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Speaker 1: Yet again, yet again, the number of Kiwis leaving the

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Speaker 1: country has reached a record high. I don't know how

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Speaker 1: many records we can strike. In March we had the

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Speaker 1: previous record that was when seventy eight two hundred New

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Speaker 1: Zealand citizens left the country intending to stay away for

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Speaker 1: a year or more. And at that time we were like, Paul,

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Speaker 1: that's a high number. Well, eighty one thousand, two hundred

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Speaker 1: is the April figure that's been released today. Paul Spoonley

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Speaker 1: is a Massi University sociologist and with us now Hey.

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Speaker 2: Paul, yod Ay, Heather, Paul's scale of.

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Speaker 1: One to ten. How worried to you about this?

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Speaker 2: Nine?

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Speaker 1: Really?

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Speaker 2: Nine? Yes? Yes? Two reasons One is that I thought

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Speaker 2: with a new government it would ease off. But this

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Speaker 2: is actually seven months of the new government and the

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Speaker 2: figures keep going out, so how much more can they

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Speaker 2: go up? The second is that we see our Western

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Speaker 2: bright is going We have the highest skilled diaspers so

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Speaker 2: people who are living in another country of any country

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Speaker 2: in the OECD, and we do that because our graduates

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Speaker 2: leave and typically the person who's leaving his Zealand is

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Speaker 2: between twenty and thirty and a university graduate and.

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Speaker 1: What are the skills that we're losing.

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Speaker 2: We're losing all of those. Well, we're losing a lot

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Speaker 2: of professionals. I mean, if you look at the people

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Speaker 2: that are being recruited for the Australian Health Service out

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Speaker 2: of our graduate out of our medical schools, we've got

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Speaker 2: to be seriously concerned. But of course you and I

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Speaker 2: know what are the police doing, the Australian Police doing

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Speaker 2: in terms of recruiting here, So right across the board, teachers,

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Speaker 2: all our professionals are being recruited because they are actually

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Speaker 2: good graduates, and they're being recruited for other countries, particularly Australia.

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Speaker 1: What's it going to take for this number to come down?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think there's always push and pool factors, and

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Speaker 2: some of the pool factors, the fact that you can

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Speaker 2: get more money in Australia is always going to be

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Speaker 2: a pool factor, so that there's not a lot you

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Speaker 2: can do about that. Although some of our some of

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Speaker 2: our professions do need better recognition and do need better pay.

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Speaker 2: So how do we do that? I'm not entirely sure,

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Speaker 2: but we need to be internationally competitive. There are push

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Speaker 2: factors and that's what I'm a bit surprised at I

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Speaker 2: thought that, you know, with a new government things would

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Speaker 2: settle down, we wouldn't see this ongoing increase. So I'm

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Speaker 2: really surprised at that. I think we've got some incentives

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Speaker 2: which are really disincentives. We load up our graduates with

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Speaker 2: student dead and then we wonder why they go to

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Speaker 2: live in another country and don't come back. Well, of

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Speaker 2: course it's to avoid that debt. So can't we do something?

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Speaker 2: Couldn't we, for example, say, if Heather's disgraduated out of

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Speaker 2: medical school, couldn't she work in a rural New Zealand

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Speaker 2: for five years and then discount that debt that she's

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Speaker 2: accrued was training to be a Yeah, So I just

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Speaker 2: I think we're a bit dumb about some of us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, how many of these people? That's a note pool.

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Speaker 1: That's a really good idea, And I'm taking this on board.

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Speaker 1: I'm taking it. Not that I have any power over this,

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Speaker 1: but I'm absorbing what you're saying. How many of these

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Speaker 1: people who have left? Can we rely on coming back.

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Speaker 2: On quite a few, because if you look at those

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Speaker 2: numbers you mentioned the eighty one thousand, two hundred that

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Speaker 2: have left, but actually the net loss is fifty six thousand,

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Speaker 2: so we've got twenty five thousand who come back. And

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Speaker 2: they come back typically when they're at a particular career point.

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Speaker 2: So they quite often go overseas, get experience, and then

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Speaker 2: they come back here and come at it in at

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Speaker 2: the higher level in terms of the industry or the

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Speaker 2: the organization. They quite often come back when they're about

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Speaker 2: a start a family. So even though you know they

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Speaker 2: they're overseas and doing really well, once they start and

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Speaker 2: get that family, thinking about that family, then they tend

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Speaker 2: to come back to New Zealand. But I don't think

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Speaker 2: we should rely on that. I think we should work hard.

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Speaker 2: What's interesting to me is that we've got the second

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Speaker 2: largest diaspora people living in another country, second only to Ireland,

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Speaker 2: and we don't manage that diaspora. We don't work that diaspora.

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Speaker 2: We don't keep in puts with that diaspora and say, look,

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Speaker 2: even though you're not living in New Zealand at the moment,

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Speaker 2: or you might not ever live in New Zealand again,

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Speaker 2: can you do something to help us. It's called diaspora management.

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Speaker 2: We don't really do that.

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Speaker 1: Irish do Look, do the Irish do it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, they do. And the Filipinos do it really well.

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Speaker 2: They even have a government department which looks after what

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Speaker 2: they call the overseas Filipinos and they do a really

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Speaker 2: good job. So some countries do The Israelis do it.

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Speaker 2: You know, there are some countries that keep them in

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Speaker 2: touch and work that diaspora and say can you help us,

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Speaker 2: Can you provide us with funding, can you provide us

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Speaker 2: with ideas. Perhaps you know, some of your skilled clients

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Speaker 2: could come and work from us for a while. We

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Speaker 2: don't do much of that.

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Speaker 1: If there was something to go. I mean, the thing

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Speaker 1: is right, if they go overseas and they're looking for

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Speaker 1: greener pastures and they find on the other side, it's

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Speaker 1: not that flash, right, they will come back. So really,

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Speaker 1: if there was something like I'm thinking, like a war

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Speaker 1: in Europe or even in this part of the world,

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Speaker 1: they may return.

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Speaker 2: Mightn't they? Absolutely? So, as soon as we saw Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump elected, we got a tripling of people in the

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Speaker 2: USA who wanted to migrate to New Zealand. Yeah, that

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Speaker 2: was a tripling in forty eight hours. It was the

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Speaker 2: same with Boris Johnson. As soon as Boris Johnson got elected,

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Speaker 2: there was a big push factor. As soon as you

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Speaker 2: get something that's happening like the Ukraine War or Chernobyl,

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Speaker 2: then you get a significant increase in people who want

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Speaker 2: to come home. And New Zealand is safe. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we're a long way from any of these conflicts. We're

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Speaker 2: a country which when we talk to migrants, they come

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Speaker 2: here because the quality of the lifestyle is so good.

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Speaker 2: So we have a lot of things going for us.

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Speaker 2: You can see that in the numbers, by the way.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about the people leaving, but the numbers coming

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Speaker 2: into New Zealand are still very very high compared to

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Speaker 2: what you know. They've dropped about ten thousands and they

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Speaker 2: look us tracking down, but we're still attracting a lot

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Speaker 2: of migrants.

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Speaker 1: Paul, you are always fascinating. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: taking the time to talk to us. It's Professor Paul Spoonley,

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Speaker 1: Massy University sociologist. So just about the best thing we

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Speaker 1: could be hoping for at the moment is the reelection

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Speaker 1: of Donald Trump. I was gonna say and war, but

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Speaker 1: I don't want to inflict war on anybody just so

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Speaker 1: we get our people back. But I am prepared to

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Speaker 1: inflict Donald Trump on some people, so we get our

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Speaker 1: people back. So suddenly I'm going to start barracking for

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump.

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