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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks EDB. Follow

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Speaker 1: this and our Wide Ranger podcast now on iHeartRadio. It's

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Speaker 1: time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all the information,

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Speaker 1: all the debates, Now the lighton Smith podcast powered by

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Speaker 1: Newstalks EDB.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to podcast three hundred and seven for October twenty

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Speaker 2: two to twenty twenty five. A few days ago, I

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Speaker 2: was driving from A to B as you do, and

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Speaker 2: I heard a conversation on an American talk show. The

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Speaker 2: host was talking with a young, Youngish woman on events

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Speaker 2: taking place in diverse parts of the world. Now, she

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Speaker 2: had an international accent, but I couldn't place it, but

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Speaker 2: I did pick up some English twang. Anyway, My attention

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Speaker 2: peaked when she said Western culture is basically collapsing across Europe,

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Speaker 2: and I wouldn't be surprised if it's gone within the

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Speaker 2: next ten years. Later I tracked it down. It wasn't difficult.

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Speaker 2: Her name is k Hill, or if you like, there's

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Speaker 2: a smythe in the middle, not hyphenated, just Kay smythe Hill.

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Speaker 2: But obviously this was intriguing. Now it made me think

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Speaker 2: immediately of some literature that I have with regard to

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Speaker 2: what she was referring to. She was referring to, of course,

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Speaker 2: the number of people from particularly Africa and surrounding Arabian countries, etc.

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Speaker 2: Pouring into Europe and into Britain and into other parts

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Speaker 2: of the world, but specifically where she was nominating, and

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Speaker 2: that was Europe. The book that I grasped first of

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Speaker 2: all when I got home was A Delectable Lie by

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Speaker 2: salem Monsieur, a liberal repudiation of multiculturalism. Now, the interesting

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Speaker 2: thing about this book, if you haven't heard of it,

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Speaker 2: is that Salem Monsour as a professor when he wrote this. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: in twenty eleven it was published, is professor of political

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Speaker 2: science at the University of Western Ontario in London, Ontario.

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Speaker 2: And here is an outtake on the back cover explaining

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Speaker 2: where is that. My point is that although multiculturalism once

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Speaker 2: seemed a very good idea, at least politicians and others

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Speaker 2: smitten with the ambition for unity, it is increasingly shown

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Speaker 2: to be a lie, a delectable lie perhaps, yet a

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Speaker 2: lie nevertheless, a lie that is destructive of the West's

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Speaker 2: liberal democratic heritage tradition and values based on individual rights

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Speaker 2: and freedoms. This could have been foretold. As Indeed, those

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Speaker 2: philosophers and historians of ideas who viewed freedom as immeasurably

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Speaker 2: more important than equality in the development of the West

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Speaker 2: did foretell. They admonished people against the temptation to abridge

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Speaker 2: freedom in pursuit of equality. Now, without trying to be

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Speaker 2: dramatic about it, if we're all honest with ourselves, we'd

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Speaker 2: admit that there are crises confronting the free world. And

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Speaker 2: those crises are made up by many elements, many of

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Speaker 2: them familiar to us, some not so much. Now in

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Speaker 2: no particular order, mass migration of the not so legal kind,

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Speaker 2: accompanied by the unwillingness of those charged with protecting the

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Speaker 2: populations who elected them to do so, protecting their borders,

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Speaker 2: their shipping lanes, hospital systems, education, and not to forget

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Speaker 2: the country's financial system. And of course there is so

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Speaker 2: much more. And in the words of law professor James Allen,

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Speaker 2: there are too many politicians who are gutless. He was

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Speaker 2: referring specifically in making that statement to the Australian Liberal Party,

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Speaker 2: but I think it's more widespread than that, and I

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Speaker 2: don't think i'd meet much disagreement from most of you

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Speaker 2: now it just so happens. That's Nick Cator, with whom

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Speaker 2: we have discussed so many topics over the years with

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Speaker 2: such great insight, has written an essay multiculturalisms Berlin Wall moment.

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Speaker 2: It's an extremely good piece and we shall discuss it

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Speaker 2: along with other areas of current concern right after a

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Speaker 2: short break. Liverrix is an antihistamine made in Switzerland to

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Speaker 2: the highest quality. Leverrix relieves hay fever in skin, allergies

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Speaker 2: or itchy skin. It's a dual action antihistamine and has

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Speaker 2: a unique nasal decongestent action. It's fast acting for fast

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Speaker 2: relief and it works in under an hour and lasts

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Speaker 2: for over twenty four hours. Lebrix is a tiny tablet

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Speaker 2: that unblocks the nose, deals with itchy eyes, and stops sneezing.

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Speaker 2: Lebrix is an antihistamine made in Switzerland to the highest quantity.

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Speaker 2: So next time you're in need of an effective antihistamine,

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Speaker 2: call into the pharmacy and ask for Liverrix lv Rix

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Speaker 2: levrix and always read the label. Takes directed and if

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Speaker 2: symptoms persist, see your health professional. Farmer Broker Auckland Freedom

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Speaker 2: is fragile and man's wish to be free is undermined

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Speaker 2: by ideas that mobilize the collective against the individual. In

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Speaker 2: our world in the early years of the twenty first century,

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Speaker 2: freedom remains more or less confined to one part of

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Speaker 2: the world, even as most people everywhere desire it. Only

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Speaker 2: in the West, that is, countries of Western Europe, the

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Speaker 2: United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. We find people

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Speaker 2: enjoy freedom as individual rights, and any curtailment of these

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Speaker 2: protected rights may only occur in accordance with constitutional requirements.

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Speaker 2: But since freedom is the distinguishing feature of the West,

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Speaker 2: the assault on freedom has been ferocious in the West,

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Speaker 2: as were those mounted by the twin forces of totalitarianism,

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Speaker 2: fascism or Nazism and Soviet communism in the last century.

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Speaker 2: In the new century, the West is confronted with a

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Speaker 2: new or third challenge of totalitarianism in the form of

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Speaker 2: Islamism and its asymmetrical assault on liberal democracy, increasingly since

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Speaker 2: the terrorist attack of September eleven, two thousand and one

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Speaker 2: against the United States. Now that's a quote from the

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Speaker 2: introduction to the book Delectable Lie that I've mentioned more

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Speaker 2: than once over time. Delectable Lie, a liberal repudiation of multiculturalism,

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Speaker 2: written by Salem Manser, who himself as a Muslim. When

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Speaker 2: he wrote this, and that was published in twenty eleven,

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Speaker 2: was at the University of Western Ontario in London, Ontario.

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Speaker 2: And the reason that I've quoted you that is because

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Speaker 2: the discussion that's about to follow with Nick Kata, with

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Speaker 2: whom we are all familiar, is on precisely that topic.

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Speaker 2: The article he wrote for for Quadrant magazine is the

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Speaker 2: longest one I've seen for a long time, if not ever,

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Speaker 2: Multiculturalism's Berlin Wall moments. And it is with great pleasure

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Speaker 2: that I say, in Nicotas, I think it's been six months,

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Speaker 2: so it's time that we did this, and you provided

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Speaker 2: me with the purpose for doing it. Are you well?

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Speaker 3: Thanks? Like, yeah, I'm well, good to be talking to you.

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Speaker 3: I think last time we talked was in the aftermath

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Speaker 3: of the election here Ansha. I was probably pretty gloomy

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Speaker 3: at the time, but yeah, times move on. We're in

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Speaker 3: a new era, that's for sure.

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Speaker 2: Would you say fortunately or unfortunately a new era?

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Speaker 3: I will there's so much in Australia, as indeed in

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Speaker 3: the rest of the world that's troubling at the moment economically,

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Speaker 3: in terms of strategically, in terms of our national security,

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Speaker 3: in terms of world trade, and particularly I think in

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Speaker 3: terms of our culture, how and what effect that has

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Speaker 3: on the social fabric. You know, people seem to be

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Speaker 3: intensely antagonistic towards one another at the moment over certain issues,

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Speaker 3: and we've got here. I don't know how it is

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Speaker 3: in New Zealand, but every weekend there'll be demonstrations on

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Speaker 3: the streets at Melbourne and Sydney. There was one at

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Speaker 3: the weekend where there were clash between left wing so

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Speaker 3: called anti racist protesters and a group that were protesting

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Speaker 3: or standing up for Australian values and police had to intervene.

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Speaker 3: It was it's all pretty ugly, latent and this is

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Speaker 3: new for me in Australia. And of course there've always

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Speaker 3: been people take to the streets to say things, but

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Speaker 3: the intensity of this, the fact that we don't seem

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Speaker 3: to be able to work out our differences in other

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Speaker 3: forum at the moment, it is. Yeah, that's why I

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Speaker 3: think it's a new era we're entering.

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Speaker 2: And it's worthy of the analysis that you've given and

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Speaker 2: more to follow. I would imagine I might just add

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Speaker 2: before we go on that Nick has changed the direction

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Speaker 2: in a couple of couple of areas. He is, of

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Speaker 2: course a journalist and author, a columnist. He's a senior fellow,

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Speaker 2: specifically a senior Fellow at the Menzies Research Center, and

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Speaker 2: he writes now copiously for Quadrant magazine, a weekly column

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Speaker 2: with The Australian, where he worked for some considerable time,

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Speaker 2: and also on substack. May I just inquire about substack

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Speaker 2: as to how that's taken off.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's gone very well. I presume most of your

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Speaker 3: listeners would be familiar with it. It's a great platform

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Speaker 3: for writers like me. He just want to be able

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Speaker 3: to talk directly to readers. One of the things about

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Speaker 3: it is it's a great leveler, right If you don't

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Speaker 3: if people aren't subscribing to you a substack, then you

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Speaker 3: know you're not doing very well. But fortunately I've had

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Speaker 3: quite quite a large number of people subscribe, some who

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Speaker 3: actually you are paid subscribers. So that for me is

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Speaker 3: the endorsement I need to suggest that I'm actually doing

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Speaker 3: something useful.

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Speaker 2: You open up with the situation in Australia and then

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Speaker 2: you move on to well pretty quickly you include Canada

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Speaker 2: and you make reference to Canadian Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau,

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Speaker 2: the first introduced multiculturalism in nineteen seventy one. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: the purpose was what.

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Speaker 3: Well, the purpose was to overcome a little local difficulty

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Speaker 3: had over biculturalism. Canada had declared itself a bicultural nation,

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Speaker 3: i think in the late sixties to accommodate the fact,

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Speaker 3: of course that it's a dual language country, two traditions,

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Speaker 3: two languages coming together into one Canada. So that was

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Speaker 3: a big push in the late sixties early seventies they

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Speaker 3: established that. But then other groups, particularly the Native Canadians,

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Speaker 3: the people the descendants of the people who are there

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Speaker 3: from the original tribes, plus some of the other ethnic groups,

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Speaker 3: particularly Ukrainians. They had a particularly large number of Ukrainians

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Speaker 3: were saying, well, what about us, aren't we part of

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Speaker 3: this Canada experiment. So it was a sort of workaround

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Speaker 3: really that Pierre Trudeau came up with this idea of multiculturalism,

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Speaker 3: and he described Canada as a multicultural country and then said,

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Speaker 3: you know, we have no culture. We are multicultural. And

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Speaker 3: there was only one person who stood up and said

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Speaker 3: at the time, hang on, that's the problem. Surely, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: we can have people from all over the world or whatever.

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Speaker 3: That's fine, but they all have to sort of you know,

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Speaker 3: the thing they all have to unite around is being Canadian.

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Speaker 3: And the person who did that was actually somebody from Quebec,

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Speaker 3: you know, a French speaking Canadian who said, look, we

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Speaker 3: have a culture here and it's a combination of the

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Speaker 3: British and the French, and we've all come together and

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Speaker 3: we all know what it means and we need to

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Speaker 3: sign up for it. So, at the very birth of multiculturalism,

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Speaker 3: because the word hadn't really been used before that point,

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Speaker 3: we have this tension. Yes, we come from lots of

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Speaker 3: different parts of the world with different colors, we have

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Speaker 3: different cultures, different religious et cetera, et cetera. But something

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Speaker 3: has to bind us together as Canadians or Australians or

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Speaker 3: New Zealanders, and that idea of an overall, overarching loyalty

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Speaker 3: to your country as a citizen of your country is

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Speaker 3: put at risk. It's an attention there once you have

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Speaker 3: this idea of multiculturalism. So that's the origin of it,

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Speaker 3: and it's not a very noble origin for multiculturalism. But

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Speaker 3: then it was adopted here in nineteen seventy three by

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Speaker 3: Gough Whitlam.

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Speaker 2: Just before you just before you pick up with Whitlam

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Speaker 2: another quote, and I'll keep it short, from the aforementioned book.

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Speaker 2: Sometime in the mid nineteen nineties, when Pierre Trudeau made

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Speaker 2: a rare visit to the Parliament in Ottawa, the Speaker

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Speaker 2: of the House of Commons arranged for a private luncheon

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Speaker 2: attended by a dozen selectively invited Liberal members. Each guest

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Speaker 2: was given the opporunity to pose one question to the

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Speaker 2: former Prime Minister. Chris Cobb, writing in The Ottawa Citizen

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Speaker 2: nearly a decade later, recalled the exchange between Trudeau and

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Speaker 2: the invited guests. After several relatively routine questions. Former Liberal

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Speaker 2: MP John Brydon remembered asking Trudeau about the multiculturalism policy

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Speaker 2: his government introduced in the early nineteen seventies. Brydon asked,

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Speaker 2: mister Trudeau, you were one of the key architects of multiculturalism,

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Speaker 2: and now we're in a situation. Keep in mind, this

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Speaker 2: was some time ago, and now we're in a situation

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Speaker 2: where many newcomers to Canada consider their ethnicity before being Canadian.

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Speaker 2: Is this the outcome you wanted. There was silence around

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Speaker 2: the table as the former Prime Minister thought before replying, no,

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Speaker 2: this is not what I wanted.

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Speaker 3: The question niled it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the the question is, if that's the case, why

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Speaker 2: did it continue. Do you think the manner that it has.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think because it became bureaucratized. And this is

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Speaker 3: my central critique of multiculturalism. You know, of course we

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Speaker 3: are in one sense of multicultural country here in Australia,

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Speaker 3: as you are, and that's fine. And we had a

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Speaker 3: you know, we had a very highly racially discriminatory immigration

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Speaker 3: policy here up until the mid sixties and that had

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Speaker 3: to end clearly. You know, it's a different kind of

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Speaker 3: a world and based fundamentally as liberals, as human beings,

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Speaker 3: we think every human being deserves respect. We abide by

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Speaker 3: the Martin Luther King Junior idea that it's not the

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Speaker 3: color of your skin, but the content of your content

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Speaker 3: of your character. So yeah, so we agree with all that,

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Speaker 3: and we have a country here with people from almost

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Speaker 3: every country in the world, if not every country in

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Speaker 3: the world. In Australia it's a very as you know,

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Speaker 3: very diverse country. Now, not as diverse as some people

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Speaker 3: say it's still particularly in out of suburban and rural

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Speaker 3: and regional Australia, it's still very much recognizable as an

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Speaker 3: Anglo Saxon country. But in other areas, But then, how

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Speaker 3: do you deal with the tension between that. People obviously

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Speaker 3: have some attachment to their old country and their old ways,

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Speaker 3: but you want them to be first and four worst

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Speaker 3: Australian And I think that's worked pretty well up until now.

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Speaker 3: But they're always going to be tensions eventually, and that's

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Speaker 3: what we're seeing now between people who see themselves primarily

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Speaker 3: as Palestinian or Arabic or whatever, and as a Muslim

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Speaker 3: and secondarily as somebody who's just in Australia as a

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Speaker 3: sort of flager convenience. Is happening too in other groups.

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Speaker 3: I think it always was going to happen when people

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Speaker 3: arrive in such quantities that they can form separate communities,

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Speaker 3: which you couldn't really do in the seventies and early eighties.

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Speaker 3: Here you know the Greeks and Italians that were forced

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Speaker 3: to integrate, to learn the language, and just become as

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Speaker 3: busy as they could, you know, in order to get by.

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Speaker 3: But now you have such a large proportion of Arabic

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Speaker 3: speaking Australians and increasingly Hindu and places from the Indian

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Speaker 3: subcontinent and of course Chinese that they can almost exist

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Speaker 3: within that little sub community. And that's not a good thing.

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Speaker 3: So how do we overcome that with a bureaucratic system

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Speaker 3: like we've got now? Sort of state imposed harmony I

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Speaker 3: call it. It's very difficult to make that work. It

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Speaker 3: has to come from the bottom up. It has to

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Speaker 3: be ordinary decent people, as most people are willing just

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Speaker 3: to get on with their neighbors, accept them as they

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Speaker 3: find them, and just do what they have to do

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Speaker 3: to get along.

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Speaker 2: All right, So how much can you tell us about

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Speaker 2: entry into Australia with regard to requirements for becoming a

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Speaker 2: permanent For example, it used to be that English was

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Speaker 2: a language that you had to learn, and I think

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Speaker 2: you just hinted at there a short while ago, but

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Speaker 2: I don't know that that exists anymore.

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Speaker 3: Doesn't There still are English language requirements for things like

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Speaker 3: working visas, and I think student visas too. Rightly, so

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Speaker 3: you're coming as a student, you've got to be as

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Speaker 3: big English. But the level of that requirement is not

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Speaker 3: particularly high. I looked at the grade there's an international

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Speaker 3: grading system which gives you an idea of the proficiency.

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Speaker 3: And I recognize that my level of Spanish. If I

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Speaker 3: was the equivalent level of English coming into Australia, I

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Speaker 3: would be able to get in as an English speaker. Well,

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Speaker 3: you know, I can get by in Spanish. I can

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Speaker 3: talk to taxi drivers or ordered food, but I'm not.

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Speaker 3: It's hardly fluent in it, you know. So that alerted

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Speaker 3: me to the fact that we don't press that anymore.

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Speaker 3: There's another big problem that's happened to you. I say,

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Speaker 3: have problem, but another big change that's happened in the

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Speaker 3: last twenty years that nobody's noticed, nobody's talked about, and

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Speaker 3: that is the way in which you arrive. It used

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Speaker 3: to be. And I say this out of experience as

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Speaker 3: somebody who came to Australia in nineteen eighty nine from Britain.

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Speaker 3: I had to turn up at the Australian High Commission

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Speaker 3: in London, fill in the forms. I had to go

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Speaker 3: and see approved doctor and have a health checked and

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Speaker 3: do all that offshore before I came. And then with

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Speaker 3: the visa, you know, wait for the little brown envelope

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Speaker 3: to come, hoping it would be yes, I've got the

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Speaker 3: visa stamp in my passport and off we went. Nowadays,

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Speaker 3: only a minority of people who come to this country

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Speaker 3: apply offshore. Most of the people who are becoming permanent

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Speaker 3: citizens in this country come on temporary visas of one

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Speaker 3: sword or another, a work visa, skills visa typically or

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Speaker 3: increasingly student visas. Then they just change their luck on shore.

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Speaker 3: And that does alter the pattern of migration hugely. And

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Speaker 3: I also think attachment of the because when the old

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Speaker 3: pattern where you'd migrate, you'd make a conscious decision of migrate,

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Speaker 3: go to the other side of the world and pack

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Speaker 3: up all your possessions. That's a commitment from day one,

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Speaker 3: even before you formally become an Australian citizen, you are

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Speaker 3: committed to this place. I'm not sure that that same

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Speaker 3: altitude applies now, and you get a lot of people

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Speaker 3: now chance their luck on a student visa, thinking well,

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Speaker 3: I'll apply for a permanent visa after that, and even

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Speaker 3: if I don't get it, the bureaucratic process is so

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Speaker 3: slow that I'll probably get at least three or four

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Speaker 3: extra years in Australia working in Australia. And people are

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Speaker 3: doing that and that's what's increasing. The numbers of migrancy

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Speaker 3: is so substantially it's out of control. At this point,

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Speaker 3: the government really has no control on the number of

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Speaker 3: non Australian citizens in this country. It's just become totally

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Speaker 3: controlled by the bureaucracy. And I wanted to write a piece,

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Speaker 3: actually I'm working on it, which says we still have

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Speaker 3: a skilled migration policy enforced in this country, but the

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Speaker 3: principal skill that you need is navigating the system and

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Speaker 3: getting round all the forms in order to get here.

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Speaker 3: It's not actually a useful skill.

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Speaker 2: So if the bureaucracy is running the business, where's democraphy.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's right. I mean, we've had numbers here four

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Speaker 3: hundred thousand plus I think more than well over a

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Speaker 3: million net overseas arrivals since this government came to power

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Speaker 3: three years ago. And this is in the country of

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Speaker 3: We're now twenty seven million, going twenty eight. We just

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Speaker 3: can't you just physically cannot accommodate that number of people

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Speaker 3: in that short space of time. And it's producing real

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Speaker 3: pressure on housing prices obviously, because they've all got to

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Speaker 3: live somewhere. Our plus roads, plus schools and changing the

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Speaker 3: nature of some parts of our city quite dramatically, particularly

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Speaker 3: this influx, huge influx of students. So you know, downtown

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Speaker 3: Sydney on a Saturday night, you feel like you're in

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Speaker 3: Hong Kong. I'm most thanks a bad thing. But it's

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Speaker 3: a distinct change, because I love Hong Kong. But it's

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Speaker 3: a distinct change from what it was, you know. And

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Speaker 3: this is all happened suddenly. And add on top of

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Speaker 3: that the Palestinian protest movement, which is you know, a

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Speaker 3: combination of sort of extremist g hardist Muslims from the

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Speaker 3: radicalized mosques in some parts of Sydney and Melbourne, plus

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Speaker 3: some rat bag you know, lefties from the university. It's

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Speaker 3: been ugly, very ugly, and the sort of hate and

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Speaker 3: the attacks on the Jewish community in particular, we had

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Speaker 3: a mosque, sorry, a synagogue that was set fire to

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Speaker 3: in Melbourne. We've had other attacks on Jewish property and

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Speaker 3: the community feels really under threat. We're going now, that's

351
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Speaker 3: not the sort of soft we're all in this together

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Speaker 3: multiculturalism we thought we'd signed up for, and that's what's

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Speaker 3: causing the tension in the community. Now, this is questioning,

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Speaker 3: not just the numbers, not just the quantum, but the

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Speaker 3: quality of the migrants.

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Speaker 2: And there is no way of getting rid of those

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Speaker 2: offenders who should be got rid of. Am I right.

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Speaker 3: Well, still I think they could do more, you know,

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Speaker 3: I mean I think that they they you know, up

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Speaker 3: until the point where somebody actually becomes a citizen of

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Speaker 3: this country makes that commitment, and that's I think a

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Speaker 3: four year process, now a minimum four year process. Then yeah,

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Speaker 3: you misbehave you break the law. You're not behaving as

364
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Speaker 3: we think we want people to behave. You're you're stirring

365
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Speaker 3: up racial hatred against against the Jewish people. No, you go,

366
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Speaker 3: you're out. You're out on your ear. But because we

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Speaker 3: don't enforce it like that, we don't and we should

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Speaker 3: should be much much more strict and that way, and that.

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Speaker 2: Was that was my and that was my point. Should

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Speaker 2: be isn't doing it? Why? And how has it happened

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Speaker 2: that those people who should be aren't.

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Speaker 3: Because the people in charge, the elite, and this goes

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Speaker 3: right through the system, from politicians, bureaucrats, police, immigration department,

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Speaker 3: the courts. They tend to be of the view that, oh,

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Speaker 3: diversity is a good thing, and to be critical of

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Speaker 3: the number of migrants or the type of migrants is

377
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Speaker 3: a racist thing to do. And it's not particularly the numbers.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not saying I'm not saying at all.

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Speaker 3: You know, we've got too many Indians or New Zealanders,

380
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Speaker 3: and New Zealanders, of course, is a growing category with

381
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Speaker 3: the economy in New Zealand going the way it is,

382
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Speaker 3: so I'm not saying that at all. There's just too

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Speaker 3: many full stops, so that surely cannot be a racist argument.

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Speaker 3: It's a sort of discussion that we had, you know,

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Speaker 3: back between the war, between the end of the war

386
00:23:58,093 --> 00:24:01,013
Speaker 3: and round about two thousand and five, we had an average,

387
00:24:01,493 --> 00:24:06,253
Speaker 3: pretty steady average of about ninety thousand migrants a year. Now,

388
00:24:06,293 --> 00:24:09,653
Speaker 3: the official quota is, I said, one hundred and eighty,

389
00:24:09,933 --> 00:24:12,133
Speaker 3: but the real total, that's all those who end up

390
00:24:12,213 --> 00:24:14,813
Speaker 3: here one way or another on temporary visas and just

391
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Speaker 3: finding one or another, is probably more like four hundred thousand.

392
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Speaker 3: So that's four times the level that prevailed for most

393
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Speaker 3: of the post war period. It is just unsustainable. But

394
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Speaker 3: the elite just don't recognize this, as they don't in Britain,

395
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Speaker 3: you know, as they don't in much of Europe. You know,

396
00:24:34,693 --> 00:24:36,693
Speaker 3: they're all trying to say, oh, it's all fine, you know,

397
00:24:36,733 --> 00:24:40,333
Speaker 3: we'll all get along, but we're not, and we can't

398
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Speaker 3: when once you start getting huge numbers of people, large

399
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Speaker 3: substantial numbers of people who don't actually accept Australian values

400
00:24:49,093 --> 00:24:53,453
Speaker 3: as they're over, who are principles who are culturally different indeed,

401
00:24:53,693 --> 00:25:00,173
Speaker 3: indeed cultural ism. Yeah, and it's not anti Islam as such.

402
00:25:00,253 --> 00:25:03,693
Speaker 3: Really it's anti Islam. It's the extreme version. And I

403
00:25:03,813 --> 00:25:06,853
Speaker 3: became very acutely aware of this recently when I've become

404
00:25:06,933 --> 00:25:09,973
Speaker 3: very good friends with a a chap who stood for

405
00:25:10,013 --> 00:25:12,653
Speaker 3: the Liberal Party in the seat of Werra were in

406
00:25:12,773 --> 00:25:17,133
Speaker 3: far western Sydney. He's a Muslim. He's a Muslim, and

407
00:25:17,173 --> 00:25:19,173
Speaker 3: I went up there and I said, well, what's the

408
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Speaker 3: big thing on the Muslim for the Muslim community, what's

409
00:25:22,333 --> 00:25:23,933
Speaker 3: the big issue now? And he looked to me as

410
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Speaker 3: if I were stupid and said, will cost a living,

411
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Speaker 3: of course, And he reminded me that the vast majority

412
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Speaker 3: of Muslims in this country do want to just build businesses,

413
00:25:35,133 --> 00:25:38,213
Speaker 3: bring their families up, get their kids educated. They're the

414
00:25:38,253 --> 00:25:41,533
Speaker 3: same as everybody else. But there is this small probably

415
00:25:41,613 --> 00:25:47,973
Speaker 3: ten percent fifteen percent max. Who are radical who who

416
00:25:48,333 --> 00:25:51,693
Speaker 3: think that they're fighting out the guards of war by

417
00:25:51,733 --> 00:25:56,413
Speaker 3: extension here in Australia that go to a small number

418
00:25:56,413 --> 00:26:01,973
Speaker 3: of mosques in places like Bankstown. That's your problem and

419
00:26:02,053 --> 00:26:05,013
Speaker 3: so it's no easy solution to it. Well, when you

420
00:26:05,013 --> 00:26:05,773
Speaker 3: should start.

421
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Speaker 2: When you say that's the problem and you talk to

422
00:26:08,693 --> 00:26:12,733
Speaker 2: percentages ten maybe fifteen percent, that means the more that

423
00:26:12,893 --> 00:26:17,093
Speaker 2: come in, the greater the number, even if the statistics

424
00:26:17,133 --> 00:26:19,573
Speaker 2: say the same the percentages.

425
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Speaker 3: Well, that's right, particularly when you get a soft headed

426
00:26:21,773 --> 00:26:25,333
Speaker 3: government like this current one, which actually went out and

427
00:26:25,373 --> 00:26:30,413
Speaker 3: said we're taking in two thousand Palestinian refugees and you go,

428
00:26:31,173 --> 00:26:34,013
Speaker 3: what like, how are you going to screen them? You know,

429
00:26:34,053 --> 00:26:39,093
Speaker 3: we know the indoctrination that goes on from schools onwards

430
00:26:39,293 --> 00:26:42,133
Speaker 3: in that part of the world, the anti Israel hatred,

431
00:26:42,133 --> 00:26:47,293
Speaker 3: that's just reinforcing of these ancient grievances. Seems to me

432
00:26:48,133 --> 00:26:50,853
Speaker 3: you'd be very lucky to get somebody coming here from

433
00:26:50,893 --> 00:26:53,293
Speaker 3: Palestine who's not in some way tainted by that. He

434
00:26:53,333 --> 00:26:56,853
Speaker 3: doesn't have that worldview. So why, I mean, it's a

435
00:26:56,893 --> 00:26:59,893
Speaker 3: mystery to me. Why the not only that, but the

436
00:27:00,413 --> 00:27:05,733
Speaker 3: Minister for Immigration, Tony Burke was actually photographed at Sydney

437
00:27:05,773 --> 00:27:09,493
Speaker 3: Airport welcoming these people into the country. Strangely enough, he

438
00:27:09,493 --> 00:27:12,573
Speaker 3: didn't want to publicize that. But his own electorate has

439
00:27:13,293 --> 00:27:17,013
Speaker 3: somewhere around twenty five percent of his electorate is Muslim,

440
00:27:17,133 --> 00:27:20,133
Speaker 3: so he's heavily invested in this at an electoral level too.

441
00:27:20,293 --> 00:27:27,893
Speaker 3: So it's just it's a real tension in the community

442
00:27:28,493 --> 00:27:31,293
Speaker 3: and none of the mains, none of the mainstream parties

443
00:27:31,973 --> 00:27:35,773
Speaker 3: are taking this seriously in my view, not the Coalition,

444
00:27:36,493 --> 00:27:39,933
Speaker 3: not the Liberal Party, at least a lot in the

445
00:27:39,933 --> 00:27:42,253
Speaker 3: Liberal Party who are and want to make this an

446
00:27:42,253 --> 00:27:44,733
Speaker 3: issue that they're being shut down by the others as say,

447
00:27:45,093 --> 00:27:47,453
Speaker 3: you know, we don't want to be interpreted as a racist,

448
00:27:48,333 --> 00:27:50,893
Speaker 3: but it's not racist to stand up for Australia or

449
00:27:50,933 --> 00:27:54,893
Speaker 3: Australian values, and it's not racist to say we want

450
00:27:54,933 --> 00:27:57,613
Speaker 3: people to come here, but only if they have the

451
00:27:57,653 --> 00:28:00,613
Speaker 3: opportunity to thrive and become part of the community, because

452
00:28:00,653 --> 00:28:03,053
Speaker 3: that helps Australia in the long run. You know, you

453
00:28:03,133 --> 00:28:04,853
Speaker 3: don't want them to hear if they're just going to be,

454
00:28:05,573 --> 00:28:07,853
Speaker 3: if they just think they're here just as a flag

455
00:28:07,893 --> 00:28:11,733
Speaker 3: of convenients and in their heads they're still back in Gaza.

456
00:28:11,933 --> 00:28:14,213
Speaker 2: Well, it was Jim Allen, wasn't it who wrote a

457
00:28:14,773 --> 00:28:20,853
Speaker 2: spectator piece that there was headlined something like liberal why

458
00:28:22,013 --> 00:28:25,733
Speaker 2: Liberal MPs are gutless? Or once to that effect.

459
00:28:26,133 --> 00:28:31,093
Speaker 3: You recall that, yes, I do as always Jim. Jim

460
00:28:31,213 --> 00:28:34,293
Speaker 3: very outspoken on these things and says things, calls a

461
00:28:34,333 --> 00:28:38,653
Speaker 3: spade a spade. It's certainly not true that all Liberal

462
00:28:38,733 --> 00:28:42,333
Speaker 3: MPs are gutless. You've had recently Andrew Hast to you.

463
00:28:42,453 --> 00:28:44,933
Speaker 3: I think many people in New Zealand would have heard

464
00:28:44,933 --> 00:28:49,613
Speaker 3: of very promising member of the Liberal Party, a man

465
00:28:49,653 --> 00:28:53,773
Speaker 3: a great conviction and faith. Former sas officer and he

466
00:28:54,373 --> 00:28:59,053
Speaker 3: was Home Affairs spokesman in the opposition here. He resigned

467
00:28:59,053 --> 00:29:01,533
Speaker 3: that role because he wanted to speak out on immigration

468
00:29:01,613 --> 00:29:04,253
Speaker 3: and he'd been told by the leader that that wasn't

469
00:29:04,293 --> 00:29:06,253
Speaker 3: part of his portfoilu and he had to keep quiet. Well,

470
00:29:06,253 --> 00:29:09,733
Speaker 3: he feels so strongly about it. A lot of us do.

471
00:29:10,893 --> 00:29:17,133
Speaker 3: But there is this elite eastern suburb mentality in Sydney

472
00:29:17,173 --> 00:29:20,013
Speaker 3: that says, oh, everything's going swimmingly and we don't want to.

473
00:29:20,853 --> 00:29:22,693
Speaker 3: You know, we'd be a better country if we were

474
00:29:22,693 --> 00:29:26,613
Speaker 3: more diverse, if we had different more restaurants, of selling

475
00:29:26,653 --> 00:29:28,893
Speaker 3: different kinds of food. It's that kind of soft headed

476
00:29:28,973 --> 00:29:33,173
Speaker 3: view that really started in the early nineteen seventies that

477
00:29:33,373 --> 00:29:36,493
Speaker 3: you know, remember that Coca Cola ad which I mentioned

478
00:29:36,573 --> 00:29:39,893
Speaker 3: in that article, I like to teach the world to sing.

479
00:29:40,853 --> 00:29:44,173
Speaker 3: That was the sentiment in nineteen seventy one when Multiculturalist

480
00:29:44,333 --> 00:29:46,653
Speaker 3: was born. You know that we can all be living

481
00:29:46,813 --> 00:29:50,053
Speaker 3: perfect harmony. And it was the same year John Lennin

482
00:29:50,133 --> 00:29:54,293
Speaker 3: brought out Imagine. That kind of view is very strong then.

483
00:29:54,333 --> 00:29:56,253
Speaker 3: But I think we realized that we actually need to

484
00:29:56,253 --> 00:29:58,813
Speaker 3: be a little bit more hard headed and recognized that

485
00:29:59,013 --> 00:30:01,893
Speaker 3: Australia is Australia and New Zealand is New Zealand because

486
00:30:01,933 --> 00:30:05,653
Speaker 3: of its traditions, because of the people who came here

487
00:30:05,733 --> 00:30:07,573
Speaker 3: and the traditions they brought with them, and they were

488
00:30:07,653 --> 00:30:10,613
Speaker 3: very good tradition, very good indeed. And it doesn't mean

489
00:30:10,653 --> 00:30:14,813
Speaker 3: to say we're going to remain just a purely white

490
00:30:14,853 --> 00:30:18,053
Speaker 3: Anglo Saxon country, but it does mean we need to

491
00:30:18,093 --> 00:30:21,253
Speaker 3: recognize that everybody comes here, it should recognize those basic

492
00:30:21,333 --> 00:30:26,293
Speaker 3: principles of liberty, democracy, of treating everybody with equal respect,

493
00:30:26,693 --> 00:30:29,413
Speaker 3: because that's what made our countries great and it's what

494
00:30:29,453 --> 00:30:32,693
Speaker 3: will destroy our countries if we allow it that to deteriorate.

495
00:30:33,493 --> 00:30:36,613
Speaker 2: So, going back to your advertising with Coke, would you

496
00:30:36,693 --> 00:30:40,413
Speaker 2: say that the approach that Coke took at that point,

497
00:30:41,533 --> 00:30:45,173
Speaker 2: for whatever reason it was possibly more than one, was

498
00:30:45,613 --> 00:30:46,733
Speaker 2: a stupid decision.

499
00:30:47,213 --> 00:30:50,133
Speaker 3: Well, and commercially I think that went very well for them.

500
00:30:50,733 --> 00:30:53,853
Speaker 3: It was screened around the world and really helped their

501
00:30:53,853 --> 00:30:56,613
Speaker 3: brand along because people. Funnily enough, you know, the Coke

502
00:30:56,693 --> 00:30:58,573
Speaker 3: Cony came up towards the end of the abb It

503
00:30:58,613 --> 00:31:03,213
Speaker 3: was all about harmony and whatever. People remember it and

504
00:31:03,253 --> 00:31:06,613
Speaker 3: it became a hit song thing that the seekers was

505
00:31:06,653 --> 00:31:09,493
Speaker 3: it was recording I don't recall, became a number one song,

506
00:31:09,533 --> 00:31:12,693
Speaker 3: certainly in Britain, probably here too. Yeah, I know that

507
00:31:12,853 --> 00:31:14,653
Speaker 3: hit the mood of the time because you go back

508
00:31:14,693 --> 00:31:18,853
Speaker 3: to seventy one. Well, it's the Vietnam War is playing out,

509
00:31:19,093 --> 00:31:22,613
Speaker 3: it's posts the Ted Offensive. Everybody's thinking that it was a

510
00:31:22,653 --> 00:31:26,893
Speaker 3: bit of a mistake. Soldiers are getting Americans are getting killed,

511
00:31:27,053 --> 00:31:29,573
Speaker 3: and it was a feeling that, you know, we should

512
00:31:29,613 --> 00:31:31,693
Speaker 3: have peace and live in harmony and that, plus the

513
00:31:31,693 --> 00:31:35,653
Speaker 3: Cold War was going on. But that moment I think

514
00:31:35,733 --> 00:31:39,133
Speaker 3: has passed. The other sentiment which comes in. Then you

515
00:31:39,133 --> 00:31:41,733
Speaker 3: see it very much at that time, the idea that we,

516
00:31:42,053 --> 00:31:45,213
Speaker 3: you know, we're citizens, we're citizens of the world. We're

517
00:31:45,213 --> 00:31:47,293
Speaker 3: not citizens of a particular country. You know, we live

518
00:31:47,333 --> 00:31:53,213
Speaker 3: in a borderless world. That kind of fantastical idea creeps

519
00:31:53,293 --> 00:31:56,613
Speaker 3: in and is still there very much strongly amongst some

520
00:31:56,653 --> 00:31:59,973
Speaker 3: of the left leaning progressive elite in our countries. They

521
00:31:59,973 --> 00:32:02,733
Speaker 3: think we should have open borders. Well, I think a

522
00:32:02,773 --> 00:32:04,333
Speaker 3: lot of the rest of us have realized that we

523
00:32:04,373 --> 00:32:06,773
Speaker 3: can't do that. You do need borders, you do need

524
00:32:07,893 --> 00:32:11,333
Speaker 3: sovereign borders in which the people who live in that

525
00:32:11,373 --> 00:32:15,493
Speaker 3: country can determine, as John Howard said, we determine who

526
00:32:15,533 --> 00:32:18,573
Speaker 3: comes to this country and the circumstances in which they come.

527
00:32:19,573 --> 00:32:22,773
Speaker 2: But should it be the elite or should it be

528
00:32:22,813 --> 00:32:25,253
Speaker 2: the population of the country who decides.

529
00:32:25,093 --> 00:32:28,013
Speaker 3: Well, it should be the population, and we should have

530
00:32:28,733 --> 00:32:33,773
Speaker 3: that was a leading question, your honor, Yeah, exactly. Somebody

531
00:32:33,773 --> 00:32:35,613
Speaker 3: put up a great idea the other day when I

532
00:32:35,653 --> 00:32:37,293
Speaker 3: was talking to them. So at the moment, if you,

533
00:32:37,653 --> 00:32:41,613
Speaker 3: if you, if you, if you apply for immigration, you know,

534
00:32:41,613 --> 00:32:44,533
Speaker 3: you apply for permanent immigration on shore and you get

535
00:32:44,653 --> 00:32:49,093
Speaker 3: not back, you can appeal that in a body called

536
00:32:49,093 --> 00:32:52,173
Speaker 3: the Administry of Appeals Tribunal and they at the moment,

537
00:32:52,733 --> 00:32:55,413
Speaker 3: if you put in your appeal today. I know this

538
00:32:55,413 --> 00:32:57,773
Speaker 3: because a friend has put in an appeal on behalf

539
00:32:57,813 --> 00:33:00,693
Speaker 3: of somebody else, they say, well, we'll hear that maybe

540
00:33:00,733 --> 00:33:04,613
Speaker 3: twenty twenty seven, early twenty twenty eight at the latest.

541
00:33:05,173 --> 00:33:09,133
Speaker 3: It's such a bureaucratic process, and that means that that

542
00:33:09,213 --> 00:33:11,973
Speaker 3: person whether they're going to turn out to be permanent

543
00:33:12,053 --> 00:33:13,733
Speaker 3: citizens or not going to live and work here for

544
00:33:13,813 --> 00:33:17,453
Speaker 3: that period. But somebody suggests to be well, why don't

545
00:33:17,453 --> 00:33:20,573
Speaker 3: we actually have a citizen's jury. So if there's an appeal,

546
00:33:21,333 --> 00:33:25,413
Speaker 3: you appeal between a panel a jury panel picked pretty

547
00:33:25,453 --> 00:33:27,133
Speaker 3: much as you pick one in the court of twelve

548
00:33:27,133 --> 00:33:30,693
Speaker 3: average Australians. They hear your case, they make up your

549
00:33:30,693 --> 00:33:32,733
Speaker 3: mind whether you're going to make a decent contribution to

550
00:33:32,773 --> 00:33:34,853
Speaker 3: this country or whether you've been lying through your teeth

551
00:33:35,613 --> 00:33:39,973
Speaker 3: in your application form. And that's it. That to me,

552
00:33:40,053 --> 00:33:41,973
Speaker 3: would be a terrific way of deciding.

553
00:33:42,013 --> 00:33:44,493
Speaker 2: It would be a very busy, a very busy court,

554
00:33:44,493 --> 00:33:45,013
Speaker 2: wouldn't it.

555
00:33:45,493 --> 00:33:48,773
Speaker 3: Well, it may be, but it can't be any more

556
00:33:48,893 --> 00:33:52,453
Speaker 3: bureaucratically complicated and slow than what we've got at the moment,

557
00:33:52,613 --> 00:33:55,413
Speaker 3: and if you have people just deciding this on their

558
00:33:55,453 --> 00:33:58,333
Speaker 3: own common sense values, you're not going to get caught

559
00:33:58,413 --> 00:34:01,893
Speaker 3: up in all of the gas legal details of you know,

560
00:34:02,013 --> 00:34:04,693
Speaker 3: can we send you back is a category here. I

561
00:34:04,733 --> 00:34:07,053
Speaker 3: don't know, I was looking at this recently. I don't

562
00:34:07,053 --> 00:34:09,373
Speaker 3: know whether this is still true, but we're going to

563
00:34:09,453 --> 00:34:13,773
Speaker 3: a lot of people apply from Malaysia for asylum in Australia,

564
00:34:13,853 --> 00:34:16,573
Speaker 3: and I'm thinking, well, it is that like, Malaysia is

565
00:34:16,653 --> 00:34:20,133
Speaker 3: quite a you know, it's quite a free and it

566
00:34:20,213 --> 00:34:23,333
Speaker 3: hasn't got the best the best, most democratic form of government,

567
00:34:23,373 --> 00:34:25,373
Speaker 3: but it is a democratic government on the on the

568
00:34:25,373 --> 00:34:28,053
Speaker 3: Westminster model, and it works pretty well in my views.

569
00:34:28,853 --> 00:34:31,373
Speaker 3: Why why would anybody be fleeing here? And it turned

570
00:34:31,373 --> 00:34:35,973
Speaker 3: out they were fleeing here because in Malaysia homosexuality is

571
00:34:36,013 --> 00:34:41,053
Speaker 3: still punishable by the death sentence in theory. Now, of

572
00:34:41,093 --> 00:34:45,253
Speaker 3: course that that's never happened in living memory. And last

573
00:34:45,253 --> 00:34:47,453
Speaker 3: time I was in Malaysia was surprised to see they

574
00:34:47,493 --> 00:34:50,333
Speaker 3: were having a pride rally in Kuala Lumpur and nobody

575
00:34:50,373 --> 00:34:53,053
Speaker 3: would seem to be particularly bothered by that. But they

576
00:34:53,093 --> 00:34:54,973
Speaker 3: apply on the basis that if you're going to if you.

577
00:34:55,173 --> 00:34:57,453
Speaker 3: If you in danger of facing the death penalty for

578
00:34:57,493 --> 00:35:01,213
Speaker 3: going back, then you can. We'll keep you here as

579
00:35:01,253 --> 00:35:03,413
Speaker 3: an asylum. Secret a whole lot of people sort of

580
00:35:03,453 --> 00:35:08,733
Speaker 3: suddenly deciding they were gay and applying for asylum from Malaysia.

581
00:35:09,173 --> 00:35:10,693
Speaker 3: You don't You wouldn't get that. If you had a

582
00:35:10,773 --> 00:35:14,693
Speaker 3: court of ordinary people, they'd sort of go, hm hmm,

583
00:35:15,093 --> 00:35:17,413
Speaker 3: well you don't look gay to me, And when was

584
00:35:17,453 --> 00:35:20,293
Speaker 3: the last hanging of a gay person in Malaysia? You

585
00:35:20,333 --> 00:35:23,253
Speaker 3: know that you get a common sense view rather than

586
00:35:23,253 --> 00:35:26,453
Speaker 3: the legalistic view. And yeah, I don't know, I'm just

587
00:35:26,493 --> 00:35:28,613
Speaker 3: floating that idea. I don't think any party has put

588
00:35:28,653 --> 00:35:31,293
Speaker 3: that forward, but maybe that's a way through to go

589
00:35:31,333 --> 00:35:34,653
Speaker 3: to your point, the people decide, not not the bureauc way.

590
00:35:34,693 --> 00:35:37,213
Speaker 2: It could be. But it happened very rarely and even

591
00:35:37,253 --> 00:35:42,733
Speaker 2: more or less really, sorry, even more really, it happens

592
00:35:42,773 --> 00:35:45,093
Speaker 2: even more really in Victoria.

593
00:35:45,573 --> 00:35:49,253
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, Victoria's got its own problems. We could do

594
00:35:49,253 --> 00:35:52,293
Speaker 3: a whole podcast, plus we should do one on why

595
00:35:52,413 --> 00:35:55,213
Speaker 3: Victoria has turned into such a basket case.

596
00:35:55,293 --> 00:35:57,773
Speaker 2: Well, you and I. You and I have discussed Victoria

597
00:35:58,893 --> 00:36:01,813
Speaker 2: at its previous premiere on more than one occasion over

598
00:36:01,813 --> 00:36:06,973
Speaker 2: the years, but it's now apparently it certainly appears to

599
00:36:07,013 --> 00:36:08,173
Speaker 2: be worse than it.

600
00:36:08,813 --> 00:36:13,253
Speaker 3: Oh, it is on every level. So there was a

601
00:36:13,293 --> 00:36:16,093
Speaker 3: report out recently that said nine out of ten new

602
00:36:16,213 --> 00:36:21,213
Speaker 3: jobs in Victoria are either government jobs or jobs that

603
00:36:21,213 --> 00:36:24,373
Speaker 3: are paid by the government, you like doctors or whatever.

604
00:36:25,533 --> 00:36:30,133
Speaker 3: The private sector is just on its knees in Victoria.

605
00:36:31,213 --> 00:36:34,973
Speaker 3: And there's a lot of other problems that the infrastructure

606
00:36:35,093 --> 00:36:38,413
Speaker 3: is not being built, but the big thing is crime

607
00:36:38,453 --> 00:36:40,653
Speaker 3: at the moment. I mean, crime is out of control

608
00:36:40,773 --> 00:36:43,693
Speaker 3: in Victoria, and the numbers show that, you know, and

609
00:36:43,733 --> 00:36:46,373
Speaker 3: I could go into this. This is partly, of course

610
00:36:46,413 --> 00:36:49,453
Speaker 3: related to migration to some extent, because a lot of

611
00:36:49,493 --> 00:36:52,493
Speaker 3: this is down to ethnic gangs. But it's not just that,

612
00:36:52,933 --> 00:36:57,493
Speaker 3: it's other things. So fifteen years ago you were probably

613
00:36:57,533 --> 00:37:01,893
Speaker 3: more likely statistically to have your car stolen in Sydney

614
00:37:01,933 --> 00:37:05,973
Speaker 3: than you were in Melbourne. Now you are twice as

615
00:37:06,093 --> 00:37:08,293
Speaker 3: likely to have your car pinched in Melbourne than city.

616
00:37:08,933 --> 00:37:11,813
Speaker 3: The mount of car theft has gone up there, it's

617
00:37:11,853 --> 00:37:14,733
Speaker 3: gone dramatically down in New South Wales and the rest

618
00:37:14,773 --> 00:37:18,413
Speaker 3: of the country. And that same metric will apply to

619
00:37:19,973 --> 00:37:25,493
Speaker 3: break and enters, a general assault, robbery, you know those

620
00:37:25,533 --> 00:37:30,693
Speaker 3: sort of violent offenses or theft. In all those categories,

621
00:37:31,013 --> 00:37:33,853
Speaker 3: the same has happened. Melbourne's gone from being a pretty

622
00:37:33,893 --> 00:37:36,813
Speaker 3: safe place to a place where you're very highly likely

623
00:37:36,893 --> 00:37:39,773
Speaker 3: to be a victim of crime. And there's got to

624
00:37:39,773 --> 00:37:42,733
Speaker 3: be reasons for that. And one reason, which I pointed

625
00:37:42,773 --> 00:37:47,173
Speaker 3: too recently, is just they don't jail people they're reluctant to,

626
00:37:47,733 --> 00:37:51,853
Speaker 3: or they have all sorts of rules that allow judges

627
00:37:51,893 --> 00:37:55,453
Speaker 3: to let people out on bail. There was another one recently.

628
00:37:55,493 --> 00:37:58,133
Speaker 3: I don't know whether you saw this, but a woman

629
00:37:58,213 --> 00:38:01,093
Speaker 3: just walking along I think it was Little Burk Street,

630
00:38:01,133 --> 00:38:02,533
Speaker 3: right in the middle of Melbourne.

631
00:38:02,213 --> 00:38:05,293
Speaker 2: Did see it? This is the woman, the Asian woman going.

632
00:38:05,093 --> 00:38:08,253
Speaker 3: To work Asian women or ade work middle of the

633
00:38:08,333 --> 00:38:10,773
Speaker 3: a or at good start of the day, and another

634
00:38:10,813 --> 00:38:13,373
Speaker 3: woman runs up behind her, just stabs her and runs

635
00:38:13,373 --> 00:38:17,053
Speaker 3: on punctured a land caused all sorts of problems. Well,

636
00:38:17,933 --> 00:38:20,213
Speaker 3: the woman who stabbed it turned out to be on bail,

637
00:38:20,453 --> 00:38:24,453
Speaker 3: so there's something to be said for putting people in prison.

638
00:38:24,573 --> 00:38:27,893
Speaker 2: You know, well she had a number of convictions, did

639
00:38:27,933 --> 00:38:28,213
Speaker 2: she not?

640
00:38:28,493 --> 00:38:33,893
Speaker 3: She did? She did? You know? You just need to all.

641
00:38:33,853 --> 00:38:36,813
Speaker 2: Right then, Thomas, sorry, go ahead.

642
00:38:36,573 --> 00:38:38,013
Speaker 3: Go on. I was just going to say, Thomas soul

643
00:38:38,093 --> 00:38:40,813
Speaker 3: has written about this very eloquently in the United States,

644
00:38:40,893 --> 00:38:45,933
Speaker 3: that people that commit crime are actually a pretty small cohorts.

645
00:38:45,973 --> 00:38:47,253
Speaker 3: You don't have to put a lot of them in

646
00:38:47,253 --> 00:38:48,893
Speaker 3: prison to make a difference to the crime rate.

647
00:38:49,493 --> 00:38:52,773
Speaker 2: I was going to do we digress, Well, let's just

648
00:38:52,813 --> 00:38:56,053
Speaker 2: stay digressing just for a moment. You've got in the States,

649
00:38:56,093 --> 00:38:59,853
Speaker 2: You've got the George Soros's of this world buying prosecutors

650
00:39:00,093 --> 00:39:03,813
Speaker 2: and even judges. And you might wonder if you don't

651
00:39:03,893 --> 00:39:06,413
Speaker 2: know how on earth that could happen. Well, it does

652
00:39:06,493 --> 00:39:10,253
Speaker 2: because judges are elected, so were prosecutors in some states,

653
00:39:10,653 --> 00:39:17,733
Speaker 2: particularly Democrat states, And money buys advertising and convinces people

654
00:39:17,973 --> 00:39:22,173
Speaker 2: of various things. So what I was driving at really was,

655
00:39:22,653 --> 00:39:28,133
Speaker 2: how do we get in Victoria where judges and lawyers, etc.

656
00:39:28,693 --> 00:39:32,933
Speaker 2: Are prosecutors are appointed by the government. How do we

657
00:39:33,013 --> 00:39:36,213
Speaker 2: get courts that just turn people out in the street

658
00:39:36,293 --> 00:39:40,653
Speaker 2: when they've got more than well, when they've got multiple convictions.

659
00:39:41,053 --> 00:39:47,333
Speaker 3: Well, you've got to need a pretty strong minded political

660
00:39:47,813 --> 00:39:51,373
Speaker 3: leader to turn that round, somebody like Jeff Kennett in

661
00:39:51,413 --> 00:39:55,213
Speaker 3: the nineties and early two thousands, he turned the place

662
00:39:55,253 --> 00:39:57,773
Speaker 3: around after a long period of labor government. There's nobody

663
00:39:57,853 --> 00:40:00,333
Speaker 3: like that at the moment on the seat. So but

664
00:40:00,613 --> 00:40:02,933
Speaker 3: what you need to come on. You need to look

665
00:40:02,973 --> 00:40:06,413
Speaker 3: at mandatory sentencing, You need to look at scrapping these

666
00:40:07,013 --> 00:40:13,133
Speaker 3: bail laws, but fundamentally to phase out the current lot

667
00:40:13,173 --> 00:40:15,493
Speaker 3: of judges and put in some people who are just

668
00:40:15,573 --> 00:40:22,733
Speaker 3: going to enforce community standards, not some woke idea of harm.

669
00:40:22,853 --> 00:40:27,293
Speaker 3: You know, they're confused between the victim and the criminal,

670
00:40:27,413 --> 00:40:30,853
Speaker 3: aren't they. They think that the person who's perpetrating the

671
00:40:30,933 --> 00:40:37,453
Speaker 3: crime because they're Aboriginal or because they come from Sudan

672
00:40:37,693 --> 00:40:42,373
Speaker 3: or whatever, that makes them the victim. No, sorry, the

673
00:40:42,453 --> 00:40:46,013
Speaker 3: victim is the person who gets injured or harmed in

674
00:40:46,093 --> 00:40:50,013
Speaker 3: some way the perpetrator. Of course, you can take into

675
00:40:50,053 --> 00:40:54,333
Speaker 3: account mitigating centuencetances when you come to sentence somebody, but

676
00:40:54,453 --> 00:40:57,413
Speaker 3: you don't just because somebody happens to be of a

677
00:40:57,453 --> 00:41:02,493
Speaker 3: particular race or certain background, they are not entitled to

678
00:41:02,533 --> 00:41:05,733
Speaker 3: a softer treatment than any other because they if you

679
00:41:05,853 --> 00:41:09,893
Speaker 3: start playing that game, then they react. People make rational

680
00:41:10,013 --> 00:41:11,853
Speaker 3: decisions and if they're not going to get jailed or

681
00:41:12,293 --> 00:41:14,573
Speaker 3: unlikely to get caught, they're going to commit more crime.

682
00:41:14,573 --> 00:41:15,933
Speaker 3: It's just just what happens.

683
00:41:15,973 --> 00:41:19,413
Speaker 2: What are the asylums like in Australia or in Victoria specifically,

684
00:41:19,773 --> 00:41:20,973
Speaker 2: or don't they exist anymore?

685
00:41:21,533 --> 00:41:27,653
Speaker 3: Science? What you mean? Yeah, this is a problem because

686
00:41:27,693 --> 00:41:30,893
Speaker 3: it goes back a long time. I've got some experience

687
00:41:30,933 --> 00:41:35,413
Speaker 3: of this actually at a personal level with a relative

688
00:41:35,453 --> 00:41:41,013
Speaker 3: of mine. We don't have enough places where people can

689
00:41:41,053 --> 00:41:46,653
Speaker 3: be be sent for permanent care. The encourage you know

690
00:41:46,693 --> 00:41:49,733
Speaker 3: that the system here still encourages people to be released

691
00:41:50,693 --> 00:41:55,253
Speaker 3: when they should be in permanent care, and that creates

692
00:41:55,653 --> 00:41:58,413
Speaker 3: a lot of these problems. We're seeing a lot of

693
00:41:58,493 --> 00:42:02,573
Speaker 3: crime problems or of homelessness is in the end you

694
00:42:02,653 --> 00:42:05,693
Speaker 3: look down to it, the real cause behind that is

695
00:42:05,733 --> 00:42:10,733
Speaker 3: mental illness and often related to drug use, because drug

696
00:42:10,813 --> 00:42:15,773
Speaker 3: use could trigger or worsen mental illness. And we're trying

697
00:42:15,773 --> 00:42:19,013
Speaker 3: to treat these as through the courts and through the

698
00:42:19,653 --> 00:42:23,093
Speaker 3: police system when we should actually be treating them in hospitals.

699
00:42:23,133 --> 00:42:26,293
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean, I really think we need a

700
00:42:26,333 --> 00:42:30,133
Speaker 3: big investment in mental health in this country. What we've done,

701
00:42:30,253 --> 00:42:31,933
Speaker 3: I don't know it's sown a New Zealand, but we

702
00:42:32,013 --> 00:42:35,333
Speaker 3: widen the definition of mental health. So if you depress,

703
00:42:35,453 --> 00:42:37,493
Speaker 3: you know, if you're having a donner day you just

704
00:42:37,573 --> 00:42:41,293
Speaker 3: don't want to go to work. You can now claim

705
00:42:41,653 --> 00:42:46,813
Speaker 3: free psychiatric treatment, free sessions on the government or on

706
00:42:46,853 --> 00:42:50,813
Speaker 3: your employer, which is fine, but I think we need

707
00:42:50,853 --> 00:42:54,773
Speaker 3: to stop blurring the definition and recognize that it's the

708
00:42:54,813 --> 00:42:58,053
Speaker 3: two or three percent of people who are acutely mentally

709
00:42:58,133 --> 00:43:01,413
Speaker 3: ill that need most of the treatment, and not try

710
00:43:01,413 --> 00:43:03,813
Speaker 3: and average this out between people who are just feeling

711
00:43:03,853 --> 00:43:04,653
Speaker 3: a little bit down.

712
00:43:05,173 --> 00:43:08,973
Speaker 2: Indeed, let me just go back though to the coke

713
00:43:09,053 --> 00:43:14,853
Speaker 2: era or post coke, because when you were writing in

714
00:43:15,613 --> 00:43:20,293
Speaker 2: this essay, are filmed on a hilltop in Italy. A

715
00:43:20,373 --> 00:43:25,173
Speaker 2: chorus of young people with conspicuously diverse racial characteristics mimed

716
00:43:25,213 --> 00:43:28,973
Speaker 2: the lyrics to a catchy step wise melody which shared

717
00:43:28,973 --> 00:43:32,773
Speaker 2: the harmonic backbone of a traditional chirt hymn. Their voices

718
00:43:33,013 --> 00:43:37,013
Speaker 2: enter in layers, moving from a soloist to a collective chorus,

719
00:43:37,093 --> 00:43:41,893
Speaker 2: reinforcing the theme of togetherness. You've already covered that off.

720
00:43:42,773 --> 00:43:46,773
Speaker 2: But then a few years later, along comes the jag

721
00:43:47,413 --> 00:43:51,373
Speaker 2: Jaguar advertisement. Now, I used to be a Jag fan.

722
00:43:51,453 --> 00:43:53,173
Speaker 2: I had one for a while. I used to be

723
00:43:53,213 --> 00:43:54,973
Speaker 2: a Jag fan. I got the first one of the

724
00:43:54,973 --> 00:43:57,493
Speaker 2: first xfs when they hit the market here, and I

725
00:43:57,773 --> 00:43:59,973
Speaker 2: only kept it for a year. But what I'm driving

726
00:44:00,013 --> 00:44:03,253
Speaker 2: at is if the Coke ad, and I asked you this,

727
00:44:03,413 --> 00:44:08,253
Speaker 2: was it a stupid decision? The jag ad was definite

728
00:44:08,853 --> 00:44:13,493
Speaker 2: a stupid decision, and it damaged the brand enormously. Then

729
00:44:13,493 --> 00:44:15,973
Speaker 2: you've got the beer one in the States, which I

730
00:44:16,093 --> 00:44:21,133
Speaker 2: destroyed a will almost destroyed a massive company. Light Yeah. Yeah.

731
00:44:21,173 --> 00:44:25,813
Speaker 2: And I wonder whether, just going back to John Lennon,

732
00:44:25,893 --> 00:44:29,933
Speaker 2: et cetera and the anthemu imagine which was which part

733
00:44:29,933 --> 00:44:33,053
Speaker 2: of the Cooke thing, whether the World Economic Forum might

734
00:44:33,093 --> 00:44:35,373
Speaker 2: have had any input into that any thought.

735
00:44:36,133 --> 00:44:39,813
Speaker 3: Well, they've certainly been pushing this agenda, haven't they, This

736
00:44:39,933 --> 00:44:46,093
Speaker 3: woke agenda, and they're encouraging it along. And as you say,

737
00:44:46,093 --> 00:44:50,013
Speaker 3: there's a lot of philanthropic money in the United States

738
00:44:50,013 --> 00:44:56,053
Speaker 3: from Soros and others that are going towards these really nutty,

739
00:44:56,173 --> 00:45:00,093
Speaker 3: extreme left wing causes. So you can trace this, if

740
00:45:00,133 --> 00:45:04,373
Speaker 3: you can be bothered. You can these various left wing

741
00:45:05,573 --> 00:45:11,853
Speaker 3: donation washing organization in the States that take donations from

742
00:45:11,973 --> 00:45:13,693
Speaker 3: rich people who want to feel they want to do

743
00:45:13,813 --> 00:45:18,653
Speaker 3: good in the world, and then redistributed to various charities

744
00:45:18,693 --> 00:45:21,853
Speaker 3: who they think are doing good works. That's how, that's

745
00:45:21,893 --> 00:45:25,573
Speaker 3: how the whole transgender movement is being financed at the moment.

746
00:45:25,893 --> 00:45:30,573
Speaker 3: It's how the Palestinian protest movement is being financed, and

747
00:45:30,613 --> 00:45:36,853
Speaker 3: it's how the anti fossil fuel movement is being financed.

748
00:45:37,173 --> 00:45:39,413
Speaker 3: And some of that money is finding its way into

749
00:45:39,693 --> 00:45:44,373
Speaker 3: Australia too. At least one hundred million was traced in

750
00:45:44,413 --> 00:45:47,213
Speaker 3: a recent report that has come from those US philanthropists

751
00:45:47,253 --> 00:45:51,893
Speaker 3: being washed through various organizations and ends up funding either

752
00:45:52,133 --> 00:45:56,693
Speaker 3: local activist groups here or often law fare, you know,

753
00:45:56,773 --> 00:46:00,293
Speaker 3: taking on the mining companies in court to stop developers.

754
00:46:00,493 --> 00:46:02,853
Speaker 3: That money is coming from that big pool of money

755
00:46:03,493 --> 00:46:08,253
Speaker 3: from the States, and it's huge. The total philanthropic factor

756
00:46:08,373 --> 00:46:11,933
Speaker 3: in the States is worth around five hundred and seventy

757
00:46:12,213 --> 00:46:15,013
Speaker 3: to five hundred and ninety billion dollars a year, which

758
00:46:15,053 --> 00:46:18,613
Speaker 3: is about the GDP of Sweden. So all that money

759
00:46:18,693 --> 00:46:21,133
Speaker 3: is going most of it some bit of courses going

760
00:46:21,173 --> 00:46:23,133
Speaker 3: to other causes, but a large chunk of it is

761
00:46:23,173 --> 00:46:28,533
Speaker 3: going to these progressive, woke sort of causes. And I

762
00:46:28,613 --> 00:46:30,853
Speaker 3: dare say I haven't looked at it, but I wouldn't

763
00:46:30,893 --> 00:46:32,573
Speaker 3: be surprised if some of that money even finds its

764
00:46:32,573 --> 00:46:33,653
Speaker 3: way into New Zealand too.

765
00:46:34,053 --> 00:46:37,813
Speaker 2: I wouldn't be surprised either. We had some issues over

766
00:46:37,853 --> 00:46:41,413
Speaker 2: this last weekend. Going back to Whitlam, you're right, yet

767
00:46:41,413 --> 00:46:45,733
Speaker 2: Whitlam overrode the warning signals generated by his own capacious

768
00:46:45,733 --> 00:46:51,413
Speaker 2: brain and stuck this unexploded legislative bomb on the statute. Anyway,

769
00:46:51,893 --> 00:46:55,653
Speaker 2: why Whitlam explained, we shall be doing our best to

770
00:46:55,733 --> 00:47:01,013
Speaker 2: redress past injustice and build a more tolerant society. Now

771
00:47:01,373 --> 00:47:04,733
Speaker 2: your comment after that, It's not hard to make the

772
00:47:04,773 --> 00:47:08,893
Speaker 2: case for statutory regulation in areas such as banking example,

773
00:47:09,493 --> 00:47:13,813
Speaker 2: although even there we must remain vigilant for administrative overreach.

774
00:47:14,213 --> 00:47:17,453
Speaker 2: The inevitable price of going down this path is that

775
00:47:17,653 --> 00:47:21,653
Speaker 2: not every adjudication will be applied with the wisdom of Solomon,

776
00:47:21,973 --> 00:47:26,893
Speaker 2: since decisions will inevitably be outsourced to a commission or

777
00:47:26,973 --> 00:47:31,053
Speaker 2: some other expert body with limited opportunities for appeal through

778
00:47:31,093 --> 00:47:33,173
Speaker 2: the courts. And that's really where I was headed right

779
00:47:33,213 --> 00:47:37,933
Speaker 2: from the beginning of that little rant, because there you

780
00:47:38,093 --> 00:47:42,213
Speaker 2: have democracy being eaten again, destroyed even.

781
00:47:42,293 --> 00:47:45,853
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so Whitlam in the final couple of weeks

782
00:47:45,893 --> 00:47:49,533
Speaker 3: of his term in office, just coming up to fifty

783
00:47:49,613 --> 00:47:53,493
Speaker 3: years of course, fifty year anniversary of his dismissal. So

784
00:47:53,573 --> 00:47:56,893
Speaker 3: in the final term weeks of obviously sets up the

785
00:47:57,693 --> 00:48:01,213
Speaker 3: equivalent of what became the Human Rights Commission, So it

786
00:48:01,213 --> 00:48:04,373
Speaker 3: has various incarnations. So this is a body where if

787
00:48:04,413 --> 00:48:07,573
Speaker 3: you feel you've been discriminated against in some way because

788
00:48:07,573 --> 00:48:13,333
Speaker 3: of your race, you an appeal and a panel, a

789
00:48:13,373 --> 00:48:16,933
Speaker 3: panel of adjudicators, not a court, will make a decision

790
00:48:17,333 --> 00:48:21,133
Speaker 3: and then say you need redress. I drawing tension in

791
00:48:21,173 --> 00:48:25,293
Speaker 3: that article to various ridiculous cases that have been bored

792
00:48:25,373 --> 00:48:29,373
Speaker 3: over the years, including somebody who's complaining that they've had

793
00:48:29,613 --> 00:48:33,813
Speaker 3: a racist slur made at them because one of their

794
00:48:33,853 --> 00:48:37,293
Speaker 3: work colleagues said, would you like a black tea? You know,

795
00:48:37,413 --> 00:48:40,813
Speaker 3: he said, well that was racist, and you know it's

796
00:48:40,813 --> 00:48:45,773
Speaker 3: a silly thing. But that then takes up pages and

797
00:48:45,893 --> 00:48:50,613
Speaker 3: pages of the commissioner's judgment explaining like in the end,

798
00:48:50,773 --> 00:48:54,093
Speaker 3: she didn't think that was racist. But once you start

799
00:48:54,133 --> 00:48:57,333
Speaker 3: that bureaucratic process, as Whitlam did in nineteen seventy five,

800
00:48:57,933 --> 00:49:00,613
Speaker 3: it just grows like topsy and is then out of

801
00:49:00,613 --> 00:49:04,653
Speaker 3: your control. So the Human Rights Commission now is just

802
00:49:04,973 --> 00:49:10,013
Speaker 3: completely off with the fairies. It's it should be, of course,

803
00:49:10,093 --> 00:49:14,733
Speaker 3: looking at the human rights and the racial hatred against

804
00:49:14,773 --> 00:49:19,933
Speaker 3: the Jewish community. But it doesn't. It's recently the Human

805
00:49:20,013 --> 00:49:24,973
Speaker 3: Rights Commission here has said, you know, they've come out

806
00:49:25,013 --> 00:49:28,933
Speaker 3: against this push to define a man and a woman

807
00:49:29,013 --> 00:49:33,133
Speaker 3: in biological terms and insist that biological men do not

808
00:49:33,173 --> 00:49:36,653
Speaker 3: complete in women's sport. They're against that idea. That's against

809
00:49:36,653 --> 00:49:40,373
Speaker 3: the rights of the people who want to be transgender.

810
00:49:40,613 --> 00:49:44,933
Speaker 3: So this body is completely out of control. It has

811
00:49:44,973 --> 00:49:48,813
Speaker 3: its own processes. They're not subject to the usual rules

812
00:49:48,813 --> 00:49:52,413
Speaker 3: of law of fairness, judicial fairness, because it's done by

813
00:49:52,453 --> 00:49:56,213
Speaker 3: a committee. And that's what happens when you bureaucratize this

814
00:49:56,293 --> 00:49:59,733
Speaker 3: stuff instead of just as I said earlier, let people

815
00:49:59,813 --> 00:50:02,133
Speaker 3: work it out amongst themselves and do the right thing.

816
00:50:02,613 --> 00:50:06,413
Speaker 2: What do you think Robert Menzie's approach would have been.

817
00:50:07,373 --> 00:50:13,173
Speaker 3: Well, this would never have happened under Mensis because Mensis

818
00:50:14,093 --> 00:50:17,853
Speaker 3: resisted the idea of Australia signing up to international treaties

819
00:50:18,133 --> 00:50:21,933
Speaker 3: like the you know whatever the treaty was that led

820
00:50:21,973 --> 00:50:26,533
Speaker 3: to the Human Rights Commission, and in the Australian Constitution,

821
00:50:27,293 --> 00:50:30,293
Speaker 3: the only way that the federal government can claim the

822
00:50:30,333 --> 00:50:33,613
Speaker 3: power to legislate on those things across the countries by saying, well,

823
00:50:33,613 --> 00:50:36,133
Speaker 3: we've signed in international treaties, so it's a dune. Deeal

824
00:50:36,533 --> 00:50:39,133
Speaker 3: Mensis didn't like that idea. He was always troubled by

825
00:50:39,133 --> 00:50:42,973
Speaker 3: the idea of, you know, outsourcing our sovereignty to some

826
00:50:43,133 --> 00:50:48,213
Speaker 3: international body or treaty. Well he has, hasn't he. So

827
00:50:48,333 --> 00:50:51,373
Speaker 3: I suspect we wouldn't be quite in this mess if

828
00:50:51,453 --> 00:50:55,453
Speaker 3: Mensi's had to live for another or you know, sixty

829
00:50:55,573 --> 00:51:01,693
Speaker 3: seventy years. But yeah, it's the times, isn't it. The

830
00:51:01,773 --> 00:51:06,293
Speaker 3: expectations change, and this extension of human rights into a

831
00:51:06,373 --> 00:51:09,733
Speaker 3: misunderstanding of what universal human or rights star. So we

832
00:51:09,853 --> 00:51:13,293
Speaker 3: now get this idea that if you want to be,

833
00:51:14,053 --> 00:51:16,413
Speaker 3: if you want to appeal because you want to be

834
00:51:16,453 --> 00:51:20,453
Speaker 3: an Australian resident and you've been refused, oh well you've

835
00:51:20,453 --> 00:51:24,173
Speaker 3: got human rights. Well maybe in a technical sense you do.

836
00:51:24,293 --> 00:51:26,893
Speaker 3: But the rights of the people who actually live here,

837
00:51:26,973 --> 00:51:30,453
Speaker 3: the actual citizens, should be the primary rights, and that

838
00:51:30,493 --> 00:51:33,573
Speaker 3: the rights of that of some rat bag who wants

839
00:51:33,613 --> 00:51:36,693
Speaker 3: to come and live here do not trump the rights

840
00:51:36,693 --> 00:51:38,733
Speaker 3: of the people who actually live here. We've lost that

841
00:51:38,893 --> 00:51:42,853
Speaker 3: idea that a country can discriminate between its own citizens

842
00:51:42,973 --> 00:51:45,893
Speaker 3: and outsiders. We've got to go back to that.

843
00:51:46,693 --> 00:51:50,493
Speaker 2: You talking of multiculturalism as we are, of course, but

844
00:51:50,653 --> 00:51:54,173
Speaker 2: as public policy. Is that exemplar of stage one thinking,

845
00:51:55,013 --> 00:51:58,933
Speaker 2: a superficially appealing proposal marred by a failure to ask

846
00:51:59,253 --> 00:52:02,533
Speaker 2: what might come next? The all too frequent answer to

847
00:52:02,573 --> 00:52:05,893
Speaker 2: that question is that the consequence will be the opposite

848
00:52:05,973 --> 00:52:09,533
Speaker 2: of the one intended. And then you go on from there.

849
00:52:10,053 --> 00:52:12,413
Speaker 2: And I got into a bit of a discussion only

850
00:52:12,493 --> 00:52:15,653
Speaker 2: last night with somebody, and I had to pull out

851
00:52:15,653 --> 00:52:18,533
Speaker 2: of it because it wasn't going to go anywhere terribly good.

852
00:52:19,653 --> 00:52:25,573
Speaker 2: But you refer to an era where I became aware

853
00:52:25,853 --> 00:52:29,133
Speaker 2: and interested in what was going on in the early

854
00:52:29,213 --> 00:52:34,973
Speaker 2: nineteen seventies Australia. The possibility was more than theoretical. I

855
00:52:35,133 --> 00:52:37,813
Speaker 2: actually better go back to the beginning of that paragraph.

856
00:52:38,213 --> 00:52:41,973
Speaker 2: By rewarding the celebration of ethnic traditions that might well

857
00:52:42,013 --> 00:52:47,293
Speaker 2: serve as totems in conflicts on other continents, might we

858
00:52:47,373 --> 00:52:50,693
Speaker 2: not run a substantial risk of importing unresolved grievances that

859
00:52:50,733 --> 00:52:53,853
Speaker 2: would weaken the social fabric and try the patients of

860
00:52:53,933 --> 00:52:58,533
Speaker 2: other Australians. And that's exactly the sort of question that

861
00:52:58,533 --> 00:53:02,053
Speaker 2: should be raised constantly anyway. In early nineteen seventies Australia,

862
00:53:02,213 --> 00:53:06,213
Speaker 2: the possibility was more than theoretical. The cascading civil wars

863
00:53:06,693 --> 00:53:10,813
Speaker 2: and insurgencies that ravig the Balkans for ten years after

864
00:53:10,813 --> 00:53:14,413
Speaker 2: the collapse of communism had been rehearsed in Australia for

865
00:53:14,453 --> 00:53:17,893
Speaker 2: a decade, beginning at the start of the Queensland cane

866
00:53:17,893 --> 00:53:20,173
Speaker 2: cutting season in May of nineteen sixty three, where a

867
00:53:20,213 --> 00:53:23,533
Speaker 2: group of mass men armed with guns and knives vandalized

868
00:53:23,573 --> 00:53:27,933
Speaker 2: the property of a Yugoslavian farmer. It was followed by

869
00:53:28,013 --> 00:53:31,333
Speaker 2: the first two attempts to fire bomb the Yugoslav consulate

870
00:53:31,333 --> 00:53:34,453
Speaker 2: in Sydney in May of nineteen sixty four, which succeeded

871
00:53:34,533 --> 00:53:36,653
Speaker 2: only in injuring the suitcase, bomber, etc.

872
00:53:36,893 --> 00:53:37,093
Speaker 3: Etc.

873
00:53:37,933 --> 00:53:42,253
Speaker 2: In a portent of the wave of anti Semitic violence

874
00:53:42,253 --> 00:53:45,453
Speaker 2: that began in Sydney half a century later. Or Starza

875
00:53:45,813 --> 00:53:53,013
Speaker 2: translates as uprising or insurgency, serving as the Croatian equivalent

876
00:53:53,093 --> 00:53:56,693
Speaker 2: of chi had And you go on talking about attempts,

877
00:53:56,693 --> 00:53:59,653
Speaker 2: blowing to blowing up bridges and all sorts of other things.

878
00:54:00,093 --> 00:54:01,733
Speaker 2: The point that I was trying to make last night,

879
00:54:01,773 --> 00:54:06,813
Speaker 2: in this dead end conversation was that you can't import

880
00:54:06,853 --> 00:54:12,773
Speaker 2: people who have such different values and a record of

881
00:54:12,893 --> 00:54:17,533
Speaker 2: violence in their home country. You can't import them and

882
00:54:17,573 --> 00:54:20,493
Speaker 2: expect them to settle in when at the same time

883
00:54:20,653 --> 00:54:24,253
Speaker 2: the same opposition from back there, like in Yugoslavia, is

884
00:54:24,293 --> 00:54:27,653
Speaker 2: also getting into the country. So the two groups are

885
00:54:27,693 --> 00:54:30,533
Speaker 2: just bringing their bonfight to a new venue.

886
00:54:31,893 --> 00:54:34,773
Speaker 3: Exactly. I think you can allow people to come from

887
00:54:34,813 --> 00:54:36,853
Speaker 3: those regions, but you've got to make it very clear.

888
00:54:36,853 --> 00:54:39,053
Speaker 3: You've got to do your you've got to do your

889
00:54:39,093 --> 00:54:41,373
Speaker 3: background checks, and make it very clear to them that

890
00:54:42,053 --> 00:54:45,213
Speaker 3: whatever you think about that dispute there in the Middle East,

891
00:54:45,813 --> 00:54:47,573
Speaker 3: or in the case of the earlier one, you know,

892
00:54:47,613 --> 00:54:51,413
Speaker 3: between the Croats and the Serbs, that's not something you're

893
00:54:51,453 --> 00:54:54,013
Speaker 3: going to do here, right, you know, we live by

894
00:54:54,053 --> 00:54:58,093
Speaker 3: the principal love thy neighbor, right, love thy neighbor as thyself,

895
00:54:58,293 --> 00:55:01,733
Speaker 3: and that that applies to Jews if you're a Muslim,

896
00:55:01,813 --> 00:55:05,133
Speaker 3: it applies to Serbs if you're a Croatan, and vice versa.

897
00:55:05,293 --> 00:55:09,693
Speaker 3: So that's the rule, and if you transgress that rule,

898
00:55:09,693 --> 00:55:11,613
Speaker 3: then you're out. Because we don't want that here. We

899
00:55:12,573 --> 00:55:15,413
Speaker 3: have to be able to draw a line under these

900
00:55:17,133 --> 00:55:23,053
Speaker 3: historical grievances and imagines, historical grievances that ravage other parts

901
00:55:23,093 --> 00:55:25,813
Speaker 3: of the world, principally you know, as you say, the

902
00:55:25,813 --> 00:55:28,613
Speaker 3: Middle East now, but attentions are still there of course

903
00:55:28,653 --> 00:55:31,893
Speaker 3: in the Balkans and parts of Europe. We can see

904
00:55:31,893 --> 00:55:35,333
Speaker 3: it in Ukraine. No, sorry, you know that that's not

905
00:55:35,493 --> 00:55:36,693
Speaker 3: part of what we do here.

906
00:55:37,133 --> 00:55:41,493
Speaker 2: But which is your problem. Your problem is that the

907
00:55:42,453 --> 00:55:44,653
Speaker 2: as you have been referring to them, the elites have

908
00:55:44,693 --> 00:55:52,133
Speaker 2: taken control. The courts are full of them and so

909
00:55:52,133 --> 00:55:59,293
Speaker 2: sore the bureaucracies, and it's either live with what you've

910
00:55:59,293 --> 00:56:02,093
Speaker 2: got now and where it goes, or you've got to

911
00:56:02,093 --> 00:56:03,613
Speaker 2: have a revolution to overturn it.

912
00:56:04,013 --> 00:56:08,093
Speaker 3: Almost yeah, yeah, Now the courts are the courts are

913
00:56:08,413 --> 00:56:10,733
Speaker 3: really getting beyond themselves, aren't they in some of this

914
00:56:11,133 --> 00:56:14,373
Speaker 3: We've had these instances recently in Sydney, you no doubt

915
00:56:14,373 --> 00:56:19,813
Speaker 3: have seen that big Palestinian protest over the Harbor Bridge. Well,

916
00:56:19,853 --> 00:56:23,693
Speaker 3: the New South Wales police wanted that stopped. They didn't

917
00:56:23,693 --> 00:56:25,053
Speaker 3: want it to go ahead because it was going to

918
00:56:25,093 --> 00:56:29,173
Speaker 3: be dangerous. The government wanted it stopped. Most of the

919
00:56:29,173 --> 00:56:32,493
Speaker 3: community wanted it stopped. I mean, why shouldn't Why should I,

920
00:56:32,813 --> 00:56:35,053
Speaker 3: as somebody who lives north of the Harbor Bridge be

921
00:56:35,173 --> 00:56:38,253
Speaker 3: prevented from driving across the city to the fish market

922
00:56:38,293 --> 00:56:42,013
Speaker 3: on a Saturday morning or Sunday morning because these idiots

923
00:56:42,053 --> 00:56:45,413
Speaker 3: want to make a spectacle of themselves. Obviously it's a

924
00:56:45,493 --> 00:56:47,773
Speaker 3: ridiculous place to have a demonstration in the middle of

925
00:56:47,813 --> 00:56:53,053
Speaker 3: the main road. Essentially, so everybody agreed this was wrong thing.

926
00:56:53,093 --> 00:56:55,013
Speaker 3: But then of course the court stepped in and said,

927
00:56:55,013 --> 00:56:57,653
Speaker 3: oh no, these people have a right to process, and

928
00:56:57,693 --> 00:57:00,693
Speaker 3: it all had to go ahead. But predictably, as the

929
00:57:00,693 --> 00:57:03,693
Speaker 3: police had said, it just became really dangerous and out

930
00:57:03,693 --> 00:57:05,973
Speaker 3: of control and they had to turn the people back

931
00:57:06,053 --> 00:57:08,173
Speaker 3: halfway across the bridge and say, look, this is too

932
00:57:08,373 --> 00:57:12,373
Speaker 3: Angels that that goes on and on and on. Here

933
00:57:12,653 --> 00:57:18,573
Speaker 3: the courts are taking this really high minded, soft headed

934
00:57:18,653 --> 00:57:21,573
Speaker 3: view that they're doing the right thing, when in actual

935
00:57:21,653 --> 00:57:25,373
Speaker 3: fact they're just creating an increasing tension in the community

936
00:57:25,453 --> 00:57:29,853
Speaker 3: and very ugly scenes in public which shouldn't be there.

937
00:57:31,373 --> 00:57:35,493
Speaker 2: The lessons that should have been learned through the earlier

938
00:57:35,533 --> 00:57:38,093
Speaker 2: stages with the Yugoslavs, the Serbs and what have you

939
00:57:39,533 --> 00:57:44,373
Speaker 2: can be easily transferred to the presence situation with allowing

940
00:57:44,933 --> 00:57:49,253
Speaker 2: more Palestinians into the country. Just as an example, but

941
00:57:49,453 --> 00:57:53,933
Speaker 2: there doesn't seem to be any recognition of the education

942
00:57:54,413 --> 00:57:57,813
Speaker 2: that should have come out of the Australia's not too

943
00:57:57,853 --> 00:57:58,653
Speaker 2: distant past.

944
00:58:00,293 --> 00:58:05,693
Speaker 3: No, absolutely not it. There's just this complete, really libed

945
00:58:05,773 --> 00:58:09,853
Speaker 3: attitude towards managing him greation in this country and actually

946
00:58:11,093 --> 00:58:14,453
Speaker 3: making sure the best of our ability that people come

947
00:58:14,453 --> 00:58:18,173
Speaker 3: here for the right reasons and principally come here because

948
00:58:18,173 --> 00:58:22,573
Speaker 3: they love Australia. You know, that should be everybody's overriding

949
00:58:22,813 --> 00:58:25,293
Speaker 3: reason they turn up here, you know, not just because

950
00:58:25,333 --> 00:58:29,213
Speaker 3: they can get a good job and work here, but

951
00:58:29,253 --> 00:58:32,973
Speaker 3: because they love the place. And I think that is

952
00:58:33,453 --> 00:58:35,653
Speaker 3: still true of most migrants. I mean, I go on,

953
00:58:35,733 --> 00:58:40,733
Speaker 3: I've been along to some citizenship ceremonies recently, and you're

954
00:58:40,813 --> 00:58:46,213
Speaker 3: full of rooms full of people from more different places Philippines, India, China, whatever,

955
00:58:46,613 --> 00:58:49,493
Speaker 3: just really proud to stand in front of an Australian

956
00:58:49,493 --> 00:58:52,013
Speaker 3: flag and have their photo taken and be part of it.

957
00:58:52,213 --> 00:58:54,173
Speaker 3: And I kind of identify with that because I felt

958
00:58:54,173 --> 00:58:57,613
Speaker 3: exactly that when I became a citizen in well over

959
00:58:57,693 --> 00:59:01,773
Speaker 3: thirty years ago. And that's true, but not everybody does

960
00:59:01,813 --> 00:59:07,173
Speaker 3: that now. So we should be looking very carefully at people,

961
00:59:07,733 --> 00:59:10,733
Speaker 3: whether they be become citizens, or they're not becoming citizens,

962
00:59:10,813 --> 00:59:14,013
Speaker 3: then what are they doing here? They don't love the place,

963
00:59:14,293 --> 00:59:17,653
Speaker 3: leave it? In my view, you know, plenty of people

964
00:59:17,773 --> 00:59:20,933
Speaker 3: do love it, and they're the people that are going

965
00:59:20,973 --> 00:59:24,373
Speaker 3: to make this country stronger and better, people who actually

966
00:59:24,413 --> 00:59:27,253
Speaker 3: committed to the place. So we need to look at that.

967
00:59:27,333 --> 00:59:29,773
Speaker 3: We need to look at the way we do know

968
00:59:29,813 --> 00:59:33,893
Speaker 3: the various immigration rules and principles and just revise them

969
00:59:33,973 --> 00:59:37,613
Speaker 3: so that we get a lot stronger control over who

970
00:59:37,693 --> 00:59:41,453
Speaker 3: comes here, better checks, particularly on the English language. I

971
00:59:41,533 --> 00:59:44,813
Speaker 3: was in I was in Finland last year and I

972
00:59:44,893 --> 00:59:48,533
Speaker 3: got a cab from the airport and there was an

973
00:59:48,533 --> 00:59:51,693
Speaker 3: Indian driving a cab in Finland and I said to him,

974
00:59:52,373 --> 00:59:54,733
Speaker 3: do you speak Finnish? He said, of course, he said,

975
00:59:54,853 --> 00:59:57,693
Speaker 3: we have to. We have to learn Finish or we

976
00:59:57,773 --> 01:00:01,213
Speaker 3: don't stay here. And Finish is one of the hardest,

977
01:00:01,333 --> 01:00:05,453
Speaker 3: most difficult languages in the world right and only about

978
01:00:05,453 --> 01:00:08,653
Speaker 3: five million people speak it. But if you in assist

979
01:00:08,693 --> 01:00:10,453
Speaker 3: that that's the right of being here. I think we

980
01:00:10,533 --> 01:00:12,373
Speaker 3: get a bit lazy with English, but we should say

981
01:00:13,053 --> 01:00:15,573
Speaker 3: not just get buy in English. We actually have to

982
01:00:15,653 --> 01:00:18,133
Speaker 3: understand you, and you have to understand us at a

983
01:00:18,213 --> 01:00:21,453
Speaker 3: pretty high level if you want to stay here, that

984
01:00:21,493 --> 01:00:25,933
Speaker 3: would I think help a great deal. But also just

985
01:00:26,133 --> 01:00:31,173
Speaker 3: insisting on test of values, I guess in whatever form

986
01:00:31,173 --> 01:00:31,613
Speaker 3: you do that.

987
01:00:31,853 --> 01:00:34,853
Speaker 2: Yeah, either learn finish or you're finished.

988
01:00:35,853 --> 01:00:40,333
Speaker 3: Exactly exactly. The same rules apply in Hungary incidentally, which

989
01:00:40,373 --> 01:00:45,173
Speaker 3: is again second only to Finish as the most difficult

990
01:00:45,213 --> 01:00:47,053
Speaker 3: language in Europe.

991
01:00:47,493 --> 01:00:49,493
Speaker 2: Anything else that you want to touch.

992
01:00:49,293 --> 01:00:55,173
Speaker 3: On, well, not really. I just would like the New

993
01:00:55,253 --> 01:00:58,933
Speaker 3: Zealand economy to lift a bit and the things that

994
01:00:58,973 --> 01:01:01,373
Speaker 3: go a bit better over there, and then perhaps that

995
01:01:01,413 --> 01:01:04,293
Speaker 3: would ease our immigration issues a bit. Not that we

996
01:01:04,533 --> 01:01:06,733
Speaker 3: don't like seeing New Zealand to see we do, of course,

997
01:01:06,773 --> 01:01:10,013
Speaker 3: but you know, going to side up, I'm trying to

998
01:01:10,053 --> 01:01:11,893
Speaker 3: stand back at the moment and think how do we

999
01:01:11,893 --> 01:01:13,533
Speaker 3: get to this point and how do we get out

1000
01:01:13,533 --> 01:01:17,373
Speaker 3: of it? And I don't think the second question has

1001
01:01:17,453 --> 01:01:19,773
Speaker 3: no clear answer to me. The cavalry are not coming.

1002
01:01:20,413 --> 01:01:21,573
Speaker 3: We've got to do something.

1003
01:01:23,133 --> 01:01:27,453
Speaker 2: If the cavalry isn't coming. Just to stay with the context,

1004
01:01:27,733 --> 01:01:31,773
Speaker 2: then the Indians are winning the Red Indians.

1005
01:01:32,413 --> 01:01:36,013
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, well indeed, yeah, there is

1006
01:01:36,053 --> 01:01:39,333
Speaker 3: this sense of you know, this is this is barbarism

1007
01:01:39,453 --> 01:01:42,373
Speaker 3: versus civilization. Of course, we've felt that in the Middle East,

1008
01:01:42,413 --> 01:01:46,373
Speaker 3: and I mean there are lots of pluses if you

1009
01:01:46,453 --> 01:01:49,093
Speaker 3: think about it. In the last couple of years, Israel

1010
01:01:50,053 --> 01:01:53,493
Speaker 3: security is much more assured there now, we're much more

1011
01:01:54,773 --> 01:01:59,293
Speaker 3: you know, the Palestinian cause has been pushed to the

1012
01:01:59,293 --> 01:02:01,413
Speaker 3: margins of the Middle East affairs, which is where it

1013
01:02:01,413 --> 01:02:03,293
Speaker 3: should be. And we're getting on with getting on with

1014
01:02:03,373 --> 01:02:06,013
Speaker 3: other nations. So yeah, there are lots of things to

1015
01:02:06,093 --> 01:02:11,253
Speaker 3: look at which are good. Trump course they interesting experiment

1016
01:02:11,333 --> 01:02:14,413
Speaker 3: there in pushing back the universities and some of this

1017
01:02:14,533 --> 01:02:18,133
Speaker 3: other warkness. Things we can learn from there. Let's see,

1018
01:02:18,173 --> 01:02:19,053
Speaker 3: let's see where we go.

1019
01:02:19,813 --> 01:02:23,413
Speaker 2: All right, One last question then from out of this

1020
01:02:23,453 --> 01:02:27,053
Speaker 2: is out of context a column written by Jonathan Turley,

1021
01:02:27,453 --> 01:02:32,413
Speaker 2: law professor from Washington, DC on the pledge of Zoran

1022
01:02:32,773 --> 01:02:37,653
Speaker 2: Mamdani to end some of the early Gifted and Talented

1023
01:02:37,693 --> 01:02:41,493
Speaker 2: programs in the New York educational system. The move is

1024
01:02:41,653 --> 01:02:45,453
Speaker 2: part of a national campaign against such programs as racist

1025
01:02:45,733 --> 01:02:48,933
Speaker 2: and or privileged due to the high percentage of white

1026
01:02:49,053 --> 01:02:52,813
Speaker 2: and Asian students who qualify. The fear is that the

1027
01:02:52,853 --> 01:02:57,973
Speaker 2: Mamdani administration will return to the disastrous policies of Deblasio

1028
01:02:59,173 --> 01:03:02,893
Speaker 2: in rolling back on the programs that was the introduction.

1029
01:03:03,333 --> 01:03:06,973
Speaker 2: This is the column that he wrote. Mamdarmi appears to

1030
01:03:07,053 --> 01:03:09,973
Speaker 2: have a plan for lib the playing field in education.

1031
01:03:10,213 --> 01:03:13,893
Speaker 2: Faced with a huge number of students with comparatively dismal

1032
01:03:13,973 --> 01:03:17,573
Speaker 2: scores in maths, English, and science, Mandani is going to

1033
01:03:17,693 --> 01:03:22,253
Speaker 2: bulldoze higher achieving programs. It's a pledge that only a

1034
01:03:22,333 --> 01:03:26,493
Speaker 2: Soviet central planner would relish. I just wonder you must

1035
01:03:26,533 --> 01:03:28,813
Speaker 2: have been paying a little attention to him.

1036
01:03:29,213 --> 01:03:32,853
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I'm mystified as to why he's the front runner,

1037
01:03:32,893 --> 01:03:35,973
Speaker 3: but they tell me he is. I just don't understand that.

1038
01:03:36,053 --> 01:03:41,133
Speaker 3: But yeah, but that is that is pushing, that's going

1039
01:03:41,213 --> 01:03:45,653
Speaker 3: back on all the progress that's been made in recent

1040
01:03:45,773 --> 01:03:51,933
Speaker 3: years with local school boards and incentive schemes for teachers

1041
01:03:52,013 --> 01:03:57,013
Speaker 3: to actually help their current crop of students improve. You know,

1042
01:03:57,053 --> 01:04:00,533
Speaker 3: they get judged to put according to the improvement their

1043
01:04:00,613 --> 01:04:03,133
Speaker 3: group of students makes a year on year, not on

1044
01:04:03,333 --> 01:04:07,613
Speaker 3: the overall figure. It's a failed policy. We've seen it

1045
01:04:07,653 --> 01:04:12,093
Speaker 3: time and timing again that you can't you know, if

1046
01:04:12,093 --> 01:04:16,173
Speaker 3: you do, if you try and positively discriminate against you know,

1047
01:04:16,253 --> 01:04:20,413
Speaker 3: some pressed group or whatever, then you are negatively discriminating

1048
01:04:20,453 --> 01:04:23,773
Speaker 3: against other children. And if you positively discriminate in favor

1049
01:04:23,813 --> 01:04:25,853
Speaker 3: of kids who don't do very well at school, you

1050
01:04:25,933 --> 01:04:29,213
Speaker 3: negatively discriminate against those who do do well. We need

1051
01:04:29,253 --> 01:04:36,413
Speaker 3: to celebrate excellence and and this is yeah, it is all.

1052
01:04:36,773 --> 01:04:38,973
Speaker 3: They'll go through this process, it will fail again, and

1053
01:04:39,373 --> 01:04:41,453
Speaker 3: we'll go back to correct it. But I just don't

1054
01:04:41,493 --> 01:04:44,173
Speaker 3: know why we don't learn those lessons once and for all.

1055
01:04:44,453 --> 01:04:48,813
Speaker 2: Indeed, all right, in my introduction, I as I got

1056
01:04:48,893 --> 01:04:52,773
Speaker 2: round to it, I left out television. You're doing quite

1057
01:04:52,813 --> 01:04:56,933
Speaker 2: a bit of television now, from both home and overseas.

1058
01:04:57,173 --> 01:05:00,933
Speaker 3: You're enjoying it, Yeah, I do. It sharpens you up

1059
01:05:00,973 --> 01:05:03,093
Speaker 3: a bit, doesn't it. I mean I was fine. You know,

1060
01:05:03,133 --> 01:05:06,093
Speaker 3: you can sit here pondering on an essay like the

1061
01:05:06,093 --> 01:05:08,613
Speaker 3: one you've been we've been talking about in quadri, but

1062
01:05:08,653 --> 01:05:11,933
Speaker 3: then you've got to go on Sky News and talk

1063
01:05:11,973 --> 01:05:16,213
Speaker 3: about three hot topics of the day. It's a good

1064
01:05:16,253 --> 01:05:20,053
Speaker 3: exercise in just getting your mind straight and your thoughts clear.

1065
01:05:20,253 --> 01:05:22,413
Speaker 3: So I enjoy it from that point of view, and

1066
01:05:22,453 --> 01:05:24,573
Speaker 3: I'm enjoying the conversation on there because you're off and

1067
01:05:24,613 --> 01:05:27,733
Speaker 3: on with some really smart people like Peter Credlin, who

1068
01:05:28,573 --> 01:05:31,093
Speaker 3: put up so I enjoy that, and I get the

1069
01:05:31,093 --> 01:05:34,093
Speaker 3: impression of people often say they like my contributions, so

1070
01:05:34,373 --> 01:05:36,933
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm doing something worthwhile.

1071
01:05:38,413 --> 01:05:40,973
Speaker 2: Well, you've been doing that for quite a while. It

1072
01:05:41,053 --> 01:05:42,893
Speaker 2: may be unfair of me to say that. I know

1073
01:05:42,973 --> 01:05:46,413
Speaker 2: that you're working on another book. It'll come out sometime

1074
01:05:46,453 --> 01:05:50,493
Speaker 2: next year, hopefully early, and I'm not even going to

1075
01:05:50,533 --> 01:05:52,893
Speaker 2: ask you unless you want to tell what a time.

1076
01:05:53,493 --> 01:05:56,093
Speaker 3: Well, i'll give you the title. It's called Delusions, A

1077
01:05:56,213 --> 01:06:00,893
Speaker 3: Short History of Bad Ideas. So that'll give you an

1078
01:06:00,933 --> 01:06:03,053
Speaker 3: idea it. It explains why it's taken me so long

1079
01:06:03,093 --> 01:06:06,213
Speaker 3: to write it, actually, because the more these bad ideas

1080
01:06:06,253 --> 01:06:07,613
Speaker 3: you look at, the more you find.

1081
01:06:08,573 --> 01:06:12,173
Speaker 2: How long does it take once you've finished, it goes

1082
01:06:12,213 --> 01:06:15,093
Speaker 2: off to proof read, be proof read or whatever. How

1083
01:06:15,133 --> 01:06:16,493
Speaker 2: long does it take for publishing?

1084
01:06:17,093 --> 01:06:19,693
Speaker 3: Well, it can take anything up to nine months with

1085
01:06:19,853 --> 01:06:23,453
Speaker 3: some publishers. Depends on the publisher and how much care

1086
01:06:23,493 --> 01:06:27,573
Speaker 3: they take. But yeah, it is quite a long process,

1087
01:06:27,613 --> 01:06:31,293
Speaker 3: and rightly so. Because you've committed something to book form,

1088
01:06:31,733 --> 01:06:34,493
Speaker 3: you can't afford to have any mistakes in there, or

1089
01:06:34,533 --> 01:06:38,533
Speaker 3: any typographical errors. You've got to get the chapters and

1090
01:06:38,613 --> 01:06:44,533
Speaker 3: everything really sharp. So yeah, it's an interesting process, which

1091
01:06:44,893 --> 01:06:47,613
Speaker 3: I quite enjoy in a way, but you're always impatient

1092
01:06:47,653 --> 01:06:49,333
Speaker 3: to get the thing out there move on to the

1093
01:06:49,373 --> 01:06:49,813
Speaker 3: next one.

1094
01:06:50,093 --> 01:06:53,693
Speaker 2: Anyway, It's been great talking with you again, terrific, always

1095
01:06:53,733 --> 01:07:13,933
Speaker 2: pleasure it is. Thank you, Nick, Thanks Latin. I went

1096
01:07:13,973 --> 01:07:15,893
Speaker 2: to the mail room for podcast A number three hundred

1097
01:07:15,933 --> 01:07:18,693
Speaker 2: and seven, and we're very, very privileged to have missus

1098
01:07:18,693 --> 01:07:22,053
Speaker 2: producer put in an appearance. Welcome high later. I've got

1099
01:07:22,053 --> 01:07:25,253
Speaker 2: a house full of overseas guests and it's.

1100
01:07:25,133 --> 01:07:27,253
Speaker 4: Chaotic here we do and it is chaos.

1101
01:07:27,253 --> 01:07:29,813
Speaker 2: Thank you for putting your best foot forward.

1102
01:07:31,293 --> 01:07:34,933
Speaker 4: Laton, You've got a wonderfully long letter from Stephen, and

1103
01:07:35,133 --> 01:07:37,573
Speaker 4: Stephen forgive me. I'm going to have to edit the

1104
01:07:37,613 --> 01:07:39,813
Speaker 4: hell out of it. I'm afraid because we just don't

1105
01:07:39,813 --> 01:07:42,533
Speaker 4: have time. But hopefully I'll give you some of the

1106
01:07:42,653 --> 01:07:45,373
Speaker 4: essence of it. He says. I found the program on

1107
01:07:45,413 --> 01:07:48,453
Speaker 4: the fifteenth of October with the Israeli ambassador and George Freeman.

1108
01:07:48,613 --> 01:07:51,813
Speaker 4: Very interesting. Having spent a quarter of my working life

1109
01:07:51,893 --> 01:07:54,973
Speaker 4: in the Middle East in Saudi Arabia in the seventies,

1110
01:07:55,453 --> 01:07:58,733
Speaker 4: I think I have a slightly different perspective on the situation.

1111
01:07:59,333 --> 01:08:02,453
Speaker 4: Then he goes on to say that Arabs are highly tribal.

1112
01:08:02,493 --> 01:08:06,773
Speaker 4: They're not a homogeneoust racial group as so many commentators

1113
01:08:06,853 --> 01:08:10,653
Speaker 4: like to catalog them. And he says that the Palestinians

1114
01:08:10,693 --> 01:08:14,013
Speaker 4: basically are despised by other Arabs that considered a problem

1115
01:08:14,053 --> 01:08:16,893
Speaker 4: that won't go away, and all they do is cause trouble.

1116
01:08:17,693 --> 01:08:20,293
Speaker 4: So he says, now we come to the current crisis.

1117
01:08:20,453 --> 01:08:24,613
Speaker 4: Many Western countries and overtly Arab countries call for a

1118
01:08:24,653 --> 01:08:28,973
Speaker 4: two state solution. All a two state solution will achieve,

1119
01:08:29,013 --> 01:08:32,213
Speaker 4: he says, as a platform for rivalry. As long as

1120
01:08:32,213 --> 01:08:36,453
Speaker 4: the Palestinians covert Israel, there will be trouble. And the

1121
01:08:36,533 --> 01:08:38,933
Speaker 4: idea of Gaza being a Singapore of the Middle East

1122
01:08:39,013 --> 01:08:42,733
Speaker 4: is absolute pie in the sky. So what of the future,

1123
01:08:42,773 --> 01:08:45,293
Speaker 4: he says, I think, but few will agree with me

1124
01:08:45,413 --> 01:08:48,493
Speaker 4: that what needs to happen is that Israel must annex

1125
01:08:48,693 --> 01:08:52,213
Speaker 4: Gaza and the West Bank. He must must be annihilated,

1126
01:08:52,253 --> 01:08:56,093
Speaker 4: and the other militias must be disarmed. The Palestinians must

1127
01:08:56,173 --> 01:09:01,253
Speaker 4: be assimilated into Israeli society or given the chance to leave.

1128
01:09:01,973 --> 01:09:04,813
Speaker 4: This gets rid of the Palestinian problem. For the other

1129
01:09:04,973 --> 01:09:07,533
Speaker 4: Arabs and for the Jews, they will have to learn

1130
01:09:07,573 --> 01:09:11,733
Speaker 4: to live with them, these Palestinians, and forgive the recent history.

1131
01:09:11,813 --> 01:09:15,653
Speaker 4: In a multi ethnic society not a big ask as

1132
01:09:15,893 --> 01:09:19,773
Speaker 4: Israel is composed of so many different groups. As the

1133
01:09:19,813 --> 01:09:25,373
Speaker 4: ambassador said, Israel is already composed of different ethnicities, including Arabs,

1134
01:09:25,413 --> 01:09:29,093
Speaker 4: and of many different religions. This is not an impossible task.

1135
01:09:29,453 --> 01:09:35,693
Speaker 4: And assimilation demolishes the coveting of Israeli lands by the Palestinians. Stephen,

1136
01:09:35,733 --> 01:09:38,453
Speaker 4: I hope I've done that justice, and we have both

1137
01:09:38,493 --> 01:09:41,893
Speaker 4: read your very thoughtful peace, So thank you so much.

1138
01:09:42,013 --> 01:09:45,213
Speaker 2: Yes, And I don't disagree with them, well really any

1139
01:09:45,253 --> 01:09:48,653
Speaker 2: of it, essentially, just a little disappointed that a few

1140
01:09:48,653 --> 01:09:51,133
Speaker 2: people when when I ask the question, as I have

1141
01:09:51,213 --> 01:09:56,453
Speaker 2: done once or twice of interviewees, of why the other

1142
01:09:57,253 --> 01:10:01,413
Speaker 2: Arab states won't touch the Palestinians don't want them, I

1143
01:10:01,453 --> 01:10:04,733
Speaker 2: know the answer. I'm really asking it to flesh out

1144
01:10:04,773 --> 01:10:08,893
Speaker 2: the interview for those who who don't know it anyway.

1145
01:10:09,173 --> 01:10:15,933
Speaker 2: That's just my comment. So from from Gin, whatever happened

1146
01:10:15,933 --> 01:10:20,693
Speaker 2: in Australia happened in New Zealand. Two, the imbecilic Tony Burke.

1147
01:10:21,213 --> 01:10:23,413
Speaker 2: Why limit it to Tony Burke. There's plenty of them there.

1148
01:10:23,773 --> 01:10:27,613
Speaker 2: The imbecilic Tony Burke and the Australian High Court's decision

1149
01:10:27,693 --> 01:10:31,933
Speaker 2: to ban Candace Owens from her Australian shows has caused

1150
01:10:31,973 --> 01:10:35,973
Speaker 2: Candace to cancel all her New Zealand shows too. I'm

1151
01:10:36,013 --> 01:10:40,773
Speaker 2: gutted have Australians lost their spines? At least Wei Kiwi

1152
01:10:40,893 --> 01:10:44,693
Speaker 2: set a strong signal against immigration New Zealand to unbanned

1153
01:10:44,733 --> 01:10:50,333
Speaker 2: Candace Owens. With credit to National MP Chris Penk new

1154
01:10:50,453 --> 01:10:54,973
Speaker 2: Zealanders are increasingly exercising their voices against well our voices,

1155
01:10:55,013 --> 01:10:59,893
Speaker 2: he says, against bureaucratic overreach and tyranny. The Free Speech

1156
01:11:00,013 --> 01:11:04,293
Speaker 2: Union recently led the backlash against the BSA from expanding

1157
01:11:04,333 --> 01:11:08,173
Speaker 2: its powers to regulate online media. Within a matter of days,

1158
01:11:08,213 --> 01:11:11,053
Speaker 2: more than two thousand New Zealanders have emailed Media and

1159
01:11:11,093 --> 01:11:15,013
Speaker 2: Communications Minister Paul Goldsmith, a good aunt Sean Plunkett, for

1160
01:11:15,133 --> 01:11:20,893
Speaker 2: courageously exposing BSA's sly attempt to bully him and the platform.

1161
01:11:21,613 --> 01:11:24,293
Speaker 2: I've never ever heard of anyone referred to Trump as

1162
01:11:24,333 --> 01:11:28,093
Speaker 2: a manifestation of the right thing to do, Yet that

1163
01:11:28,213 --> 01:11:32,373
Speaker 2: was a highly accurate description by Alan Ross. The late

1164
01:11:32,413 --> 01:11:36,093
Speaker 2: Billy Graham said that quote when a brave man takes

1165
01:11:36,133 --> 01:11:39,973
Speaker 2: a stand, the spines of others are often stiffened clothes.

1166
01:11:41,253 --> 01:11:45,213
Speaker 2: Happy fortieth oh yes, happy fortieth z By birthday, lateon.

1167
01:11:45,893 --> 01:11:49,333
Speaker 2: Keep taking a stand on truths, so our spines are stiffened,

1168
01:11:49,373 --> 01:11:53,133
Speaker 2: and may we all be manifestations of the right thing

1169
01:11:53,253 --> 01:11:56,493
Speaker 2: to do. I'm going to throw another comment in there.

1170
01:11:58,213 --> 01:12:01,173
Speaker 2: I got a few, I got quite a few emails

1171
01:12:01,213 --> 01:12:05,853
Speaker 2: regarding the platform. My thought was simply that Plunkett is

1172
01:12:06,773 --> 01:12:11,413
Speaker 2: big enough to take care of himself. But in principle

1173
01:12:11,413 --> 01:12:12,013
Speaker 2: I agree with you.

1174
01:12:13,013 --> 01:12:17,373
Speaker 4: Laydon Ross says, great podcast as usual for three six.

1175
01:12:17,573 --> 01:12:19,933
Speaker 4: I love listening to George Friedman when you have him on,

1176
01:12:20,053 --> 01:12:22,613
Speaker 4: and I contrast him to another line of commentary that

1177
01:12:22,693 --> 01:12:26,133
Speaker 4: I regularly listen to, and that is the Duran. That's

1178
01:12:26,213 --> 01:12:32,253
Speaker 4: another website. Both provide a narrative and analysis on what

1179
01:12:32,333 --> 01:12:35,173
Speaker 4: is happening in global politics that are sadly missing in

1180
01:12:35,253 --> 01:12:39,253
Speaker 4: the legacy New Zealand media. Both, of course, are unashamedly

1181
01:12:39,333 --> 01:12:43,573
Speaker 4: attempting to critically address merits of decision making of Western

1182
01:12:43,613 --> 01:12:48,413
Speaker 4: politicians and are focusing on what role Trump is currently

1183
01:12:48,453 --> 01:12:51,533
Speaker 4: playing in world affairs. However, the contrast between the two

1184
01:12:51,653 --> 01:12:55,813
Speaker 4: cannot be more obvious George would maintain that China is weak,

1185
01:12:55,933 --> 01:12:58,693
Speaker 4: Russia is about to fail, and that US and Trump

1186
01:12:58,733 --> 01:13:01,893
Speaker 4: are proceeding well in order to bring the Ukrainian conflict

1187
01:13:02,013 --> 01:13:06,293
Speaker 4: to a conclusion. The Duran alternative would state the West

1188
01:13:06,413 --> 01:13:12,493
Speaker 4: has essentially exhausted itself through decades of mismanagement and globalist ideology,

1189
01:13:12,573 --> 01:13:13,973
Speaker 4: and might as well face up to the fact that

1190
01:13:14,093 --> 01:13:17,533
Speaker 4: Russia has won. Trump should pull out and say, if

1191
01:13:17,573 --> 01:13:20,133
Speaker 4: you Europeans wish to keep going, have it, but it

1192
01:13:20,173 --> 01:13:25,173
Speaker 4: will be without the USA supply chain. Unfortunately, he listens

1193
01:13:25,253 --> 01:13:29,693
Speaker 4: to the neocons in Washington. China meanwhile, is sitting back

1194
01:13:29,733 --> 01:13:34,413
Speaker 4: watching the West exhaust itself. Our globalist politicians over the

1195
01:13:34,493 --> 01:13:37,493
Speaker 4: last thirty years have destroyed industry in the West and

1196
01:13:37,573 --> 01:13:41,413
Speaker 4: our ideological and cultural basis. And I'm afraid this will

1197
01:13:41,453 --> 01:13:44,573
Speaker 4: take some time. I think a couple of generations at

1198
01:13:44,653 --> 01:13:48,693
Speaker 4: least to reverse. And Ross goes on to say, the

1199
01:13:48,733 --> 01:13:51,493
Speaker 4: next couple of weeks are going to be extremely interesting,

1200
01:13:51,813 --> 01:13:55,173
Speaker 4: especially this meeting in Hungary. Trump has to listen to

1201
01:13:55,293 --> 01:13:59,653
Speaker 4: Victor Orban Hungarian PM and putin as it could be

1202
01:13:59,693 --> 01:14:03,653
Speaker 4: the last opportunity to finish this without a major issue happening.

1203
01:14:03,973 --> 01:14:06,373
Speaker 4: Let's see what happens. Very best to you both, and

1204
01:14:06,413 --> 01:14:07,653
Speaker 4: that's from Ross Ross.

1205
01:14:07,693 --> 01:14:12,133
Speaker 2: Very good, thank you. I am disappointed, right, Smike. I'm

1206
01:14:12,173 --> 01:14:17,293
Speaker 2: disappointed that George started his answer about so called Palestine

1207
01:14:17,293 --> 01:14:20,613
Speaker 2: from nineteen forty eight. He should have started way back

1208
01:14:20,653 --> 01:14:24,453
Speaker 2: before them. Now, there was never a state called Palestine. Yes,

1209
01:14:24,533 --> 01:14:28,453
Speaker 2: a arafat first called these Arabs Palestinians. The Arabs living

1210
01:14:28,493 --> 01:14:32,093
Speaker 2: in Gaza came from Jordan because of discontent in Jordan.

1211
01:14:32,613 --> 01:14:35,853
Speaker 2: They came to Gaza because they could have jobs, et cetera,

1212
01:14:36,413 --> 01:14:40,813
Speaker 2: working for the very successful Jewish farmers and businesses in Israel.

1213
01:14:41,613 --> 01:14:44,933
Speaker 2: I haven't read the book Son of Hamas, but I

1214
01:14:44,973 --> 01:14:49,093
Speaker 2: have seen YouTube videos where he that being the sun

1215
01:14:49,413 --> 01:14:53,453
Speaker 2: whose name escapes me for a minute, where he explains

1216
01:14:53,573 --> 01:14:58,453
Speaker 2: the history. But you could have commented on how successful

1217
01:14:58,533 --> 01:15:02,973
Speaker 2: he has become in pairing off with others rather than

1218
01:15:03,053 --> 01:15:06,733
Speaker 2: with the Ghazans if you like, or the Palastine whatever. Also,

1219
01:15:07,093 --> 01:15:10,653
Speaker 2: Fox News does not always obtained video of events as

1220
01:15:10,653 --> 01:15:13,773
Speaker 2: they unfold. To get this type of content on Israel,

1221
01:15:13,973 --> 01:15:19,813
Speaker 2: see TBNTV and tuc Tusi TV if you want to

1222
01:15:20,093 --> 01:15:23,853
Speaker 2: news as it unfolds. I don't know are they on

1223
01:15:24,373 --> 01:15:29,653
Speaker 2: Sky I have absolutely no idea, but maybe I shall investigate.

1224
01:15:29,893 --> 01:15:31,693
Speaker 2: Kind regards, Michael, thank you, mate.

1225
01:15:32,573 --> 01:15:35,253
Speaker 4: Leiden Brett says, are you sure about Trump? Just saw

1226
01:15:35,293 --> 01:15:38,493
Speaker 4: a handshake with Putin on TV one News on the

1227
01:15:38,493 --> 01:15:42,093
Speaker 4: seventeenth of October. It's unclear when the picture was used.

1228
01:15:42,213 --> 01:15:45,693
Speaker 4: The two men were seated, Trump offered his hand to Putin.

1229
01:15:46,373 --> 01:15:49,853
Speaker 4: Trump's hand was fully facing up from the outset, and

1230
01:15:49,933 --> 01:15:52,813
Speaker 4: Putin's hand went over the top, which is often considered

1231
01:15:52,853 --> 01:15:56,653
Speaker 4: the dominant position. Body language experts would have a field

1232
01:15:56,733 --> 01:16:01,733
Speaker 4: day analyzing these two together. Trump's predecessor ensured Ukraine couldn't

1233
01:16:01,733 --> 01:16:05,533
Speaker 4: win the war by placing restrictions on Ukraine's use of weaponry,

1234
01:16:05,573 --> 01:16:09,813
Speaker 4: among withholding other critical supports. Russia hasn't been able to

1235
01:16:09,813 --> 01:16:12,573
Speaker 4: finish Ukraine off, so we have a protracted war which

1236
01:16:12,573 --> 01:16:16,733
Speaker 4: will not be able to be sustained indefinitely. I'm wary

1237
01:16:16,773 --> 01:16:19,613
Speaker 4: of any deal Trump would want to make regarding this conflict.

1238
01:16:19,933 --> 01:16:22,973
Speaker 4: A deal is not always the best outcome for longer

1239
01:16:23,093 --> 01:16:25,133
Speaker 4: term implications, and that's from Rett.

1240
01:16:25,813 --> 01:16:31,373
Speaker 2: Htt You've got a weight with Trump. Trump will do

1241
01:16:31,493 --> 01:16:34,253
Speaker 2: something and then double down on it or back off

1242
01:16:34,253 --> 01:16:39,733
Speaker 2: it or whatever. But he's he's the man now from Sally.

1243
01:16:40,213 --> 01:16:44,493
Speaker 2: Subject Gaza is very very short. Subject Gaza. I listen

1244
01:16:44,613 --> 01:16:49,053
Speaker 2: with great interest, good timing, latent kind regards Sally from

1245
01:16:49,093 --> 01:16:53,493
Speaker 2: the first cruise on the Windsurf and Italy, which was

1246
01:16:54,893 --> 01:16:57,773
Speaker 2: about when was it? It was the first cruise that

1247
01:16:57,853 --> 01:17:01,173
Speaker 2: we did. It couldn't be the first cruise we did.

1248
01:17:01,253 --> 01:17:03,613
Speaker 2: It was the first cruise after we did the New

1249
01:17:03,733 --> 01:17:08,173
Speaker 2: Orleans to the Caribbean cruise and back again. And I

1250
01:17:08,373 --> 01:17:09,813
Speaker 2: reckon that was in the late nineties.

1251
01:17:10,373 --> 01:17:12,213
Speaker 4: Oh, don't look at me late and I've got a shop.

1252
01:17:12,533 --> 01:17:15,253
Speaker 2: I think I think this one was early two thousand.

1253
01:17:15,373 --> 01:17:17,853
Speaker 4: It's Sally. It's lovely to hear from you. Thank you

1254
01:17:17,933 --> 01:17:21,293
Speaker 4: so much for still listening and communicating. I hope you're well.

1255
01:17:21,413 --> 01:17:24,413
Speaker 2: Yeah, would you be available for another one? That's the question?

1256
01:17:24,533 --> 01:17:26,213
Speaker 4: Anybody want to go on another one?

1257
01:17:25,893 --> 01:17:30,533
Speaker 2: I keep getting asked, so missus producer, that'll do? Oh

1258
01:17:30,693 --> 01:17:37,333
Speaker 2: hang on, this is this is a travelogue, right, yeah,

1259
01:17:37,453 --> 01:17:39,973
Speaker 2: very long. I'll give you a taste. As a long

1260
01:17:40,013 --> 01:17:42,893
Speaker 2: time listener to your broadcast, I've always appreciated the clarity

1261
01:17:42,973 --> 01:17:46,933
Speaker 2: and independence of thought you bring to your commentaries and interviews.

1262
01:17:47,693 --> 01:17:52,373
Speaker 2: I appreciate that, truly. I've also followed Patrick Basham's appearances

1263
01:17:52,493 --> 01:17:55,133
Speaker 2: with interest over the years, and I've often found his

1264
01:17:55,333 --> 01:18:00,653
Speaker 2: insights into political trends both astute and thought provoking. I

1265
01:18:00,693 --> 01:18:03,853
Speaker 2: must send this to Patrick. It was therefore with some

1266
01:18:03,893 --> 01:18:06,613
Speaker 2: surprise that I found my own recent experiences in the

1267
01:18:06,773 --> 01:18:10,093
Speaker 2: United States, particularly in the cities or the very cities

1268
01:18:10,133 --> 01:18:14,533
Speaker 2: mentioned in your discussion with Patrick, to differ markedly from

1269
01:18:14,613 --> 01:18:19,293
Speaker 2: the rather pessimistic tone of that interview. Over the past

1270
01:18:19,373 --> 01:18:22,373
Speaker 2: sixteen months, my wife and I, both in our sixties,

1271
01:18:22,733 --> 01:18:26,773
Speaker 2: have made three separate visits from New Zealand, spending a

1272
01:18:26,893 --> 01:18:31,693
Speaker 2: total of six weeks exploring eight American cities, and there

1273
01:18:31,733 --> 01:18:34,373
Speaker 2: I shall park it and I may include that at

1274
01:18:34,453 --> 01:18:36,933
Speaker 2: the very end of the podcast.

1275
01:18:36,413 --> 01:18:39,893
Speaker 4: Today beautiful, thank you, thank you later.

1276
01:18:39,733 --> 01:18:59,213
Speaker 2: And we shall see you very soon and again next week. Now,

1277
01:18:59,253 --> 01:19:02,053
Speaker 2: I thought that that was a very interesting discussion with

1278
01:19:02,173 --> 01:19:05,653
Speaker 2: Nick Cator, and considering the amount of information in it,

1279
01:19:05,653 --> 01:19:08,453
Speaker 2: an opinion in it, etc. I actually know what to

1280
01:19:08,573 --> 01:19:12,893
Speaker 2: add to it because this will verify much of what

1281
01:19:13,213 --> 01:19:17,373
Speaker 2: was what was said, particularly by Nick, but verify nevertheless

1282
01:19:17,613 --> 01:19:20,813
Speaker 2: the conversation that we had. This is a commentary from

1283
01:19:20,973 --> 01:19:25,133
Speaker 2: the Australian newspaper written by Merco Bargerik, who is professor

1284
01:19:25,453 --> 01:19:30,933
Speaker 2: at Swinborne University and author of Australian Human Rights Law.

1285
01:19:31,413 --> 01:19:35,893
Speaker 2: At its headed Culture of Rights, fuels victorious social decline.

1286
01:19:35,933 --> 01:19:40,013
Speaker 2: I've been talking about Victoria's decline for some considerable time,

1287
01:19:40,133 --> 01:19:44,133
Speaker 2: like years. Victorious human rights Charter a recipe for decline

1288
01:19:44,173 --> 01:19:47,493
Speaker 2: and disorder. In a sure sign of a society in decline,

1289
01:19:47,573 --> 01:19:51,133
Speaker 2: Victoria Police Commander Wayne Cheeseman held up a box of

1290
01:19:51,213 --> 01:19:54,493
Speaker 2: rocks and glass bottles that had been thrown at police

1291
01:19:54,613 --> 01:19:58,613
Speaker 2: last Sunday and declared Melbourne had had a guts fall

1292
01:19:59,133 --> 01:20:03,173
Speaker 2: all things considered. His response was remarkably constrained. His members

1293
01:20:03,253 --> 01:20:07,253
Speaker 2: and the long suffering Victorian community have had to endure

1294
01:20:07,773 --> 01:20:14,053
Speaker 2: more than one hundred weeks of consecutive CBD disrupting protests. Still,

1295
01:20:14,133 --> 01:20:18,573
Speaker 2: the erosion of social harmony and civil disobedience started well

1296
01:20:18,613 --> 01:20:22,453
Speaker 2: more than one hundred weeks ago, twenty years ago, I warned,

1297
01:20:22,533 --> 01:20:26,493
Speaker 2: says the author. The professor. I warned that if Victoria

1298
01:20:26,573 --> 01:20:29,333
Speaker 2: became the first state to entrench a human rights charter,

1299
01:20:30,013 --> 01:20:35,373
Speaker 2: it would result in increased lawlessness, moral nihilism, and civic decay.

1300
01:20:36,133 --> 01:20:40,333
Speaker 2: I don't recall hearing of this professor before, but he

1301
01:20:40,453 --> 01:20:44,413
Speaker 2: was saying that twenty years ago is in very good company. Now,

1302
01:20:44,493 --> 01:20:47,493
Speaker 2: almost two decades after the enactment of the Charter of

1303
01:20:47,613 --> 01:20:52,053
Speaker 2: Human Rights and Responsibilities Act, Victoria has the highest crime

1304
01:20:52,133 --> 01:20:55,653
Speaker 2: rate on record and is the protest capital of Australia,

1305
01:20:56,213 --> 01:21:00,333
Speaker 2: with newspaper reports of violent stabbings in Melbourne appearing in

1306
01:21:00,333 --> 01:21:05,373
Speaker 2: international publications. Of course, it's not all bad in Melbourne.

1307
01:21:05,693 --> 01:21:08,333
Speaker 2: The human rights industry and the army of well paid

1308
01:21:08,373 --> 01:21:14,333
Speaker 2: public servants are flourishing little cynicism for the rest of Victoria.

1309
01:21:14,413 --> 01:21:18,613
Speaker 2: The Charter was meant to enhance individual prosperity, but it

1310
01:21:18,693 --> 01:21:22,133
Speaker 2: has done the exact opposite. Now where did we hear

1311
01:21:22,373 --> 01:21:27,813
Speaker 2: that earlier on in the podcast? That result, the Charter

1312
01:21:28,093 --> 01:21:31,893
Speaker 2: has replaced personal responsibility and the pursuit of the common

1313
01:21:31,933 --> 01:21:36,813
Speaker 2: good with an obsession on individual entitlements and grievance. More

1314
01:21:36,853 --> 01:21:39,733
Speaker 2: than two hundred years ago, one of the smartest political

1315
01:21:39,733 --> 01:21:45,773
Speaker 2: and legal scholars in history, Jeremy Bentham, stated that rights

1316
01:21:45,813 --> 01:21:50,293
Speaker 2: are nonsense on stilts. You might want to remember that.

1317
01:21:50,373 --> 01:21:55,613
Speaker 2: Write it down, use it. Rights are nonsense on stilts.

1318
01:21:56,293 --> 01:21:59,773
Speaker 2: Rights have no providence, no content, and no coherent limits.

1319
01:22:00,213 --> 01:22:05,253
Speaker 2: Rights discourse provides no logical method for distinguishing between legitimate

1320
01:22:05,293 --> 01:22:12,453
Speaker 2: individual interests and emotional appeals disguised as moral imperatives. Once codified,

1321
01:22:12,853 --> 01:22:18,813
Speaker 2: rights invite competition among citizens for competition for self made victimhood.

1322
01:22:19,293 --> 01:22:23,933
Speaker 2: It is intellectually, morally and politically shameful that in Victoria,

1323
01:22:24,133 --> 01:22:27,813
Speaker 2: the right to protest, apparently without libert has resulted in

1324
01:22:27,933 --> 01:22:31,373
Speaker 2: tangible harm and fear being inflicted on the Jewish community

1325
01:22:31,413 --> 01:22:35,933
Speaker 2: for more than two years, This apparently limitless right now

1326
01:22:36,013 --> 01:22:40,053
Speaker 2: has spilt over into wanton attacks against the police. It's

1327
01:22:40,093 --> 01:22:44,333
Speaker 2: easy to multiply the carnage caused in Victoria by rights fanaticism.

1328
01:22:44,653 --> 01:22:49,373
Speaker 2: Privacy claims, often framed as derivative of the right to

1329
01:22:49,453 --> 01:22:55,093
Speaker 2: freedom from arbitrary interference, impede the ability of institutions and

1330
01:22:55,213 --> 01:23:00,573
Speaker 2: police to use facial recognition technology or conduct knife searches

1331
01:23:00,613 --> 01:23:04,773
Speaker 2: in public places to increase community safety. The stories of

1332
01:23:04,853 --> 01:23:08,813
Speaker 2: violent criminals and their absolute right to perpetual base and

1333
01:23:08,893 --> 01:23:13,013
Speaker 2: to live a jail free life take priority over victims

1334
01:23:13,133 --> 01:23:17,493
Speaker 2: and the concern of parents for the safety of their children.

1335
01:23:18,293 --> 01:23:25,893
Speaker 2: This gross distortion has become gross institutionalized negligence. Perhaps the

1336
01:23:25,933 --> 01:23:30,613
Speaker 2: starkest demonstration of the Charter's intellectual bankruptcy came during the

1337
01:23:30,613 --> 01:23:36,493
Speaker 2: COVID pandemic. Victoria endured the longest lockdown on Earth. Because

1338
01:23:36,693 --> 01:23:41,173
Speaker 2: rights must always be balanced against limits, governments and disaffected

1339
01:23:41,173 --> 01:23:44,893
Speaker 2: citizens are free to justify almost any action by invoking

1340
01:23:45,813 --> 01:23:51,173
Speaker 2: competing rights. During the pandemic, mass movement restrictions were rationalized

1341
01:23:51,213 --> 01:23:54,933
Speaker 2: on the grounds of protecting the right to life. The

1342
01:23:55,093 --> 01:24:01,173
Speaker 2: machinery of ruthless control became self legitimating through the retoric

1343
01:24:01,213 --> 01:24:04,093
Speaker 2: of rights, Yet there was not a peep of displeasure

1344
01:24:04,453 --> 01:24:08,693
Speaker 2: from the human rights industry. Rights advocates became a partis

1345
01:24:08,853 --> 01:24:13,133
Speaker 2: for state repression. The Charter has inverted this approach. It

1346
01:24:13,213 --> 01:24:17,413
Speaker 2: demands fanaticism to rights claims over the operation of rules

1347
01:24:17,453 --> 01:24:23,453
Speaker 2: and policies that will empirically benefit society. In Victoria, the

1348
01:24:23,533 --> 01:24:27,253
Speaker 2: loudest groups, those most schooled atre training their complaints in

1349
01:24:27,613 --> 01:24:33,213
Speaker 2: rights language, and those with the most spare time receive

1350
01:24:33,253 --> 01:24:36,733
Speaker 2: the most attention. The public square is a theatre of

1351
01:24:36,813 --> 01:24:42,133
Speaker 2: grievance where outrage, not truth or civic merit, determines outcomes.

1352
01:24:42,973 --> 01:24:46,893
Speaker 2: Instead of uniting citizens through shared goals, the Charter rewards

1353
01:24:46,933 --> 01:24:51,613
Speaker 2: perpetual offense and moral outrage pursuant to the Charter, Each

1354
01:24:51,693 --> 01:24:56,533
Speaker 2: request for community resources and opportunities begins with the non

1355
01:24:56,613 --> 01:25:01,973
Speaker 2: contested assumption that every personal preference is genuine and are

1356
01:25:02,053 --> 01:25:07,453
Speaker 2: right capable of legal vindication. Police schools, hospitals, and local

1357
01:25:07,493 --> 01:25:11,293
Speaker 2: governments operate in a climate where the avoidance of litigated

1358
01:25:11,373 --> 01:25:17,333
Speaker 2: rights claims is prioritized above allocating resources, duties, and sanctions

1359
01:25:17,373 --> 01:25:21,413
Speaker 2: in a manner that advances the common good. The casualties

1360
01:25:21,453 --> 01:25:26,013
Speaker 2: of this moral inversion are ordinary Victorians, people who follow

1361
01:25:26,093 --> 01:25:30,253
Speaker 2: the law, pay taxes, expect basic order and safety, and

1362
01:25:30,413 --> 01:25:36,173
Speaker 2: belief that consequences are more important than words. Twenty years

1363
01:25:36,213 --> 01:25:40,693
Speaker 2: on Victorious, social indicators reflect the moral drift and the

1364
01:25:40,733 --> 01:25:47,493
Speaker 2: associated abdication of policy decisions based on empirical leanings about

1365
01:25:47,933 --> 01:25:52,133
Speaker 2: resource allocation that best promote the common good. It's not

1366
01:25:52,173 --> 01:25:57,373
Speaker 2: surprising that Victoria has the highest crime, most protests, greatest

1367
01:25:57,413 --> 01:26:02,213
Speaker 2: social disharmony, and highest taxes and unemployment of any state

1368
01:26:02,293 --> 01:26:06,613
Speaker 2: in the country. Policy decisions and rules directed at appeasing

1369
01:26:06,733 --> 01:26:10,013
Speaker 2: a me me me culture can logically never benefit the

1370
01:26:10,013 --> 01:26:14,533
Speaker 2: common good. The Charter did not create these pathologies, but

1371
01:26:14,653 --> 01:26:18,493
Speaker 2: it entrenched the moral and political vocabulary that justifies them.

1372
01:26:19,133 --> 01:26:23,093
Speaker 2: To restore stability in Victoria, the Charter must be repealed.

1373
01:26:24,013 --> 01:26:28,773
Speaker 2: Societies thrive when the law reflects rational moral principles and

1374
01:26:28,893 --> 01:26:34,733
Speaker 2: empirical understandings about the allocation of benefits and burdens that

1375
01:26:34,893 --> 01:26:40,173
Speaker 2: benefit the overall community, as opposed to fashionable moral screeds.

1376
01:26:40,973 --> 01:26:46,973
Speaker 2: The end Rko Bargovic, professor at Swinburne University, which is

1377
01:26:46,973 --> 01:26:50,893
Speaker 2: in the heart of Melbourne, and author of Australian human

1378
01:26:50,973 --> 01:27:04,013
Speaker 2: rights law. You know, there's one thing that frustrates me greatly,

1379
01:27:04,173 --> 01:27:06,653
Speaker 2: and that is that there will be no repercussions for

1380
01:27:06,693 --> 01:27:11,893
Speaker 2: anybody in Victoria, people who've screwed up the state, destroyed it, well,

1381
01:27:12,493 --> 01:27:16,453
Speaker 2: pretty close to it. It's not far off unless something

1382
01:27:16,493 --> 01:27:18,253
Speaker 2: happens dramatically and soon.

1383
01:27:18,973 --> 01:27:19,093
Speaker 3: Uh.

1384
01:27:19,213 --> 01:27:20,893
Speaker 2: And then you've got this country of course, and the

1385
01:27:20,933 --> 01:27:25,773
Speaker 2: same principle applies here in a different way, but still

1386
01:27:25,813 --> 01:27:29,093
Speaker 2: it's the same sort of principle anyway. That will take

1387
01:27:29,173 --> 01:27:33,013
Speaker 2: us out for podcast number three hundred and seven. So

1388
01:27:33,133 --> 01:27:35,453
Speaker 2: if you'd like to write to us Layton at Newstalks

1389
01:27:35,453 --> 01:27:39,013
Speaker 2: ab dot co dot nz or Carolyn the Newstalks ab

1390
01:27:39,133 --> 01:27:42,453
Speaker 2: dot co dot enz, we love your mail and keep it,

1391
01:27:42,693 --> 01:27:46,293
Speaker 2: keep it flowing. And what else is there to say? Well,

1392
01:27:46,613 --> 01:27:49,533
Speaker 2: it's been a very interesting podcast. I think for me anyway,

1393
01:27:49,693 --> 01:27:53,013
Speaker 2: I trust for you. We shall of course be back

1394
01:27:53,253 --> 01:27:55,973
Speaker 2: in a week with three to oh a week three

1395
01:27:56,053 --> 01:27:59,293
Speaker 2: oh eight. Until then, as always, thank you for listening

1396
01:27:59,893 --> 01:28:08,893
Speaker 2: and we'll talk soon, predict.

1397
01:28:09,253 --> 01:28:12,293
Speaker 3: Thank you for more from News Talk st B.

1398
01:28:12,573 --> 01:28:15,813
Speaker 1: Listen live on air or online, and keep our shows

1399
01:28:15,853 --> 01:28:19,173
Speaker 1: with you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio