WEBVTT - Reissue: McSkimming scandal: How there is hope for survivors in those who spoke up 0:00:19.059 --> 0:00:22.139 Kyota at Chelsea Daniels here, host of the Front Page. 0:00:22.379 --> 0:00:25.299 We're taking away breakover summer, but to help build the gap, 0:00:25.579 --> 0:00:28.699 we're re issuing some of our most significant episodes of 0:00:28.739 --> 0:00:32.019 twenty twenty five on behalf of the Front Page team. 0:00:32.138 --> 0:00:34.619 Thanks for listening and we look forward to being back 0:00:34.659 --> 0:00:44.099 with you on January twelfth, twenty twenty six. Kyota, I'm 0:00:44.179 --> 0:00:47.459 Chelsea Daniels, and this is the Front Page, a daily 0:00:47.579 --> 0:00:49.458 podcast presented by. 0:00:49.259 --> 0:00:50.539 The New Zealand Herald. 0:00:53.859 --> 0:00:58.659 It's been revealed that police ignored sex allegations against a 0:00:58.779 --> 0:01:04.659 former top cop and instead prosecuted a woman for revenge emails. 0:01:05.139 --> 0:01:09.538 The woman had emailed police, politicians and newsrooms accusing former 0:01:09.579 --> 0:01:14.219 Deputy Police Commissioner Jevin mcskimming of being a sexual predator. 0:01:14.699 --> 0:01:16.179 The Police Watchdog. 0:01:15.699 --> 0:01:19.659 Has released a scathing one hundred and thirty five page 0:01:19.739 --> 0:01:23.859 report into how the allegations were treated and how the 0:01:23.938 --> 0:01:27.938 ambitions of a senior police officer were put above the 0:01:28.019 --> 0:01:32.819 interests of a vulnerable woman. Police Commissioner Richard Chambers has 0:01:32.859 --> 0:01:37.099 said she was ignored and badly let down. He said 0:01:37.219 --> 0:01:40.739 it makes for appolling reading and the conduct of the 0:01:40.779 --> 0:01:45.018 former top brass is inexcusable. He was briefed about the 0:01:45.059 --> 0:01:48.259 situation just two days before he stepped into the role, 0:01:48.659 --> 0:01:52.698 and during the course of the investigation, detectives discovered mcskimming 0:01:52.819 --> 0:01:57.139 had used his work devices to search for pornography, including 0:01:57.179 --> 0:02:01.219 beast reality and child sex exploitation material for at least 0:02:01.299 --> 0:02:04.979 five years. The fifty two year old resigned in disgrace 0:02:05.139 --> 0:02:09.258 and was later charged. He's pleaded guilty last week and 0:02:09.379 --> 0:02:14.019 will be sentenced next month. This whole ordeal has been 0:02:14.299 --> 0:02:19.459 indisputably damaging to one of the most important institutions in 0:02:19.538 --> 0:02:24.339 our country. Later, we'll speak to help Auckland's executive director, 0:02:24.419 --> 0:02:28.899 Catherine McPhillips about how to support anyone who has experienced 0:02:29.059 --> 0:02:33.738 sexual abuse. But first, someone who knows all too well 0:02:33.899 --> 0:02:37.419 what it's like to step up to those in power 0:02:37.619 --> 0:02:41.619 is Louise Nicholas. She alleged police officers raped her as 0:02:41.659 --> 0:02:45.379 a teen in the eighties and this resulted in criminal trials, 0:02:45.459 --> 0:02:48.899 a commission of inquiry and an officer being jailed for 0:02:48.939 --> 0:02:52.499 attempting to pervert the course of justice. She is a 0:02:52.538 --> 0:02:56.699 campaigner for victims of sexual assault and joins us Now 0:02:56.899 --> 0:02:57.859 on the front page. 0:03:00.899 --> 0:03:05.259 First Off Louise. When you heard this news, what was 0:03:05.299 --> 0:03:06.219 your first reaction? 0:03:07.779 --> 0:03:16.379 Oh, just belief and then sadness and then anger and 0:03:16.459 --> 0:03:18.859 a bit of deja booth thrown in amongst it all. 0:03:20.418 --> 0:03:24.899 Yeah, and that deja vuo that would bring back some 0:03:24.939 --> 0:03:27.819 pretty heavy feelings for you hearing about that happening in 0:03:27.858 --> 0:03:29.738 the police force again. 0:03:30.499 --> 0:03:33.419 Yeah, yeah, And I think that's that's what it was. 0:03:33.459 --> 0:03:37.499 That kind of like kicked me back into that time. 0:03:39.099 --> 0:03:46.739 But I soon realized that this is it came across 0:03:46.979 --> 0:03:51.499 ed this time police were actually doing something about it 0:03:52.099 --> 0:03:56.019 and not dragging the chain or dragging it out or 0:03:56.459 --> 0:03:58.499 you know, putting their hands up and saying nah, not 0:03:58.659 --> 0:04:00.939 us sort of thing. They were on too, it being 0:04:01.299 --> 0:04:04.338 straight away as soon as that IPCA report came out, 0:04:04.619 --> 0:04:05.219 it was all on. 0:04:06.059 --> 0:04:09.539 So hearing Richard Chambers and Mark Mitchell speak, was that 0:04:09.659 --> 0:04:12.499 quite a bit different than what you experienced. 0:04:13.219 --> 0:04:17.739 Yeah? Absolutely absolutely. It was like, I wouldn't say a 0:04:18.019 --> 0:04:21.819 breath of fresh air, but it just it gave me. 0:04:22.979 --> 0:04:25.059 It made me feel this is actually going to be 0:04:25.179 --> 0:04:30.099 okay in the long run because they're onto it, they're 0:04:30.139 --> 0:04:35.379 acknowledging the harm, they're acknowledging the survivor they're acknowledging where 0:04:36.179 --> 0:04:40.499 police have gone wrong, you know, with that team that 0:04:40.899 --> 0:04:45.339 covered everything up. So for me, it was this is 0:04:45.379 --> 0:04:50.259 going to be okay, bettersweet pretty much. Yeah. 0:04:50.579 --> 0:04:53.899 When there are questions around public trust in police, I 0:04:53.939 --> 0:04:57.179 suppose the response is usually something like, you know, these 0:04:57.299 --> 0:04:59.899 kind of things happen. That's rotten apples in the basket. 0:05:00.059 --> 0:05:03.179 But the majority, I mean, it'd be hitting the thousands 0:05:03.179 --> 0:05:07.379 of sworn and unsworn police officers mind you pretty hard 0:05:07.419 --> 0:05:08.059 at the moment. 0:05:09.059 --> 0:05:11.419 What's your first thought when you hear statements like that? 0:05:12.779 --> 0:05:16.579 Immediately go to those that are actually doing the work, 0:05:16.939 --> 0:05:19.859 and doing the work really really well to a point 0:05:19.939 --> 0:05:23.179 that you know, this is why our survivors are coming forward. 0:05:24.139 --> 0:05:31.019 It's because of the the empathy, the integrity that take 0:05:31.059 --> 0:05:34.699 the cop hat off and actually be human when they're 0:05:34.699 --> 0:05:37.699 dealing with our survivors that are going through this. You know, 0:05:37.779 --> 0:05:42.619 that just describes this this horror, and you've got a 0:05:43.099 --> 0:05:47.738 copper sitting there in front of them, acknowledging the harm 0:05:48.739 --> 0:05:52.699 and saying we will do what we can and you 0:05:52.779 --> 0:05:55.379 can't be I wish that had happened way back in 0:05:55.419 --> 0:05:58.899 the day, you know, but it is happening. 0:05:58.939 --> 0:06:03.139 Now, the Independent Police Conduct Authority did an investigation, I 0:06:03.179 --> 0:06:07.459 suppose whether the allegations were true, and that's not their 0:06:07.539 --> 0:06:10.099 role here, but it did find police ignored the woman 0:06:10.139 --> 0:06:13.619 at the center of this, delayed the investigation, and accepted 0:06:13.699 --> 0:06:19.059 mixed Skimming's version of versions of events. What message do 0:06:18.859 --> 0:06:22.219 you think that that sends anyone kind of weighing up 0:06:22.259 --> 0:06:24.299 at the moment whether or not to come forward about 0:06:24.379 --> 0:06:25.299 something like this. 0:06:26.579 --> 0:06:29.139 Well, I think what we've got to remember it was 0:06:29.299 --> 0:06:35.539 senior staff that took control of that investigation and when 0:06:35.699 --> 0:06:39.819 somebody from you know, underneath that came in and challenged 0:06:40.179 --> 0:06:43.498 what they were doing. That to me is the hope 0:06:43.539 --> 0:06:46.979 that that New Zealanders need to remember that there's always 0:06:46.979 --> 0:06:50.058 somebody within the New Zealand place. They've got you back. 0:06:50.579 --> 0:06:55.419 They absolutely have. And when I heard that, actually how 0:06:55.459 --> 0:07:00.539 it all unfolded, I thought, yeah, that you've got people 0:07:00.979 --> 0:07:04.019 that aren't the bad eggs, that are the good people 0:07:04.299 --> 0:07:08.459 that are that are helping our communities. And so for 0:07:08.539 --> 0:07:13.379 me it was a revelation of thoughts. 0:07:13.299 --> 0:07:15.299 That something's actually happening. 0:07:15.979 --> 0:07:19.499 Yeah, absolutely, that somebody's actually you know, taking the ball 0:07:19.499 --> 0:07:23.219 by the wounds and bringing the people that are doing 0:07:23.259 --> 0:07:24.539 the bad to account. 0:07:24.859 --> 0:07:27.259 Yeah, I did find sollace in the fact that despite 0:07:27.539 --> 0:07:30.019 I suppose, the efforts to keep this all covered up, 0:07:30.139 --> 0:07:32.659 there were a few staffers who made sure that it 0:07:32.699 --> 0:07:33.579 made the light of day. 0:07:34.539 --> 0:07:38.179 Judith Collins said it herself when she said this was. 0:07:38.219 --> 0:07:41.099 All was some sort of group think going on. 0:07:41.499 --> 0:07:45.859 But there were thankfully at least three people, lower ranked 0:07:45.899 --> 0:07:48.779 people who stood up for what they knew was the 0:07:48.819 --> 0:07:51.059 right thing. And one of them sent this matter of 0:07:51.139 --> 0:07:55.219 the IPCA as a complaint. And without her work and 0:07:55.299 --> 0:07:58.219 their work of the others, this might never have seen the. 0:07:58.259 --> 0:07:58.819 Light of day. 0:07:59.779 --> 0:08:03.619 Do you wish that there were some junior staffers, a 0:08:03.739 --> 0:08:09.419 woman there, lower in the ranks there in your situation. 0:08:10.459 --> 0:08:15.579 Yeah, instead of a reporter what it was, you know, 0:08:15.819 --> 0:08:18.579 And that's what it took somebody within the media to 0:08:20.019 --> 0:08:25.419 acknowledge and investigate and show that there was all this 0:08:25.539 --> 0:08:29.179 corruptness going on and all this harm being done to 0:08:29.219 --> 0:08:33.059 not only the South but to ow many others. And 0:08:33.578 --> 0:08:35.819 he took the ball by the horns and did something 0:08:35.859 --> 0:08:39.899 about it. And it's kind of like it's mirrored with 0:08:40.299 --> 0:08:44.098 the police that you know, the lower ranked police officers 0:08:44.139 --> 0:08:47.619 that did exactly the same thing that is what the 0:08:47.699 --> 0:08:55.179 change has been. They believed without a doubt. Absolutely they 0:08:55.299 --> 0:08:59.179 saw that process and protocol and everything. You know, it's 0:08:59.379 --> 0:09:04.779 standard in how to investigate a disclosure of that type 0:09:05.218 --> 0:09:10.779 and that was just shoved under and yeah, they did everything. 0:09:11.059 --> 0:09:14.978 They questioned why this wasn't happening, why are you doing this? 0:09:15.299 --> 0:09:18.538 And so because of that it brought it to the 0:09:19.059 --> 0:09:21.579 light of day. 0:09:25.498 --> 0:09:27.779 We will continue to do what is needed to ensure 0:09:28.259 --> 0:09:32.978 this does not happen again. Police have also accepted all 0:09:33.019 --> 0:09:37.458 the recommendations in the report. The Police Commissioner will speak 0:09:37.498 --> 0:09:41.978 to that in more details shortly. The New Zealand Police 0:09:42.139 --> 0:09:47.939 enjoys strong public trust and confidence. It is imperative that 0:09:47.978 --> 0:09:52.939 this trust is maintained. That comes with strong action on 0:09:53.059 --> 0:09:57.699 the part of the government. Finally, I do want to 0:09:57.738 --> 0:10:01.338 stress that these adverse findings should not be seen as 0:10:01.338 --> 0:10:04.218 a reflection on our police service as a whole. 0:10:07.419 --> 0:10:09.578 When you look back at what you've been through with 0:10:09.659 --> 0:10:15.618 the police in the past, obviously from the eighties until 0:10:15.618 --> 0:10:20.978 the early two thousands up until now, and you now 0:10:21.098 --> 0:10:26.659 work with police, you with the sexual assault advocacy work 0:10:26.699 --> 0:10:31.738 that you do, did you personally find it difficult to 0:10:32.059 --> 0:10:35.458 regain that trust well for the police. 0:10:36.179 --> 0:10:38.738 And in the beginning, absolutely I didn't trust them, and 0:10:39.139 --> 0:10:42.498 I told them that to these basis, especially going through 0:10:42.978 --> 0:10:46.619 the thought process and that you know, they were wanting 0:10:46.659 --> 0:10:49.458 me to make another statement to do this, and I 0:10:49.578 --> 0:10:52.459 kept saying, no, I'm not doing that. I don't trust you, 0:10:52.539 --> 0:10:59.219 bastards was my words. But it's been over. It was 0:10:59.259 --> 0:11:01.699 a huge learning for myself and it was a conclusion 0:11:01.738 --> 0:11:08.059 that I came to that it wasn't the New Zealand 0:11:08.098 --> 0:11:11.618 police that hurt me. It was individuals with them. And 0:11:11.659 --> 0:11:14.458 it's the same for this as well. And that's why 0:11:14.498 --> 0:11:18.019 I'm advocating on you know, on behalf of those police 0:11:18.019 --> 0:11:20.979 people that I work alongside, that my team works alongside 0:11:21.059 --> 0:11:24.778 every single day right across the country, is that we're 0:11:24.819 --> 0:11:28.139 advocating for you because we know that you're doing the 0:11:28.139 --> 0:11:31.179 best that you can for our survivors. And so it 0:11:31.379 --> 0:11:36.459 wasn't you as an individual who did what that senior 0:11:36.779 --> 0:11:41.138 do up the ranks. And that's what people need to understand. 0:11:41.539 --> 0:11:46.819 Don't define what we're skimming and those others did and say, well, 0:11:46.939 --> 0:11:49.539 every cops are saying no, no, it's not. 0:11:50.458 --> 0:11:53.659 If there is someone out there right now struggling and 0:11:54.659 --> 0:11:59.339 they want to come forward with any allegation something's happened 0:11:59.379 --> 0:11:59.658 to them. 0:11:59.819 --> 0:12:02.899 They've survived something horrific and they. 0:12:04.498 --> 0:12:08.098 Felt knocked back by what's happened, and when the story 0:12:08.139 --> 0:12:10.458 came out, they kind of took a step back. I 0:12:10.498 --> 0:12:13.659 suppose what would you tell them to take that couple 0:12:13.659 --> 0:12:14.539 of steps forward? 0:12:15.618 --> 0:12:18.419 Yep, please take that couple of steps forward. There are 0:12:18.458 --> 0:12:22.739 agents these right across organizations right across New Zealand that 0:12:23.019 --> 0:12:26.339 can support you. And the core thing that we have 0:12:26.899 --> 0:12:30.858 worked hard alongside police with is how do we get 0:12:30.899 --> 0:12:33.939 that first disclosure? How do we get our survivors to 0:12:34.139 --> 0:12:38.978 trust in the police and in the process. And it's 0:12:39.098 --> 0:12:42.098 quite simple. It's like a meet and greet. So we 0:12:42.618 --> 0:12:46.419 meet with a detective who is in the adult Sexual 0:12:46.419 --> 0:12:49.458 Assault team or in the child protection team or you know, 0:12:50.059 --> 0:12:54.539 and we have that conversation. And we have done that 0:12:54.899 --> 0:12:58.779 hundreds of times, and not one survivors turned around and said, 0:12:58.819 --> 0:13:03.138 I'm not doing this Because it's about bringing together and 0:13:03.218 --> 0:13:08.179 helping each other. The police officer and the survivor and 0:13:08.338 --> 0:13:12.059 the FARNO actually understand what this process is all about. 0:13:12.618 --> 0:13:14.659 And it's in a safe place. It's not at the 0:13:14.659 --> 0:13:21.179 police station. It's in a neutral area, and yeah, that's 0:13:21.259 --> 0:13:28.619 what works. If you're unsure, pick up the phone. Whether 0:13:28.659 --> 0:13:31.898 it's you know, rape crisis, whether it's the Luise Nicholas trust, 0:13:32.338 --> 0:13:35.218 it doesn't matter. Oh and then ask the information and 0:13:35.379 --> 0:13:38.299 guidance because we're there to guide. We're there to advocate 0:13:38.338 --> 0:13:42.379 on your behalf to do what we can because we 0:13:42.498 --> 0:13:46.859 know we have that lived experience, We understand the trauma, 0:13:46.899 --> 0:13:51.779 we understand that, you know, taking that keep forward into 0:13:52.059 --> 0:13:53.939 Actually I want to tell my story. How do I 0:13:54.019 --> 0:13:54.299 do that? 0:13:54.779 --> 0:13:56.939 Do you remember what was going through your head before 0:13:56.978 --> 0:13:58.099 you told your story? 0:13:58.779 --> 0:14:05.659 Yeah, I absolutely it was I can't because I need 0:14:05.699 --> 0:14:10.099 to protect everyone around me. No one's going to believe me. 0:14:10.218 --> 0:14:12.739 Look who I'm up against. You know, I'm going to 0:14:12.738 --> 0:14:15.498 be telling the story of a rape by members of 0:14:15.539 --> 0:14:18.099 the New Zealand Police who the help going to believe me. 0:14:20.219 --> 0:14:23.258 But it was the thought I had with my family, 0:14:23.339 --> 0:14:26.579 especially my husband, who said that you can. You can 0:14:26.659 --> 0:14:29.219 do this because everything that has happened to you is 0:14:29.259 --> 0:14:33.258 not your fault. And that's what our survivors need to 0:14:33.939 --> 0:14:38.899 understand and appreciate that you now have an opportunity to 0:14:38.979 --> 0:14:43.019 right the wrongs of the past, and for me, when 0:14:43.019 --> 0:14:46.059 I talk to our survivors, it's I always say to them, 0:14:47.339 --> 0:14:53.258 it's not about the destination, it's the journey. And regardless 0:14:53.259 --> 0:14:56.299 of the outcome, if it gets to court, regardless of 0:14:56.339 --> 0:15:00.139 the outcome, you have told you have held that person 0:15:00.219 --> 0:15:05.219 to account. You have taken back the power that was 0:15:05.259 --> 0:15:09.699 taken from you. And it's amazing how our survivors go 0:15:09.859 --> 0:15:13.219 into the process with their heads down and they walk 0:15:13.259 --> 0:15:21.059 out the other side going I did it. I did it. Absolutely. 0:15:21.139 --> 0:15:25.819 You can absolutely as our justice system and the way 0:15:25.859 --> 0:15:29.099 we have to go through this process. Okay, no, it's 0:15:29.139 --> 0:15:32.499 not easy. I'm not gonna lie. But at the end 0:15:32.539 --> 0:15:33.859 of the day, all you can do is tell you 0:15:33.859 --> 0:15:37.138 the truth and it doesn't matter what anyone else throws 0:15:37.139 --> 0:15:40.379 at you. You can stand tall, you tell your truth 0:15:40.499 --> 0:15:41.499 and it's all you've got to do. 0:15:42.219 --> 0:15:43.859 Thanks so much for joining us, Louise. 0:15:45.059 --> 0:15:53.419 No worries at all. Thank you for having men help. 0:15:53.619 --> 0:15:56.219 Auckland was set up in nineteen eighty two and has 0:15:56.259 --> 0:16:00.419 been a specialist provider of sexual abuse support services in 0:16:00.499 --> 0:16:05.459 Tamickee Makodo ever since. Executive Director Katherine McPhillips is a 0:16:05.499 --> 0:16:07.819 clinical psychologist and joins us. 0:16:07.699 --> 0:16:09.019 Now on the front page. 0:16:11.859 --> 0:16:14.859 So, Catherine, what was your first reaction when you heard 0:16:14.899 --> 0:16:16.739 the details. 0:16:16.099 --> 0:16:17.979 About the woman at the center of all this. 0:16:19.379 --> 0:16:22.459 Well, you know, first reaction is to feel empathy for her, 0:16:22.499 --> 0:16:26.539 to be honest, she's been through a terrible ordeal over 0:16:26.779 --> 0:16:27.898 some years. 0:16:27.579 --> 0:16:28.299 Through all of this. 0:16:30.059 --> 0:16:32.539 But I have to say, it's not an uncommon story, 0:16:32.939 --> 0:16:37.299 not in terms of you know, the nature of the 0:16:37.379 --> 0:16:43.019 role of the person who was hurting her or you know, 0:16:43.099 --> 0:16:46.539 all of the investigation that followed, but certainly men in 0:16:46.579 --> 0:16:49.379 positions of power, it's not uncommon for us to hear 0:16:49.939 --> 0:16:53.579 kind of stories where women are victimized over quite a 0:16:53.579 --> 0:16:56.499 period of time and try to get out of those 0:16:56.499 --> 0:17:00.298 situations or alert other people to it and don't get listen. 0:17:00.099 --> 0:17:04.178 To How do you think sexual assault survivors felt at 0:17:04.219 --> 0:17:06.658 hearing about this case, Well. 0:17:06.899 --> 0:17:11.019 You know, really concerned that it will diminish people's trust 0:17:11.099 --> 0:17:14.859 in the police and make people feel you know, even 0:17:14.899 --> 0:17:17.219 more unsafe to go and report to police. 0:17:17.259 --> 0:17:18.739 It's a really hard thing. 0:17:18.659 --> 0:17:22.379 To do to do that anyway, and this kind of 0:17:22.579 --> 0:17:24.619 you know, finding out about this kind of thing having 0:17:24.619 --> 0:17:28.459 occurred just you know, notches that down. And to be honest, 0:17:28.499 --> 0:17:31.259 we've you know, New Zealand's been quite slow to get 0:17:31.339 --> 0:17:33.539 up our reporting and you know we've only just in 0:17:33.539 --> 0:17:36.019 the last year or so been getting those reporting rapes up. 0:17:36.139 --> 0:17:37.379 So you know, my. 0:17:37.459 --> 0:17:40.779 Concern is that it will lead people to feel concerned 0:17:40.819 --> 0:17:42.739 that they won't be listened to, they won't be heard, 0:17:42.819 --> 0:17:45.299 and you know that they'll be blamed for what's happened 0:17:45.339 --> 0:17:48.739 to them. And so yeah, I think it's really important 0:17:48.779 --> 0:17:53.579 that people understand that there are support services in place, 0:17:53.859 --> 0:17:57.739 so services like help where I am, there's services right 0:17:57.739 --> 0:17:59.739 across the country. So if you go to a police 0:17:59.739 --> 0:18:02.499 station to make a complaint and sexual assault, you know 0:18:02.579 --> 0:18:06.099 that there is an independent support person there with you 0:18:06.179 --> 0:18:09.579 through that process and that those services available to you 0:18:09.619 --> 0:18:12.859 for as long as you need them. And you know 0:18:12.939 --> 0:18:17.699 that's a you know, we're there to ensure that or 0:18:17.899 --> 0:18:20.299 kind of to promote people well being through the process. 0:18:20.379 --> 0:18:23.658 But that certainly can involve talking with the police if 0:18:23.699 --> 0:18:26.099 things are going astray. You know, we work with police 0:18:26.459 --> 0:18:28.699 every day and so we have those kind of relationships 0:18:28.699 --> 0:18:32.299 where we are able to ask, oh. 0:18:32.139 --> 0:18:35.099 You know, why is that happening, and you know, be 0:18:35.219 --> 0:18:36.659 in that place to support people. 0:18:36.739 --> 0:18:39.659 So I really want people to know that you're not 0:18:39.779 --> 0:18:42.419 only trusting the police if you want to make those complaints, 0:18:42.419 --> 0:18:45.819 but there are independent support people there as well. 0:18:52.059 --> 0:18:54.539 I want to apologize to the woman at the center 0:18:54.579 --> 0:18:58.019 of this for the repeated early failures in following the 0:18:58.059 --> 0:19:02.379 proper processes investigating this matter by those at such a 0:19:02.499 --> 0:19:08.059 senior level of police. You had asked for help, you 0:19:08.099 --> 0:19:11.259 would badly let down. That was unacceptable. 0:19:14.019 --> 0:19:16.739 What are some of the biggest barriers in general for 0:19:16.859 --> 0:19:19.259 people to come forward other than I mean, I guess 0:19:19.539 --> 0:19:21.898 it would be really scary going to police in the 0:19:21.899 --> 0:19:22.539 first place. 0:19:22.619 --> 0:19:24.539 Hey, yeah, it's really scary. 0:19:24.579 --> 0:19:26.939 But you know big barrier is that you don't expect 0:19:26.939 --> 0:19:30.379 to be believed often. You know, that's the nature of grooming, 0:19:30.459 --> 0:19:33.659 that's the nature of sexual violence, and you know, that's 0:19:33.659 --> 0:19:36.779 why it's so important that people who are responding to 0:19:37.979 --> 0:19:41.859 complaints really do understand the dynamics that a lot of time, 0:19:42.179 --> 0:19:44.619 what that grooming does is, you know, the person causing 0:19:44.659 --> 0:19:48.099 harm will do things and say things to diminish the 0:19:48.179 --> 0:19:51.819 person or you know, as appears to have occurred in 0:19:51.859 --> 0:19:53.099 this situation. 0:19:53.899 --> 0:19:55.819 They groom the environment that they're in. 0:19:56.019 --> 0:19:58.499 So, you know, an example of that here is that 0:19:59.379 --> 0:20:02.859 you know that you talk negatively about the person before 0:20:02.859 --> 0:20:05.379 they've even made a complaint, so that when that complaint 0:20:05.459 --> 0:20:06.099 comes in. 0:20:06.259 --> 0:20:07.539 The person isn't believed. 0:20:07.579 --> 0:20:10.539 You know, that's a really really common dynamic of sexual violence, 0:20:10.619 --> 0:20:12.859 and so you know, we really need to make sure 0:20:12.899 --> 0:20:16.259 that the people responsible for responding to complaints, you know, 0:20:16.459 --> 0:20:20.059 are always informed about those dynamics. Certainly, the you know, 0:20:20.179 --> 0:20:23.859 the sex assault police teams at the front line are 0:20:23.859 --> 0:20:26.899 informed about those but you know, one you know, reading 0:20:26.899 --> 0:20:29.179 the IPCA report, you have to question where the police 0:20:29.219 --> 0:20:29.699 hire up. 0:20:30.019 --> 0:20:32.179 We're well informed about those dynamics. 0:20:32.619 --> 0:20:34.939 If someone was to come to you for advice and 0:20:34.979 --> 0:20:37.219 they had been sitting on something and they were ready 0:20:37.259 --> 0:20:39.419 to come forward, but then they see something like this 0:20:39.619 --> 0:20:42.379 happening and it kind of you know, pushes them back 0:20:42.419 --> 0:20:44.699 a little bit, what kind of advice would you give them? 0:20:45.059 --> 0:20:47.379 Yeah, I mean, so we would talk to them about 0:20:47.379 --> 0:20:49.019 what they needed to feel safe. 0:20:49.179 --> 0:20:50.579 I mean, it's always their decision. 0:20:50.619 --> 0:20:53.099 There's no pressure from us about whether you report or 0:20:53.139 --> 0:20:55.099 don't report, because it really has to be the. 0:20:54.979 --> 0:20:57.299 Individual's decision on that. 0:20:57.819 --> 0:21:00.138 But really, I mean the kinds of things that we 0:21:00.179 --> 0:21:02.819 would do is talk with them through their worries, talk 0:21:02.859 --> 0:21:06.539 with them about how those worries might be addressed. You know, 0:21:06.699 --> 0:21:08.739 if they wanted to make that complaint, then we would 0:21:08.779 --> 0:21:11.259 make sure that we were with them and you know, 0:21:11.339 --> 0:21:13.379 fully able to support them through the process. 0:21:13.779 --> 0:21:16.459 But it really is an individual decision, and. 0:21:17.819 --> 0:21:19.859 You know, I think that that can be hard sometimes 0:21:19.859 --> 0:21:21.379 for friends and family to understand. 0:21:21.419 --> 0:21:23.299 They're like, well, why don't you're reporting, why't you're reporting? 0:21:23.619 --> 0:21:25.339 But it is a tough process. 0:21:25.459 --> 0:21:29.499 You have to talk about things which can feel shaming 0:21:29.499 --> 0:21:32.658 and that are very intimate, and you know, the reality is, 0:21:33.539 --> 0:21:35.979 you know, we see from things like the Gender Attitudes 0:21:36.059 --> 0:21:40.339 Survey for example, you know there are lots of New 0:21:40.459 --> 0:21:43.619 Zealanders who do don't blame people who are victims of 0:21:43.659 --> 0:21:46.699 sexual assaultants. So there is always that wondering and so 0:21:47.099 --> 0:21:49.379 you know, people really have to make that decision themselves 0:21:49.419 --> 0:21:51.539 about whether they want to go forward with a complaint 0:21:51.659 --> 0:21:51.859 or not. 0:21:52.259 --> 0:21:55.419 And I suppose psychologically as well, bringing up those things 0:21:55.419 --> 0:21:58.219 and speaking about them, I guess people may not understand 0:21:58.299 --> 0:22:03.339 that PTSD you actually feel those emotions. You feel like 0:22:03.499 --> 0:22:06.019 you did at the time that it happens. So it 0:22:06.059 --> 0:22:08.259 doesn't matter whether it's a couple of years, a couple 0:22:08.339 --> 0:22:10.779 of months or a couple of decades afterwards, right. 0:22:10.979 --> 0:22:14.659 Yes, absolutely, absolutely, so thinking about it can you know, 0:22:14.819 --> 0:22:16.739 we call that an internal trigger that can. 0:22:16.859 --> 0:22:19.139 Take you back to those feelings. 0:22:19.299 --> 0:22:22.579 But certainly being in a situation where somebody's asking you 0:22:22.579 --> 0:22:24.459 about it can put you back in that place, or 0:22:24.499 --> 0:22:27.059 even if there's dynamics going on that just remind you 0:22:27.139 --> 0:22:30.779 of those experiences. And so you know, that's the reason 0:22:30.779 --> 0:22:34.259 for those independent support people being there is that we 0:22:34.379 --> 0:22:37.979 can help people get through that process keeping their well 0:22:37.979 --> 0:22:39.699 being as intact as possible. 0:22:39.939 --> 0:22:42.499 And I suppose Fano and friends can come to you 0:22:42.539 --> 0:22:44.779 as well for advice if they have somebody close to 0:22:44.819 --> 0:22:48.539 them who has experienced this or is going through something 0:22:48.659 --> 0:22:48.859 like this. 0:22:49.459 --> 0:22:53.219 Absolutely, we welcome our friends and Fano coming to us 0:22:53.939 --> 0:22:57.099 because you know, we're in people's lives for a short 0:22:57.099 --> 0:22:57.739 period of time. 0:22:57.819 --> 0:23:00.539 Your friends and your family are around you, you know, long. 0:23:00.419 --> 0:23:03.779 Term, so the better equipped that they are to support survivors, 0:23:04.259 --> 0:23:04.659 the better. 0:23:05.139 --> 0:23:07.739 Thank you so much for joining us, Catherine. 0:23:07.339 --> 0:23:08.019 Thanks Chelsea. 0:23:11.259 --> 0:23:14.459 That said, for this episode of the Front Page, you 0:23:14.499 --> 0:23:18.379 can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 0:23:19.099 --> 0:23:23.139 Herald dot co dot Nz. The Front Page is produced 0:23:23.139 --> 0:23:26.859 by Jane Yee and Richard Martin, who is also our editor. 0:23:27.379 --> 0:23:28.819 I'm Chelsea Daniels. 0:23:29.219 --> 0:23:32.459 Subscribe to the front page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 0:23:32.459 --> 0:23:36.139 get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 0:23:36.219 --> 0:23:37.419 behind the headlines.