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Speaker 1: Time for the Prime Minister this Tuesday morning. Good to

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Speaker 1: see you. The Maori investigation, Mary Party investigation, the Public

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Speaker 1: Service Commission, who runs it and when are we getting

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Speaker 1: those details?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that'll be confirmed this week. The terms of reference,

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Speaker 2: who's the reviewer and actually the timing around that. Just

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Speaker 2: taking a step back, what we're trying to do is

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Speaker 2: make sure there's trust and confidence in the public institutions.

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Speaker 2: I want to make sure that we've actually got an

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Speaker 2: all of government sort of response to did the agencies

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Speaker 2: do the right thing managing conflicts? Making sure they manage

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Speaker 2: the data appropriately? And there's a bunch of independent agency

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Speaker 2: reviews going on, but I don't think it's appropriate that

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Speaker 2: agencies do their own sort of review for themselves. So

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Speaker 2: that's why I want to So.

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Speaker 1: The ones that have started by the police, are they

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Speaker 1: wasting their time or not?

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Speaker 2: That's important that have a very narrow scope about what

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Speaker 2: they did or didn't do, but that all needs to

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Speaker 2: be fed into and interrogated by the Public Service Cool.

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Speaker 1: So are you looking at government departments and what they

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Speaker 1: did or didn't do, or are you looking at the

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Speaker 1: Maori Party and what they did or did So.

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Speaker 2: The police and the Privacy Commissioner, they have compelling powers

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Speaker 2: and they'll be able to look at the third party

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Speaker 2: actors in this case to party MARII us.

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Speaker 1: Right, all of that stuff yesterday's got nothing to do

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Speaker 1: with the Malory Party.

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Speaker 2: Correct, It's got to really look at the government agency

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Speaker 2: response and its interaction with those agents, with those parties,

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Speaker 2: particularly did they follow the right process on data management,

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Speaker 2: conflicts of interest, those sorts of things.

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Speaker 1: Although you're never going to find anything out because if

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Speaker 1: I go along to the Mariah and I'm filling in

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Speaker 1: a sensus and they say, hey, there's your number, and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to take that over there and then we'll

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Speaker 1: ring you later on and send you a few texts

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Speaker 1: and you can vote for the Mallory Party, your investigation

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Speaker 1: doesn't get anywhere near that does now.

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Speaker 2: But what I'd say is the police investigation will and

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Speaker 2: the Privacy Commissioner investigation will because they have compelling powers,

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Speaker 2: coercive powers to be able to look at all of

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Speaker 2: that stuff, which they've already got investigations up and running

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Speaker 2: and doing it. What I'm making sure is that actually

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Speaker 2: New Zealanders know that there is trust and confidence in

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Speaker 2: their institutions. And then the agencies in particular, I don't

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Speaker 2: want them essentially marking their own homework. I want to

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Speaker 2: make sure that actually they've acted appropriately managing potential conflicts interest,

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Speaker 2: because the alligations are pretty serious. If they end up

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Speaker 2: in a place where data roams from one organization through

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Speaker 2: to another organization because someone's wearing multiple hats that stuff,

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Speaker 2: I want to know how has that been managed?

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Speaker 1: Is that part the serious part? Or is it the

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Speaker 1: serious part the Mailory party who allegedly took information they

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Speaker 1: weren't entitled to and used it in a way that's

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Speaker 1: against the law.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's the serious That's why these allegations are

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Speaker 2: incredibly serious, and that's why they need to be properly investigated.

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Speaker 2: And the police and the Privacy Commissioner have those powers

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Speaker 2: to do that part of it. And then I want

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Speaker 2: to make sure, rather than having a series of individual

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Speaker 2: agencies investigations which are important, but actually that there's a

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Speaker 2: whole of government response that we understand what government. You know,

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Speaker 2: I want to be reassured that government actually reconcreated wealth.

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Speaker 1: Does the Privacy Commissioner have the power to subpoena people?

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Speaker 2: Because yeses I understand it. They and the police do.

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Speaker 1: Because that's the only way you're going to get to

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Speaker 1: the bottom of it.

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Speaker 2: Those compelling powers, and that's why they've got those powers

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Speaker 2: and don't. I can't run an investigation that runs over

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Speaker 2: the top of all of that, and that's why when

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Speaker 2: I looked at all the options set that I had

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Speaker 2: in front of me, I decided that that was the

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Speaker 2: best way to go. And you know, they'll get an

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Speaker 2: independent reviewer and they'll be to get the terms of

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Speaker 2: reference and actually engage with all those agencies and make

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Speaker 2: sure that we've got that they've done everything right, because.

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Speaker 1: You seem to me to have rules and you have laws.

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Speaker 1: So the rules, for example, is should a Maria whose

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Speaker 1: candidate is the CEO then turn out to be a

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Speaker 1: polling booth? Yep, Well, those that's your inquiry, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's a responsibility of the Electoral Commission, which will

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Speaker 2: actually be you know, the my inquiry will look at

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Speaker 2: all the government agencies and Crown indies if we have

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Speaker 2: to as well, and their response.

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Speaker 1: But then you go to the government that sets the

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Speaker 1: precedent by handing out lollies and warriors tickets to fill

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Speaker 1: in forms and that's part of it as well, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, that's the point I'm trying to get to

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Speaker 2: is like, well, you know, have have the government agencies

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Speaker 2: behaved appropriately and.

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Speaker 1: Well what's appropriate? Who decides?

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Speaker 2: Well, Well, that's what I want the independent reviewer to

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Speaker 2: look at. So for example, there are real rules around

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Speaker 2: you know, when you pass you know, third party information

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Speaker 2: off or data off into different organizations, whether you're outsourcing

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Speaker 2: that to other community organizations to do a bunch of

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Speaker 2: work or not. I want to make sure that's all

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Speaker 2: really tight, and I want to make sure conflicts are managed. Now,

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Speaker 2: that's the other piece in this as well, is to

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Speaker 2: make sure that conflicts of interest are properly, properly managed.

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Speaker 2: You can't have you know, data flowing through a series

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Speaker 2: of organizations while someone's wearing multiple hats.

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Speaker 1: I mean, but it was there for everyone to see.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the CEO is the candidate who runs the marah,

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Speaker 1: which is the polling booth, which is the center for

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Speaker 1: the census, which is the center of the COVID vaccine,

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Speaker 1: and the warriors tickets are being handed out and we

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Speaker 1: might be swapping numbers and texting people cluster.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's why I'm saying the allegations are very serious.

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Speaker 2: New Zealand prides itself on having really robust quality public institutions.

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Speaker 2: That's why I want sunlight put on it because actually,

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Speaker 2: if if they're true, they're really serious, Yes they are,

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Speaker 2: and if they're not true, they're equally The parties deserve

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Speaker 2: clarity on that too.

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Speaker 1: Without prejudging what the police might come up with. As

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Speaker 1: regards David McLeod as the leader of the party, is

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Speaker 1: you're understanding he's administratively negligent, it's not criminal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, he's really made a big mistake. He's owned

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Speaker 2: up to that. He's fully operating with the police. He's

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Speaker 2: grateful it. Actually it's moved through to the police quickly,

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Speaker 2: which is the.

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Speaker 1: Police being I mean, I know rules have been broken,

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Speaker 1: because we all seem to admit the rules were broken.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they got better things to do with their time.

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Speaker 1: What are they going to do an electoral system.

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Speaker 2: We've got an electoral commission and you know, the resubmission

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Speaker 2: of his return, as you know, got put back to

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Speaker 2: electoral commission and then they determine whether it's a breach

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Speaker 2: or not that requires police or serious fraud investigation. I

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Speaker 2: think those things are kind of important. You know, we

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Speaker 2: don't want to have our public institutions, our democratic processes

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Speaker 2: sort of undermined in any form of way. So let's

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Speaker 2: follow the process.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Chinese Premier, he walks into the room and you go, hello, Premier,

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Speaker 1: how are you? How long before there's a few translations,

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Speaker 1: but how long before the word orcat comes up?

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Speaker 2: Look, it'll be pretty The Chinese relationship is a long

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Speaker 2: standing one. It's pretty complex. There's two parts to it.

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Speaker 2: We cooperate where we can on common interest and that's

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Speaker 2: trade and all that good stuff, but equally a lot

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Speaker 2: Let's be honest, we have different political systems, we have

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Speaker 2: different political cultures, histories, and as a result, we have

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Speaker 2: differences of opinion. That's no different from any other relationship

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Speaker 2: we have frankly as well. But we'll be talking about

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Speaker 2: the issues that are important to us, and I'm sure

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Speaker 2: he'll raise things with that.

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Speaker 1: He's only here in Australia because they're worried about the Americans.

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Speaker 1: That's basically what's about, isn't it. Well there's a bit

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Speaker 1: of trade on the side, but.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, actually, in this case, I mean his focus is

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Speaker 2: he's very much responsible for the economic agenda in China,

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Speaker 2: and he's concerned because China's obviously hitting headwinds. They've got

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Speaker 2: a declining population, they've got to slow down on their growth.

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Speaker 2: I've got high levels of youth unemployment. So his interest

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Speaker 2: is really about productivity and economic productivity. So the trade

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Speaker 2: piece of it will actually be a very important part

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Speaker 2: because from a New Zealand perspective, there is still lots

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Speaker 2: of opportunity there. There's also lots of opportunities Southeast Asia,

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Speaker 2: Northeast Asia and India as well.

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Speaker 1: Okay, which we'll talk about Japana. Just a couple of

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Speaker 1: moments that they allegedly want into the CPTPP. Are we

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Speaker 1: in a position to help them if they ask? Have

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Speaker 1: they asked?

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Speaker 2: They might likely ask, but our positions really clear. We

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Speaker 2: don't actually side with any particular aspirant that wants to

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Speaker 2: enter the CPTPP or deeper is the other one grouping

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Speaker 2: as well. We have a process which is they've got

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Speaker 2: to demonstrate that they've she managed other trade obligations. Well actually,

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Speaker 2: well that's what they're This is what we call the

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Speaker 2: Auckland principles. There's criteria they've got to go through, and

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Speaker 2: there's a process that they need to go through.

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Speaker 1: Well, as one of the people who would agree or

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Speaker 1: not agree to letting them in, they wouldn't pass mustard,

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Speaker 1: would they.

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Speaker 2: Well, again, that's something that we don't pass judgment on

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Speaker 2: individual cases. We do genuinely run it through the group

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Speaker 2: and there has to be consensus within.

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Speaker 1: The group, so everyone has to agree.

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Speaker 2: Correct, You've got to make sure you've held up high standards. Well,

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Speaker 2: they's a high sounds in your trading obligation?

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Speaker 1: Would you tell them that if we asked, Well, that's.

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Speaker 2: What We'll be laying out those criteria for sure.

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Speaker 1: Because they happen have they I mean, they're not free traders,

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Speaker 1: they're not good traders there.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's asssible the CPTPP you, I'll be outlining the

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Speaker 2: criteria when I get asked about that.

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Speaker 1: I'm you know, the Europeans and the Americans seem to

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Speaker 1: have a few issues with the way they do trade

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Speaker 1: and that would trip them up.

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Speaker 2: Surely. Well, it's them and many other aspirants that have

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Speaker 2: actually got to meet that test. And so it's pretty clear.

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Speaker 2: We laid out three things that they've got to do.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Direction one one O, which has come since we

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Speaker 1: have last talked, is it worth making a phone call

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Speaker 1: to anyone in Australia to express your upset at this

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Speaker 1: or well done?

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Speaker 2: Well? I think it's actually I mean, the first thing

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Speaker 2: I'd say is like Australia is completely within its freedom

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Speaker 2: to set its own rules and laws as it sees fit.

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Speaker 2: We have a major issue when people get deported here

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Speaker 2: that have no connections to the country. I've spoken to

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Speaker 2: Prome Minister Albanesi, Foreign Minister Peters has spoken to the

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Speaker 2: Immigration minister involved. We've raised our concerns very very strongly,

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Speaker 2: and he has reassured me that there will continue to

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Speaker 2: be a common sense approach will apply. The devil will

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Speaker 2: be in the detail and that's what we now need

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Speaker 2: to monitor as it moves from words on a page

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Speaker 2: to actually implementation of process. We want to see how

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Speaker 2: that all shakes down. I'll continue to raise that with

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Speaker 2: him and he's well aware of our concerns. He reassured

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Speaker 2: me that a common sense approach would continue to apply

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Speaker 2: and let's see, okay, and that's what I wanted.

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Speaker 1: It is Japan just an extension of what you did

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Speaker 1: the other day.

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Speaker 2: Well, Japan's quite important because one it's the fourth largest

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Speaker 2: economy in the world. It's our fourth biggest trading partner, actually,

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Speaker 2: third biggest source of international students, fifth biggest source of tourists.

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Speaker 2: And we need to do two things there. One is

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Speaker 2: to go back and say, hey, listen on our core

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Speaker 2: businesses and horticulture and agriculture and tourism and education, we're

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Speaker 2: back open for business because we actually need to turn

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Speaker 2: the volume up in those markets, and that's why I'm

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Speaker 2: taking thirty one business delegation there. And the second thing

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Speaker 2: is we have lots of things of interest to them

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Speaker 2: around renewable energy, geo therm or actually space that they're

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Speaker 2: very interested as well, so Sir Peter Beck's coming to

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Speaker 2: Rocket Lab with us on.

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Speaker 1: That as well.

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Speaker 2: And then the other bit is the political pieces that

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Speaker 2: you promise to Kashida is a key player in the

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Speaker 2: region and now I mean from a security sense as

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Speaker 2: well as obviously from an economic sense. So it's important

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Speaker 2: that again I want the intensity of our relationships lifted

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Speaker 2: big time. That's why when I've got a recess break,

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Speaker 2: I'm shooting off very quickly as I did last week

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Speaker 2: to the Pacific, this week to China and having China

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Speaker 2: visitors and then into Japan.

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Speaker 1: Go, well, you're on the seven five seven again. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we will it got us there. Mic. Last time, one's further.

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Speaker 1: It's a longer trick.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but I just chouned down the takeoffs and the

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Speaker 2: landings and we go to Port Moresby for the refuel

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Speaker 2: and then on to take so I've got every confidence.

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Speaker 2: I've got more building confidence every time I get on

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Speaker 2: that plane.

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Speaker 1: All right, go, well, nice to see you, Prime Minister

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Speaker 1: Christer Blackson.

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Speaker 2: For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to

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Speaker 2: news Talks.

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Speaker 1: It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast

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Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio.