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Speaker 1: So the government has announced a restructure of the seven

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Speaker 1: Crown Research Institute, so they're going to be merged into

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Speaker 1: three public research organizations and a fourth public research organization

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Speaker 1: will be established to focus on advanced technology. But the

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Speaker 1: government agency Callahan Innovation will be shut down as part

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Speaker 1: of these reforms. So is this good or bad? The

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Speaker 1: shutdown of a innovative agency, the Callahan Innovation Agency. Someone

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Speaker 1: who may very well know is the former Chief Science

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Speaker 1: Advisor to the Prime Minister, Sir Peter Gluckman, who joins

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Speaker 1: you now. Hello, Peter, Hi Andrew. You've just done this

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Speaker 1: review and the report was released today and what did

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Speaker 1: you find?

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Speaker 2: Well, the review looked at the whole architectures on science

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Speaker 2: and innovation system and make the set of recommendations from

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Speaker 2: what happens at the level of cabinet right through to

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Speaker 2: the whole of the sciences and the whole of the

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Speaker 2: innovation system, and then the bits that the cabinets made

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Speaker 2: decisions about already. I would say that about a eighty

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Speaker 2: to ninety percent alignment between our report and what government's

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Speaker 2: decided it. So I'm very impressed with the decisions they've made.

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Speaker 1: But it is fair to say that When it was

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Speaker 1: first suggested that there were going to be these changes

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Speaker 1: to these science funds, there was a bit of a

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Speaker 1: shock and horror because people believe that we need to

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Speaker 1: fund science publicly as well because science is good and

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Speaker 1: science can then be monetized if it is good science.

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Speaker 1: So are these moves by the government going to help science?

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Speaker 2: Yes they are, But I mean, I mean strategy must

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Speaker 2: proceed operations and what this first report about and how

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Speaker 2: the government's responded to it's about getting the architecture of

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Speaker 2: the system right. We are obviously working and we have

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Speaker 2: a second phase of our work to do, which then

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Speaker 2: government must consider, which will deal with more of the

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Speaker 2: operational details.

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Speaker 1: Does your report find that more government investment needs to

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Speaker 1: go into science, not less.

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Speaker 2: Of course. I mean, I think the internetal evidence on

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Speaker 2: that is robust, and I think our report RESPEC makes

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Speaker 2: that point, But it also says we've got to get

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Speaker 2: the architecture and the basics of it right if we're

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Speaker 2: going to maximize these yis advantage from knowledge. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I'm very pleased, for example, that we're going to have

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Speaker 2: that the areas advanced technology which have been not well

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Speaker 2: invested in New Zealand and now identified as a priority.

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Speaker 1: Good. Yes, And you've been watching the sector closely, and

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Speaker 1: you've been involved in and you've been advising the Prime

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Speaker 1: Minister and so you know all this stuff. The government

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Speaker 1: wants to make sure the four new organizations are spending

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Speaker 1: taxpayers money the best way possible to grow the economy.

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Speaker 1: So in your experience watching the sector, was this not

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Speaker 1: happening already?

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Speaker 2: Well, there were a number of barriers. There were significant

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Speaker 2: barriers which our report described in some detail, which the

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Speaker 2: governments also picked up in its announcements, between knowledge being

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Speaker 2: generated in universities and CRIS and knowledge being able to

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Speaker 2: be exploited. There are issues over what we call technology transfer,

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Speaker 2: their issues over intellectual property, the whole lot of issues there,

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Speaker 2: and we've emphasized and the report and some of the

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Speaker 2: government decisions are about actually addressing those barriers. That's key. Secondly,

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Speaker 2: we've actually had a rather incowit public research system where

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Speaker 2: there's lots of duplication competition between CRIS where because of

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Speaker 2: the model they've had to operate under the incentives they've

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Speaker 2: worked to and I'm not criticizing the boards, they do

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Speaker 2: work to the incentives they have. We've got duplication, we've

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Speaker 2: got gaps, we haven't got a strategic overside over the system,

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Speaker 2: whether it cannot possibly be the best way to spend

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Speaker 2: the taxpayers money to advance New Zealand's interests.

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Speaker 1: And having four organizations, will there still be enough competition

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Speaker 1: between them just to write them up?

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Speaker 2: Well, what are we competing for. We're trying to actually

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Speaker 2: develop knowledge which then gets translated to use by the public,

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Speaker 2: by companies and by the government. The government itself is

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Speaker 2: the big user of knowledge. And we've got to be

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Speaker 2: careful what we're talking about here. We want high quality

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Speaker 2: and we want competition to ensure the quality of the research.

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Speaker 2: But do we need three cris all doing aquaculture for

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Speaker 2: example or whatever. Far better to get critical mass so

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Speaker 2: we can do things well, properly and quickly.

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Speaker 1: So from you looking at it, the four organizations aren't

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Speaker 1: going to be stepping on each other's feet.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's be key, there is really only we're talking

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Speaker 2: about two really too, because ESR never really functioned in

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Speaker 2: the same way as other as other cris. ESR has

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Speaker 2: always been a support of the health system and the

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Speaker 2: police system as a service laboratory with some R and

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Speaker 2: D capacity it needs to be managed separately because it's

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Speaker 2: a client, either police and the client and the health ministry. Okay,

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Speaker 2: I saw in a say that's different. The Advanced Technology

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Speaker 2: Institute is new. We have nothing in that space at

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Speaker 2: the present time. And what we've done, what the government

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Speaker 2: has done is aggregated and there need to be something

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Speaker 2: about the detail the CRIS that are in the life sciences,

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Speaker 2: the CRIS and the environmental sciences to work better together.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's a logical development.

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Speaker 1: We also saw in his State of the Nation's speech

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Speaker 1: that Christopher Laxa was saying that scientists should be motivated

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Speaker 1: to come up with good innovations by being able to

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Speaker 1: share in the monetization of those innovations going forward. Is

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Speaker 1: this a good thing?

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Speaker 2: Well, at the moment is an extraordinary different University staff

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Speaker 2: in most of the unit I think in all our

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Speaker 2: universities can benefit when IP is monetarized in different ways,

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Speaker 2: but CRI staff are not. Now is that fear? Is

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Speaker 2: that appropriate? In most parts of the world, all researchers

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Speaker 2: can benefit from the f intellectual efforts. The incentive is

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Speaker 2: not there if you cannot get a benefit from making

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Speaker 2: development discoveries and an entrepreneurship. If you look at Israel's, Singapore, Finland, Denmark, Ireland,

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Speaker 2: every small country we compare ourself to it does this

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Speaker 2: far better than we do. It's also problematic and that

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Speaker 2: New Zealand has far more of its research activity in

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Speaker 2: research institutes than as a relative proportion of the total

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Speaker 2: research exercise as other countries. And all of these things

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Speaker 2: have been factors that lead to New Zealand being not

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Speaker 2: as productive as it could possibly be in the knowledge world.

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Speaker 2: And remember, and we all know that the future of

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Speaker 2: every country and the advanced world requires it to be

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Speaker 2: at the frontiers of knowledge.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's very good news that we've still got your

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Speaker 1: eyes casting your eyes over everything. That's very reassuring. And

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Speaker 1: i'd like to thank you for your time today and

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Speaker 1: your experience and obviously your knowledge. Sir Peter Blackman, thank

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Speaker 1: you so very very much.

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Speaker 2: For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive listen live to

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Speaker 2: news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow

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Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio.