Speaker 1: Kyota at Chelsea Daniels here, host of the Front Page.
Speaker 1: We're taking away breakover summer, but to help build the gap,
Speaker 1: we're re issuing some of our most significant episodes of
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five on behalf of the Front Page team.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening and we look forward to being back
Speaker 1: with you on January twelfth, twenty twenty six. Kyota, I'm
Speaker 1: Chelsea Daniels, and this is the Front Page, a daily
Speaker 1: podcast presented by.
Speaker 2: The New Zealand Herald.
Speaker 1: It's been revealed that police ignored sex allegations against a
Speaker 1: former top cop and instead prosecuted a woman for revenge emails.
Speaker 1: The woman had emailed police, politicians and newsrooms accusing former
Speaker 1: Deputy Police Commissioner Jevin mcskimming of being a sexual predator.
Speaker 2: The Police Watchdog.
Speaker 1: Has released a scathing one hundred and thirty five page
Speaker 1: report into how the allegations were treated and how the
Speaker 1: ambitions of a senior police officer were put above the
Speaker 1: interests of a vulnerable woman. Police Commissioner Richard Chambers has
Speaker 1: said she was ignored and badly let down. He said
Speaker 1: it makes for appolling reading and the conduct of the
Speaker 1: former top brass is inexcusable. He was briefed about the
Speaker 1: situation just two days before he stepped into the role,
Speaker 1: and during the course of the investigation, detectives discovered mcskimming
Speaker 1: had used his work devices to search for pornography, including
Speaker 1: beast reality and child sex exploitation material for at least
Speaker 1: five years. The fifty two year old resigned in disgrace
Speaker 1: and was later charged. He's pleaded guilty last week and
Speaker 1: will be sentenced next month. This whole ordeal has been
Speaker 1: indisputably damaging to one of the most important institutions in
Speaker 1: our country. Later, we'll speak to help Auckland's executive director,
Speaker 1: Catherine McPhillips about how to support anyone who has experienced
Speaker 1: sexual abuse. But first, someone who knows all too well
Speaker 1: what it's like to step up to those in power
Speaker 1: is Louise Nicholas. She alleged police officers raped her as
Speaker 1: a teen in the eighties and this resulted in criminal trials,
Speaker 1: a commission of inquiry and an officer being jailed for
Speaker 1: attempting to pervert the course of justice. She is a
Speaker 1: campaigner for victims of sexual assault and joins us Now
Speaker 1: on the front page.
Speaker 2: First Off Louise. When you heard this news, what was
Speaker 2: your first reaction?
Speaker 3: Oh, just belief and then sadness and then anger and
Speaker 3: a bit of deja booth thrown in amongst it all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that deja vuo that would bring back some
Speaker 1: pretty heavy feelings for you hearing about that happening in
Speaker 1: the police force again.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And I think that's that's what it was.
Speaker 3: That kind of like kicked me back into that time.
Speaker 3: But I soon realized that this is it came across
Speaker 3: ed this time police were actually doing something about it
Speaker 3: and not dragging the chain or dragging it out or
Speaker 3: you know, putting their hands up and saying nah, not
Speaker 3: us sort of thing. They were on too, it being
Speaker 3: straight away as soon as that IPCA report came out,
Speaker 3: it was all on.
Speaker 1: So hearing Richard Chambers and Mark Mitchell speak, was that
Speaker 1: quite a bit different than what you experienced.
Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely absolutely. It was like, I wouldn't say a
Speaker 3: breath of fresh air, but it just it gave me.
Speaker 3: It made me feel this is actually going to be
Speaker 3: okay in the long run because they're onto it, they're
Speaker 3: acknowledging the harm, they're acknowledging the survivor they're acknowledging where
Speaker 3: police have gone wrong, you know, with that team that
Speaker 3: covered everything up. So for me, it was this is
Speaker 3: going to be okay, bettersweet pretty much. Yeah.
Speaker 1: When there are questions around public trust in police, I
Speaker 1: suppose the response is usually something like, you know, these
Speaker 1: kind of things happen. That's rotten apples in the basket.
Speaker 1: But the majority, I mean, it'd be hitting the thousands
Speaker 1: of sworn and unsworn police officers mind you pretty hard
Speaker 1: at the moment.
Speaker 2: What's your first thought when you hear statements like that?
Speaker 3: Immediately go to those that are actually doing the work,
Speaker 3: and doing the work really really well to a point
Speaker 3: that you know, this is why our survivors are coming forward.
Speaker 3: It's because of the the empathy, the integrity that take
Speaker 3: the cop hat off and actually be human when they're
Speaker 3: dealing with our survivors that are going through this. You know,
Speaker 3: that just describes this this horror, and you've got a
Speaker 3: copper sitting there in front of them, acknowledging the harm
Speaker 3: and saying we will do what we can and you
Speaker 3: can't be I wish that had happened way back in
Speaker 3: the day, you know, but it is happening.
Speaker 1: Now, the Independent Police Conduct Authority did an investigation, I
Speaker 1: suppose whether the allegations were true, and that's not their
Speaker 1: role here, but it did find police ignored the woman
Speaker 1: at the center of this, delayed the investigation, and accepted
Speaker 1: mixed Skimming's version of versions of events. What message do
Speaker 1: you think that that sends anyone kind of weighing up
Speaker 1: at the moment whether or not to come forward about
Speaker 1: something like this.
Speaker 3: Well, I think what we've got to remember it was
Speaker 3: senior staff that took control of that investigation and when
Speaker 3: somebody from you know, underneath that came in and challenged
Speaker 3: what they were doing. That to me is the hope
Speaker 3: that that New Zealanders need to remember that there's always
Speaker 3: somebody within the New Zealand place. They've got you back.
Speaker 3: They absolutely have. And when I heard that, actually how
Speaker 3: it all unfolded, I thought, yeah, that you've got people
Speaker 3: that aren't the bad eggs, that are the good people
Speaker 3: that are that are helping our communities. And so for
Speaker 3: me it was a revelation of thoughts.
Speaker 2: That something's actually happening.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, that somebody's actually you know, taking the ball
Speaker 3: by the wounds and bringing the people that are doing
Speaker 3: the bad to account.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did find sollace in the fact that despite
Speaker 1: I suppose, the efforts to keep this all covered up,
Speaker 1: there were a few staffers who made sure that it
Speaker 1: made the light of day.
Speaker 2: Judith Collins said it herself when she said this was.
Speaker 3: All was some sort of group think going on.
Speaker 4: But there were thankfully at least three people, lower ranked
Speaker 4: people who stood up for what they knew was the
Speaker 4: right thing. And one of them sent this matter of
Speaker 4: the IPCA as a complaint. And without her work and
Speaker 4: their work of the others, this might never have seen the.
Speaker 3: Light of day.
Speaker 1: Do you wish that there were some junior staffers, a
Speaker 1: woman there, lower in the ranks there in your situation.
Speaker 3: Yeah, instead of a reporter what it was, you know,
Speaker 3: And that's what it took somebody within the media to
Speaker 3: acknowledge and investigate and show that there was all this
Speaker 3: corruptness going on and all this harm being done to
Speaker 3: not only the South but to ow many others. And
Speaker 3: he took the ball by the horns and did something
Speaker 3: about it. And it's kind of like it's mirrored with
Speaker 3: the police that you know, the lower ranked police officers
Speaker 3: that did exactly the same thing that is what the
Speaker 3: change has been. They believed without a doubt. Absolutely they
Speaker 3: saw that process and protocol and everything. You know, it's
Speaker 3: standard in how to investigate a disclosure of that type
Speaker 3: and that was just shoved under and yeah, they did everything.
Speaker 3: They questioned why this wasn't happening, why are you doing this?
Speaker 3: And so because of that it brought it to the
Speaker 3: light of day.
Speaker 5: We will continue to do what is needed to ensure
Speaker 5: this does not happen again. Police have also accepted all
Speaker 5: the recommendations in the report. The Police Commissioner will speak
Speaker 5: to that in more details shortly. The New Zealand Police
Speaker 5: enjoys strong public trust and confidence. It is imperative that
Speaker 5: this trust is maintained. That comes with strong action on
Speaker 5: the part of the government. Finally, I do want to
Speaker 5: stress that these adverse findings should not be seen as
Speaker 5: a reflection on our police service as a whole.
Speaker 1: When you look back at what you've been through with
Speaker 1: the police in the past, obviously from the eighties until
Speaker 1: the early two thousands up until now, and you now
Speaker 1: work with police, you with the sexual assault advocacy work
Speaker 1: that you do, did you personally find it difficult to
Speaker 1: regain that trust well for the police.
Speaker 3: And in the beginning, absolutely I didn't trust them, and
Speaker 3: I told them that to these basis, especially going through
Speaker 3: the thought process and that you know, they were wanting
Speaker 3: me to make another statement to do this, and I
Speaker 3: kept saying, no, I'm not doing that. I don't trust you,
Speaker 3: bastards was my words. But it's been over. It was
Speaker 3: a huge learning for myself and it was a conclusion
Speaker 3: that I came to that it wasn't the New Zealand
Speaker 3: police that hurt me. It was individuals with them. And
Speaker 3: it's the same for this as well. And that's why
Speaker 3: I'm advocating on you know, on behalf of those police
Speaker 3: people that I work alongside, that my team works alongside
Speaker 3: every single day right across the country, is that we're
Speaker 3: advocating for you because we know that you're doing the
Speaker 3: best that you can for our survivors. And so it
Speaker 3: wasn't you as an individual who did what that senior
Speaker 3: do up the ranks. And that's what people need to understand.
Speaker 3: Don't define what we're skimming and those others did and say, well,
Speaker 3: every cops are saying no, no, it's not.
Speaker 1: If there is someone out there right now struggling and
Speaker 1: they want to come forward with any allegation something's happened
Speaker 1: to them.
Speaker 2: They've survived something horrific and they.
Speaker 1: Felt knocked back by what's happened, and when the story
Speaker 1: came out, they kind of took a step back. I
Speaker 1: suppose what would you tell them to take that couple
Speaker 1: of steps forward?
Speaker 3: Yep, please take that couple of steps forward. There are
Speaker 3: agents these right across organizations right across New Zealand that
Speaker 3: can support you. And the core thing that we have
Speaker 3: worked hard alongside police with is how do we get
Speaker 3: that first disclosure? How do we get our survivors to
Speaker 3: trust in the police and in the process. And it's
Speaker 3: quite simple. It's like a meet and greet. So we
Speaker 3: meet with a detective who is in the adult Sexual
Speaker 3: Assault team or in the child protection team or you know,
Speaker 3: and we have that conversation. And we have done that
Speaker 3: hundreds of times, and not one survivors turned around and said,
Speaker 3: I'm not doing this Because it's about bringing together and
Speaker 3: helping each other. The police officer and the survivor and
Speaker 3: the FARNO actually understand what this process is all about.
Speaker 3: And it's in a safe place. It's not at the
Speaker 3: police station. It's in a neutral area, and yeah, that's
Speaker 3: what works. If you're unsure, pick up the phone. Whether
Speaker 3: it's you know, rape crisis, whether it's the Luise Nicholas trust,
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter. Oh and then ask the information and
Speaker 3: guidance because we're there to guide. We're there to advocate
Speaker 3: on your behalf to do what we can because we
Speaker 3: know we have that lived experience, We understand the trauma,
Speaker 3: we understand that, you know, taking that keep forward into
Speaker 3: Actually I want to tell my story. How do I
Speaker 3: do that?
Speaker 2: Do you remember what was going through your head before
Speaker 2: you told your story?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I absolutely it was I can't because I need
Speaker 3: to protect everyone around me. No one's going to believe me.
Speaker 3: Look who I'm up against. You know, I'm going to
Speaker 3: be telling the story of a rape by members of
Speaker 3: the New Zealand Police who the help going to believe me.
Speaker 3: But it was the thought I had with my family,
Speaker 3: especially my husband, who said that you can. You can
Speaker 3: do this because everything that has happened to you is
Speaker 3: not your fault. And that's what our survivors need to
Speaker 3: understand and appreciate that you now have an opportunity to
Speaker 3: right the wrongs of the past, and for me, when
Speaker 3: I talk to our survivors, it's I always say to them,
Speaker 3: it's not about the destination, it's the journey. And regardless
Speaker 3: of the outcome, if it gets to court, regardless of
Speaker 3: the outcome, you have told you have held that person
Speaker 3: to account. You have taken back the power that was
Speaker 3: taken from you. And it's amazing how our survivors go
Speaker 3: into the process with their heads down and they walk
Speaker 3: out the other side going I did it. I did it. Absolutely.
Speaker 3: You can absolutely as our justice system and the way
Speaker 3: we have to go through this process. Okay, no, it's
Speaker 3: not easy. I'm not gonna lie. But at the end
Speaker 3: of the day, all you can do is tell you
Speaker 3: the truth and it doesn't matter what anyone else throws
Speaker 3: at you. You can stand tall, you tell your truth
Speaker 3: and it's all you've got to do.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for joining us, Louise.
Speaker 3: No worries at all. Thank you for having men help.
Speaker 1: Auckland was set up in nineteen eighty two and has
Speaker 1: been a specialist provider of sexual abuse support services in
Speaker 1: Tamickee Makodo ever since. Executive Director Katherine McPhillips is a
Speaker 1: clinical psychologist and joins us.
Speaker 2: Now on the front page.
Speaker 1: So, Catherine, what was your first reaction when you heard
Speaker 1: the details.
Speaker 2: About the woman at the center of all this.
Speaker 6: Well, you know, first reaction is to feel empathy for her,
Speaker 6: to be honest, she's been through a terrible ordeal over
Speaker 6: some years.
Speaker 7: Through all of this.
Speaker 6: But I have to say, it's not an uncommon story,
Speaker 6: not in terms of you know, the nature of the
Speaker 6: role of the person who was hurting her or you know,
Speaker 6: all of the investigation that followed, but certainly men in
Speaker 6: positions of power, it's not uncommon for us to hear
Speaker 6: kind of stories where women are victimized over quite a
Speaker 6: period of time and try to get out of those
Speaker 6: situations or alert other people to it and don't get listen.
Speaker 1: To How do you think sexual assault survivors felt at
Speaker 1: hearing about this case, Well.
Speaker 6: You know, really concerned that it will diminish people's trust
Speaker 6: in the police and make people feel you know, even
Speaker 6: more unsafe to go and report to police.
Speaker 7: It's a really hard thing.
Speaker 6: To do to do that anyway, and this kind of
Speaker 6: you know, finding out about this kind of thing having
Speaker 6: occurred just you know, notches that down. And to be honest,
Speaker 6: we've you know, New Zealand's been quite slow to get
Speaker 6: up our reporting and you know we've only just in
Speaker 6: the last year or so been getting those reporting rapes up.
Speaker 7: So you know, my.
Speaker 6: Concern is that it will lead people to feel concerned
Speaker 6: that they won't be listened to, they won't be heard,
Speaker 6: and you know that they'll be blamed for what's happened
Speaker 6: to them. And so yeah, I think it's really important
Speaker 6: that people understand that there are support services in place,
Speaker 6: so services like help where I am, there's services right
Speaker 6: across the country. So if you go to a police
Speaker 6: station to make a complaint and sexual assault, you know
Speaker 6: that there is an independent support person there with you
Speaker 6: through that process and that those services available to you
Speaker 6: for as long as you need them. And you know
Speaker 6: that's a you know, we're there to ensure that or
Speaker 6: kind of to promote people well being through the process.
Speaker 6: But that certainly can involve talking with the police if
Speaker 6: things are going astray. You know, we work with police
Speaker 6: every day and so we have those kind of relationships
Speaker 6: where we are able to ask, oh.
Speaker 7: You know, why is that happening, and you know, be
Speaker 7: in that place to support people.
Speaker 6: So I really want people to know that you're not
Speaker 6: only trusting the police if you want to make those complaints,
Speaker 6: but there are independent support people there as well.
Speaker 8: I want to apologize to the woman at the center
Speaker 8: of this for the repeated early failures in following the
Speaker 8: proper processes investigating this matter by those at such a
Speaker 8: senior level of police. You had asked for help, you
Speaker 8: would badly let down. That was unacceptable.
Speaker 1: What are some of the biggest barriers in general for
Speaker 1: people to come forward other than I mean, I guess
Speaker 1: it would be really scary going to police in the
Speaker 1: first place.
Speaker 7: Hey, yeah, it's really scary.
Speaker 6: But you know big barrier is that you don't expect
Speaker 6: to be believed often. You know, that's the nature of grooming,
Speaker 6: that's the nature of sexual violence, and you know, that's
Speaker 6: why it's so important that people who are responding to
Speaker 6: complaints really do understand the dynamics that a lot of time,
Speaker 6: what that grooming does is, you know, the person causing
Speaker 6: harm will do things and say things to diminish the
Speaker 6: person or you know, as appears to have occurred in
Speaker 6: this situation.
Speaker 7: They groom the environment that they're in.
Speaker 6: So, you know, an example of that here is that
Speaker 6: you know that you talk negatively about the person before
Speaker 6: they've even made a complaint, so that when that complaint
Speaker 6: comes in.
Speaker 7: The person isn't believed.
Speaker 6: You know, that's a really really common dynamic of sexual violence,
Speaker 6: and so you know, we really need to make sure
Speaker 6: that the people responsible for responding to complaints, you know,
Speaker 6: are always informed about those dynamics. Certainly, the you know,
Speaker 6: the sex assault police teams at the front line are
Speaker 6: informed about those but you know, one you know, reading
Speaker 6: the IPCA report, you have to question where the police
Speaker 6: hire up.
Speaker 7: We're well informed about those dynamics.
Speaker 1: If someone was to come to you for advice and
Speaker 1: they had been sitting on something and they were ready
Speaker 1: to come forward, but then they see something like this
Speaker 1: happening and it kind of you know, pushes them back
Speaker 1: a little bit, what kind of advice would you give them?
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, so we would talk to them about
Speaker 6: what they needed to feel safe.
Speaker 7: I mean, it's always their decision.
Speaker 6: There's no pressure from us about whether you report or
Speaker 6: don't report, because it really has to be the.
Speaker 7: Individual's decision on that.
Speaker 6: But really, I mean the kinds of things that we
Speaker 6: would do is talk with them through their worries, talk
Speaker 6: with them about how those worries might be addressed. You know,
Speaker 6: if they wanted to make that complaint, then we would
Speaker 6: make sure that we were with them and you know,
Speaker 6: fully able to support them through the process.
Speaker 7: But it really is an individual decision, and.
Speaker 6: You know, I think that that can be hard sometimes
Speaker 6: for friends and family to understand.
Speaker 7: They're like, well, why don't you're reporting, why't you're reporting?
Speaker 7: But it is a tough process.
Speaker 6: You have to talk about things which can feel shaming
Speaker 6: and that are very intimate, and you know, the reality is,
Speaker 6: you know, we see from things like the Gender Attitudes
Speaker 6: Survey for example, you know there are lots of New
Speaker 6: Zealanders who do don't blame people who are victims of
Speaker 6: sexual assaultants. So there is always that wondering and so
Speaker 6: you know, people really have to make that decision themselves
Speaker 6: about whether they want to go forward with a complaint
Speaker 6: or not.
Speaker 1: And I suppose psychologically as well, bringing up those things
Speaker 1: and speaking about them, I guess people may not understand
Speaker 1: that PTSD you actually feel those emotions. You feel like
Speaker 1: you did at the time that it happens. So it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter whether it's a couple of years, a couple
Speaker 1: of months or a couple of decades afterwards, right.
Speaker 6: Yes, absolutely, absolutely, so thinking about it can you know,
Speaker 6: we call that an internal trigger that can.
Speaker 7: Take you back to those feelings.
Speaker 6: But certainly being in a situation where somebody's asking you
Speaker 6: about it can put you back in that place, or
Speaker 6: even if there's dynamics going on that just remind you
Speaker 6: of those experiences. And so you know, that's the reason
Speaker 6: for those independent support people being there is that we
Speaker 6: can help people get through that process keeping their well
Speaker 6: being as intact as possible.
Speaker 1: And I suppose Fano and friends can come to you
Speaker 1: as well for advice if they have somebody close to
Speaker 1: them who has experienced this or is going through something
Speaker 1: like this.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, we welcome our friends and Fano coming to us
Speaker 6: because you know, we're in people's lives for a short
Speaker 6: period of time.
Speaker 7: Your friends and your family are around you, you know, long.
Speaker 6: Term, so the better equipped that they are to support survivors,
Speaker 6: the better.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us, Catherine.
Speaker 7: Thanks Chelsea.
Speaker 1: That said, for this episode of the Front Page, you
Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 1: Herald dot co dot Nz. The Front Page is produced
Speaker 1: by Jane Yee and Richard Martin, who is also our editor.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 1: Subscribe to the front page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look
Speaker 1: behind the headlines.