1 00:00:19,059 --> 00:00:22,139 Speaker 1: Kyota at Chelsea Daniels here, host of the Front Page. 2 00:00:22,379 --> 00:00:25,299 Speaker 1: We're taking away breakover summer, but to help build the gap, 3 00:00:25,579 --> 00:00:28,699 Speaker 1: we're re issuing some of our most significant episodes of 4 00:00:28,739 --> 00:00:32,019 Speaker 1: twenty twenty five on behalf of the Front Page team. 5 00:00:32,138 --> 00:00:34,619 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening and we look forward to being back 6 00:00:34,659 --> 00:00:44,099 Speaker 1: with you on January twelfth, twenty twenty six. Kyota, I'm 7 00:00:44,179 --> 00:00:47,459 Speaker 1: Chelsea Daniels, and this is the Front Page, a daily 8 00:00:47,579 --> 00:00:49,458 Speaker 1: podcast presented by. 9 00:00:49,259 --> 00:00:50,539 Speaker 2: The New Zealand Herald. 10 00:00:53,859 --> 00:00:58,659 Speaker 1: It's been revealed that police ignored sex allegations against a 11 00:00:58,779 --> 00:01:04,659 Speaker 1: former top cop and instead prosecuted a woman for revenge emails. 12 00:01:05,139 --> 00:01:09,538 Speaker 1: The woman had emailed police, politicians and newsrooms accusing former 13 00:01:09,579 --> 00:01:14,219 Speaker 1: Deputy Police Commissioner Jevin mcskimming of being a sexual predator. 14 00:01:14,699 --> 00:01:16,179 Speaker 2: The Police Watchdog. 15 00:01:15,699 --> 00:01:19,659 Speaker 1: Has released a scathing one hundred and thirty five page 16 00:01:19,739 --> 00:01:23,859 Speaker 1: report into how the allegations were treated and how the 17 00:01:23,938 --> 00:01:27,938 Speaker 1: ambitions of a senior police officer were put above the 18 00:01:28,019 --> 00:01:32,819 Speaker 1: interests of a vulnerable woman. Police Commissioner Richard Chambers has 19 00:01:32,859 --> 00:01:37,099 Speaker 1: said she was ignored and badly let down. He said 20 00:01:37,219 --> 00:01:40,739 Speaker 1: it makes for appolling reading and the conduct of the 21 00:01:40,779 --> 00:01:45,018 Speaker 1: former top brass is inexcusable. He was briefed about the 22 00:01:45,059 --> 00:01:48,259 Speaker 1: situation just two days before he stepped into the role, 23 00:01:48,659 --> 00:01:52,698 Speaker 1: and during the course of the investigation, detectives discovered mcskimming 24 00:01:52,819 --> 00:01:57,139 Speaker 1: had used his work devices to search for pornography, including 25 00:01:57,179 --> 00:02:01,219 Speaker 1: beast reality and child sex exploitation material for at least 26 00:02:01,299 --> 00:02:04,979 Speaker 1: five years. The fifty two year old resigned in disgrace 27 00:02:05,139 --> 00:02:09,258 Speaker 1: and was later charged. He's pleaded guilty last week and 28 00:02:09,379 --> 00:02:14,019 Speaker 1: will be sentenced next month. This whole ordeal has been 29 00:02:14,299 --> 00:02:19,459 Speaker 1: indisputably damaging to one of the most important institutions in 30 00:02:19,538 --> 00:02:24,339 Speaker 1: our country. Later, we'll speak to help Auckland's executive director, 31 00:02:24,419 --> 00:02:28,899 Speaker 1: Catherine McPhillips about how to support anyone who has experienced 32 00:02:29,059 --> 00:02:33,738 Speaker 1: sexual abuse. But first, someone who knows all too well 33 00:02:33,899 --> 00:02:37,419 Speaker 1: what it's like to step up to those in power 34 00:02:37,619 --> 00:02:41,619 Speaker 1: is Louise Nicholas. She alleged police officers raped her as 35 00:02:41,659 --> 00:02:45,379 Speaker 1: a teen in the eighties and this resulted in criminal trials, 36 00:02:45,459 --> 00:02:48,899 Speaker 1: a commission of inquiry and an officer being jailed for 37 00:02:48,939 --> 00:02:52,499 Speaker 1: attempting to pervert the course of justice. She is a 38 00:02:52,538 --> 00:02:56,699 Speaker 1: campaigner for victims of sexual assault and joins us Now 39 00:02:56,899 --> 00:02:57,859 Speaker 1: on the front page. 40 00:03:00,899 --> 00:03:05,259 Speaker 2: First Off Louise. When you heard this news, what was 41 00:03:05,299 --> 00:03:06,219 Speaker 2: your first reaction? 42 00:03:07,779 --> 00:03:16,379 Speaker 3: Oh, just belief and then sadness and then anger and 43 00:03:16,459 --> 00:03:18,859 Speaker 3: a bit of deja booth thrown in amongst it all. 44 00:03:20,418 --> 00:03:24,899 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that deja vuo that would bring back some 45 00:03:24,939 --> 00:03:27,819 Speaker 1: pretty heavy feelings for you hearing about that happening in 46 00:03:27,858 --> 00:03:29,738 Speaker 1: the police force again. 47 00:03:30,499 --> 00:03:33,419 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And I think that's that's what it was. 48 00:03:33,459 --> 00:03:37,499 Speaker 3: That kind of like kicked me back into that time. 49 00:03:39,099 --> 00:03:46,739 Speaker 3: But I soon realized that this is it came across 50 00:03:46,979 --> 00:03:51,499 Speaker 3: ed this time police were actually doing something about it 51 00:03:52,099 --> 00:03:56,019 Speaker 3: and not dragging the chain or dragging it out or 52 00:03:56,459 --> 00:03:58,499 Speaker 3: you know, putting their hands up and saying nah, not 53 00:03:58,659 --> 00:04:00,939 Speaker 3: us sort of thing. They were on too, it being 54 00:04:01,299 --> 00:04:04,338 Speaker 3: straight away as soon as that IPCA report came out, 55 00:04:04,619 --> 00:04:05,219 Speaker 3: it was all on. 56 00:04:06,059 --> 00:04:09,539 Speaker 1: So hearing Richard Chambers and Mark Mitchell speak, was that 57 00:04:09,659 --> 00:04:12,499 Speaker 1: quite a bit different than what you experienced. 58 00:04:13,219 --> 00:04:17,739 Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely absolutely. It was like, I wouldn't say a 59 00:04:18,019 --> 00:04:21,819 Speaker 3: breath of fresh air, but it just it gave me. 60 00:04:22,979 --> 00:04:25,059 Speaker 3: It made me feel this is actually going to be 61 00:04:25,179 --> 00:04:30,099 Speaker 3: okay in the long run because they're onto it, they're 62 00:04:30,139 --> 00:04:35,379 Speaker 3: acknowledging the harm, they're acknowledging the survivor they're acknowledging where 63 00:04:36,179 --> 00:04:40,499 Speaker 3: police have gone wrong, you know, with that team that 64 00:04:40,899 --> 00:04:45,339 Speaker 3: covered everything up. So for me, it was this is 65 00:04:45,379 --> 00:04:50,259 Speaker 3: going to be okay, bettersweet pretty much. Yeah. 66 00:04:50,579 --> 00:04:53,899 Speaker 1: When there are questions around public trust in police, I 67 00:04:53,939 --> 00:04:57,179 Speaker 1: suppose the response is usually something like, you know, these 68 00:04:57,299 --> 00:04:59,899 Speaker 1: kind of things happen. That's rotten apples in the basket. 69 00:05:00,059 --> 00:05:03,179 Speaker 1: But the majority, I mean, it'd be hitting the thousands 70 00:05:03,179 --> 00:05:07,379 Speaker 1: of sworn and unsworn police officers mind you pretty hard 71 00:05:07,419 --> 00:05:08,059 Speaker 1: at the moment. 72 00:05:09,059 --> 00:05:11,419 Speaker 2: What's your first thought when you hear statements like that? 73 00:05:12,779 --> 00:05:16,579 Speaker 3: Immediately go to those that are actually doing the work, 74 00:05:16,939 --> 00:05:19,859 Speaker 3: and doing the work really really well to a point 75 00:05:19,939 --> 00:05:23,179 Speaker 3: that you know, this is why our survivors are coming forward. 76 00:05:24,139 --> 00:05:31,019 Speaker 3: It's because of the the empathy, the integrity that take 77 00:05:31,059 --> 00:05:34,699 Speaker 3: the cop hat off and actually be human when they're 78 00:05:34,699 --> 00:05:37,699 Speaker 3: dealing with our survivors that are going through this. You know, 79 00:05:37,779 --> 00:05:42,619 Speaker 3: that just describes this this horror, and you've got a 80 00:05:43,099 --> 00:05:47,738 Speaker 3: copper sitting there in front of them, acknowledging the harm 81 00:05:48,739 --> 00:05:52,699 Speaker 3: and saying we will do what we can and you 82 00:05:52,779 --> 00:05:55,379 Speaker 3: can't be I wish that had happened way back in 83 00:05:55,419 --> 00:05:58,899 Speaker 3: the day, you know, but it is happening. 84 00:05:58,939 --> 00:06:03,139 Speaker 1: Now, the Independent Police Conduct Authority did an investigation, I 85 00:06:03,179 --> 00:06:07,459 Speaker 1: suppose whether the allegations were true, and that's not their 86 00:06:07,539 --> 00:06:10,099 Speaker 1: role here, but it did find police ignored the woman 87 00:06:10,139 --> 00:06:13,619 Speaker 1: at the center of this, delayed the investigation, and accepted 88 00:06:13,699 --> 00:06:19,059 Speaker 1: mixed Skimming's version of versions of events. What message do 89 00:06:18,859 --> 00:06:22,219 Speaker 1: you think that that sends anyone kind of weighing up 90 00:06:22,259 --> 00:06:24,299 Speaker 1: at the moment whether or not to come forward about 91 00:06:24,379 --> 00:06:25,299 Speaker 1: something like this. 92 00:06:26,579 --> 00:06:29,139 Speaker 3: Well, I think what we've got to remember it was 93 00:06:29,299 --> 00:06:35,539 Speaker 3: senior staff that took control of that investigation and when 94 00:06:35,699 --> 00:06:39,819 Speaker 3: somebody from you know, underneath that came in and challenged 95 00:06:40,179 --> 00:06:43,498 Speaker 3: what they were doing. That to me is the hope 96 00:06:43,539 --> 00:06:46,979 Speaker 3: that that New Zealanders need to remember that there's always 97 00:06:46,979 --> 00:06:50,058 Speaker 3: somebody within the New Zealand place. They've got you back. 98 00:06:50,579 --> 00:06:55,419 Speaker 3: They absolutely have. And when I heard that, actually how 99 00:06:55,459 --> 00:07:00,539 Speaker 3: it all unfolded, I thought, yeah, that you've got people 100 00:07:00,979 --> 00:07:04,019 Speaker 3: that aren't the bad eggs, that are the good people 101 00:07:04,299 --> 00:07:08,459 Speaker 3: that are that are helping our communities. And so for 102 00:07:08,539 --> 00:07:13,379 Speaker 3: me it was a revelation of thoughts. 103 00:07:13,299 --> 00:07:15,299 Speaker 2: That something's actually happening. 104 00:07:15,979 --> 00:07:19,499 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, that somebody's actually you know, taking the ball 105 00:07:19,499 --> 00:07:23,219 Speaker 3: by the wounds and bringing the people that are doing 106 00:07:23,259 --> 00:07:24,539 Speaker 3: the bad to account. 107 00:07:24,859 --> 00:07:27,259 Speaker 1: Yeah, I did find sollace in the fact that despite 108 00:07:27,539 --> 00:07:30,019 Speaker 1: I suppose, the efforts to keep this all covered up, 109 00:07:30,139 --> 00:07:32,659 Speaker 1: there were a few staffers who made sure that it 110 00:07:32,699 --> 00:07:33,579 Speaker 1: made the light of day. 111 00:07:34,539 --> 00:07:38,179 Speaker 2: Judith Collins said it herself when she said this was. 112 00:07:38,219 --> 00:07:41,099 Speaker 3: All was some sort of group think going on. 113 00:07:41,499 --> 00:07:45,859 Speaker 4: But there were thankfully at least three people, lower ranked 114 00:07:45,899 --> 00:07:48,779 Speaker 4: people who stood up for what they knew was the 115 00:07:48,819 --> 00:07:51,059 Speaker 4: right thing. And one of them sent this matter of 116 00:07:51,139 --> 00:07:55,219 Speaker 4: the IPCA as a complaint. And without her work and 117 00:07:55,299 --> 00:07:58,219 Speaker 4: their work of the others, this might never have seen the. 118 00:07:58,259 --> 00:07:58,819 Speaker 3: Light of day. 119 00:07:59,779 --> 00:08:03,619 Speaker 1: Do you wish that there were some junior staffers, a 120 00:08:03,739 --> 00:08:09,419 Speaker 1: woman there, lower in the ranks there in your situation. 121 00:08:10,459 --> 00:08:15,579 Speaker 3: Yeah, instead of a reporter what it was, you know, 122 00:08:15,819 --> 00:08:18,579 Speaker 3: And that's what it took somebody within the media to 123 00:08:20,019 --> 00:08:25,419 Speaker 3: acknowledge and investigate and show that there was all this 124 00:08:25,539 --> 00:08:29,179 Speaker 3: corruptness going on and all this harm being done to 125 00:08:29,219 --> 00:08:33,059 Speaker 3: not only the South but to ow many others. And 126 00:08:33,578 --> 00:08:35,819 Speaker 3: he took the ball by the horns and did something 127 00:08:35,859 --> 00:08:39,899 Speaker 3: about it. And it's kind of like it's mirrored with 128 00:08:40,299 --> 00:08:44,098 Speaker 3: the police that you know, the lower ranked police officers 129 00:08:44,139 --> 00:08:47,619 Speaker 3: that did exactly the same thing that is what the 130 00:08:47,699 --> 00:08:55,179 Speaker 3: change has been. They believed without a doubt. Absolutely they 131 00:08:55,299 --> 00:08:59,179 Speaker 3: saw that process and protocol and everything. You know, it's 132 00:08:59,379 --> 00:09:04,779 Speaker 3: standard in how to investigate a disclosure of that type 133 00:09:05,218 --> 00:09:10,779 Speaker 3: and that was just shoved under and yeah, they did everything. 134 00:09:11,059 --> 00:09:14,978 Speaker 3: They questioned why this wasn't happening, why are you doing this? 135 00:09:15,299 --> 00:09:18,538 Speaker 3: And so because of that it brought it to the 136 00:09:19,059 --> 00:09:21,579 Speaker 3: light of day. 137 00:09:25,498 --> 00:09:27,779 Speaker 5: We will continue to do what is needed to ensure 138 00:09:28,259 --> 00:09:32,978 Speaker 5: this does not happen again. Police have also accepted all 139 00:09:33,019 --> 00:09:37,458 Speaker 5: the recommendations in the report. The Police Commissioner will speak 140 00:09:37,498 --> 00:09:41,978 Speaker 5: to that in more details shortly. The New Zealand Police 141 00:09:42,139 --> 00:09:47,939 Speaker 5: enjoys strong public trust and confidence. It is imperative that 142 00:09:47,978 --> 00:09:52,939 Speaker 5: this trust is maintained. That comes with strong action on 143 00:09:53,059 --> 00:09:57,699 Speaker 5: the part of the government. Finally, I do want to 144 00:09:57,738 --> 00:10:01,338 Speaker 5: stress that these adverse findings should not be seen as 145 00:10:01,338 --> 00:10:04,218 Speaker 5: a reflection on our police service as a whole. 146 00:10:07,419 --> 00:10:09,578 Speaker 1: When you look back at what you've been through with 147 00:10:09,659 --> 00:10:15,618 Speaker 1: the police in the past, obviously from the eighties until 148 00:10:15,618 --> 00:10:20,978 Speaker 1: the early two thousands up until now, and you now 149 00:10:21,098 --> 00:10:26,659 Speaker 1: work with police, you with the sexual assault advocacy work 150 00:10:26,699 --> 00:10:31,738 Speaker 1: that you do, did you personally find it difficult to 151 00:10:32,059 --> 00:10:35,458 Speaker 1: regain that trust well for the police. 152 00:10:36,179 --> 00:10:38,738 Speaker 3: And in the beginning, absolutely I didn't trust them, and 153 00:10:39,139 --> 00:10:42,498 Speaker 3: I told them that to these basis, especially going through 154 00:10:42,978 --> 00:10:46,619 Speaker 3: the thought process and that you know, they were wanting 155 00:10:46,659 --> 00:10:49,458 Speaker 3: me to make another statement to do this, and I 156 00:10:49,578 --> 00:10:52,459 Speaker 3: kept saying, no, I'm not doing that. I don't trust you, 157 00:10:52,539 --> 00:10:59,219 Speaker 3: bastards was my words. But it's been over. It was 158 00:10:59,259 --> 00:11:01,699 Speaker 3: a huge learning for myself and it was a conclusion 159 00:11:01,738 --> 00:11:08,059 Speaker 3: that I came to that it wasn't the New Zealand 160 00:11:08,098 --> 00:11:11,618 Speaker 3: police that hurt me. It was individuals with them. And 161 00:11:11,659 --> 00:11:14,458 Speaker 3: it's the same for this as well. And that's why 162 00:11:14,498 --> 00:11:18,019 Speaker 3: I'm advocating on you know, on behalf of those police 163 00:11:18,019 --> 00:11:20,979 Speaker 3: people that I work alongside, that my team works alongside 164 00:11:21,059 --> 00:11:24,778 Speaker 3: every single day right across the country, is that we're 165 00:11:24,819 --> 00:11:28,139 Speaker 3: advocating for you because we know that you're doing the 166 00:11:28,139 --> 00:11:31,179 Speaker 3: best that you can for our survivors. And so it 167 00:11:31,379 --> 00:11:36,459 Speaker 3: wasn't you as an individual who did what that senior 168 00:11:36,779 --> 00:11:41,138 Speaker 3: do up the ranks. And that's what people need to understand. 169 00:11:41,539 --> 00:11:46,819 Speaker 3: Don't define what we're skimming and those others did and say, well, 170 00:11:46,939 --> 00:11:49,539 Speaker 3: every cops are saying no, no, it's not. 171 00:11:50,458 --> 00:11:53,659 Speaker 1: If there is someone out there right now struggling and 172 00:11:54,659 --> 00:11:59,339 Speaker 1: they want to come forward with any allegation something's happened 173 00:11:59,379 --> 00:11:59,658 Speaker 1: to them. 174 00:11:59,819 --> 00:12:02,899 Speaker 2: They've survived something horrific and they. 175 00:12:04,498 --> 00:12:08,098 Speaker 1: Felt knocked back by what's happened, and when the story 176 00:12:08,139 --> 00:12:10,458 Speaker 1: came out, they kind of took a step back. I 177 00:12:10,498 --> 00:12:13,659 Speaker 1: suppose what would you tell them to take that couple 178 00:12:13,659 --> 00:12:14,539 Speaker 1: of steps forward? 179 00:12:15,618 --> 00:12:18,419 Speaker 3: Yep, please take that couple of steps forward. There are 180 00:12:18,458 --> 00:12:22,739 Speaker 3: agents these right across organizations right across New Zealand that 181 00:12:23,019 --> 00:12:26,339 Speaker 3: can support you. And the core thing that we have 182 00:12:26,899 --> 00:12:30,858 Speaker 3: worked hard alongside police with is how do we get 183 00:12:30,899 --> 00:12:33,939 Speaker 3: that first disclosure? How do we get our survivors to 184 00:12:34,139 --> 00:12:38,978 Speaker 3: trust in the police and in the process. And it's 185 00:12:39,098 --> 00:12:42,098 Speaker 3: quite simple. It's like a meet and greet. So we 186 00:12:42,618 --> 00:12:46,419 Speaker 3: meet with a detective who is in the adult Sexual 187 00:12:46,419 --> 00:12:49,458 Speaker 3: Assault team or in the child protection team or you know, 188 00:12:50,059 --> 00:12:54,539 Speaker 3: and we have that conversation. And we have done that 189 00:12:54,899 --> 00:12:58,779 Speaker 3: hundreds of times, and not one survivors turned around and said, 190 00:12:58,819 --> 00:13:03,138 Speaker 3: I'm not doing this Because it's about bringing together and 191 00:13:03,218 --> 00:13:08,179 Speaker 3: helping each other. The police officer and the survivor and 192 00:13:08,338 --> 00:13:12,059 Speaker 3: the FARNO actually understand what this process is all about. 193 00:13:12,618 --> 00:13:14,659 Speaker 3: And it's in a safe place. It's not at the 194 00:13:14,659 --> 00:13:21,179 Speaker 3: police station. It's in a neutral area, and yeah, that's 195 00:13:21,259 --> 00:13:28,619 Speaker 3: what works. If you're unsure, pick up the phone. Whether 196 00:13:28,659 --> 00:13:31,898 Speaker 3: it's you know, rape crisis, whether it's the Luise Nicholas trust, 197 00:13:32,338 --> 00:13:35,218 Speaker 3: it doesn't matter. Oh and then ask the information and 198 00:13:35,379 --> 00:13:38,299 Speaker 3: guidance because we're there to guide. We're there to advocate 199 00:13:38,338 --> 00:13:42,379 Speaker 3: on your behalf to do what we can because we 200 00:13:42,498 --> 00:13:46,859 Speaker 3: know we have that lived experience, We understand the trauma, 201 00:13:46,899 --> 00:13:51,779 Speaker 3: we understand that, you know, taking that keep forward into 202 00:13:52,059 --> 00:13:53,939 Speaker 3: Actually I want to tell my story. How do I 203 00:13:54,019 --> 00:13:54,299 Speaker 3: do that? 204 00:13:54,779 --> 00:13:56,939 Speaker 2: Do you remember what was going through your head before 205 00:13:56,978 --> 00:13:58,099 Speaker 2: you told your story? 206 00:13:58,779 --> 00:14:05,659 Speaker 3: Yeah, I absolutely it was I can't because I need 207 00:14:05,699 --> 00:14:10,099 Speaker 3: to protect everyone around me. No one's going to believe me. 208 00:14:10,218 --> 00:14:12,739 Speaker 3: Look who I'm up against. You know, I'm going to 209 00:14:12,738 --> 00:14:15,498 Speaker 3: be telling the story of a rape by members of 210 00:14:15,539 --> 00:14:18,099 Speaker 3: the New Zealand Police who the help going to believe me. 211 00:14:20,219 --> 00:14:23,258 Speaker 3: But it was the thought I had with my family, 212 00:14:23,339 --> 00:14:26,579 Speaker 3: especially my husband, who said that you can. You can 213 00:14:26,659 --> 00:14:29,219 Speaker 3: do this because everything that has happened to you is 214 00:14:29,259 --> 00:14:33,258 Speaker 3: not your fault. And that's what our survivors need to 215 00:14:33,939 --> 00:14:38,899 Speaker 3: understand and appreciate that you now have an opportunity to 216 00:14:38,979 --> 00:14:43,019 Speaker 3: right the wrongs of the past, and for me, when 217 00:14:43,019 --> 00:14:46,059 Speaker 3: I talk to our survivors, it's I always say to them, 218 00:14:47,339 --> 00:14:53,258 Speaker 3: it's not about the destination, it's the journey. And regardless 219 00:14:53,259 --> 00:14:56,299 Speaker 3: of the outcome, if it gets to court, regardless of 220 00:14:56,339 --> 00:15:00,139 Speaker 3: the outcome, you have told you have held that person 221 00:15:00,219 --> 00:15:05,219 Speaker 3: to account. You have taken back the power that was 222 00:15:05,259 --> 00:15:09,699 Speaker 3: taken from you. And it's amazing how our survivors go 223 00:15:09,859 --> 00:15:13,219 Speaker 3: into the process with their heads down and they walk 224 00:15:13,259 --> 00:15:21,059 Speaker 3: out the other side going I did it. I did it. Absolutely. 225 00:15:21,139 --> 00:15:25,819 Speaker 3: You can absolutely as our justice system and the way 226 00:15:25,859 --> 00:15:29,099 Speaker 3: we have to go through this process. Okay, no, it's 227 00:15:29,139 --> 00:15:32,499 Speaker 3: not easy. I'm not gonna lie. But at the end 228 00:15:32,539 --> 00:15:33,859 Speaker 3: of the day, all you can do is tell you 229 00:15:33,859 --> 00:15:37,138 Speaker 3: the truth and it doesn't matter what anyone else throws 230 00:15:37,139 --> 00:15:40,379 Speaker 3: at you. You can stand tall, you tell your truth 231 00:15:40,499 --> 00:15:41,499 Speaker 3: and it's all you've got to do. 232 00:15:42,219 --> 00:15:43,859 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for joining us, Louise. 233 00:15:45,059 --> 00:15:53,419 Speaker 3: No worries at all. Thank you for having men help. 234 00:15:53,619 --> 00:15:56,219 Speaker 1: Auckland was set up in nineteen eighty two and has 235 00:15:56,259 --> 00:16:00,419 Speaker 1: been a specialist provider of sexual abuse support services in 236 00:16:00,499 --> 00:16:05,459 Speaker 1: Tamickee Makodo ever since. Executive Director Katherine McPhillips is a 237 00:16:05,499 --> 00:16:07,819 Speaker 1: clinical psychologist and joins us. 238 00:16:07,699 --> 00:16:09,019 Speaker 2: Now on the front page. 239 00:16:11,859 --> 00:16:14,859 Speaker 1: So, Catherine, what was your first reaction when you heard 240 00:16:14,899 --> 00:16:16,739 Speaker 1: the details. 241 00:16:16,099 --> 00:16:17,979 Speaker 2: About the woman at the center of all this. 242 00:16:19,379 --> 00:16:22,459 Speaker 6: Well, you know, first reaction is to feel empathy for her, 243 00:16:22,499 --> 00:16:26,539 Speaker 6: to be honest, she's been through a terrible ordeal over 244 00:16:26,779 --> 00:16:27,898 Speaker 6: some years. 245 00:16:27,579 --> 00:16:28,299 Speaker 7: Through all of this. 246 00:16:30,059 --> 00:16:32,539 Speaker 6: But I have to say, it's not an uncommon story, 247 00:16:32,939 --> 00:16:37,299 Speaker 6: not in terms of you know, the nature of the 248 00:16:37,379 --> 00:16:43,019 Speaker 6: role of the person who was hurting her or you know, 249 00:16:43,099 --> 00:16:46,539 Speaker 6: all of the investigation that followed, but certainly men in 250 00:16:46,579 --> 00:16:49,379 Speaker 6: positions of power, it's not uncommon for us to hear 251 00:16:49,939 --> 00:16:53,579 Speaker 6: kind of stories where women are victimized over quite a 252 00:16:53,579 --> 00:16:56,499 Speaker 6: period of time and try to get out of those 253 00:16:56,499 --> 00:17:00,298 Speaker 6: situations or alert other people to it and don't get listen. 254 00:17:00,099 --> 00:17:04,178 Speaker 1: To How do you think sexual assault survivors felt at 255 00:17:04,219 --> 00:17:06,658 Speaker 1: hearing about this case, Well. 256 00:17:06,899 --> 00:17:11,019 Speaker 6: You know, really concerned that it will diminish people's trust 257 00:17:11,099 --> 00:17:14,859 Speaker 6: in the police and make people feel you know, even 258 00:17:14,899 --> 00:17:17,219 Speaker 6: more unsafe to go and report to police. 259 00:17:17,259 --> 00:17:18,739 Speaker 7: It's a really hard thing. 260 00:17:18,659 --> 00:17:22,379 Speaker 6: To do to do that anyway, and this kind of 261 00:17:22,579 --> 00:17:24,619 Speaker 6: you know, finding out about this kind of thing having 262 00:17:24,619 --> 00:17:28,459 Speaker 6: occurred just you know, notches that down. And to be honest, 263 00:17:28,499 --> 00:17:31,259 Speaker 6: we've you know, New Zealand's been quite slow to get 264 00:17:31,339 --> 00:17:33,539 Speaker 6: up our reporting and you know we've only just in 265 00:17:33,539 --> 00:17:36,019 Speaker 6: the last year or so been getting those reporting rapes up. 266 00:17:36,139 --> 00:17:37,379 Speaker 7: So you know, my. 267 00:17:37,459 --> 00:17:40,779 Speaker 6: Concern is that it will lead people to feel concerned 268 00:17:40,819 --> 00:17:42,739 Speaker 6: that they won't be listened to, they won't be heard, 269 00:17:42,819 --> 00:17:45,299 Speaker 6: and you know that they'll be blamed for what's happened 270 00:17:45,339 --> 00:17:48,739 Speaker 6: to them. And so yeah, I think it's really important 271 00:17:48,779 --> 00:17:53,579 Speaker 6: that people understand that there are support services in place, 272 00:17:53,859 --> 00:17:57,739 Speaker 6: so services like help where I am, there's services right 273 00:17:57,739 --> 00:17:59,739 Speaker 6: across the country. So if you go to a police 274 00:17:59,739 --> 00:18:02,499 Speaker 6: station to make a complaint and sexual assault, you know 275 00:18:02,579 --> 00:18:06,099 Speaker 6: that there is an independent support person there with you 276 00:18:06,179 --> 00:18:09,579 Speaker 6: through that process and that those services available to you 277 00:18:09,619 --> 00:18:12,859 Speaker 6: for as long as you need them. And you know 278 00:18:12,939 --> 00:18:17,699 Speaker 6: that's a you know, we're there to ensure that or 279 00:18:17,899 --> 00:18:20,299 Speaker 6: kind of to promote people well being through the process. 280 00:18:20,379 --> 00:18:23,658 Speaker 6: But that certainly can involve talking with the police if 281 00:18:23,699 --> 00:18:26,099 Speaker 6: things are going astray. You know, we work with police 282 00:18:26,459 --> 00:18:28,699 Speaker 6: every day and so we have those kind of relationships 283 00:18:28,699 --> 00:18:32,299 Speaker 6: where we are able to ask, oh. 284 00:18:32,139 --> 00:18:35,099 Speaker 7: You know, why is that happening, and you know, be 285 00:18:35,219 --> 00:18:36,659 Speaker 7: in that place to support people. 286 00:18:36,739 --> 00:18:39,659 Speaker 6: So I really want people to know that you're not 287 00:18:39,779 --> 00:18:42,419 Speaker 6: only trusting the police if you want to make those complaints, 288 00:18:42,419 --> 00:18:45,819 Speaker 6: but there are independent support people there as well. 289 00:18:52,059 --> 00:18:54,539 Speaker 8: I want to apologize to the woman at the center 290 00:18:54,579 --> 00:18:58,019 Speaker 8: of this for the repeated early failures in following the 291 00:18:58,059 --> 00:19:02,379 Speaker 8: proper processes investigating this matter by those at such a 292 00:19:02,499 --> 00:19:08,059 Speaker 8: senior level of police. You had asked for help, you 293 00:19:08,099 --> 00:19:11,259 Speaker 8: would badly let down. That was unacceptable. 294 00:19:14,019 --> 00:19:16,739 Speaker 1: What are some of the biggest barriers in general for 295 00:19:16,859 --> 00:19:19,259 Speaker 1: people to come forward other than I mean, I guess 296 00:19:19,539 --> 00:19:21,898 Speaker 1: it would be really scary going to police in the 297 00:19:21,899 --> 00:19:22,539 Speaker 1: first place. 298 00:19:22,619 --> 00:19:24,539 Speaker 7: Hey, yeah, it's really scary. 299 00:19:24,579 --> 00:19:26,939 Speaker 6: But you know big barrier is that you don't expect 300 00:19:26,939 --> 00:19:30,379 Speaker 6: to be believed often. You know, that's the nature of grooming, 301 00:19:30,459 --> 00:19:33,659 Speaker 6: that's the nature of sexual violence, and you know, that's 302 00:19:33,659 --> 00:19:36,779 Speaker 6: why it's so important that people who are responding to 303 00:19:37,979 --> 00:19:41,859 Speaker 6: complaints really do understand the dynamics that a lot of time, 304 00:19:42,179 --> 00:19:44,619 Speaker 6: what that grooming does is, you know, the person causing 305 00:19:44,659 --> 00:19:48,099 Speaker 6: harm will do things and say things to diminish the 306 00:19:48,179 --> 00:19:51,819 Speaker 6: person or you know, as appears to have occurred in 307 00:19:51,859 --> 00:19:53,099 Speaker 6: this situation. 308 00:19:53,899 --> 00:19:55,819 Speaker 7: They groom the environment that they're in. 309 00:19:56,019 --> 00:19:58,499 Speaker 6: So, you know, an example of that here is that 310 00:19:59,379 --> 00:20:02,859 Speaker 6: you know that you talk negatively about the person before 311 00:20:02,859 --> 00:20:05,379 Speaker 6: they've even made a complaint, so that when that complaint 312 00:20:05,459 --> 00:20:06,099 Speaker 6: comes in. 313 00:20:06,259 --> 00:20:07,539 Speaker 7: The person isn't believed. 314 00:20:07,579 --> 00:20:10,539 Speaker 6: You know, that's a really really common dynamic of sexual violence, 315 00:20:10,619 --> 00:20:12,859 Speaker 6: and so you know, we really need to make sure 316 00:20:12,899 --> 00:20:16,259 Speaker 6: that the people responsible for responding to complaints, you know, 317 00:20:16,459 --> 00:20:20,059 Speaker 6: are always informed about those dynamics. Certainly, the you know, 318 00:20:20,179 --> 00:20:23,859 Speaker 6: the sex assault police teams at the front line are 319 00:20:23,859 --> 00:20:26,899 Speaker 6: informed about those but you know, one you know, reading 320 00:20:26,899 --> 00:20:29,179 Speaker 6: the IPCA report, you have to question where the police 321 00:20:29,219 --> 00:20:29,699 Speaker 6: hire up. 322 00:20:30,019 --> 00:20:32,179 Speaker 7: We're well informed about those dynamics. 323 00:20:32,619 --> 00:20:34,939 Speaker 1: If someone was to come to you for advice and 324 00:20:34,979 --> 00:20:37,219 Speaker 1: they had been sitting on something and they were ready 325 00:20:37,259 --> 00:20:39,419 Speaker 1: to come forward, but then they see something like this 326 00:20:39,619 --> 00:20:42,379 Speaker 1: happening and it kind of you know, pushes them back 327 00:20:42,419 --> 00:20:44,699 Speaker 1: a little bit, what kind of advice would you give them? 328 00:20:45,059 --> 00:20:47,379 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, so we would talk to them about 329 00:20:47,379 --> 00:20:49,019 Speaker 6: what they needed to feel safe. 330 00:20:49,179 --> 00:20:50,579 Speaker 7: I mean, it's always their decision. 331 00:20:50,619 --> 00:20:53,099 Speaker 6: There's no pressure from us about whether you report or 332 00:20:53,139 --> 00:20:55,099 Speaker 6: don't report, because it really has to be the. 333 00:20:54,979 --> 00:20:57,299 Speaker 7: Individual's decision on that. 334 00:20:57,819 --> 00:21:00,138 Speaker 6: But really, I mean the kinds of things that we 335 00:21:00,179 --> 00:21:02,819 Speaker 6: would do is talk with them through their worries, talk 336 00:21:02,859 --> 00:21:06,539 Speaker 6: with them about how those worries might be addressed. You know, 337 00:21:06,699 --> 00:21:08,739 Speaker 6: if they wanted to make that complaint, then we would 338 00:21:08,779 --> 00:21:11,259 Speaker 6: make sure that we were with them and you know, 339 00:21:11,339 --> 00:21:13,379 Speaker 6: fully able to support them through the process. 340 00:21:13,779 --> 00:21:16,459 Speaker 7: But it really is an individual decision, and. 341 00:21:17,819 --> 00:21:19,859 Speaker 6: You know, I think that that can be hard sometimes 342 00:21:19,859 --> 00:21:21,379 Speaker 6: for friends and family to understand. 343 00:21:21,419 --> 00:21:23,299 Speaker 7: They're like, well, why don't you're reporting, why't you're reporting? 344 00:21:23,619 --> 00:21:25,339 Speaker 7: But it is a tough process. 345 00:21:25,459 --> 00:21:29,499 Speaker 6: You have to talk about things which can feel shaming 346 00:21:29,499 --> 00:21:32,658 Speaker 6: and that are very intimate, and you know, the reality is, 347 00:21:33,539 --> 00:21:35,979 Speaker 6: you know, we see from things like the Gender Attitudes 348 00:21:36,059 --> 00:21:40,339 Speaker 6: Survey for example, you know there are lots of New 349 00:21:40,459 --> 00:21:43,619 Speaker 6: Zealanders who do don't blame people who are victims of 350 00:21:43,659 --> 00:21:46,699 Speaker 6: sexual assaultants. So there is always that wondering and so 351 00:21:47,099 --> 00:21:49,379 Speaker 6: you know, people really have to make that decision themselves 352 00:21:49,419 --> 00:21:51,539 Speaker 6: about whether they want to go forward with a complaint 353 00:21:51,659 --> 00:21:51,859 Speaker 6: or not. 354 00:21:52,259 --> 00:21:55,419 Speaker 1: And I suppose psychologically as well, bringing up those things 355 00:21:55,419 --> 00:21:58,219 Speaker 1: and speaking about them, I guess people may not understand 356 00:21:58,299 --> 00:22:03,339 Speaker 1: that PTSD you actually feel those emotions. You feel like 357 00:22:03,499 --> 00:22:06,019 Speaker 1: you did at the time that it happens. So it 358 00:22:06,059 --> 00:22:08,259 Speaker 1: doesn't matter whether it's a couple of years, a couple 359 00:22:08,339 --> 00:22:10,779 Speaker 1: of months or a couple of decades afterwards, right. 360 00:22:10,979 --> 00:22:14,659 Speaker 6: Yes, absolutely, absolutely, so thinking about it can you know, 361 00:22:14,819 --> 00:22:16,739 Speaker 6: we call that an internal trigger that can. 362 00:22:16,859 --> 00:22:19,139 Speaker 7: Take you back to those feelings. 363 00:22:19,299 --> 00:22:22,579 Speaker 6: But certainly being in a situation where somebody's asking you 364 00:22:22,579 --> 00:22:24,459 Speaker 6: about it can put you back in that place, or 365 00:22:24,499 --> 00:22:27,059 Speaker 6: even if there's dynamics going on that just remind you 366 00:22:27,139 --> 00:22:30,779 Speaker 6: of those experiences. And so you know, that's the reason 367 00:22:30,779 --> 00:22:34,259 Speaker 6: for those independent support people being there is that we 368 00:22:34,379 --> 00:22:37,979 Speaker 6: can help people get through that process keeping their well 369 00:22:37,979 --> 00:22:39,699 Speaker 6: being as intact as possible. 370 00:22:39,939 --> 00:22:42,499 Speaker 1: And I suppose Fano and friends can come to you 371 00:22:42,539 --> 00:22:44,779 Speaker 1: as well for advice if they have somebody close to 372 00:22:44,819 --> 00:22:48,539 Speaker 1: them who has experienced this or is going through something 373 00:22:48,659 --> 00:22:48,859 Speaker 1: like this. 374 00:22:49,459 --> 00:22:53,219 Speaker 6: Absolutely, we welcome our friends and Fano coming to us 375 00:22:53,939 --> 00:22:57,099 Speaker 6: because you know, we're in people's lives for a short 376 00:22:57,099 --> 00:22:57,739 Speaker 6: period of time. 377 00:22:57,819 --> 00:23:00,539 Speaker 7: Your friends and your family are around you, you know, long. 378 00:23:00,419 --> 00:23:03,779 Speaker 6: Term, so the better equipped that they are to support survivors, 379 00:23:04,259 --> 00:23:04,659 Speaker 6: the better. 380 00:23:05,139 --> 00:23:07,739 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us, Catherine. 381 00:23:07,339 --> 00:23:08,019 Speaker 7: Thanks Chelsea. 382 00:23:11,259 --> 00:23:14,459 Speaker 1: That said, for this episode of the Front Page, you 383 00:23:14,499 --> 00:23:18,379 Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 384 00:23:19,099 --> 00:23:23,139 Speaker 1: Herald dot co dot Nz. The Front Page is produced 385 00:23:23,139 --> 00:23:26,859 Speaker 1: by Jane Yee and Richard Martin, who is also our editor. 386 00:23:27,379 --> 00:23:28,819 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels. 387 00:23:29,219 --> 00:23:32,459 Speaker 1: Subscribe to the front page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 388 00:23:32,459 --> 00:23:36,139 Speaker 1: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 389 00:23:36,219 --> 00:23:37,419 Speaker 1: behind the headlines.