Speaker 1: Just a quick note. This interview with Mark Mitchell was
Speaker 1: recorded prior to the Tongedito fire Kyota. I'm Chelsea Daniels
Speaker 1: and this is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented
Speaker 1: by the New Zealand Herald. Mark Mitchell has heralded the
Speaker 1: government's promise to be tough on crime. He's been incredibly
Speaker 1: clear from the get go that his primary goal is
Speaker 1: to make New Zealand an uncomfortable place for gangs to operate.
Speaker 1: He holds five portfolios Police Corrections, Emergency Management and Recovery,
Speaker 1: Ethnic Communities, and Sports and Recreation. So how does an
Speaker 1: MP with so many hats feel about how his government
Speaker 1: has tackled the big issues? Today on the Front Page,
Speaker 1: Mitchell joins us to talk cops, corrections and community. So
Speaker 1: first off, Mark, you're very looking, very comfortable.
Speaker 2: Whereabouts are you? I'm a marrying you bay beach.
Speaker 1: Marrying your Bay beach and whereabouts? Just right on the
Speaker 1: beach there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sitting right on the beach.
Speaker 3: And this is is the beach that this is the
Speaker 3: when I was a kid, This is.
Speaker 2: Where I grew up in that surf club.
Speaker 3: I don't know if you can see the surf club yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: that was my surf club, so it's not actually my
Speaker 3: electric because I ran had a tie. I was trying
Speaker 3: to get back up to my pitch, but I ran
Speaker 3: out of time, so I thought I'll go and sit
Speaker 3: down of Marrying your Bay Beach and do the podcast
Speaker 3: and Chelsea down there.
Speaker 1: So Mark, we've seen a scandal this year at the
Speaker 1: top of the police chain. There's no denying that. Are
Speaker 1: you confident the public still has trust in the New
Speaker 1: Zealand Police?
Speaker 3: Well, I hope that they do maintain trusted in New
Speaker 3: Zealand Police because.
Speaker 2: Without a doubt we have got a.
Speaker 3: World clast police force, and the size of the organization
Speaker 3: that we have, there's always going to be the odd
Speaker 3: rotten apple in the barrel. And look how police officers
Speaker 3: are out there every day, you know, with teams of
Speaker 3: thousands of postive actions, protecting and supporting their communities, the communites.
Speaker 2: That they serve.
Speaker 3: And I'd just like to say Chelsea that this week
Speaker 3: I've been to two police Awards ceremonies and probably seventy
Speaker 3: five percent of the awards that I see handed out
Speaker 3: to police officers that have put themselves in danger, saved
Speaker 3: the lives of members of the public. When you see
Speaker 3: bad behavior from a police officer, there's no one feels
Speaker 3: it more deeply than those thousands of both our sworn
Speaker 3: and non sworn staff that are out there actually holding
Speaker 3: to and you know, the values and ideals of our
Speaker 3: New Zealand police. No one feels it more deeply than
Speaker 3: them when there's someone that doesn't hold to those values.
Speaker 1: Is it concerning to you, though, that that rotten or
Speaker 1: if we're talking about rotten apples, that one of the
Speaker 1: rotten apples nearly got the top police job, always in
Speaker 1: contention for the top police job in this country.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's of course, that's a genuine concern, and I
Speaker 3: acknowledge that.
Speaker 2: All I'd say is that as the incoming police.
Speaker 3: Minister, there with quite a few issues that I had
Speaker 3: to view with and one of them was this case.
Speaker 3: And I'm sorry that I can't talk to the detail
Speaker 3: on a Chelsea but it's actually the case. Although there
Speaker 3: has been a guilty plea put in, that's still before
Speaker 3: the courts for sentencings, so I can't talk to the
Speaker 3: case directly.
Speaker 1: That's a good one. We'll move on to crime statistics.
Speaker 1: They show a sharp drop in alcohol related violent crime.
Speaker 1: Since June twenty twenty four to May this year, the
Speaker 1: fallen alcohol involved offending accounted for actually sixty five percent
Speaker 1: of the total drop in violent offending. Should the government
Speaker 1: do more to curb alcohol related crime? Do you think?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think that.
Speaker 3: You know, alcohol and drugs have always been a huge
Speaker 3: aggravating factor in terms of the petration and violent crime.
Speaker 3: Education has to continue to be a big part of that.
Speaker 3: You know, the police are obviously run very effective road
Speaker 3: safety programs to make our roads safe.
Speaker 2: You know, we've driven down the rates.
Speaker 3: Of trunk driving significantly, and there's always differently, there's different
Speaker 3: things that police are looking at doing and providing.
Speaker 2: Device Who's justice.
Speaker 3: Officials in terms of how we can continue to make change?
Speaker 3: Is that balance other people's right, the responsible drinkers to.
Speaker 2: Have access to our coholum and be able.
Speaker 3: To enjoy that responsibly against the ones that aren't responsible
Speaker 3: and public safety?
Speaker 1: New Zealand's prison population you'll be aware as hitting record highs,
Speaker 1: is this a good thing or a bad thing?
Speaker 3: Look, I think any society would agree that we don't
Speaker 3: want that. We'd love to not have prisons, and we'd
Speaker 3: love to have everyone that lives in our societies and
Speaker 3: our communities respect one another and not there or.
Speaker 2: Perpetrate violent crime against.
Speaker 3: The people in society that are laura by it. But unfortunately,
Speaker 3: as long as humans have been roaming this earth, that
Speaker 3: hasn't been the case. And so we've been very clear
Speaker 3: as the end couping government that we are prioritizing public
Speaker 3: safety that if we have people in our society and
Speaker 3: our communities that don't want to stick to the laws,
Speaker 3: they want to hurt people, then you know they are
Speaker 3: going to end up and they keep assisting in that
Speaker 3: sort of behavior, then they are going to end up
Speaker 3: in prison in our correction, still, because we want law
Speaker 3: a body citizens to feel safe.
Speaker 1: Does it mean the government's stance on being tough on
Speaker 1: crime is actually working.
Speaker 3: Well, it's working in the sense that the targets that
Speaker 3: we sent into and reduction and victimizations, we've already met that.
Speaker 3: In fact, we've exceeded that. And of course you'd have
Speaker 3: to look at our response as a government, which includes
Speaker 3: increased we've made sentencing much tougher, we have reduced the
Speaker 3: discounts that we're allowed from you know, you've seen discounts
Speaker 3: of seventy eighty percent we get that at forty percent.
Speaker 3: And like I said, just as an incoming government, we
Speaker 3: have and as the three parties as a coalition, as
Speaker 3: a coalition government have been very clear that we are
Speaker 3: prioritizing public safety.
Speaker 1: What if it's working too well? I mean we've already
Speaker 1: hit the population estimates within about ten nine hundred behind bars.
Speaker 1: Will there be more money in the kiddy next year
Speaker 1: to address how many people are actually going to prison?
Speaker 3: Yes, so as of yesterday there is about ten eight
Speaker 3: hundred in the prison muster and corrections to an outstanding
Speaker 3: job that is literally a daily event and to make
Speaker 3: sure that we that everyone is in the right place
Speaker 3: and that we're dealing with capacity and rich and do
Speaker 3: an outstanding job of that. Will the government continue to
Speaker 3: invest into public safety?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, because although there was a cost.
Speaker 3: Of course incarcerating people and having them in the correction system,
Speaker 3: there is a much greater human cost and even the
Speaker 3: economic costs to have them out in society, creating with
Speaker 3: victims and they have it that they create and the
Speaker 3: trail of tears that are often sitting behind that behavior
Speaker 3: and that from offending well.
Speaker 1: Critics argue that prioritizing longer sentences I see does not
Speaker 1: actually reduce reoffending rates. How would you respond to that.
Speaker 3: Well, the only way you're going to reduce reoffending rates
Speaker 3: is when those offenders.
Speaker 2: Genuinely want to change. They genuinely want to.
Speaker 3: Embrace making good decisions. They genuinely want to embrace and
Speaker 3: see what opportunity just for them in this country. They
Speaker 3: genuinely want to embrace the training that is offered and
Speaker 3: the support that's offered them to come back and reintegrate
Speaker 3: with society in a positive way. Ultimately, that is how
Speaker 3: your drive change is each individual wanting to make those
Speaker 3: changes in their lives and not wanting to make bad
Speaker 3: decisions and make allse excuses for those fair decisions.
Speaker 2: All that we can do is.
Speaker 3: A country, in the state is provide them with the
Speaker 3: mechanisms be able.
Speaker 2: To do that. And I know that we've got a
Speaker 2: big focus.
Speaker 3: In fact, we put seventy million dollars additional money into
Speaker 3: rehabilitation programs in our correction services so that we give
Speaker 3: the ability of the best fighting charge and when they
Speaker 3: do come out, they do make good decision. But ultimately, Chelsea,
Speaker 3: it comes down to personal responsibility.
Speaker 2: It comes down to each one.
Speaker 3: Of those individuals wanting to make change, and until they do,
Speaker 3: until they actually want to make change. In my view
Speaker 3: and my opinion and my experience, you can throw all
Speaker 3: the goodwill, all the programs, and all the investment you
Speaker 3: want at those people.
Speaker 2: They will not change until they want to.
Speaker 4: As I've said before, gangs are not nice people. Minison Minture,
Speaker 4: Minister Goldsmith and I campaigned on cracking down on gangs
Speaker 4: and making their life as uncomfortable as possible, and that
Speaker 4: is exactly why we have passed the laws. We have
Speaker 4: to ban all gang patches and insignia in public places
Speaker 4: to empower the police to stop criminal gangs from associating
Speaker 4: and communicating with each other, enabling the courts to issue
Speaker 4: non consulting orders to gang members, and we're ensuring that
Speaker 4: greater weight as given to gang membership at sentencing as well,
Speaker 4: enabling the courts to an act even more severe punishments.
Speaker 1: I remember when you first became police minister, you actually
Speaker 1: offered up you know, you were offering up people your
Speaker 1: personal phone number to see you know, if you do
Speaker 1: want to say, leave a gang, I will personally help you.
Speaker 1: Has anyone taken.
Speaker 4: You up on that offer?
Speaker 2: No? I haven't had any. I guess you're right that
Speaker 2: I have.
Speaker 3: I've headed out my number two gang members that have
Speaker 3: indicated to me that they do want to lead change,
Speaker 3: they do want to make change, especially those gang members
Speaker 3: with families, so that we've because you know, the most
Speaker 3: important thing we can do is break that into generational
Speaker 3: gang membership that impacts so negatively on the children that
Speaker 3: are born into that environment, you know. So yes, of
Speaker 3: course I'm on standby always to help those that genuinely
Speaker 3: want to make change, especially those with children.
Speaker 2: But the flip side of it is is policemeness.
Speaker 3: So I've also been very clear that to help affect
Speaker 3: that change, if we have to make it very difficult
Speaker 3: to be a game member in New Zealan, to be
Speaker 3: part of organized crime, to be part of a group
Speaker 3: that inflicts a massive disproportionate with out of palm on
Speaker 3: our communities. We're going to continue to do that as well,
Speaker 3: and the police are being very effective of doing that.
Speaker 1: How do you reckon the gang patch band's been going.
Speaker 2: It's been hugely successful, it's been very effective. The feedback.
Speaker 3: I've just come from a public meeting right now where
Speaker 3: the feedback and the public's been extremely positive and the
Speaker 3: frontline police office themselves are really enjoying having those powers
Speaker 3: so they can reassert themselves and the public can see
Speaker 3: that our police are controlling the streets and not be
Speaker 3: in that awful position that we were three years ago
Speaker 3: where the gangs. We're controlling the streets where they're coming
Speaker 3: out and taking over public places and timidating them from
Speaker 3: the public, taking over our provincial towns where they were
Speaker 3: shutting down public roads in the public pultn't move Pidston
Speaker 3: Gusiness School. You haven't seen here that in the last
Speaker 3: two years because the police have been so effective and
Speaker 3: putting together gang disruption units and making sure that they're
Speaker 3: proactive and using the new gang legislation. You know, it's
Speaker 3: a good thing that people don't see gang pictures around
Speaker 3: anymore because they're quite silly designed the skier and interiminates people.
Speaker 1: So we'll move on to your capacity as Minister for
Speaker 1: Ethnic Communities, and I know that this is one that
Speaker 1: you probably haven't been asked about as often as your
Speaker 1: your breadth of other portfolios, I suppose, But in that
Speaker 1: capacity you condemned the Destiny Church march against foreign religions
Speaker 1: that was back in June. It's pretty bone chilling to
Speaker 1: see such a display in New Zealand and on our
Speaker 1: streets here. Do you think what's happening overseas? And I'm
Speaker 1: thinking of those images of you know, Nazis walking down
Speaker 1: streets in Melbourne, for example, Do you think that's spilling
Speaker 1: over slowly to New Zealand and are you worried?
Speaker 3: Well, I've working really hard as Minister if the Community
Speaker 3: to fortify itself. There's a company and we've got you know,
Speaker 3: we've got such diversity in our country. We've got leaders
Speaker 3: in every single one of our ethnic communities and our
Speaker 3: faith and religious leaders that completely bind to.
Speaker 2: The fact that we should always protect what is so.
Speaker 3: Fundamentally important to democracy, and that is the freedom protest
Speaker 3: and the freedom of speech. But we can do that
Speaker 3: in a peaceful and tolerant way. And so a big
Speaker 3: part of what I've been doing as Minister of Communities,
Speaker 3: it's working across all of our communities, all of our
Speaker 3: faith leaders, reinforcing that message around social cohesion, making sure
Speaker 3: that we don't see that type of violence start to
Speaker 3: wash up on our own shores here in New Zealand.
Speaker 3: Be mindful of the fact that we will see that
Speaker 3: we've seen so much conflict and the vision around the
Speaker 3: world at the moment that we've got to work extra
Speaker 3: hard and making sure that if we have a community
Speaker 3: and if we have a community in New Zealand that
Speaker 3: feels unsafe or is veehicful, that we rep support around
Speaker 3: them and do that we can to make sure that
Speaker 3: we deal with that as part.
Speaker 1: Of this portfolio. And I guess your role as Police
Speaker 1: minister as well, have you received any advice from your
Speaker 1: Australian counterparts about what the stark rise in this kind
Speaker 1: of happening in Victoria.
Speaker 3: No, I haven't, but we can all see it and
Speaker 3: I had been out to Victoria recently. I was out
Speaker 3: there a month ago with our.
Speaker 2: Permissioner for the for the service of the plan.
Speaker 3: Victorian police officers out there, but you can see it
Speaker 3: out of the streets.
Speaker 2: And of course yes I.
Speaker 3: Came out and condemned Brian Tummocky and the Destiny pursh
Speaker 3: because they have a right to get out there and
Speaker 3: the freedom to protest like everyone does. But that turned
Speaker 3: into really what everyone considered was over violence. When you
Speaker 3: start ripping flags, specifically targeting different communities and stabbing them
Speaker 3: that scares people, that is actually frightening, and so they
Speaker 3: should actually reflect on the way that they are carrying
Speaker 3: out those protests. And that applies to any group in
Speaker 3: New general. There's a way to be able to get
Speaker 3: out there protests, to get your messapacity from without resorting
Speaker 3: this sort of over violent acts and the ripping and
Speaker 3: burning the flags and trying to scare people.
Speaker 5: There is aspects of speech which should not be allowed.
Speaker 5: For example, people who say you should kill Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 5: She's a very bad person and she deserves it. You
Speaker 5: probably have to edit this out. I mean, that's that's
Speaker 5: my ringtime, all right, that would be wrong and it's
Speaker 5: a horrible thing to say, and arguably incitement. There are
Speaker 5: legitimate restrictions on speech, But what's not a legitimate restriction
Speaker 5: on speech is saying you can't say that because it's
Speaker 5: hateful or it will offend someone or hurt someone's feelings.
Speaker 5: Because as soon as you give someone in society the
Speaker 5: power to enforce that, it becomes impossible to restrain that power.
Speaker 1: Do you think there needs to be better laws in
Speaker 1: place that clearly outlines I guess what determines free speech
Speaker 1: and what determines hate speech, perhaps because that's a really
Speaker 1: tricky area, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yes, And we shouldn't go down that rabbit hole. That's
Speaker 2: a whole other Well, it is, it is, and the
Speaker 2: reality of it is is.
Speaker 3: That we must protect the freedom to the freet of
Speaker 3: a speech in this country because the minute you try.
Speaker 2: To start to unfringe on that, where do you start?
Speaker 2: Where He's gone?
Speaker 3: And we all have the right to exercise our free speech.
Speaker 3: Destiny Church chose to exercise their right pre speech in
Speaker 3: the way that they did, and I chose to exercise
Speaker 3: my right to pre speech by coming out condemning what
Speaker 3: they did.
Speaker 1: What's been your biggest achievement in any of your portfolio's
Speaker 1: while in governments so far?
Speaker 2: Ah, Look, that's that's a really good question.
Speaker 3: Look, I'm very proud of the work that we're doing
Speaker 3: and the way that our police force has responded to
Speaker 3: our new set of priorities when we came into government.
Speaker 3: I just think the work they're doing, it's quite still
Speaker 3: the outstanding, the anecdotal feedback I get from the public,
Speaker 3: the results that we've seen starting to float through. You know,
Speaker 3: I'm just so proud of what they're doing. And what
Speaker 3: they're achieving emergency men management. You know, I've had nineteen
Speaker 3: local States emergency since i'veig Minister. We are making fundamental
Speaker 3: change in the way that we look at and approach
Speaker 3: these things.
Speaker 2: We've had report after report after.
Speaker 3: Our national States Emergency highlighting the issues that we need
Speaker 3: to change.
Speaker 2: We're doing that. We've got an investment being coming through
Speaker 2: that back to Cabinet.
Speaker 3: We've got new legislation that will provide us a solid
Speaker 3: platform as a country who operates from corrections. Look, without
Speaker 3: a doubt, I am so proud of our correction Service.
Speaker 3: All of our officers that are either in a directions
Speaker 3: facility or out in the community doing community related corrections work.
Speaker 2: With you know, up to twenty five to thirty thousand
Speaker 2: people at any one time.
Speaker 3: That is such a difficult, challenging job, and they're dealing
Speaker 3: with some of the most violent and difficult people that
Speaker 3: we have in society, and there's a tens of thousands
Speaker 3: of positive actions every week. My big focus there is WHAT'SIP.
Speaker 3: We've been the delivery of the rehabilitation and an officer
Speaker 3: of station.
Speaker 2: Doing great work.
Speaker 3: They've launched two products in the last months that to
Speaker 3: trials that are going that are very effective.
Speaker 2: The expect to report back on one of those sports
Speaker 2: and wreck. You know, that's that's a.
Speaker 1: Good I forgot about that one. You've got your juggling
Speaker 1: so many hats, Mark, do you sleep, yes, occasionally, so
Speaker 1: you must be all over the place.
Speaker 2: I've got a great team, and I'm very lucky.
Speaker 3: And I've got a team that's been med the entire
Speaker 3: two years and and I could not do them do that,
Speaker 3: do it without them, And they there right behind me
Speaker 3: the whole time, and they deserve huge recognition and and
Speaker 3: and great chief executives and and you know, so you know,
Speaker 3: I'm very very lucky. And that's that's enabling, and it
Speaker 3: makes a minister's job much easier. I'm just trying to think,
Speaker 3: you've listed out there. We've got police, We've got correction,
Speaker 3: we've got the community.
Speaker 2: It's the Yeah. I mean that they're all just they're
Speaker 2: all fantastic agencies.
Speaker 3: And you know, I have the privilege of having a
Speaker 3: front row seat seen the ten thousands of positive actions.
Speaker 2: I get reports every.
Speaker 3: Week of the outstanding work that our friction cops is
Speaker 3: still is at mounted in prison. A couple of weeks
Speaker 3: ago they saved the life of the prisoner. Like I said,
Speaker 3: I've been at the recently at the Police awards ceremonies,
Speaker 3: and it's and and and Sadly, the only time that
Speaker 3: you often hear about Richard or Police are any of
Speaker 3: these is when there's a negative story running in the media.
Speaker 2: And that's life and I sit that.
Speaker 3: But but you know what, there's just so they do
Speaker 3: so much positive stuff for us in the country, and
Speaker 3: I just think we should be so thankful that that
Speaker 3: we got them.
Speaker 1: Have you started thinking about next year's election yet or
Speaker 1: do you even have time to think that far ahead?
Speaker 3: No, not, not really because there was so much going on.
Speaker 3: They're still we're still doing some major reforms, you know.
Speaker 3: I think we start thinking about the election as we
Speaker 3: move into next year. But right at the moment, especially
Speaker 3: with emergency management. I'll be down to South Orlands for
Speaker 3: last week, you know, with the response and then the
Speaker 3: recovery is just supportant with the response with rot in
Speaker 3: the middle of there.
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Mark say, thank you, Chelsea, thank
Speaker 2: you for having me on.
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 1: at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
Speaker 1: produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also
Speaker 1: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page
Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune
Speaker 1: in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.