1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: Work Safe has announced an investigation into the Mount Monganui landslide. 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: They're going to be looking into the organizations that had 3 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: a duty of care for the guests at holiday at 4 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: the holiday park and whether or not they met their 5 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: health and safety responsibilities. Despite reports of slips from five 6 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning and an early morning call to 7 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,159 Speaker 1: one one one warning of landslides, the holiday park and 8 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: hot pools at the base of the mountain were not 9 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: evacuated on time. Mike Cosmen from the New Zealand Institute 10 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: of Safety Management is whether sus athenoon gidda Mike, good day, Jack, 11 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 1: So what questions will work safe actually be attempting to 12 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: answer here? 13 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 2: So look, Jack, obviously the first thing to acknowledge is 14 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 2: is this is a dreadful tragedy and it's still ongoing, 15 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,839 Speaker 2: and there are families who are still watching and waiting 16 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:48,520 Speaker 2: and first responders who are still having to go through 17 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 2: the wreckage trying to recover those remains. So clearly they 18 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 2: are front and center in our thoughts. But I guess 19 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 2: in terms of the role of work Safe, it's actually 20 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 2: quite complex case like this dependent on a number of 21 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 2: factors as to whether the health and Safety work at 22 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:10,119 Speaker 2: actually applies, who it applies to, and then, obviously, if 23 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 2: it does apply, whether there is any evidence to suggest 24 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 2: that anybody has failed to meet a duty. But I 25 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 2: think without sort of getting too technical about it, it's 26 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 2: important to know that Health and Safety at Work Act 27 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 2: is about work right, and it's primarily about protecting workers 28 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 2: and others from risks that arise from work. It's not 29 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 2: general public safety legislation, and so that will be I 30 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 2: think at the heart of work Safe's initial inquiries, which 31 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 2: is to find out, you know, was there a workplace, 32 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 2: were there workers, and what was the nature of the 33 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,559 Speaker 2: work that was taking place, and how did that relate 34 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 2: to the circumstances that prevailed on that day. 35 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: Can you unpick a bit distinction for us? A bit 36 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: more so to be totally clear, is what you're suggesting 37 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: that work Safe would only really be concerned if a 38 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: potential landslide impacted workers. I either there were campground or 39 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: hotpol's workers in the vicinity of potential landslides rather than 40 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: simply holiday ground you know, holiday makers who'd set up 41 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: the intent or caravans. 42 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,279 Speaker 2: Yes, So this is where it gets quite quite complicated 43 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:24,959 Speaker 2: because running any kind of business or activity where you're 44 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 2: charging people for services such as a campground, does make 45 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 2: you what we describe as a PCBU, a person conducting 46 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 2: a business or undertaking, and you will normally have duties 47 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 2: under the Act, but the extent of those duties will 48 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 2: be determined by the scope of the legislation. And as 49 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 2: I say, that's risks to workers and others arising from work. 50 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 2: So had somebody been who was a worker for the 51 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 2: campground been doing something which precipitated the slip, then clearly 52 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 2: you would say there would have a duty. But failing 53 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 2: to respond to calls that were made at five point 54 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 2: thirty in the morning, yes, you could say that the 55 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 2: person at the call center who took the call on 56 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 2: behalf of council was a worker. But then the question 57 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 2: would be was their response or lack of response or 58 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 2: whatever it may be, was that something which was material 59 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 2: in relation to what transpired. So it's complicated, and I 60 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 2: think if I read Worksapees Press release correctly, what they're 61 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 2: saying is they're going to make initial inquiries before deciding 62 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 2: whether to launch a full scale investigation using their various powers. 63 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: Would there be other criminal grounds for an investigation or indeed, 64 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: a prosecution if work Safe determines that this didn't result 65 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: from an act of work as such. 66 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 2: So this is where it gets it gets interesting because, 67 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: as you'll be aware, right back to the Canterbury earthquake 68 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 2: and the CCTV building, Pike River and others, there's been 69 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 2: calls for corporate manslaughter offenses. We don't currently have corporate manslaughter. 70 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: We have individual manslaughter. But you know that then is 71 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 2: a question for the police to investigate to determine whether 72 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,039 Speaker 2: there was gross negligence on the part of anybody that 73 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 2: could have given rise to an offense of manslaughter. I 74 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 2: think what we're going to see in the next few 75 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 2: days and weeks is there's going to be a lot 76 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 2: of investigations going on. So the police will be investigating 77 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 2: on behalf of the coroner, and you know, they could 78 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 2: potentially decide to investigate in their own right. We've heard 79 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:56,159 Speaker 2: that Tarrona City Council are having their own independent investigation 80 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 2: work Safe and now said their investigation no doubt, friends, Niema, 81 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 2: a whole lot of others. And one of my concerns 82 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 2: here is that when you've got multiple simultaneous investigations going on, 83 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 2: witnesses FARO first responders having to retell their stories multiple 84 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 2: times to multiple different agencies can be incredibly traumatic because 85 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 2: each time they're having to retell the story brings back 86 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 2: memories and personally, I would favor one investigation that covers 87 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 2: all of the ground rather than having multiple ones looking 88 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 2: at it from different angles but basically talking to the 89 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 2: same people about the same issues. 90 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 1: Yeah. Right, that's a very interesting point. Thanks Mike, We 91 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: appreciate your time. Mike Cosmon from the New Zealand Institute 92 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: of Safety Management. 93 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 2: For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to 94 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,559 Speaker 2: news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow 95 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio.