WEBVTT - Leighton Smith Podcast #282 - April 30th 2025 - Ramesh Thakur 0:00:09.093 --> 0:00:11.973 You're listening to a podcast from News Talks ed B. 0:00:12.373 --> 0:00:16.173 Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 0:00:16.693 --> 0:00:19.733 It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all 0:00:19.773 --> 0:00:24.813 the information, all the debates of the now, the Leyton 0:00:24.933 --> 0:00:27.653 Smith podcast, cowered by News Talks ed B. 0:00:28.053 --> 0:00:31.333 Welcome to podcast two hundred and eighty two for April thirty, 0:00:31.453 --> 0:00:34.893 twenty twenty five. Ramesh the Kerr honors us with his 0:00:35.173 --> 0:00:37.733 appearance this week. Now most of you are familiar with 0:00:37.853 --> 0:00:41.813 Ramesh the Kur, I think he excels himself on this occasion. 0:00:42.493 --> 0:00:45.213 Discussion runs about an hour and a quarter and it 0:00:45.253 --> 0:00:49.373 refers to many headline topics. For those who are unfamiliar 0:00:49.413 --> 0:00:52.493 with Ramesh, here are his qualifications. Have borrowed them from 0:00:52.533 --> 0:00:56.813 the Lowe Institute in Sydney. Ramesh the Kerr is Emeritus 0:00:56.813 --> 0:01:00.333 Professor in the Crawford School of Public Policy the Australian 0:01:00.413 --> 0:01:04.573 National University, a Fellow of the Australian Institute of International 0:01:04.613 --> 0:01:09.453 Affairs and Brownstone Institute. Senior Scott up I was Senior 0:01:09.533 --> 0:01:13.733 Vice Rector of the United Nations University and Assistant Secretary 0:01:13.733 --> 0:01:17.693 General of the United Nations. Educated in India and Canada. 0:01:18.093 --> 0:01:21.093 He was a Professor of International Relations at the University 0:01:21.133 --> 0:01:24.973 of Otago in New Zealand, Professor and head of the 0:01:25.013 --> 0:01:30.373 Peace Research Center at the ANU, and Foundation Director of 0:01:30.493 --> 0:01:36.133 the Balcilly School of International Affairs in Waterloo, Ontario. He 0:01:36.173 --> 0:01:40.493 has also served as a consultant and advisor to the Australian, 0:01:40.573 --> 0:01:44.813 New Zealand and Norwegian governments on arms control, also on 0:01:44.853 --> 0:01:49.693 disarmament and international security issues. He was a commissioner and 0:01:49.933 --> 0:01:53.813 one of the principal authors of the Responsibility to Protect 0:01:54.653 --> 0:01:59.173 and senior advisor on reforms and principal writer of the 0:01:59.293 --> 0:02:03.613 United Nations Secretary General KOFE and NaN's Second Reform Report 0:02:03.893 --> 0:02:07.173 of two thousand and two and We're Not Done. The 0:02:07.253 --> 0:02:09.933 author or editor of new, umerous books, chapters in books 0:02:09.933 --> 0:02:13.093 and journal articles, Professor the Kerr has also been a 0:02:13.133 --> 0:02:18.213 regular contributor to media outlets, served on the international advisory 0:02:18.253 --> 0:02:23.253 boards of institutes in Africa, Asia, Europe and North America, 0:02:23.653 --> 0:02:27.533 and was the editor in chief of Global Governance twenty 0:02:27.573 --> 0:02:30.973 thirteen to twenty eighteen. His books include The United Nations 0:02:31.013 --> 0:02:35.893 Peace and Security From Collective Security to the Responsibility to Protect, 0:02:36.373 --> 0:02:41.413 published by Cambridge University Press twenty seventeen, Global Governance and 0:02:41.453 --> 0:02:45.893 the un An Unfinished Journey from Indiana University Press in 0:02:45.933 --> 0:02:50.093 twenty ten. The Responsibility to Protect Norm's Laws and the 0:02:50.173 --> 0:02:54.293 Use of Force in International Politics came out in twenty eleven, 0:02:54.773 --> 0:02:59.373 The Oxford Handbook of Modern Diplomacy, Oxford University Press, That's 0:02:59.413 --> 0:03:05.533 No Surprise twenty thirteen, Theorizing The Responsibility to Protect Cambridge 0:03:05.613 --> 0:03:09.933 University Press, twenty fifteen. And The Nuclear Band Treaty, A 0:03:10.013 --> 0:03:15.093 Transformational reframing of the Global Nuclear Order, published in twenty 0:03:15.213 --> 0:03:18.733 twenty two. Now, I know that was a long, well 0:03:18.853 --> 0:03:23.253 sort of introduction, but keep in mind that the knowledge 0:03:23.293 --> 0:03:26.933 and experience that he has guarded over a lengthy lifetime 0:03:27.493 --> 0:03:31.173 of work in various areas, as you've heard, qualifies him 0:03:31.253 --> 0:03:36.653 for respect for the opinions that he expresses, and there 0:03:36.653 --> 0:03:39.733 are many of them in the interview to follow, And 0:03:39.813 --> 0:03:41.413 here is a shortlist of some of the things that 0:03:41.533 --> 0:03:48.573 we touch on. Judicial activity, which is creeping, whiles not 0:03:48.653 --> 0:03:54.653 creeping in its racing up the scale of concern in 0:03:54.853 --> 0:03:57.973 much of the world India and Pakistan as a result 0:03:58.053 --> 0:04:03.133 of the recent heated clash China. The World Economic Forum. 0:04:03.493 --> 0:04:07.933 You'll be interested in his comments the United Nations, the WHO. Oh, 0:04:08.013 --> 0:04:12.413 you'll be interested in his opinion on the WHO hospital systems, 0:04:15.213 --> 0:04:20.373 mass migration, and the Canadian election. We touch on well, 0:04:20.613 --> 0:04:24.613 I do briefly in mentioning because that was that was 0:04:24.693 --> 0:04:28.413 yesterday and we were recording at the time when I 0:04:28.453 --> 0:04:31.253 think they were about two hours to go before the 0:04:31.573 --> 0:04:34.773 before the polling closed. So with that in mind, before 0:04:34.813 --> 0:04:38.853 we get to Ramesh, let me lead with Mark Karney's 0:04:39.013 --> 0:04:45.373 House of Cards, which is published by American Affairs and 0:04:45.493 --> 0:04:49.133 its senior editor Michael Suwenka. Two narratives were at play 0:04:49.173 --> 0:04:52.853 in Canada's election. Either the Great White Norse was going 0:04:52.893 --> 0:04:58.133 to continue on its liberal sonder weeg. Sonderweg. It's a 0:04:58.133 --> 0:05:00.933 word I'd not come across before, so I checked it out. 0:05:01.733 --> 0:05:05.773 It relates to the Weimar Democracy is the simplest way 0:05:05.773 --> 0:05:09.373 to put it, anyway, to continue on its liberal sounderweg, 0:05:09.493 --> 0:05:13.533 rejecting the right populist surge that has erupted elsewhere in 0:05:13.573 --> 0:05:16.453 the West. Or it was going to take the same 0:05:16.533 --> 0:05:20.173 plunge into the unknown that their American and British cousins 0:05:20.173 --> 0:05:23.653 had taken with Trump and Brexit. And from there I 0:05:23.773 --> 0:05:26.693 jumped straight to the closing paragraph. At the start of 0:05:26.733 --> 0:05:30.333 his ministry, Mark Carney made a bizarre gesture. He winked 0:05:30.333 --> 0:05:33.173 at the camera as if to cross the fourth wall 0:05:33.493 --> 0:05:37.053 and communicate with someone to those something to those watching 0:05:37.613 --> 0:05:41.613 on social media. Karne was then compared with the protagonist 0:05:41.693 --> 0:05:45.373 of the House of Cards, a shrewd Macavelian figure who 0:05:45.493 --> 0:05:49.213 comes in from the shadows to seize and hold power 0:05:49.253 --> 0:05:54.733 against great odds. Instead, what we Canadians got was a 0:05:54.813 --> 0:05:58.853 house of cards in the more literal sense, a fundamentally 0:05:59.013 --> 0:06:02.333 unstable structure that can be blown away at any time 0:06:02.373 --> 0:06:05.373 by a strong gust of wind and a storm is 0:06:05.453 --> 0:06:08.973 brewing across the border. Then there was my favorite comment 0:06:09.893 --> 0:06:14.013 from kerch Schlichter, who wrote this on x before the 0:06:14.013 --> 0:06:18.293 polls closed. He said, I sure hope Trump does not 0:06:18.493 --> 0:06:22.213 cause Canadians to elect the guy who is quite liberal, 0:06:22.613 --> 0:06:26.253 believes in climate change, won't rule out sending Canadian troops 0:06:26.253 --> 0:06:30.213 to fight in Ukraine, wants massive immigration, and wants to 0:06:30.293 --> 0:06:34.333 maintain imbalanced trade with the United States, over the other 0:06:34.373 --> 0:06:38.053 guy who does but who had a couple of videos 0:06:38.373 --> 0:06:43.053 where he frustrates reporters that amused American conservatives. Although that 0:06:43.173 --> 0:06:55.533 was very clever. Now after a short break, Rameshakur. Now, 0:06:55.573 --> 0:06:58.853 for those of you who've been listening for a few years, 0:06:59.053 --> 0:07:02.373 and I speak specifically about the radio program, you'd be 0:07:02.413 --> 0:07:05.333 aware of the name of Lance Green. Lance Green and 0:07:05.373 --> 0:07:08.213 I have been made for a long time. We established 0:07:08.213 --> 0:07:13.213 that relationship through doing some joint ventures in tourism, like 0:07:13.293 --> 0:07:16.293 we would take tours away. We started with the New Orleans. 0:07:16.293 --> 0:07:20.413 We ended up in Europe and particularly Italy. Lance has 0:07:20.453 --> 0:07:23.853 been quiet for the last few years COVID, etc. And 0:07:23.893 --> 0:07:27.133 he's now emerged with something different and I think enticing 0:07:27.773 --> 0:07:31.613 one word in his mind he writes best described Sicily 0:07:31.893 --> 0:07:35.173 extreme in the most beautiful way. Why would he say this? 0:07:35.573 --> 0:07:39.333 Sicily is a tapestry woven from threads of various cultures 0:07:39.773 --> 0:07:42.173 that have shaped the island over centuries, resulting in a 0:07:42.253 --> 0:07:44.813 unique blend of flavors and traditions. I've only been to 0:07:44.853 --> 0:07:47.093 Sicily once and I love it. I know other people 0:07:47.133 --> 0:07:50.093 who've been time and time again. Lance has organized something 0:07:50.133 --> 0:07:53.733 for the second half of June, and it's very special 0:07:53.893 --> 0:07:57.293 and it's only for a very small number of people. 0:07:57.493 --> 0:08:01.853 The journey focuses on two destinations, castell Mare de Gulfo 0:08:01.973 --> 0:08:05.413 and Palermo, it's designed to immerse us in the environment 0:08:05.773 --> 0:08:08.613 where we're staying, no rushing from place to place. Now, 0:08:08.613 --> 0:08:13.533 this journey is for no more than eight guests. Tolder 0:08:13.653 --> 0:08:18.173 was small and if you would like further information then 0:08:18.733 --> 0:08:23.133 you need to contact Lance by email at Lance at 0:08:23.253 --> 0:08:27.973 Lance Green dot endz, Lance at Lance Green dot en 0:08:28.133 --> 0:08:31.173 z and he will fill you in with all the detail. 0:08:31.653 --> 0:08:34.453 But you better be quick, I think, because this is 0:08:34.493 --> 0:08:36.013 only for a few people. 0:08:36.813 --> 0:08:37.973 Layton Smith. 0:08:46.933 --> 0:08:49.893 Ramesh the Kur is well known to most of the 0:08:50.053 --> 0:08:52.533 people listening to the podcast. For those who are not 0:08:52.653 --> 0:08:56.173 quite so familiar or those who need a reminder, he 0:08:56.293 --> 0:09:00.093 is an emeritus professor from the Crawford School of Public 0:09:00.093 --> 0:09:03.573 Policy at the Australian National University. Prior to that, he 0:09:03.733 --> 0:09:06.253 was at a Tiger University for a number of years. 0:09:06.733 --> 0:09:10.853 He has also taught in other places, including Hong Kong 0:09:11.573 --> 0:09:16.893 and in Britain. And should I include Canada there, Yes, 0:09:17.453 --> 0:09:20.773 of course, and that's very important. We'll get onto that 0:09:20.813 --> 0:09:22.773 short pig. But it's very good to have you back 0:09:22.813 --> 0:09:25.693 on the podcast, and I thank you. 0:09:25.693 --> 0:09:27.933 You're welcome listener. It's good to be back. Thank you 0:09:27.973 --> 0:09:28.693 for having me again. 0:09:29.773 --> 0:09:34.093 You have just returned from a three week journey. I 0:09:34.213 --> 0:09:38.533 understand to Singapore and London. Feel free to cough if 0:09:38.533 --> 0:09:40.813 you need to after picking up a bug on the plane, 0:09:41.253 --> 0:09:44.053 but I want to I want to start with a 0:09:44.173 --> 0:09:48.013 very general question because I have a long list of, 0:09:48.413 --> 0:09:52.333 shall we say, headers that I would love to get into. 0:09:52.733 --> 0:09:55.933 There is much going on in the world. There are 0:09:55.933 --> 0:09:59.693 people who are even here in this country who are 0:10:00.013 --> 0:10:03.413 very nervous about where things might be headed. But there 0:10:03.413 --> 0:10:06.053 are so many things happening, and they're happening, some of 0:10:06.093 --> 0:10:11.053 them predictable, others are happening from out of darkness. So 0:10:11.133 --> 0:10:14.133 it seems I'm sure you agree with what I've said. 0:10:14.933 --> 0:10:17.733 What I'm interested to know from you is what is 0:10:17.773 --> 0:10:21.933 the connection do you think between things that are happening 0:10:22.133 --> 0:10:25.493 in different parts of the world that maybe seem to 0:10:25.533 --> 0:10:26.373 have no connection. 0:10:27.333 --> 0:10:30.413 I think the shortest answer to that, which obviously I'm 0:10:30.413 --> 0:10:34.093 going to elaborate on, is that there is a definite 0:10:34.493 --> 0:10:37.933 thingdisiacal air about it, that we're coming to the end 0:10:37.973 --> 0:10:41.893 of one major era and transforming into another. So if 0:10:41.893 --> 0:10:46.013 we are in the midst of a transformative change, and 0:10:46.053 --> 0:10:51.213 hence the sense of unease and volatility and instability, but 0:10:51.293 --> 0:10:56.893 that has both domestic and international components, and it spreads 0:10:56.933 --> 0:11:06.293 across political, economic, trade, environmental, social, cultural issues, etc. And 0:11:06.453 --> 0:11:09.693 all of that adds to this growing sense of unease 0:11:10.653 --> 0:11:15.453 and anxiety, even as to aviare headed, who are potential 0:11:15.493 --> 0:11:18.373 allies and trends on the one side and adversaries and 0:11:18.493 --> 0:11:21.333 enemies on the other, Are we in fact going to 0:11:21.453 --> 0:11:25.333 end up with a major war? Bearing in mind that 0:11:25.693 --> 0:11:30.613 such major transformation in the past have been unleashed as 0:11:30.653 --> 0:11:34.813 a result of wars, which themselves have come at the 0:11:34.853 --> 0:11:38.853 moments of transition. So I think there is justified fear 0:11:38.973 --> 0:11:43.093 and anxiety. The great unknown is known and knowns if 0:11:43.093 --> 0:11:48.173 you like, and I doubt that anyone can predict what 0:11:48.373 --> 0:11:51.413 will come out into in the world on the other 0:11:51.453 --> 0:11:52.533 side of this turmoil. 0:11:52.973 --> 0:11:56.253 How much of a restraint do you think nuclear weapons are. 0:11:57.053 --> 0:12:01.133 It's a restraint, but it's a minor restraint. I've always 0:12:01.413 --> 0:12:04.933 thought that its role was exaggerated. Yes, it adds an 0:12:04.973 --> 0:12:08.293 element of caution, but it doesn't really change the un 0:12:08.413 --> 0:12:13.813 the mine underlying dynamics, and it certainly doesn't affect the 0:12:13.853 --> 0:12:17.493 domestic issues all that much. If you think of environmental 0:12:17.533 --> 0:12:24.933 issues there the trading order it introduced elements of caution. 0:12:26.773 --> 0:12:29.053 People might be more hesitant to go to a lot 0:12:29.093 --> 0:12:31.093 of war than they were in the past, but that 0:12:31.173 --> 0:12:34.093 doesn't mean that wars have become history and that the 0:12:34.213 --> 0:12:38.493 use of force has been ruled out. Exhibit A, Russia 0:12:38.573 --> 0:12:41.453 and Ukraine, Exhibit B. The Middle East. 0:12:42.173 --> 0:12:48.293 There is as we speak, also a constant change in politics. 0:12:48.733 --> 0:12:52.613 I mean, at the moment as we speak, the Canadian 0:12:52.653 --> 0:12:54.813 election is being held. It's got a couple of hours 0:12:54.813 --> 0:12:57.853 to go before and a thing comes to the fore. 0:12:59.173 --> 0:13:03.373 So we'll leave that to others. But on your trip, 0:13:03.413 --> 0:13:08.133 of course to London, you undoubtedly had conversation with people 0:13:08.333 --> 0:13:13.133 about the about the local elections in Britain and then 0:13:13.453 --> 0:13:16.653 and then of course and you being in Australia, so 0:13:16.733 --> 0:13:20.973 this involves you. You have the Australian election in three 0:13:21.053 --> 0:13:23.893 or four days time, so give us your thoughts. And 0:13:23.893 --> 0:13:27.213 I'm particularly interested in in what you picked up from 0:13:27.653 --> 0:13:31.773 the local body election in Britain. 0:13:33.053 --> 0:13:37.813 Okay, again, let me break it into two sets of issues, 0:13:37.893 --> 0:13:42.253 one domestic one international. I think domestically, there is a 0:13:42.333 --> 0:13:49.653 very pronounced sense that democracy is under stress across the 0:13:49.693 --> 0:13:53.573 Western world, if not further beyond. And what we've seen 0:13:53.693 --> 0:13:57.773 is decades of the so called mass to the institutions 0:13:58.053 --> 0:14:03.733 by the center left and the social justice activists and 0:14:03.773 --> 0:14:13.853 the misnamed progressives, which has embedded cultural and social policies 0:14:14.213 --> 0:14:19.373 from one side of the archeological spectrum into the dominant institutions. 0:14:20.213 --> 0:14:24.773 And as the political atmosphere or landscape changes, they are 0:14:24.853 --> 0:14:29.893 mounting a ferocious resistance two attempts to reset the balance 0:14:30.373 --> 0:14:34.853 into a more traditional, to the most traditional center. And 0:14:34.893 --> 0:14:37.413 we've seen that in Europe and the rise of people 0:14:37.533 --> 0:14:42.413 like Giorgio Mulioni in Italy, center right parties in the Netherlands, 0:14:42.853 --> 0:14:46.893 center right parties rising to the four quite dramatically in Germany, 0:14:48.253 --> 0:14:53.573 in France. Reformed UK is part of that. Pierre Polieva 0:14:53.733 --> 0:14:57.933 in Canada was on the ascendant quite substantially for months 0:14:57.933 --> 0:15:01.893 and months and months until the governing Liberal Party replaced 0:15:02.453 --> 0:15:05.733 Justin Trudeau with Mark Karney. And I think if it 0:15:05.853 --> 0:15:09.213 had elections in another month, Kolievo would have been home comfortably. 0:15:09.733 --> 0:15:12.853 As we speak, it's on the knife page. And in 0:15:12.893 --> 0:15:17.893 Australia the Liberal should have been in this similar position. 0:15:18.813 --> 0:15:22.493 But I have to say this is a single most 0:15:22.933 --> 0:15:28.173 inept campaign I've experienced anywhere in the world from a 0:15:28.213 --> 0:15:32.093 center right party that had so many open goals to 0:15:32.093 --> 0:15:34.413 shoot that maybe is so confused that doesn't know which 0:15:34.453 --> 0:15:37.933 goal to aim at and as a result is shooting 0:15:37.973 --> 0:15:41.093 all over the ground that anywherey other, anywhere but the goal. 0:15:41.733 --> 0:15:45.293 So it looks like Anthony Albanesi and Labor will be 0:15:45.333 --> 0:15:49.613 back in. But we have a paradoxical situation where Poles 0:15:49.653 --> 0:15:56.053 confirm the widespread sense that Labor deserves to lose, but 0:15:56.133 --> 0:15:59.173 the Liberals don't deserve to win, and that is something 0:15:59.253 --> 0:16:02.933 again that I haven't experienced elsewhere. So we'll see how 0:16:02.973 --> 0:16:05.893 that goes as well. But the issues that are under 0:16:05.893 --> 0:16:10.573 contention in all these countries are backlash to net zero, 0:16:10.653 --> 0:16:14.293 and you'll have seen overnight as we speak, the massive 0:16:14.933 --> 0:16:19.133 power blackouts in Spain and Portugal and the good chance 0:16:19.173 --> 0:16:24.133 that they result from the switch to unreliables from the 0:16:24.173 --> 0:16:27.973 good old reliables of fossil fuel and nuclear power. They 0:16:28.053 --> 0:16:32.133 include elements of DEI and a pushback against that, with 0:16:32.253 --> 0:16:36.733 many firms now starting to react to that. They include 0:16:37.133 --> 0:16:44.573 elements of gender identity and the insanity of insisting that 0:16:44.733 --> 0:16:49.453 biology is less real than self perception, and the problems 0:16:49.453 --> 0:16:52.693 that they have caused. And remember for Trump, it's now 0:16:52.733 --> 0:16:56.133 I admit that that a single most effective campaign slogan 0:16:56.533 --> 0:17:00.133 against the Democrats was Trump is for you, Kamala Harris 0:17:00.213 --> 0:17:03.173 is for their them, referring to the pronouns. 0:17:02.773 --> 0:17:06.973 Was And then even more importantly in a sense, if 0:17:07.013 --> 0:17:11.333 you take this to the internet dimension, the pushback against 0:17:11.453 --> 0:17:15.893 globalization on the trade front and globalism. 0:17:15.293 --> 0:17:18.933 On the political front, and the real emergence of hard 0:17:19.013 --> 0:17:25.893 frontiers the state and a desire to reclaim national identity 0:17:27.053 --> 0:17:29.973 and the sense that national identity has been lost to 0:17:30.413 --> 0:17:35.973 ideological extremism. And at the end of the day, we 0:17:36.093 --> 0:17:42.453 are citizens of political systems, not economic systems, and desire 0:17:42.533 --> 0:17:47.573 to reprioritize politics and make politics control economics rather than 0:17:47.653 --> 0:17:50.613 be subservient to it. So that's a wise spread phenomenon, 0:17:50.653 --> 0:17:54.413 and then the Trump policies come into that. But internationally, 0:17:54.453 --> 0:18:00.013 if the state is back, then inevitably we are witnessing 0:18:00.053 --> 0:18:05.973 the return of geopolitics and the retreat of global institutions, 0:18:06.253 --> 0:18:09.213 and the sense that global institutions have begun to dominate 0:18:09.293 --> 0:18:12.893 the nation states instead of being servant to the nation states. 0:18:13.013 --> 0:18:16.973 And that also goes across a number of fronts and 0:18:17.053 --> 0:18:21.413 included the reaction with the policies on COVID management as well. 0:18:21.933 --> 0:18:25.133 So there's a lot of disparate issues, but there is 0:18:25.173 --> 0:18:28.653 a way of connecting the dots in these terms of 0:18:29.333 --> 0:18:35.053 resetting the normative dominant normative points for governing both domestic 0:18:35.573 --> 0:18:40.733 and international regimes and political systems and therefore effectively governing 0:18:40.733 --> 0:18:46.053 our lives. And they're very pronounced. Desire for citizens to 0:18:46.173 --> 0:18:51.213 reassert control over the processes instead of being norm takers 0:18:51.213 --> 0:18:55.333 and value takers and economy takers, etc. And the pushback 0:18:55.373 --> 0:19:00.653 against technocratic expertise, which has been proven to be not 0:19:00.853 --> 0:19:01.293 very smart. 0:19:01.333 --> 0:19:04.733 At the end of the day, you have provided me 0:19:04.973 --> 0:19:11.733 with almost countless exits along the way to pursue some 0:19:11.813 --> 0:19:14.133 of the things that you that you mentioned. 0:19:15.493 --> 0:19:17.453 Well, it is a time for a big picture look 0:19:17.533 --> 0:19:18.573 and analysis, I think. 0:19:18.853 --> 0:19:21.373 But there are things, there are certain things happening that 0:19:22.293 --> 0:19:25.293 are counter to what and I agree with what you said, 0:19:25.333 --> 0:19:29.173 by the way that that count counter what you said 0:19:29.453 --> 0:19:33.173 and what and what I agree with I mean, for instance, 0:19:33.653 --> 0:19:39.013 the situation with judicial matters all over the well what 0:19:39.053 --> 0:19:42.773 we what we call the Western world, but mainly in 0:19:42.973 --> 0:19:48.813 the anglosphere, and stretching a little beyond but specifically. 0:19:48.253 --> 0:19:51.653 The Germany and coming also yeah, yeah. 0:19:52.173 --> 0:19:56.133 Is something that would confuse a lot of people. I think. So, 0:19:56.133 --> 0:20:02.013 so here's here's the question. It's happening in Australia, it's 0:20:02.013 --> 0:20:04.973 happening in New Zealand, it's happening specifically in America, and 0:20:05.013 --> 0:20:07.373 I think that's where it kicked off in Britain and 0:20:07.533 --> 0:20:10.133 the other and the other place. As you mentioned, why 0:20:10.813 --> 0:20:11.533 is it happening? 0:20:12.173 --> 0:20:22.813 I think we've been presented with certain ideological perspectives dressed 0:20:22.893 --> 0:20:28.533 up as scientific consensus and facts. Take environment net zero, 0:20:28.773 --> 0:20:32.653 climate change what used to be global warming. Until things change, 0:20:33.253 --> 0:20:36.213 It's hard to argue that science is settled, because science 0:20:36.253 --> 0:20:39.293 is always work in progress. But if you get the 0:20:39.373 --> 0:20:44.693 illusion of scientific consensus, then you engage in de legitimization 0:20:44.813 --> 0:20:48.573 of any opposing points of view by attaching the labeled 0:20:48.613 --> 0:20:53.213 denialism and deniers picking up on the pejorative views of 0:20:53.253 --> 0:20:57.213 that with regard to those who for example, deny the Holocaust, 0:20:58.173 --> 0:21:02.893 and COVID fell into that as well, and well credential 0:21:02.973 --> 0:21:08.093 people who raised skeptical questions about what was being done 0:21:08.853 --> 0:21:13.293 or quickly pushed away from the public square and deny 0:21:13.373 --> 0:21:17.973 the voice and stuff Now if you extend that, then 0:21:18.533 --> 0:21:21.333 what happens is people with a different point of view. 0:21:22.173 --> 0:21:25.893 Our treat is not as people with a different but 0:21:26.093 --> 0:21:30.253 legitimate point of view who need to be engaged within conversation, 0:21:31.093 --> 0:21:33.653 but people who are science denies at the end of 0:21:33.653 --> 0:21:36.613 the day, even evil and deserve to be hounded out 0:21:36.653 --> 0:21:41.933 of the public space. And then political leaders go down 0:21:42.013 --> 0:21:44.453 that path, you say, well, we can use the law 0:21:45.173 --> 0:21:48.533 to put them in jail. So the long efforts to 0:21:48.653 --> 0:21:53.893 use weaponized laarfare against Trump, the things they're doing in 0:21:53.933 --> 0:21:58.173 Germany in denying legitimacy and trying to suppress. 0:21:57.693 --> 0:22:03.373 The AfD, the verdict against Marine le Pen in France, 0:22:04.533 --> 0:22:07.813 and talking to me, you mentioned my visit to the 0:22:07.893 --> 0:22:09.373 UK to talking to people there. 0:22:10.933 --> 0:22:16.053 I hadn't realized, but they are afraid that the slightest 0:22:16.093 --> 0:22:20.133 opportunity the laws will be used to silence and perhaps 0:22:20.213 --> 0:22:24.453 even imprisoned Nigel Farage, so he's got to be extremely 0:22:24.533 --> 0:22:28.453 careful in things he says. So there is that sense of, 0:22:28.813 --> 0:22:30.493 you know, the phrase that has become common in the 0:22:30.573 --> 0:22:34.213 UK to fear justice, and it's hard to deny the 0:22:34.253 --> 0:22:37.893 reality of that in the UK and in the US 0:22:38.333 --> 0:22:41.573 and in other places. So yes, there is a sense 0:22:41.693 --> 0:22:45.293 that law which should be impartial and objective, and no 0:22:45.333 --> 0:22:47.373 one is above the law, but no one is under 0:22:47.413 --> 0:22:50.013 the law, and that everyone is equal and deserves the 0:22:50.053 --> 0:22:53.533 equal protection of the law. That sense seems to have 0:22:53.533 --> 0:22:56.693 been thrown out, and there is again a lot of 0:22:56.773 --> 0:23:00.093 unease over that. So I said at the start that 0:23:00.213 --> 0:23:04.293 democracy is under stress, but I think there is a 0:23:04.493 --> 0:23:08.733 deep division as to whether the greater threat to demoocracy 0:23:09.093 --> 0:23:13.373 comes from the right or the left. And as one example, 0:23:13.413 --> 0:23:17.333 as one if you like trivia, yet telling example of 0:23:17.333 --> 0:23:20.853 that is you can have a very interesting and real 0:23:20.893 --> 0:23:24.453 debate on whether the greater threat to democracy and our 0:23:24.493 --> 0:23:28.813 freedoms comes from censorship of free speech. And that is 0:23:28.813 --> 0:23:31.813 something that we are all undergoing as well. But to 0:23:31.853 --> 0:23:33.933 say that you can't have the debate that there is 0:23:33.933 --> 0:23:38.413 no compensation. That's what has happened across a range of issues, 0:23:38.853 --> 0:23:40.493 and people are repelling against that. 0:23:40.613 --> 0:23:46.333 I think it's intriguing because I've been battling against the 0:23:46.373 --> 0:23:51.013 scam of man made climate change for decades and we 0:23:51.133 --> 0:23:54.893 got to the point where you started to wonder if 0:23:54.933 --> 0:23:57.373 it was really worth it. Well, it was, of course, 0:23:57.893 --> 0:24:00.973 but all of a sudden from seemingly out of nowhere. 0:24:02.053 --> 0:24:05.973 It started to turn, and it's turning. It's turning very 0:24:06.013 --> 0:24:09.573 strongly in some areas, except New Zealand. We have a 0:24:09.973 --> 0:24:14.693 supposedly right of center government elected last year and they're 0:24:14.693 --> 0:24:20.853 pursuing the net zero full force. It's just absurd in 0:24:20.893 --> 0:24:21.613 the first place. 0:24:22.093 --> 0:24:24.013 I think on that later, and it helps to break 0:24:24.053 --> 0:24:26.933 it down into different components of the tibate. One is 0:24:26.933 --> 0:24:34.573 the science, and this claim to scientific consensus is very questionable. Now. Also, 0:24:34.693 --> 0:24:39.533 of course, science doesn't rely on majority opinion. It can 0:24:39.573 --> 0:24:41.973 be overturned with time, and it does change with time, 0:24:42.813 --> 0:24:47.813 so there is a genuine quot for questioning the basic 0:24:47.853 --> 0:24:51.573 thesis and the details of the science. Second, even if 0:24:51.613 --> 0:24:55.253 you agree or have a majority view on science, there's 0:24:55.293 --> 0:24:59.013 still the question of how you convert that into public policy. 0:24:59.653 --> 0:25:03.053 And the third part, separate from that, is the politics 0:25:03.053 --> 0:25:06.133 of it. If you have a consensus amongst the governing 0:25:06.173 --> 0:25:08.933 elite and the ruling elite, and the cultural elit and 0:25:08.973 --> 0:25:12.253 the economists and the environmentalists, you still have to deal 0:25:12.373 --> 0:25:17.533 with the fact that there are serious empirical consequences of 0:25:17.613 --> 0:25:23.333 climate change policies which will result in impoverishment and emiseration 0:25:23.453 --> 0:25:29.253 of people's substantial drop in lifestyles and a transfer of 0:25:29.333 --> 0:25:34.133 wealth and power to potential enemies internationally. And then you think, well, 0:25:34.453 --> 0:25:38.773 what is the contribution of Australia and the UK in 0:25:38.813 --> 0:25:43.453 the global issue on the global landscape environmental landscape? And 0:25:43.493 --> 0:25:47.373 the answer it's very very modest. If VIEWO to reach 0:25:47.533 --> 0:25:51.693 near zero tomorrow for practical purposes, given the existing policies 0:25:52.093 --> 0:25:56.373 of China, Russia, India and now in the United States, 0:25:56.813 --> 0:25:59.293 that would not even amount to a drop in the bucket. 0:25:59.933 --> 0:26:01.853 Now if you extend that to New Zealand, it becomes 0:26:01.853 --> 0:26:06.733 even more absurd. So why should we accept substantial drops 0:26:06.773 --> 0:26:10.693 in our living standards? Then that makes not the slightest 0:26:10.693 --> 0:26:15.453 different to the overall goal. How many call for stations 0:26:15.453 --> 0:26:20.893 and are being opened by China and by India every month? 0:26:21.053 --> 0:26:24.173 Well, I think I think I need to inject another 0:26:24.253 --> 0:26:29.693 aspect of this debate, and that is the media and 0:26:29.813 --> 0:26:33.373 the media. The media in different sets in different parts 0:26:33.373 --> 0:26:38.133 of the world has had different different approaches. In New 0:26:38.253 --> 0:26:42.213 Zealand and you would probably be familiar, the media put 0:26:42.533 --> 0:26:46.173 a blank on it. They won't discuss it, they won't 0:26:46.933 --> 0:26:51.773 they won't entertain anything. But the official line. Now I'll 0:26:51.773 --> 0:26:54.693 give you two. I'll give you two responses, relatively recently 0:26:55.413 --> 0:26:59.973 over the last few months, two queries to various people 0:27:00.093 --> 0:27:05.773 in positions of shall we say unfortunately authority. One answer 0:27:05.933 --> 0:27:09.853 to a to a serious question was well, you've got 0:27:09.893 --> 0:27:13.813 your science and we've got our science, and we believe 0:27:13.853 --> 0:27:18.133 our science. End of story, end of discussion. I challenged 0:27:19.293 --> 0:27:22.493 various people too, in particular Prime Minister and the Prime 0:27:22.533 --> 0:27:26.853 Minister Scientific Advisor, over the years over it, and it 0:27:27.053 --> 0:27:32.053 was it was The reaction was simply, this is what 0:27:32.093 --> 0:27:35.973 the science says and that's where we're going with it. 0:27:36.613 --> 0:27:40.093 And that's the end of it. Again, no discussion. And 0:27:40.173 --> 0:27:43.653 if you if you put up somebody to discuss somebody 0:27:43.733 --> 0:27:47.013 of authority, no one will turn up. No one will 0:27:47.013 --> 0:27:49.413 take them on. We witness that here on a number 0:27:49.413 --> 0:27:51.853 of occasions over a good ten years. 0:27:52.693 --> 0:27:55.533 Anyway, The old thing on that is the same people, 0:27:55.573 --> 0:27:59.573