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Speaker 1: The Chief Onwardsman, says he has serious concerns about human

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Speaker 1: rights abuses at New Zealand's most secure prison. He's released

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Speaker 1: a report on the prisoners of the Extreme Risk Unit,

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Speaker 1: which is an Aukland based prison that houses their christ

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Speaker 1: Church mosque shooter and other serious criminals. According to the report,

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Speaker 1: conditions in the unit are cruel, inhumane and in breach

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Speaker 1: of the United Nations Convention against Torture. Peter Bowsher's the

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Speaker 1: Chief Onwardsman, is with me this afternoon.

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Speaker 2: Good afternoon, Good afternoon to you. Ryan.

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Speaker 1: What exactly are we doing that so bad?

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Speaker 2: Well, what we're doing is this. In twenty nineteen, this

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Speaker 2: special unit was created and it has a total of

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Speaker 2: eighteen cells. It's unlike anything else you'll see in the

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Speaker 2: department's corrections in that it largely self manages, with a

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Speaker 2: minimum oversight from corrections itself. So it practices these things, Ryan,

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Speaker 2: solitary consignment, twenty three hours in the cell each day,

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Speaker 2: with one hour out of the cell, and in a

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Speaker 2: small concrete yard, no contact with the outside world, no

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Speaker 2: contact with anyone other than prison officers, and significantly no

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Speaker 2: attempt at rehabilitation. It's pretty stark. It's pretty dark and

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Speaker 2: it's pretty awful.

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Speaker 1: So that I guess the lessoners don't shoot up a mosque.

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Speaker 2: Whatever one says about why people are in there, the

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Speaker 2: fact is, in New Zealand, we've signed up for minimum standards,

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Speaker 2: we're not reaching those standards. We say we'll do one

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Speaker 2: thing and we don't. And what concerns me is that

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Speaker 2: that's just not good enough, and it's not the way

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Speaker 2: I would have thought New Zealanders would want this rather

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Speaker 2: dark part of our prison system operating.

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Speaker 1: How many hours per day should the let's take the

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Speaker 1: christ Stretch munstrata for example, how many hours per day

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Speaker 1: outside or out of cell time should they get?

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Speaker 2: Well, let's not talk at any particular person. What I'd

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Speaker 2: prefer to do is say that this unit of eighteen

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Speaker 2: cells and up to eighteen prisoners has prisoners of all

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Speaker 2: types of different risks, for instance, remand prisoners who haven't

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Speaker 2: even been sentenced. So we can't just say that everyone

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Speaker 2: the same, anyone.

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Speaker 1: In the unit. How long should they be getting They.

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Speaker 2: Should have a minimum of one hour of fresh air,

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Speaker 2: hopefully sunshine, and exercise a minimum of one hour out

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Speaker 2: of their cell each day. And when I've been through

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Speaker 2: the so called exercise areas that are joined their cells. Ryan,

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Speaker 2: They're just reading an extension of their own cells there

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Speaker 2: just up to the prison of themselves. No one else

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Speaker 2: is in this little exercise area. But it's the solitary

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Speaker 2: nature of the confinement. They are just there on their

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Speaker 2: own all day and every day.

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Speaker 1: Are we going to rehabilitate these people? And if not,

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Speaker 1: why should we be paying much in the way of

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Speaker 1: attention at all?

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Speaker 2: Most prisoners, most prisoners there are one or two only

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Speaker 2: in this category, will come out of prison and have

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Speaker 2: to mix in the community. I just I despair at

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Speaker 2: the sort of person they're going to be when they

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Speaker 2: come out, when they've had no socialization, and when one

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Speaker 2: would have thought their mental state the solitary confinement is

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Speaker 2: becoming fairly desperate. So I would have hoped that rehabilitation

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Speaker 2: would still be on corrections radar, not just mere confinement.

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Speaker 2: In putting in pens.

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Speaker 1: This is a resourcing issue. You know, where are where

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Speaker 1: are we best to spend our money? I mean, isn't

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Speaker 1: this the last place you would put resources just because

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Speaker 1: of the fact that most of it, well, as you say,

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Speaker 1: some of them might even be getting out.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but when someone comes out of prison and immediately

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Speaker 2: causes a major serious crime. Think of all the victims

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Speaker 2: and all the damage that flows from that. I just

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Speaker 2: want to mark the point that investment in getting it

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Speaker 2: right is not just humane, it's actually protective of society

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's did you go Did you go

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Speaker 1: inside to this unit? Did you?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I've been on twice.

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Speaker 1: Did you talk to the terb Brendan Tarran.

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Speaker 2: I've talked to a range of people inside the unit,

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Speaker 2: and I'm specifically not going to single out a particular

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Speaker 2: person I talk to now. I'm not trying to fob

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Speaker 2: you off. I just want to keep certain people out

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Speaker 2: of the equation, out the unit.

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Speaker 1: I mean, these are the worst of the worst in

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Speaker 1: New Zealand. What are they? What do they say? Do

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Speaker 1: they do you try and speak to them like a

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Speaker 1: normal person?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean they are pretty normal, normal from.

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Speaker 1: The point of view people. You know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: And they're not normal to us?

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Speaker 2: No, No, normal from the point of view of me.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I thought you were saying, are they normal

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Speaker 2: to talk to? That? Is am I able to converse reasony?

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Speaker 2: The answer of years? Look, I don't, I don't detract

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Speaker 2: it all from the henous nature of the crime. I'm

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Speaker 2: talking of one person to another on what they say

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Speaker 2: to me, and I just think it's worth repeating two comments.

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Speaker 2: The confinement makes me feel I am dead, said one prisoner.

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Speaker 2: Another it's all darkness and despair, no hope. Another prisoner

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Speaker 2: I talk to all through glass walls and all through

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Speaker 2: that special system said to me that part of his

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Speaker 2: keeping a libraryutine is he had run a half marathon

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Speaker 2: in his cell, a half marathon in his cell. And

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Speaker 2: I tried to work out how you would actually do that,

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Speaker 2: but he assured me that he did. I mean, this

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Speaker 2: is the desperate links we are forcing these guys to

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Speaker 2: go to to survive, and I just I just want

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Speaker 2: to pose the question, is that what we want prison

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Speaker 2: system in New Zealand.

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Speaker 1: Peter Bosher, thank you very much your time, the chief

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Speaker 1: on boardsman. A lot of people would say absolutely yes.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you have this quote, all darkness, despair

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Speaker 1: and no hope, I mean that's how the victims feel. Right.

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Speaker 1: On the other hand, if the person is going to

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Speaker 1: get out of prison, part of me thinks, you know, well,

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Speaker 1: we can't just have them, you know, running half marathons

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Speaker 1: in a dark cell all day. That's not very productive,

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Speaker 1: is it. For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen

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