1 00:00:06,667 --> 00:00:10,427 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Sport Podcast with Jason Vine 2 00:00:10,707 --> 00:00:11,747 Speaker 1: from Newstalk ZEDB. 3 00:00:12,747 --> 00:00:14,627 Speaker 2: To wrap the show today, pleasure to be joined by 4 00:00:14,667 --> 00:00:19,387 Speaker 2: one of our most popular regulars, coaching guru, Wayne Goldsmith, 5 00:00:19,507 --> 00:00:21,707 Speaker 2: joins us. Wayne, thanks for taking the time, Happy Easter. 6 00:00:22,227 --> 00:00:25,387 Speaker 2: Easter is all about renewal and I wanted to talk 7 00:00:25,427 --> 00:00:28,787 Speaker 2: to you about that concept in a sporting sense, renewing 8 00:00:28,827 --> 00:00:32,107 Speaker 2: yourself as a coach or as a player. So in 9 00:00:32,147 --> 00:00:36,427 Speaker 2: general terms, first of all, ken athletes and coaches truly 10 00:00:36,627 --> 00:00:41,027 Speaker 2: change themselves, change the habits of a lifetime in many instances. 11 00:00:41,507 --> 00:00:44,307 Speaker 2: Well hello are you, my friend, and Happy Easter to 12 00:00:44,547 --> 00:00:47,627 Speaker 2: all our wonderful listeners and all the audience right around 13 00:00:47,667 --> 00:00:49,387 Speaker 2: New Zealand and of course the rest of the world. 14 00:00:49,907 --> 00:00:52,747 Speaker 3: But yeah, look, I think they can. 15 00:00:53,187 --> 00:00:55,987 Speaker 4: But I think, as it is with all change, the 16 00:00:56,027 --> 00:00:58,067 Speaker 4: first part of the process. 17 00:00:57,667 --> 00:01:00,747 Speaker 3: Is accepting that change is necessary. 18 00:01:00,827 --> 00:01:04,507 Speaker 4: And you know it's never been more important in the 19 00:01:04,547 --> 00:01:08,427 Speaker 4: current climate with AI and with the Internet, that everybody's 20 00:01:08,467 --> 00:01:11,787 Speaker 4: got access to more or less the same information. And 21 00:01:12,147 --> 00:01:16,267 Speaker 4: if you're looking for an edge in just getting more information, 22 00:01:16,387 --> 00:01:18,867 Speaker 4: well you might be looking at the wrong path because 23 00:01:18,907 --> 00:01:23,707 Speaker 4: everybody's got access to that that same central pool of data. 24 00:01:23,947 --> 00:01:27,307 Speaker 4: Where change really makes the difference is, you know, can 25 00:01:27,387 --> 00:01:30,307 Speaker 4: you think differently? Can you think differently and think different things? 26 00:01:30,587 --> 00:01:35,027 Speaker 4: Can you talk differently? And then can you do different actions? 27 00:01:35,067 --> 00:01:38,787 Speaker 4: Can you implement behavior change? That's where it's really at. 28 00:01:39,227 --> 00:01:41,107 Speaker 4: I think a lot of people get stuck in the 29 00:01:41,107 --> 00:01:43,267 Speaker 4: information face pinety. I think they go, you know, I 30 00:01:43,307 --> 00:01:46,307 Speaker 4: need to do I need to read more about football, 31 00:01:46,427 --> 00:01:48,827 Speaker 4: or I need to read more about rugby on netball. 32 00:01:49,387 --> 00:01:51,827 Speaker 4: But then when you actually say, what are you going 33 00:01:51,867 --> 00:01:53,867 Speaker 4: to do with that information? And how are you going 34 00:01:53,907 --> 00:01:56,507 Speaker 4: to change what you do and how you do it, 35 00:01:56,827 --> 00:01:57,987 Speaker 4: that's a whole nother question. 36 00:01:58,587 --> 00:02:00,947 Speaker 2: The other thing that you've touched on there is yes, 37 00:02:01,067 --> 00:02:05,147 Speaker 2: thinking differently, talking differently, and we all know people who 38 00:02:05,307 --> 00:02:08,147 Speaker 2: talk a very good tool and who think very deeply 39 00:02:08,187 --> 00:02:11,227 Speaker 2: about things. But it's the action, isn't it. Unless you 40 00:02:11,467 --> 00:02:15,267 Speaker 2: actually change what you do, nothing will change, will it? 41 00:02:16,507 --> 00:02:19,307 Speaker 3: Well, nothing changes if nothing changes. 42 00:02:19,307 --> 00:02:22,547 Speaker 4: There's a great line from our old coaching girl mind 43 00:02:22,747 --> 00:02:25,627 Speaker 4: and I think it's hard Ponty right. So a lot 44 00:02:25,627 --> 00:02:28,227 Speaker 4: of people will go things are not quite going away. 45 00:02:28,227 --> 00:02:28,907 Speaker 3: I like them to. 46 00:02:29,427 --> 00:02:32,707 Speaker 4: I'm looking for a solution and human beings being the 47 00:02:32,747 --> 00:02:34,707 Speaker 4: way we are. We want to see the solution, be 48 00:02:34,707 --> 00:02:36,947 Speaker 4: able to buy the solution, and we want it right 49 00:02:36,987 --> 00:02:38,907 Speaker 4: here and right now. It's a lot of people are 50 00:02:38,947 --> 00:02:41,507 Speaker 4: googled and go, you know what, I'm not kicking the 51 00:02:41,547 --> 00:02:42,507 Speaker 4: ball very well. 52 00:02:43,347 --> 00:02:44,507 Speaker 3: I need a new pair of boots. 53 00:02:44,627 --> 00:02:47,507 Speaker 4: And that's going to solve the problem because it's immediate, 54 00:02:47,787 --> 00:02:50,587 Speaker 4: it's quick, and I can actually see it and go, yep, 55 00:02:50,627 --> 00:02:54,947 Speaker 4: I filled in. But if the problem is you're kicking technique, 56 00:02:55,147 --> 00:02:59,027 Speaker 4: your leg strength, flexibility, you're what you're looking at, your 57 00:02:59,027 --> 00:03:01,827 Speaker 4: head position, your hips position, if it's those things, the 58 00:03:01,907 --> 00:03:03,867 Speaker 4: new boots don't make any. 59 00:03:03,667 --> 00:03:04,507 Speaker 3: Difference at all. 60 00:03:05,027 --> 00:03:07,627 Speaker 4: And I think it's it's it's critical people go, you 61 00:03:07,667 --> 00:03:10,787 Speaker 4: know what, I've got to have a hard, critical look 62 00:03:11,307 --> 00:03:15,067 Speaker 4: at what I'm doing and then open my heart note 63 00:03:15,147 --> 00:03:19,147 Speaker 4: and become what we call inquisitive party. I love it 64 00:03:19,187 --> 00:03:22,107 Speaker 4: when people go, you know what, I wonder what would 65 00:03:22,107 --> 00:03:25,307 Speaker 4: happen if I What would happen if I did this? 66 00:03:25,747 --> 00:03:29,787 Speaker 4: If I was to change that, Because inquisitiveness and that 67 00:03:29,907 --> 00:03:34,827 Speaker 4: natural curiosity that's at the start of all innovation change 68 00:03:35,107 --> 00:03:38,547 Speaker 4: is that capability to go, yeah, I wonder what would happen? Though, 69 00:03:38,827 --> 00:03:43,307 Speaker 4: even if you've been successful to start being really inquiring 70 00:03:43,347 --> 00:03:45,507 Speaker 4: and inquisitive about what you do. 71 00:03:45,587 --> 00:03:48,307 Speaker 3: That then opens the door defining solutions. 72 00:03:48,827 --> 00:03:51,907 Speaker 2: Can ask you what is probably a physiological question about 73 00:03:51,907 --> 00:03:55,947 Speaker 2: the human body, because often techniques, good or bad, are 74 00:03:55,987 --> 00:03:59,307 Speaker 2: built up over a long period of time, and muscle 75 00:03:59,387 --> 00:04:03,467 Speaker 2: memory is a big part of that. Can muscle memory 76 00:04:03,507 --> 00:04:07,227 Speaker 2: be changed if you've been using the same poor technique 77 00:04:07,747 --> 00:04:12,787 Speaker 2: or poor skirl for months, even years, is that something 78 00:04:12,827 --> 00:04:15,227 Speaker 2: that can be changed muscle memory? 79 00:04:15,547 --> 00:04:19,147 Speaker 4: Oh? What a great question, What a great question, because 80 00:04:19,467 --> 00:04:23,907 Speaker 4: you know what, over the years, I've become less believing 81 00:04:24,747 --> 00:04:28,187 Speaker 4: that there's a perfect technique. So there's no perfect passing 82 00:04:28,227 --> 00:04:31,707 Speaker 4: technique in rugby, or there's no perfect passing technique in nipple, 83 00:04:32,027 --> 00:04:35,187 Speaker 4: but there's the right technique for that individual. I mean, 84 00:04:35,227 --> 00:04:37,347 Speaker 4: we even say to players, don't we we're going to 85 00:04:37,347 --> 00:04:38,427 Speaker 4: improve your technique. 86 00:04:38,427 --> 00:04:41,067 Speaker 3: We're working on your kick, we're working on your past. 87 00:04:41,267 --> 00:04:46,827 Speaker 4: We use that terminology, and you know, sometimes they've developed 88 00:04:46,827 --> 00:04:49,507 Speaker 4: a technique which may look a bit ugly and may 89 00:04:49,547 --> 00:04:51,907 Speaker 4: look a little bit unconventional. 90 00:04:51,467 --> 00:04:52,747 Speaker 3: But it works for them. 91 00:04:53,067 --> 00:04:54,747 Speaker 4: And I think, first of all, if you're going to 92 00:04:54,827 --> 00:04:57,947 Speaker 4: change your technique, you've got to figure out why am 93 00:04:57,947 --> 00:05:00,227 Speaker 4: I changing it? And what am I going to change 94 00:05:00,227 --> 00:05:03,947 Speaker 4: it too, and then will it make me better? Now, 95 00:05:03,947 --> 00:05:05,987 Speaker 4: if you go through that process, what am I going 96 00:05:06,027 --> 00:05:08,667 Speaker 4: to change to? Why am I changing now? Is it 97 00:05:08,707 --> 00:05:10,867 Speaker 4: going to make me better? You're then going to have 98 00:05:10,947 --> 00:05:13,907 Speaker 4: to be prepared to put in some real yards because 99 00:05:14,147 --> 00:05:16,707 Speaker 4: you know, if you've been doing it over and over 100 00:05:16,987 --> 00:05:20,827 Speaker 4: and over, your body gets very, very efficient. It's saying, 101 00:05:20,827 --> 00:05:22,587 Speaker 4: all right, well, if you're going to pass that way, 102 00:05:23,227 --> 00:05:25,987 Speaker 4: I'm going to create some neural pathways. I'm going to 103 00:05:26,027 --> 00:05:29,587 Speaker 4: do some things with my neurophysiology to make it easier 104 00:05:29,707 --> 00:05:33,027 Speaker 4: for me to remember and execute that move. Then going 105 00:05:33,027 --> 00:05:35,947 Speaker 4: to your brain and your muscles in your muscular system 106 00:05:35,947 --> 00:05:38,307 Speaker 4: and saying, I want to change what you've already set 107 00:05:38,387 --> 00:05:40,467 Speaker 4: up to make it easier for me. I want to 108 00:05:40,467 --> 00:05:42,707 Speaker 4: do it a completely different way. You've got to do 109 00:05:42,747 --> 00:05:46,507 Speaker 4: what we call deliberate practice. You've got to go in 110 00:05:46,587 --> 00:05:51,547 Speaker 4: and say, right, I'm deliberately and purposely going to focus 111 00:05:51,627 --> 00:05:54,347 Speaker 4: on this element of my technique and reconstruct it. 112 00:05:54,827 --> 00:05:56,787 Speaker 3: And you can do it. But man, this is one 113 00:05:56,787 --> 00:05:59,187 Speaker 3: of these things that takes time. 114 00:05:59,267 --> 00:06:02,147 Speaker 4: You can't say I think my technique needs improving on 115 00:06:02,187 --> 00:06:04,667 Speaker 4: Tuesday and then by Wednesday it's going to be better. 116 00:06:04,707 --> 00:06:08,547 Speaker 4: It can take weeks or months, and particularly for a 117 00:06:08,667 --> 00:06:10,867 Speaker 4: senior athlete who might have been doing the same thing 118 00:06:11,307 --> 00:06:14,827 Speaker 4: the same way for ten years, it can take maybe 119 00:06:15,187 --> 00:06:18,227 Speaker 4: a full year to make an impact or to change 120 00:06:18,227 --> 00:06:20,707 Speaker 4: a technique. And we often hear that from golfers and 121 00:06:20,747 --> 00:06:23,547 Speaker 4: tennis players and cricketers who will talk about, Hey, I'm 122 00:06:23,587 --> 00:06:27,467 Speaker 4: working on my technique. I'm developing unnew technique and it 123 00:06:27,507 --> 00:06:30,187 Speaker 4: can take weeks, months or even a year or so 124 00:06:30,987 --> 00:06:35,107 Speaker 4: if the muscle memory and if it's really ingrained of 125 00:06:35,227 --> 00:06:37,547 Speaker 4: deliberate practice to make it change. 126 00:06:38,067 --> 00:06:41,907 Speaker 2: Just to expand on that point, when somebody has decided 127 00:06:41,907 --> 00:06:44,387 Speaker 2: they want to make a change, and they've started that 128 00:06:44,507 --> 00:06:47,947 Speaker 2: deliberate practice and they've worked hard at getting the change 129 00:06:47,987 --> 00:06:50,947 Speaker 2: in technique, how common is it wane in the heat 130 00:06:50,947 --> 00:06:53,747 Speaker 2: of the battle, when things aren't going well, to revert 131 00:06:53,827 --> 00:06:56,307 Speaker 2: back to what you used to do because you know 132 00:06:56,387 --> 00:06:56,867 Speaker 2: it better. 133 00:06:58,307 --> 00:06:58,707 Speaker 3: Ah. 134 00:06:58,747 --> 00:07:03,507 Speaker 4: This is what an interesting topic because I think it 135 00:07:03,547 --> 00:07:07,467 Speaker 4: goes back plenty to the way you train. You've got 136 00:07:07,547 --> 00:07:13,627 Speaker 4: to make your new technique resistant to fatigue and speed 137 00:07:13,707 --> 00:07:14,227 Speaker 4: and pressure. 138 00:07:14,267 --> 00:07:16,347 Speaker 3: So what I see a lot of coaches do is 139 00:07:16,387 --> 00:07:16,587 Speaker 3: they go. 140 00:07:16,667 --> 00:07:18,867 Speaker 4: Well, we want to change your technique if we do 141 00:07:18,907 --> 00:07:21,547 Speaker 4: it a thousand times, we do a five thousand times, 142 00:07:21,547 --> 00:07:22,707 Speaker 4: ten thousand times. 143 00:07:22,427 --> 00:07:23,027 Speaker 3: Whatever it is. 144 00:07:23,267 --> 00:07:25,827 Speaker 4: If we just keep doing the new technique, well you'll 145 00:07:25,907 --> 00:07:27,187 Speaker 4: learn it and it'll be okay. 146 00:07:27,667 --> 00:07:30,107 Speaker 3: Not necessarily, because as you point. 147 00:07:29,827 --> 00:07:34,747 Speaker 4: Out, can you train the athlete to change their technique 148 00:07:34,947 --> 00:07:39,267 Speaker 4: so that it withstands high speed, lots of emotional and 149 00:07:40,947 --> 00:07:43,987 Speaker 4: the mental pressure of a game. Can you teach the 150 00:07:43,987 --> 00:07:47,267 Speaker 4: technique to be fatigue resistant so that when it's under 151 00:07:47,267 --> 00:07:51,667 Speaker 4: pressure you don't just fall back into what your default 152 00:07:51,787 --> 00:07:54,107 Speaker 4: has been for such a long period of time. That 153 00:07:54,147 --> 00:07:56,707 Speaker 4: comes back to the way you structure training. So you've 154 00:07:56,707 --> 00:07:59,227 Speaker 4: got to learn the new technique, and then you've got 155 00:07:59,267 --> 00:08:03,627 Speaker 4: to put that technique under pressure in training to make 156 00:08:03,667 --> 00:08:08,187 Speaker 4: it fatigue resistant, pressure resistant resistant, and then you can 157 00:08:08,267 --> 00:08:11,747 Speaker 4: start to release it and try out in competition, which again, 158 00:08:11,907 --> 00:08:13,267 Speaker 4: you know, there's a lot of stuff, and I wish 159 00:08:13,347 --> 00:08:15,667 Speaker 4: I could just come up with a name, but you'll 160 00:08:15,667 --> 00:08:18,947 Speaker 4: often hear a cricketer or a tennis player, a golfer particularly, 161 00:08:18,987 --> 00:08:21,387 Speaker 4: go hey, look, I'm working on a new ball, or 162 00:08:21,427 --> 00:08:24,147 Speaker 4: I'm working on a new technique, or I'm working on 163 00:08:24,187 --> 00:08:28,067 Speaker 4: a new shot in training. They don't let it come out. 164 00:08:28,107 --> 00:08:30,787 Speaker 4: They don't release it into the game or into a 165 00:08:30,827 --> 00:08:36,227 Speaker 4: match until they know it's going to withstand competition pressures. 166 00:08:36,427 --> 00:08:38,747 Speaker 4: That's one of the best parts of coaching is that's 167 00:08:38,787 --> 00:08:40,987 Speaker 4: where the real creativity I think comes in coaching. 168 00:08:41,027 --> 00:08:43,707 Speaker 3: Bond is is changing the technique. 169 00:08:43,787 --> 00:08:46,667 Speaker 4: That's hard enough as it is, but changing it so 170 00:08:47,227 --> 00:08:51,827 Speaker 4: it overcomes that human desire to go back to your default. 171 00:08:51,867 --> 00:08:53,187 Speaker 3: That's the real art of what we do. 172 00:08:53,627 --> 00:08:56,667 Speaker 2: What about mindset, Wayne, We've talked about you changing the 173 00:08:56,707 --> 00:08:59,027 Speaker 2: way you swing a golf club or or bowling and 174 00:08:59,027 --> 00:09:02,427 Speaker 2: swinger or whatever it might be a physical act within sport. 175 00:09:02,547 --> 00:09:06,267 Speaker 2: Can you change your attitude? For example, of a coach 176 00:09:06,347 --> 00:09:12,307 Speaker 2: which is risk averse conservative, Can they change to become fearless, 177 00:09:12,747 --> 00:09:15,627 Speaker 2: happy to take risks. Is that change possible? 178 00:09:17,507 --> 00:09:20,947 Speaker 4: I think some of those changes are really ingrained. Some 179 00:09:20,987 --> 00:09:24,707 Speaker 4: of those changes are based on behaviors and values and 180 00:09:24,867 --> 00:09:28,467 Speaker 4: characteristics that they had in place way before they took 181 00:09:28,547 --> 00:09:31,827 Speaker 4: up coaching or way before they became an elite athlete. 182 00:09:32,067 --> 00:09:33,947 Speaker 3: That takes a lot of courage in itself. 183 00:09:33,987 --> 00:09:36,867 Speaker 4: Pint is to maybe meet with a psychologist, or meet 184 00:09:36,907 --> 00:09:40,267 Speaker 4: with a mentor coach, meet with a senior coach and 185 00:09:40,307 --> 00:09:43,427 Speaker 4: actually sit down and say what do you think I'm 186 00:09:43,427 --> 00:09:46,227 Speaker 4: doing that I can do better? How can I improve? 187 00:09:46,707 --> 00:09:49,467 Speaker 4: It starts maybe with a process of self reflection, And 188 00:09:49,547 --> 00:09:51,547 Speaker 4: I often say to coaches at the end of training, 189 00:09:51,947 --> 00:09:54,667 Speaker 4: sit there for five minutes and go did I coach 190 00:09:54,707 --> 00:09:57,707 Speaker 4: at my best today? Did I make a difference today? 191 00:09:58,027 --> 00:10:00,027 Speaker 4: What did I learn today that will make me a 192 00:10:00,067 --> 00:10:02,707 Speaker 4: better coach tomorrow? So I encourage coaches to be self 193 00:10:02,747 --> 00:10:05,667 Speaker 4: reflective of the way they do what they do anyway, 194 00:10:05,867 --> 00:10:09,627 Speaker 4: but take it's real courage to go to a mentor coach, 195 00:10:09,787 --> 00:10:12,547 Speaker 4: or to go to a sports psyche, or go to 196 00:10:12,707 --> 00:10:16,587 Speaker 4: a behavior specialist and say, listen, what do you think 197 00:10:16,667 --> 00:10:20,387 Speaker 4: I can do to improve where or are my weaknesses? 198 00:10:20,747 --> 00:10:21,507 Speaker 3: To put yourself? 199 00:10:21,507 --> 00:10:23,587 Speaker 4: If you are, you're almost subjecting yourself as a coach 200 00:10:23,667 --> 00:10:26,547 Speaker 4: to the same type of analysis and review that you 201 00:10:26,627 --> 00:10:27,747 Speaker 4: put an athlete. 202 00:10:27,707 --> 00:10:28,747 Speaker 3: For your team through. 203 00:10:29,387 --> 00:10:32,027 Speaker 4: And that can be tough, you know, because you know again, 204 00:10:32,387 --> 00:10:34,027 Speaker 4: I can say as a coach, I'm going to start 205 00:10:34,107 --> 00:10:34,747 Speaker 4: using AI. 206 00:10:35,027 --> 00:10:37,747 Speaker 3: Well that's not really a change, You're just using a 207 00:10:37,787 --> 00:10:38,427 Speaker 3: different tool. 208 00:10:39,147 --> 00:10:41,227 Speaker 4: Okay, Well, as a coach, I'm going to start doing 209 00:10:41,707 --> 00:10:44,747 Speaker 4: athletes or do free weights instead of machine weights. Well, again, 210 00:10:45,067 --> 00:10:49,547 Speaker 4: you're not really changing you're just changing tools to really change. 211 00:10:49,587 --> 00:10:51,747 Speaker 4: It could be as you say, it could be. I'm 212 00:10:51,787 --> 00:10:55,707 Speaker 4: comfortable taking risks. I want to go from coaching a 213 00:10:55,747 --> 00:11:01,027 Speaker 4: team to really connecting and engaging with individuals within the team. 214 00:11:01,347 --> 00:11:05,187 Speaker 4: I'm going to go from being sitting up in the 215 00:11:05,187 --> 00:11:06,987 Speaker 4: box and watching from this since I want to be 216 00:11:07,027 --> 00:11:09,947 Speaker 4: down there and coaching with my athletes so they know 217 00:11:10,107 --> 00:11:14,347 Speaker 4: that I'm there. They're big changes, and it takes a 218 00:11:14,347 --> 00:11:17,027 Speaker 4: lot more. You can't buy those. You could buy a 219 00:11:17,027 --> 00:11:19,187 Speaker 4: book that might send you on the right path, but 220 00:11:19,587 --> 00:11:23,867 Speaker 4: that requires really serious and honest reflection on things that 221 00:11:23,947 --> 00:11:26,747 Speaker 4: can be quite personal to you and your evolution as 222 00:11:26,787 --> 00:11:27,147 Speaker 4: a human. 223 00:11:27,867 --> 00:11:29,467 Speaker 2: Can I just ask you if we can zoom out 224 00:11:29,547 --> 00:11:33,707 Speaker 2: now beyond individuals to a sporting organization, a club, a 225 00:11:33,787 --> 00:11:37,507 Speaker 2: coaching program, and let's just say, hypothetically you it was 226 00:11:37,547 --> 00:11:41,707 Speaker 2: your job to go in there and enact change. I mean, 227 00:11:41,747 --> 00:11:44,827 Speaker 2: it's such a big gnally thing, isn't it. We're going 228 00:11:44,867 --> 00:11:47,267 Speaker 2: to change things here? Where do you start? 229 00:11:47,307 --> 00:11:47,427 Speaker 3: Way? 230 00:11:47,467 --> 00:11:49,907 Speaker 2: And if that was you, where would you start if 231 00:11:49,947 --> 00:11:53,627 Speaker 2: you were looking to make positive change at a sporting organization? 232 00:11:55,307 --> 00:11:58,987 Speaker 4: Well, fortunately or unfortunately, that is pretty much my job. 233 00:11:59,027 --> 00:12:00,347 Speaker 3: That's my consulting gig is. 234 00:12:00,547 --> 00:12:02,707 Speaker 2: That's why I asked That's why I asked the question. 235 00:12:02,827 --> 00:12:04,987 Speaker 2: I thought you'd have the answer more answers. 236 00:12:06,147 --> 00:12:09,747 Speaker 4: Well, the first step, as always is I like to 237 00:12:09,787 --> 00:12:14,187 Speaker 4: go in piny and hang out like I'm jack nobody. 238 00:12:14,507 --> 00:12:15,267 Speaker 3: I just hang out. 239 00:12:15,387 --> 00:12:18,947 Speaker 4: I don't I say to the managers, to the board, 240 00:12:19,027 --> 00:12:21,227 Speaker 4: to the execus, whoever I'm working with, I say, look, 241 00:12:21,347 --> 00:12:23,227 Speaker 4: don't make a big girl. I'm just going to float 242 00:12:23,267 --> 00:12:25,667 Speaker 4: around and I'm just going to be here for a 243 00:12:25,747 --> 00:12:29,307 Speaker 4: few days. And so quite often they'll just say, guys, 244 00:12:29,307 --> 00:12:32,427 Speaker 4: we've got someone visiting us this week. Wayne Goldsmith has 245 00:12:32,467 --> 00:12:35,667 Speaker 4: been tied up in Sport for a while. Welcome Wayne. 246 00:12:35,707 --> 00:12:37,907 Speaker 4: And I just I get him to really underplay it. 247 00:12:38,307 --> 00:12:40,227 Speaker 4: And I hang out and I just talk to people. 248 00:12:40,267 --> 00:12:43,467 Speaker 4: I have coffee and I talk and listen and I observe, 249 00:12:44,067 --> 00:12:47,547 Speaker 4: and I try to figure out who is the organization? 250 00:12:47,867 --> 00:12:50,827 Speaker 4: And I use that language deliberately, not what is the organization? 251 00:12:52,227 --> 00:12:55,067 Speaker 4: Where is your But I go who is this place? 252 00:12:55,107 --> 00:12:58,787 Speaker 4: Who's actually living a culture that I can see and 253 00:12:58,867 --> 00:13:02,427 Speaker 4: I can recognize. So the first step is understanding who 254 00:13:02,507 --> 00:13:05,427 Speaker 4: they really are and what that's about, and. 255 00:13:05,427 --> 00:13:06,587 Speaker 3: What is the culture? 256 00:13:06,747 --> 00:13:08,667 Speaker 4: Quite because you know you and I have talked about 257 00:13:08,667 --> 00:13:12,107 Speaker 4: culture many times over the years. Culture is really simple 258 00:13:12,267 --> 00:13:16,307 Speaker 4: in the context of a sporting organization. Culture is what 259 00:13:16,387 --> 00:13:20,147 Speaker 4: you do, and what you do is observable. So I 260 00:13:20,227 --> 00:13:23,627 Speaker 4: can be in there and I'll just sometimes, pinty, I'll 261 00:13:23,667 --> 00:13:26,387 Speaker 4: just I'll sit and hang out in the reception area 262 00:13:26,507 --> 00:13:29,187 Speaker 4: of the club reading a paper, and I listen to 263 00:13:29,227 --> 00:13:33,307 Speaker 4: the way the receptionists and the frontline staff, the office staff, 264 00:13:33,947 --> 00:13:37,227 Speaker 4: greet people, and how they redirect people through the organization. 265 00:13:37,347 --> 00:13:39,347 Speaker 4: How do they talk to each other, because they're the 266 00:13:39,387 --> 00:13:42,787 Speaker 4: frontline face of the whole organization. Then I might go 267 00:13:42,867 --> 00:13:44,907 Speaker 4: and sit in some coaching meetings. Then I'm not going 268 00:13:44,947 --> 00:13:47,467 Speaker 4: to have some coffee with players. Then I might hover 269 00:13:47,547 --> 00:13:51,107 Speaker 4: around the training environment and in the gym and in 270 00:13:51,147 --> 00:13:52,307 Speaker 4: a not creepy way. 271 00:13:53,907 --> 00:13:58,027 Speaker 3: But because what they do screams at you. 272 00:13:58,427 --> 00:14:00,747 Speaker 4: If you're in an organization, they can say, you know, 273 00:14:00,787 --> 00:14:04,987 Speaker 4: we're about integrity and honesty and respect. But you spend 274 00:14:05,027 --> 00:14:06,547 Speaker 4: a few days there and go, yeah, but what do 275 00:14:06,587 --> 00:14:09,827 Speaker 4: they actually do? What am I feeling? What am I seeing? 276 00:14:10,187 --> 00:14:12,827 Speaker 4: And then I usually meet with the decision makers and say, guys, 277 00:14:13,067 --> 00:14:15,947 Speaker 4: this is what it looks like. This is the behaviors 278 00:14:15,987 --> 00:14:20,107 Speaker 4: that I am seeing that then is telling me everything 279 00:14:20,147 --> 00:14:22,867 Speaker 4: I need to know about your culture. That's usually the 280 00:14:22,867 --> 00:14:26,387 Speaker 4: first step has been very clear. Now, if you haven't 281 00:14:26,387 --> 00:14:29,267 Speaker 4: got one hundred and seventy five years of experience that 282 00:14:29,347 --> 00:14:33,187 Speaker 4: I've managed to pull out, that feels like that some days. 283 00:14:33,387 --> 00:14:36,747 Speaker 4: What I say to all clubs is you can do 284 00:14:36,787 --> 00:14:40,347 Speaker 4: a very similar thing is if you're a let's say 285 00:14:40,387 --> 00:14:44,147 Speaker 4: you're the manager or a junior rugby club, instead of sitting 286 00:14:44,187 --> 00:14:47,627 Speaker 4: and hanging out with the rest of the committee on 287 00:14:47,707 --> 00:14:50,387 Speaker 4: game days, just go around and talk to parents, sit 288 00:14:50,507 --> 00:14:53,747 Speaker 4: next to players, go and talk to referees. Just be 289 00:14:53,947 --> 00:14:57,747 Speaker 4: really in touch with what people are actually doing, not 290 00:14:57,907 --> 00:15:00,187 Speaker 4: what you think they're doing. So I find a lot 291 00:15:00,187 --> 00:15:02,707 Speaker 4: of places I go pining or say, oh, we're doing 292 00:15:02,747 --> 00:15:05,387 Speaker 4: all that stuff Lane because he is our strategic plan 293 00:15:05,987 --> 00:15:07,627 Speaker 4: we do and all that stuff way and because we've 294 00:15:07,667 --> 00:15:09,027 Speaker 4: got our values written. 295 00:15:08,707 --> 00:15:11,147 Speaker 3: On the wall and we're already doing that stuff. 296 00:15:11,187 --> 00:15:13,827 Speaker 4: And then I said, have you actually gone out and looked, 297 00:15:14,107 --> 00:15:18,067 Speaker 4: Have you actually spent time with the people who on 298 00:15:18,107 --> 00:15:21,667 Speaker 4: the ground are delivering the experience of your club to 299 00:15:21,827 --> 00:15:22,787 Speaker 4: everyone else day to day? 300 00:15:22,907 --> 00:15:24,987 Speaker 3: You probably won't see those behaviors. 301 00:15:25,547 --> 00:15:28,227 Speaker 4: And if I'm not seeing it and they're not living 302 00:15:28,267 --> 00:15:31,267 Speaker 4: the behaviors of the organization. Well, nothing's going to change. 303 00:15:31,267 --> 00:15:34,947 Speaker 4: Their culture isn't what it should be. Once we've got 304 00:15:34,987 --> 00:15:38,987 Speaker 4: that stage and we truly understand what it is, then 305 00:15:39,067 --> 00:15:42,067 Speaker 4: you can make some steps towards changing it to what 306 00:15:42,107 --> 00:15:42,587 Speaker 4: it should be. 307 00:15:42,707 --> 00:15:43,707 Speaker 3: But there's a. 308 00:15:43,587 --> 00:15:49,507 Speaker 4: Great line by former President Obama where he said, and 309 00:15:49,547 --> 00:15:51,747 Speaker 4: other people have said it, but it's attributed to him, 310 00:15:51,787 --> 00:15:56,827 Speaker 4: which is all meaningful. Change starts at grassroots and up. 311 00:15:57,227 --> 00:16:00,267 Speaker 4: And I'm a big believer that a lot of organizations 312 00:16:00,267 --> 00:16:03,147 Speaker 4: will try to get change or renewal by writing a 313 00:16:03,147 --> 00:16:07,067 Speaker 4: great strategic plan. That's raally the thing that actually works. 314 00:16:07,147 --> 00:16:10,707 Speaker 4: The thing that really works is getting a groundswell of 315 00:16:10,947 --> 00:16:16,747 Speaker 4: energy and passion and focus and movement from the people 316 00:16:16,907 --> 00:16:20,427 Speaker 4: already delivering it and helping them lift and picking them 317 00:16:20,507 --> 00:16:23,707 Speaker 4: up and trying to change things from the bottom up. 318 00:16:24,027 --> 00:16:27,027 Speaker 4: To me, works way way better than try to enforce 319 00:16:27,147 --> 00:16:28,227 Speaker 4: change from the top down. 320 00:16:29,187 --> 00:16:34,027 Speaker 2: Last question, they say, and you've heard this cliche many times, 321 00:16:34,027 --> 00:16:36,787 Speaker 2: I'm sure if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Is 322 00:16:36,827 --> 00:16:38,907 Speaker 2: it ever the right thing not to change? 323 00:16:40,707 --> 00:16:40,867 Speaker 3: You know? 324 00:16:40,947 --> 00:16:44,707 Speaker 4: Look, I think change for Chaine's sake is not always smart, 325 00:16:45,387 --> 00:16:48,667 Speaker 4: But The trick pointy is knowing what the change and 326 00:16:48,707 --> 00:16:52,387 Speaker 4: what a knowing what not the change. So, for example, 327 00:16:52,467 --> 00:16:58,307 Speaker 4: who you are, so you're every club, every region, every 328 00:16:58,747 --> 00:17:01,107 Speaker 4: every team has got its own identity. 329 00:17:01,147 --> 00:17:03,827 Speaker 3: If you like that, you know and you can describe it. 330 00:17:03,867 --> 00:17:05,707 Speaker 4: I often think, you know, when I've been around different 331 00:17:05,707 --> 00:17:10,387 Speaker 4: provinces and regions in New Zealand, that even though you're 332 00:17:10,427 --> 00:17:14,867 Speaker 4: all Kiwis, it's really different in say Southland to what 333 00:17:14,947 --> 00:17:18,587 Speaker 4: it is in Auckland. It's really different in Taranakia the 334 00:17:18,587 --> 00:17:19,427 Speaker 4: way it is in Gissy. 335 00:17:20,587 --> 00:17:21,907 Speaker 3: Even though you're all Kiwi's and. 336 00:17:21,907 --> 00:17:27,827 Speaker 4: You're passionate about being Kiwi's, There's differences in terms of geography, 337 00:17:28,747 --> 00:17:31,867 Speaker 4: differences in culture, a little bit in food, a little 338 00:17:31,867 --> 00:17:34,907 Speaker 4: bit of environment, and that's all reflected in the way 339 00:17:34,947 --> 00:17:39,347 Speaker 4: you play football or soccer or swimming. Where you are 340 00:17:39,627 --> 00:17:42,427 Speaker 4: and what you do in your environment is all reflected 341 00:17:43,067 --> 00:17:47,187 Speaker 4: in who you are as a human being. And those 342 00:17:47,227 --> 00:17:50,387 Speaker 4: things are permanent. You know, if you're born and raised 343 00:17:50,427 --> 00:17:53,307 Speaker 4: and always lived in the Canterbury Plains, chances are the 344 00:17:53,427 --> 00:17:57,147 Speaker 4: characteristics and qualities of living, working and playing in the 345 00:17:57,187 --> 00:18:00,067 Speaker 4: Canterbury Plans that will always define the way you play. 346 00:18:00,267 --> 00:18:03,267 Speaker 4: You don't want to change that, because that's the essence 347 00:18:03,267 --> 00:18:06,667 Speaker 4: of who you are. But you can change things like 348 00:18:07,067 --> 00:18:09,827 Speaker 4: can we get stronger through different weight training, Can we 349 00:18:09,867 --> 00:18:12,427 Speaker 4: eat different foods that are going to make us healthy 350 00:18:12,467 --> 00:18:16,627 Speaker 4: and more nutritious. Can we improve our sleep? Can we 351 00:18:16,787 --> 00:18:20,347 Speaker 4: change our tactics? All those things are more or less superficial, 352 00:18:20,667 --> 00:18:22,867 Speaker 4: and I find that the teams and the clubs who 353 00:18:22,907 --> 00:18:27,027 Speaker 4: do well stay true to the really important things that 354 00:18:27,147 --> 00:18:30,427 Speaker 4: define who they are, and they change the superficial things 355 00:18:30,467 --> 00:18:32,387 Speaker 4: that just give them a little bit of an edge 356 00:18:33,907 --> 00:18:36,507 Speaker 4: in some areas, in some of those performance areas. But 357 00:18:37,027 --> 00:18:40,267 Speaker 4: understanding who you are and living that, that's at the 358 00:18:40,307 --> 00:18:43,107 Speaker 4: absolute heart of all success stories that I see. 359 00:18:43,547 --> 00:18:46,627 Speaker 2: Wayne. As always, it's been an education listening to your 360 00:18:46,707 --> 00:18:50,547 Speaker 2: instantly usable and very valuable advice. Happy estimate and thanks 361 00:18:50,907 --> 00:18:52,947 Speaker 2: as always for your time across New Zealand and ZB 362 00:18:54,067 --> 00:18:54,587 Speaker 2: mate dose. 363 00:18:54,707 --> 00:18:56,787 Speaker 4: Remember there is no such thing as eating too many 364 00:18:56,827 --> 00:18:57,707 Speaker 4: chocolate easteries. 365 00:18:59,227 --> 00:19:01,067 Speaker 2: I'm not sure that's true in my case, Waine, I'm 366 00:19:01,067 --> 00:19:04,707 Speaker 2: sure it isn't yours. Thanks indeed, Wayne Goldsmith Coaching Guru 367 00:19:04,707 --> 00:19:09,547 Speaker 2: WG coaching dot com. Incidentally, it says website wgcoaching dot 368 00:19:09,587 --> 00:19:13,747 Speaker 2: com for from a whole bunch of really call advice 369 00:19:13,787 --> 00:19:16,747 Speaker 2: from Wayne Goldsmith, one of our regulars here on Weekend 370 00:19:16,827 --> 00:19:18,147 Speaker 2: Sport on News Talk SEDB. 371 00:19:18,747 --> 00:19:21,907 Speaker 1: For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live 372 00:19:22,027 --> 00:19:25,427 Speaker 1: to News Talk SEDB weekends from midday, or follow the 373 00:19:25,467 --> 00:19:26,907 Speaker 1: podcast on iHeartRadio