WEBVTT - Politics Central: Is peace in Ukraine possible? 0:00:05.761 --> 0:00:09.881 You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks EDB. 0:00:10.241 --> 0:00:12.521 And a very good afternoon to you. I'm Tim Beverage. 0:00:12.521 --> 0:00:16.401 Welcome to today's Weekend Collective this Sunday, the sixteenth of June. 0:00:16.921 --> 0:00:18.521 We'll be taking by the way, you can text your 0:00:18.561 --> 0:00:20.761 feedback anytime on nine to two nine to and of 0:00:20.801 --> 0:00:22.561 course later on we'll be taking a course just looking 0:00:22.601 --> 0:00:27.001 at what's happening today. Shortly Politics Central, I'll be speaking 0:00:27.001 --> 0:00:31.521 with the Taga University International Relations professor Robert Patman on 0:00:31.561 --> 0:00:34.281 whether actually peace in Ukraine as possible as world leaders 0:00:34.281 --> 0:00:37.121 gather in Switzerland to try and build support for the 0:00:37.121 --> 0:00:40.521 peace proposals for Ukraine and actually where the Putin's peace offering, 0:00:41.001 --> 0:00:43.281 no matter how unrealistic, it gives us course for hope. 0:00:43.561 --> 0:00:44.841 And then we're going to be catching up with a 0:00:44.921 --> 0:00:48.961 Minister for Workplace Relationship relations should I say and Safety 0:00:49.001 --> 0:00:51.801 Brook van Velden on the government's announcement of a road 0:00:51.841 --> 0:00:56.881 show consultation on work health and safety and don't forget 0:00:56.881 --> 0:00:59.161 to stick around for four o'clock the Health app. We're 0:00:59.201 --> 0:01:02.441 joined by psychotherapist Carle MacDonald. We're going to have a 0:01:02.521 --> 0:01:07.001 chat about adult ADHD and newer divergence in coping with that. 0:01:07.001 --> 0:01:09.721 Will be taking your calls after four on eight hundred 0:01:09.721 --> 0:01:12.081 and eighty ten to eighty and at five o'clock Smart 0:01:12.121 --> 0:01:15.321 Money with Chris de Lever from Harbor Asset Management, among 0:01:15.361 --> 0:01:17.321 other things. If you've ever wondered about how to invest 0:01:17.321 --> 0:01:19.601 in the bond market, Chris is going to give us 0:01:19.601 --> 0:01:22.201 the one oh one to starting with what is a 0:01:22.201 --> 0:01:25.121 bond actually, which for many people is probably something of 0:01:25.121 --> 0:01:30.121 a mystery. Anyway, right now it is eight minutes past 0:01:30.161 --> 0:01:33.761 three Politics Central. Oh, by the way, just before we 0:01:33.801 --> 0:01:36.401 get into Politics Central. So the Prime minister's winging his 0:01:36.481 --> 0:01:39.441 way to Tokyo as we speak on the Defense Force 0:01:39.481 --> 0:01:41.601 seventy five second, and he's hoping his trip to Japan 0:01:41.641 --> 0:01:44.321 will bring more investment opportunities to New Zealand. And I've 0:01:44.321 --> 0:01:46.241 been meeting with the Japanese Prime Minister at the end 0:01:46.241 --> 0:01:48.921 of the week. Gosh, he's getting around, isn't he. The 0:01:48.921 --> 0:01:50.281 Blues and the Chiefs are going to be playing the 0:01:50.321 --> 0:01:54.041 Super Final next Saturday. I had an interesting conversation with 0:01:54.281 --> 0:01:59.841 a colleague of mine around the Warriors who described, basically 0:01:59.841 --> 0:02:02.441 said the first forty minutes of the Warriors in Campsy later, 0:02:02.561 --> 0:02:06.041 the last twenty nine minutes of the Warriors. According to 0:02:06.081 --> 0:02:07.641 a source of mine, who is also an expert in 0:02:07.681 --> 0:02:11.321 Karagate chicken, but he said if the game had finished 0:02:11.321 --> 0:02:13.961 at the fifteen or twenty minute mark, that would have 0:02:14.001 --> 0:02:16.721 been great. Anyway, They've got their decade long losing streak 0:02:16.721 --> 0:02:19.201 against Melbourne. And I got that one wrong because I 0:02:19.281 --> 0:02:23.041 sometimes think the Warrior's specialty is, you know, when everyone's 0:02:23.041 --> 0:02:24.401 sort of thinking, oh, there's no way they're going to 0:02:24.441 --> 0:02:25.961 beat the Panthers, or there's no way they're going to 0:02:26.081 --> 0:02:28.441 reverse that, you know, that losing streak against the storm, 0:02:28.481 --> 0:02:30.721 it's the time when they surprise and delight us. But 0:02:30.841 --> 0:02:36.281 unfortunately not this time anyway. Right, So, world leaders have 0:02:36.441 --> 0:02:39.601 gathered at a Swiss mountain resort to try to build 0:02:39.641 --> 0:02:45.521 support for Ukraine's peace proposal. Mark Mark Mitchell. That is 0:02:45.561 --> 0:02:48.081 going to be representing New Zealand. By the way, I 0:02:48.481 --> 0:02:52.161 just went on and googled It's Bergenstock. Is the bergenstock 0:02:52.281 --> 0:02:56.641 on the shores of Lake Lucerne. Oh wow, you'd have 0:02:56.721 --> 0:02:58.521 to save up a little bit to stay there. But 0:02:58.561 --> 0:03:01.841 of course Switzerland itself is incredibly expensive. But what a 0:03:02.121 --> 0:03:04.961 gorgeous spot. We're not going to be talking about the scene. 0:03:05.641 --> 0:03:08.201 But more than ninety countries are taking part in the 0:03:08.201 --> 0:03:12.241 summit on Peace in Ukraine. Russia was not invited and 0:03:12.681 --> 0:03:15.601 China its most important al I think this is a 0:03:15.601 --> 0:03:18.881 shame they refused to attend and to discuss that, I'm 0:03:18.961 --> 0:03:22.961 joined by international relations professor at o Tigo University and 0:03:23.041 --> 0:03:27.641 his name is Robert Patman, Robert Good Afternoons noon tom So. 0:03:27.761 --> 0:03:31.841 Russia has set out at ceasefire terms which have been 0:03:31.881 --> 0:03:34.881 rejected by most European leaders. What did you make of 0:03:35.401 --> 0:03:37.121 the offer of the ceasefire. 0:03:38.521 --> 0:03:43.001 Well, it's a non author because the so called peace 0:03:43.041 --> 0:03:50.121 initiative consists of mister Booting consolidating two regions donetskon Hansk, 0:03:50.161 --> 0:03:53.401 which he has under occupation, and two other regions which 0:03:53.401 --> 0:03:57.441 are not fully under his occupation, which are cursed and SUPPORTIA. 0:03:58.921 --> 0:04:01.641 So what he's saying, in effect is that he wants 0:04:01.681 --> 0:04:05.361 his invasion to be internationally recognized and the means of 0:04:05.441 --> 0:04:10.681 that illegal invasion to be recognized international. In return, he 0:04:10.761 --> 0:04:16.081 will agree there should be no more fighting. So he's 0:04:16.121 --> 0:04:19.601 looking at basically peeling off about twenty percent of Ukraine, 0:04:19.721 --> 0:04:24.401 and in addition, Ukraine would have to give a solemn 0:04:24.481 --> 0:04:27.401 undertake in never to join NATO, which means that he's 0:04:27.441 --> 0:04:32.801 actually vetoing the sovereign choices of a neighboring country. So 0:04:34.481 --> 0:04:37.921 to me, it's not a serious thing at all because 0:04:37.921 --> 0:04:42.001 it's completely inconsistent with the UN Charter, with international law. 0:04:42.761 --> 0:04:43.841 Why do you think he did. 0:04:43.681 --> 0:04:50.561 It, Well, there's several reasons. Firstly, it's not hitting the headlines, 0:04:50.601 --> 0:04:54.241 but the Russian armed forces are now beginning to take 0:04:54.241 --> 0:04:58.561 a bit of a battering in Crimea and air defense 0:04:58.961 --> 0:05:02.001 in a EU Crimea has become problematic. So he needs 0:05:02.361 --> 0:05:04.481 also responding to the fact that Russia has taken a 0:05:04.561 --> 0:05:07.681 huge casual is in Ukraine, and so he may be 0:05:07.761 --> 0:05:10.881 feeling a little bit of domestic heat there and he 0:05:11.361 --> 0:05:15.681 wants to I think he's not involved in the Ukraine 0:05:15.841 --> 0:05:19.921 peace conference in Switzerland, so he wanted to get the 0:05:19.921 --> 0:05:22.321 world's attention that he wants to play the reasonable guy, 0:05:23.241 --> 0:05:28.721 the invader who's been misunderstood essentially. So yeah, I think 0:05:28.721 --> 0:05:31.561 those those motivations are there. He wants to take a 0:05:31.601 --> 0:05:36.801 bit of play away from the peace conference in Switzerland, 0:05:36.841 --> 0:05:40.921 and he's also concerned, I think about the battlefield situation. 0:05:41.801 --> 0:05:44.721 Okay, just the fact of the offering itself, even though 0:05:44.761 --> 0:05:48.281 obviously there's a lot of cynicism behind it, we suspect 0:05:48.841 --> 0:05:51.801 does it give any cause for optimism that we can 0:05:51.841 --> 0:05:54.241 read into the fact that, well, he's at least raised it. 0:05:54.321 --> 0:05:57.801 Does it give us, Does it give Europe and Ukraine 0:05:57.961 --> 0:06:01.441 something to work with or is it simply just a 0:06:01.481 --> 0:06:03.521 distraction and a piece of cynical politics. 0:06:04.321 --> 0:06:07.921 Well, I think a distraction and the cynical partic because 0:06:08.321 --> 0:06:10.401 it's not based on a rules based order for a 0:06:10.401 --> 0:06:13.841 country like New Zealand, we have to operate international on 0:06:13.841 --> 0:06:16.241 the basis of rules and principles. And you can't have 0:06:16.321 --> 0:06:20.321 a country effectively engage in a land grab and said, oh, 0:06:20.361 --> 0:06:23.721 we're we're happy, we're twenty percent of what we've grabbed. 0:06:23.961 --> 0:06:25.761 We did try to grab the whole country, but we 0:06:25.801 --> 0:06:30.561 didn't manage to do it. And is the international community 0:06:30.561 --> 0:06:33.081 going to recognize such behavior because it doesn't stop there? 0:06:33.161 --> 0:06:37.001 Ef that's a precedent, and I think that's you know, 0:06:37.281 --> 0:06:40.401 it's not it's certainly not in New Zeine's interests to 0:06:40.441 --> 0:06:43.401 say that's fine. So this is an attempt for a 0:06:43.481 --> 0:06:45.801 land for peace deal. But you know what, happens in 0:06:45.921 --> 0:06:48.801 six What happens in six months time if he decides 0:06:49.001 --> 0:06:52.481 those regions that he said he would accept in return 0:06:52.521 --> 0:06:54.161 for peace, he decides he needs a bit more. 0:06:54.441 --> 0:06:56.841 So it's not even a starting point for any. 0:06:56.601 --> 0:06:58.921 Sort of not serious at all. I mean, let's be 0:06:59.001 --> 0:07:02.441 quite clear, good this mister Plutin can stop this conflict 0:07:02.441 --> 0:07:05.561 with in twenty four hours by withdrawing Russiam falls to 0:07:05.641 --> 0:07:07.721 the internationally recognized borders of Russia. 0:07:08.201 --> 0:07:11.041 Well exactly what pretty much what Zelensky has said. What 0:07:11.121 --> 0:07:15.161 about Europe using the money from frozen seized assets? Is 0:07:16.401 --> 0:07:19.721 this part of making support for Ukraine Trump proof? 0:07:21.641 --> 0:07:26.281 I think it's an attempt to do that. And also 0:07:26.441 --> 0:07:30.961 in addition, of course NATO are taking a similar measure, 0:07:31.041 --> 0:07:33.801 because they've made with the exception of Hungary, which tends 0:07:33.801 --> 0:07:37.721 to be pro putin, all the other members of NATO 0:07:37.881 --> 0:07:43.601 are in agreeing to make a contribution to Ukraine's defense mandatory. 0:07:43.641 --> 0:07:47.081 We also know that a number of European countries are 0:07:47.241 --> 0:07:52.601 sending trainers to Ukraine's territory to train the Ukrainian army. 0:07:52.841 --> 0:07:55.641 So I think that there's a recognition that mister Trump 0:07:55.681 --> 0:07:59.521 may win the election. They have to protect their statestrategic 0:07:59.641 --> 0:08:02.561 interest because mister Trump's made it quite clear he will 0:08:02.561 --> 0:08:06.881 not be supporting the attempt of ukraining to eject the 0:08:07.321 --> 0:08:09.081 invasion force on his territory. 0:08:10.001 --> 0:08:12.481 How much has actually been seized with those assets? I mean, 0:08:12.561 --> 0:08:14.241 do you know how do you know how this is 0:08:14.241 --> 0:08:18.441 going to work? Because who controls those seas? 0:08:19.401 --> 0:08:19.641 Yeah? 0:08:19.721 --> 0:08:24.801 I mean it's a bit problematic because while assets are 0:08:24.841 --> 0:08:29.081 frozen I think more than three hundred pion My understanding 0:08:29.161 --> 0:08:32.081 is they're using the interest from those frozen assets. I 0:08:32.161 --> 0:08:37.681 think the reasoning is that, you know, Russia has broken 0:08:37.721 --> 0:08:40.481 international law and therefore it's not entitled to the same 0:08:40.521 --> 0:08:44.801 perfections that everyone else has who's complying with international law. 0:08:45.201 --> 0:08:48.201 But it's still I think many international lawyers are quite 0:08:50.721 --> 0:08:53.361 or uncomfortable about what's happening, because you know, he could 0:08:53.361 --> 0:08:54.481 set a precedent as well. 0:08:54.561 --> 0:08:54.641 Well. 0:08:54.681 --> 0:08:56.321 I guess the thing is it's sort of like a 0:08:56.361 --> 0:08:58.801 halfway house. They haven't actually taken the assets. Is they're 0:08:58.801 --> 0:09:00.721 just going to use the benefits, aren't they? So it's 0:09:00.721 --> 0:09:02.841 a sort of is it a compromise to ye? 0:09:03.521 --> 0:09:07.041 When you look at the damage literally hundreds of billions 0:09:07.041 --> 0:09:11.721 of dollars of damage to infrastructure of Ukraine in an 0:09:11.801 --> 0:09:16.081 unprovoked war. You can understand why there is a lot 0:09:16.081 --> 0:09:20.241 of feeling, not least in Ukraine, but they desperately need 0:09:20.281 --> 0:09:23.481 an infusion of funds and why not use this money? 0:09:23.521 --> 0:09:26.921 But as I say, the proof of that, you know, 0:09:27.081 --> 0:09:28.761 the proof of the pudding is going to be eating. 0:09:28.961 --> 0:09:30.001 How's this going to work out? 0:09:30.201 --> 0:09:32.081 It is an interesting one. They're talking about precedents, but 0:09:32.121 --> 0:09:34.561 of course we've had reparations before for wars and stuff, 0:09:34.601 --> 0:09:37.041 isn't it. So I'm not sure why they're Well, I 0:09:37.041 --> 0:09:39.001 can understand why they're nervous about it. Lawers are always 0:09:39.001 --> 0:09:40.961 nervous about everything, aren't they. But what would you think 0:09:41.001 --> 0:09:42.841 if they actually said stuff that we're going to seize 0:09:42.841 --> 0:09:46.001 the assets and we're going to apply all this for Ukraine. 0:09:47.001 --> 0:09:49.801 I think it's a huge injustice if Russia doesn't make 0:09:49.881 --> 0:09:53.641 any contribution towards the damage that it's caused in a 0:09:53.641 --> 0:09:57.361 neighboring country. I mean, we are to initially look at Mariopol, 0:09:57.521 --> 0:10:00.601 a beautiful city which was just absolutely just reduced to 0:10:00.641 --> 0:10:06.641 rubble and all because of at all ambitions of the 0:10:06.681 --> 0:10:10.801 Putin regime, and you have to say, you know that 0:10:11.441 --> 0:10:15.441 there has to be some means of rebuilding Ukraine when 0:10:15.881 --> 0:10:18.801 foreign forces are eventually ejected from that country. 0:10:20.161 --> 0:10:23.721 Now onto the just on the Olympics, the Italian Prime 0:10:23.761 --> 0:10:27.961 Minister Georgia Maloney says the G seven unanimously backed a 0:10:28.041 --> 0:10:34.281 French proposal to request a global truce during the Olympic Games. Okay, 0:10:34.881 --> 0:10:36.361 what chance of success of that. 0:10:37.761 --> 0:10:42.801 Global troops in relation to Ukraine during the Olympics. Well, 0:10:42.921 --> 0:10:47.721 I don't think obviously that would depend on the two 0:10:47.721 --> 0:10:51.641 conflicting parties. I don't know what Misternsky said about that. 0:10:53.521 --> 0:10:58.121 It's interesting though that the Ukraine Initiative, the conference in 0:10:58.241 --> 0:11:04.161 Ukraine which you began with the introduction to mister Sensky 0:11:04.521 --> 0:11:08.561 presence of is actually trying to begin the process of 0:11:08.561 --> 0:11:12.041 getting a comprehensive peace plan in place. So it's just 0:11:12.041 --> 0:11:14.761 the beginning of a long process, but it's quite a 0:11:14.801 --> 0:11:20.241 significant step and shows I think, you know, mister Putin 0:11:20.321 --> 0:11:20.841 is very. 0:11:20.641 --> 0:11:24.401 Concerned about this. What what is what is uh Selensky 0:11:24.481 --> 0:11:25.121 hoping to do? 0:11:25.441 --> 0:11:25.641 Well? 0:11:25.721 --> 0:11:28.241 Is this? This conference is being attended by more than 0:11:28.281 --> 0:11:32.081 one hundred countries and organizations. Actually, and yeah. 0:11:32.001 --> 0:11:34.721 Sorry, you know, you're right, because actually I realized that 0:11:34.761 --> 0:11:37.561 I let one of my earlier questions get deflicted by Putin, 0:11:37.961 --> 0:11:40.201 and actually the whole question is yeah, so let's let's 0:11:40.241 --> 0:11:42.121 just let's just flesh that out a little bit more 0:11:42.121 --> 0:11:44.081 before you before we wrap it up as what are 0:11:44.121 --> 0:11:47.321 they hoping to achieve from the summit they're having in Switzerland. 0:11:47.601 --> 0:11:51.881 Well, hoping to come up with an internationally supported plan 0:11:52.001 --> 0:11:55.121 to bring peace to Ukraine which is consistent with international 0:11:55.201 --> 0:11:59.081 law and the Union Charter, and amongst other things. The 0:11:59.161 --> 0:12:02.721 plan that mister Selensky has tabled, although he said, you know, 0:12:02.841 --> 0:12:08.961 he's he's willing to consider other variations on it, is 0:12:09.001 --> 0:12:14.201 a cessation of hostilities, the restoration of Ukraine's territorial integrity, 0:12:15.281 --> 0:12:19.001 withdraw Russian troops Ukrainian soil, and the restoration of Ukraine's 0:12:19.041 --> 0:12:22.001 pre war borders with Russia. Now, none of that's acceptable 0:12:22.041 --> 0:12:26.361 to the Russian leadership, but what has wide support internationally 0:12:27.121 --> 0:12:31.561 and so it's putting pressure on Russia and is an 0:12:31.561 --> 0:12:34.801 attempt to mobilize international support for Ukraine's position. 0:12:35.161 --> 0:12:37.761 So Ukraine's military position was looking pretty a little bit 0:12:37.801 --> 0:12:40.561 bleaker a few weeks ago, but how's it looking now? 0:12:41.161 --> 0:12:41.761 There was, it. 0:12:43.241 --> 0:12:46.801 Was, but there's some worrying things from mister Putin, because 0:12:47.761 --> 0:12:52.081 Ukraine is for the last few months has been baking 0:12:52.121 --> 0:12:56.081 a strategy of what's called asymmetrical warfare. It's not attempting 0:12:56.481 --> 0:12:59.121 to punch a hole through Russian defenses. It's going over 0:12:59.161 --> 0:13:02.321 the top now because it's been given going over the 0:13:02.321 --> 0:13:05.721 top of those defenses, because it's given permission by weapons 0:13:05.761 --> 0:13:09.401 owners like the US and Germany to use their weapons 0:13:09.441 --> 0:13:14.401 to attack targets or attack munitions and missiles which are 0:13:14.441 --> 0:13:17.201 being launched from Russian territory at least close to the border, 0:13:17.241 --> 0:13:20.961 anyway close to the border of Ukraine. So in a sense, 0:13:21.041 --> 0:13:25.001 what we've seen is a dramatic escalation, particularly since the 0:13:25.201 --> 0:13:29.081 last US arms deal worth sixty sixty sixty one billion, 0:13:29.841 --> 0:13:33.681 which enables Ukraine. They've got longer range missiles now atoms 0:13:33.761 --> 0:13:37.841 as their core, and they're using these long range missiles 0:13:38.161 --> 0:13:43.641 to target air defense systems in Crimea. In the last 0:13:43.721 --> 0:13:47.561 few days they've knocked out four I think three major 0:13:47.641 --> 0:13:51.241 Russian air defense systems. What does that mean, Well, it's 0:13:51.321 --> 0:13:55.881 very bad use, mister Putin, because if Crimea reaches a 0:13:55.921 --> 0:13:58.201 point where it can no longer be defended by the 0:13:58.681 --> 0:14:02.361 Russians adequately, that puts a lot of political pressure on 0:14:02.921 --> 0:14:07.281 mister Putin in the Kremlin. He can't really politically survive 0:14:07.361 --> 0:14:11.201 a situation where he's seen to lose in crimea. 0:14:10.961 --> 0:14:13.001 As the only real thing that he's ever going to 0:14:13.001 --> 0:14:15.041 respond to force. 0:14:16.881 --> 0:14:20.321 Well. This is a person who hasn't tolerated opposition at 0:14:20.361 --> 0:14:26.801 home and doesn't deal well when he counters resistance or 0:14:26.881 --> 0:14:31.161 opposition externally. So there's nothing in his track record which 0:14:31.201 --> 0:14:35.921 suggests he compromises or or you know, meets people halfway. 0:14:36.641 --> 0:14:39.081 And there's no halfway solution to this. By the way, 0:14:39.081 --> 0:14:41.521 you can't invade a country and they say I would 0:14:41.521 --> 0:14:43.841 decide to have half a loaf rather than the poor country. 0:14:44.041 --> 0:14:47.001 That's just not on and I don't see there's any 0:14:47.001 --> 0:14:50.561 way out, And quite frankly, I think the quickest way 0:14:50.601 --> 0:14:53.361 of ending this war is to give Ukraine the support 0:14:53.401 --> 0:14:56.401 it needs to prosecute the war against what is an 0:14:56.441 --> 0:14:58.841 illegal invasion and attempted annexation. 0:14:59.201 --> 0:15:00.721 Do you have any optimism as a result of the 0:15:00.761 --> 0:15:02.281 world leaders or gathering right now? 0:15:04.401 --> 0:15:08.201 I think it's a would move. I would personally like 0:15:08.281 --> 0:15:11.441 to have seen New Zealand represented. This is no slight 0:15:11.561 --> 0:15:15.041 on the Minister for Police, but heads of state fifty 0:15:15.081 --> 0:15:18.121 countries are setting their heads of state, including by the way, Japan, 0:15:18.881 --> 0:15:23.521 where mister Luxan is about to visit. So I would 0:15:23.521 --> 0:15:25.961 have liked to have seen either the Prime Minister or 0:15:25.961 --> 0:15:29.721 the Foreign Minister or the Defense minister being present in Switzerland. 0:15:29.921 --> 0:15:33.001 But it is an important conference because it's important for 0:15:33.121 --> 0:15:37.001 liberal democracy is in particular to show their solidarity with 0:15:37.641 --> 0:15:40.641 a country like Ukraine, which is a liberal democracy. But 0:15:40.681 --> 0:15:44.241 it's also a country which has given up nuclear weapons. 0:15:44.281 --> 0:15:47.001 You know, it shares that with New Zealand that we 0:15:47.081 --> 0:15:49.681 have non nuclear two countries have a non nuclear vision. 0:15:49.721 --> 0:15:53.321 So it's important. And please we've got someone there. I 0:15:53.401 --> 0:15:55.201 just thought it would have been nice if we've just 0:15:55.761 --> 0:15:58.481 elevated it a bit, but that's you know, it's politics 0:15:58.521 --> 0:15:58.681 as it. 0:15:58.721 --> 0:16:01.321 Yeah, well, Robert, I really appreciate you taking the time 0:16:01.361 --> 0:16:03.121 to talk to us this afternoon. Thank you so much. 0:16:03.201 --> 0:16:03.521 Thank you. 0:16:03.681 --> 0:16:06.001 Enjoy the resk of you afternoon. That's Robert Patman. He's 0:16:06.001 --> 0:16:10.361 international relations professor at a Tiger University. Some fascinating insights there. Gosh, 0:16:10.721 --> 0:16:12.961 interesting developments. Isn't it a couple of big things happening 0:16:13.521 --> 0:16:16.561 in that respect? Well, probably I'll throw this into talk 0:16:16.561 --> 0:16:18.161 back as well, actually, is it a mistake that we're 0:16:18.161 --> 0:16:22.561 not sending Christopher Luxen or maybe Winston Peters. I can 0:16:22.601 --> 0:16:25.801 see the logic for Mark Mitchell having served in international 0:16:25.801 --> 0:16:27.961 conflicts and having an insight in that stuff. But from 0:16:28.641 --> 0:16:31.281 a diplomatic point of view, I mean world leaders are 0:16:31.321 --> 0:16:34.761 going and we're sending our minister of Police. I think 0:16:35.081 --> 0:16:37.161 Robert Patman makes an interesting point there. You can text 0:16:37.201 --> 0:16:40.761 me your feedback on nine two nine two anyway. We'll 0:16:40.761 --> 0:16:42.721 be back in just a moment, Brook van veld and 0:16:42.721 --> 0:16:46.081 the Minister for Work PAPST Relationships Relations will join us 0:16:46.121 --> 0:16:48.321 to talk about health and safety in just a moment 0:16:48.401 --> 0:16:51.161 to welcome back to the Weekend collective. By the way, 0:16:51.361 --> 0:16:53.681 anytime you want to send your feedback in text on 0:16:53.761 --> 0:16:59.161 nine two nine two and right moving on, so, Workplace 0:16:59.201 --> 0:17:03.121 Relations and Safety Minister Brook van Velden has opened consultation 0:17:03.241 --> 0:17:06.681 for an overhaul of the Health and Safety at Work Act. 0:17:06.801 --> 0:17:09.561 Plans for reform come as part of the National and 0:17:09.721 --> 0:17:14.161 Act Coalition agreement. Minister Van Velden made the consultation announcement 0:17:14.161 --> 0:17:17.241 on Friday, saying our health and safety culture can be 0:17:17.241 --> 0:17:20.881 summed up by the sea of orange road cones that 0:17:20.921 --> 0:17:24.321 have taken over the country, from Santa parades to property development. 0:17:24.641 --> 0:17:26.921 You can't get a lot done without having to set 0:17:27.001 --> 0:17:30.561 up a barricade of cones. Workplace Relations and Safety Minister 0:17:30.601 --> 0:17:32.081 Brook van Velden joins me. 0:17:32.161 --> 0:17:36.161 Now, good afternoon, Good afternoon, Tim, How are you. 0:17:36.401 --> 0:17:38.961 I'm pretty good. Thanks. You know the thing that stuck 0:17:38.961 --> 0:17:41.881 out Santa parades? What's happening at Santa parades? 0:17:44.361 --> 0:17:47.401 Like this was just one example. And I talk to 0:17:47.481 --> 0:17:51.001 people all the time and say, you can't get anywhere 0:17:51.401 --> 0:17:55.121 around Auckland, or around any one of our main highways, 0:17:55.201 --> 0:17:59.921 or anywhere in the country, to be frank without encountering 0:18:00.121 --> 0:18:02.641 orange cones everywhere. And just as I was on my 0:18:02.761 --> 0:18:06.121 way to make that announcement down at Field, we came 0:18:06.161 --> 0:18:08.721 across hundreds of orange cones on the way, on the 0:18:08.761 --> 0:18:11.161 sides of the road, and they didn't appear to be 0:18:11.201 --> 0:18:15.041 any good reason or justification for them. So we're hoping 0:18:15.081 --> 0:18:18.441 to ask some good, genuine questions of our health and 0:18:18.481 --> 0:18:22.481 safety today. Yeah, I'm sure in many cases they make 0:18:22.561 --> 0:18:25.681 sense to keep people safe, but are we overdoing it 0:18:25.721 --> 0:18:26.681 in other cases? 0:18:27.081 --> 0:18:29.681 Okay, so they're an example is sort of an obvious example. 0:18:29.721 --> 0:18:32.761 We can all relate to more specifically outside of that 0:18:32.841 --> 0:18:34.681 what is broken and what needs to be fixed. 0:18:37.041 --> 0:18:41.121 But what is really broken here is many people, businesses 0:18:41.161 --> 0:18:43.681 and workers are not sure what they should be doing 0:18:43.721 --> 0:18:46.801 to comply with health and safety, and so we're seeing 0:18:46.841 --> 0:18:50.201 people put up posters and their work environments wondering is 0:18:50.241 --> 0:18:53.801 that enough to keep my workers safe? And other times 0:18:53.841 --> 0:18:57.241 we have a lot of cops added to business. Business 0:18:57.241 --> 0:19:00.521 owners are now questioning whether or not what they're doing 0:19:00.561 --> 0:19:03.961 to comply is actually leading to better outcomes. So what 0:19:04.001 --> 0:19:07.041 I'm hoping to do with this consultation is go around 0:19:07.001 --> 0:19:10.081 to New zealand talk to as many different industry groups 0:19:10.121 --> 0:19:13.121 from the business side as well as the worker's perspective 0:19:13.441 --> 0:19:18.241 to understand whether the laws and the regulations are working 0:19:18.641 --> 0:19:23.201 for specific industries and whether or not they're too prescriptive 0:19:23.921 --> 0:19:28.081 or whether they're too relaxed. Until we've got those questions answered, 0:19:28.401 --> 0:19:30.681 I'm not going to say I know all of the answers. 0:19:30.801 --> 0:19:34.241 Do businesses know what's expected of them under the current legislation. 0:19:36.761 --> 0:19:41.361 In many cases, people are following the guidance that's given 0:19:41.401 --> 0:19:43.681 by Work Safe, and they do feel like there is 0:19:44.641 --> 0:19:46.921 very good guidance there. But on the other hand, I've 0:19:46.961 --> 0:19:50.521 also spoken to business owners who aren't sure whether or 0:19:50.521 --> 0:19:53.561 not they're doing what they need to to comply. In 0:19:53.641 --> 0:19:59.681 many cases, when we're bringing in this director liability to businesses, 0:20:00.001 --> 0:20:02.881 there is a bit of a gray zone on who 0:20:03.081 --> 0:20:06.041 is actually liable. Is it the business owner, is it 0:20:06.081 --> 0:20:09.801 the manager, is it the people on the ground. Well, 0:20:10.001 --> 0:20:13.521 in some cases it's everyone, but people are unclear. So 0:20:13.561 --> 0:20:15.761 what we're hoping to do is make those laws clearer 0:20:16.201 --> 0:20:20.561 and also ask whether or not the costs are outweighing 0:20:20.601 --> 0:20:23.521 the benefits in some cases. But let's actually get a 0:20:23.521 --> 0:20:26.521 better understanding of what's happening out there and why it's 0:20:26.521 --> 0:20:27.761 so hard for people to comply. 0:20:28.041 --> 0:20:30.841 Of course, inevitably, I imagine it's we're always going to have 0:20:30.881 --> 0:20:34.361 to balance this need for safety and practicalities and common sense. 0:20:34.401 --> 0:20:37.321 And you talk about balancing that in your press release, 0:20:37.401 --> 0:20:40.281 the need for safety with the practicalities and common sense. 0:20:42.441 --> 0:20:43.801 Are you going to be able to do it without 0:20:44.001 --> 0:20:47.001 still having to rely on terms such as so far 0:20:47.161 --> 0:20:50.201 as is reasonably practicable? Or are there away? Is there 0:20:50.201 --> 0:20:52.521 always going to have to be some sort of general 0:20:52.561 --> 0:20:54.241 sort of by the way, what do you reckon? 0:20:56.121 --> 0:20:58.841 Yeah, And that's one of the central questions that we'll 0:20:58.881 --> 0:21:03.121 be asking, how do you determine what is reasonably practicable? 0:21:03.521 --> 0:21:06.601 In some industries, people have been asking for the law 0:21:06.641 --> 0:21:08.721 to be very black and white so they can be 0:21:08.801 --> 0:21:13.001 one hundred percent clear that they have complied. And in others, no, 0:21:13.121 --> 0:21:15.881 this is far too prescriptive. We don't want that. And 0:21:15.921 --> 0:21:17.841 that's in the case of the orange cones. You know 0:21:17.921 --> 0:21:21.601 that's actually written out how far distance they should be 0:21:21.601 --> 0:21:25.361 between each cone. That's getting into really nitty gritty, niche 0:21:26.361 --> 0:21:30.761 prescriptive law. Those questions, I think do need to be asked. 0:21:31.161 --> 0:21:35.161 How prescriptive is right for specific industries and is it 0:21:35.241 --> 0:21:39.081 too prescriptive in some cases and not prescriptive enough in others. 0:21:39.841 --> 0:21:42.441 So I'm hoping going all the way from paying a 0:21:42.481 --> 0:21:45.161 Day all the way down to in Vicago, we'll get 0:21:45.161 --> 0:21:47.721 a better picture as a government of what is happening 0:21:47.761 --> 0:21:50.161 on the ground and how we can make sure that 0:21:51.081 --> 0:21:55.001 health and safety compliance doesn't cripple productivity because we know 0:21:55.081 --> 0:21:57.601 that we've got that issue. But on the other hand, 0:21:57.881 --> 0:22:01.281 ensuring that we are keeping people safe work so that 0:22:01.361 --> 0:22:04.961 they are returning home to their families. It's about the balance. 0:22:05.081 --> 0:22:10.241 Well, the Greens are protecting death. Their spokesperson too Too, 0:22:10.561 --> 0:22:13.801 says more workers are going to die as a result 0:22:13.801 --> 0:22:15.961 of this move. It's that simple. Is it that simple. 0:22:17.521 --> 0:22:20.041 It's not that simple. It's not that simple. It really 0:22:20.041 --> 0:22:23.081 does come down to that balance. Yes, at the heart 0:22:23.121 --> 0:22:26.601 of this, I want to make sure that everybody goes 0:22:26.641 --> 0:22:29.001 home safe at the end of the day when they're 0:22:29.001 --> 0:22:32.001 out there providing for their families, that they return home 0:22:32.041 --> 0:22:34.881 to their families. But on the other hand, if we 0:22:35.281 --> 0:22:39.241 burden companies and business owners with compliance and compliance and 0:22:39.281 --> 0:22:42.361 more cost and more regulation, and it doesn't actually lead 0:22:42.401 --> 0:22:46.321 to better outcomes for the workers, is it beneficial not 0:22:46.401 --> 0:22:48.601 just for that business, not just for that worker, but 0:22:48.641 --> 0:22:52.041 for overall economy. So we need to be ripping back 0:22:52.761 --> 0:22:55.441 the layers and seeing whether or not all of these 0:22:55.521 --> 0:22:59.361 rules and restrictions are actually leading to better outcomes and 0:22:59.601 --> 0:23:00.521