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Speaker 1: So questions are of course being raised about possible intelligence failings.

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Speaker 1: As was just mentioned, the Sun was across the radar

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Speaker 1: of the Domestic Spy Agency AZO as early as October

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. They decided though he was not a threat.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Michael Zacculin is the senior Lecturer of Terrorism and

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Speaker 1: Radicalization at the Australian National University. Morning, Michael, Hi, how

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Speaker 1: are you very well? Thank you? Deciding he was not

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Speaker 1: a threat in retrospect was a massive misjudgment. How did

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Speaker 1: they get it so wrong?

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Speaker 2: Well, you have to take into account the fact that

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Speaker 2: at the time they're probably watching dozens and dozens of people,

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Speaker 2: and so basically you have to make decisions about who

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Speaker 2: you believe is the most relevant threat at that time,

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Speaker 2: and in this case, he didn't meet that criteria. And unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: this is something that we've seen time and time again

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Speaker 2: if you go back and look over the past sort

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Speaker 2: of a couple of years in other countries as well,

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Speaker 2: is that after these individuals are known or on the

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Speaker 2: periphery for police or in law enforcement LGIT agencies. But

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Speaker 2: the reality is is that they're having to watch so

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Speaker 2: many people and make decisions and other people are deemed

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Speaker 2: to be more of a threat.

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Speaker 1: Does this I mean, does this mean that he took

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Speaker 1: whatever it was that he was consuming that radicalized him offline,

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Speaker 1: so that whatever he was doing online wasn't triggering the

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Speaker 1: intelligence guys?

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Speaker 2: Oh, well, that depends. I mean. One of the things

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Speaker 2: that's very interesting about this case is the fact that

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Speaker 2: the father and son duo. The key is going to

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Speaker 2: be what happened sort of within that family. So was

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Speaker 2: this a case where the father also had extremist beliefs

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Speaker 2: and throughout this entire person's childhood they were sort of

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Speaker 2: you know, that they were exposed to these types of ideas.

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Speaker 2: It's less likely, but it's also possible that the son

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Speaker 2: sort of brought the father along. If you think about

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Speaker 2: the relationship between a father and son, just like sort

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Speaker 2: of any relationship, there there's a power dynamic there, and

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Speaker 2: we have seen that previously in other cases. You talk

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Speaker 2: about the Boston bombers, for example, who were brothers and

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Speaker 2: one was clearly radicalized and then brought the other brother along.

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Speaker 2: And in Canada there's the case of the Cotter family

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Speaker 2: in the two thousands, where essentially the father dragged along

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Speaker 2: all of his children into extremism, So it does happen,

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Speaker 2: but that's going to be one of the interesting dynamics

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Speaker 2: that they're going to have to sort out is what

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Speaker 2: was going on within that family.

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Speaker 1: There are claims that Iran may have been involved in

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Speaker 1: this in some way or but behind it, is that

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Speaker 1: likely to be nonsense or to be possible.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're going to you know, look under every stone

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Speaker 2: to make the determination. There have been suggestions here that

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Speaker 2: some of the earlier anti semitism attacks over the past

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Speaker 2: sort of a year or so involved relationship between members

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Speaker 2: of the IRG, the Revolutionary Guard in Iran, and organized

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Speaker 2: crime here. Again, the extent to what that is, you know,

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Speaker 2: how high up these people are in the food chain

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Speaker 2: are sort of either way formally or informally. That hasn't

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Speaker 2: become public yet. But again, you're going to turn over

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Speaker 2: sort of every single every single storm to make a

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Speaker 2: determination of what happened here.

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Speaker 1: All right, Hey, Michael, thank you, Doctor Michael Zaculan, Senior

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Speaker 1: Lecturer of Tourism and Radicalization at Australian National University. For

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Speaker 1: more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to news talks.

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