1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: Nine two ninety two is the text number. Standard text 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: fees apply. Now. The Government is tightening its new anti 3 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: stalking law as a result of feedback from the Select 4 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: Committee process. The stalking law can now be triggered after 5 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:17,639 Speaker 1: two specified stalking acts within two years. Initially, the bill 6 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: required three acts within one year. Paul Goldsmith is the 7 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:24,240 Speaker 1: Justice Minister. Hey Paul, hi, heither? 8 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 2: How are you your house? Yeah? 9 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: I was going to say, was that the sadness of 10 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: an Auckland are just there that we heard? How much 11 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: has yours gone back. 12 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 2: By thirteen percent? 13 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 1: Of the jeeze some electric? Yeah, we've all had a 14 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 1: looking and there's there's the lone person looking in from Wellington. 15 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: We've identified you. Paul. Listen, why have you changed how 16 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: many stalking acts you need? 17 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,160 Speaker 2: Well, look, we listened to the very strong feedback through 18 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 2: the Select Committee process and we originally introduced the bill. 19 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 2: As you say, we're three offenses in twelve months, and 20 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 2: the strong feedback was that actually that's too high a 21 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 2: burden and higher than the existing sort of harassment. I 22 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 2: think you probably asked me questions about that when we 23 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 2: introduced it, and so we've taken stock, thought about and 24 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 2: agreed to the change fair enough? 25 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: What is stalking though? I mean because because what I 26 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: want to I just I looked at your definition of 27 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: stalking and I thought just a little broad, isn't it? 28 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: Like your annoying boyfriend who you're trying to break up 29 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: with could could basically be accused of stalking if they 30 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: send you two texts. 31 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 2: Well, yes, but it's got to be with an intention 32 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 2: element to cause distress. And look, we've got legislation in 33 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 2: place at the moment around harassment, and that the strong 34 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 2: argument put forward was from the particular campaigners on this 35 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 2: billboard that didn't capture all elements of the stalking that 36 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 2: goes on. And what we've seen is plenty of evidence 37 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 2: that certain circumstances, these sort of stalking behaviors lead to 38 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 2: more serious or can lead to more serious outcomes. And 39 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 2: so and we're all aware of, you know, terrible examples 40 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 2: of that. And so the purpose of this new provision 41 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 2: is to broaden that net and provide opportunities for the police. 42 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 2: Of course, every prosecution has to you know, the police 43 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 2: have a discretion about how to whether to prosecute particular cases, 44 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 2: and so it's about getting that threshold right and then 45 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 2: providing more opportunities to keep people safe, which is what. 46 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: We're all So, as you say, it has to be 47 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: with the intention to cause distress. But let's say you're 48 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: breaking up with your boyfriend, you've had a terrible breakup 49 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: or something like that, and they seen you two texts 50 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 1: within the space of two weeks telling you that you're 51 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: a terrible person and you know, hopefully hopefully someone will 52 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: break your heart, blah blah blah whatever, you know, the 53 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: usual stuff. Wouldn't that be then classified as stalking because 54 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: it's intended to cause distress? 55 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, as we said, if that's saying three 56 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 2: texts before, it might have been as well. And so, 57 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:03,239 Speaker 2: but the broad sort of defenses in the act still remain. 58 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 2: And also that's a you know, that's something. 59 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,359 Speaker 1: I'm trying to get. Yeah, the point I'm trying to 60 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:12,519 Speaker 1: get to isn't this like sort of famously hard to 61 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: pin down? Stalking hard to define. 62 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 2: It is, And so you can't design any law that's 63 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 2: perfect in that sense, and everything relies on the discretions 64 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 2: of the of the prosecutors and then ultimately the court 65 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 2: to bring a common sense sort of approach to it. 66 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 2: But what we're providing with this legislation and responding to 67 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 2: is a very real sense that the seriousness of the 68 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 2: Act wasn't being properly captured by the laws that we 69 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 2: had in place up to this point. And what we're 70 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 2: doing is providing another sort of legislative tool to be 71 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 2: able to deal with situations. And so that's that's the approach. 72 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: Is there a way I'm I'm just thinking about this 73 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: Michael Forbes case which you guys are dealing with at 74 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: the moment. Is there a way to make it unlawful 75 00:03:57,720 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: for somebody? And do we want to make it unlawful 76 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: for somebody need to take photographs of women, you know, 77 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: with their butts in the air in the gym? 78 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I hesitate to sort of comment on 79 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 2: a particular sort of case in the public mind, but 80 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 2: I think you know what we're talking about there in 81 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 2: the broader senses, you know, very difficult areas to set 82 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 2: hard and fast rules about. And so what this legislation 83 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 2: has focused on things that are clearly intended to injure 84 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 2: or cause real distress to people. And what we're worried 85 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 2: about is those extreme examples where we're seeing a pattern 86 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 2: develop which ultimately leads to a violent act and we're 87 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 2: trying to create a men the legislation so we're able 88 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 2: to catch those circumstances earlier and to avoid victims. I mean, 89 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 2: if you strip it back away, what are we trying 90 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 2: to do in justice? We want to have fewer victims 91 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 2: of serious violent crimes and this is one tool. It's 92 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,799 Speaker 2: not going to fix every situation, but it may save 93 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 2: some lives and that would be a very good thing. Cool. 94 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 1: Hey, Paul, thank you as always appreciated. That's Paul Goldsmith, 95 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: Justice Minister. 96 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 2: For more from Hither Duplessy, Allen Drive, listen live to 97 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 2: news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow 98 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio.