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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks ed B.

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Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of the now, the Leyton

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Speaker 1: Smith podcast, cowered by News Talks ed B.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to podcast two hundred and eighty two for April thirty,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty five. Ramesh the Kerr honors us with his

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Speaker 2: appearance this week. Now most of you are familiar with

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Speaker 2: Ramesh the Kur, I think he excels himself on this occasion.

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Speaker 2: Discussion runs about an hour and a quarter and it

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Speaker 2: refers to many headline topics. For those who are unfamiliar

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Speaker 2: with Ramesh, here are his qualifications. Have borrowed them from

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Speaker 2: the Lowe Institute in Sydney. Ramesh the Kerr is Emeritus

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Speaker 2: Professor in the Crawford School of Public Policy the Australian

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Speaker 2: National University, a Fellow of the Australian Institute of International

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Speaker 2: Affairs and Brownstone Institute. Senior Scott up I was Senior

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Speaker 2: Vice Rector of the United Nations University and Assistant Secretary

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Speaker 2: General of the United Nations. Educated in India and Canada.

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Speaker 2: He was a Professor of International Relations at the University

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Speaker 2: of Otago in New Zealand, Professor and head of the

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Speaker 2: Peace Research Center at the ANU, and Foundation Director of

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Speaker 2: the Balcilly School of International Affairs in Waterloo, Ontario. He

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Speaker 2: has also served as a consultant and advisor to the Australian,

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Speaker 2: New Zealand and Norwegian governments on arms control, also on

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Speaker 2: disarmament and international security issues. He was a commissioner and

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Speaker 2: one of the principal authors of the Responsibility to Protect

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Speaker 2: and senior advisor on reforms and principal writer of the

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Speaker 2: United Nations Secretary General KOFE and NaN's Second Reform Report

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Speaker 2: of two thousand and two and We're Not Done. The

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Speaker 2: author or editor of new, umerous books, chapters in books

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Speaker 2: and journal articles, Professor the Kerr has also been a

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Speaker 2: regular contributor to media outlets, served on the international advisory

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Speaker 2: boards of institutes in Africa, Asia, Europe and North America,

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Speaker 2: and was the editor in chief of Global Governance twenty

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Speaker 2: thirteen to twenty eighteen. His books include The United Nations

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Speaker 2: Peace and Security From Collective Security to the Responsibility to Protect,

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Speaker 2: published by Cambridge University Press twenty seventeen, Global Governance and

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Speaker 2: the un An Unfinished Journey from Indiana University Press in

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Speaker 2: twenty ten. The Responsibility to Protect Norm's Laws and the

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Speaker 2: Use of Force in International Politics came out in twenty eleven,

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Speaker 2: The Oxford Handbook of Modern Diplomacy, Oxford University Press, That's

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Speaker 2: No Surprise twenty thirteen, Theorizing The Responsibility to Protect Cambridge

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Speaker 2: University Press, twenty fifteen. And The Nuclear Band Treaty, A

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Speaker 2: Transformational reframing of the Global Nuclear Order, published in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty two. Now, I know that was a long, well

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Speaker 2: sort of introduction, but keep in mind that the knowledge

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Speaker 2: and experience that he has guarded over a lengthy lifetime

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Speaker 2: of work in various areas, as you've heard, qualifies him

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Speaker 2: for respect for the opinions that he expresses, and there

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Speaker 2: are many of them in the interview to follow, And

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Speaker 2: here is a shortlist of some of the things that

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Speaker 2: we touch on. Judicial activity, which is creeping, whiles not

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Speaker 2: creeping in its racing up the scale of concern in

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Speaker 2: much of the world India and Pakistan as a result

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Speaker 2: of the recent heated clash China. The World Economic Forum.

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Speaker 2: You'll be interested in his comments the United Nations, the WHO. Oh,

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Speaker 2: you'll be interested in his opinion on the WHO hospital systems,

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Speaker 2: mass migration, and the Canadian election. We touch on well,

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Speaker 2: I do briefly in mentioning because that was that was

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Speaker 2: yesterday and we were recording at the time when I

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Speaker 2: think they were about two hours to go before the

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Speaker 2: before the polling closed. So with that in mind, before

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Speaker 2: we get to Ramesh, let me lead with Mark Karney's

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Speaker 2: House of Cards, which is published by American Affairs and

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Speaker 2: its senior editor Michael Suwenka. Two narratives were at play

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Speaker 2: in Canada's election. Either the Great White Norse was going

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Speaker 2: to continue on its liberal sonder weeg. Sonderweg. It's a

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Speaker 2: word I'd not come across before, so I checked it out.

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Speaker 2: It relates to the Weimar Democracy is the simplest way

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Speaker 2: to put it, anyway, to continue on its liberal sounderweg,

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Speaker 2: rejecting the right populist surge that has erupted elsewhere in

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Speaker 2: the West. Or it was going to take the same

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Speaker 2: plunge into the unknown that their American and British cousins

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Speaker 2: had taken with Trump and Brexit. And from there I

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Speaker 2: jumped straight to the closing paragraph. At the start of

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Speaker 2: his ministry, Mark Carney made a bizarre gesture. He winked

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Speaker 2: at the camera as if to cross the fourth wall

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Speaker 2: and communicate with someone to those something to those watching

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Speaker 2: on social media. Karne was then compared with the protagonist

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Speaker 2: of the House of Cards, a shrewd Macavelian figure who

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Speaker 2: comes in from the shadows to seize and hold power

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Speaker 2: against great odds. Instead, what we Canadians got was a

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Speaker 2: house of cards in the more literal sense, a fundamentally

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Speaker 2: unstable structure that can be blown away at any time

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Speaker 2: by a strong gust of wind and a storm is

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Speaker 2: brewing across the border. Then there was my favorite comment

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Speaker 2: from kerch Schlichter, who wrote this on x before the

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Speaker 2: polls closed. He said, I sure hope Trump does not

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Speaker 2: cause Canadians to elect the guy who is quite liberal,

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Speaker 2: believes in climate change, won't rule out sending Canadian troops

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Speaker 2: to fight in Ukraine, wants massive immigration, and wants to

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Speaker 2: maintain imbalanced trade with the United States, over the other

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Speaker 2: guy who does but who had a couple of videos

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Speaker 2: where he frustrates reporters that amused American conservatives. Although that

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Speaker 2: was very clever. Now after a short break, Rameshakur. Now,

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Speaker 2: for those of you who've been listening for a few years,

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Speaker 2: and I speak specifically about the radio program, you'd be

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Speaker 2: aware of the name of Lance Green. Lance Green and

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Speaker 2: I have been made for a long time. We established

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Speaker 2: that relationship through doing some joint ventures in tourism, like

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Speaker 2: we would take tours away. We started with the New Orleans.

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Speaker 2: We ended up in Europe and particularly Italy. Lance has

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Speaker 2: been quiet for the last few years COVID, etc. And

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Speaker 2: he's now emerged with something different and I think enticing

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Speaker 2: one word in his mind he writes best described Sicily

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Speaker 2: extreme in the most beautiful way. Why would he say this?

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Speaker 2: Sicily is a tapestry woven from threads of various cultures

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Speaker 2: that have shaped the island over centuries, resulting in a

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Speaker 2: unique blend of flavors and traditions. I've only been to

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Speaker 2: Sicily once and I love it. I know other people

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Speaker 2: who've been time and time again. Lance has organized something

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Speaker 2: for the second half of June, and it's very special

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Speaker 2: and it's only for a very small number of people.

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Speaker 2: The journey focuses on two destinations, castell Mare de Gulfo

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Speaker 2: and Palermo, it's designed to immerse us in the environment

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Speaker 2: where we're staying, no rushing from place to place. Now,

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Speaker 2: this journey is for no more than eight guests. Tolder

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Speaker 2: was small and if you would like further information then

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Speaker 2: you need to contact Lance by email at Lance at

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Speaker 2: Lance Green dot endz, Lance at Lance Green dot en

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Speaker 2: z and he will fill you in with all the detail.

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Speaker 2: But you better be quick, I think, because this is

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Speaker 2: only for a few people.

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Speaker 1: Layton Smith.

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Speaker 2: Ramesh the Kur is well known to most of the

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Speaker 2: people listening to the podcast. For those who are not

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Speaker 2: quite so familiar or those who need a reminder, he

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Speaker 2: is an emeritus professor from the Crawford School of Public

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Speaker 2: Policy at the Australian National University. Prior to that, he

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Speaker 2: was at a Tiger University for a number of years.

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Speaker 2: He has also taught in other places, including Hong Kong

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Speaker 2: and in Britain. And should I include Canada there, Yes,

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Speaker 2: of course, and that's very important. We'll get onto that

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Speaker 2: short pig. But it's very good to have you back

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Speaker 2: on the podcast, and I thank you.

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Speaker 3: You're welcome listener. It's good to be back. Thank you

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Speaker 3: for having me again.

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Speaker 2: You have just returned from a three week journey. I

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Speaker 2: understand to Singapore and London. Feel free to cough if

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Speaker 2: you need to after picking up a bug on the plane,

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Speaker 2: but I want to I want to start with a

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Speaker 2: very general question because I have a long list of,

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Speaker 2: shall we say, headers that I would love to get into.

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Speaker 2: There is much going on in the world. There are

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Speaker 2: people who are even here in this country who are

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Speaker 2: very nervous about where things might be headed. But there

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Speaker 2: are so many things happening, and they're happening, some of

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Speaker 2: them predictable, others are happening from out of darkness. So

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Speaker 2: it seems I'm sure you agree with what I've said.

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Speaker 2: What I'm interested to know from you is what is

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Speaker 2: the connection do you think between things that are happening

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Speaker 2: in different parts of the world that maybe seem to

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Speaker 2: have no connection.

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Speaker 3: I think the shortest answer to that, which obviously I'm

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Speaker 3: going to elaborate on, is that there is a definite

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Speaker 3: thingdisiacal air about it, that we're coming to the end

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Speaker 3: of one major era and transforming into another. So if

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Speaker 3: we are in the midst of a transformative change, and

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Speaker 3: hence the sense of unease and volatility and instability, but

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Speaker 3: that has both domestic and international components, and it spreads

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Speaker 3: across political, economic, trade, environmental, social, cultural issues, etc. And

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Speaker 3: all of that adds to this growing sense of unease

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Speaker 3: and anxiety, even as to aviare headed, who are potential

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Speaker 3: allies and trends on the one side and adversaries and

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Speaker 3: enemies on the other, Are we in fact going to

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Speaker 3: end up with a major war? Bearing in mind that

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Speaker 3: such major transformation in the past have been unleashed as

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Speaker 3: a result of wars, which themselves have come at the

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Speaker 3: moments of transition. So I think there is justified fear

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Speaker 3: and anxiety. The great unknown is known and knowns if

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Speaker 3: you like, and I doubt that anyone can predict what

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Speaker 3: will come out into in the world on the other

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Speaker 3: side of this turmoil.

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Speaker 2: How much of a restraint do you think nuclear weapons are.

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Speaker 3: It's a restraint, but it's a minor restraint. I've always

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Speaker 3: thought that its role was exaggerated. Yes, it adds an

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Speaker 3: element of caution, but it doesn't really change the un

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Speaker 3: the mine underlying dynamics, and it certainly doesn't affect the

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Speaker 3: domestic issues all that much. If you think of environmental

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Speaker 3: issues there the trading order it introduced elements of caution.

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Speaker 3: People might be more hesitant to go to a lot

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Speaker 3: of war than they were in the past, but that

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Speaker 3: doesn't mean that wars have become history and that the

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Speaker 3: use of force has been ruled out. Exhibit A, Russia

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Speaker 3: and Ukraine, Exhibit B. The Middle East.

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Speaker 2: There is as we speak, also a constant change in politics.

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Speaker 2: I mean, at the moment as we speak, the Canadian

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Speaker 2: election is being held. It's got a couple of hours

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Speaker 2: to go before and a thing comes to the fore.

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Speaker 2: So we'll leave that to others. But on your trip,

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Speaker 2: of course to London, you undoubtedly had conversation with people

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Speaker 2: about the about the local elections in Britain and then

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Speaker 2: and then of course and you being in Australia, so

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Speaker 2: this involves you. You have the Australian election in three

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Speaker 2: or four days time, so give us your thoughts. And

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Speaker 2: I'm particularly interested in in what you picked up from

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Speaker 2: the local body election in Britain.

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Speaker 3: Okay, again, let me break it into two sets of issues,

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Speaker 3: one domestic one international. I think domestically, there is a

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Speaker 3: very pronounced sense that democracy is under stress across the

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Speaker 3: Western world, if not further beyond. And what we've seen

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Speaker 3: is decades of the so called mass to the institutions

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Speaker 3: by the center left and the social justice activists and

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Speaker 3: the misnamed progressives, which has embedded cultural and social policies

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Speaker 3: from one side of the archeological spectrum into the dominant institutions.

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Speaker 3: And as the political atmosphere or landscape changes, they are

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Speaker 3: mounting a ferocious resistance two attempts to reset the balance

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Speaker 3: into a more traditional, to the most traditional center. And

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Speaker 3: we've seen that in Europe and the rise of people

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Speaker 3: like Giorgio Mulioni in Italy, center right parties in the Netherlands,

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Speaker 3: center right parties rising to the four quite dramatically in Germany,

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Speaker 3: in France. Reformed UK is part of that. Pierre Polieva

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Speaker 3: in Canada was on the ascendant quite substantially for months

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Speaker 3: and months and months until the governing Liberal Party replaced

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Speaker 3: Justin Trudeau with Mark Karney. And I think if it

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Speaker 3: had elections in another month, Kolievo would have been home comfortably.

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Speaker 3: As we speak, it's on the knife page. And in

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Speaker 3: Australia the Liberal should have been in this similar position.

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Speaker 3: But I have to say this is a single most

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Speaker 3: inept campaign I've experienced anywhere in the world from a

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Speaker 3: center right party that had so many open goals to

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Speaker 3: shoot that maybe is so confused that doesn't know which

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Speaker 3: goal to aim at and as a result is shooting

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Speaker 3: all over the ground that anywherey other, anywhere but the goal.

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Speaker 3: So it looks like Anthony Albanesi and Labor will be

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Speaker 3: back in. But we have a paradoxical situation where Poles

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Speaker 3: confirm the widespread sense that Labor deserves to lose, but

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Speaker 3: the Liberals don't deserve to win, and that is something

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Speaker 3: again that I haven't experienced elsewhere. So we'll see how

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Speaker 3: that goes as well. But the issues that are under

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Speaker 3: contention in all these countries are backlash to net zero,

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Speaker 3: and you'll have seen overnight as we speak, the massive

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Speaker 3: power blackouts in Spain and Portugal and the good chance

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Speaker 3: that they result from the switch to unreliables from the

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Speaker 3: good old reliables of fossil fuel and nuclear power. They

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Speaker 3: include elements of DEI and a pushback against that, with

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Speaker 3: many firms now starting to react to that. They include

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Speaker 3: elements of gender identity and the insanity of insisting that

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Speaker 3: biology is less real than self perception, and the problems

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Speaker 3: that they have caused. And remember for Trump, it's now

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Speaker 3: I admit that that a single most effective campaign slogan

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Speaker 3: against the Democrats was Trump is for you, Kamala Harris

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Speaker 3: is for their them, referring to the pronouns.

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Speaker 4: Was And then even more importantly in a sense, if

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Speaker 4: you take this to the internet dimension, the pushback against

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Speaker 4: globalization on the trade front and globalism.

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Speaker 3: On the political front, and the real emergence of hard

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Speaker 3: frontiers the state and a desire to reclaim national identity

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Speaker 3: and the sense that national identity has been lost to

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Speaker 3: ideological extremism. And at the end of the day, we

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Speaker 3: are citizens of political systems, not economic systems, and desire

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Speaker 3: to reprioritize politics and make politics control economics rather than

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Speaker 3: be subservient to it. So that's a wise spread phenomenon,

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Speaker 3: and then the Trump policies come into that. But internationally,

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Speaker 3: if the state is back, then inevitably we are witnessing

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Speaker 3: the return of geopolitics and the retreat of global institutions,

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Speaker 3: and the sense that global institutions have begun to dominate

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Speaker 3: the nation states instead of being servant to the nation states.

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Speaker 3: And that also goes across a number of fronts and

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Speaker 3: included the reaction with the policies on COVID management as well.

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Speaker 3: So there's a lot of disparate issues, but there is

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Speaker 3: a way of connecting the dots in these terms of

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Speaker 3: resetting the normative dominant normative points for governing both domestic

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Speaker 3: and international regimes and political systems and therefore effectively governing

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Speaker 3: our lives. And they're very pronounced. Desire for citizens to

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Speaker 3: reassert control over the processes instead of being norm takers

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Speaker 3: and value takers and economy takers, etc. And the pushback

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Speaker 3: against technocratic expertise, which has been proven to be not

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Speaker 3: very smart.

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Speaker 2: At the end of the day, you have provided me

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Speaker 2: with almost countless exits along the way to pursue some

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Speaker 2: of the things that you that you mentioned.

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Speaker 3: Well, it is a time for a big picture look

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Speaker 3: and analysis, I think.

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Speaker 2: But there are things, there are certain things happening that

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Speaker 2: are counter to what and I agree with what you said,

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Speaker 2: by the way that that count counter what you said

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Speaker 2: and what and what I agree with I mean, for instance,

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Speaker 2: the situation with judicial matters all over the well what

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Speaker 2: we what we call the Western world, but mainly in

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Speaker 2: the anglosphere, and stretching a little beyond but specifically.

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Speaker 3: The Germany and coming also yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Is something that would confuse a lot of people. I think. So,

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Speaker 2: so here's here's the question. It's happening in Australia, it's

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Speaker 2: happening in New Zealand, it's happening specifically in America, and

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Speaker 2: I think that's where it kicked off in Britain and

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Speaker 2: the other and the other place. As you mentioned, why

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Speaker 2: is it happening?

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Speaker 3: I think we've been presented with certain ideological perspectives dressed

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Speaker 3: up as scientific consensus and facts. Take environment net zero,

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Speaker 3: climate change what used to be global warming. Until things change,

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Speaker 3: It's hard to argue that science is settled, because science

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Speaker 3: is always work in progress. But if you get the

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Speaker 3: illusion of scientific consensus, then you engage in de legitimization

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Speaker 3: of any opposing points of view by attaching the labeled

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Speaker 3: denialism and deniers picking up on the pejorative views of

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Speaker 3: that with regard to those who for example, deny the Holocaust,

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Speaker 3: and COVID fell into that as well, and well credential

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Speaker 3: people who raised skeptical questions about what was being done

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Speaker 3: or quickly pushed away from the public square and deny

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Speaker 3: the voice and stuff Now if you extend that, then

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Speaker 3: what happens is people with a different point of view.

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Speaker 3: Our treat is not as people with a different but

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Speaker 3: legitimate point of view who need to be engaged within conversation,

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Speaker 3: but people who are science denies at the end of

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Speaker 3: the day, even evil and deserve to be hounded out

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Speaker 3: of the public space. And then political leaders go down

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Speaker 3: that path, you say, well, we can use the law

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Speaker 3: to put them in jail. So the long efforts to

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Speaker 3: use weaponized laarfare against Trump, the things they're doing in

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Speaker 3: Germany in denying legitimacy and trying to suppress.

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Speaker 5: The AfD, the verdict against Marine le Pen in France,

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Speaker 5: and talking to me, you mentioned my visit to the

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Speaker 5: UK to talking to people there.

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Speaker 3: I hadn't realized, but they are afraid that the slightest

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Speaker 3: opportunity the laws will be used to silence and perhaps

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Speaker 3: even imprisoned Nigel Farage, so he's got to be extremely

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Speaker 3: careful in things he says. So there is that sense of,

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Speaker 3: you know, the phrase that has become common in the

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Speaker 3: UK to fear justice, and it's hard to deny the

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Speaker 3: reality of that in the UK and in the US

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Speaker 3: and in other places. So yes, there is a sense

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Speaker 3: that law which should be impartial and objective, and no

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Speaker 3: one is above the law, but no one is under

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Speaker 3: the law, and that everyone is equal and deserves the

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Speaker 3: equal protection of the law. That sense seems to have

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Speaker 3: been thrown out, and there is again a lot of

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Speaker 3: unease over that. So I said at the start that

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Speaker 3: democracy is under stress, but I think there is a

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Speaker 3: deep division as to whether the greater threat to demoocracy

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Speaker 3: comes from the right or the left. And as one example,

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Speaker 3: as one if you like trivia, yet telling example of

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Speaker 3: that is you can have a very interesting and real

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Speaker 3: debate on whether the greater threat to democracy and our

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Speaker 3: freedoms comes from censorship of free speech. And that is

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Speaker 3: something that we are all undergoing as well. But to

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Speaker 3: say that you can't have the debate that there is

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Speaker 3: no compensation. That's what has happened across a range of issues,

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Speaker 3: and people are repelling against that.

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Speaker 2: I think it's intriguing because I've been battling against the

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Speaker 2: scam of man made climate change for decades and we

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Speaker 2: got to the point where you started to wonder if

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Speaker 2: it was really worth it. Well, it was, of course,

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Speaker 2: but all of a sudden from seemingly out of nowhere.

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Speaker 2: It started to turn, and it's turning. It's turning very

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Speaker 2: strongly in some areas, except New Zealand. We have a

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Speaker 2: supposedly right of center government elected last year and they're

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Speaker 2: pursuing the net zero full force. It's just absurd in

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Speaker 2: the first place.

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Speaker 3: I think on that later, and it helps to break

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Speaker 3: it down into different components of the tibate. One is

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Speaker 3: the science, and this claim to scientific consensus is very questionable. Now. Also,

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Speaker 3: of course, science doesn't rely on majority opinion. It can

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Speaker 3: be overturned with time, and it does change with time,

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Speaker 3: so there is a genuine quot for questioning the basic

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Speaker 3: thesis and the details of the science. Second, even if

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Speaker 3: you agree or have a majority view on science, there's

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Speaker 3: still the question of how you convert that into public policy.

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Speaker 3: And the third part, separate from that, is the politics

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Speaker 3: of it. If you have a consensus amongst the governing

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Speaker 3: elite and the ruling elite, and the cultural elit and

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Speaker 3: the economists and the environmentalists, you still have to deal

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Speaker 3: with the fact that there are serious empirical consequences of

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Speaker 3: climate change policies which will result in impoverishment and emiseration

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Speaker 3: of people's substantial drop in lifestyles and a transfer of

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Speaker 3: wealth and power to potential enemies internationally. And then you think, well,

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Speaker 3: what is the contribution of Australia and the UK in

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Speaker 3: the global issue on the global landscape environmental landscape? And

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Speaker 3: the answer it's very very modest. If VIEWO to reach

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Speaker 3: near zero tomorrow for practical purposes, given the existing policies

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Speaker 3: of China, Russia, India and now in the United States,

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Speaker 3: that would not even amount to a drop in the bucket.

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Speaker 3: Now if you extend that to New Zealand, it becomes

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Speaker 3: even more absurd. So why should we accept substantial drops

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Speaker 3: in our living standards? Then that makes not the slightest

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Speaker 3: different to the overall goal. How many call for stations

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Speaker 3: and are being opened by China and by India every month?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think I think I need to inject another

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Speaker 2: aspect of this debate, and that is the media and

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Speaker 2: the media. The media in different sets in different parts

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Speaker 2: of the world has had different different approaches. In New

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Speaker 2: Zealand and you would probably be familiar, the media put

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Speaker 2: a blank on it. They won't discuss it, they won't

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Speaker 2: they won't entertain anything. But the official line. Now I'll

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Speaker 2: give you two. I'll give you two responses, relatively recently

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Speaker 2: over the last few months, two queries to various people

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Speaker 2: in positions of shall we say unfortunately authority. One answer

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Speaker 2: to a to a serious question was well, you've got

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Speaker 2: your science and we've got our science, and we believe

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Speaker 2: our science. End of story, end of discussion. I challenged

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Speaker 2: various people too, in particular Prime Minister and the Prime

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Speaker 2: Minister Scientific Advisor, over the years over it, and it

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Speaker 2: was it was The reaction was simply, this is what

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Speaker 2: the science says and that's where we're going with it.

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Speaker 2: And that's the end of it. Again, no discussion. And

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Speaker 2: if you if you put up somebody to discuss somebody

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Speaker 2: of authority, no one will turn up. No one will

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Speaker 2: take them on. We witness that here on a number

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Speaker 2: of occasions over a good ten years.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, The old thing on that is the same people,

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Speaker 3: the same authorities you like in court, are the ones

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Speaker 3: who will insist that Mauri myths have equal status with

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Speaker 3: Western empurple science.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing I can say about that that I could

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Speaker 2: get away with, no because and.

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Speaker 3: The same people have been saying for the last three

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Speaker 3: to four years that a man can grow a cervix

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Speaker 3: and women can have a penis. Even kirs Tama said

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Speaker 3: one percent of visions going around with women are going

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Speaker 3: around with penises, which we're tut with something like thirty

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Speaker 3: thousand visions in that category. He's now, of course going

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Speaker 3: back on that after the Supreme Wourt judgment there. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: you're right, it's amazing that they don't see the contradictions

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Speaker 3: and often the hypocrisy in terms of what they proclaim

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Speaker 3: as the science and then the individual behavior.

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Speaker 2: Well, my belief is that I'm thinking of one or

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Speaker 2: two people in particular. My belief is that they they're

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Speaker 2: playing a different game. The The other one that I've

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Speaker 2: recalled is the other response that I have recalled is

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Speaker 2: that when challenged with the size of New Zealand and

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Speaker 2: its output, well we have to do our share. And

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Speaker 2: it's the dumbest, most stupid response that you that you

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Speaker 2: can give for the simple reass as you have explained,

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Speaker 2: the size of the size of the country, the upper

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Speaker 2: of the country and the influence that it has on

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Speaker 2: anything is zero.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 2: So it's a dumb thing to say. Sorry, I get

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Speaker 2: carried away on this. I want to quote you, sure

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Speaker 2: you happen to be back in India based in New

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Speaker 2: Delhi doing archival and interview research for your PhD. The

432
00:29:50,613 --> 00:29:55,333
Speaker 2: experience of the overnight transition from a rambunctious democracy to

433
00:29:55,453 --> 00:30:00,533
Speaker 2: which argumentative Indians had taken with gusto, to a stifling

434
00:30:00,573 --> 00:30:05,013
Speaker 2: and oppressive rule by state feat was deeply and permanently sobering.

435
00:30:05,533 --> 00:30:09,453
Speaker 2: It led to my first academic article on returning to Canada,

436
00:30:09,893 --> 00:30:15,293
Speaker 2: the fate of India's Parliamentary democracy in nineteen seventy six.

437
00:30:15,333 --> 00:30:16,773
Speaker 2: What effect did that have on you?

438
00:30:17,733 --> 00:30:24,533
Speaker 3: A permanent and passionate believer in democracy, freedoms and the

439
00:30:24,573 --> 00:30:28,853
Speaker 3: central importance of free speech. I do not like to

440
00:30:28,893 --> 00:30:32,973
Speaker 3: delegitimize people with different points of view. I'm happy to

441
00:30:33,133 --> 00:30:36,693
Speaker 3: engage people in debate endlessly if need be, And maybe

442
00:30:36,933 --> 00:30:41,773
Speaker 3: that's my Indian character. Provided that discussion is carried on

443
00:30:41,893 --> 00:30:45,453
Speaker 3: with civility and mutual respect. It can be passionate, it

444
00:30:45,493 --> 00:30:48,213
Speaker 3: can be robust, but there's no need for it to

445
00:30:48,333 --> 00:30:53,373
Speaker 3: degenerate into name calling and vulgarity and abuse. And what

446
00:30:53,453 --> 00:30:57,973
Speaker 3: has happened since that I wrote that, to my great astonishment,

447
00:30:58,693 --> 00:31:01,813
Speaker 3: is the walk back from those principles. You know, the

448
00:31:01,853 --> 00:31:06,173
Speaker 3: famous saying I will disagree with you, but I'll defend

449
00:31:06,213 --> 00:31:08,893
Speaker 3: your right to disagree with me to the death. We

450
00:31:09,053 --> 00:31:14,293
Speaker 3: walked back from that and lost our core values in

451
00:31:14,333 --> 00:31:16,693
Speaker 3: the process, and we need to re establish that. And

452
00:31:16,733 --> 00:31:19,213
Speaker 3: the media, I agree with you. The media is guilty

453
00:31:19,253 --> 00:31:21,933
Speaker 3: of that. But the media is part of the institutions,

454
00:31:21,973 --> 00:31:25,973
Speaker 3: and as part of the institutional structure, the media has

455
00:31:26,013 --> 00:31:30,733
Speaker 3: suffered as much, if not more than most other institutions

456
00:31:31,333 --> 00:31:34,333
Speaker 3: in the decline of public trust, and that has been

457
00:31:34,373 --> 00:31:38,973
Speaker 3: documented year after year around the Western worldmar the substantial

458
00:31:39,053 --> 00:31:44,133
Speaker 3: drop in trust of public institutions, including media, including doctors,

459
00:31:44,133 --> 00:31:46,533
Speaker 3: including governments, experts in general.

460
00:31:47,933 --> 00:31:52,973
Speaker 2: Speaking of speaking of doctors, there is an issue regarding

461
00:31:53,333 --> 00:32:00,013
Speaker 2: the medical professions, particularly public medicine hospital systems. We have

462
00:32:00,133 --> 00:32:06,093
Speaker 2: a crisis. Australia has a crisis. Britain certainly has a crisis.

463
00:32:07,213 --> 00:32:10,213
Speaker 2: What do you put that down too, that's.

464
00:32:09,973 --> 00:32:14,453
Speaker 3: Harder to say. Well, medicine is starting to be politicized,

465
00:32:15,053 --> 00:32:17,533
Speaker 3: and we see that again in the States, and I

466
00:32:17,573 --> 00:32:21,093
Speaker 3: hope we don't import some of their tendencies in that,

467
00:32:21,173 --> 00:32:26,253
Speaker 3: but I suspect we might. So that's one element. Indoctrination

468
00:32:26,333 --> 00:32:32,453
Speaker 3: in medical schools indoctrination into dominant political and cultural ideologies

469
00:32:32,493 --> 00:32:37,813
Speaker 3: as well. I think we have lost control of public

470
00:32:37,893 --> 00:32:43,173
Speaker 3: expenditure in pursuit of luxury beliefs like climate change. Therefore

471
00:32:43,213 --> 00:32:47,533
Speaker 3: have reduced capacity unless we want to keep on increasing

472
00:32:47,573 --> 00:32:52,573
Speaker 3: taxation to cover core issues. Now in the Australian context,

473
00:32:52,613 --> 00:32:55,813
Speaker 3: the best example of that is the so called NDIS

474
00:32:55,973 --> 00:33:00,133
Speaker 3: National Disability Insurance Scheme, which was introduced by the Gillard

475
00:33:00,213 --> 00:33:04,693
Speaker 3: government a decade ago, and the budget I think for

476
00:33:04,733 --> 00:33:09,253
Speaker 3: the NDIS now has already overtaken or is set to overtake.

477
00:33:09,733 --> 00:33:15,133
Speaker 3: The entire Medicare budget is completely out of control. Many

478
00:33:15,213 --> 00:33:18,533
Speaker 3: of us predicted at the time that because it was

479
00:33:18,573 --> 00:33:20,773
Speaker 3: based on the field good factor, they would not be

480
00:33:20,773 --> 00:33:22,773
Speaker 3: able to control it. More and more groups who want

481
00:33:22,813 --> 00:33:25,973
Speaker 3: to be eligible for that there will be a lot

482
00:33:26,013 --> 00:33:29,493
Speaker 3: of routing and fraud, and that has happened. So that's

483
00:33:29,533 --> 00:33:33,173
Speaker 3: another side to it. Throwing money into all sorts of

484
00:33:33,693 --> 00:33:38,253
Speaker 3: activist causes means you're diverting money that should be spent

485
00:33:38,773 --> 00:33:42,173
Speaker 3: on core health issues into other areas. So I think

486
00:33:42,533 --> 00:33:46,413
Speaker 3: that whole you know what we've ended up in many countries,

487
00:33:46,453 --> 00:33:50,013
Speaker 3: including Australia, and then be very surprised if New Zealand

488
00:33:50,173 --> 00:33:53,613
Speaker 3: was not worse than this is that number of net

489
00:33:53,733 --> 00:33:59,493
Speaker 3: beneficiaries of government largess is more than half, and that

490
00:33:59,693 --> 00:34:03,813
Speaker 3: means they can use the voting numbers to keep demanding more.

491
00:34:04,653 --> 00:34:10,573
Speaker 3: I'm not aware of too many expenditure budget lines that

492
00:34:10,733 --> 00:34:14,133
Speaker 3: managed to get abolished. And we've seen the effort by

493
00:34:14,133 --> 00:34:18,053
Speaker 3: elln Mosque in the stage and the terminal that is created.

494
00:34:18,613 --> 00:34:22,453
Speaker 3: And yet that's what we need for any additional expendites

495
00:34:22,493 --> 00:34:26,293
Speaker 3: to propose there should be a requirement to identify equivalent

496
00:34:26,733 --> 00:34:32,813
Speaker 3: cutback somewhere else. But instead what's granted today is becomes

497
00:34:32,813 --> 00:34:34,933
Speaker 3: a line in the sand that must not be questioned

498
00:34:35,253 --> 00:34:39,333
Speaker 3: in due course. And then other demands crop up and

499
00:34:39,413 --> 00:34:44,053
Speaker 3: what used to be regarded almost with shame, the need

500
00:34:44,133 --> 00:34:48,013
Speaker 3: to receive government handout is now regarded as a matter

501
00:34:48,053 --> 00:34:51,933
Speaker 3: of entitlement. And that has that's a change that has

502
00:34:51,973 --> 00:34:54,093
Speaker 3: happened within our lifetime. If you think back to it,

503
00:34:54,173 --> 00:34:58,293
Speaker 3: yes that our parents would never have agreed and will

504
00:34:58,333 --> 00:35:01,733
Speaker 3: be horrified to think what has happened today. And now

505
00:35:01,773 --> 00:35:05,493
Speaker 3: you get aggressive demands that you know, it's just a

506
00:35:05,493 --> 00:35:07,933
Speaker 3: cup of coffee for you, and it's this and this

507
00:35:07,973 --> 00:35:11,213
Speaker 3: for me sort of thing. So I think that basic

508
00:35:11,853 --> 00:35:19,773
Speaker 3: element of balancing books, of restricting government to minimum flow

509
00:35:20,373 --> 00:35:24,213
Speaker 3: rather than the ceiling in terms of what it should

510
00:35:24,253 --> 00:35:27,453
Speaker 3: be doing, the idea that it's my right to be

511
00:35:27,493 --> 00:35:29,893
Speaker 3: looked after over the government, which came to a head

512
00:35:30,053 --> 00:35:35,053
Speaker 3: again under COVID with massive handouts and subsidies and did

513
00:35:35,093 --> 00:35:41,413
Speaker 3: a renewals as well. So if you just take energy security, okay, affordable, accessible, reliable,

514
00:35:41,493 --> 00:35:42,653
Speaker 3: et cetera, et cetera.

515
00:35:42,813 --> 00:35:45,373
Speaker 2: Can you find when you find any.

516
00:35:46,453 --> 00:35:48,253
Speaker 3: Well, But that's the point I would love to go

517
00:35:48,333 --> 00:35:51,533
Speaker 3: back to the situation that the government says, fine, we

518
00:35:51,613 --> 00:35:55,573
Speaker 3: will let market forces decide. We'll lift in Australia the

519
00:35:55,653 --> 00:36:00,213
Speaker 3: ban on uranium or on nuclear energy, but you won't

520
00:36:00,213 --> 00:36:04,213
Speaker 3: give any subsidy. But we'll also take away subsidies from renewables.

521
00:36:04,333 --> 00:36:08,053
Speaker 3: You've got the abscess situation where with a combination of

522
00:36:09,253 --> 00:36:15,173
Speaker 3: massive subsidies to the renewal sector and physical penalties to

523
00:36:15,333 --> 00:36:21,053
Speaker 3: the fossil fuels, we made it costly to maintain coal

524
00:36:21,133 --> 00:36:25,533
Speaker 3: fout fire stations. But then when the price of that

525
00:36:25,653 --> 00:36:28,573
Speaker 3: hits in terms of power, out of this we start

526
00:36:28,653 --> 00:36:31,973
Speaker 3: directing subsidy again to cold stations to keep going for

527
00:36:32,013 --> 00:36:35,733
Speaker 3: another few months. Another few years. So the distortions are massive.

528
00:36:36,293 --> 00:36:38,053
Speaker 3: And if you just take the state out of that

529
00:36:39,293 --> 00:36:41,693
Speaker 3: and say, let the market decide, we'll get a better

530
00:36:41,733 --> 00:36:45,533
Speaker 3: idea of where people want to put their own money

531
00:36:45,613 --> 00:36:48,733
Speaker 3: rather than taxpayer money. But that's across the board. I'm

532
00:36:48,773 --> 00:36:50,693
Speaker 3: just taking that as an example, but that's across the

533
00:36:50,733 --> 00:36:53,653
Speaker 3: board as a problem. So I think we do need

534
00:36:54,053 --> 00:36:56,533
Speaker 3: It goes back to where I started off. It's a

535
00:36:56,533 --> 00:37:02,613
Speaker 3: transformational moment in world politics and world economics and world order,

536
00:37:03,333 --> 00:37:06,013
Speaker 3: and I'm not sure where it'll end up, but I

537
00:37:06,053 --> 00:37:09,093
Speaker 3: think the sense is that the path we're on was

538
00:37:09,173 --> 00:37:13,813
Speaker 3: simply not sustainable, and I think the instability and volatility

539
00:37:13,853 --> 00:37:16,733
Speaker 3: and problems we are encountering is all that coming to

540
00:37:16,773 --> 00:37:22,693
Speaker 3: a head. As I said earlier, historically these transformational moments

541
00:37:23,293 --> 00:37:25,813
Speaker 3: in going from one order to the next have come

542
00:37:26,333 --> 00:37:30,613
Speaker 3: at the end of major world wars. Unfortunately, given the

543
00:37:30,653 --> 00:37:33,773
Speaker 3: reality of nuclear weapons, they can't afford that. So where

544
00:37:33,773 --> 00:37:36,373
Speaker 3: do we go at the moment. The countries that are

545
00:37:36,413 --> 00:37:42,093
Speaker 3: avoiding the excesses of this insanity are countries outside the West,

546
00:37:42,853 --> 00:37:44,533
Speaker 3: and so we need to look at that as well.

547
00:37:45,973 --> 00:37:51,293
Speaker 3: In this Western world, the hope for something new that's

548
00:37:51,533 --> 00:37:55,093
Speaker 3: most sustainable, not in the environmental sense, but more generally

549
00:37:55,693 --> 00:37:59,853
Speaker 3: is the United States. And you see a battle lines

550
00:37:59,893 --> 00:38:02,533
Speaker 3: being drawn between the United States and Europe on that

551
00:38:02,573 --> 00:38:08,533
Speaker 3: as well, Europe being the state welface welfare state out

552
00:38:08,573 --> 00:38:11,173
Speaker 3: of it and the United States being more of the

553
00:38:11,213 --> 00:38:14,933
Speaker 3: free market and free society side of it. Which is simplifying,

554
00:38:14,973 --> 00:38:17,893
Speaker 3: but there is enough of a truth and that to

555
00:38:18,053 --> 00:38:22,093
Speaker 3: make it as a useful generalization. Are going to have

556
00:38:22,093 --> 00:38:25,133
Speaker 3: to fall into that and decide where you want to go. There.

557
00:38:25,613 --> 00:38:28,693
Speaker 2: There's a family member of ours and it's not my son,

558
00:38:29,333 --> 00:38:34,253
Speaker 2: it's somebody else who who is actually English, lives in London,

559
00:38:35,973 --> 00:38:42,093
Speaker 2: has just returned from a visit to Poland. And while

560
00:38:42,133 --> 00:38:45,533
Speaker 2: I can't detail the picture too much, I can tell

561
00:38:45,573 --> 00:38:52,733
Speaker 2: you that this particular family member was stunned with the

562
00:38:52,773 --> 00:38:56,733
Speaker 2: progress that Poland has made m h. And it's leaving

563
00:38:56,773 --> 00:38:59,813
Speaker 2: the rest of it's going to I read somewhere relatively

564
00:38:59,813 --> 00:39:03,973
Speaker 2: recently that that Poland that Poland was going to be

565
00:39:04,093 --> 00:39:08,813
Speaker 2: the biggest, biggest or the most successful state in Europe

566
00:39:08,973 --> 00:39:10,533
Speaker 2: within a very short period of time.

567
00:39:11,493 --> 00:39:14,933
Speaker 3: It doesn't surprise me. Lad you know something that we

568
00:39:15,213 --> 00:39:17,733
Speaker 3: tend to forget, how many people in the West do

569
00:39:17,733 --> 00:39:22,813
Speaker 3: you think are aware of the history of Polish troops

570
00:39:22,853 --> 00:39:27,013
Speaker 3: intervening in the Great Fight against Islam just outside of

571
00:39:27,093 --> 00:39:30,813
Speaker 3: Vienna and halting the march of Islam into Europe. Not

572
00:39:30,933 --> 00:39:35,973
Speaker 3: many was critical in that, so there is a certain

573
00:39:36,133 --> 00:39:40,613
Speaker 3: history behind that as well. But countries like Poland Hungary

574
00:39:40,653 --> 00:39:44,853
Speaker 3: is another one, countries that have emerged from communist rule

575
00:39:45,293 --> 00:39:49,653
Speaker 3: and are aware of the threats and dangers of totalitarianism

576
00:39:50,333 --> 00:39:52,973
Speaker 3: and the role of the Catholic Church in sustaining the

577
00:39:53,053 --> 00:39:58,333
Speaker 3: nationalism of Poland. So you've got let's say, the soft

578
00:39:58,373 --> 00:40:02,253
Speaker 3: states in the West, which I engaged in an orgy

579
00:40:02,293 --> 00:40:06,173
Speaker 3: of national self abasement and all the evils of the

580
00:40:06,173 --> 00:40:09,213
Speaker 3: world are laid at our own doors. And then you've

581
00:40:09,253 --> 00:40:12,693
Speaker 3: got others who still want to preserve that national identity,

582
00:40:13,773 --> 00:40:17,413
Speaker 3: take pride in their history and their contributions to human

583
00:40:17,493 --> 00:40:22,413
Speaker 3: welfare and progress, through their enlightenment, through the industrial revolution

584
00:40:22,733 --> 00:40:26,373
Speaker 3: led by fossil fuels, which have raised living standards around

585
00:40:26,373 --> 00:40:29,733
Speaker 3: the world, which have made education and better health possible.

586
00:40:31,013 --> 00:40:33,173
Speaker 3: We have made life a lot easier for all of us.

587
00:40:33,373 --> 00:40:38,333
Speaker 3: We have democratized society, breaking the old feudal system of

588
00:40:38,533 --> 00:40:42,373
Speaker 3: law of lords and service. So I think we've lost

589
00:40:42,493 --> 00:40:45,773
Speaker 3: that sense of perspective. Yes, bad things were done, but

590
00:40:45,893 --> 00:40:49,373
Speaker 3: the amount of good that Western civilization has brought to

591
00:40:49,413 --> 00:40:53,813
Speaker 3: the world far out weighs the harms it has caused.

592
00:40:54,573 --> 00:40:57,093
Speaker 3: And I speak as someone who comes from a country

593
00:40:57,093 --> 00:41:01,173
Speaker 3: that was colonized, whether British. Now that you know, there

594
00:41:01,173 --> 00:41:04,773
Speaker 3: were many bad things that were done, but historically speaking,

595
00:41:05,733 --> 00:41:08,133
Speaker 3: I rather it was Britain that colonized India than some

596
00:41:08,173 --> 00:41:11,333
Speaker 3: of the others, which I think would have left us

597
00:41:11,333 --> 00:41:15,133
Speaker 3: in a much worse state. So so you know, and

598
00:41:15,373 --> 00:41:19,813
Speaker 3: like before they came, was not idealic uh and living

599
00:41:19,853 --> 00:41:22,853
Speaker 3: in paradise in Asia. So I think that that that

600
00:41:23,013 --> 00:41:27,893
Speaker 3: whole issue of perspective and and and and teaching history

601
00:41:27,893 --> 00:41:31,413
Speaker 3: with a balance that bad things were done, but which

602
00:41:31,453 --> 00:41:33,853
Speaker 3: was the country that ended slavery and and paid daily

603
00:41:33,933 --> 00:41:36,493
Speaker 3: for that in both treasure and life. It was Britain.

604
00:41:37,573 --> 00:41:42,773
Speaker 3: So I think that I think the national self abasement

605
00:41:42,813 --> 00:41:45,333
Speaker 3: is probably the best phrase in that you know, it

606
00:41:45,453 --> 00:41:49,053
Speaker 3: puzzles me. I don't understand it, and you'll see. And

607
00:41:49,133 --> 00:41:51,453
Speaker 3: I think I've said this in an earlier interview with

608
00:41:51,533 --> 00:41:55,253
Speaker 3: you as well. Some of the most passionate deferent defenders

609
00:41:56,133 --> 00:42:01,933
Speaker 3: of the West's role in progregress and freedoms and manifestry

610
00:42:02,013 --> 00:42:05,973
Speaker 3: humanity are the immigrants, and it tends to be second

611
00:42:06,013 --> 00:42:09,933
Speaker 3: and third gnimeration immigrants who then want to revise history

612
00:42:10,013 --> 00:42:14,893
Speaker 3: and the talk of reparations and the evils of the West, etc.

613
00:42:15,933 --> 00:42:19,773
Speaker 3: So I don't know you. You well, you could talk

614
00:42:20,173 --> 00:42:22,333
Speaker 3: endlessly about that, but it is a great puzzle to

615
00:42:22,413 --> 00:42:25,453
Speaker 3: me aster why we believe we are amongst the most

616
00:42:25,813 --> 00:42:30,813
Speaker 3: be meaning West Christian West, the most evil people ever

617
00:42:30,893 --> 00:42:31,373
Speaker 3: in the world.

618
00:42:32,653 --> 00:42:38,773
Speaker 2: Well, bringing it back home momentarily, there is a scenario

619
00:42:38,813 --> 00:42:40,813
Speaker 2: in this country, and you referred to it earlier with

620
00:42:40,893 --> 00:42:45,373
Speaker 2: regard to universities and the science, et cetera, and the

621
00:42:45,413 --> 00:42:48,973
Speaker 2: nonsense that goes that goes on. But we we have

622
00:42:50,093 --> 00:42:52,413
Speaker 2: brought a lot of people into this country, even just

623
00:42:52,493 --> 00:42:56,853
Speaker 2: in the last year, and I don't have any I

624
00:42:56,893 --> 00:43:00,413
Speaker 2: don't have any faith in the fact that the kids

625
00:43:00,453 --> 00:43:04,173
Speaker 2: of those new arrivals are going to get the education

626
00:43:04,693 --> 00:43:07,613
Speaker 2: that you would believe that they should have and that

627
00:43:08,413 --> 00:43:11,093
Speaker 2: many others of us do as well. So they're going

628
00:43:11,093 --> 00:43:14,053
Speaker 2: to they're going to grow up well with the falsehoods

629
00:43:14,293 --> 00:43:22,333
Speaker 2: and the encouragement to believe other things. And I don't

630
00:43:22,333 --> 00:43:25,493
Speaker 2: know what the answer to that is, because it's it's

631
00:43:25,533 --> 00:43:28,053
Speaker 2: not in the media at this particular point of time.

632
00:43:29,133 --> 00:43:32,373
Speaker 2: It it isn't in the politics really at this at

633
00:43:32,373 --> 00:43:36,693
Speaker 2: this point of time, the politicians themselves appear to be

634
00:43:37,933 --> 00:43:44,173
Speaker 2: either unfamiliar or non caring or frightened of actually standing

635
00:43:44,333 --> 00:43:47,453
Speaker 2: up and being counted. And I got an email from

636
00:43:47,493 --> 00:43:50,213
Speaker 2: I got an email from somebody who, well, this will

637
00:43:50,253 --> 00:43:53,533
Speaker 2: be read in the in the mail room after the

638
00:43:53,573 --> 00:43:58,693
Speaker 2: interview that we are doing. The author said, well, as well,

639
00:43:58,733 --> 00:44:02,533
Speaker 2: America has voted for the man of common sense, Donald Trump.

640
00:44:03,133 --> 00:44:05,613
Speaker 2: And if this was an election year in New Zealand,

641
00:44:05,693 --> 00:44:09,013
Speaker 2: I think that for the very first time, I'm ready

642
00:44:09,053 --> 00:44:13,013
Speaker 2: to vote for Winston Peters because like him or not,

643
00:44:13,613 --> 00:44:16,333
Speaker 2: he has been the man of common sense for literally

644
00:44:16,653 --> 00:44:20,213
Speaker 2: literally all his political life. How much of how much?

645
00:44:20,293 --> 00:44:22,853
Speaker 2: How much of that there there is a wash in

646
00:44:22,893 --> 00:44:26,253
Speaker 2: the community. I don't know, but I've certainly heard similar

647
00:44:26,293 --> 00:44:33,293
Speaker 2: comments in numbers. So you know, who who knows what

648
00:44:33,333 --> 00:44:36,813
Speaker 2: the what the result might be. Because the next election

649
00:44:36,933 --> 00:44:39,413
Speaker 2: is eighteen months off and Winston's getting on of it.

650
00:44:40,813 --> 00:44:44,253
Speaker 3: I think your correspondent has put has put his or

651
00:44:44,253 --> 00:44:48,133
Speaker 3: her finger on a very important point in understanding contemporary

652
00:44:48,173 --> 00:44:52,253
Speaker 3: Western politics, and that is you have an elite consensus.

653
00:44:52,893 --> 00:44:54,693
Speaker 3: And I'm going to have said this in an earlier interview.

654
00:44:54,733 --> 00:44:58,293
Speaker 3: I'm sure that the divide is no longer between Democrats

655
00:44:58,333 --> 00:45:02,653
Speaker 3: and Republicans, or labor and Tories, et cetera. It's actually

656
00:45:02,773 --> 00:45:08,493
Speaker 3: elites versus deplorables, if you like most people what in

657
00:45:08,533 --> 00:45:12,013
Speaker 3: the States they call eighty twenty issues, in that Democrats

658
00:45:12,053 --> 00:45:15,893
Speaker 3: find themselves supporting causes that are supported only by twenty percent.

659
00:45:16,493 --> 00:45:18,933
Speaker 3: It may not be eighty twenty in Australia, but it's

660
00:45:18,933 --> 00:45:23,453
Speaker 3: certainly sixty forty. The percentage that broke down on the

661
00:45:23,533 --> 00:45:27,173
Speaker 3: Voice referendum sixty percent of it, forty percent supported it,

662
00:45:27,493 --> 00:45:29,133
Speaker 3: and I think that will be across the board on

663
00:45:29,213 --> 00:45:31,613
Speaker 3: most issues. Again, I don't know what it will be

664
00:45:31,653 --> 00:45:36,053
Speaker 3: in New Zealand, but where they have had elite consensus

665
00:45:36,933 --> 00:45:41,573
Speaker 3: across parties and hence the notion of UNI parties, there

666
00:45:41,613 --> 00:45:47,493
Speaker 3: is great scope politically for disruptive parties and they are

667
00:45:47,533 --> 00:45:50,733
Speaker 3: derided as populists, but that's because they are identifying with

668
00:45:50,853 --> 00:45:54,213
Speaker 3: causes that are popular. So far from a term of derision,

669
00:45:54,293 --> 00:45:58,573
Speaker 3: populist tractly is an accurate empirical description of where the

670
00:45:58,573 --> 00:46:01,333
Speaker 3: center of gravity lies in the electorate rather than in

671
00:46:01,413 --> 00:46:07,373
Speaker 3: the elites. And what you see is people rising and

672
00:46:07,493 --> 00:46:12,653
Speaker 3: parties rising, whether under charismatical leaders or under normal leaders.

673
00:46:12,653 --> 00:46:15,853
Speaker 3: If you like to occupy that space and to expand

674
00:46:15,893 --> 00:46:19,573
Speaker 3: that space, and when that becomes a threat, that's when

675
00:46:19,653 --> 00:46:25,253
Speaker 3: they start to try and ban them using dubious legal weapons.

676
00:46:25,493 --> 00:46:27,733
Speaker 3: It's certainly true of the AfD epasion. The last couple

677
00:46:27,773 --> 00:46:30,893
Speaker 3: of Poles, I think, for the first time, has majority

678
00:46:30,893 --> 00:46:35,613
Speaker 3: support nationally in the UK. Not forget about local elections

679
00:46:35,693 --> 00:46:40,333
Speaker 3: nationally now reform is polling number one, and conserves and

680
00:46:40,413 --> 00:46:43,373
Speaker 3: labor are buying for number two and three. So this

681
00:46:44,573 --> 00:46:48,053
Speaker 3: both by an eys of farage that he's going to

682
00:46:48,093 --> 00:46:51,013
Speaker 3: be the next prime minister, and most recently, I think

683
00:46:51,013 --> 00:46:53,973
Speaker 3: while I was there he assessed his chances at forty

684
00:46:54,013 --> 00:46:56,893
Speaker 3: five percent that he'll be the next prime minister. There

685
00:46:56,973 --> 00:47:00,613
Speaker 3: is a truth truth to that. It's what explains Trump's

686
00:47:00,653 --> 00:47:04,773
Speaker 3: remarkable political comeback, that he speaks to the majority view

687
00:47:04,893 --> 00:47:10,693
Speaker 3: outside of elite consensus in the medi world centers. And

688
00:47:10,733 --> 00:47:15,413
Speaker 3: that's where Peter doesn't has missed out in Australia. It's

689
00:47:15,453 --> 00:47:20,093
Speaker 3: been true in Canada. Again, it may be that Winston

690
00:47:20,133 --> 00:47:26,173
Speaker 3: Peters represents that gathering majority point of view in New

691
00:47:26,293 --> 00:47:31,453
Speaker 3: Zealand as well. So I think if the elite parties

692
00:47:31,693 --> 00:47:36,613
Speaker 3: maintain the uniparty consensus and give the one finger sign

693
00:47:38,053 --> 00:47:40,573
Speaker 3: to the electorate in terms of what the people want,

694
00:47:41,653 --> 00:47:44,653
Speaker 3: then there will be others who will rise to take

695
00:47:44,733 --> 00:47:48,613
Speaker 3: up that space, and they will complain about the far

696
00:47:48,693 --> 00:47:51,693
Speaker 3: right becoming dominant. Well, the way to avoid the far

697
00:47:51,773 --> 00:47:55,053
Speaker 3: right becoming dominant is to speak to the political center.

698
00:47:55,493 --> 00:47:58,893
Speaker 3: So the overturn window that is called what's become possible

699
00:47:58,893 --> 00:48:03,213
Speaker 3: to discuss and to move on will have to open

700
00:48:03,333 --> 00:48:09,013
Speaker 3: up to these movements and these forces. Otherwise I think

701
00:48:09,053 --> 00:48:11,973
Speaker 3: we're going to head for a revolution which will not

702
00:48:12,173 --> 00:48:18,933
Speaker 3: necessarily be peaceful. So I think my sense is that

703
00:48:19,013 --> 00:48:22,693
Speaker 3: the push track is going to intensify, and either one

704
00:48:22,733 --> 00:48:25,613
Speaker 3: of the established party's senses that and response to that,

705
00:48:26,733 --> 00:48:30,213
Speaker 3: or they get pushed aside and we'll see the emergence

706
00:48:30,573 --> 00:48:35,453
Speaker 3: of so called populist leaders movements parties in every country

707
00:48:35,453 --> 00:48:38,653
Speaker 3: one after the other. And again Poland is a good

708
00:48:38,693 --> 00:48:43,253
Speaker 3: example of a party that remains in this sense sensible

709
00:48:43,453 --> 00:48:47,013
Speaker 3: and prepared to protect what it believes in If you

710
00:48:47,053 --> 00:48:50,173
Speaker 3: don't have core values and convictions that you're prepared to

711
00:48:50,213 --> 00:48:54,773
Speaker 3: act on, you're lost to the society and people who

712
00:48:54,853 --> 00:48:59,853
Speaker 3: demonstrate that. So there is more scope for authenticity, and

713
00:48:59,933 --> 00:49:02,733
Speaker 3: that is another reason for the popularity of Trump, of

714
00:49:02,853 --> 00:49:06,173
Speaker 3: Miloney or Victor oband in Hungary of Nigel Faraje. In

715
00:49:06,213 --> 00:49:10,173
Speaker 3: the UK, people's sense that at least they say what

716
00:49:10,173 --> 00:49:13,773
Speaker 3: they mean, they do what they say, and they prepare

717
00:49:13,813 --> 00:49:16,813
Speaker 3: to fight for what they believe in instead of pandering

718
00:49:16,853 --> 00:49:22,573
Speaker 3: to the latest fad and the latest outbreak of political correctness.

719
00:49:22,773 --> 00:49:25,653
Speaker 3: And there is a great hunger in the electorate for

720
00:49:25,813 --> 00:49:31,093
Speaker 3: those sorts of leaders who can connect both emotionally and intellectually,

721
00:49:31,613 --> 00:49:35,773
Speaker 3: explain why somethings matter, and explain what they intend to

722
00:49:35,813 --> 00:49:39,133
Speaker 3: do and how they intend to get to that shared destination,

723
00:49:39,813 --> 00:49:45,413
Speaker 3: rather than take the knee and bend to the political

724
00:49:45,773 --> 00:49:46,533
Speaker 3: cross windsor so.

725
00:49:46,613 --> 00:49:50,133
Speaker 2: Give me a number out of out of ten that

726
00:49:50,253 --> 00:49:54,413
Speaker 2: you would that you would give Peter Dunton on what

727
00:49:54,493 --> 00:49:56,133
Speaker 2: you've just said.

728
00:49:57,333 --> 00:50:00,093
Speaker 3: I think he's been a disappointment. Give me a number,

729
00:50:00,333 --> 00:50:04,813
Speaker 3: maybe maybe four if you're generous.

730
00:50:04,493 --> 00:50:08,853
Speaker 2: Fudly enough. Given three, yeah, well, funnily enough, the three

731
00:50:08,973 --> 00:50:10,773
Speaker 2: I was going to say the four is close to

732
00:50:10,813 --> 00:50:14,693
Speaker 2: where I was, but three is the best best I

733
00:50:14,693 --> 00:50:19,293
Speaker 2: can do now. The question then is why is he

734
00:50:19,373 --> 00:50:23,653
Speaker 2: the leader of the Liberal Party? Where where is the talent?

735
00:50:26,013 --> 00:50:28,253
Speaker 3: The talent is there? You know who I'd like as

736
00:50:28,333 --> 00:50:30,933
Speaker 3: leader of the liborbody. Of all the people they have today,

737
00:50:31,933 --> 00:50:35,533
Speaker 3: just enterprise, jeez, I'm not surprised she is the closest

738
00:50:35,613 --> 00:50:39,613
Speaker 3: they have. I'm not surprised to people to the sorts

739
00:50:39,613 --> 00:50:41,933
Speaker 3: of people you are discussing, and I like people like

740
00:50:42,133 --> 00:50:45,133
Speaker 3: Alex Antick and Matt Canavan on the front bench.

741
00:50:45,573 --> 00:50:46,773
Speaker 2: You must be a right winger.

742
00:50:48,333 --> 00:50:52,253
Speaker 3: I'm far right, Okay, I'm far right. I just stood

743
00:50:52,293 --> 00:50:54,813
Speaker 3: still in the world turned around and where I was

744
00:50:54,853 --> 00:50:59,213
Speaker 3: far left has become far right, such as life.

745
00:50:58,293 --> 00:51:01,813
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, the idea is you improve as you grow,

746
00:51:02,413 --> 00:51:04,613
Speaker 2: so you're on You're on track. Look, I want to

747
00:51:04,973 --> 00:51:09,733
Speaker 2: I want to concentrate on on Trump for the Trump's

748
00:51:09,853 --> 00:51:14,053
Speaker 2: entire political history. You write is a cautionary tale against

749
00:51:14,053 --> 00:51:20,973
Speaker 2: confusing elite and media fury for heartland site sentiment. A

750
00:51:20,973 --> 00:51:26,053
Speaker 2: certain strategic coherence at a common tactic unite Trump's domestic

751
00:51:26,093 --> 00:51:29,533
Speaker 2: and foreign policies in pursuit of the overarching goal of

752
00:51:29,533 --> 00:51:35,253
Speaker 2: making America great again. The bigger concern is not that

753
00:51:35,293 --> 00:51:39,053
Speaker 2: there's no method to his apparent madness, but that the

754
00:51:39,133 --> 00:51:44,053
Speaker 2: implementation of his ambitious national and international agenda could be

755
00:51:44,133 --> 00:51:49,693
Speaker 2: imperiled by incompetence and bumbling, as with the amateurish use

756
00:51:49,853 --> 00:51:57,093
Speaker 2: of signal chat groups for highly sensitive discussions. Pick it

757
00:51:57,213 --> 00:52:01,413
Speaker 2: up from there and tell us why you wrote a column.

758
00:52:02,173 --> 00:52:03,893
Speaker 2: Trump's tariffs make sense.

759
00:52:05,933 --> 00:52:09,613
Speaker 3: Well, if you look at the head lines and the

760
00:52:09,653 --> 00:52:15,453
Speaker 3: analysis in the media and the dominant consensus amos the

761
00:52:15,533 --> 00:52:19,213
Speaker 3: elites on his tariff policy. That's where it started off. Obviously,

762
00:52:19,613 --> 00:52:26,453
Speaker 3: I'm not an economist, and the economic orthodoxy agrees that

763
00:52:26,573 --> 00:52:29,413
Speaker 3: tariffs are a bad idea, that they cause you harm,

764
00:52:29,653 --> 00:52:33,893
Speaker 3: that damage your consumers and effect your bottom line, et cetera,

765
00:52:33,933 --> 00:52:38,573
Speaker 3: et cetera, which may or may not be correct. But

766
00:52:38,653 --> 00:52:42,893
Speaker 3: the reality is decades of globalization and opening up your

767
00:52:43,093 --> 00:52:49,573
Speaker 3: borders and pursuing free trade have resulted in the industrialization

768
00:52:50,773 --> 00:52:57,013
Speaker 3: wastelands where they used to be thriving industrial production, a

769
00:52:57,093 --> 00:53:03,813
Speaker 3: loss of manufacturing capacity, and jobless growth. Whether economy grows overall,

770
00:53:04,693 --> 00:53:09,693
Speaker 3: for the standards of living and wages have not kept pace.

771
00:53:09,893 --> 00:53:12,893
Speaker 3: Even with the rise in cost of living, so that

772
00:53:12,973 --> 00:53:16,573
Speaker 3: for the first time, the next generation will be poorer

773
00:53:17,133 --> 00:53:22,733
Speaker 3: than the previous generation. And the rebellion against that caused

774
00:53:23,173 --> 00:53:27,853
Speaker 3: not the least by pursuit of these crazy policies where

775
00:53:28,213 --> 00:53:32,013
Speaker 3: we want to appoint people not just at a recruitment level,

776
00:53:32,053 --> 00:53:36,053
Speaker 3: but now we're in senior positions of decision making in

777
00:53:36,133 --> 00:53:42,613
Speaker 3: public and private institutions based on criteria of race and gender,

778
00:53:42,693 --> 00:53:49,213
Speaker 3: et cetera, rather than on merit and accomplishments, while providing

779
00:53:49,893 --> 00:53:55,653
Speaker 3: or creating an infrastructure that encourages equality of opportunity rather

780
00:53:55,693 --> 00:54:03,373
Speaker 3: than achieve rather than lifestyle based on inherited attributes. And

781
00:54:03,453 --> 00:54:07,173
Speaker 3: so he's rebelling against that and has tried to act

782
00:54:07,293 --> 00:54:09,893
Speaker 3: with a sense of urgency because he's only got one

783
00:54:09,973 --> 00:54:13,213
Speaker 3: term and he remembers what happened with the elites pushing

784
00:54:13,253 --> 00:54:17,213
Speaker 3: back in the first term. You see these policies in

785
00:54:17,253 --> 00:54:22,013
Speaker 3: opposition to DEI, in abandonment of net zero climate change parispact,

786
00:54:23,333 --> 00:54:28,293
Speaker 3: on the trade front and other areas as well, and

787
00:54:28,333 --> 00:54:33,573
Speaker 3: then immigration as a crossboard or on border issue. You know,

788
00:54:33,813 --> 00:54:36,173
Speaker 3: they don't even know was the ten million or twenty

789
00:54:36,213 --> 00:54:39,853
Speaker 3: million people who came into the US illegally under the

790
00:54:39,853 --> 00:54:40,693
Speaker 3: Bible dustry.

791
00:54:40,813 --> 00:54:43,853
Speaker 2: It's extraordinary variation in numbers.

792
00:54:44,213 --> 00:54:48,013
Speaker 3: Yeah, because they didn't move and keep records. But I

793
00:54:48,053 --> 00:54:52,773
Speaker 3: mean it's an extraordinary statistic. Why is that not actually

794
00:54:52,773 --> 00:54:56,573
Speaker 3: any innovation sort of thing? And then internationally, of course,

795
00:54:57,213 --> 00:55:02,773
Speaker 3: the inexorable slide of wealth and power to China, done

796
00:55:02,773 --> 00:55:06,573
Speaker 3: with the help of Western countries and the determination to

797
00:55:06,573 --> 00:55:09,213
Speaker 3: stop that, and if just and how do you say

798
00:55:09,213 --> 00:55:12,013
Speaker 3: that in my forthcoming article, if we just think of that,

799
00:55:13,893 --> 00:55:16,373
Speaker 3: one of the things that has been brought home in

800
00:55:16,573 --> 00:55:22,693
Speaker 3: Ukraine is how quickly Russia was able to upscale its

801
00:55:22,813 --> 00:55:27,733
Speaker 3: armament's production and move from production in the factory to

802
00:55:27,853 --> 00:55:32,173
Speaker 3: delivery on the battlefront, and the glacial speed with which

803
00:55:32,973 --> 00:55:35,213
Speaker 3: the West has tried to respond to that, so that

804
00:55:36,013 --> 00:55:39,733
Speaker 3: the assistance that we've given to Ukraine has ended up

805
00:55:39,813 --> 00:55:43,853
Speaker 3: depleting our own stocks of these munitions, and we can't

806
00:55:43,893 --> 00:55:46,333
Speaker 3: do that. You think of the time it takes to

807
00:55:46,333 --> 00:55:49,453
Speaker 3: build one warship today in the US compared to the

808
00:55:49,533 --> 00:55:52,293
Speaker 3: number they were producing per month during the Second World War,

809
00:55:53,053 --> 00:55:55,773
Speaker 3: and you'll get an idea of the difference. Did you know,

810
00:55:55,853 --> 00:56:00,373
Speaker 3: for example, that in four years recently China has built

811
00:56:00,373 --> 00:56:05,613
Speaker 3: an entire fleet equivalent to the total British Royal Navy fleet.

812
00:56:06,893 --> 00:56:12,453
Speaker 2: Did I know that, not specifically, No.

813
00:56:11,213 --> 00:56:14,013
Speaker 3: That's an extraordinary thing to think about. So China can

814
00:56:14,053 --> 00:56:17,853
Speaker 3: produce these things. And you know, the other thing we

815
00:56:17,973 --> 00:56:23,253
Speaker 3: learned from Ukraine is contrary to initial predictions and commentary,

816
00:56:23,973 --> 00:56:26,573
Speaker 3: in fact, Russia has been able to modernize and to

817
00:56:27,173 --> 00:56:33,573
Speaker 3: readjustice tactics and there is not that great qualitative discrepancy

818
00:56:33,613 --> 00:56:37,813
Speaker 3: between their munitions today and the Western ones that people

819
00:56:38,573 --> 00:56:41,453
Speaker 3: were saying at the start of it, and as German

820
00:56:41,813 --> 00:56:44,453
Speaker 3: products that are failing on the battle, et cetera. So

821
00:56:44,493 --> 00:56:47,733
Speaker 3: I think if you think of that and you think, well,

822
00:56:47,893 --> 00:56:50,733
Speaker 3: what it we were to end up in a shooting

823
00:56:50,773 --> 00:56:55,773
Speaker 3: war with China, short of nuclear war, you will not

824
00:56:55,813 --> 00:56:58,173
Speaker 3: be able to sustain a military conflict for any length

825
00:56:58,213 --> 00:57:00,853
Speaker 3: of time because we don't have the capacity to do

826
00:57:00,893 --> 00:57:06,333
Speaker 3: that today. And that's because we outsourced an offshore and

827
00:57:06,533 --> 00:57:11,973
Speaker 3: made ourselves dependent on critical long supply chains. So the

828
00:57:12,053 --> 00:57:14,293
Speaker 3: tariffs are a way of in that sense, they become

829
00:57:14,293 --> 00:57:17,373
Speaker 3: a strategic choice for which there is an economic price.

830
00:57:18,093 --> 00:57:20,533
Speaker 3: But if you're going to engage in a sustain conflict

831
00:57:20,613 --> 00:57:23,133
Speaker 3: along the lines of the Two Wars to World Wars

832
00:57:23,133 --> 00:57:26,453
Speaker 3: that lasted for several years. You have to have that

833
00:57:26,493 --> 00:57:31,493
Speaker 3: sort of industrial capacity at home, and that applies. I mean,

834
00:57:31,693 --> 00:57:33,693
Speaker 3: obviously you're not in the same skate in Australia and

835
00:57:33,773 --> 00:57:38,093
Speaker 3: usually isn't there at all. But our industrial capacity has

836
00:57:38,133 --> 00:57:42,133
Speaker 3: also holed out all in the name of economic efficiency,

837
00:57:42,573 --> 00:57:46,213
Speaker 3: lower prices for the consumer, whether or not it produces

838
00:57:46,253 --> 00:57:49,213
Speaker 3: more jobs at home, whether or not it increases our

839
00:57:49,253 --> 00:57:54,093
Speaker 3: dependence on potential adversaries. So in that sense, if they're

840
00:57:54,133 --> 00:57:58,213
Speaker 3: convinced that China is a real enemy, the tariffs becomes

841
00:57:58,213 --> 00:58:03,093
Speaker 3: a way means and a strategic tactic, a strategic ploy

842
00:58:04,453 --> 00:58:09,773
Speaker 3: to reverse offshoring and instead reshow manifact in capacity back

843
00:58:09,773 --> 00:58:12,853
Speaker 3: in the American heartland. We already know that the United

844
00:58:12,893 --> 00:58:16,613
Speaker 3: States remains the most innovative and the best balanced economy,

845
00:58:17,573 --> 00:58:19,373
Speaker 3: but I think they want to make it also once

846
00:58:19,373 --> 00:58:23,893
Speaker 3: again the manufacturing powerhouse for the world, or at least

847
00:58:23,933 --> 00:58:28,053
Speaker 3: move away song items from China are two countries like India. Maybe,

848
00:58:28,333 --> 00:58:32,333
Speaker 3: So in that sense, there is a certain strategic logic

849
00:58:32,573 --> 00:58:36,333
Speaker 3: to everything he is doing, and that is we have

850
00:58:36,373 --> 00:58:39,613
Speaker 3: to restore our self confidence. We have to restore pride

851
00:58:39,973 --> 00:58:42,173
Speaker 3: in what we stand forward be, meaning both the America

852
00:58:42,653 --> 00:58:47,933
Speaker 3: and the Western generally, we need to end the orgy

853
00:58:48,013 --> 00:58:52,493
Speaker 3: of national self amazement, and we need to think strategically

854
00:58:52,533 --> 00:58:58,253
Speaker 3: and long term about what if we end up in

855
00:58:58,293 --> 00:59:03,173
Speaker 3: a prolonged trade and heaven forbid milt you over China.

856
00:59:03,573 --> 00:59:06,253
Speaker 3: Are we going to be able to sustain it so

857
00:59:06,333 --> 00:59:08,693
Speaker 3: that at the end of it we prevail or are

858
00:59:08,733 --> 00:59:12,213
Speaker 3: you going to accept defeat? So if you think that

859
00:59:12,973 --> 00:59:16,133
Speaker 3: to any situation, and the old logic of military preparations

860
00:59:16,133 --> 00:59:22,413
Speaker 3: and preparedness, whether you win or lose a war is

861
00:59:22,493 --> 00:59:26,053
Speaker 3: not answered on the day the war breaks out. It's

862
00:59:26,093 --> 00:59:28,293
Speaker 3: answered in the years and decads leading up to that.

863
00:59:29,133 --> 00:59:32,013
Speaker 3: If you have the capacity not just the military, but

864
00:59:32,093 --> 00:59:36,293
Speaker 3: the industrial capacity and the economic capacity to sustain and

865
00:59:36,373 --> 00:59:39,333
Speaker 3: prevail in a major war, and that's the way I

866
00:59:39,373 --> 00:59:43,893
Speaker 3: think the coherence element comes in. But in implementation it's

867
00:59:43,933 --> 00:59:48,573
Speaker 3: been surprisingly amateurs and they're paying a political price for

868
00:59:48,613 --> 00:59:50,853
Speaker 3: that at the moment. I hope they recover in time,

869
00:59:50,973 --> 00:59:54,853
Speaker 3: but we'll wait and see. But one thing I might

870
00:59:54,893 --> 00:59:59,013
Speaker 3: add to that is too many opponents have under estimated

871
00:59:59,053 --> 01:00:02,573
Speaker 3: Donald Trump to their own cost in the past, so

872
01:00:03,213 --> 01:00:05,413
Speaker 3: I think we need to bear that in mind. He

873
01:00:05,493 --> 01:00:11,613
Speaker 3: is not your conventional politician. Everything he says says is

874
01:00:11,653 --> 01:00:17,133
Speaker 3: in as an opening gambit in a complex protected negotiation,

875
01:00:17,853 --> 01:00:20,053
Speaker 3: or sometimes I think he's just trolling his abbondance.

876
01:00:20,493 --> 01:00:23,573
Speaker 2: Okay, so you you read him very well? How did

877
01:00:23,613 --> 01:00:26,173
Speaker 2: that come about? Did you read a book or two?

878
01:00:26,413 --> 01:00:29,293
Speaker 2: Did you work it out yourself? Do you have insight

879
01:00:29,373 --> 01:00:31,093
Speaker 2: into a bit of psychology?

880
01:00:33,253 --> 01:00:33,653
Speaker 3: I think.

881
01:00:35,253 --> 01:00:38,053
Speaker 2: Okay? And I accept that.

882
01:00:38,213 --> 01:00:41,093
Speaker 3: I accept that that was only myself.

883
01:00:41,133 --> 01:00:45,293
Speaker 2: That was that was that was only the introduction to

884
01:00:45,373 --> 01:00:48,293
Speaker 2: the question. And I think you just answered it, you

885
01:00:48,413 --> 01:00:51,813
Speaker 2: think for yourself. But why is it that there are

886
01:00:51,853 --> 01:00:54,653
Speaker 2: so many people who can't grasp it? And and that's

887
01:00:54,693 --> 01:00:56,453
Speaker 2: the majority majority of people by far?

888
01:00:56,573 --> 01:01:01,173
Speaker 3: Really well with Trump with Americans, let's stick to that.

889
01:01:02,533 --> 01:01:06,853
Speaker 3: You get two caps. His supporters are only two, well

890
01:01:06,893 --> 01:01:11,693
Speaker 3: aware of his character flaws and other flaws, and are

891
01:01:11,693 --> 01:01:15,533
Speaker 3: prepared to overlook that in looking at policies and results.

892
01:01:16,613 --> 01:01:20,373
Speaker 3: His critics can never get beyond his character flaws and

893
01:01:20,413 --> 01:01:24,693
Speaker 3: his obvious vulgarity and crudeness, and therefore never look at

894
01:01:24,893 --> 01:01:30,693
Speaker 3: his actual policies and achievements. So his supporters discount his

895
01:01:30,813 --> 01:01:35,013
Speaker 3: rhetoric and take his policy seriously. His critics and opponents

896
01:01:35,613 --> 01:01:40,493
Speaker 3: takes his words seriously and ignore and discount his actual policies.

897
01:01:40,933 --> 01:01:45,013
Speaker 3: And that's where the problem comes in. So the effort

898
01:01:45,053 --> 01:01:48,693
Speaker 3: by the Democrats to keep insisting, and he's sitting even

899
01:01:48,733 --> 01:01:51,933
Speaker 3: more loudly. Look at his flaws, look at his well guarage,

900
01:01:52,013 --> 01:01:55,573
Speaker 3: look at his character. He's a convicted fellow. All that

901
01:01:56,693 --> 01:01:59,453
Speaker 3: was pointless in terms of changing the opinion of the

902
01:01:59,493 --> 01:02:03,573
Speaker 3: first group, and I think they've ended up in a

903
01:02:03,693 --> 01:02:06,253
Speaker 3: very strange position as a result. And we'll see what

904
01:02:07,093 --> 01:02:10,053
Speaker 3: next year's MITIM elections in Congress.

905
01:02:10,413 --> 01:02:13,693
Speaker 2: Well, big danger there that I actually agree with if

906
01:02:14,133 --> 01:02:22,373
Speaker 2: if he doesn't get things into place enough, they'll reject him.

907
01:02:23,013 --> 01:02:25,693
Speaker 3: I agree, But again we again, we'll have to be

908
01:02:25,733 --> 01:02:28,413
Speaker 3: careful that you don't mistake for the MSM and the

909
01:02:28,453 --> 01:02:32,573
Speaker 3: public intellectual lettering us call what the people think.

910
01:02:32,813 --> 01:02:35,173
Speaker 2: I want to quote you. I just want to quote you.

911
01:02:35,493 --> 01:02:38,133
Speaker 2: I want to quote you. The scandal over the alleged

912
01:02:38,133 --> 01:02:40,933
Speaker 2: corruption of the founder of the World Economic Forum in

913
01:02:41,053 --> 01:02:45,293
Speaker 2: Davos would be just an anecdote were it not another

914
01:02:45,413 --> 01:02:50,213
Speaker 2: example of what has happened recently with many international institutions.

915
01:02:50,493 --> 01:02:53,253
Speaker 2: The Financial Times reveals that the we HAVE founder faces

916
01:02:53,253 --> 01:02:59,333
Speaker 2: accusations of manipulating the organization's analysis to gain favor with governments.

917
01:02:59,853 --> 01:03:03,493
Speaker 2: Davos went from being a forum for debate to a

918
01:03:03,573 --> 01:03:10,053
Speaker 2: congregation for repeating interventionist dogmas and whitewashing a single extractive mindset.

919
01:03:10,693 --> 01:03:14,533
Speaker 2: Those who defended economic freedom, attractive taxes, and control over

920
01:03:14,573 --> 01:03:20,093
Speaker 2: public spending were gradually ostracized. We have heard enthusiastic applause

921
01:03:20,173 --> 01:03:24,573
Speaker 2: for those demanding more taxes and greater assaults on job creators,

922
01:03:25,253 --> 01:03:29,373
Speaker 2: and one sided debates in which all participants repeated cliches

923
01:03:29,413 --> 01:03:35,093
Speaker 2: and words like resilience and sustainability as trojan horses for

924
01:03:35,293 --> 01:03:39,653
Speaker 2: predatory statism, where the where the idea of creating value

925
01:03:39,693 --> 01:03:43,253
Speaker 2: and wealth was repudiated. Forget the last little bit, but

926
01:03:44,413 --> 01:03:48,413
Speaker 2: the question is was Davos ever really a place of

927
01:03:48,453 --> 01:03:49,293
Speaker 2: any importance.

928
01:03:51,453 --> 01:03:56,693
Speaker 6: I think initially it was a place for networking of

929
01:03:56,773 --> 01:03:59,733
Speaker 6: the high and mighty, the elite, the global elites, and

930
01:03:59,853 --> 01:04:02,733
Speaker 6: people wanted to go and wanted to be invited, and

931
01:04:02,773 --> 01:04:04,093
Speaker 6: it gave them status.

932
01:04:04,573 --> 01:04:09,853
Speaker 3: I think the underestimate the importance of craving states from

933
01:04:09,853 --> 01:04:13,093
Speaker 3: the group that matters to individuals. You know that as

934
01:04:13,093 --> 01:04:16,613
Speaker 3: a minor example. I'm sure that was a major factor

935
01:04:17,413 --> 01:04:21,853
Speaker 3: in Scott Morrison reversing his government's policy on net zero,

936
01:04:23,213 --> 01:04:25,573
Speaker 3: the fact that he got invited to some of these

937
01:04:26,213 --> 01:04:29,453
Speaker 3: G seven summit as a guest stoke phys ego in

938
01:04:29,493 --> 01:04:32,533
Speaker 3: that sense, and to belong to the club he had

939
01:04:32,573 --> 01:04:38,293
Speaker 3: to subscribe to the cop beliefs in Gasgow when he

940
01:04:38,373 --> 01:04:41,533
Speaker 3: first retreated from that. So there is an element of that.

941
01:04:42,653 --> 01:04:50,413
Speaker 3: And once in power, a surprising number of politicians gave

942
01:04:50,653 --> 01:04:54,453
Speaker 3: the status of fellow leaders from around the world, even

943
01:04:54,493 --> 01:04:58,413
Speaker 3: at the cost of their own people's approbation after that,

944
01:04:59,253 --> 01:05:02,773
Speaker 3: and there is that factor. Now will that change after

945
01:05:02,853 --> 01:05:06,133
Speaker 3: this I don't know, but certainly in recent times the

946
01:05:06,253 --> 01:05:11,133
Speaker 3: phrase the divers man has become a presorative phrase rather

947
01:05:11,173 --> 01:05:14,933
Speaker 3: than something to be admired, and I think in the

948
01:05:14,933 --> 01:05:18,853
Speaker 3: current elections in Canada, I think it will happen in Australia.

949
01:05:19,653 --> 01:05:24,293
Speaker 3: People will run to dissociate themselves from ever having attended

950
01:05:25,053 --> 01:05:29,373
Speaker 3: a w A forum or meeting, rather than thought that

951
01:05:30,133 --> 01:05:35,013
Speaker 3: as a credential for voting for them. So I don't

952
01:05:35,053 --> 01:05:37,093
Speaker 3: know how many people in New Zealand have attended any

953
01:05:37,133 --> 01:05:44,373
Speaker 3: of these forums, but certainly important networking them and getting

954
01:05:44,413 --> 01:05:47,653
Speaker 3: them into international positions or advisory boards.

955
01:05:48,213 --> 01:05:54,613
Speaker 2: Sorry I just said yeah, okay, which reminds me. There

956
01:05:54,653 --> 01:05:59,093
Speaker 2: was a There is a piece in the Spectator of

957
01:05:59,093 --> 01:06:04,373
Speaker 2: Australia this week just Cinder a Dern and the empty

958
01:06:04,413 --> 01:06:05,853
Speaker 2: politics of kindness.

959
01:06:05,973 --> 01:06:10,333
Speaker 3: Oh, Michael Jackson, that's actually from Spectator UK. That'd be

960
01:06:10,413 --> 01:06:12,813
Speaker 3: really produced. You know that my Jackon has a New

961
01:06:12,853 --> 01:06:18,053
Speaker 3: Zealand connection. No, he was at Canterbury. He was. He

962
01:06:18,413 --> 01:06:21,133
Speaker 3: was from England and I know him. He was a canyon.

963
01:06:21,133 --> 01:06:23,253
Speaker 3: In fact, in my trip to London, I had lunch

964
01:06:23,253 --> 01:06:25,693
Speaker 3: with him and I talked about this article that he

965
01:06:25,733 --> 01:06:32,253
Speaker 3: was just written. Indeed, but he was at Canterbury. He

966
01:06:32,413 --> 01:06:37,413
Speaker 3: was so disgusted with New Zealand's COVID policies that he

967
01:06:37,533 --> 01:06:41,453
Speaker 3: decided to return to England. He never did get vaccinated

968
01:06:42,253 --> 01:06:45,853
Speaker 3: and he returned home. He was co founder of New

969
01:06:45,973 --> 01:06:47,053
Speaker 3: Zealand's COVID Plan B.

970
01:06:48,213 --> 01:06:49,973
Speaker 2: Do you think there's a Do you think there's a

971
01:06:50,093 --> 01:06:54,373
Speaker 2: case for removing the awards that were given to the

972
01:06:54,373 --> 01:06:59,813
Speaker 2: Prime Minister and her chief Science or her advisor Bluefield.

973
01:07:01,413 --> 01:07:05,173
Speaker 3: For COVID management? Yes? Absolutely. I think there's a very

974
01:07:05,213 --> 01:07:08,853
Speaker 3: strong case for accountability. Yes, and I don't think that's

975
01:07:08,853 --> 01:07:12,413
Speaker 3: going to happened in the imminent future. But you know,

976
01:07:13,093 --> 01:07:16,893
Speaker 3: on one side, you feel angry that amongst Joe Biden's

977
01:07:16,893 --> 01:07:21,813
Speaker 3: final acts was pardoning Anthony Fauci. On the other at

978
01:07:21,813 --> 01:07:26,133
Speaker 3: the very least, that's an implicit admission of guilt. You

979
01:07:26,133 --> 01:07:31,693
Speaker 3: can't get pardoned for something that you haven't done as wrong.

980
01:07:33,053 --> 01:07:38,613
Speaker 3: And it also makes it easier now to demand answers

981
01:07:38,613 --> 01:07:41,293
Speaker 3: from him because he no longer has the defense of

982
01:07:42,213 --> 01:07:45,653
Speaker 3: I don't want to incriminate myself. He can't be prosecuted,

983
01:07:45,693 --> 01:07:48,533
Speaker 3: so he has no reason not to answer. And of

984
01:07:48,573 --> 01:07:50,573
Speaker 3: course one of the things that Trump has done, which

985
01:07:50,613 --> 01:07:54,653
Speaker 3: I like very much, is he's moved into position at

986
01:07:54,653 --> 01:07:58,893
Speaker 3: the top levels people who are early and consistent critics

987
01:07:58,893 --> 01:08:03,213
Speaker 3: of the COVID policy madness, like Jef Dagaria as head

988
01:08:03,253 --> 01:08:06,013
Speaker 3: of the National Institue of Wealth, like Marty McCary as

989
01:08:06,053 --> 01:08:10,573
Speaker 3: head of the FDA, and so on. So I think

990
01:08:10,653 --> 01:08:14,533
Speaker 3: in time they will want accountability, and certainly the awards

991
01:08:15,013 --> 01:08:17,933
Speaker 3: like the knighthoods two people in the UK, like the

992
01:08:18,053 --> 01:08:23,053
Speaker 3: Australian Order of Australia that we've given hearth to people

993
01:08:23,493 --> 01:08:29,893
Speaker 3: who betrayed the interests of the citizens and imposed unnecessary

994
01:08:30,013 --> 01:08:35,853
Speaker 3: and before not twenty twenty, unimaginable cruelty in the name

995
01:08:35,893 --> 01:08:40,853
Speaker 3: of containing COVID. They do need to be held to account,

996
01:08:41,373 --> 01:08:44,053
Speaker 3: and I hope I lot live long enough to see it,

997
01:08:44,133 --> 01:08:45,013
Speaker 3: although I doubt it.

998
01:08:45,853 --> 01:08:47,093
Speaker 2: I'm pondering an answer to that.

999
01:08:48,813 --> 01:08:52,293
Speaker 3: Well, let me explain on that. I think crimes that

1000
01:08:52,333 --> 01:08:58,053
Speaker 3: are committed do require punishment, so I include punitive justification

1001
01:08:58,213 --> 01:09:03,893
Speaker 3: as one reason. A second justification is emotional closure. The

1002
01:09:04,013 --> 01:09:07,653
Speaker 3: number of people who are affected is in the millions.

1003
01:09:08,813 --> 01:09:11,973
Speaker 3: People who are not able to say goodbye to elderly

1004
01:09:12,053 --> 01:09:16,333
Speaker 3: parents and grandparents before their death, who died deaths of

1005
01:09:16,373 --> 01:09:19,733
Speaker 3: despair and loneliness, people who are not able to attend

1006
01:09:19,893 --> 01:09:27,533
Speaker 3: other important family landmarks, the loss of schooling for children,

1007
01:09:27,893 --> 01:09:31,133
Speaker 3: the whole range of things. There's not going to be

1008
01:09:31,213 --> 01:09:35,213
Speaker 3: emotional closure to them unless the wrongs that were done

1009
01:09:35,253 --> 01:09:39,573
Speaker 3: are publicly acknowledged and people who were responsible for that

1010
01:09:40,173 --> 01:09:44,213
Speaker 3: are shamed and or otherwise punished. And this is something

1011
01:09:44,253 --> 01:09:48,133
Speaker 3: that I bring over from my professional interest in masatrocities.

1012
01:09:48,493 --> 01:09:51,013
Speaker 3: So that's the second argument for that, and the third

1013
01:09:51,133 --> 01:09:55,693
Speaker 3: argument is a simple one of returns. Your best antidote

1014
01:09:56,373 --> 01:10:01,453
Speaker 3: or your best strategy for avoiding a repetition of such

1015
01:10:01,613 --> 01:10:06,693
Speaker 3: cruelty and anti scientific policy insanity is to punish those

1016
01:10:06,693 --> 01:10:11,453
Speaker 3: who are responsible. But if you keep grunting them endless impunity,

1017
01:10:12,293 --> 01:10:15,333
Speaker 3: they don't think twice again, they just repeat it. So

1018
01:10:15,373 --> 01:10:19,053
Speaker 3: I think there are three powerful arguments of justice being

1019
01:10:19,093 --> 01:10:23,253
Speaker 3: seen to be done, emotional closure and the terms of

1020
01:10:24,093 --> 01:10:26,933
Speaker 3: such activities in the future. And if you don't do that,

1021
01:10:27,853 --> 01:10:32,453
Speaker 3: we will suffer repeat of that in endless cycles until

1022
01:10:32,453 --> 01:10:35,613
Speaker 3: someone realizes that we need to take some action against

1023
01:10:35,613 --> 01:10:39,413
Speaker 3: the perpetrators, otherwise it will happen again and again.

1024
01:10:39,693 --> 01:10:43,653
Speaker 2: Well, speaking of happening again and again, that leads me

1025
01:10:43,693 --> 01:10:47,173
Speaker 2: onto the World Health Organization. And I don't know whether

1026
01:10:47,173 --> 01:10:53,373
Speaker 2: you've seen David Bell's piece that's on Brownstone today. Yes,

1027
01:10:54,253 --> 01:10:56,893
Speaker 2: but but I just I just want again.

1028
01:10:57,173 --> 01:11:02,253
Speaker 3: I met with him in London over three days, so

1029
01:11:02,293 --> 01:11:02,613
Speaker 3: it's a.

1030
01:11:02,613 --> 01:11:07,053
Speaker 2: Small world is shrinking even further now. He's a good man,

1031
01:11:07,533 --> 01:11:09,733
Speaker 2: and the two of you have very much in common.

1032
01:11:09,773 --> 01:11:11,933
Speaker 2: As I've said the said in the past both of you.

1033
01:11:12,093 --> 01:11:15,093
Speaker 2: Both of you have been involved with them, with the

1034
01:11:15,093 --> 01:11:20,413
Speaker 2: World Health Organization and the UN, and both of you

1035
01:11:20,613 --> 01:11:26,853
Speaker 2: have turned your back on them. So for those who

1036
01:11:26,973 --> 01:11:33,053
Speaker 2: don't yet understand, just briefly, the World Health Organization, we

1037
01:11:33,213 --> 01:11:36,613
Speaker 2: should as a country go along with their plans at

1038
01:11:36,893 --> 01:11:37,653
Speaker 2: this point of time.

1039
01:11:37,933 --> 01:11:45,213
Speaker 3: No, No, We both David and I and a lot

1040
01:11:45,253 --> 01:11:49,893
Speaker 3: of us subscribe very strongly to the principle of the

1041
01:11:49,973 --> 01:11:53,373
Speaker 3: need for an international health organization. But I've been a

1042
01:11:53,413 --> 01:11:56,533
Speaker 3: lifelong student of the UN system, as you know, and

1043
01:11:56,653 --> 01:12:00,093
Speaker 3: held the senior position in the system. I think any

1044
01:12:00,173 --> 01:12:05,133
Speaker 3: international organization that's been in existence for five, six, seven,

1045
01:12:05,213 --> 01:12:11,613
Speaker 3: eight decades has accumulated a set of vested interests that

1046
01:12:12,133 --> 01:12:17,653
Speaker 3: between them subvert its original mission and mandate to the

1047
01:12:17,773 --> 01:12:21,293
Speaker 3: interests of the organization. And we see elements of mission creep,

1048
01:12:21,413 --> 01:12:24,533
Speaker 3: and we see elements of compulsion and coalsion, and we

1049
01:12:24,613 --> 01:12:31,533
Speaker 3: see elements of elevating the international order above the member states,

1050
01:12:31,533 --> 01:12:35,173
Speaker 3: whereas they're meant to be servants of states agent. So

1051
01:12:35,293 --> 01:12:38,293
Speaker 3: the principle, if that is the case, what can we

1052
01:12:38,373 --> 01:12:41,973
Speaker 3: do to return to the foundational principles and purposes of

1053
01:12:42,013 --> 01:12:47,773
Speaker 3: the organization? And more importantly, can we reform the existing

1054
01:12:47,813 --> 01:12:52,613
Speaker 3: institutions or do we need to begin afresh? And I've

1055
01:12:52,653 --> 01:12:56,373
Speaker 3: concluded after bitter experience, if you like that, if you

1056
01:12:56,453 --> 01:12:59,293
Speaker 3: aim for reform, it will be counted the success. If

1057
01:12:59,293 --> 01:13:01,613
Speaker 3: you achieve five percent of what you set off with

1058
01:13:02,053 --> 01:13:05,333
Speaker 3: as your goals because you get caught in the process

1059
01:13:06,093 --> 01:13:10,413
Speaker 3: and it gets taken up by the intergovernmental modalities and prostities,

1060
01:13:10,893 --> 01:13:13,933
Speaker 3: and we end up with the lowest common denominator, which

1061
01:13:13,973 --> 01:13:17,653
Speaker 3: is just tinkering and no substantial things. And the best

1062
01:13:17,813 --> 01:13:21,133
Speaker 3: example of that is the UN Security Council, which is

1063
01:13:21,293 --> 01:13:25,173
Speaker 3: totally out of line with the existing reality and therefore

1064
01:13:25,573 --> 01:13:29,773
Speaker 3: the odd situation where it's resolutions and decisions have legal

1065
01:13:29,813 --> 01:13:34,213
Speaker 3: force but are increasingly illegitimate as well as most of

1066
01:13:34,213 --> 01:13:37,733
Speaker 3: the world is concerned. And you see that with countries defined,

1067
01:13:37,733 --> 01:13:42,533
Speaker 3: for example, the international Criminal courts indictment of both Plutin

1068
01:13:43,253 --> 01:13:47,373
Speaker 3: and Nathan Yahoo. So that's one element of that. And

1069
01:13:47,413 --> 01:13:49,093
Speaker 3: if you want to return, on the other hand, to

1070
01:13:49,173 --> 01:13:53,693
Speaker 3: foundational things, you are probably better off in terms of

1071
01:13:53,773 --> 01:13:58,213
Speaker 3: effort to look for a new organization that restores the

1072
01:13:58,253 --> 01:14:04,333
Speaker 3: balance between international, regional and national level authorities. And if

1073
01:14:04,373 --> 01:14:08,293
Speaker 3: you think of COVID, the striking feature was the regional

1074
01:14:08,413 --> 01:14:11,893
Speaker 3: variation where the big killer diseases in Africa remained the

1075
01:14:11,973 --> 01:14:18,893
Speaker 3: traditional ones for malaria, TV, HIV, AIDS, et cetera, and

1076
01:14:19,013 --> 01:14:22,213
Speaker 3: COVID was a minor bl bloom rather than a major factor,

1077
01:14:22,733 --> 01:14:26,973
Speaker 3: whereas for Western countries for Europe and North America and

1078
01:14:27,053 --> 01:14:30,013
Speaker 3: to someone in South America. COVID was a big factor.

1079
01:14:30,693 --> 01:14:35,013
Speaker 3: So it's better to return decision making authority to regional

1080
01:14:35,293 --> 01:14:38,613
Speaker 3: rather than international organizations and at the international level use

1081
01:14:38,613 --> 01:14:41,453
Speaker 3: it for coordination. So we are reverse. You are not

1082
01:14:41,493 --> 01:14:45,773
Speaker 3: averse to that, But the agreements that the International Health

1083
01:14:45,813 --> 01:14:49,693
Speaker 3: Regulations amendments that were passed and the Pandemic Agreement that

1084
01:14:49,733 --> 01:14:57,773
Speaker 3: has been negotiated, I think rewards the WHO for incompetence

1085
01:14:57,853 --> 01:15:04,733
Speaker 3: and mismanagement and gives it a vested interest to expand

1086
01:15:04,893 --> 01:15:11,253
Speaker 3: its resources and authority and powers by declaring emergencies when

1087
01:15:12,373 --> 01:15:15,693
Speaker 3: there is an on necessary reason to do so, and

1088
01:15:15,733 --> 01:15:19,773
Speaker 3: I think it becomes a matter of perverse incentives. So

1089
01:15:19,813 --> 01:15:23,933
Speaker 3: I think we need an international health organization, but better

1090
01:15:23,973 --> 01:15:28,613
Speaker 3: grounded in terms of the distribution of responsibilities and agency

1091
01:15:28,893 --> 01:15:36,253
Speaker 3: between international, regional, national, and even individuals level of responsibility.

1092
01:15:36,693 --> 01:15:39,773
Speaker 3: So I like to return to the principles of informed consent,

1093
01:15:40,453 --> 01:15:44,653
Speaker 3: the sanctity of doctor patient relationship, reliance on doctors in

1094
01:15:44,693 --> 01:15:49,173
Speaker 3: the clinic rather than bureaucrats in national and international capitals.

1095
01:15:49,733 --> 01:15:53,053
Speaker 3: For what the policy advice should be. Break the links

1096
01:15:53,053 --> 01:15:58,173
Speaker 3: between financial interest and decision making, break the links between

1097
01:15:58,253 --> 01:16:02,533
Speaker 3: big farmer in terms of funding, structures, et cetera. So

1098
01:16:02,573 --> 01:16:04,253
Speaker 3: there's a lot of things that need to be done

1099
01:16:04,293 --> 01:16:07,253
Speaker 3: if we have big items and what they are going,

1100
01:16:07,893 --> 01:16:11,293
Speaker 3: what they're doing is the wrong way around, and it's

1101
01:16:11,333 --> 01:16:18,093
Speaker 3: rewarding failures, is rewarding mafecens in some cases, and putting

1102
01:16:18,133 --> 01:16:21,853
Speaker 3: purpose incentives in place. So I'd like to work with

1103
01:16:22,013 --> 01:16:25,853
Speaker 3: David on a project where we look at, as I said,

1104
01:16:26,333 --> 01:16:32,053
Speaker 3: foundational issues and restructure it accordingly so it can return

1105
01:16:32,053 --> 01:16:33,853
Speaker 3: to that. And a good example of what I have

1106
01:16:33,893 --> 01:16:36,213
Speaker 3: in mind is if you look at the shift from

1107
01:16:36,213 --> 01:16:39,333
Speaker 3: the League of Nations in the interwar period the United

1108
01:16:39,453 --> 01:16:43,013
Speaker 3: Nations after the Second World War, many of the items

1109
01:16:43,013 --> 01:16:45,733
Speaker 3: in the Charter of the UN were taken over from

1110
01:16:45,733 --> 01:16:48,093
Speaker 3: the Covenant of the League of Nations. Many of the

1111
01:16:48,173 --> 01:16:51,333
Speaker 3: structures remain the same, many of the policies and goals

1112
01:16:51,373 --> 01:16:54,973
Speaker 3: remain the same, but for political reasons you wouldn't have

1113
01:16:55,013 --> 01:16:59,013
Speaker 3: got agreement or the powers that be that were important

1114
01:16:59,493 --> 01:17:01,453
Speaker 3: get kept the name the same, so we change and

1115
01:17:01,773 --> 01:17:05,653
Speaker 3: change the name. Other innovations that were put into the

1116
01:17:05,693 --> 01:17:09,253
Speaker 3: constitution of the Charter into the structure, well, I were

1117
01:17:09,533 --> 01:17:13,813
Speaker 3: innovations that in practice had already been initiated under the League.

1118
01:17:14,493 --> 01:17:16,613
Speaker 3: And then there was a third set, which are ideas

1119
01:17:16,613 --> 01:17:20,093
Speaker 3: that were circulating during the League but hadn't been implemented,

1120
01:17:20,653 --> 01:17:23,573
Speaker 3: which we implemented in the US system. The world quote

1121
01:17:23,653 --> 01:17:25,933
Speaker 3: is an example one that was taken right over from before.

1122
01:17:26,373 --> 01:17:29,413
Speaker 3: So you can keep the good parts, drop the bad parts,

1123
01:17:30,093 --> 01:17:34,053
Speaker 3: and embed the innovations, but in a much more rational

1124
01:17:34,213 --> 01:17:40,613
Speaker 3: and logical and sensible manner, returning to basic science, reducing

1125
01:17:40,653 --> 01:17:45,573
Speaker 3: the element of politicization, and cutting back the influence of

1126
01:17:45,693 --> 01:17:49,893
Speaker 3: groups that shouldn't have that influence in decision making in

1127
01:17:49,933 --> 01:17:53,613
Speaker 3: the first place. So yeah, as you can get from that,

1128
01:17:53,653 --> 01:17:56,213
Speaker 3: I think we still believe in the vision of an

1129
01:17:56,253 --> 01:17:59,693
Speaker 3: international organization, but want to return it to a minimalist

1130
01:18:00,893 --> 01:18:05,733
Speaker 3: coordinating role rather than directive command and control with too

1131
01:18:05,773 --> 01:18:10,533
Speaker 3: much power and that too much faith in the discretionary

1132
01:18:11,173 --> 01:18:15,573
Speaker 3: and decision making bodies of run by bureaucrats.

1133
01:18:16,693 --> 01:18:23,013
Speaker 2: That was an outstanding response, very logical and can I

1134
01:18:23,093 --> 01:18:28,013
Speaker 2: use the term common sense again, look very very quickly. Finally,

1135
01:18:29,413 --> 01:18:32,013
Speaker 2: I'm doing this for missus producer. She's very keen to

1136
01:18:32,053 --> 01:18:38,773
Speaker 2: know your thoughts on Kashmir and the military confrontation that

1137
01:18:38,813 --> 01:18:42,253
Speaker 2: took place between India and Pakistan recently. What was the

1138
01:18:42,293 --> 01:18:46,453
Speaker 2: twenty six people I think got killed. Is there likely

1139
01:18:46,493 --> 01:18:50,293
Speaker 2: to be a response, a military response do you think

1140
01:18:50,453 --> 01:18:52,093
Speaker 2: from India?

1141
01:18:53,093 --> 01:18:58,693
Speaker 3: Much more likely than not. I think that's because the

1142
01:18:58,813 --> 01:19:05,973
Speaker 3: Modi government has been committed to changing the underflying pattern

1143
01:19:06,173 --> 01:19:11,413
Speaker 3: of provocative actions and India goes into a reactive mode.

1144
01:19:11,733 --> 01:19:15,693
Speaker 3: We drew the lines of the dispute come conflict about

1145
01:19:15,733 --> 01:19:19,213
Speaker 3: six years ago now where for the first time Indian

1146
01:19:21,493 --> 01:19:26,613
Speaker 3: planes fired missiles deep into Pakistan proper rather than just

1147
01:19:26,653 --> 01:19:29,653
Speaker 3: into disputed Kashmi territory, and they up the ante in

1148
01:19:29,653 --> 01:19:32,173
Speaker 3: that sense. And the important point of that was not

1149
01:19:32,213 --> 01:19:34,533
Speaker 3: the details of what they achieved, but the message that

1150
01:19:34,573 --> 01:19:38,773
Speaker 3: were sent was there are no limits set by you

1151
01:19:38,973 --> 01:19:41,653
Speaker 3: as to how we will respond, but we will respond

1152
01:19:41,933 --> 01:19:44,093
Speaker 3: in a manner and a time of our choosing, and

1153
01:19:44,133 --> 01:19:48,333
Speaker 3: on targets of our choosing. That said, the couple of

1154
01:19:48,413 --> 01:19:51,013
Speaker 3: things that are different this time. The previous one in

1155
01:19:51,053 --> 01:19:54,813
Speaker 3: twenty nineteen was an attack by militants on the military

1156
01:19:54,853 --> 01:19:57,213
Speaker 3: or paramilitary convoy that killed the last number of people

1157
01:19:57,453 --> 01:20:00,653
Speaker 3: in the forties, a thing from memory. This time it

1158
01:20:00,773 --> 01:20:05,493
Speaker 3: was deliberately targeting tourists. So while I'll use the word

1159
01:20:05,573 --> 01:20:08,733
Speaker 3: militancy for the previous one. This one, and I think

1160
01:20:08,813 --> 01:20:12,373
Speaker 3: is satisfies all the core definitions of terrorism. It was

1161
01:20:12,413 --> 01:20:16,453
Speaker 3: an ultra terrorism to the point where now remember we're

1162
01:20:16,493 --> 01:20:23,093
Speaker 3: talking about Hindus and Muslims and Seeks. Mainly, they got

1163
01:20:23,133 --> 01:20:25,933
Speaker 3: the main folk to lower the trousers so they could

1164
01:20:26,253 --> 01:20:31,133
Speaker 3: distinguish the circumcise from the uncircumcised, spared the Muslim malls

1165
01:20:31,573 --> 01:20:34,253
Speaker 3: and went after the Hindu and Seek mills in this attack.

1166
01:20:34,813 --> 01:20:39,213
Speaker 3: I don't think they've succeeded in driving divisions between Hindus

1167
01:20:39,213 --> 01:20:42,733
Speaker 3: and Muslim and Seeks in customery yourself, I think there's

1168
01:20:42,773 --> 01:20:45,413
Speaker 3: a rare unanimility that as far as I can see

1169
01:20:45,533 --> 01:20:48,853
Speaker 3: across the political spectrum and the horror at what was done.

1170
01:20:50,133 --> 01:20:55,893
Speaker 3: But it's impossible to imagine the Maori government not taking

1171
01:20:55,973 --> 01:21:00,573
Speaker 3: some military action because that will undo decades worth of

1172
01:21:00,573 --> 01:21:05,053
Speaker 3: progress they've achieved in the strategic signaling with Pakistan, and

1173
01:21:05,093 --> 01:21:07,373
Speaker 3: I think politically they believe in for the exposed one.

1174
01:21:07,413 --> 01:21:10,293
Speaker 3: That's for me there's a minor consideration, but obviously for

1175
01:21:10,333 --> 01:21:14,013
Speaker 3: them it might be a bigger consideration, modified by the

1176
01:21:14,093 --> 01:21:16,293
Speaker 3: fact that they don't have to have elections for some

1177
01:21:16,413 --> 01:21:19,333
Speaker 3: time yet, but they're not going to leave themselves vulnerable.

1178
01:21:19,613 --> 01:21:24,333
Speaker 3: So I think there will be desperate communications between not

1179
01:21:24,413 --> 01:21:29,373
Speaker 3: just Indians and Pakistani authorities, but outside, particularly the Americans

1180
01:21:29,413 --> 01:21:32,573
Speaker 3: as well as possibly the Russian than some of the Europeans.

1181
01:21:33,373 --> 01:21:37,053
Speaker 3: Will it go out of control? I doubt it. I haven't.

1182
01:21:37,373 --> 01:21:39,933
Speaker 3: I mean, I've seen the allegations from the inside, but

1183
01:21:39,973 --> 01:21:45,493
Speaker 3: you haven't got evidence that is independently verified of Pakistani

1184
01:21:45,533 --> 01:21:48,493
Speaker 3: involvement and the extent of Pakistani involvement. Now, remember in

1185
01:21:48,533 --> 01:21:53,053
Speaker 3: Pakistan it's possible for the intelligence services to act independently

1186
01:21:53,093 --> 01:21:57,173
Speaker 3: of the government as well, so again there's degrees of

1187
01:21:57,173 --> 01:22:01,453
Speaker 3: culpability and deniability. But I just don't see Indian government

1188
01:22:01,653 --> 01:22:05,733
Speaker 3: not doing anything and not retaliating in some military form.

1189
01:22:05,973 --> 01:22:07,653
Speaker 3: And I don't think it will be just a minor thing.

1190
01:22:07,733 --> 01:22:09,613
Speaker 3: I think it will be court substantial.

1191
01:22:10,573 --> 01:22:15,653
Speaker 2: But you'll see I have sat here and considered myself

1192
01:22:15,693 --> 01:22:18,253
Speaker 2: to be in class for the last hour and a it.

1193
01:22:19,053 --> 01:22:24,053
Speaker 2: What I'm saying is that that's what the Education department needs,

1194
01:22:24,093 --> 01:22:27,213
Speaker 2: doesn't matter where it is is people of standing that

1195
01:22:27,293 --> 01:22:30,053
Speaker 2: you represent, and I say that unashamedly.

1196
01:22:30,613 --> 01:22:34,613
Speaker 3: You're very kind lesson as all this thank you, okay,

1197
01:22:34,853 --> 01:22:37,573
Speaker 3: look forward to it next time. Well when you what

1198
01:22:37,653 --> 01:22:40,413
Speaker 3: the results of the elections are this week in the meantime.

1199
01:22:40,133 --> 01:23:03,453
Speaker 2: Indeed, thanks y okay. Take Buckerlan is a natural oral

1200
01:23:03,533 --> 01:23:06,973
Speaker 2: vaccine in a tablet form called bacterial. I say it.

1201
01:23:06,973 --> 01:23:10,453
Speaker 2: It'll boost your natural protet against bacterial infections in your

1202
01:23:10,533 --> 01:23:13,733
Speaker 2: chest and throat. A three day course of seven Buckelan

1203
01:23:13,733 --> 01:23:16,173
Speaker 2: tablets will help your body build up to three months

1204
01:23:16,213 --> 01:23:21,013
Speaker 2: of immunity against bugs which cause bacterial cold symptoms. So

1205
01:23:21,013 --> 01:23:23,653
Speaker 2: who can take buccolan well, the whole family from two

1206
01:23:23,773 --> 01:23:26,933
Speaker 2: years of age and upwards. A course of buckelan tablets

1207
01:23:26,933 --> 01:23:30,453
Speaker 2: offers cost effective and safe protection from colds and chills.

1208
01:23:30,573 --> 01:23:34,173
Speaker 2: Protection becomes effective a few days after you take buccolan

1209
01:23:34,493 --> 01:23:36,893
Speaker 2: and lasts for up to three months following the three

1210
01:23:36,973 --> 01:23:40,213
Speaker 2: day course. Buccolan can be taken throughout the cold season,

1211
01:23:40,253 --> 01:23:43,373
Speaker 2: over winter, or all the year round. And remember Buckelan

1212
01:23:43,493 --> 01:23:47,213
Speaker 2: is not intended as an alternative to influenza vaccination, but

1213
01:23:47,373 --> 01:23:51,133
Speaker 2: may be used along with the flu vaccination for added protection.

1214
01:23:51,453 --> 01:23:53,933
Speaker 2: And keep in mind that millions of doses have been

1215
01:23:53,973 --> 01:23:57,613
Speaker 2: taken by Kiwis for over fifty years. Only available from

1216
01:23:57,613 --> 01:24:01,493
Speaker 2: your pharmacist. Always read the label and users directed, and

1217
01:24:01,533 --> 01:24:06,013
Speaker 2: see your doctor if systems persist. Farmer Broker, Auckland Layton

1218
01:24:06,093 --> 01:24:11,253
Speaker 2: Smith Missus producer podcast number two hundred and eighty two,

1219
01:24:11,333 --> 01:24:14,253
Speaker 2: and the mail room. How are you later, I'm very well,

1220
01:24:14,293 --> 01:24:14,653
Speaker 2: thank you.

1221
01:24:15,053 --> 01:24:17,773
Speaker 7: And amongst all this mess this morning, Actually I was

1222
01:24:17,813 --> 01:24:19,853
Speaker 7: just reading about a book. I think it was a

1223
01:24:19,933 --> 01:24:24,453
Speaker 7: Japanese the ancient Japanese art of decluttering. Well, that book

1224
01:24:24,493 --> 01:24:27,213
Speaker 7: would never be attached to your library, would it.

1225
01:24:27,373 --> 01:24:28,773
Speaker 2: I wouldn't, not at anywhere near it.

1226
01:24:28,893 --> 01:24:31,133
Speaker 7: I'm going to be doing some decluttering this morning.

1227
01:24:31,173 --> 01:24:32,693
Speaker 2: Actually it may be contagious.

1228
01:24:32,733 --> 01:24:34,493
Speaker 7: Not better keep your door shut.

1229
01:24:36,213 --> 01:24:39,213
Speaker 2: Anyway, It's there for a purpose, so I can't find

1230
01:24:39,253 --> 01:24:43,893
Speaker 2: it now. Steve writes thoroughly enjoyed listening to Nick Kata,

1231
01:24:44,133 --> 01:24:46,933
Speaker 2: especially as at the time we were sitting on my

1232
01:24:47,573 --> 01:24:50,333
Speaker 2: son and daughter in law's deck overlooking the beach at

1233
01:24:50,453 --> 01:24:53,813
Speaker 2: d Y on the Northern Beaches of Sydney. Every time

1234
01:24:53,853 --> 01:24:56,253
Speaker 2: I put my phone on there was an advert for

1235
01:24:56,373 --> 01:24:59,413
Speaker 2: one of the one or other of the parties in

1236
01:24:59,453 --> 01:25:04,053
Speaker 2: the Australian election. But as Nick suggested, it seemed to

1237
01:25:04,133 --> 01:25:07,373
Speaker 2: me that areas like that are consumed by their own

1238
01:25:07,373 --> 01:25:11,053
Speaker 2: elitism and that it's only the Teals, the Greens or

1239
01:25:11,133 --> 01:25:15,253
Speaker 2: labor who really figure in the locals consciousness. What about

1240
01:25:15,293 --> 01:25:18,253
Speaker 2: the diggers, the people who do the real work in Australia.

1241
01:25:18,973 --> 01:25:22,053
Speaker 2: I don't know, but I doubt the existing Liberal party

1242
01:25:22,173 --> 01:25:26,013
Speaker 2: really represents them either. And if you're interested, I've attached

1243
01:25:26,013 --> 01:25:29,373
Speaker 2: my submission to Phase two of the Royal Commission of

1244
01:25:29,453 --> 01:25:33,093
Speaker 2: Inquiry into the New Zealand COVID response which I sent

1245
01:25:33,173 --> 01:25:37,813
Speaker 2: in today ANZAC Day, in that I wanted to stress

1246
01:25:37,853 --> 01:25:41,933
Speaker 2: that the total inversion of medical ethics and morality propagated

1247
01:25:41,973 --> 01:25:45,413
Speaker 2: at the time was akin to the legal profession deciding

1248
01:25:45,573 --> 01:25:49,933
Speaker 2: en mass to discount everything to do with the Magna Carta,

1249
01:25:50,373 --> 01:25:53,493
Speaker 2: or the engineers discounting everything to do with the euclid's

1250
01:25:53,613 --> 01:25:57,053
Speaker 2: systems of measurements. Well, they've done well. I won't go

1251
01:25:57,133 --> 01:26:02,053
Speaker 2: out of the engineers. It was that insane. Where would

1252
01:26:02,093 --> 01:26:05,533
Speaker 2: the law be without Magna Carta or engineers without EUCLID.

1253
01:26:06,333 --> 01:26:11,613
Speaker 2: Everything that doctors and has stood for was intentionally and

1254
01:26:11,693 --> 01:26:17,693
Speaker 2: deliberately sabotaged for some nefarious and I personally believe evil purpose.

1255
01:26:18,213 --> 01:26:22,453
Speaker 2: I concluded my submission with those two words never again.

1256
01:26:23,253 --> 01:26:26,213
Speaker 2: Just my thoughts for the day, Keep well both of you,

1257
01:26:26,253 --> 01:26:29,693
Speaker 2: and best wishes. Look, this submission that he made missus

1258
01:26:29,693 --> 01:26:32,973
Speaker 2: Producer is so good. I'm going to quote a little

1259
01:26:32,973 --> 01:26:34,893
Speaker 2: bit of it at the back end of this.

1260
01:26:35,293 --> 01:26:38,653
Speaker 7: Good lighton jin says Kurt Schlickter hit the nail on

1261
01:26:38,693 --> 01:26:41,453
Speaker 7: the head regarding the key problem with America when he

1262
01:26:41,613 --> 01:26:45,013
Speaker 7: said that America forgot what made America great. It didn't

1263
01:26:45,053 --> 01:26:48,133
Speaker 7: matter where you came from, but when you came to America,

1264
01:26:48,253 --> 01:26:52,213
Speaker 7: you became an American. You're American first. This was common

1265
01:26:52,253 --> 01:26:54,973
Speaker 7: sense until America lost her common sense for a number

1266
01:26:55,013 --> 01:26:58,173
Speaker 7: of decades. Kurt pointed out that one of the circuit

1267
01:26:58,213 --> 01:27:01,813
Speaker 7: breakers to this American amnesia was nine to eleven when

1268
01:27:01,973 --> 01:27:05,773
Speaker 7: it quote knocked America out of its complacency. But it

1269
01:27:05,813 --> 01:27:08,893
Speaker 7: appeared that America needed an even bigger jolt of sense

1270
01:27:08,933 --> 01:27:13,173
Speaker 7: to really awaken her. I watched a recent Tucker Carlson

1271
01:27:13,213 --> 01:27:16,333
Speaker 7: interview with your brother in law George Friedman, who pointed

1272
01:27:16,333 --> 01:27:19,933
Speaker 7: to a second circuit breaker with immense cultural impact to

1273
01:27:20,013 --> 01:27:24,053
Speaker 7: America and the rest of the world. When Tucker Carlson said,

1274
01:27:24,733 --> 01:27:27,253
Speaker 7: it feels like there's got to be some hard pivot

1275
01:27:27,373 --> 01:27:32,133
Speaker 7: or something, you know, there's some disaster that resets people's expectations.

1276
01:27:32,813 --> 01:27:37,053
Speaker 7: George instantly replied, it's called Donald Trump. What I'm saying

1277
01:27:37,133 --> 01:27:40,293
Speaker 7: is whether he planned it or just is it. He's

1278
01:27:40,413 --> 01:27:42,733
Speaker 7: the man of the moment. He's the wrecking ball that

1279
01:27:42,853 --> 01:27:45,853
Speaker 7: Lincoln was and the wrecking ball that Roosevelt was and

1280
01:27:46,053 --> 01:27:51,013
Speaker 7: Jackson was. And he's shifting the country by emphasizing two things.

1281
01:27:51,453 --> 01:27:55,373
Speaker 7: One culture wars are untenable, and secondly, you can't keep

1282
01:27:55,413 --> 01:27:59,813
Speaker 7: inventing classes. Equal opportunity is not equal outcome. That was

1283
01:27:59,813 --> 01:28:05,413
Speaker 7: from George. Then George made this brilliant observation. Experts are important,

1284
01:28:05,413 --> 01:28:09,933
Speaker 7: but they need someone with common sense above to tame them. Well,

1285
01:28:10,013 --> 01:28:12,853
Speaker 7: Americas voted for the man of common sense, Donald Trump,

1286
01:28:12,933 --> 01:28:15,493
Speaker 7: And if this was an election year in New Zealand,

1287
01:28:15,773 --> 01:28:17,973
Speaker 7: I think that for the very first time, I'm ready

1288
01:28:18,013 --> 01:28:20,733
Speaker 7: to vote for Winston Peters because like him or not,

1289
01:28:20,973 --> 01:28:23,893
Speaker 7: he has been the man of common sense for literally

1290
01:28:24,093 --> 01:28:28,613
Speaker 7: all his political life. Winston for Prime Minister? Maybe?

1291
01:28:28,813 --> 01:28:29,053
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1292
01:28:29,293 --> 01:28:33,693
Speaker 2: I included that last little sentence in the discussion with

1293
01:28:34,213 --> 01:28:37,853
Speaker 2: Ramesh because I thought it was appropriate. Now this is

1294
01:28:38,693 --> 01:28:44,333
Speaker 2: in response to my request for some comments on what

1295
01:28:44,453 --> 01:28:47,813
Speaker 2: I read the Pope's message to his bishops in America

1296
01:28:48,413 --> 01:28:51,373
Speaker 2: just a few days before he died, and I suggested

1297
01:28:51,453 --> 01:28:55,453
Speaker 2: the engine I'd be interested in hearing opinions. This was

1298
01:28:55,533 --> 01:28:59,453
Speaker 2: the best one. What a pile of woke Marxist claptrap.

1299
01:28:59,773 --> 01:29:02,813
Speaker 2: That letter from the Pope was that won't be pulling

1300
01:29:03,093 --> 01:29:06,493
Speaker 2: lapsed Catholics like me back to the church from somebody

1301
01:29:06,533 --> 01:29:09,893
Speaker 2: who lives with armed guards behind walls in a gilded throne,

1302
01:29:10,213 --> 01:29:14,053
Speaker 2: on a gilded throne. What a nerve. Maybe he could

1303
01:29:14,093 --> 01:29:17,813
Speaker 2: have told jd Vance Vatican City would offer asylum to

1304
01:29:17,853 --> 01:29:21,893
Speaker 2: five thousand murderous thugs from MS thirteen. Where is this

1305
01:29:21,973 --> 01:29:26,093
Speaker 2: call to illegal migrants into Europe to respect the Christian

1306
01:29:26,173 --> 01:29:29,733
Speaker 2: homelands and the people who were giving them shelter, food, clothing,

1307
01:29:29,813 --> 01:29:33,813
Speaker 2: medical care and pocket money instead of rape, murder and

1308
01:29:33,933 --> 01:29:38,453
Speaker 2: knife crime at all time highs, car attacks and church burnings.

1309
01:29:38,773 --> 01:29:42,213
Speaker 2: He could have shown some actual leadership. Instead, he exposes

1310
01:29:42,293 --> 01:29:47,573
Speaker 2: himself as another lefty political creature with TDS. The Holy

1311
01:29:47,733 --> 01:29:53,413
Speaker 2: See desperately needs strong moral leadership. I wonder if they'd

1312
01:29:53,413 --> 01:29:58,093
Speaker 2: consider electing an actual and actual Catholic next time round.

1313
01:29:58,733 --> 01:30:01,093
Speaker 2: Paul I asked for it, I got it.

1314
01:30:01,133 --> 01:30:04,853
Speaker 7: Thank you, Layton David says, as someone who has had

1315
01:30:04,893 --> 01:30:08,053
Speaker 7: to abide by strict immigration laws during the last nine

1316
01:30:08,173 --> 01:30:11,493
Speaker 7: years living in Thailand, I don't have any sympathy for

1317
01:30:11,573 --> 01:30:14,333
Speaker 7: aliens who illegally entered the United States and are now

1318
01:30:14,373 --> 01:30:18,253
Speaker 7: being confronted with the prospect of deportation. Of course, the

1319
01:30:18,293 --> 01:30:22,693
Speaker 7: bottom feeding lawyers of the ACLU and corrupt activist judges

1320
01:30:22,693 --> 01:30:25,493
Speaker 7: are doing their utmost to keep George Soris and his

1321
01:30:25,653 --> 01:30:31,653
Speaker 7: son's globalist agenda alive by blocking deportations. Maybe President Trump

1322
01:30:31,693 --> 01:30:36,133
Speaker 7: should change tax and consider relocating illegal alien gang members

1323
01:30:36,173 --> 01:30:40,253
Speaker 7: to a purpose built prison camp in Alaska, rather than

1324
01:30:40,253 --> 01:30:44,173
Speaker 7: fighting for deportation orders through the crooked court system. Give

1325
01:30:44,293 --> 01:30:48,213
Speaker 7: all the illegal aliens the choice of either voluntarily removing

1326
01:30:48,253 --> 01:30:51,093
Speaker 7: themselves from the US or end up on a government

1327
01:30:51,173 --> 01:30:54,853
Speaker 7: sponsored one way trip to the backwards of Alaska. If

1328
01:30:54,853 --> 01:30:57,973
Speaker 7: that approach proved to be successful, maybe the UK and

1329
01:30:58,173 --> 01:31:01,453
Speaker 7: EU could be inspired to follow suit with similar schemes

1330
01:31:01,453 --> 01:31:04,773
Speaker 7: to thwart the globalists and their resistance through the court

1331
01:31:04,853 --> 01:31:09,533
Speaker 7: system to deportations of illegal aliens. Other than pampering illegal

1332
01:31:09,573 --> 01:31:13,853
Speaker 7: aliens by housing them enforced our hotels at taxpayer's expense,

1333
01:31:14,493 --> 01:31:17,813
Speaker 7: the UK government should offer them the same deal and

1334
01:31:17,973 --> 01:31:22,013
Speaker 7: colonization and grievances. Everything about the wars was full of

1335
01:31:22,053 --> 01:31:24,893
Speaker 7: Mari language, and TV News had the presenter ran on

1336
01:31:25,053 --> 01:31:29,493
Speaker 7: for ages. In her appeasing Mari intro. The day indicated

1337
01:31:29,493 --> 01:31:32,213
Speaker 7: that maybe our soldiers weren't united but forought and support

1338
01:31:32,253 --> 01:31:36,053
Speaker 7: of Mary, who it appears, dominated our services. When will

1339
01:31:36,093 --> 01:31:38,893
Speaker 7: this end? As the country is being more divided every day,

1340
01:31:39,053 --> 01:31:42,133
Speaker 7: the media are playing their divisive best. I'm sick and

1341
01:31:42,293 --> 01:31:45,413
Speaker 7: tired of this forced narrative where everything must be named

1342
01:31:45,453 --> 01:31:48,933
Speaker 7: in Maray and everything it's Mari or it's worthless. Time

1343
01:31:49,013 --> 01:31:51,613
Speaker 7: to end this utter nonsense. That's from Steve.

1344
01:31:51,853 --> 01:31:57,893
Speaker 2: Steve, appreciate it so very good male, and keep it up, folks.

1345
01:31:59,293 --> 01:32:01,933
Speaker 2: And now you may wish to depart if you thank

1346
01:32:01,973 --> 01:32:03,733
Speaker 2: you later, I say goodbye because I know you've got

1347
01:32:03,733 --> 01:32:06,173
Speaker 2: things to that. We've always got things to do. Thanks Layton,

1348
01:32:06,693 --> 01:32:07,493
Speaker 2: see you next week.

1349
01:32:07,933 --> 01:32:22,213
Speaker 3: Yes now.

1350
01:32:22,213 --> 01:32:24,493
Speaker 2: The submission to Part two of the New Zealand Government

1351
01:32:24,613 --> 01:32:27,493
Speaker 2: Royal Commission of Inquiry into the New Zealand COVID response

1352
01:32:28,013 --> 01:32:33,973
Speaker 2: from Steve. It's one two three three pages, close print,

1353
01:32:34,693 --> 01:32:37,693
Speaker 2: but I'm going to be picky. In April of twenty nineteen,

1354
01:32:38,333 --> 01:32:41,373
Speaker 2: I retired from medical practice. I've been a GP in

1355
01:32:41,413 --> 01:32:45,173
Speaker 2: New Zealand since nineteen seventy eight. In December of that year,

1356
01:32:45,213 --> 01:32:48,413
Speaker 2: the first rumors of a coronavirus appearing in China began

1357
01:32:48,493 --> 01:32:51,493
Speaker 2: to permeate the New Zealand media. In the weeks, months,

1358
01:32:51,493 --> 01:32:56,373
Speaker 2: and years that followed, the resultant inversion of and absolute

1359
01:32:56,493 --> 01:33:00,453
Speaker 2: perversion of the ethical and moral framework of medicine and

1360
01:33:00,533 --> 01:33:05,253
Speaker 2: healthcare could never have been imagined by anyone of sound

1361
01:33:05,293 --> 01:33:09,613
Speaker 2: mind or anyone who had a modicum of wisdom until

1362
01:33:09,653 --> 01:33:14,573
Speaker 2: it happened. To put this in perspective, the retreat from

1363
01:33:14,613 --> 01:33:18,733
Speaker 2: reality which medical practice and healthcare adopted was no less

1364
01:33:18,733 --> 01:33:22,293
Speaker 2: extreme than that of the legal profession deciding that the

1365
01:33:22,333 --> 01:33:27,653
Speaker 2: Magna Carta was irrelevant, or the engineering profession deciding that

1366
01:33:27,733 --> 01:33:33,373
Speaker 2: euclid's system of measurement and its derivatives were irrelevant. Medicine

1367
01:33:33,413 --> 01:33:35,133
Speaker 2: turned its back on more than two and a half

1368
01:33:35,173 --> 01:33:40,053
Speaker 2: thousand years of patient centered compassion and everything, I mean

1369
01:33:40,253 --> 01:33:46,133
Speaker 2: everything that has been the basis of medical practice was upended. Now,

1370
01:33:46,173 --> 01:33:49,933
Speaker 2: coming from a medical person, from a doctor of some

1371
01:33:50,333 --> 01:33:55,053
Speaker 2: considerable experience, you have to say that puts the boot in.

1372
01:33:56,053 --> 01:33:58,773
Speaker 2: Then it's divided. His submission is divided up into the

1373
01:33:58,813 --> 01:34:02,733
Speaker 2: New Zealand response. Give you an example, what was the

1374
01:34:02,773 --> 01:34:05,733
Speaker 2: New Zealand response to COVID? In short, everything was wrong

1375
01:34:06,293 --> 01:34:10,813
Speaker 2: for example, and then runs through who eleven points before

1376
01:34:10,813 --> 01:34:15,293
Speaker 2: carrying on first couple just for interest, quarantining healthy people

1377
01:34:15,373 --> 01:34:19,413
Speaker 2: was wrong. Number two Using the PCR test as a

1378
01:34:19,493 --> 01:34:25,253
Speaker 2: diagnostic tool was scientifically and ethically wrong. Number three quoted

1379
01:34:25,333 --> 01:34:31,613
Speaker 2: case fatality rates including x the who was wrong. They

1380
01:34:31,653 --> 01:34:37,213
Speaker 2: were intentionally malicious anyway. The next it goes on quite

1381
01:34:37,213 --> 01:34:40,533
Speaker 2: a way. Vaccines is covered. Then we get to flawed science.

1382
01:34:41,253 --> 01:34:44,373
Speaker 2: I believe it's important for non medical people to understand,

1383
01:34:44,493 --> 01:34:48,933
Speaker 2: that's most of us, that the entire premise of mRNA

1384
01:34:49,013 --> 01:34:55,293
Speaker 2: injections is fraught. In simple terms, mRNA is a protein which,

1385
01:34:55,333 --> 01:34:59,133
Speaker 2: when injected into the body, will immediately be recognized by

1386
01:34:59,173 --> 01:35:03,773
Speaker 2: that body's immune system as being foreign, and over millions

1387
01:35:03,773 --> 01:35:07,853
Speaker 2: of years, immune systems have developed elegant and sophisticated methods

1388
01:35:07,893 --> 01:35:12,773
Speaker 2: to recog dies and promptly destroy such foreign proteins. Part,

1389
01:35:13,093 --> 01:35:17,373
Speaker 2: but only part, of this sophistication is now understood by

1390
01:35:17,453 --> 01:35:22,333
Speaker 2: molecular biologists, and it was determined that by replacing one

1391
01:35:22,373 --> 01:35:26,813
Speaker 2: of the four bases in an mRNA product with a surrogate,

1392
01:35:27,333 --> 01:35:31,653
Speaker 2: it would be possible to disguise that foreign protein mRNA

1393
01:35:32,453 --> 01:35:36,213
Speaker 2: so that the immune system would not recognize it. In

1394
01:35:36,293 --> 01:35:39,773
Speaker 2: doing so, not only does that allow the foreign mRNA

1395
01:35:39,893 --> 01:35:43,973
Speaker 2: to enter the cell and execute its function of stimulating

1396
01:35:44,013 --> 01:35:48,133
Speaker 2: the productive the production of spike protein in the case

1397
01:35:48,373 --> 01:35:52,693
Speaker 2: of COVID vaccines that was in brackets, but because it

1398
01:35:52,813 --> 01:35:58,413
Speaker 2: bypasses and disables the immune surveillance system, it effectively makes

1399
01:35:58,453 --> 01:36:02,973
Speaker 2: the cell vulnerable to other infections and similarly impairs the

1400
01:36:02,973 --> 01:36:06,013
Speaker 2: body's response to the recognition of aber and cell behavior,

1401
01:36:06,573 --> 01:36:11,693
Speaker 2: such as in the development of cancer. As a medical scientist,

1402
01:36:11,773 --> 01:36:16,013
Speaker 2: to me, it is quite astonishing that the Nobel Prize

1403
01:36:16,053 --> 01:36:19,413
Speaker 2: in Medicine in twenty twenty three was awarded to Courico

1404
01:36:19,573 --> 01:36:24,333
Speaker 2: and Wisemann, the scientists who devised this method of disabling

1405
01:36:24,453 --> 01:36:28,093
Speaker 2: the natural immune system. I fear that we are only

1406
01:36:28,253 --> 01:36:31,933
Speaker 2: just at the beginning of the potentially devastating long term

1407
01:36:31,973 --> 01:36:37,453
Speaker 2: results of this research into the undermining of the immune system.

1408
01:36:38,533 --> 01:36:41,813
Speaker 2: Doesn't that leave you stunned? This is the only submission

1409
01:36:41,853 --> 01:36:44,573
Speaker 2: that they need to consider. They don't need another one.

1410
01:36:44,733 --> 01:36:47,533
Speaker 2: They just need one hundred thousand of these and then

1411
01:36:47,533 --> 01:36:50,053
Speaker 2: it gets to the future for New Zealand. In my view,

1412
01:36:50,213 --> 01:36:53,773
Speaker 2: it would be a not unreasonable stance for the Commission

1413
01:36:53,813 --> 01:36:58,413
Speaker 2: to propose that future pandemics be managed along the lines

1414
01:36:58,493 --> 01:37:02,053
Speaker 2: that pandemic preparedness had been carefully hammered out over the

1415
01:37:02,093 --> 01:37:05,573
Speaker 2: decades through the twentieth century. In other words, in a

1416
01:37:05,613 --> 01:37:09,853
Speaker 2: diametrically opposite manner in which which the New Zealand government

1417
01:37:10,053 --> 01:37:12,693
Speaker 2: and governments of most of the world, at the behest

1418
01:37:12,773 --> 01:37:18,093
Speaker 2: of the World Health Organization had dictated that COVID should

1419
01:37:18,093 --> 01:37:22,813
Speaker 2: be managed. In essence, the traditional response to pandemics, which

1420
01:37:22,853 --> 01:37:27,133
Speaker 2: had been decided and agreed to internationally over many many years,

1421
01:37:27,693 --> 01:37:32,853
Speaker 2: was as follows. Quarantine the sick, protect the vulnerable, allow

1422
01:37:32,933 --> 01:37:37,093
Speaker 2: the infection that's the virus to propagate through the healthy population,

1423
01:37:37,613 --> 01:37:41,853
Speaker 2: to allow the development of natural herd immunity. And number four,

1424
01:37:42,373 --> 01:37:47,373
Speaker 2: never vaccinate into an epidemic or pandemic, because by dint

1425
01:37:47,413 --> 01:37:50,973
Speaker 2: of evolution, that is bound to lead to the development

1426
01:37:50,973 --> 01:37:55,493
Speaker 2: of new variants of the pathogen against which your vaccine

1427
01:37:55,893 --> 01:38:00,493
Speaker 2: will likely be ineffective. In large part, this approach mirrors

1428
01:38:00,493 --> 01:38:05,133
Speaker 2: the proposal in twenty twenty in the Great Barrington Declaration,

1429
01:38:05,333 --> 01:38:10,693
Speaker 2: as proposed by doctor Sunetra Gupta of Oxford, j Baticharia

1430
01:38:11,013 --> 01:38:15,613
Speaker 2: of Stanford and Martin Koldorf of Harvard, all of which

1431
01:38:15,653 --> 01:38:19,573
Speaker 2: were summarily dismissed by the political and media establishment of

1432
01:38:19,613 --> 01:38:23,453
Speaker 2: the Western world. Then this politics and the reckoning at

1433
01:38:23,453 --> 01:38:26,013
Speaker 2: the end. But it's I mean, it should be read

1434
01:38:26,053 --> 01:38:30,573
Speaker 2: by everybody because it's a brilliant submission and it has authority,

1435
01:38:30,933 --> 01:38:35,133
Speaker 2: and I can only refer to the immediacy that Ramash

1436
01:38:35,133 --> 01:38:39,413
Speaker 2: the Ker responded to my question about the honors and

1437
01:38:39,533 --> 01:38:42,973
Speaker 2: awards that were handed out to people in this country

1438
01:38:43,493 --> 01:38:47,813
Speaker 2: who did not and do not deserve them. Thank you, Steve,

1439
01:38:48,333 --> 01:38:50,813
Speaker 2: and that is where we'll leave a podcast Umber two

1440
01:38:50,893 --> 01:38:54,813
Speaker 2: hundred and eighty two, and don't forget if you have thoughts,

1441
01:38:55,333 --> 01:38:59,253
Speaker 2: and don't forget if you have thoughts, write them Laton

1442
01:38:59,373 --> 01:39:02,853
Speaker 2: at newstalksb dot co dot nzed or Carolyn at newstalksb

1443
01:39:02,933 --> 01:39:06,053
Speaker 2: dot co dot NZ and I only have left to

1444
01:39:06,133 --> 01:39:10,453
Speaker 2: say thank you for listening as always, and we shall

1445
01:39:10,493 --> 01:39:10,933
Speaker 2: talk soon.

1446
01:39:18,693 --> 01:39:22,333
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talks at b Listen

1447
01:39:22,413 --> 01:39:25,373
Speaker 1: live on air or online, and keep our shows with

1448
01:39:25,493 --> 01:39:28,573
Speaker 1: you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio