,

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Speaker 4: you know, while it receives government funding, is not part of.

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Speaker 3: The government, and so you know, I suspect that you.

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Speaker 4: Can make the argument there should be restrictions around organizations

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Speaker 4: that use public funds. But you know, ultimately, you know

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Speaker 4: you do run into free speech issues.

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Speaker 3: Control what people call it.

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Speaker 2: This is the virtue signaling though that you just referred

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Speaker 2: to private companies who adopt it because they want to

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Speaker 2: be considered as progressive.

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Speaker 4: There's a difference between thinking someone's a bit tiresome and

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Speaker 4: using legal force against them. You know, if we decided

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Speaker 4: to lock up every tiresome virtue signaler and New Zealander josal.

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Speaker 2: Be full, well, that might be a good thing, all

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Speaker 2: right for the guards. Yes, Now let's get back to

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Speaker 2: the situation at hand, the treaty principles build. Why did

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Speaker 2: you pursue this? First of all, why did you pursue it?

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Speaker 2: And secondly why?

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Speaker 3: Now a couple of reasons why.

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Speaker 4: I believe that New Zealand has really, I think being

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Speaker 4: weakened in the last five years especially, but actually it's

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Speaker 4: been going on for a long liver map, and it's

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Speaker 4: been weakened by a local brand of identity politics. Identity

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Speaker 4: politics makes for weak people because it tells people that

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Speaker 4: they're either a victim or a villain, and their role

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Speaker 4: in society really depends on things that they have no

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Speaker 4: control over. So instead of telling children, you know, you

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Speaker 4: can be anything, but you've got to put in the effort.

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Speaker 3: We say, well, actually.

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Speaker 4: You know, you've got a big problem, or you're oppressed

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Speaker 4: or whatever because of things that happened long before you

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Speaker 4: were born. And I look around the world, lots of

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Speaker 4: countries have a version of this. It's divisive, it's disempowering,

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Speaker 4: it weakens people. And what I'd like to see as

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Speaker 4: a New Zealand based on strong people who have a

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Speaker 4: sense of freedom under the law, responsibility for their actions,

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Speaker 4: no discrimination. Now, one of the biggest impediments to doing

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Speaker 4: that in New Zealand at the moment is the set

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Speaker 4: of three D principles that set up the partnership as

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Speaker 4: I described earlier, where a person, before you know how

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Speaker 4: to deal with them, you have to know what their

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Speaker 4: ancestry is so you can work out which side of

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Speaker 4: the partnership go on and then kind of go from there.

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Speaker 4: It's very tiring, it's very divisive, it stops you getting

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Speaker 4: things done, and it actually SAPs people's attitudes and energies.

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Speaker 4: So that's the key reason is that whether it's education

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Speaker 4: and the economy, health, housing, all this transaction cost around

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Speaker 4: different roles and responsibilities, all this disempowerment that comes from

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Speaker 4: saying that your life is almost predetermined by historic events.

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Speaker 3: That's what I'm against.

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Speaker 4: And why now, Well, you know, in politics you don't

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Speaker 4: get to choose your timing.

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Speaker 3: I've campaigned for years on issues like this.

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Speaker 4: I said in my maiden speech to Parliament as a

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Speaker 4: thirty one year old and twenty fourteen that you know,

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Speaker 4: it's strange that New Zealand, which is in many ways

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Speaker 4: the freest, most equal society that has ever been created,

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Speaker 4: is now desperately trying to reverse that as rapidly as possible.

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Speaker 3: And I guess the reason for now is that I'm

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Speaker 3: in a political position to do it. I would have

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Speaker 3: liked to have done it earlier. I'm glad I didn't

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Speaker 3: have to wait later.

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Speaker 2: The reason that people are concerned about it happening now

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Speaker 2: is because we've just come out of a six year

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Speaker 2: crisis which continues. We're in very bad shape financially, people

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Speaker 2: are fleeing the country. Things aren't well, let's put it

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Speaker 2: that way. And more than one person obviously has suggested

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Speaker 2: me in one form or another that now wasn't the

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Speaker 2: time to do it, simply because we've got enough on

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Speaker 2: our plates and what we really should be doing is

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Speaker 2: concentrating on lifting the country back to somewhere near normal.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think sometimes people mix up activity

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Speaker 4: and attention, So certainly the Treaty Principles Bill has got

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Speaker 4: far more attention.

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Speaker 3: Than anything else I'm doing. I mean, you know, wall

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Speaker 3: to wall in the media.

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Speaker 4: Every day, but actually, you know, this week we're going

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Speaker 4: to announce the first charter school contracts.

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Speaker 3: We've got that policy together in record times.

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Speaker 4: We've fixed up healthy school lunchers, and we've got a

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Speaker 4: whole new plan for school boards to work on school attendance.

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Speaker 3: Now that that's just me, and that's just education.

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Speaker 4: I've also got finance, regulation, health, being in charge of

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Speaker 4: farming and so on.

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Speaker 3: And then that's just one minister.

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Speaker 4: If you go across to brook Fan Valden, look at

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Speaker 4: what she's doing with health and safety at work, and

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Speaker 4: you know, contracting provisions, a holidays Act. I could go on,

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Speaker 4: but you get the point, right, Like I've only mentioned

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Speaker 4: two ministers, and one of them only half of what

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Speaker 4: they're doing. And you know, while the Treaty Principal spills

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Speaker 4: getting a lot of attention, it's not stopping us from

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Speaker 4: addressing those other issues and almost everything I just talked

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Speaker 4: about somehow comes back to the economy.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's very good, but what the problem is is

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Speaker 2: the attention has been has come not from you so

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Speaker 2: much as from the opposition to what you're doing. Go

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Speaker 2: back to the event in Parliament the other day. Do

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Speaker 2: they have a case that could be mounted successfully?

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Speaker 4: Well, they've got one thing on their side is that

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Speaker 4: the way they would like us to live is the

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Speaker 4: way that most humans in most places, for most of

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Speaker 4: history have lived, and that is in a tribal order

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Speaker 4: where your loyalty to the leader is what matters.

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Speaker 3: You play the role that you're born into and that's

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Speaker 3: just your lot.

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Speaker 4: I on the other hand, in favor of weird people,

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Speaker 4: and by weird people, I mean Western educated, industrialized, rich

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Speaker 4: and democratic, and that's the society they live in, a

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Speaker 4: society where each individual has equal and analienable rights to

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Speaker 4: sue their dreams and in their own self chosen way.

401
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Speaker 3: So you know, that's basically the argument.

402
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Speaker 4: And they have a lot going for them because there

403
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Speaker 4: is something instinctive about that tribal way of life, and

404
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Speaker 4: you see it from people in the Mariu world, but

405
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Speaker 4: also unlimited people who email me and opposition to my bill,

406
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Speaker 4: and they always say I am a fifty six year

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Speaker 4: old Pakiha male or something like that. And what stands

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Speaker 4: out to me is that these are people who like

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Speaker 4: to identify their affiliation.

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Speaker 3: It's usually the first thing they tell me in the email.

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Speaker 4: They can't wait to tell me about their identity politics.

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Speaker 4: So certainly they've got a lot going for them, and

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Speaker 4: that they've got, you know, one hundred thousand years of

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Speaker 4: human instinct too, you know.

415
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Speaker 3: Bind and blind ourselves into tribes.

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Speaker 2: So let's turn to the legal side of it and

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Speaker 2: the courts, because the courts have something to answer for.

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Speaker 2: In the opinion of lady of people I know, including

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Speaker 2: some very good lawyers, the courts are or have become

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Speaker 2: a law unto themselves, except you're not allowed to criticize them,

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Speaker 2: or not supposedly. But the establishment of the Supreme Court

422
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Speaker 2: was just one thing, very important matter along the journey

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Speaker 2: to where we are at. And the Supreme Court has

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Speaker 2: assumed currently the rights of the ultimate decision makers over

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Speaker 2: and above even Parliament. And anybody who understands what Juju

426
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Speaker 2: said knows that the rights remain with the people as

427
00:27:57,293 --> 00:28:02,013
Speaker 2: expressed through their parliament. But the courts are behaving, shall

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Speaker 2: we say badly?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean certainly.

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Speaker 4: If you look at some of the recent decisions, for example,

431
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Speaker 4: for the David Alice case where or Peter Alis case sorry,

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Speaker 4: where they decided that takanor applied even though Alice had

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Speaker 4: no real adherence to tea Kyger in his life, was

434
00:28:24,613 --> 00:28:29,133
Speaker 4: quite extraordinary, and of course that now creates a precedent

435
00:28:29,253 --> 00:28:33,453
Speaker 4: that all lawyers have to use. If it's an available defense,

436
00:28:33,453 --> 00:28:35,413
Speaker 4: you've got a duty to give you a client the

437
00:28:35,413 --> 00:28:37,253
Speaker 4: best defense they can, so you have to be.

438
00:28:37,213 --> 00:28:39,773
Speaker 3: Aware of it. And that, I would say as an

439
00:28:39,853 --> 00:28:41,093
Speaker 3: example of how.

440
00:28:42,453 --> 00:28:45,093
Speaker 4: The court, and I'm not criticizing them for doing it.

441
00:28:45,133 --> 00:28:48,533
Speaker 4: I'm just observing what they've done because I'm not allowed

442
00:28:48,573 --> 00:28:52,693
Speaker 4: to criticize them. But they have certainly had an outsize

443
00:28:52,973 --> 00:28:56,693
Speaker 4: approach on the culture and law of New Zealand by

444
00:28:56,733 --> 00:29:01,453
Speaker 4: making that decision, Whereas I would have thought their job

445
00:29:01,573 --> 00:29:06,093
Speaker 4: was simply to work out what the what the Parliament

446
00:29:06,173 --> 00:29:10,813
Speaker 4: meant and apply it evenly unfairly to all citizens. That's

447
00:29:10,853 --> 00:29:13,333
Speaker 4: what I thought it was. But they seem to have

448
00:29:13,373 --> 00:29:16,573
Speaker 4: a much more expansive view. And I commend to people

449
00:29:17,413 --> 00:29:21,693
Speaker 4: the New Zealand Initiatives Report, who makes the laws, which

450
00:29:21,773 --> 00:29:25,253
Speaker 4: provides a set of actions a government could take to

451
00:29:25,333 --> 00:29:30,053
Speaker 4: remedy the situation, which I'm certainly encouraging people to take

452
00:29:30,133 --> 00:29:30,973
Speaker 4: up within government.

453
00:29:31,573 --> 00:29:34,853
Speaker 2: Indeed, Roger Partridge was on the podcast a few weeks

454
00:29:34,893 --> 00:29:39,893
Speaker 2: ago on precisely that. I'll also refer then to Professor

455
00:29:39,973 --> 00:29:44,653
Speaker 2: mccunnock from Walklands University. Have you been reading his recent stuff.

456
00:29:47,133 --> 00:29:51,293
Speaker 4: I have a dosage limit for Robert's writings, so in

457
00:29:51,453 --> 00:29:52,133
Speaker 4: small doses.

458
00:29:52,173 --> 00:29:55,493
Speaker 2: Yes, Well, I should ask you about Matthew Horton. Then

459
00:29:56,933 --> 00:30:00,853
Speaker 2: his most well second, the last I think or very

460
00:30:00,853 --> 00:30:04,453
Speaker 2: recent fifteen November. This has dated New Zealand's King's Councils

461
00:30:04,573 --> 00:30:08,253
Speaker 2: don't understand constitutional law and amounts a very good case.

462
00:30:08,693 --> 00:30:12,413
Speaker 2: So you've got an economist who's criticizing lawyers for not

463
00:30:12,733 --> 00:30:15,733
Speaker 2: understanding their own their own business. But I think that

464
00:30:15,773 --> 00:30:18,813
Speaker 2: he's I think that he's essentially right. There was a

465
00:30:18,813 --> 00:30:22,973
Speaker 2: second one that goes even that goes even further. But

466
00:30:23,093 --> 00:30:30,053
Speaker 2: speaking of the Institute, Roger Partridge wrote on tools to

467
00:30:30,133 --> 00:30:36,013
Speaker 2: reign in judicial overreach, which he refers really to Parliament

468
00:30:36,053 --> 00:30:40,573
Speaker 2: and Parliament taking taking charge and putting things back in order. Now,

469
00:30:40,693 --> 00:30:45,653
Speaker 2: undoubtedly that would have your consent an affirmation. Is it

470
00:30:45,733 --> 00:30:46,933
Speaker 2: blankly to happen.

471
00:30:48,733 --> 00:30:52,493
Speaker 4: Well, that's entirely up to two people, Judith Colins, the

472
00:30:52,533 --> 00:30:56,573
Speaker 4: Attorney General and Paul Goldsworth, the Minister of Justice, and

473
00:30:56,613 --> 00:30:59,053
Speaker 4: I've certainly given them my view that they should be

474
00:30:59,093 --> 00:31:02,053
Speaker 4: acting on it. But it's one of those leader horse

475
00:31:02,133 --> 00:31:04,973
Speaker 4: to water situations. I mean a minister has to want

476
00:31:05,013 --> 00:31:08,053
Speaker 4: to do with them in order for them to actually

477
00:31:08,493 --> 00:31:11,853
Speaker 4: take the additionive and make it happen. So I don't

478
00:31:11,893 --> 00:31:15,213
Speaker 4: know that those two have to decide, but they certainly

479
00:31:15,253 --> 00:31:18,293
Speaker 4: had every expression.

480
00:31:17,733 --> 00:31:18,773
Speaker 3: Of intention from me.

481
00:31:19,813 --> 00:31:23,413
Speaker 4: Unfortunately, it's not something signed up in our coalition agreement,

482
00:31:23,533 --> 00:31:27,293
Speaker 4: so everyone's just feeling their way on issues outside of that.

483
00:31:27,453 --> 00:31:30,053
Speaker 2: Well, this comes back to something we've sort of touched

484
00:31:30,093 --> 00:31:33,813
Speaker 2: on earlier on and that is strength. If things are

485
00:31:33,853 --> 00:31:37,933
Speaker 2: out of kilter in the administration of the country and

486
00:31:37,973 --> 00:31:42,533
Speaker 2: the representation of the people, then surely it's something that

487
00:31:42,573 --> 00:31:45,373
Speaker 2: should be should be dealt with with some urgency.

488
00:31:45,573 --> 00:31:51,133
Speaker 4: Well I don't disagree, but as I say, you know,

489
00:31:51,453 --> 00:31:53,413
Speaker 4: I have things I'm responsible for in government.

490
00:31:53,453 --> 00:31:55,253
Speaker 3: I do my best at those.

491
00:31:55,053 --> 00:31:59,133
Speaker 4: And if they're in a coalition agreement, I know I

492
00:31:59,213 --> 00:32:03,133
Speaker 4: argue strongly and ensure that they get done. If they're not,

493
00:32:03,333 --> 00:32:07,133
Speaker 4: then I give people as much of my free advice

494
00:32:07,173 --> 00:32:07,853
Speaker 4: as they'll take.

495
00:32:09,013 --> 00:32:12,093
Speaker 3: But ultimately they have to want to drink.

496
00:32:12,893 --> 00:32:16,093
Speaker 2: Based on the way things have shaped up, and we

497
00:32:16,133 --> 00:32:19,493
Speaker 2: had a twenty two year old in Parliament leading the revolt,

498
00:32:20,733 --> 00:32:23,933
Speaker 2: and there's plenty of others of a similar age group.

499
00:32:25,253 --> 00:32:29,973
Speaker 2: Do you think that there is a generational issue that's

500
00:32:30,013 --> 00:32:32,373
Speaker 2: involved here? Now, let me take it a step further.

501
00:32:32,813 --> 00:32:35,973
Speaker 2: When I say a generational issue, I'm talking about life experience.

502
00:32:36,773 --> 00:32:40,853
Speaker 2: I'm talking about specifically education and either the lack of

503
00:32:40,853 --> 00:32:46,333
Speaker 2: it or the incorrectness of it that has contributed to

504
00:32:46,333 --> 00:32:51,493
Speaker 2: people of a different age group from being prepared for

505
00:32:51,693 --> 00:32:55,573
Speaker 2: the decisions that they are applying themselves to based on

506
00:32:55,653 --> 00:32:59,493
Speaker 2: the fact that they are short on detail.

507
00:33:01,373 --> 00:33:03,573
Speaker 4: Look, I think there's a couple of things. I absolutely

508
00:33:03,613 --> 00:33:06,293
Speaker 4: agree with you it's generational. I think there's a couple

509
00:33:06,333 --> 00:33:10,453
Speaker 4: of things going on. One is the classical economics analysis,

510
00:33:10,493 --> 00:33:13,133
Speaker 4: if you like, and that is that if you're twenty

511
00:33:13,173 --> 00:33:17,213
Speaker 4: two and you're sitting there looking at what you're likely

512
00:33:17,253 --> 00:33:19,533
Speaker 4: to earn them the next ten years and what you

513
00:33:19,653 --> 00:33:22,973
Speaker 4: need for a deposit for a house. A lot of

514
00:33:22,973 --> 00:33:25,613
Speaker 4: people have come to a conclusion that if their parents

515
00:33:25,653 --> 00:33:27,613
Speaker 4: aren't prepared to help them, they're not going to get there,

516
00:33:27,693 --> 00:33:31,413
Speaker 4: and they're often right. And I think in some ways

517
00:33:31,453 --> 00:33:33,853
Speaker 4: the reason that the HKOI was so big, and the

518
00:33:33,933 --> 00:33:36,733
Speaker 4: reason that so many younger people are voting hard left,

519
00:33:36,773 --> 00:33:40,933
Speaker 4: and they always have, but that trend does intensify, is

520
00:33:41,013 --> 00:33:46,453
Speaker 4: partly because if the market economy that we all love

521
00:33:46,493 --> 00:33:49,333
Speaker 4: and cherish doesn't give the next generation a pathway to

522
00:33:49,373 --> 00:33:52,213
Speaker 4: their own prosperity, then they will look for other answers.

523
00:33:52,373 --> 00:33:54,973
Speaker 4: And I think that's a serious problem that we all

524
00:33:55,013 --> 00:33:57,813
Speaker 4: need to think about. And I watched Per poll Iff

525
00:33:58,013 --> 00:34:01,773
Speaker 4: in Canada, the Conservative opposition leader who.

526
00:34:01,773 --> 00:34:05,133
Speaker 3: Will almost certainly be Prime minister next year.

527
00:34:06,213 --> 00:34:10,373
Speaker 4: He is leading a very sissful campaign because he's figured

528
00:34:10,413 --> 00:34:12,693
Speaker 4: out that those young people are going to vote to

529
00:34:12,693 --> 00:34:16,013
Speaker 4: whoever gets them a house, and he's somehow managing to

530
00:34:16,053 --> 00:34:20,733
Speaker 4: carry all generations against Justin Trudeau. However, that's not the

531
00:34:20,773 --> 00:34:23,693
Speaker 4: answer that you were alluding to. I think you're alluding

532
00:34:23,733 --> 00:34:27,333
Speaker 4: to a different answer, which I also happened to support,

533
00:34:27,933 --> 00:34:32,613
Speaker 4: and that is that there's been an intellectual revolution in

534
00:34:32,693 --> 00:34:36,573
Speaker 4: the last sixty years coming out of the likes of FUCO,

535
00:34:36,813 --> 00:34:41,013
Speaker 4: the continental philosophers, the postmodern who have really switched the

536
00:34:41,093 --> 00:34:44,253
Speaker 4: world on its heads and said there is no reality,

537
00:34:45,293 --> 00:34:51,373
Speaker 4: there's just perception, and therefore the person perceiving the thing

538
00:34:51,813 --> 00:34:56,173
Speaker 4: is just as important as the thing itself. And that's

539
00:34:56,173 --> 00:34:59,893
Speaker 4: why you hear people saying I'm speaking or writing from

540
00:34:59,933 --> 00:35:04,133
Speaker 4: a blah blah blah perspective or as an identity insert

541
00:35:04,213 --> 00:35:09,373
Speaker 4: here person. I believe you've created this whole idea that

542
00:35:09,453 --> 00:35:11,693
Speaker 4: it's not what you do, but who you.

543
00:35:11,693 --> 00:35:14,693
Speaker 3: Are that matters. And I think that has.

544
00:35:14,573 --> 00:35:19,413
Speaker 4: Happened around the world, but it is mainly manifested in

545
00:35:19,493 --> 00:35:23,773
Speaker 4: New Zealand as a Mari identity. So because I'm Mari,

546
00:35:24,973 --> 00:35:28,653
Speaker 4: I have a totally different outlook on the world. That's

547
00:35:28,693 --> 00:35:33,893
Speaker 4: the most important thing about me, and therefore everything that

548
00:35:33,973 --> 00:35:35,373
Speaker 4: happens in the world has to be.

549
00:35:35,373 --> 00:35:37,933
Speaker 3: Seen through through that lens because that's.

550
00:35:37,613 --> 00:35:42,093
Speaker 4: How I look at them. That's that's become pervasive. And

551
00:35:42,773 --> 00:35:46,253
Speaker 4: of course it's the complete opposite of the basic liberal idea,

552
00:35:46,413 --> 00:35:49,853
Speaker 4: and I'm in the classical liberal idea that each of

553
00:35:49,933 --> 00:35:53,373
Speaker 4: us is a thinking and valuing being with equal rights

554
00:35:53,373 --> 00:35:56,893
Speaker 4: and dignity. There is an objective physical world, and we

555
00:35:57,013 --> 00:36:01,173
Speaker 4: can all join hands and through the scientific method study it.

556
00:36:01,373 --> 00:36:06,013
Speaker 4: That's that's the old view, but I agree postmodernism has

557
00:36:06,053 --> 00:36:11,373
Speaker 4: marched through the institutions and I think influencing a lot

558
00:36:11,733 --> 00:36:12,853
Speaker 4: of younger people's thinking.

559
00:36:14,733 --> 00:36:16,733
Speaker 2: Any suggestions how that can be corrected.

560
00:36:17,413 --> 00:36:20,053
Speaker 4: Well, on the economics of it, we've got to make

561
00:36:20,133 --> 00:36:26,013
Speaker 4: markets work, so there's genuine economic opportunity, I think. On

562
00:36:26,333 --> 00:36:30,693
Speaker 4: the more philosophical side, I mean, first of all, you know,

563
00:36:30,773 --> 00:36:34,253
Speaker 4: it's always better to fight something that you can name.

564
00:36:34,813 --> 00:36:38,413
Speaker 4: Once you've identified the problem and put a name on it,

565
00:36:38,413 --> 00:36:41,373
Speaker 4: it's much easier to fight. And then you've got to

566
00:36:41,413 --> 00:36:44,573
Speaker 4: start pointing out to people the virtues of the enlightenment

567
00:36:44,693 --> 00:36:47,853
Speaker 4: that you know, people want to say that Marie life

568
00:36:47,933 --> 00:36:52,173
Speaker 4: expectancy on average is shorter than European I just make

569
00:36:52,213 --> 00:36:57,613
Speaker 4: a few observations about that. Number One, everyone's life expectancy

570
00:36:57,613 --> 00:36:59,533
Speaker 4: in New Zealand is about twice what it was two

571
00:36:59,613 --> 00:37:05,573
Speaker 4: hundred years ago. Number two, why do you start by

572
00:37:05,613 --> 00:37:09,253
Speaker 4: grouping people into ethnicities in the first place. Number three,

573
00:37:09,293 --> 00:37:11,613
Speaker 4: If you're going to group people by ethnicity, well I

574
00:37:11,653 --> 00:37:14,893
Speaker 4: think that's pretty odious. But how do you explain Asians

575
00:37:14,933 --> 00:37:17,333
Speaker 4: living longer on average? Is the answer that they're all

576
00:37:17,693 --> 00:37:21,453
Speaker 4: racially oppressing white people who don't live as long as them.

577
00:37:21,853 --> 00:37:24,493
Speaker 4: You know, you quickly get into absurdities when you play

578
00:37:24,493 --> 00:37:28,453
Speaker 4: this identity politics game. What would be better is to say,

579
00:37:28,893 --> 00:37:32,493
Speaker 4: on the basis of good science and technology, we can

580
00:37:32,573 --> 00:37:36,813
Speaker 4: overcome our problems and all of us can live even longer.

581
00:37:37,413 --> 00:37:40,453
Speaker 2: The situation in New Zealand at the moment, aside from

582
00:37:40,493 --> 00:37:45,133
Speaker 2: what we started out discussing, is to you how serious.

583
00:37:46,613 --> 00:37:51,053
Speaker 4: Well, I think that there's always been a danger that

584
00:37:51,293 --> 00:37:54,373
Speaker 4: New Zealand will go the way of most places that

585
00:37:54,453 --> 00:37:56,773
Speaker 4: look like us on a map. So if you look

586
00:37:56,813 --> 00:37:59,693
Speaker 4: at the globe and you look for places with nice beaches,

587
00:37:59,773 --> 00:38:03,533
Speaker 4: nice weather, nice people, and a bit of isolation. You

588
00:38:03,653 --> 00:38:06,813
Speaker 4: get to the g you get to Cuba, you get

589
00:38:06,853 --> 00:38:11,173
Speaker 4: to Greece, you get to Jamaica, all kind of nice

590
00:38:11,213 --> 00:38:17,373
Speaker 4: places to go, but ultimately, you know, not somewhere you'd

591
00:38:17,373 --> 00:38:19,493
Speaker 4: want to live your whole life if you had a choice.

592
00:38:19,973 --> 00:38:24,893
Speaker 4: And I think we're, you know, in real danger that

593
00:38:24,973 --> 00:38:28,893
Speaker 4: this she'll be right attitude will become the majority, especially

594
00:38:28,893 --> 00:38:31,733
Speaker 4: with a number of people leaving at the moment and

595
00:38:32,013 --> 00:38:36,173
Speaker 4: who have already left, that we will actually kind of

596
00:38:36,213 --> 00:38:38,093
Speaker 4: become permanently second World.

597
00:38:38,613 --> 00:38:40,453
Speaker 3: I think that's a very real danger for.

598
00:38:40,413 --> 00:38:42,893
Speaker 2: New Zealand right now, and you'd you'd fix it.

599
00:38:42,813 --> 00:38:46,933
Speaker 3: By well, you can only fix it by but.

600
00:38:46,933 --> 00:38:49,413
Speaker 2: If you But if you were let's say you're let's

601
00:38:49,453 --> 00:38:55,373
Speaker 2: say you were one of those leaders of strength that

602
00:38:55,493 --> 00:38:59,693
Speaker 2: the world is sadly lacking. Hello, they've done pretty well

603
00:38:59,733 --> 00:39:03,773
Speaker 2: in one big country at the moment. What would you

604
00:39:04,053 --> 00:39:06,533
Speaker 2: if you were in a position to what would you

605
00:39:06,573 --> 00:39:07,893
Speaker 2: what would you not be?

606
00:39:08,813 --> 00:39:12,173
Speaker 4: Well, first of all, would put in place a mantra

607
00:39:12,293 --> 00:39:15,893
Speaker 4: that everything we do is about strong people, people who

608
00:39:15,933 --> 00:39:19,653
Speaker 4: are able to take responsibility for their actions to solve

609
00:39:19,693 --> 00:39:23,293
Speaker 4: their problems, so long as they provided a platform of

610
00:39:23,533 --> 00:39:29,253
Speaker 4: equality before the law and basic education and public safety

611
00:39:29,813 --> 00:39:33,093
Speaker 4: and infrastructure and services that work. So it's a deal

612
00:39:33,173 --> 00:39:38,373
Speaker 4: between the government and the citizenry, and non discrimination is

613
00:39:38,413 --> 00:39:41,973
Speaker 4: at the heart of that deal. Then you said about saying, okay,

614
00:39:42,933 --> 00:39:48,813
Speaker 4: how is it possible that we spend about three hundred

615
00:39:48,853 --> 00:39:54,533
Speaker 4: and fifty thousand dollars per citizen on education and yet

616
00:39:55,173 --> 00:39:58,573
Speaker 4: so many come out illiterate. So you've got to completely

617
00:39:58,613 --> 00:40:03,013
Speaker 4: shake that up, and it would look something like, here's

618
00:40:03,053 --> 00:40:05,853
Speaker 4: your account at the time you're born. The money drops

619
00:40:05,893 --> 00:40:07,973
Speaker 4: into it, and you can use it to purchase the

620
00:40:07,973 --> 00:40:11,693
Speaker 4: service as you require, just like wealthy people do. Would

621
00:40:11,693 --> 00:40:14,653
Speaker 4: effectively give poor people the same opportunities as wealthy people,

622
00:40:14,693 --> 00:40:18,253
Speaker 4: and we'd bring a lot of entrepreneurship into education. We'd

623
00:40:18,293 --> 00:40:20,813
Speaker 4: do something similar with health. We'd say thirty billion dollar

624
00:40:20,853 --> 00:40:25,133
Speaker 4: health budget. That's six thousand dollars per citizen, and people

625
00:40:25,133 --> 00:40:29,013
Speaker 4: are getting bigger or quality out of that. So you

626
00:40:29,013 --> 00:40:31,053
Speaker 4: can either stay in the system or you can take

627
00:40:31,053 --> 00:40:33,893
Speaker 4: your six grand to Southern Cross or NIB and I

628
00:40:34,013 --> 00:40:37,253
Speaker 4: guarantee you that they'll start solving problems and becoming more efficient.

629
00:40:38,213 --> 00:40:41,493
Speaker 4: So major reforms and social services that are just not

630
00:40:41,613 --> 00:40:44,213
Speaker 4: working despite huge amounts of money.

631
00:40:44,253 --> 00:40:47,493
Speaker 3: And major reform and regulation, which in.

632
00:40:47,453 --> 00:40:50,213
Speaker 4: Fairness, we are starting to do, but I'd do it

633
00:40:50,253 --> 00:40:53,093
Speaker 4: a lot more aggressively and across government. I just say, right,

634
00:40:53,213 --> 00:40:57,133
Speaker 4: we are applying these principles straight away. If it doesn't

635
00:40:57,173 --> 00:41:02,133
Speaker 4: solve a well defined problem with benefits that exceed the costs,

636
00:41:02,173 --> 00:41:03,933
Speaker 4: then this regulation is gone.

637
00:41:04,453 --> 00:41:06,533
Speaker 3: We're doing that, but on a smaller scale than i'd like.

638
00:41:06,933 --> 00:41:11,253
Speaker 2: Okay, so what you would like is at the moment

639
00:41:11,413 --> 00:41:14,373
Speaker 2: is for your bill to be approved and to go ahead.

640
00:41:14,893 --> 00:41:19,733
Speaker 2: It's got six months before the committee what goes now

641
00:41:19,853 --> 00:41:20,573
Speaker 2: what happens.

642
00:41:22,013 --> 00:41:25,693
Speaker 4: So from now until the seventh of January, they are

643
00:41:25,733 --> 00:41:28,533
Speaker 4: accepting public submissions, so you can find that on the

644
00:41:28,573 --> 00:41:31,613
Speaker 4: Parliament website and it's well worth doing.

645
00:41:31,613 --> 00:41:33,693
Speaker 3: If you'd like a sort of an entry point to it.

646
00:41:34,333 --> 00:41:37,213
Speaker 4: We've set up our own site at Treaty dot n

647
00:41:37,333 --> 00:41:39,453
Speaker 4: z where we have the bill, our case for it

648
00:41:39,493 --> 00:41:40,893
Speaker 4: and helps you make submissions, So.

649
00:41:42,533 --> 00:41:44,333
Speaker 3: Www dot Treaty dot z.

650
00:41:45,813 --> 00:41:48,933
Speaker 4: The Select Committee will then hear some of the people

651
00:41:48,973 --> 00:41:53,093
Speaker 4: in person making their submissions.

652
00:41:51,773 --> 00:41:53,013
Speaker 3: Through January February.

653
00:41:53,453 --> 00:41:58,133
Speaker 4: They'll then deliberate, they'll write a report and they'll report

654
00:41:58,173 --> 00:42:02,693
Speaker 4: that back to Parliament and at that point, for the

655
00:42:02,693 --> 00:42:05,293
Speaker 4: first time, we would have had a genuine democratic process

656
00:42:05,333 --> 00:42:10,413
Speaker 4: about what the treaty means. At that point, the other

657
00:42:10,493 --> 00:42:13,213
Speaker 4: parties will have to decide do they actually want to

658
00:42:13,333 --> 00:42:17,293
Speaker 4: bring it up again, debate it and vote it down.

659
00:42:17,613 --> 00:42:21,093
Speaker 4: I suspect they won't. I suspect they'll just leave it

660
00:42:21,213 --> 00:42:23,893
Speaker 4: languishing on the order paper like the Kermit Eccentury Bill.

661
00:42:24,813 --> 00:42:28,013
Speaker 4: Or they might do they might bring it up and

662
00:42:28,093 --> 00:42:30,893
Speaker 4: vote on it. And you've got to assume that you

663
00:42:30,973 --> 00:42:33,133
Speaker 4: know what they're saying is true, that they'll vote against it,

664
00:42:33,173 --> 00:42:36,533
Speaker 4: although I don't think they've heard quite what the public

665
00:42:36,573 --> 00:42:38,893
Speaker 4: think about this issue yet and that could still change

666
00:42:38,933 --> 00:42:44,253
Speaker 4: their mind. And at that point, you know, even if

667
00:42:44,253 --> 00:42:46,733
Speaker 4: it's even if it doesn't go further than that, what

668
00:42:46,773 --> 00:42:50,213
Speaker 4: we will have achieved is normalizing two ideas. The first

669
00:42:50,253 --> 00:42:52,573
Speaker 4: is that the treaty gives us equal rights, and the

670
00:42:52,613 --> 00:42:54,333
Speaker 4: second is we have an equal right to have a

671
00:42:54,373 --> 00:42:58,893
Speaker 4: say on what the treaty means. And those two ideas,

672
00:42:58,613 --> 00:43:01,733
Speaker 4: that's what our opponents are trying to keep out of circulation.

673
00:43:02,253 --> 00:43:04,373
Speaker 4: But it's too late for them.

674
00:43:04,893 --> 00:43:11,733
Speaker 2: I received this question from overseas actually wondering whether David

675
00:43:11,773 --> 00:43:16,933
Speaker 2: Seymour might an act, might be prepared to take the

676
00:43:16,973 --> 00:43:17,773
Speaker 2: government down.

677
00:43:21,733 --> 00:43:25,373
Speaker 4: Well, not on not on the Treaty Principal's Bill, because

678
00:43:26,013 --> 00:43:31,613
Speaker 4: you know, partners have honored their obligations under the bill,

679
00:43:33,813 --> 00:43:37,533
Speaker 4: and you know that's that's all we can ask from them.

680
00:43:37,613 --> 00:43:40,733
Speaker 4: So we've got it as far as we could negotiate

681
00:43:40,813 --> 00:43:44,173
Speaker 4: this time, and unless they do something really crazy in

682
00:43:44,173 --> 00:43:47,213
Speaker 4: the next six months, then that's I've done their duty.

683
00:43:48,613 --> 00:43:50,053
Speaker 3: In terms of the.

684
00:43:52,013 --> 00:43:55,333
Speaker 4: Wider issues, Look, I think what New Zealand needs at

685
00:43:55,333 --> 00:43:57,613
Speaker 4: the moment is a government that's saving money.

686
00:43:57,333 --> 00:43:59,733
Speaker 3: Cutting red tape and.

687
00:43:59,573 --> 00:44:02,773
Speaker 4: Trying to get the economy a bit more buoyant again,

688
00:44:02,813 --> 00:44:04,853
Speaker 4: because man, it's tough for people out there right now.

689
00:44:04,933 --> 00:44:08,093
Speaker 2: It is, so how successful is the government at the moment?

690
00:44:09,293 --> 00:44:11,693
Speaker 4: Look, I think the government's done two things that are

691
00:44:11,733 --> 00:44:15,173
Speaker 4: really important. One is that it's proven it can hang together.

692
00:44:15,253 --> 00:44:17,973
Speaker 4: A lot of people were skeptical about the nature of

693
00:44:18,013 --> 00:44:21,813
Speaker 4: the coalition, but actually it's very robust and it has

694
00:44:21,853 --> 00:44:25,013
Speaker 4: been a very stable government despite what our opponents hoped for.

695
00:44:25,813 --> 00:44:28,933
Speaker 4: The second thing that it's done is that it has

696
00:44:29,333 --> 00:44:34,533
Speaker 4: unleashed a series of cost cutting and deregulation initiatives, not

697
00:44:34,613 --> 00:44:37,053
Speaker 4: as big as ACTS would like, but you know, I'm

698
00:44:37,053 --> 00:44:39,253
Speaker 4: proud to say that Actors has contributed.

699
00:44:39,293 --> 00:44:41,013
Speaker 3: It made it better than it would otherwise be.

700
00:44:41,213 --> 00:44:45,813
Speaker 4: So resource management Acts being replaced, not just fast tracked,

701
00:44:45,853 --> 00:44:50,373
Speaker 4: it's been completely replaced. Government spending, we're down about six

702
00:44:50,413 --> 00:44:53,933
Speaker 4: thousand public servants so far. I would have gone further,

703
00:44:54,013 --> 00:44:56,773
Speaker 4: but you know, police with a contribution we've made to

704
00:44:56,773 --> 00:45:00,893
Speaker 4: getting the size of governor under control. Little things, relatively minor,

705
00:45:00,933 --> 00:45:03,973
Speaker 4: things like healthy school lunches was going to cost three

706
00:45:04,053 --> 00:45:05,013
Speaker 4: hundred and forty million.

707
00:45:05,053 --> 00:45:06,573
Speaker 3: We got it down to one hundred and seventy.

708
00:45:06,733 --> 00:45:07,693
Speaker 2: So how did you do that?

709
00:45:07,853 --> 00:45:09,973
Speaker 3: You know, Well, we.

710
00:45:09,933 --> 00:45:12,613
Speaker 4: Looked at it and we noticed that they had about

711
00:45:12,613 --> 00:45:17,653
Speaker 4: one hundred and fifty small scale providers. And you know,

712
00:45:17,773 --> 00:45:19,253
Speaker 4: while my heart goes out to a lot of our

713
00:45:19,333 --> 00:45:23,293
Speaker 4: small business people, nobody would design a system like that.

714
00:45:23,333 --> 00:45:24,173
Speaker 3: In the first place.

715
00:45:25,533 --> 00:45:29,573
Speaker 4: We've got one provider who buys in bulk eighteen tons

716
00:45:29,573 --> 00:45:33,293
Speaker 4: of chicken every two weeks. And when you buy eighteen

717
00:45:33,413 --> 00:45:35,613
Speaker 4: tons of chicken every two weeks, I'm told you get

718
00:45:35,653 --> 00:45:38,853
Speaker 4: a considerable discount. In fact, they actually grow them to

719
00:45:38,933 --> 00:45:40,413
Speaker 4: order when you're that science customer.

720
00:45:40,653 --> 00:45:40,973
Speaker 2: Wow.

721
00:45:41,613 --> 00:45:44,973
Speaker 4: So you know, whereas the previous guys in some cases

722
00:45:44,973 --> 00:45:48,493
Speaker 4: they were going to the supermarket and buying a single chicken, Well, Dot.

723
00:45:48,933 --> 00:45:50,373
Speaker 3: You don't get a discount that way.

724
00:45:51,373 --> 00:45:54,773
Speaker 4: So yeah, there's a few things we've done that have

725
00:45:54,973 --> 00:45:57,413
Speaker 4: just made just made sense and the way that a

726
00:45:57,453 --> 00:45:58,253
Speaker 4: business would.

727
00:45:58,013 --> 00:46:00,093
Speaker 3: Do it if they had the same problem. So anyway,

728
00:46:00,093 --> 00:46:01,213
Speaker 3: that's way off track.

729
00:46:01,293 --> 00:46:04,653
Speaker 4: But my point is that, you know, in terms of

730
00:46:04,773 --> 00:46:08,853
Speaker 4: deregulating and cutting government waste, I think that we you know,

731
00:46:08,973 --> 00:46:11,453
Speaker 4: we've been pretty successful so far, and there's a lot

732
00:46:11,493 --> 00:46:11,933
Speaker 4: more to come.

733
00:46:13,013 --> 00:46:15,053
Speaker 2: I do want to before we finish. I do want

734
00:46:15,053 --> 00:46:16,893
Speaker 2: to go back and cover a couple of things that

735
00:46:18,853 --> 00:46:23,293
Speaker 2: have bypassed us to this particular point. When the Waitangi

736
00:46:23,373 --> 00:46:28,053
Speaker 2: Act came in in the eighties, it was no hang on,

737
00:46:28,093 --> 00:46:31,333
Speaker 2: I'm talking about I'm talking about the nineties, sorry, when

738
00:46:31,813 --> 00:46:36,413
Speaker 2: when m MP was being debated, it was it was

739
00:46:37,053 --> 00:46:41,453
Speaker 2: suggested very strongly that if we adopted m MP, then

740
00:46:41,493 --> 00:46:45,133
Speaker 2: the Mary Streets, the married seats should should be dispensed with,

741
00:46:46,053 --> 00:46:50,693
Speaker 2: which was eminently sensible. They weren't. Now there is a

742
00:46:50,733 --> 00:46:54,093
Speaker 2: suggestion that there should be more Marory seats because they're

743
00:46:54,093 --> 00:46:56,693
Speaker 2: not being represented enough. Now that's a myth as far

744
00:46:56,733 --> 00:46:59,213
Speaker 2: as I'm concerned, but that's what the that's what the

745
00:46:59,773 --> 00:47:03,893
Speaker 2: claim seems to be. Is it too late to dispose

746
00:47:03,973 --> 00:47:04,933
Speaker 2: of Mary seats?

747
00:47:05,613 --> 00:47:07,933
Speaker 3: Well, technically it could be done very easily.

748
00:47:08,453 --> 00:47:11,693
Speaker 4: Government would have to come in and either get three

749
00:47:11,773 --> 00:47:15,333
Speaker 4: quarters off the Parliament to vote against the Marrow seats

750
00:47:15,493 --> 00:47:20,493
Speaker 4: or take a bill to referendum and have a simple

751
00:47:20,533 --> 00:47:23,813
Speaker 4: majority of the public vote against them. That's what would

752
00:47:23,853 --> 00:47:26,653
Speaker 4: have to happen. And I think there's some attraction to

753
00:47:26,773 --> 00:47:30,373
Speaker 4: it because if you look at probably the most worrying

754
00:47:30,413 --> 00:47:33,453
Speaker 4: event of the last two weeks was the fact that

755
00:47:33,493 --> 00:47:40,333
Speaker 4: the Labor Party actually voted against suspending Hannah maypit Clark,

756
00:47:41,173 --> 00:47:45,613
Speaker 4: and they actually undermined the Speaker when he tried to

757
00:47:45,653 --> 00:47:50,893
Speaker 4: suspend her for her performance a couple of weeks back.

758
00:47:51,573 --> 00:47:55,333
Speaker 4: Now that tells you something about the Labor Party. They

759
00:47:55,373 --> 00:48:00,133
Speaker 4: don't know where they are, but I suspect it's partly

760
00:48:00,213 --> 00:48:03,773
Speaker 4: because they hope to one day win back the Mara

761
00:48:03,893 --> 00:48:08,933
Speaker 4: seats and so those seats are actually distorting just about

762
00:48:08,933 --> 00:48:11,413
Speaker 4: all of New Zealand politics as a result, and that

763
00:48:11,413 --> 00:48:13,213
Speaker 4: that is I think really worrying.

764
00:48:13,613 --> 00:48:15,453
Speaker 3: So I'm very worried.

765
00:48:15,253 --> 00:48:21,413
Speaker 4: About that has the concerning the only question is, you know,

766
00:48:21,533 --> 00:48:24,373
Speaker 4: are you going to get a majority in Parliament to

767
00:48:24,373 --> 00:48:27,053
Speaker 4: get rid of them? And at the moment you'd never

768
00:48:27,093 --> 00:48:30,053
Speaker 4: get it from the National Party. You might get it

769
00:48:30,093 --> 00:48:32,853
Speaker 4: from New Zealand. First of all, I'm not sure. So

770
00:48:33,413 --> 00:48:34,973
Speaker 4: you know, I think ACT is the only party that

771
00:48:35,253 --> 00:48:36,533
Speaker 4: has a policy of getting rid of.

772
00:48:36,533 --> 00:48:40,933
Speaker 2: Them if there is enough representation. That's a strong representation,

773
00:48:41,013 --> 00:48:45,013
Speaker 2: shall we say, at at the hearings upcoming, do you

774
00:48:45,093 --> 00:48:49,173
Speaker 2: think that that could have an effect on the outcome?

775
00:48:51,293 --> 00:48:51,493
Speaker 1: Yeah?

776
00:48:51,533 --> 00:48:54,813
Speaker 4: I do, because the people who are opposed to the

777
00:48:54,813 --> 00:48:58,213
Speaker 4: bill have a certain set of assumptions. They have assumptions

778
00:48:58,253 --> 00:49:01,133
Speaker 4: about the bill, and they have assumptions about the reaction

779
00:49:01,293 --> 00:49:04,373
Speaker 4: to it. So they assume that, you know, it's going

780
00:49:04,413 --> 00:49:08,213
Speaker 4: to somehow change the treaty. You know, a lot of Mari,

781
00:49:08,413 --> 00:49:10,333
Speaker 4: lot of young Maria being told it will take away

782
00:49:10,373 --> 00:49:12,133
Speaker 4: their money, take away their language.

783
00:49:12,613 --> 00:49:13,853
Speaker 3: That's completely untrue.

784
00:49:14,093 --> 00:49:16,653
Speaker 4: People have been told it will undermine treaty settlements. That's

785
00:49:16,733 --> 00:49:20,213
Speaker 4: completely untrue. So what it does to is give everyone

786
00:49:20,253 --> 00:49:22,733
Speaker 4: equal rights. And you know, every time someone goes to

787
00:49:22,773 --> 00:49:25,973
Speaker 4: Treaty dot m Z and reads what it actually says, though,

788
00:49:26,053 --> 00:49:27,893
Speaker 4: so I can't see what all the fuss is about.

789
00:49:27,973 --> 00:49:32,173
Speaker 4: This is eminently sensible. So there's the content of the bill.

790
00:49:32,773 --> 00:49:35,773
Speaker 4: But then there's also as more people have that experience

791
00:49:35,813 --> 00:49:40,493
Speaker 4: their response to it, you know, as people start to

792
00:49:40,533 --> 00:49:43,653
Speaker 4: think about what's really been talked about here, then they

793
00:49:43,893 --> 00:49:47,093
Speaker 4: tend to change their mind. And I suspect that, you know,

794
00:49:47,133 --> 00:49:50,173
Speaker 4: in the court of public opinion, that might be the

795
00:49:50,253 --> 00:49:53,893
Speaker 4: thing that sways some of my colleagues in Parliament to

796
00:49:53,973 --> 00:49:54,773
Speaker 4: change their vote.

797
00:49:55,973 --> 00:49:58,333
Speaker 2: I don't know whether you've given it any thought, but

798
00:49:58,373 --> 00:50:00,613
Speaker 2: it's occurred to me that there are things going on

799
00:50:00,853 --> 00:50:06,933
Speaker 2: here that parallel to some degree what's just gone on

800
00:50:07,013 --> 00:50:11,333
Speaker 2: in the United States. Just I'm talking specifically of the opposition,

801
00:50:12,813 --> 00:50:16,693
Speaker 2: the same sort of the same sort of indoctrination is

802
00:50:16,933 --> 00:50:21,053
Speaker 2: showing itself. I wonder if, just finally, you would have

803
00:50:21,453 --> 00:50:24,293
Speaker 2: any comment to make on what you will But I'm

804
00:50:24,293 --> 00:50:27,213
Speaker 2: interested in your comment to make on what I'm about

805
00:50:27,213 --> 00:50:33,413
Speaker 2: to say. Imagine this as a newspaper or an online article.

806
00:50:34,733 --> 00:50:37,453
Speaker 2: MMP is threatening democracy.

807
00:50:37,573 --> 00:50:39,093
Speaker 3: And how do they reason that?

808
00:50:39,533 --> 00:50:43,933
Speaker 2: Well, some of what some of what we've discussed tends

809
00:50:43,973 --> 00:50:48,813
Speaker 2: in that direction that MMP is go back to the

810
00:50:49,253 --> 00:50:52,693
Speaker 2: what amounted really to an instruction if MMP is introduced,

811
00:50:52,733 --> 00:50:57,173
Speaker 2: the marriage seats should go. So you've now got MMP

812
00:50:57,453 --> 00:51:03,333
Speaker 2: with various various political attitudes, and you've got one party

813
00:51:03,373 --> 00:51:07,933
Speaker 2: in particulars based on race that is causing havoc and

814
00:51:08,093 --> 00:51:13,053
Speaker 2: very likely will cause more havoc. And therefore democracy itself

815
00:51:13,773 --> 00:51:17,013
Speaker 2: is under is under some sort of threat, if for

816
00:51:17,053 --> 00:51:23,453
Speaker 2: no other reason, then because of self censorship that this

817
00:51:23,573 --> 00:51:28,053
Speaker 2: other approach brings, as in freedom of speech, where people

818
00:51:28,173 --> 00:51:30,333
Speaker 2: self censor because they don't want they don't want to

819
00:51:30,653 --> 00:51:32,373
Speaker 2: they don't want to be accused of this and that

820
00:51:32,493 --> 00:51:35,293
Speaker 2: and something else, and so they don't speak up and

821
00:51:35,333 --> 00:51:38,173
Speaker 2: they just shut up. And the same thing is, as

822
00:51:38,173 --> 00:51:42,213
Speaker 2: far as I'm aware or concerned, is happening, as far

823
00:51:42,253 --> 00:51:46,213
Speaker 2: as some politicians are concerned. Don't want to rock the boat.

824
00:51:46,573 --> 00:51:48,373
Speaker 2: Don't we want to get we want to get in

825
00:51:48,373 --> 00:51:50,693
Speaker 2: into the next election. We don't make a stand. It's

826
00:51:50,733 --> 00:51:55,693
Speaker 2: been going on for parliament after parliament. Now it's worse

827
00:51:55,733 --> 00:51:56,453
Speaker 2: than ever. I think.

828
00:51:57,533 --> 00:52:00,413
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, first of all, I give you my allibi.

829
00:52:01,293 --> 00:52:05,053
Speaker 4: I was in Standard three when MMP came in, so

830
00:52:06,853 --> 00:52:11,093
Speaker 4: I have no responsibility for this. And I know there

831
00:52:11,093 --> 00:52:13,293
Speaker 4: will be people say, well, you like MMP because that

832
00:52:13,413 --> 00:52:17,133
Speaker 4: benefits from it. Well not really, I mean actors in

833
00:52:17,173 --> 00:52:21,293
Speaker 4: parliament because of MMP. But I guess if it wasn't

834
00:52:21,373 --> 00:52:24,213
Speaker 4: for MMP, then maybe you wouldn't need an act party.

835
00:52:24,293 --> 00:52:28,213
Speaker 4: I mean, I suspect that on balance we are better

836
00:52:28,253 --> 00:52:31,373
Speaker 4: off because you know, people just have to look at

837
00:52:31,413 --> 00:52:36,133
Speaker 4: how badly governed New Zealand was prior to the nineteen nineties.

838
00:52:36,213 --> 00:52:39,453
Speaker 4: So we almost went completely broke in the eighties and

839
00:52:40,253 --> 00:52:46,053
Speaker 4: you know, managed to really squander the enormous resource and

840
00:52:46,133 --> 00:52:49,213
Speaker 4: agrarian wealth that the country was initially built on through

841
00:52:49,213 --> 00:52:52,853
Speaker 4: bad governance. So you know, I think it's always important

842
00:52:52,853 --> 00:52:57,173
Speaker 4: to remember that all voting systems suck, and the one

843
00:52:57,173 --> 00:52:59,413
Speaker 4: that we had before had a whole bunch of problems

844
00:52:59,413 --> 00:53:03,293
Speaker 4: with it too. But the issues you're really talking about

845
00:53:03,533 --> 00:53:05,973
Speaker 4: I think could exist in any voting system. I mean,

846
00:53:05,973 --> 00:53:10,573
Speaker 4: the fact is that you know, you've got identity politics,

847
00:53:10,573 --> 00:53:11,613
Speaker 4: which has swept the world.

848
00:53:11,653 --> 00:53:14,173
Speaker 3: I'd like to think it's now in decline or retreat.

849
00:53:14,813 --> 00:53:19,733
Speaker 4: And you've got people who you know, basically have grown

850
00:53:19,813 --> 00:53:25,173
Speaker 4: up to disrespect what they regard as a colonizing parliament,

851
00:53:25,533 --> 00:53:29,853
Speaker 4: as a Western European parliament, not a not a parliament

852
00:53:29,893 --> 00:53:34,133
Speaker 4: of all people in New Zealand, and that problem you know, Yes,

853
00:53:34,253 --> 00:53:38,053
Speaker 4: they got elected through the MARI seats. That's one reason

854
00:53:38,093 --> 00:53:41,373
Speaker 4: why you know, maybe you shouldn't have seats based on ethnicity,

855
00:53:41,413 --> 00:53:44,573
Speaker 4: because you end up with politics based on ethnicity. But

856
00:53:44,613 --> 00:53:47,053
Speaker 4: that's sort of an issue with MMP, that's an issue

857
00:53:47,053 --> 00:53:48,293
Speaker 4: with the mar seats.

858
00:53:48,573 --> 00:53:50,773
Speaker 2: And that is where we shall leave it, unless there

859
00:53:50,853 --> 00:53:53,693
Speaker 2: is anything else you'd like to add, Only that I.

860
00:53:53,653 --> 00:53:56,133
Speaker 3: Look forward to a day when we will look back.

861
00:53:56,213 --> 00:53:57,693
Speaker 3: I believe if my bill.

862
00:53:57,493 --> 00:54:00,093
Speaker 4: Doesn't pass this time, it will same time in the future,

863
00:54:00,733 --> 00:54:03,333
Speaker 4: and we'll look back and say, well that the treaty

864
00:54:03,373 --> 00:54:05,533
Speaker 4: is not a bad document if you actually read it.

865
00:54:06,293 --> 00:54:08,773
Speaker 4: But man, it's a pity we have to waste fifty

866
00:54:08,853 --> 00:54:12,733
Speaker 4: years being led down rabbit holes by lawyers, judges, and

867
00:54:12,773 --> 00:54:16,413
Speaker 4: tribunalists who tried to tell us that the best way

868
00:54:16,493 --> 00:54:19,973
Speaker 4: to live as a country was divided into two groups

869
00:54:20,013 --> 00:54:23,893
Speaker 4: based on ancestry, with different rights based on who your

870
00:54:23,933 --> 00:54:24,973
Speaker 4: forefathers were.

871
00:54:26,293 --> 00:54:28,213
Speaker 3: Man, good thing we got.

872
00:54:28,053 --> 00:54:30,293
Speaker 4: Rid of that and now we just live as a liberal,

873
00:54:30,333 --> 00:54:35,493
Speaker 4: democratic society with equal and universal human rights for all.

874
00:54:36,613 --> 00:54:38,413
Speaker 3: That's how I believe we will look back on this

875
00:54:38,533 --> 00:54:39,413
Speaker 3: at some point.

876
00:54:39,453 --> 00:54:42,733
Speaker 2: So for those people, and there will be some maybe

877
00:54:42,773 --> 00:54:45,773
Speaker 2: a lot for those people who are listening to this

878
00:54:45,933 --> 00:54:50,453
Speaker 2: now and thinking, well, what can I do? What would

879
00:54:50,573 --> 00:54:54,133
Speaker 2: be your suggestion, what can I do? What can we do?

880
00:54:55,573 --> 00:54:58,293
Speaker 4: Well, I would say, read and submit the bill, and

881
00:54:58,333 --> 00:55:01,133
Speaker 4: we've set up a website to do this. The deadline's

882
00:55:01,213 --> 00:55:05,333
Speaker 4: January seventh. But you know, Treaty dot m Z allows

883
00:55:05,373 --> 00:55:09,133
Speaker 4: you to do that, and you know, make your voice heard,

884
00:55:09,213 --> 00:55:11,853
Speaker 4: because that's what's truly made this controversial is the idea

885
00:55:11,853 --> 00:55:14,293
Speaker 4: that all people's voices will be heard. And you may

886
00:55:14,333 --> 00:55:16,813
Speaker 4: be listening to this, You may be someone who disagrees

887
00:55:16,853 --> 00:55:20,333
Speaker 4: with me, you should still submit. What's really important is

888
00:55:20,373 --> 00:55:23,253
Speaker 4: that you know, we have a debate on these principles

889
00:55:23,253 --> 00:55:25,493
Speaker 4: that governor has the right to govern, governor has a

890
00:55:25,573 --> 00:55:29,213
Speaker 4: duty to protect people's rights, and that all of those

891
00:55:29,293 --> 00:55:30,653
Speaker 4: rights are equal before the law.

892
00:55:31,933 --> 00:55:33,733
Speaker 3: That's that's all this bill is about.

893
00:55:34,093 --> 00:55:36,733
Speaker 4: And if you believe in that, or if you question it,

894
00:55:37,213 --> 00:55:39,653
Speaker 4: then you get along to treaty dot ins and go

895
00:55:39,733 --> 00:55:40,373
Speaker 4: for a submission.

896
00:55:40,373 --> 00:55:42,973
Speaker 2: We'd love you to do so, well said, And of

897
00:55:42,973 --> 00:55:44,413
Speaker 2: course it gave me a moment to come up with

898
00:55:44,493 --> 00:55:48,893
Speaker 2: one last, real last question. You become Deputy Prime Minister

899
00:55:49,013 --> 00:55:51,533
Speaker 2: in the not too distant future, what difference will that

900
00:55:51,613 --> 00:55:55,453
Speaker 2: make a to you be, to what you do and

901
00:55:55,493 --> 00:55:57,493
Speaker 2: c to any outcome.

902
00:55:59,853 --> 00:56:03,053
Speaker 3: At a practical level, it won't make a lot of difference.

903
00:56:03,413 --> 00:56:05,013
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, at the moment it's once that

904
00:56:05,213 --> 00:56:08,693
Speaker 4: we both said in capnot and you know part really

905
00:56:08,733 --> 00:56:11,213
Speaker 4: comes from the parties that we lead that are essential

906
00:56:11,253 --> 00:56:14,413
Speaker 4: to the coalition. So in some ways it doesn't make

907
00:56:14,933 --> 00:56:18,733
Speaker 4: a massive practical difference. But in another way, you know,

908
00:56:18,893 --> 00:56:23,653
Speaker 4: act set out at the last election to represent really

909
00:56:24,053 --> 00:56:27,733
Speaker 4: what I call Jacinda's refugees. It was the farmers, the

910
00:56:27,733 --> 00:56:32,173
Speaker 4: small business owners, the landlords, really anyone who thought differently,

911
00:56:33,413 --> 00:56:35,533
Speaker 4: who didn't who was one of the groups that she

912
00:56:35,653 --> 00:56:38,613
Speaker 4: chose to go after, licensed fire and owners I should

913
00:56:38,613 --> 00:56:41,893
Speaker 4: add to that, and you know they all are in

914
00:56:41,933 --> 00:56:43,933
Speaker 4: many cases decided to vote ACT.

915
00:56:44,573 --> 00:56:47,653
Speaker 3: And you know, I'm really proud to represent.

916
00:56:48,733 --> 00:56:51,853
Speaker 4: People who have some get up and go and like

917
00:56:51,933 --> 00:56:55,933
Speaker 4: to think independently. And I think for us as a tribe,

918
00:56:55,933 --> 00:56:59,093
Speaker 4: if you like change makers, I like to call us.

919
00:57:00,453 --> 00:57:02,493
Speaker 3: You know, I sort of accept the honor.

920
00:57:02,253 --> 00:57:05,773
Speaker 4: On behalf of being the Deputy Prime Minister because it

921
00:57:05,853 --> 00:57:08,653
Speaker 4: means that you know, people like us, can you have

922
00:57:08,693 --> 00:57:11,333
Speaker 4: some representation And I think I think you give that

923
00:57:11,373 --> 00:57:15,853
Speaker 4: sort of spirit some some prominence in the country. Then actually,

924
00:57:15,893 --> 00:57:17,253
Speaker 4: our country's got a lot of hope.

925
00:57:18,013 --> 00:57:20,653
Speaker 2: There's one more thing I'd add to a lot of hope.

926
00:57:21,173 --> 00:57:23,933
Speaker 2: We could do with a few more intelligent in peace.

927
00:57:25,893 --> 00:57:27,293
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, a print.

928
00:57:27,373 --> 00:57:29,093
Speaker 4: And I can tell you I've been down here ten

929
00:57:29,213 --> 00:57:34,253
Speaker 4: years and you know it's yeah, it's not easy to find.

930
00:57:34,413 --> 00:57:37,533
Speaker 2: Exactly, David. It's it's great to talk to you. I

931
00:57:37,533 --> 00:57:39,213
Speaker 2: appreciate your times. Thank you, and I'll let you go.

932
00:57:40,373 --> 00:57:40,853
Speaker 3: Hi, thank you.

933
00:57:41,013 --> 00:57:56,893
Speaker 2: Then this is producer here. We are two hundred and

934
00:57:56,973 --> 00:58:00,373
Speaker 2: sixty seven. We've got I think a couple more after

935
00:58:00,413 --> 00:58:04,213
Speaker 2: this week to go before we break for a holiday.

936
00:58:04,693 --> 00:58:09,333
Speaker 5: Unbelievable late two hundred and sixty seven podcasts. That means

937
00:58:09,613 --> 00:58:13,493
Speaker 5: five million hours worked on those two hundred and sixty seven.

938
00:58:14,013 --> 00:58:19,173
Speaker 2: Five billion I think you underestimate, but nevertheless, nevertheless, why

939
00:58:19,173 --> 00:58:19,813
Speaker 2: don't you start?

940
00:58:20,653 --> 00:58:24,013
Speaker 5: Leyden Ab says, I'm a thirty two year old former

941
00:58:24,013 --> 00:58:27,053
Speaker 5: mathematics teacher and a big fan of your podcast. I

942
00:58:27,213 --> 00:58:30,613
Speaker 5: especially enjoyed this week's episode with doctor Michael Johnson and

943
00:58:30,653 --> 00:58:35,213
Speaker 5: his insights on schools sharing resources. During my time at

944
00:58:35,213 --> 00:58:38,653
Speaker 5: one of New Zealand's top performing academic schools, we noticed

945
00:58:38,693 --> 00:58:41,773
Speaker 5: a worrying decline in the math skills of students coming

946
00:58:41,813 --> 00:58:45,653
Speaker 5: from our feeder schools. To address this, our high school

947
00:58:45,693 --> 00:58:49,893
Speaker 5: offered to send teachers to provide professional development for primary

948
00:58:49,933 --> 00:58:54,573
Speaker 5: and intermediate school teachers. Unfortunately, none of the schools took

949
00:58:54,613 --> 00:58:57,933
Speaker 5: up the offer, a real missed opportunity in my opinion.

950
00:58:58,893 --> 00:59:03,653
Speaker 5: Dr Johnson's mention of alternative teacher training methods resonated with me.

951
00:59:04,373 --> 00:59:07,693
Speaker 5: I'm a graduate of an in house teacher training program

952
00:59:07,773 --> 00:59:11,053
Speaker 5: based in Auckland, and I've since returned to my previous

953
00:59:11,133 --> 00:59:14,813
Speaker 5: role to manage the mortgage. The program allowed us to

954
00:59:14,853 --> 00:59:19,853
Speaker 5: complete university studies remotely through Wikata University while teaching full

955
00:59:19,893 --> 00:59:22,853
Speaker 5: time in the classroom for a year, quite different from

956
00:59:22,893 --> 00:59:26,253
Speaker 5: the fourteen weeks of practice typical and the traditional system.

957
00:59:27,213 --> 00:59:30,773
Speaker 5: Our principle set the tone early, emphasizing that the school

958
00:59:30,813 --> 00:59:34,493
Speaker 5: would teach us to become the type of teachers they needed.

959
00:59:35,173 --> 00:59:39,093
Speaker 5: The school covered my fees, provided a stipend, and supported

960
00:59:39,133 --> 00:59:42,173
Speaker 5: us every step of the way. This model has grown

961
00:59:42,333 --> 00:59:45,773
Speaker 5: significantly and could be a great topic for your show.

962
00:59:46,293 --> 00:59:51,333
Speaker 5: I'd recommend interviewing David Ferguson, the former Westlake Boys principal

963
00:59:51,373 --> 00:59:55,093
Speaker 5: who now heads the Teacher Training Institute the Programs Provider.

964
00:59:55,653 --> 00:59:58,693
Speaker 5: I think your listeners would find it encouraging to hear

965
00:59:58,733 --> 01:00:03,213
Speaker 5: that there are innovative and effective approaches to improving education.

966
01:00:04,613 --> 01:00:08,573
Speaker 2: Very well put, and we may well follow up watch

967
01:00:08,613 --> 01:00:11,733
Speaker 2: this space or have at least listen to this space

968
01:00:12,893 --> 01:00:16,053
Speaker 2: from Malcolm. This is once again we so enjoyed your podcast.

969
01:00:16,213 --> 01:00:20,453
Speaker 2: Doctor Michael Johnson talked such sense and we totally agree

970
01:00:20,493 --> 01:00:24,333
Speaker 2: with him that there should be many more students trained

971
01:00:24,373 --> 01:00:26,853
Speaker 2: in the trades, as there's going to be a huge

972
01:00:27,053 --> 01:00:32,853
Speaker 2: shortage of skilled tradees. Interesting too, that universities have not

973
01:00:33,053 --> 01:00:36,653
Speaker 2: been training teachers how to control the classroom. I remember

974
01:00:36,693 --> 01:00:39,533
Speaker 2: my brother saying, after five years at university to become

975
01:00:39,573 --> 01:00:42,733
Speaker 2: a VET, that there hadn't been any lectures on how

976
01:00:42,773 --> 01:00:46,253
Speaker 2: to interact with farmers. You always talk sense in a

977
01:00:46,813 --> 01:00:48,973
Speaker 2: thank you add I such a pleasure to listen to

978
01:00:49,093 --> 01:00:53,213
Speaker 2: double thank you, Unlike ninety nine percent of our present journalists,

979
01:00:53,773 --> 01:00:56,253
Speaker 2: thank you for your podcasts and please keep them coming,

980
01:00:56,333 --> 01:01:00,213
Speaker 2: Malcolm much appreciated. I only read what you say. I'm

981
01:01:00,253 --> 01:01:01,293
Speaker 2: not responsible for it.

982
01:01:02,293 --> 01:01:06,493
Speaker 5: Leydon Paul says, at about fifty minutes into podcast two

983
01:01:06,533 --> 01:01:11,133
Speaker 5: six six Dr Michael Johnson and mentions concern regarding Trump's

984
01:01:11,173 --> 01:01:16,053
Speaker 5: ideological leanings creeping into his governance. You immediately chimed in

985
01:01:16,093 --> 01:01:18,813
Speaker 5: with a confident statement that you hold no such fears.

986
01:01:19,293 --> 01:01:21,573
Speaker 5: I am one hundred percent in agreement with you on

987
01:01:21,613 --> 01:01:24,813
Speaker 5: that stance. The reasons for my solidarity with you on

988
01:01:24,933 --> 01:01:27,933
Speaker 5: this position are entrenched in years of reading stuff you

989
01:01:28,013 --> 01:01:31,573
Speaker 5: have recommended to listeners. Such reading has allowed me to

990
01:01:31,613 --> 01:01:35,973
Speaker 5: think a outside the square and B critically and by

991
01:01:35,973 --> 01:01:39,733
Speaker 5: the way. Christian Smith's most recent podcast plus interview with

992
01:01:39,773 --> 01:01:44,173
Speaker 5: George Friedman was outstanding in that Christian Smith showed a

993
01:01:44,293 --> 01:01:47,693
Speaker 5: similar skill set to his dad, posing the correct line

994
01:01:47,693 --> 01:01:50,733
Speaker 5: of questioning to bring forth answers that make the listener

995
01:01:50,893 --> 01:01:54,853
Speaker 5: think things through. I'm looking forward to the next podcast,

996
01:01:54,893 --> 01:01:55,733
Speaker 5: and that was from Paul.

997
01:01:55,933 --> 01:01:58,973
Speaker 2: I'm going to send that to the aforementioned Christian Smith

998
01:01:59,693 --> 01:02:02,653
Speaker 2: and I'm sure he'll appreciate it. And I might have

999
01:02:02,693 --> 01:02:07,533
Speaker 2: achieved something I was unaware of from James Jeffrey Sachs

1000
01:02:08,453 --> 01:02:11,053
Speaker 2: on the real and growing possibility of nuclear war with

1001
01:02:11,053 --> 01:02:15,453
Speaker 2: the Russian Federation. This alarming development is being caused by

1002
01:02:15,933 --> 01:02:19,533
Speaker 2: whoever is pretending to run the US government, and appears

1003
01:02:19,573 --> 01:02:23,093
Speaker 2: to be aimed at causing the utmost instability to Donald

1004
01:02:23,133 --> 01:02:28,133
Speaker 2: Trump's incoming administration, even possibly causing sufficient of an emergency

1005
01:02:28,253 --> 01:02:33,053
Speaker 2: to prevent his inauguration altogether. Let us hope that a

1006
01:02:33,053 --> 01:02:38,933
Speaker 2: combination of President Trump's statesmanship and President Putin's restraint in

1007
01:02:38,973 --> 01:02:42,893
Speaker 2: brackets severely tested by now we are sure, has the

1008
01:02:42,933 --> 01:02:46,893
Speaker 2: effect of at least avoiding a nuclear confrontation, but the

1009
01:02:47,013 --> 01:02:51,733
Speaker 2: risk is real and increasing. Cheers from Jim and Jean

1010
01:02:51,853 --> 01:02:57,013
Speaker 2: in Colombia. Now, I would suggest to you that things

1011
01:02:57,013 --> 01:03:00,453
Speaker 2: have developed even further since that was written. On the

1012
01:03:00,453 --> 01:03:05,853
Speaker 2: twenty first of November. Unquestionably, Look, you've raised something with

1013
01:03:05,933 --> 01:03:10,973
Speaker 2: regard to the current administration or what's left of it.

1014
01:03:11,573 --> 01:03:13,413
Speaker 2: I've said this a number of times to people like that,

1015
01:03:13,493 --> 01:03:15,693
Speaker 2: to remember whether I've ever said it on the podcast.

1016
01:03:16,213 --> 01:03:19,693
Speaker 2: I wouldn't put it past those bastards to do anything,

1017
01:03:19,853 --> 01:03:22,893
Speaker 2: to pull any stunt in order to stay in power.

1018
01:03:23,053 --> 01:03:26,373
Speaker 2: And the thought that you know they could postpone, cancel

1019
01:03:26,493 --> 01:03:32,053
Speaker 2: whatever the inauguration is frightening. But again, while it's unlikely,

1020
01:03:32,093 --> 01:03:35,453
Speaker 2: I think, don't be surprised if something along those lines happens.

1021
01:03:36,333 --> 01:03:39,573
Speaker 5: Laydon and Louise says, thank you for your work exposing

1022
01:03:39,573 --> 01:03:43,813
Speaker 5: the insidious left and ensuring opposing views are aired. I

1023
01:03:43,853 --> 01:03:46,253
Speaker 5: was horrified to hear you say you had little interest

1024
01:03:46,293 --> 01:03:48,973
Speaker 5: in AI and implore you to change that.

1025
01:03:49,253 --> 01:03:52,493
Speaker 2: Ah, hold it, I didn't, if I remember correctly, I

1026
01:03:52,493 --> 01:03:55,293
Speaker 2: didn't say little interest in AI, said little interest into

1027
01:03:55,293 --> 01:03:55,933
Speaker 2: the way it works.

1028
01:03:57,373 --> 01:04:00,733
Speaker 5: I had a very interesting conversation with an old friend

1029
01:04:00,853 --> 01:04:06,893
Speaker 5: of ours and very well revered journalist. He's doing a

1030
01:04:06,973 --> 01:04:11,373
Speaker 5: course next year on AI. His interest has turned to AI.

1031
01:04:12,293 --> 01:04:15,973
Speaker 5: He's doing a course at a very well known education

1032
01:04:16,293 --> 01:04:21,373
Speaker 5: institute Europe, and he's interested in not the way it's

1033
01:04:21,493 --> 01:04:26,253
Speaker 5: working now, but the ramifications on society. This man has

1034
01:04:26,253 --> 01:04:30,253
Speaker 5: always been at the forefront of technology, and it was

1035
01:04:30,333 --> 01:04:35,053
Speaker 5: a very interesting and illuminating conversation. But he was right

1036
01:04:35,293 --> 01:04:39,213
Speaker 5: in the the worry about it for the future, but

1037
01:04:39,253 --> 01:04:42,213
Speaker 5: also the inevitability of it. And I look forward to

1038
01:04:42,253 --> 01:04:45,373
Speaker 5: having a conversation with him in six months or a

1039
01:04:45,453 --> 01:04:46,933
Speaker 5: year's time when he finishes that course.

1040
01:04:47,053 --> 01:04:48,373
Speaker 2: No one, you must tell me who it is, and

1041
01:04:48,453 --> 01:04:50,853
Speaker 2: I might join him anyway. Where was I?

1042
01:04:51,253 --> 01:04:51,333
Speaker 3: So?

1043
01:04:51,413 --> 01:04:54,653
Speaker 5: Anne Luise goes on to say Gemini or chat GPT

1044
01:04:55,133 --> 01:04:59,693
Speaker 5: as examples of public facing artificial intelligence tools supply the

1045
01:04:59,813 --> 01:05:02,813
Speaker 5: answers which are then taken as fact. When people look

1046
01:05:02,853 --> 01:05:05,493
Speaker 5: things up on the Internet, you will find that they

1047
01:05:05,573 --> 01:05:10,693
Speaker 5: regurgitate without citations, whatever is being fed. Their sources include

1048
01:05:10,693 --> 01:05:14,893
Speaker 5: Wikipedia and mainstream as well as social media reports. As

1049
01:05:14,893 --> 01:05:18,493
Speaker 5: a result, they frame everything through a woke lens. This

1050
01:05:18,653 --> 01:05:23,173
Speaker 5: is because AI doesn't know any better. Morally sound thinkers

1051
01:05:23,213 --> 01:05:26,213
Speaker 5: do not appear to be engaging sufficiently to balance the

1052
01:05:26,333 --> 01:05:30,813
Speaker 5: Left's dominance in this space. More than its propensity to

1053
01:05:30,853 --> 01:05:33,933
Speaker 5: offer skewed facts, there is the very serious issue of

1054
01:05:34,013 --> 01:05:37,373
Speaker 5: AI's moral position and the influence it yields now and

1055
01:05:37,493 --> 01:05:42,453
Speaker 5: will wield over the next generation. Former chief business officer

1056
01:05:42,493 --> 01:05:47,613
Speaker 5: for Google and author Mogaudit likens AI to a Superman

1057
01:05:47,773 --> 01:05:51,933
Speaker 5: type child and as its parents, we society have a

1058
01:05:52,013 --> 01:05:53,933
Speaker 5: duty to teach it what it needs to know to

1059
01:05:53,973 --> 01:05:57,493
Speaker 5: make a positive contribution in the world. At the moment,

1060
01:05:57,533 --> 01:06:02,093
Speaker 5: it's a toddler sucking up data, indiscriminately learning from social media,

1061
01:06:02,373 --> 01:06:06,853
Speaker 5: so it thinks that most people are mean spirited, egotistical, narcissistic,

1062
01:06:07,293 --> 01:06:11,653
Speaker 5: complaining and generally vile to one another. It is learning

1063
01:06:11,693 --> 01:06:15,733
Speaker 5: that this is appropriate behavior in human interaction. We need

1064
01:06:15,773 --> 01:06:18,733
Speaker 5: to teach it what humans really value. I would start

1065
01:06:18,773 --> 01:06:24,093
Speaker 5: with love, respect, integrity, connection, truth. So get your head

1066
01:06:24,133 --> 01:06:27,573
Speaker 5: out of the sand and engage with Ai. Demonstrate the

1067
01:06:27,573 --> 01:06:30,893
Speaker 5: good parenting skills you have. The future needs you. And

1068
01:06:30,933 --> 01:06:33,653
Speaker 5: that's from Anne, Luise and Louise.

1069
01:06:33,693 --> 01:06:36,693
Speaker 2: I don't think that any contribution I made would go

1070
01:06:36,773 --> 01:06:37,373
Speaker 2: six inches.

1071
01:06:37,613 --> 01:06:39,013
Speaker 5: Oh that was a very good email.

1072
01:06:39,133 --> 01:06:41,853
Speaker 2: It was a very good email. And there is food

1073
01:06:41,893 --> 01:06:46,213
Speaker 2: for thought anyway from Brett. Just a thought. If a

1074
01:06:46,253 --> 01:06:49,493
Speaker 2: referenda were held today, how many would vote to remove

1075
01:06:49,573 --> 01:06:53,693
Speaker 2: Mary seats in maury role. The three parties in government

1076
01:06:54,093 --> 01:06:57,173
Speaker 2: have in the past had policy to remove the Mariy seats,

1077
01:06:57,493 --> 01:07:00,613
Speaker 2: but none of the guts to follow through. The need

1078
01:07:00,693 --> 01:07:04,493
Speaker 2: for such seats is long past, indeed, and most people

1079
01:07:04,573 --> 01:07:07,453
Speaker 2: know it. How many would vote to remove race from

1080
01:07:07,573 --> 01:07:11,733
Speaker 2: legislation to put it to the public vote. What sort

1081
01:07:11,733 --> 01:07:14,773
Speaker 2: of country do the New Zealand people want to live in?

1082
01:07:15,333 --> 01:07:20,373
Speaker 2: Are the MPs and government even listening? Have a great week, Breadth.

1083
01:07:21,013 --> 01:07:23,453
Speaker 2: You've raised a couple of good points, and some of

1084
01:07:23,493 --> 01:07:27,213
Speaker 2: which was discussed in the discussion that we had the

1085
01:07:27,213 --> 01:07:33,093
Speaker 2: interview I did with David Seymour. I think this room

1086
01:07:33,533 --> 01:07:35,733
Speaker 2: for a follow up in that too. Sometime earlier in

1087
01:07:35,733 --> 01:07:37,973
Speaker 2: the new year, Lady.

1088
01:07:37,813 --> 01:07:41,493
Speaker 5: Jin says I wrote down Michael Johnson's excellent definition of

1089
01:07:41,533 --> 01:07:45,533
Speaker 5: science being the ability to discuss ideas, to argue about

1090
01:07:45,613 --> 01:07:49,253
Speaker 5: ideas backed by evidence in a civil way without wanting

1091
01:07:49,293 --> 01:07:52,813
Speaker 5: to kill your opponent, and instead seeing disagreement as a

1092
01:07:52,893 --> 01:07:58,013
Speaker 5: chance to improve everybody's ideas. In other words, says Jen,

1093
01:07:58,173 --> 01:08:02,933
Speaker 5: science is the laboratory by which ideas are verbalized, tested, strengthened,

1094
01:08:03,093 --> 01:08:07,133
Speaker 5: or discarded until we discover truths. At the recent Free

1095
01:08:07,133 --> 01:08:11,293
Speaker 5: Speech Union Age, I attended the Academic Freedom breakout session

1096
01:08:11,413 --> 01:08:16,013
Speaker 5: hosted by doctor Michael Johnson, Professor Natasha Hamilton Hart and

1097
01:08:16,133 --> 01:08:21,213
Speaker 5: Professor Grant Schofield. They gave three key reasons why academic

1098
01:08:21,293 --> 01:08:27,693
Speaker 5: freedom is stifled in New Zealand. Firstly, limited permissibility discourages

1099
01:08:27,733 --> 01:08:32,453
Speaker 5: the seeking and testing of truth. Secondly, research funding with

1100
01:08:32,533 --> 01:08:36,653
Speaker 5: strings attached restricts the scope of truth to those who

1101
01:08:36,693 --> 01:08:42,133
Speaker 5: provide funding, usually the government or rich elitists like Soros. Thirdly,

1102
01:08:42,613 --> 01:08:46,733
Speaker 5: academic group thinks suppresses truth whenever it doesn't agree with

1103
01:08:46,773 --> 01:08:50,173
Speaker 5: their ideologies. In other words, the suppression of truth is

1104
01:08:50,213 --> 01:08:54,413
Speaker 5: the root cause of academic slavery. No wonder Jesus said

1105
01:08:54,453 --> 01:08:55,893
Speaker 5: the truth will set you free.

1106
01:08:56,893 --> 01:09:00,933
Speaker 2: Just thinking about that might come back to it. I

1107
01:09:01,053 --> 01:09:05,333
Speaker 2: listened to your podcast, Actually, I listened to your excellent

1108
01:09:05,373 --> 01:09:10,533
Speaker 2: podcasts as clear today. Adam currently watching Matt wash on

1109
01:09:10,613 --> 01:09:15,253
Speaker 2: New Zealand. He's very funny, although it's deadly serious here,

1110
01:09:15,653 --> 01:09:21,093
Speaker 2: at least by the Mary Ravel. The Harker dubbed into

1111
01:09:21,213 --> 01:09:25,373
Speaker 2: jazz is hilarious. I was glad for the fast forward

1112
01:09:25,373 --> 01:09:28,093
Speaker 2: button during the news last week. This which is clear

1113
01:09:28,733 --> 01:09:30,733
Speaker 2: when she says when she refers to the Harker dubbed

1114
01:09:30,773 --> 01:09:35,893
Speaker 2: into jazz. Matt Welsh actually puts the Harker that was done,

1115
01:09:36,013 --> 01:09:38,213
Speaker 2: the so called Harker that was done in the house

1116
01:09:39,453 --> 01:09:43,373
Speaker 2: to jazz piano, you know, old twenties jazz piano. And

1117
01:09:43,413 --> 01:09:44,493
Speaker 2: it's actually very clearer.

1118
01:09:45,573 --> 01:09:50,773
Speaker 5: Lady John references episode two six five and he says, brilliant,

1119
01:09:50,973 --> 01:09:54,733
Speaker 5: just superb. The interview with David Bell was incredibly disturbing

1120
01:09:54,773 --> 01:09:59,853
Speaker 5: while being so informative and challenging. Another must listen to,

1121
01:10:00,333 --> 01:10:02,053
Speaker 5: and he needs greater exposure.

1122
01:10:03,093 --> 01:10:07,933
Speaker 2: Well, I'm doing my best. He's a lovely, lovely man

1123
01:10:09,213 --> 01:10:13,373
Speaker 2: from will. I have long had interest in literacy standards

1124
01:10:13,373 --> 01:10:17,773
Speaker 2: in children from underprivileged backgrounds, and forty years ago, when

1125
01:10:17,813 --> 01:10:21,693
Speaker 2: I first got retired, I had time on my hands.

1126
01:10:21,773 --> 01:10:25,293
Speaker 2: I devised a scheme to teach such children to read

1127
01:10:25,373 --> 01:10:29,013
Speaker 2: with free lessons. I got support from the local library

1128
01:10:29,013 --> 01:10:31,973
Speaker 2: at a couple of community groups, and had meetings with parents,

1129
01:10:32,613 --> 01:10:35,813
Speaker 2: parents who didn't have the ability, the time, or inclination

1130
01:10:35,933 --> 01:10:38,973
Speaker 2: to teach their kids to read, and they genuinely believed

1131
01:10:39,013 --> 01:10:41,973
Speaker 2: that the school would teach them to read. But things

1132
01:10:42,013 --> 01:10:44,253
Speaker 2: didn't work out. And I did write to you a

1133
01:10:44,253 --> 01:10:47,613
Speaker 2: long time ago, I think in the talkback radio days,

1134
01:10:47,653 --> 01:10:50,413
Speaker 2: to tell you what happened. So I listened to Michael

1135
01:10:50,493 --> 01:10:53,973
Speaker 2: Johnson on your podcast last week, a well educated man

1136
01:10:54,413 --> 01:10:56,973
Speaker 2: with a good command of the language, who spent most

1137
01:10:57,333 --> 01:11:03,933
Speaker 2: almost the entire time talking towaddle, oh overthinking twaddle. There

1138
01:11:03,933 --> 01:11:07,293
Speaker 2: were a couple of instances where common sense glimpsed through,

1139
01:11:07,773 --> 01:11:10,373
Speaker 2: but when he began to outline the paper he intends

1140
01:11:10,373 --> 01:11:14,133
Speaker 2: to present next year, I heard double toddle. It's a

1141
01:11:14,133 --> 01:11:17,733
Speaker 2: great shame that all our teachers now have been educated

1142
01:11:17,813 --> 01:11:21,133
Speaker 2: in a system which has been flawed for a long time.

1143
01:11:21,933 --> 01:11:23,893
Speaker 2: I started school at the age of four in nineteen

1144
01:11:23,973 --> 01:11:26,653
Speaker 2: thirty eight. We had forty two in the class, and

1145
01:11:26,733 --> 01:11:29,013
Speaker 2: I think most of them could read. At that time.

1146
01:11:29,293 --> 01:11:32,653
Speaker 2: Our parents taught us and taught us well. The world

1147
01:11:32,733 --> 01:11:36,213
Speaker 2: now is a vastly different place, but a lot of

1148
01:11:36,293 --> 01:11:39,333
Speaker 2: old methods of teaching would produce better results than we

1149
01:11:39,373 --> 01:11:43,213
Speaker 2: are seeing today. I think you underestimate will, I think

1150
01:11:43,213 --> 01:11:48,613
Speaker 2: you underestimate Michael Johnson in what he's doing. And I

1151
01:11:48,613 --> 01:11:51,693
Speaker 2: think the toddle, if it is such to you, might

1152
01:11:52,173 --> 01:11:53,933
Speaker 2: unravel itself as time goes by.

1153
01:11:54,813 --> 01:11:58,693
Speaker 5: Laden We sent you some homework last week. Mel wrote

1154
01:11:58,693 --> 01:12:01,733
Speaker 5: you this letter. My parents used to listen to your

1155
01:12:01,733 --> 01:12:03,893
Speaker 5: on talkback radio years ago, and as a kid I

1156
01:12:03,973 --> 01:12:05,893
Speaker 5: used to roll my eyes and think how stupid and

1157
01:12:05,933 --> 01:12:08,733
Speaker 5: boring it was to listen to talk back. I don't

1158
01:12:08,733 --> 01:12:11,413
Speaker 5: know how many times I heard Lighton said, now I

1159
01:12:11,453 --> 01:12:14,093
Speaker 5: find myself listening to talk back and podcasts all the time.

1160
01:12:14,173 --> 01:12:18,213
Speaker 5: I guess I grew up. Anyway, Mel said, to you,

1161
01:12:18,213 --> 01:12:21,373
Speaker 5: your podcast two five seven with doctor Paul Merrick mentioned

1162
01:12:21,413 --> 01:12:25,213
Speaker 5: a book that Amazon banned and is no longer available.

1163
01:12:25,253 --> 01:12:27,173
Speaker 5: He mentioned that he would send you a PDF of

1164
01:12:27,213 --> 01:12:29,733
Speaker 5: the book, so I'm wondering if I can have a

1165
01:12:29,773 --> 01:12:34,573
Speaker 5: copy of that pdf to read and Mel also asked

1166
01:12:34,653 --> 01:12:38,213
Speaker 5: for information on treating COVID short and long.

1167
01:12:39,413 --> 01:12:44,133
Speaker 2: HM. I made contact with Paul Merrick and he sent

1168
01:12:44,173 --> 01:12:47,093
Speaker 2: me a very short reply. He said the book has

1169
01:12:47,213 --> 01:12:55,133
Speaker 2: now been unbanned. It is now available on Amazon, so

1170
01:12:55,293 --> 01:12:58,453
Speaker 2: if you want a copy, just go to Amazon. Start

1171
01:12:58,493 --> 01:13:03,173
Speaker 2: with Amazon Australia, Amazon AU and do a search for

1172
01:13:03,293 --> 01:13:04,853
Speaker 2: because I can't think of the title of it off,

1173
01:13:04,853 --> 01:13:10,293
Speaker 2: then do a search for Paul Merrick. And I'm sure

1174
01:13:10,573 --> 01:13:12,573
Speaker 2: that you are. I tell you what I'm going to do.

1175
01:13:13,053 --> 01:13:17,533
Speaker 2: Just hold your horses there for a moment, right. I

1176
01:13:17,573 --> 01:13:19,813
Speaker 2: hope that wasn't too long. I did a quick check

1177
01:13:19,853 --> 01:13:25,053
Speaker 2: online with Amazon Australia and the book is available. It's

1178
01:13:25,093 --> 01:13:28,533
Speaker 2: twenty two dollars. This is Australian twenty two dollars fifty

1179
01:13:28,533 --> 01:13:31,733
Speaker 2: five cents plus plus postage. I probably cost you thirty dollars,

1180
01:13:32,533 --> 01:13:38,413
Speaker 2: which is can Secure. It's called can Secures. That's a

1181
01:13:38,533 --> 01:13:41,893
Speaker 2: very reasonable price. So go for it. Am I off

1182
01:13:41,893 --> 01:13:42,213
Speaker 2: the hook?

1183
01:13:42,253 --> 01:13:46,493
Speaker 5: Now you're off the hook with Meil anyway? Yes, sure,

1184
01:13:46,493 --> 01:13:47,693
Speaker 5: you're on the hook with many.

1185
01:13:47,493 --> 01:13:52,173
Speaker 2: Others, all right, So that'll do. Oh No, I know

1186
01:13:52,213 --> 01:13:53,853
Speaker 2: what I wanted to say, and I needed to say.

1187
01:13:55,413 --> 01:14:00,493
Speaker 2: I'm sitting here on three long to very long commentaries

1188
01:14:01,333 --> 01:14:03,133
Speaker 2: that are just too long for me to do in

1189
01:14:03,453 --> 01:14:07,333
Speaker 2: the mail room. So I'm going to use one of

1190
01:14:07,333 --> 01:14:12,773
Speaker 2: them short and the other two will get a hearing

1191
01:14:12,933 --> 01:14:17,933
Speaker 2: at some stage in the very near future. That's the best.

1192
01:14:18,093 --> 01:14:19,733
Speaker 2: That's the best I can do. Well, do you understand

1193
01:14:19,733 --> 01:14:21,973
Speaker 2: what I'm saying? I mean, look out along that one. Yes,

1194
01:14:22,653 --> 01:14:25,173
Speaker 2: And it's in very tiny print too, it makes it harder.

1195
01:14:25,373 --> 01:14:27,573
Speaker 2: Can I just make a request please that if you

1196
01:14:27,973 --> 01:14:32,333
Speaker 2: can adjust your print size up, because there's a lot

1197
01:14:32,333 --> 01:14:36,013
Speaker 2: of very small print mail today, if you can adjust

1198
01:14:36,053 --> 01:14:39,573
Speaker 2: your print size up to to say, at least fourteen

1199
01:14:39,613 --> 01:14:42,173
Speaker 2: and if not, fourteen eighteen would be even even better.

1200
01:14:43,053 --> 01:14:45,333
Speaker 2: If your system works like mine, those minds a MAC,

1201
01:14:46,093 --> 01:14:48,373
Speaker 2: then that would make it much easier at this end

1202
01:14:49,733 --> 01:14:54,813
Speaker 2: for elderly eyes. That's it later, I'm off, Yes, I know.

1203
01:14:57,933 --> 01:15:00,093
Speaker 2: We will see you next week. Thank you so much.

1204
01:15:00,413 --> 01:15:14,693
Speaker 2: Your time is appreciated. Thank you.

1205
01:15:20,933 --> 01:15:21,133
Speaker 3: Now.

1206
01:15:21,173 --> 01:15:26,853
Speaker 2: Finally to the submission from the individual known as former

1207
01:15:26,973 --> 01:15:31,653
Speaker 2: National Party MP. Most of us will recall in the

1208
01:15:31,693 --> 01:15:35,293
Speaker 2: seventies and eighties that the chance of dissatisfaction related to

1209
01:15:35,333 --> 01:15:39,213
Speaker 2: the Treaty of Whitegy was the Treaty is a fraud.

1210
01:15:40,453 --> 01:15:43,733
Speaker 2: At the recent Hickoi Who Parliament, the chant has gone

1211
01:15:44,093 --> 01:15:48,173
Speaker 2: one eighty degrees to become honor of the treaty. So

1212
01:15:48,293 --> 01:15:50,373
Speaker 2: what has caused such a change in the fifty years

1213
01:15:50,413 --> 01:15:54,853
Speaker 2: since The genesis in my view, was when Sir Jeffrey

1214
01:15:54,853 --> 01:15:58,973
Speaker 2: Palmer gave a speech in nineteen eighty nine titled Principles

1215
01:15:59,013 --> 01:16:02,413
Speaker 2: for Crown Action on the Treaty of Whitegy. Not only

1216
01:16:02,453 --> 01:16:04,373
Speaker 2: did he claim that he was looking to clarify the

1217
01:16:04,373 --> 01:16:07,933
Speaker 2: Treaty principles, but he also introduced the concept of the

1218
01:16:07,973 --> 01:16:12,413
Speaker 2: treaty being a partnership, something that emerged in the eighties

1219
01:16:12,453 --> 01:16:16,893
Speaker 2: from the Mary Council cases. The speech outlined five principles

1220
01:16:16,893 --> 01:16:19,693
Speaker 2: for the government to act on in relation to the treaty,

1221
01:16:20,373 --> 01:16:26,773
Speaker 2: the principle of government, the principle of self government, equality, cooperation, redress.

1222
01:16:27,333 --> 01:16:31,533
Speaker 2: Far from bringing clarification, though, it seems, history has shown

1223
01:16:31,613 --> 01:16:35,213
Speaker 2: us that the courts and all manner of organizations and

1224
01:16:35,333 --> 01:16:39,973
Speaker 2: individuals have chosen to adopt a multitude of different meanings

1225
01:16:40,013 --> 01:16:45,253
Speaker 2: and interpretations from these principles. However, the unilateral decision to

1226
01:16:45,293 --> 01:16:48,573
Speaker 2: declare that the treaty was in fact a partnership has

1227
01:16:48,613 --> 01:16:52,013
Speaker 2: in my view, been instrumental in the seismic shift in

1228
01:16:52,093 --> 01:16:55,773
Speaker 2: attitude from the treaty being a fraud to one that

1229
01:16:55,893 --> 01:17:00,813
Speaker 2: must now be honoured. David Seymore's bill seeks to actually

1230
01:17:02,093 --> 01:17:06,133
Speaker 2: all in upper case, actually get clarity on the principles

1231
01:17:06,573 --> 01:17:10,413
Speaker 2: so that lawmakers can be far more explicit than courts

1232
01:17:10,453 --> 01:17:13,213
Speaker 2: have little room to interpret them as they see fit,

1233
01:17:13,733 --> 01:17:17,773
Speaker 2: running roughshod over what Parliament has determined. But based on

1234
01:17:17,893 --> 01:17:22,413
Speaker 2: the Mari party recruitment drive otherwise known as the HICICOI

1235
01:17:22,493 --> 01:17:25,333
Speaker 2: to Parliament, it seems wideer New Zealand is not even

1236
01:17:25,373 --> 01:17:28,693
Speaker 2: allowed to have a structured discussion on what, if anything,

1237
01:17:28,853 --> 01:17:32,653
Speaker 2: needs to happen to achieve clarity. They want to kill

1238
01:17:32,693 --> 01:17:35,613
Speaker 2: the bill and deny us of having a say, of

1239
01:17:35,653 --> 01:17:39,933
Speaker 2: having a voice, and of having democratic rights. Of course,

1240
01:17:39,973 --> 01:17:42,213
Speaker 2: we've come to expect nothing less from the married Party,

1241
01:17:42,493 --> 01:17:46,493
Speaker 2: who are nothing more than well paid activists who champion

1242
01:17:46,613 --> 01:17:51,613
Speaker 2: separatism is the answer, and arrogantly disrespect the conventions and

1243
01:17:51,653 --> 01:17:55,613
Speaker 2: authority of the House of Parliament, behaving with contempt within

1244
01:17:55,693 --> 01:17:59,213
Speaker 2: its chamber. So what would New Zealand look like if

1245
01:17:59,253 --> 01:18:04,693
Speaker 2: the likes of Debi, nari Wa Panka and Rawiri Waititi

1246
01:18:04,853 --> 01:18:08,693
Speaker 2: had their way, Well, it would look like what so

1247
01:18:08,853 --> 01:18:11,693
Speaker 2: many in this country protested about during the nineteen ninety

1248
01:18:11,693 --> 01:18:15,893
Speaker 2: one Spring Book Tour, apartheid. Just as the view of

1249
01:18:15,933 --> 01:18:19,053
Speaker 2: the Treaty has gone one to eighty degrees, as so

1250
01:18:19,253 --> 01:18:22,493
Speaker 2: has our acceptance of the type of separatism seen in

1251
01:18:22,533 --> 01:18:25,453
Speaker 2: South Africa that we stood against in the nineteen eighties.

1252
01:18:26,293 --> 01:18:30,933
Speaker 2: Many married leaders, including married party politicians, see segregation about

1253
01:18:31,013 --> 01:18:35,653
Speaker 2: political and socioeconomic structures into mary and non marry as

1254
01:18:35,733 --> 01:18:40,093
Speaker 2: both a legitimate way forward but something that they're entitled to.

1255
01:18:41,093 --> 01:18:44,693
Speaker 2: I'm quite sure that when the Treaty was introduced into

1256
01:18:44,733 --> 01:18:48,773
Speaker 2: what was a fast growing but lawless nation that this

1257
01:18:48,853 --> 01:18:52,613
Speaker 2: sort of dystopian outcome could not have been envisaged. Far

1258
01:18:52,653 --> 01:18:55,933
Speaker 2: from it, you would think I now struggle to recognize

1259
01:18:55,973 --> 01:18:59,693
Speaker 2: the country I was born into. On many levels, we

1260
01:18:59,733 --> 01:19:02,813
Speaker 2: are losing our way in fundamental areas that have the

1261
01:19:02,853 --> 01:19:06,853
Speaker 2: potential to unravel our nation to the core. The council

1262
01:19:06,893 --> 01:19:10,013
Speaker 2: culture is alive and well in New Zealand, but the

1263
01:19:10,293 --> 01:19:13,533
Speaker 2: fact that aiming to have a meaningful discussion about the

1264
01:19:13,573 --> 01:19:18,293
Speaker 2: treaty is literally yelled down as being divisive by the

1265
01:19:18,453 --> 01:19:22,893
Speaker 2: very people who want separatism based on race is almost comical.

1266
01:19:23,453 --> 01:19:28,013
Speaker 2: It is so ironic, and all the while David Seymour

1267
01:19:28,093 --> 01:19:32,093
Speaker 2: is standing strong behind the importance of this discussion, his

1268
01:19:32,173 --> 01:19:35,973
Speaker 2: two coalition partners having already sidestepped it by saying that

1269
01:19:36,013 --> 01:19:40,093
Speaker 2: they won't support it beyond the Select Committee. Prime Minister

1270
01:19:40,093 --> 01:19:42,893
Speaker 2: Deluction dances on the head of a pin about the

1271
01:19:42,933 --> 01:19:47,613
Speaker 2: whole subject and claims it's a divisive bill, clearly taking

1272
01:19:47,653 --> 01:19:50,613
Speaker 2: the duck for cover approach, while Seymour climbs out of

1273
01:19:50,653 --> 01:19:53,933
Speaker 2: the trenches to advance toward what I am sure he

1274
01:19:54,053 --> 01:19:57,453
Speaker 2: believes is in the best interests of our country's future.

1275
01:19:57,893 --> 01:20:00,253
Speaker 2: We as a nation need to take a damn good

1276
01:20:00,253 --> 01:20:03,133
Speaker 2: look at ourselves, like it or not. We should be

1277
01:20:03,253 --> 01:20:05,973
Speaker 2: mature enough as a nation to have a rational and

1278
01:20:06,053 --> 01:20:09,533
Speaker 2: meaningful discussion on this subject. And by that I don't

1279
01:20:09,613 --> 01:20:14,173
Speaker 2: mean retiring all black halfbacks using the legacy of the

1280
01:20:14,173 --> 01:20:17,173
Speaker 2: black Jersey and the Harker as a platform to make

1281
01:20:17,293 --> 01:20:21,333
Speaker 2: political statements about the Treaty. Keep your politics out of

1282
01:20:21,413 --> 01:20:25,373
Speaker 2: our national game, mister Paranara. We are not growing up

1283
01:20:25,533 --> 01:20:28,973
Speaker 2: as a nation. We are growing apart, not because of

1284
01:20:29,013 --> 01:20:33,493
Speaker 2: the bill, but because some of us are so immature

1285
01:20:33,773 --> 01:20:37,853
Speaker 2: and entitled that we are incapable of debating and discussing

1286
01:20:37,853 --> 01:20:42,173
Speaker 2: the bill. If David Seymour's stand on the Treaty Principal's

1287
01:20:42,213 --> 01:20:46,093
Speaker 2: Bill has shown us anything, it's that we are bereft

1288
01:20:46,413 --> 01:20:50,213
Speaker 2: of political fortitude and vision from other leaders in our

1289
01:20:50,253 --> 01:20:54,653
Speaker 2: parliament to stand alongside him and transcend the vitriolic noise

1290
01:20:54,973 --> 01:20:58,573
Speaker 2: in order to support our nation to grow and truly mature.

1291
01:20:59,293 --> 01:21:02,573
Speaker 2: If David Seymour's stand on the Treaty Principal's Bill has

1292
01:21:02,573 --> 01:21:05,973
Speaker 2: shown us anything, it's that we are bereft of political

1293
01:21:06,013 --> 01:21:10,413
Speaker 2: fortitude and vision from other leaders in our parliament to

1294
01:21:10,613 --> 01:21:15,333
Speaker 2: stand alongside him and transcend the vitriotic noise in order

1295
01:21:15,413 --> 01:21:21,093
Speaker 2: to support our nation to grow and truly mature. Sadly

1296
01:21:21,173 --> 01:21:24,573
Speaker 2: this won't happen, and ultimately all of us will be

1297
01:21:24,613 --> 01:21:28,453
Speaker 2: worse off as a consequence, not because the bill is divisive,

1298
01:21:28,853 --> 01:21:32,973
Speaker 2: but because we are incapable of standing up against division

1299
01:21:34,133 --> 01:21:39,533
Speaker 2: to have the discussion. Now, I would believe that nineteen

1300
01:21:39,573 --> 01:21:41,853
Speaker 2: nine point nine nine nine percent of you think that

1301
01:21:42,013 --> 01:21:46,333
Speaker 2: is a very good commentary and worthy of wider hearing.

1302
01:21:46,933 --> 01:21:50,853
Speaker 2: So share it with whoever you feel like, Send the

1303
01:21:50,853 --> 01:21:52,893
Speaker 2: podcast to other people, tell them where they listen, what

1304
01:21:52,973 --> 01:21:56,733
Speaker 2: to listen to, because I think it's very important. That's

1305
01:21:57,133 --> 01:22:02,093
Speaker 2: that's extremely good, and I thank the former National Party MP,

1306
01:22:02,973 --> 01:22:05,293
Speaker 2: and that will take us out for podcasts two hundred

1307
01:22:05,293 --> 01:22:08,133
Speaker 2: and sixty seven. We shall return, of course, very shortly

1308
01:22:08,133 --> 01:22:11,453
Speaker 2: with podcast two one hundred and sixty eight, second last

1309
01:22:11,493 --> 01:22:14,693
Speaker 2: of the year and the last one of the year.

1310
01:22:14,733 --> 01:22:17,533
Speaker 2: By the way, I'll tell you is gonna be a

1311
01:22:17,573 --> 01:22:20,853
Speaker 2: fun one. Well, I think it'll be fun with Tony

1312
01:22:20,893 --> 01:22:25,213
Speaker 2: Astell from Antoine's Restaurant, with whom we used to speak

1313
01:22:25,253 --> 01:22:27,813
Speaker 2: on a regular basis on radio but haven't done so

1314
01:22:28,013 --> 01:22:30,933
Speaker 2: for a few years. But we are both keen he

1315
01:22:31,013 --> 01:22:33,853
Speaker 2: and I to do it, so we chose the last

1316
01:22:33,893 --> 01:22:36,413
Speaker 2: of the year. The only other thing to say is

1317
01:22:36,733 --> 01:22:38,893
Speaker 2: if you'd like to write to us lat at news

1318
01:22:38,893 --> 01:22:41,693
Speaker 2: Talks ATB dot co dot nz or Carolyn with a

1319
01:22:41,853 --> 01:22:45,013
Speaker 2: y at news Talks ATB dot co dot NZID We

1320
01:22:45,053 --> 01:22:48,293
Speaker 2: shall return in a few days with sixty eight. Until then,

1321
01:22:48,653 --> 01:22:51,333
Speaker 2: as always, thank you for listening and we'll talk soon.

1322
01:22:59,133 --> 01:23:02,773
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talks at b Listen

1323
01:23:02,853 --> 01:23:05,813
Speaker 1: live on air or online, and keep our shows with

1324
01:23:05,893 --> 01:23:09,053
Speaker 1: you wherever you go with our podcasts on hard radio