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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news Talks B. Follow

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Speaker 1: this and our Wide Ranger podcast now on iHeartRadio. It's

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Speaker 1: time from all the Attitude, all the Opinion, all the information,

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Speaker 1: all the debates of the US now the Leyton Smith

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Speaker 1: Podcast powered by news talks it B.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Podcasts two hundred and ninety six. For August six,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, Lord Daniel of Kingsclear has backed a

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Speaker 2: great deal into his life. He was born September one,

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy one in Lima, Peru. A member of the

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Speaker 2: Conservative Party, a member of the European a member of

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Speaker 2: the European Parliament and in twenty twenty one, the House

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Speaker 2: of Lords. He's also known as Daniel Hannon and as

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Speaker 2: a British writer, journalist, and well plenty else. He guested

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Speaker 2: on podcasts to twenty three. At the end of As

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Speaker 2: It Happens twenty twenty three, I listened to a little

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Speaker 2: of the interview while sailing from a Palermo to Malta. Well,

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Speaker 2: actually we've just left Palermo, but I dug it out

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Speaker 2: and played a bit back just to get the.

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Speaker 3: Feel of it.

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Speaker 2: It was a good interview, including the decadent West sharing values.

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Speaker 2: What we've learned in the past few years, have you

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Speaker 2: really learned much? And I'm talking overall and his thoughts

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Speaker 2: and predictions regarding immigration into the UK. His reference to

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Speaker 2: the Mediterranean and illegal immigrants crossing it rang something of

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Speaker 2: a bell because that's exactly where we are at this

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Speaker 2: particular point of time. But maybe best of all, Daniel

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Speaker 2: Hannon is a brilliant speaker. Whether you've heard this conversation

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Speaker 2: or not, I trust that you'll get something out of it,

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Speaker 2: because there's plenty in it, So enjoy. Muckelan is a

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Speaker 2: natural oral vaccine in a tablet form called bacterial licate.

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Speaker 2: It'll boost your natural protection against bacterial infections in your

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Speaker 2: chest and throat. A three day course of seven Buckland

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Speaker 2: tablets will help your body build up to three months

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Speaker 2: of immunity against bugs which cause bacterial cold symptoms. So

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Speaker 2: who can take buccolan well, the whole family From two

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Speaker 2: years of age and upwards. A course of Bucckelan tablets

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Speaker 2: offers cost effective and safe protection from colds and chills.

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Speaker 2: Protection becomes effective a few days after you take buccolan

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Speaker 2: and lasts for up to three months following the three

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Speaker 2: day course, buccolin can be taken throughout the cold season,

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Speaker 2: over winter or all year round. And remember Buckelan is

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Speaker 2: not intended as an alternative to influenza vaccination, but may

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Speaker 2: be used along with the flu vaccination for added protection.

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Speaker 2: And keep in mind that millions of doses have been

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Speaker 2: taken by Kiwis for over fifty years. Only available from

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Speaker 2: your pharmacist. Always read the label and users directed, and

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Speaker 2: see you doctor if systems persist. Farmer broker auclumb Layton

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Speaker 2: Smith Daniel John Hannon was born on the Versus September

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy one. He's a British writer, a journalist to politician.

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Speaker 2: He's a lot more than that and more extensive than

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Speaker 2: each of those areas. He is the founding president of

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Speaker 2: the Initiative for Free Trade and was a Conservative Member

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Speaker 2: of the European Parliament for Southeast England from nineteen ninety

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Speaker 2: nine until the United Kingdom's exit from the EU in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty. I saw him on numerous occasions on television

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Speaker 2: for eclips taken from the European Parliament, and I was

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Speaker 2: in the audience of a commentary that he gave at

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Speaker 2: Auckland's University a number of years ago now and one

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Speaker 2: could not help but be impressed. So the Right Honorable

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Speaker 2: Lord Henden of Kingsclear, welcome to the Latensmith Podcast.

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Speaker 3: Glad to have you here. Thank you very much, Lay,

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Speaker 3: what a generous introduction we try.

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Speaker 2: I want to acquote you something to begin you said

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Speaker 2: prior to the EU referendum. You said, being a nation

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Speaker 2: means that we are not just a random set of

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Speaker 2: individuals born to a different random set of random individuals.

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Speaker 2: It imposes on us the duty to keep intact the

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Speaker 2: freedoms that we were lucky enough to inherit from our

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Speaker 2: parents and pass them on securely to the next generation.

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Speaker 2: How are we doing well? I think you guys are

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Speaker 2: doing pretty well, honestly. I mean I find myself saying

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Speaker 2: this every time I come to New Zealand, which I've

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Speaker 2: been doing every five years or so throughout my life.

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Speaker 2: I always find myself having to say, you guys don't

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Speaker 2: know how lucky you are.

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Speaker 3: The rest of the world would swap their problems for yours.

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Speaker 3: Not because everything is perfect here, but because you know,

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Speaker 3: taking everything together, it's going pretty well. But globally, I

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Speaker 3: have to say I am a lot more pessimistic than

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Speaker 3: when I said that, And I think what really altered

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Speaker 3: my outlook was not just the lockdowns, but the clamor

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Speaker 3: for harder and stricter lockdowns in what I had thought

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Speaker 3: were free, open and liberal societies.

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Speaker 2: So why was it then that we followed the Chinese?

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Speaker 3: Do you think? But we did it.

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Speaker 2: The Anglo sphere did it very willingly and seemed to

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Speaker 2: convince people that they were doing the right thing. When

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Speaker 2: I say people, I mean the bulk of people.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I mean, there's no getting away from it. It

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Speaker 3: was a public opinion driven process as much as it

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Speaker 3: was a science driven process. You know, we had contingency

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Speaker 3: plans in place, and in none of our countries did

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Speaker 3: they envisage the mass incarceration of a chunk of the population.

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Speaker 3: And yet in the panicky days that followed the lockdowns,

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Speaker 3: in first in China and then in Italy, it became

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Speaker 3: very difficult to make those arguments, and politicians were pushed

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Speaker 3: into doing things out of I suppose there was a

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Speaker 3: fear that the slightest error on the side of caution

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Speaker 3: would be career ending. But you could go as far

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Speaker 3: as you like in terms of excessive intervention, and no

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Speaker 3: one would hold it against you and by the way,

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Speaker 3: that was accurate. That's how it turned out. But in

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Speaker 3: the end it turned out to the incorrect way to

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Speaker 3: do it. Well, I don't see how else you can

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Speaker 3: read the figures, because at the time we were told, look,

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Speaker 3: wait until all the results are in. Countries measure this

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Speaker 3: in different ways. You know, did you die with COVID

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Speaker 3: or of COVID And some countries can't even measure that

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Speaker 3: because they didn't have the facilities. Now we do now

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Speaker 3: have all the figures in and the measure that is

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Speaker 3: consistent and that you can't fake, and that is the

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Speaker 3: same methodology the world over is excess deaths. You know,

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Speaker 3: how many people would you expect to die, how many

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Speaker 3: people died in the last three is versus how many

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Speaker 3: actually did. And that's something which the whole world measures

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Speaker 3: in the same way. And you know what do you find?

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Speaker 3: Obviously New Zealand does pretty well because you know it

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Speaker 3: had the advantage of geographical isolation, But the country that

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Speaker 3: comes at the top or close to the top, however

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Speaker 3: you measure it of those lists is Sweden, which didn't

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Speaker 3: have a lockdown, And at the time we were told

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Speaker 3: Sweden was inviting a kind of civilization or collapse by

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Speaker 3: being an outlier and refusing to go beyond banning a

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Speaker 3: few large meetings. Well, you know, I mean, if you look,

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Speaker 3: just compare New Zealand with Sweden. Right, New Zealand virtually

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Speaker 3: nobody died of COVID because of the geographical advantages. But

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Speaker 3: there was a lockdown, by the way, a lighter one

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Speaker 3: than in Britain or in most places, but there were

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Speaker 3: still a lockdown, and it was it was prolonged. Sweden,

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Speaker 3: no lockdown, but everyone got COVID right at the start.

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Speaker 3: Sweden seem to come out with a lower excess mortality

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Speaker 3: over all the New Zealand and I cannot see any

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Speaker 3: way of reading those figures other than to conclude that

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Speaker 3: the lockdowns killed more people than they saved.

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Speaker 2: I somehow think, well, that one of us has got

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Speaker 2: off track, and that would be me, because you're arguing

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Speaker 2: the way that I would have, and somewhere we've got

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Speaker 2: a crushed wire. When I said, when I said it

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Speaker 2: was wrong, then I was referring to the fact that

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Speaker 2: they the lockdowns were wrong. The imposition of virtually compulsive vaccinations,

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Speaker 2: or any words you wish to substitute for vaccinations was wrong,

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Speaker 2: was incorrect of the lack of freedom in not being

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Speaker 2: able to make decisions based on our own belief in

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Speaker 2: what was going on and what we thought and the

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Speaker 2: conclusions we came to, which is the essential aspect of

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Speaker 2: a democracy. Was totally the wrong thing to do.

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Speaker 3: Yes, but I'm afraid ninety percent of people were clamoring

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Speaker 3: for those freedoms to be taken away, which reflects has

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Speaker 3: made me really rethink how our societies work. I mean

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Speaker 3: that most Brits, and I suspect most key Wes would

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Speaker 3: have gladly had microschips, you know, injected into their arms

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Speaker 3: if it meant that the pubs were open. And it's

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Speaker 3: the idea that we were a freedom loving set of people,

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Speaker 3: that we were free countries in the phrase we used

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Speaker 3: to use, I think has taken quite a knock. But

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think, knowing what we now know, I

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Speaker 3: was a very lonely critic from day one of the lockdowns.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you could almost count on your fingers how

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Speaker 3: many of us there were back in March of twenty twenty.

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Speaker 3: A lot of people joined in April and May, but

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Speaker 3: there were you know, those and it's the most unpopular

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Speaker 3: position I've ever taken in a lifetime of punditry. In politics,

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Speaker 3: I've never had so much abuse because people were frightened, Oh,

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Speaker 3: you're killing my granny, you know, in order to put

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Speaker 3: the economy before lives or whatever it was. And yet

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Speaker 3: looking at the figures i've first of all, I just

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Speaker 3: I don't see how you can avoid the conclusion that

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Speaker 3: non pharmaceutical interventions were ineffective, that the lockdowns didn't work. Also,

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Speaker 3: touching on what you just just brought up, which is

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Speaker 3: the mass vaccinations, just think about what we now know

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Speaker 3: about the efficacy of vaccines. Okay, they were good at

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Speaker 3: keeping you out of hospital with COVID, they were very

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Speaker 3: good at keeping vulnerable people alive. It was a very

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Speaker 3: good thing that they were made available to people who

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Speaker 3: were at risk, and the countries that did that quick,

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Speaker 3: as you know, were saving lives. But we now know

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Speaker 3: that they were of almost no use, maybe none at all,

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Speaker 3: as a way of preventing transmission. So they were good

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Speaker 3: at keeping you out of hospital, they weren't really preventing

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Speaker 3: you from infecting your granny, and certainly not if you've

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Speaker 3: already had COVID and so just think about the consequences

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Speaker 3: of that. Think about the implications if vaccines were not

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Speaker 3: much use in transmission. Then the whole edifice that we

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Speaker 3: constructed of passports and travel restrictions and apps and all

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Speaker 3: the stuff that went further in New Zealand than in

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Speaker 3: a lot of places where you almost couldn't live a

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Speaker 3: full life as a citizen unless you had the approval.

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Speaker 3: All of that was based on a lie. Because we

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Speaker 3: now know that both Pfizer and the WHO knew at

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Speaker 3: the time that the vaccines, however good they were at

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Speaker 3: preventing illness, were not good at preventing transmission.

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Speaker 2: So we could go on and talk about this further,

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Speaker 2: but we'd be we'd be treading on familiar territory. Let

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Speaker 2: me then just ask you an associated question, what would

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Speaker 2: it take for another round of something to cower the

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Speaker 2: populations of our countries into much the same sort of approach, right?

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Speaker 3: And that is the question that I keep asking myself.

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Speaker 3: We are having, as you are, an appalling inquiry, sort

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Speaker 3: of inquest into what has happened. I say appalling because

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Speaker 3: it's obvious that they have begun with their conclusion and

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Speaker 3: that the you know, instead of asking the only question

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Speaker 3: that we want answered, which is what was the efficacy

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Speaker 3: of lockdowns? That they are assuming that lockdowns were a

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Speaker 3: good idea and focusing on why didn't we do it earlier? Right,

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Speaker 3: and so on the one level, you think, actually, what

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Speaker 3: I've wasted opportunity. We should find out whether all these

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Speaker 3: things other than the vaccines were of any use, because

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Speaker 3: what if there's another pandemic? And actually, though I was

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Speaker 3: thinking about this recently and I thought, you know what,

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Speaker 3: it doesn't really matter what they conclude, because what we

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Speaker 3: learned in twenty twenty is that whatever contingency plans you

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Speaker 3: have in place, they will be ripped up in a

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Speaker 3: panic as soon as there is pressure from public opinion

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Speaker 3: and shrieking broadcasters. So we had a contingency plan. We

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Speaker 3: had protocols that have been drawn up in cooler headed

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Speaker 3: times that did not envisage lockdowns, that provided for gradual

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Speaker 3: spread so that the NHS wouldn't be overwhelmed, that we

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Speaker 3: get to a period of collective immunity, and that did

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Speaker 3: not sustain, you know, people taking the most extreme scenarios

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Speaker 3: and going on TV and saying, why doesn't Boris Johnson

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Speaker 3: care about keeping my grammy alive. So I'm afraid whatever

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Speaker 3: our inquiries conclude, that is going to keep happening, because

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Speaker 3: what we've really learned is that in a crisis, the

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Speaker 3: government will snatch for power. The instinct of every regulator,

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Speaker 3: every civil servant, and every advisor will be to ban,

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Speaker 3: to regulate, to impose restrictions and prohibitions. And we've learned

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Speaker 3: also that the bulk of the population will be cheering

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Speaker 3: and demanding more. That's I'm afraid. So, you know, I

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Speaker 3: was like, you know what, I was a real you know,

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Speaker 3: Matt Ridley, you know, Johann Norberg, Steve Pinker type rational

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Speaker 3: optimist until twenty twenty. It's very difficult to be as

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Speaker 3: cheerful now, given what we've seen of how contingent and

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Speaker 3: how fragile liberalism is.

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Speaker 2: We would like to think that we would approach something

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Speaker 2: similar differently, but I think what you've what you've stated

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Speaker 2: is probably more accurate. The other aspect of people being

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Speaker 2: as compliant as they were even demanding, as you've put it,

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Speaker 2: was that the media sided with the government pretty much,

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Speaker 2: pretty much one hundred percent. The media would not print

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Speaker 2: anything that was that was alien to the to the

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Speaker 2: government instructions. And so there was a lack of alternative information.

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Speaker 2: Now I the I did one of the very first

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Speaker 2: interviews with an Australian doctor who had a vast experience

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Speaker 2: with hydrochlorocon. He was trying desperately to get the message

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Speaker 2: out and he got nowhere, and no Australian politicians would

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Speaker 2: talk to him, even though he had support in the

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Speaker 2: medical sphere. I wonder why that is. Why was it

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Speaker 2: that the media compplied. The investigative journalism that that you

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Speaker 2: and I would both appreciate greatly was non existent.

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Speaker 3: Well that again, that's a very good question. I think

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Speaker 3: people took the view that they had to go with

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Speaker 3: what the experts were telling them because they were not epidemiologists,

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Speaker 3: they were not virologists, and therefore listened to the official advice.

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Speaker 3: But so I was a skeptical journalist throughout. I have

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Speaker 3: a Telegraph column, and even before the lockdown, I was

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Speaker 3: writing pieces saying do not lockdown. There is no justification

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Speaker 3: for it. And as I say, it was a very

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Speaker 3: very unpopular position, and the Telegraph was a real outlier

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Speaker 3: in allowing pieces like that to be printed. No other

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Speaker 3: mainstream outlet was doing so in the UK. But I

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Speaker 3: learned something, so the first time in my journalistic career,

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Speaker 3: I really had to go to source and start reading

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Speaker 3: the primary sources, the actual medical studies. Normally, you know,

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Speaker 3: sorry if this is going to upset any listeners, and

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Speaker 3: I know that you can normally just read the new

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Speaker 3: scientists and summarize something for the second reason, but during

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Speaker 3: the pandemic, you couldn't do that. You really needed to

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Speaker 3: get on top of the detail. And what I found,

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Speaker 3: and it really shocked me, was that on almost every

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Speaker 3: aspect of the response to the pandemic, you could find

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Speaker 3: good faith, serious academic surveys and studies arguing diametrically opposite things,

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Speaker 3: not with any obvious agenda, not funded by big Farmer

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Speaker 3: or anything, but just honest disagreements. You know, did face

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Speaker 3: masks work, could children infect adults? What was the impact

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Speaker 3: of closing schools? Did it make any difference if you

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Speaker 3: to get vaccinated, if you'd already had natural immunity, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: You could find half a dozen things on each side

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Speaker 3: of those, all perfectly well argued. And that meant two things.

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Speaker 3: First of all, it meant that it was very difficult

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Speaker 3: for the advisors or the politicians to know what to do,

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Speaker 3: and they therefore tended to default to all let's err

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Speaker 3: on the side of caution, let's you know, let's not

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Speaker 3: take any risks, and all the incentives pushed them into

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Speaker 3: doing that, and it really was erring. But also it

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Speaker 3: meant that every critic could then find some perfectly good

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Speaker 3: study and cherry pick that and say, look, this shows

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Speaker 3: that it was all nonsense. And so I had some

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Speaker 3: sympathy with the decision makers as a result of that experience.

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Speaker 3: But I'm afraid, nonetheless, that when you put it all together,

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Speaker 3: you can't get away. Having said that I have some sympathy,

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Speaker 3: you can't get away from the fact that, certainly after

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Speaker 3: the first lockdown, I give them a pass on, look,

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Speaker 3: don't take any risk until we know what we're dealing with.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't my position at the time, but I don't

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Speaker 3: blame the people who disagreed with me about that. But

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Speaker 3: by the time that we knew that infections were already

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Speaker 3: falling before the lockdown had been imposed, then to repeat

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Speaker 3: it and repeat it a third time in many countries,

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Speaker 3: and a fourth time I think in some countries that

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Speaker 3: I think is almost unfigivable. Because that was unscientific. It

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Speaker 3: was driven by pure fear. And here's the thing. We've

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Speaker 3: got all these bad effects of long lockdown. We've got

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Speaker 3: the bad economic effects. We've got the debt levels we've

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Speaker 3: got in my country, no government worker is ever going

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Speaker 3: to come back to the office, and a big chunk

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Speaker 3: of the private sector of basically given up on on

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Speaker 3: work as well. We've got higher rates than ever before

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Speaker 3: of absenteeism from school. We've got mental health problems. We've

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Speaker 3: got all the undiagnosed, unscreened cancers and all of that.

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Speaker 3: We've got all these elements, if you like, of long lockdown.

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Speaker 3: But we've got one other one which is never mentioned,

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Speaker 3: which is the rise in conspiracy theories caused by governments

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Speaker 3: saying things that then turned out to be untrue. I

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Speaker 3: have seen again and again, perfectly clever, respectable people going

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Speaker 3: from asking correctly, asking quite justifiably, why were youngsters who

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Speaker 3: were at no risk forced to take a vaccine when

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Speaker 3: it was when they were not a threat from COVID,

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Speaker 3: asking that perfectly reasonable question, the thing or actually, maybe

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Speaker 3: all vaccines are a plot by big farmer. And while

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Speaker 3: we're on the subject, you know, why is the w

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Speaker 3: why is the why is the World Economic Forum trying

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Speaker 3: to you know, pursue us with microschips and why are

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Speaker 3: we believing what we're told about Ukraine and Song? All

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Speaker 3: of that is a consequence of the government saying things

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Speaker 3: that turned out to be untrue, and that I think

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Speaker 3: they knew was untrue at the time, but they were,

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Speaker 3: you know, they were in this in this state of

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Speaker 3: pull any lever, you never know, something might just work,

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Speaker 3: all right.

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Speaker 2: So what we what we're left with is a lack

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Speaker 2: of skepticism, and skepticism has been done more damaged by

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Speaker 2: what took place or otherwise, well.

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Speaker 3: I think we instead of instead of healthy skepticism. You know,

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Speaker 3: in a in a healthy democracy, you have debates and

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Speaker 3: you have people saying, we don't know this, but here

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Speaker 3: are the facts that suggests this, and you know what's

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Speaker 3: the balance of probability We didn't have that we had,

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Speaker 3: you know this this rather authoritarian insistence of the worl

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Speaker 3: only one truth that as justinda, I don't infamously say

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Speaker 3: that if we haven't said it, it's not true, which

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Speaker 3: is a scary thing to say. And then it turned

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Speaker 3: out that a lot of what they were saying wasn't true,

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Speaker 3: you know, they having assumed this monopoly on truth, a

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Speaker 3: lot of what they said turned out to be mistaken.

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Speaker 3: So instead of skepticism, we've pushed people into paranoia, into

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Speaker 3: you know, outright conspiracy. And I you know, I've seen

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Speaker 3: this happen to two particularly good friends of mine, one

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Speaker 3: a politician and one a writer, and journalists who you know,

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Speaker 3: have gone from asking good questions about mistakes that the

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Speaker 3: government's genuinely made into you know, chem trails and nine

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Speaker 3: to eleven conspiracies and moon landings and the works, because

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Speaker 3: they've given up on believing anything.

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Speaker 2: I reluctantly, but I have to ask you your whether

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Speaker 2: or not you travel the same road with regard to

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Speaker 2: and I'm talking about skepticism and in fact, with regard

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Speaker 2: to climate change, as in men, let's accept there is

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Speaker 2: climate change, but.

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Speaker 3: Men made climate change. So I mean, I hope we

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Speaker 3: can all accept that there is climate change. I've never

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Speaker 3: understood what the phrase climate change, denia or climate change

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Speaker 3: kept me. I've yet to meet anyone positing climate stasis.

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Speaker 3: Put it like that right now, I think that So

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Speaker 3: I think that I think the world at the moment

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Speaker 3: is heating, and I think that human activity is playing

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Speaker 3: a part in that, although not as big a part

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Speaker 3: as some of the catastrophists claim. But I think there's

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Speaker 3: a really important distinction to be drawn between the science

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Speaker 3: of meteorology and climatology and the political question of what

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Speaker 3: you do about it. So, you know, I don't have

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Speaker 3: any expertise in climate science. You know, I haven't done

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Speaker 3: any science since the age of about sixteen. But I

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Speaker 3: do know a little bit about the trade offs that

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Speaker 3: you have to make in politics, and that is if

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Speaker 3: you like my sphere as somebody who spent you know,

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Speaker 3: more than two decades as an elected representative. So if

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Speaker 3: you think that there is going to be X or y,

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Speaker 3: a bad consequence of a changing climate, leaving aside whether

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Speaker 3: or not it's man made or the extent of which

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Speaker 3: is man made. If you think, okay, there's going to

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Speaker 3: be rising sea levels, or there's going to be you know,

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Speaker 3: this area is going to dry out or whatever, you

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Speaker 3: then have a policy choice of Okay, what are the

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Speaker 3: range of options. How much do we spend on adaptation

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Speaker 3: or how much do we spend on trying to slow

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Speaker 3: it down a bit? Who pays? You know, if there

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Speaker 3: is a if there's good reason to believe that advances

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Speaker 3: in technology will mean that this is much cheaper if

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Speaker 3: we leave it for a bit, then is that a

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Speaker 3: reasonable thing to do? Now, those questions generally are not

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Speaker 3: being asked because the whole thing is being approached in

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Speaker 3: a spirit of kind of Tunberg millenarianism of you know,

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Speaker 3: if you don't agree with all of this, you want

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Speaker 3: the world to fry. I'm going to do something that's

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Speaker 3: very rarely done. But he deserves a shout out. The

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Speaker 3: first senior governing politician in Britain to challenge this and

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Speaker 3: to interrogate it is Rushie Sunac, who's said, hang on,

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Speaker 3: wait a minute, some of these figures seem a bit pessimistic.

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Speaker 3: You know, is it really so bad if we change

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Speaker 3: some of these time tables, some of these time scales on,

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Speaker 3: you know, phasing out car engines or whatever. The green

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Speaker 3: Blob exploded because nobody has ever questioned them before. But

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Speaker 3: actually his questions were completely reasonable, and they were not

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Speaker 3: about the science. They were about what is the most

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Speaker 3: effective way when you have limited resources of responding to it.

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Speaker 3: And that's one hundred percent of his job because, unlike them,

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Speaker 3: he's been elected to.

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Speaker 2: Something and for that he deserves eccolades. Let's talk about

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Speaker 2: some other matters. You mentioned the NHS, and I don't

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Speaker 2: want to spend too much time on it. I came

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Speaker 2: back from London earlier in the year with the critical

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Speaker 2: why the NHS has been betrayed by doctor Julia Grace Patterson,

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Speaker 2: and it bothered me a great deal because we were

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Speaker 2: going through then a discussion, an argument, a battle over

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Speaker 2: the health system in this country. Now, what's taken place

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Speaker 2: since virtually since you've arrived in the country, post the election,

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Speaker 2: but pre the announcement of the structure, is that we

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Speaker 2: are now pretty much i think, off the hook for

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Speaker 2: so many things that we were being dammed with that

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Speaker 2: I'm feeling the sort of positiveness that I haven't felt

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Speaker 2: for a long time that you I think indicated you

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Speaker 2: you were missing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, what did I misinterpret? No, I think

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Speaker 3: I think you're quite right. I mean our NHS is

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Speaker 3: I think probably the single biggest constraint on growth, both

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Speaker 3: directly and indirectly, both in the sense that it is

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Speaker 3: a massive version of resources into inefficient outcomes and in

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Speaker 3: the sense that it's quite bad at getting people to

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Speaker 3: be well again and Therefore, we have a lot of

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Speaker 3: people taking time off work when in a system where

430
00:25:21,653 --> 00:25:23,933
Speaker 3: they were short of waiting times and so on, you know,

431
00:25:25,533 --> 00:25:30,373
Speaker 3: we'd have much more productivity. We've tried. You know, for years,

432
00:25:30,413 --> 00:25:32,213
Speaker 3: it's been obvious that this was a bad system, but

433
00:25:32,373 --> 00:25:36,093
Speaker 3: people always took refuge in claiming that the real problem

434
00:25:36,133 --> 00:25:39,573
Speaker 3: was underfunding and if only more taxpayers money was given

435
00:25:39,613 --> 00:25:41,893
Speaker 3: to it, things would get better. Well, you can't argue

436
00:25:41,933 --> 00:25:47,493
Speaker 3: that anymore. La're massively, massively increased spending on healthcare, the

437
00:25:47,773 --> 00:25:53,133
Speaker 3: Tory coalition continued. Boris continued the NHS. We're now spending

438
00:25:53,453 --> 00:25:56,813
Speaker 3: more on healthcare than most comparable countries and were still

439
00:25:56,893 --> 00:25:59,133
Speaker 3: getting worse results. I mean, they're not the worst results

440
00:25:59,133 --> 00:26:00,773
Speaker 3: in the world, but they are. They are very poor

441
00:26:00,853 --> 00:26:05,413
Speaker 3: given what we're spending. So, you know, I think we've

442
00:26:05,893 --> 00:26:07,493
Speaker 3: One of the things that a labor government may be

443
00:26:07,533 --> 00:26:09,133
Speaker 3: able to do is to fix some of that. They

444
00:26:09,333 --> 00:26:11,813
Speaker 3: I think the labor just as it was Blair who

445
00:26:11,813 --> 00:26:15,213
Speaker 3: introduced such minimal reforms as we've had in healthcare, if

446
00:26:15,293 --> 00:26:17,813
Speaker 3: anyone can go further, it'll be starmer because a left

447
00:26:17,853 --> 00:26:20,413
Speaker 3: of center government can do this without being suspected of

448
00:26:20,453 --> 00:26:22,973
Speaker 3: trying to sort of murder the poor or whatever. The

449
00:26:23,093 --> 00:26:24,853
Speaker 3: other big constraint we have, by the way, is housing.

450
00:26:24,933 --> 00:26:26,893
Speaker 3: It's almost impossible to build things in the UK. I

451
00:26:26,933 --> 00:26:28,853
Speaker 3: find it amazing when I fly over New Zealand to

452
00:26:28,893 --> 00:26:30,493
Speaker 3: think there's a housing crisis here. I look at the

453
00:26:30,533 --> 00:26:33,333
Speaker 3: plane window and I think, how can there possibly be

454
00:26:33,733 --> 00:26:35,733
Speaker 3: a shortage of housing in a country that they do well.

455
00:26:36,013 --> 00:26:39,453
Speaker 3: We'll leave that to one side, but I I, you know,

456
00:26:39,533 --> 00:26:43,893
Speaker 3: I've we're talking on the day after the Coalition agreement

457
00:26:44,013 --> 00:26:46,533
Speaker 3: was reached. I'm really really bullish. As I read down it,

458
00:26:46,773 --> 00:26:52,693
Speaker 3: I'm thinking, wow, you know, uh, you know, although most

459
00:26:52,733 --> 00:26:54,733
Speaker 3: of my key we friends, being Tories, are quite sort

460
00:26:54,733 --> 00:26:56,973
Speaker 3: of grumpy about the state of affairs, they've really got

461
00:26:57,053 --> 00:26:59,373
Speaker 3: nothing to be grumpy about compared to the rest of us. It's,

462
00:26:59,933 --> 00:27:02,733
Speaker 3: you know, we've we've had We've had great problems to have.

463
00:27:02,933 --> 00:27:07,653
Speaker 2: We've had plenty of grumpiness, entitlement up and up until

464
00:27:07,733 --> 00:27:10,533
Speaker 2: now for the last three years minimum six years maximum.

465
00:27:11,053 --> 00:27:13,933
Speaker 2: But it's amazing how things can change. If I had

466
00:27:14,093 --> 00:27:17,013
Speaker 2: lunch with a very good friend of mine who spent

467
00:27:17,053 --> 00:27:18,853
Speaker 2: a long time living in London, not that that's got

468
00:27:18,893 --> 00:27:22,293
Speaker 2: anything to do with it yesterday and He brought along

469
00:27:22,453 --> 00:27:26,693
Speaker 2: the print out of the new appointments, and he said,

470
00:27:26,733 --> 00:27:31,373
Speaker 2: I brought this so you could see why I have

471
00:27:31,613 --> 00:27:34,733
Speaker 2: got a lot of faith. There's a lot of talent

472
00:27:35,013 --> 00:27:38,693
Speaker 2: on this list. And I looked down it and for

473
00:27:38,813 --> 00:27:41,173
Speaker 2: the because I hadn't I hadn't caught up with the detail,

474
00:27:41,253 --> 00:27:43,853
Speaker 2: I looked down that list and I thought, hell, he's right.

475
00:27:44,533 --> 00:27:48,053
Speaker 2: There is talent here. It's a matter of whether the

476
00:27:48,173 --> 00:27:54,733
Speaker 2: talent can combine itself with progress and carry out what

477
00:27:54,853 --> 00:27:58,013
Speaker 2: it intends to carry out, because with three parties anything

478
00:27:58,053 --> 00:28:01,493
Speaker 2: can go wrong. But in the meantime, I think, I

479
00:28:01,573 --> 00:28:05,413
Speaker 2: think there's a lot more people who are feeling much

480
00:28:05,493 --> 00:28:07,253
Speaker 2: more positive about where things might be.

481
00:28:08,373 --> 00:28:09,853
Speaker 3: I could just get rid of it. I found myself.

482
00:28:09,933 --> 00:28:12,973
Speaker 3: I found myself at dinner last night. I was sitting

483
00:28:13,093 --> 00:28:16,773
Speaker 3: between the new Attorney General and one of the two

484
00:28:17,453 --> 00:28:23,813
Speaker 3: new defpms, and I was incredibly cheered up. Not by

485
00:28:23,853 --> 00:28:25,813
Speaker 3: how solid they were, which I already knew, but just

486
00:28:25,893 --> 00:28:29,893
Speaker 3: by how enthusiastic they were to get going, and what

487
00:28:29,973 --> 00:28:32,493
Speaker 3: an understanding they had of what the institutional and bureaucratic

488
00:28:32,573 --> 00:28:35,333
Speaker 3: resistance was going to be and how they intended to

489
00:28:35,333 --> 00:28:37,613
Speaker 3: get around this. And I just think it's this is

490
00:28:37,693 --> 00:28:39,933
Speaker 3: a you know, this is just a great time to

491
00:28:39,973 --> 00:28:40,613
Speaker 3: be in New Zealand.

492
00:28:41,613 --> 00:28:44,773
Speaker 2: I'm going to make a transition from from housing shortages

493
00:28:45,893 --> 00:28:51,293
Speaker 2: to immigration because we we have or in the process

494
00:28:51,333 --> 00:28:53,573
Speaker 2: of absorbing something like one hundred and twenty thousand people

495
00:28:53,813 --> 00:28:54,853
Speaker 2: in the last twelve months.

496
00:28:56,053 --> 00:28:59,893
Speaker 3: You where you come from, have.

497
00:29:00,013 --> 00:29:06,973
Speaker 2: A flow that nobody can seem to stem, but nobody

498
00:29:07,013 --> 00:29:10,613
Speaker 2: can seem to stay. And there is a it appears

499
00:29:10,693 --> 00:29:14,373
Speaker 2: a massive shortage of housing. But why is it that

500
00:29:14,533 --> 00:29:19,533
Speaker 2: we have come in our countries to accepting the invasion

501
00:29:19,613 --> 00:29:22,613
Speaker 2: that we have. And I've always been in favor of immigration,

502
00:29:22,853 --> 00:29:25,133
Speaker 2: They've just got to be the right people. Right cultures

503
00:29:25,213 --> 00:29:28,293
Speaker 2: is especially important. But why is it that we have

504
00:29:28,453 --> 00:29:32,893
Speaker 2: been inundated and doesn't seem to be anything that can

505
00:29:32,973 --> 00:29:36,893
Speaker 2: be done about it, especially when it comes to Britain

506
00:29:37,053 --> 00:29:37,613
Speaker 2: and Europe.

507
00:29:39,013 --> 00:29:41,533
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I think there is a there are

508
00:29:41,653 --> 00:29:47,733
Speaker 3: substantial differences. So our countries are of comparable geographical size,

509
00:29:49,173 --> 00:29:54,653
Speaker 3: but you know, our population is seventy million, so there

510
00:29:54,733 --> 00:29:58,773
Speaker 3: are issues of space and crowding that happily New Zealand

511
00:29:59,133 --> 00:30:03,893
Speaker 3: doesn't face. The other difference is that Britain is constrained

512
00:30:04,053 --> 00:30:10,453
Speaker 3: by a bunch of treaties with you know, either European

513
00:30:10,533 --> 00:30:13,293
Speaker 3: or international treaties that make it very very difficult in

514
00:30:13,413 --> 00:30:18,013
Speaker 3: practice to prevent people arriving or to deport them, because

515
00:30:18,053 --> 00:30:20,493
Speaker 3: we have a judiciary that has just taking it upon

516
00:30:20,533 --> 00:30:24,613
Speaker 3: itself always and everywhere to oppose every repatriation order. New

517
00:30:24,693 --> 00:30:27,133
Speaker 3: Zealand is quite lucky, and that it's surrounded by sovereign waters,

518
00:30:27,213 --> 00:30:29,653
Speaker 3: so it can keep people out. It's not people if

519
00:30:29,693 --> 00:30:32,573
Speaker 3: you like crossing here from somewhere else. Having said all

520
00:30:32,613 --> 00:30:34,693
Speaker 3: of that, you know, I actually think you guys have

521
00:30:34,813 --> 00:30:39,453
Speaker 3: done pretty well, not perfectly, and there are things that

522
00:30:39,573 --> 00:30:43,573
Speaker 3: I would have done differently. And I'm particularly puzzled by

523
00:30:43,893 --> 00:30:47,493
Speaker 3: the way in which you don't seem able to screen

524
00:30:48,333 --> 00:30:53,453
Speaker 3: migrants from authoritarian countries to see whether they are supporters

525
00:30:53,533 --> 00:30:56,253
Speaker 3: of the ideology of the country that you know. I mean,

526
00:30:57,373 --> 00:31:01,133
Speaker 3: I'm always thrown when I bump into people of Chinese

527
00:31:01,133 --> 00:31:03,533
Speaker 3: origin here who turn out to be enthusiastic supporters of

528
00:31:03,573 --> 00:31:06,013
Speaker 3: the Chinese Communist Party, for example. That's the kind of

529
00:31:06,173 --> 00:31:07,933
Speaker 3: you know, it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man

530
00:31:08,053 --> 00:31:11,973
Speaker 3: to to filter that. But I think I think immigration

531
00:31:12,133 --> 00:31:14,453
Speaker 3: generally here has been very good news you've taken people

532
00:31:14,453 --> 00:31:16,853
Speaker 3: who are ambitious, who are you know? I mean, it

533
00:31:16,933 --> 00:31:19,933
Speaker 3: takes a hell of a lot to trow That noise,

534
00:31:19,973 --> 00:31:23,853
Speaker 3: by the way, is some immigrant looking guys working very

535
00:31:23,933 --> 00:31:29,533
Speaker 3: hard unloading furniture out of the window. But think of

536
00:31:29,573 --> 00:31:32,533
Speaker 3: what it takes to leave everything behind and come to

537
00:31:33,013 --> 00:31:36,413
Speaker 3: a place, which, gorgeous as it is, is remote. You

538
00:31:36,493 --> 00:31:38,213
Speaker 3: know you're not going to be seeing your family very often.

539
00:31:38,573 --> 00:31:42,093
Speaker 3: The time zones are not great. You know, that's all

540
00:31:42,253 --> 00:31:48,893
Speaker 3: wonderful self selection to get ambitious, resourceful and optimistic people, and.

541
00:31:49,053 --> 00:31:53,133
Speaker 2: Yet there is a there is a problem that nobody,

542
00:31:53,493 --> 00:31:57,933
Speaker 2: nobody's really picked up on. And my raising of this

543
00:31:58,093 --> 00:32:00,213
Speaker 2: comes out of a conversation my wife had with a

544
00:32:00,973 --> 00:32:05,093
Speaker 2: with an Asian restaurant a couple of days ago, and

545
00:32:05,293 --> 00:32:08,693
Speaker 2: she went to pick up dinner and the owner and

546
00:32:08,813 --> 00:32:12,053
Speaker 2: she were having a chat and she asked how business was,

547
00:32:12,173 --> 00:32:14,733
Speaker 2: because he'd been through some tough times, etc. And he says, well,

548
00:32:14,773 --> 00:32:16,653
Speaker 2: it's much better than it was this time last year.

549
00:32:17,813 --> 00:32:18,493
Speaker 2: He's Chinese.

550
00:32:19,093 --> 00:32:21,333
Speaker 3: And she said, what about staff?

551
00:32:21,413 --> 00:32:23,533
Speaker 2: Because he had major problems and he wasn't opening on

552
00:32:23,653 --> 00:32:26,933
Speaker 2: some days like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday because there was no staff.

553
00:32:27,773 --> 00:32:30,973
Speaker 2: He said, well, still the staff problem. It might be better,

554
00:32:31,053 --> 00:32:34,213
Speaker 2: but it's still a problem because the government is letting

555
00:32:34,253 --> 00:32:37,813
Speaker 2: in people and they can't speak English and the pot

556
00:32:38,293 --> 00:32:41,853
Speaker 2: the point being that there is no time for integration

557
00:32:43,053 --> 00:32:47,053
Speaker 2: and assimilation at this point, which is something that takes

558
00:32:47,093 --> 00:32:49,293
Speaker 2: a period of time. You want people coming into the

559
00:32:49,293 --> 00:32:51,453
Speaker 2: country that can actually fill roles and do jobs.

560
00:32:52,093 --> 00:32:55,173
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well yeah, although I mean because you've until

561
00:32:55,253 --> 00:32:57,573
Speaker 3: now been pretty good at taking people from a wide

562
00:32:57,973 --> 00:33:00,853
Speaker 3: variety of sources and therefore jumbling up in a way

563
00:33:00,893 --> 00:33:04,013
Speaker 3: that militates against the formation of these big ethnic and

564
00:33:04,093 --> 00:33:07,893
Speaker 3: linguistic ghettos. That has been much more successfully done here

565
00:33:07,933 --> 00:33:09,693
Speaker 3: than in all most anywhere in Europe. I would say,

566
00:33:10,613 --> 00:33:13,253
Speaker 3: but okay, I'll match your restaurant story for one of mine.

567
00:33:13,293 --> 00:33:16,613
Speaker 3: So I had. I had lunch yesterday at a little

568
00:33:16,693 --> 00:33:21,213
Speaker 3: place in Takapuna owned by a Colombian guy who is

569
00:33:21,293 --> 00:33:26,653
Speaker 3: your model, your model immigrant, you know, family run place,

570
00:33:26,733 --> 00:33:29,933
Speaker 3: he works every hour. And I said, how do you

571
00:33:30,013 --> 00:33:33,453
Speaker 3: feel about the election? And he said, I am overjoyed,

572
00:33:34,693 --> 00:33:39,373
Speaker 3: partly because I think the nationals are on the side

573
00:33:39,413 --> 00:33:42,173
Speaker 3: of people like me who want to work and get ahead.

574
00:33:42,413 --> 00:33:45,253
Speaker 3: But mainly I thought sort said, I had my pay

575
00:33:45,373 --> 00:33:47,853
Speaker 3: with Colombian. So I had my parents here last year

576
00:33:47,933 --> 00:33:54,373
Speaker 3: their first visit, and they were robbed and their passports

577
00:33:54,653 --> 00:33:56,893
Speaker 3: was told and that's never happened in Colombia, and it

578
00:33:57,013 --> 00:33:59,213
Speaker 3: happened in New Zealand. So he said, I'm in favor

579
00:33:59,253 --> 00:34:00,813
Speaker 3: of any government that's going to crack down on that.

580
00:34:02,333 --> 00:34:06,293
Speaker 2: Well, I think, like most countries, Australia's one, Britain's one

581
00:34:07,093 --> 00:34:11,853
Speaker 2: crime as miracles Canada is another. I think I've covered

582
00:34:11,893 --> 00:34:16,253
Speaker 2: the roster that there has been a massive increase in

583
00:34:16,333 --> 00:34:20,853
Speaker 2: crime over the last few years, and in many places

584
00:34:21,293 --> 00:34:23,253
Speaker 2: the authorities don't want to do anything about them.

585
00:34:24,453 --> 00:34:27,453
Speaker 3: Well, I think the reason I mentioned my Columbian friend

586
00:34:27,733 --> 00:34:31,013
Speaker 3: is he was, without saying it, he was reminding us

587
00:34:31,013 --> 00:34:34,053
Speaker 3: of something, which is that immigrants aren't disproportionately victims of crimes,

588
00:34:34,653 --> 00:34:36,613
Speaker 3: you know, because it happened because they live in the

589
00:34:36,653 --> 00:34:38,533
Speaker 3: areas that are the most crime written and therefore quite

590
00:34:38,573 --> 00:34:44,373
Speaker 3: responsive to any political party that will do something about it.

591
00:34:44,573 --> 00:34:46,893
Speaker 3: And the other thing that is striking about a lot

592
00:34:46,893 --> 00:34:49,053
Speaker 3: of the countries you just mentioned is that we could

593
00:34:49,133 --> 00:34:53,573
Speaker 3: still go further in allowing qualified people to work without

594
00:34:55,253 --> 00:34:58,973
Speaker 3: needless constraints put in their path by kind of guilds

595
00:34:59,013 --> 00:35:02,373
Speaker 3: and gatekeepers, right, So it's not so much of an

596
00:35:02,493 --> 00:35:04,733
Speaker 3: issue here as it is in some places. But you

597
00:35:04,893 --> 00:35:08,533
Speaker 3: still have occasionally the phenomenon of the you know, the

598
00:35:10,173 --> 00:35:12,453
Speaker 3: heart surgeon working as a nuber driver because he's waiting

599
00:35:12,533 --> 00:35:14,573
Speaker 3: to be allowed to practice, and that's and that's not

600
00:35:14,693 --> 00:35:15,533
Speaker 3: in anybody's interest.

601
00:35:15,733 --> 00:35:17,453
Speaker 2: There is plenty of that, and it's gone on for

602
00:35:17,613 --> 00:35:22,373
Speaker 2: years and years. Economists and dentists are too that I'm

603
00:35:22,413 --> 00:35:25,693
Speaker 2: familiar with who ended up house cleaning and the other

604
00:35:25,893 --> 00:35:30,813
Speaker 2: other civilar tasks. One couple were both doctors. She she

605
00:35:31,053 --> 00:35:34,933
Speaker 2: went and spent the time doing the whatever you call it,

606
00:35:34,973 --> 00:35:37,933
Speaker 2: the catch up court course over a couple of years.

607
00:35:38,173 --> 00:35:40,213
Speaker 2: He was not going to do it. He was a

608
00:35:40,293 --> 00:35:42,493
Speaker 2: top top surgeon and he wasn't going to do it.

609
00:35:42,733 --> 00:35:46,053
Speaker 2: So he went and just did some ordinary laboring jobs.

610
00:35:46,813 --> 00:35:49,493
Speaker 2: It was really quite and there are straw So.

611
00:35:50,333 --> 00:35:53,013
Speaker 3: One of the politicians who I'm really excited about at

612
00:35:53,053 --> 00:35:55,933
Speaker 3: the moment, I think probably my favorite center right politician

613
00:35:57,573 --> 00:36:01,213
Speaker 3: in the world is the leader of the Canadian Tory Party, Everett,

614
00:36:01,213 --> 00:36:05,533
Speaker 3: and he he is picking up huge support from immigrant

615
00:36:05,533 --> 00:36:08,973
Speaker 3: and Canada has an ambitious immigration policy three hundred and

616
00:36:09,013 --> 00:36:13,333
Speaker 3: fifty thousand a year, and they are pretty good. I mean,

617
00:36:13,613 --> 00:36:15,253
Speaker 3: you get all the same complaints there that you get everywhere,

618
00:36:15,253 --> 00:36:17,653
Speaker 3: but actually they're pretty good at managing this. They're pretty

619
00:36:17,693 --> 00:36:21,093
Speaker 3: good at sorting people out, getting the ones who really

620
00:36:21,133 --> 00:36:22,653
Speaker 3: want to be there, who are going to be patriotic

621
00:36:22,693 --> 00:36:25,413
Speaker 3: and grateful and going to contribute, and they're pretty good

622
00:36:25,413 --> 00:36:30,253
Speaker 3: at at not having ethnic blocks taking over one part

623
00:36:30,333 --> 00:36:33,853
Speaker 3: of the country. But his stick with all of those is,

624
00:36:34,253 --> 00:36:36,613
Speaker 3: I am going to remove the gatekeepers. I'm going to

625
00:36:36,693 --> 00:36:39,213
Speaker 3: let you work from day one. And he's getting huge

626
00:36:39,293 --> 00:36:43,813
Speaker 3: support from those communities as well as because he's going

627
00:36:43,893 --> 00:36:48,093
Speaker 3: to make you know. He's going to try and constrain

628
00:36:48,853 --> 00:36:51,053
Speaker 3: the Central Bank so that it no longer acts as

629
00:36:51,053 --> 00:36:53,213
Speaker 3: an ATM for spencer of government and allows people to

630
00:36:53,213 --> 00:36:55,173
Speaker 3: get on the housing ladder, which again is a pretty

631
00:36:55,173 --> 00:36:59,733
Speaker 3: popular message with newcomers. With mentioned of Canada. Just a

632
00:36:59,813 --> 00:37:00,213
Speaker 3: while ago.

633
00:37:00,293 --> 00:37:03,413
Speaker 2: This morning, funnily enough, no more than an hour ago,

634
00:37:04,173 --> 00:37:09,733
Speaker 2: I came across a video that was made by a

635
00:37:10,773 --> 00:37:16,373
Speaker 2: Telegraph UK reporter who went to Canada. This was just

636
00:37:16,413 --> 00:37:19,773
Speaker 2: a few weeks ago, went to Canada and he went

637
00:37:19,853 --> 00:37:23,653
Speaker 2: to investigate why things were the way that they were

638
00:37:23,853 --> 00:37:28,173
Speaker 2: under Trudeau. Jordan Peterson made some opening comments about how

639
00:37:28,253 --> 00:37:31,013
Speaker 2: bad it is. He said, amongst other things, he said,

640
00:37:31,213 --> 00:37:34,613
Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever heard a true word come

641
00:37:34,653 --> 00:37:37,693
Speaker 2: out of Trudeau's mouth, And there were some other comments

642
00:37:37,693 --> 00:37:42,813
Speaker 2: along similar lines. Why is do you think Canada being

643
00:37:43,013 --> 00:37:47,893
Speaker 2: so tortured by this individual? Well, I don't think they

644
00:37:47,893 --> 00:37:48,773
Speaker 2: will be for much longer.

645
00:37:48,813 --> 00:37:51,493
Speaker 3: I think the last poll the Tories are like eighteen

646
00:37:51,573 --> 00:37:54,773
Speaker 3: points ahead or something, and I'm very, very confident that

647
00:37:54,933 --> 00:37:59,173
Speaker 3: Canadians will ditch him. But why did they re elect him? Yes, well,

648
00:37:59,173 --> 00:38:01,293
Speaker 3: I think they re elected him for the same reason

649
00:38:01,493 --> 00:38:04,733
Speaker 3: that your countryman re elected Jacinda, which is that if

650
00:38:04,853 --> 00:38:08,013
Speaker 3: you call an election at the height of the crisis,

651
00:38:08,413 --> 00:38:11,013
Speaker 3: at the height of the COVID crisis, when you are

652
00:38:11,173 --> 00:38:14,853
Speaker 3: on TV every day giving these press conferences and looking

653
00:38:14,933 --> 00:38:19,693
Speaker 3: authoritative and you know, looking as you're in command, it's

654
00:38:19,933 --> 00:38:23,773
Speaker 3: very hard to dislodge an incumbent. Once the bills come

655
00:38:23,853 --> 00:38:26,413
Speaker 3: in and the hangover starts very different picture, Which is

656
00:38:26,493 --> 00:38:29,653
Speaker 3: why I wouldn't be at all surprised if just Intrudeau

657
00:38:29,693 --> 00:38:32,373
Speaker 3: does a just Cinda and leaves rather than having his

658
00:38:32,453 --> 00:38:35,773
Speaker 3: ass kicked in the polls. Yes, well, the new opposition

659
00:38:35,933 --> 00:38:39,613
Speaker 3: leader is brilliant. We agree on that. I think, I

660
00:38:39,893 --> 00:38:43,133
Speaker 3: really do. I mean, I think he is. He's such

661
00:38:43,173 --> 00:38:48,173
Speaker 3: a great communicator, he's very much one of us, and

662
00:38:48,813 --> 00:38:51,493
Speaker 3: he's just I've known him for it, for it for

663
00:38:51,573 --> 00:38:55,093
Speaker 3: a while since he was a new MP. And I

664
00:38:55,173 --> 00:38:57,813
Speaker 3: can barely think of anyone who is more focused and

665
00:38:57,933 --> 00:39:01,213
Speaker 3: more energetic than he is. And he's just a terrific patriot.

666
00:39:01,253 --> 00:39:03,413
Speaker 3: I mean, he's in politics for all the right reasons,

667
00:39:03,733 --> 00:39:06,533
Speaker 3: driven by a terrific sense of service. He's surprised that

668
00:39:07,173 --> 00:39:12,173
Speaker 3: Geeth Will does God got where hed No? I think

669
00:39:12,213 --> 00:39:14,253
Speaker 3: this is this is going to happen in other places.

670
00:39:14,253 --> 00:39:15,653
Speaker 3: I think it's only a matter of time before it

671
00:39:15,693 --> 00:39:21,693
Speaker 3: happens in Germany. If you if respectable politicians can't get

672
00:39:21,733 --> 00:39:24,853
Speaker 3: on top of immigration, then politicians from outside the mainstream

673
00:39:24,893 --> 00:39:28,413
Speaker 3: will own that issue in a way. Actually, I think

674
00:39:29,093 --> 00:39:31,893
Speaker 3: it's got a lot to do with why why Trump

675
00:39:32,053 --> 00:39:36,613
Speaker 3: is so difficult to unsea by other Republicans. There is

676
00:39:36,773 --> 00:39:40,853
Speaker 3: a general feeling that no one is listening on this subject,

677
00:39:40,933 --> 00:39:44,413
Speaker 3: and it may be that in Europe, as in the UK,

678
00:39:44,613 --> 00:39:46,413
Speaker 3: there's just not much that can be done. You know

679
00:39:48,173 --> 00:39:54,493
Speaker 3: that the the the electorate would not countenance the kind

680
00:39:54,573 --> 00:39:59,213
Speaker 3: of measures necessary properly to control borders in countries like that,

681
00:39:59,493 --> 00:40:04,213
Speaker 3: and so hence you get you get these politicians who

682
00:40:05,693 --> 00:40:08,173
Speaker 3: get elected saying that there's a simple answer, but you

683
00:40:09,253 --> 00:40:11,533
Speaker 3: it's very very you know, at the height of the

684
00:40:12,653 --> 00:40:15,493
Speaker 3: height of the migrant crisis in the Mediterranean twenty fifteen,

685
00:40:16,733 --> 00:40:19,213
Speaker 3: I went and volunteered in the south of Italy where

686
00:40:19,253 --> 00:40:24,133
Speaker 3: they were all arriving in a hostel for underage migrants,

687
00:40:24,133 --> 00:40:27,973
Speaker 3: so unaccompanied kids who come mainly from West Africa. And

688
00:40:28,213 --> 00:40:33,453
Speaker 3: these were bright, ambitious, resourceful boys who were doing what

689
00:40:33,813 --> 00:40:36,613
Speaker 3: you or I would do in their situation. But they

690
00:40:36,653 --> 00:40:40,133
Speaker 3: were not refugees, not as we define that word legally, right,

691
00:40:40,173 --> 00:40:43,653
Speaker 3: so that they were fleeing from poverty and corruption, they

692
00:40:43,693 --> 00:40:48,413
Speaker 3: were not fleeing from persecution and impression. And what I

693
00:40:48,573 --> 00:40:51,573
Speaker 3: noticed is that even if they didn't have shoes when

694
00:40:51,613 --> 00:40:53,173
Speaker 3: they arrived, because we met quite a lot of the

695
00:40:53,213 --> 00:40:57,373
Speaker 3: boats as they were being landed, even if they didn't

696
00:40:57,413 --> 00:41:02,133
Speaker 3: have shoes, these kids had smartphones. And the smartphone was

697
00:41:02,173 --> 00:41:04,013
Speaker 3: the key to the whole thing. The smartphone is what

698
00:41:04,133 --> 00:41:06,013
Speaker 3: had allowed them to make the journey. I mean, it's

699
00:41:06,013 --> 00:41:07,973
Speaker 3: a hell of an odyssey to cross first the Sahara

700
00:41:08,693 --> 00:41:11,493
Speaker 3: and then the Mediterranean. But the phone is what allowed

701
00:41:11,533 --> 00:41:15,413
Speaker 3: them to transfer credit transfer information and make a journey

702
00:41:15,413 --> 00:41:18,493
Speaker 3: that their grandparents could not have contemplated. And this is

703
00:41:18,533 --> 00:41:21,533
Speaker 3: why I just think that this problem is or this

704
00:41:21,653 --> 00:41:25,253
Speaker 3: this this phenomenon is going to increase how whatever we

705
00:41:25,333 --> 00:41:29,093
Speaker 3: do about it the most, the easy fascile and false

706
00:41:29,173 --> 00:41:31,933
Speaker 3: thing to say is, oh, if we gave these countries

707
00:41:32,013 --> 00:41:35,893
Speaker 3: more aid or whatever, then we'd remove the need for

708
00:41:35,973 --> 00:41:38,413
Speaker 3: them to leave. Actually that's the opposite of the truth.

709
00:41:38,493 --> 00:41:41,773
Speaker 3: It is rising wealth and rising aspirations in those countries

710
00:41:41,933 --> 00:41:45,213
Speaker 3: that is driving this this mass movement, and I don't

711
00:41:45,213 --> 00:41:49,493
Speaker 3: see it ending anytime soon. Now. When you've got that

712
00:41:49,893 --> 00:41:54,373
Speaker 3: level of sort of of push and pull factor migration,

713
00:41:55,733 --> 00:42:00,573
Speaker 3: the steps required significantly to reduce it will be pretty unpalatable.

714
00:42:00,693 --> 00:42:02,533
Speaker 3: And I think that's that's a choice that Europe is

715
00:42:02,693 --> 00:42:07,493
Speaker 3: just shying away from. Let me just finally make some

716
00:42:08,093 --> 00:42:12,533
Speaker 3: quick suggestions of things. I'd like your briefest comment on

717
00:42:13,053 --> 00:42:16,573
Speaker 3: if you if you can the decadent West, is it

718
00:42:16,693 --> 00:42:20,693
Speaker 3: at the end of its dominance? Yes, I think so.

719
00:42:21,293 --> 00:42:25,013
Speaker 3: I think you might be familiar with the headline. Yeah,

720
00:42:25,333 --> 00:42:29,293
Speaker 3: I mean, I just I look at the lineup of

721
00:42:29,453 --> 00:42:32,013
Speaker 3: how countries were voting on the Russia Ukraine war. I

722
00:42:32,133 --> 00:42:34,693
Speaker 3: look at how they are lined up on the Israel

723
00:42:34,773 --> 00:42:37,493
Speaker 3: Garza thing, and I look at how they put the

724
00:42:37,533 --> 00:42:41,573
Speaker 3: two things together. Countries that were previously quite well disposed,

725
00:42:42,013 --> 00:42:44,613
Speaker 3: and who say, oh, just imagine how on wait a minute,

726
00:42:44,613 --> 00:42:47,173
Speaker 3: imagine if if if Russia was behaving how Israel has behaved.

727
00:42:47,173 --> 00:42:49,133
Speaker 3: They'll say things like, you know, imagine if if if

728
00:42:49,213 --> 00:42:52,653
Speaker 3: Putin ordered the Ukrainians out of half of Ukraine. Imagine

729
00:42:52,693 --> 00:42:56,053
Speaker 3: if Russia had bombed two Polish airports in the way

730
00:42:56,133 --> 00:42:59,093
Speaker 3: that Israel bomb too Syrian ones. You know, what would

731
00:42:59,133 --> 00:43:03,093
Speaker 3: you say if put In cut off the energy supplies? Well,

732
00:43:03,093 --> 00:43:04,653
Speaker 3: we know what you said. You called it a war crime,

733
00:43:04,693 --> 00:43:08,453
Speaker 3: and you know, so we've what we've learned in the

734
00:43:08,533 --> 00:43:11,213
Speaker 3: last few months is that a lot of countries that

735
00:43:11,293 --> 00:43:14,293
Speaker 3: we thought would be in our camp because they were democracies,

736
00:43:14,853 --> 00:43:16,653
Speaker 3: a lot of countries that we thought would be kind

737
00:43:16,693 --> 00:43:21,013
Speaker 3: of drawn to Ukraine and to Israel because they would

738
00:43:21,053 --> 00:43:27,493
Speaker 3: see them as democracies under attack from authoritarian rogue regimes,

739
00:43:28,413 --> 00:43:33,133
Speaker 3: actually were only in our camp transactionally contingently, because we

740
00:43:33,213 --> 00:43:35,293
Speaker 3: were the sort of the dominant power, and as soon

741
00:43:35,373 --> 00:43:38,093
Speaker 3: as they think that we are no longer the dominant power,

742
00:43:38,133 --> 00:43:40,933
Speaker 3: it turns out that they don't really share our values

743
00:43:41,013 --> 00:43:41,973
Speaker 3: in the way that we thought.

744
00:43:43,773 --> 00:43:46,853
Speaker 2: History hating Britain. Is it the WORKUS country on the West?

745
00:43:48,293 --> 00:43:49,893
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think the well, no, I think

746
00:43:49,933 --> 00:43:52,653
Speaker 3: the US and Canada are probably inching ahead of us.

747
00:43:52,813 --> 00:43:55,893
Speaker 3: But definitely there is a lot of wokery around and

748
00:43:56,013 --> 00:43:58,533
Speaker 3: it's infectious. You know. One of the things that I'm

749
00:43:58,653 --> 00:44:02,093
Speaker 3: really struck by is how much more anger there is

750
00:44:02,253 --> 00:44:05,893
Speaker 3: about British colonialism now than at a time when it

751
00:44:05,973 --> 00:44:07,733
Speaker 3: was still going on, or when it was a recent memory.

752
00:44:09,013 --> 00:44:14,333
Speaker 3: A lot of you know, there were a few countries

753
00:44:14,533 --> 00:44:19,813
Speaker 3: where the end of empire was a nasty, brutal and

754
00:44:20,293 --> 00:44:26,533
Speaker 3: bloody affair Kenya, India, Palestine, Ireland, Cyprus, but they were

755
00:44:26,573 --> 00:44:29,613
Speaker 3: actually the exception. In the vast majority of places, countries

756
00:44:29,653 --> 00:44:31,893
Speaker 3: were brought to independence without a shot being fired in anger.

757
00:44:32,133 --> 00:44:34,813
Speaker 3: And yet if you go to those countries now, in

758
00:44:34,933 --> 00:44:39,093
Speaker 3: the Caribbean or Malaysia or Ugandra or whatever, people like

759
00:44:39,213 --> 00:44:41,893
Speaker 3: they really wish there had been an independence war, and

760
00:44:41,933 --> 00:44:44,333
Speaker 3: they've kind of convinced themselves that there was right And

761
00:44:44,453 --> 00:44:45,933
Speaker 3: where have they picked that up from They've picked it

762
00:44:46,013 --> 00:44:47,973
Speaker 3: up from us, you know, And so there is now

763
00:44:48,053 --> 00:44:52,613
Speaker 3: the rage against an imaginary version of colonialism that there

764
00:44:52,693 --> 00:44:55,013
Speaker 3: never was when it was a real extant force.

765
00:44:55,813 --> 00:45:00,053
Speaker 2: I picked up a book from my bookshelf recently, early

766
00:45:00,133 --> 00:45:04,213
Speaker 2: a week ago, and it's by Simon C. Beeg Mataveori,

767
00:45:05,373 --> 00:45:09,653
Speaker 2: The Biography of Jerusalem, and I started reading. I've had

768
00:45:10,133 --> 00:45:12,893
Speaker 2: I've had it for reading for ever since it was released.

769
00:45:13,773 --> 00:45:17,893
Speaker 2: And I started reading the prologue, and before I got

770
00:45:17,933 --> 00:45:21,853
Speaker 2: too far, I realized from the descriptions that he that

771
00:45:21,973 --> 00:45:25,253
Speaker 2: he writes of the fall, of the fall of Jerusalem

772
00:45:25,293 --> 00:45:27,773
Speaker 2: to the Romans, not a lot has changed in that

773
00:45:27,893 --> 00:45:28,493
Speaker 2: part of the world.

774
00:45:29,773 --> 00:45:34,413
Speaker 3: It's a pretty grim, you know history. There has been

775
00:45:34,453 --> 00:45:38,373
Speaker 3: a series of unpleasant and bloody and depressive episodes and

776
00:45:39,293 --> 00:45:41,973
Speaker 3: punctuated by a lot of kind of genocide, you know,

777
00:45:42,093 --> 00:45:51,013
Speaker 3: and and collective sort of vendettas. So what what's alarming

778
00:45:51,693 --> 00:45:54,373
Speaker 3: to me about this current conflict is how much that

779
00:45:54,573 --> 00:46:01,133
Speaker 3: is affecting other countries. So we're having as you are,

780
00:46:01,213 --> 00:46:03,453
Speaker 3: but I think we're having it much more. A lot

781
00:46:03,573 --> 00:46:07,933
Speaker 3: of sort of public unrest about you know, these demonstrations

782
00:46:08,773 --> 00:46:13,613
Speaker 3: about the Gaza war. Now that. Okay, this is not

783
00:46:13,813 --> 00:46:16,453
Speaker 3: the first time that a foreign war has divided people.

784
00:46:16,733 --> 00:46:19,533
Speaker 3: You know, a generation ago it was Iraq, and a

785
00:46:19,613 --> 00:46:22,773
Speaker 3: generation before that it was Vietnam, and a generation before

786
00:46:22,813 --> 00:46:25,013
Speaker 3: that it was Spain. Right, So that isn't new, but

787
00:46:25,133 --> 00:46:31,973
Speaker 3: the intensity and rage is unprecedented. We've until now been

788
00:46:32,093 --> 00:46:35,493
Speaker 3: pretty good at encouraging people to leave their quarrels at

789
00:46:35,533 --> 00:46:38,613
Speaker 3: the door, and something really profound has changed later. And

790
00:46:38,653 --> 00:46:42,053
Speaker 3: so I was thinking about this. We just we recently

791
00:46:42,093 --> 00:46:46,213
Speaker 3: mark the seventy fifth anniversary of Indian independence. Right, The

792
00:46:47,773 --> 00:46:55,973
Speaker 3: crimes that accompanied the intercommunal violence at partition were more numerous,

793
00:46:56,093 --> 00:46:58,893
Speaker 3: went on for longer, and affected many more people than

794
00:46:59,013 --> 00:47:01,933
Speaker 3: the abominations in the southern Kibbutz of Israel. I mean,

795
00:47:01,973 --> 00:47:04,573
Speaker 3: they are things that I don't really like to think about,

796
00:47:04,653 --> 00:47:07,813
Speaker 3: let alone talk about, you know, in front of your listeners,

797
00:47:07,813 --> 00:47:10,813
Speaker 3: you know, but just just appalling men, women and children

798
00:47:10,893 --> 00:47:15,093
Speaker 3: being mutilated, blinded with chili powder, you know, trains pulling

799
00:47:15,133 --> 00:47:18,453
Speaker 3: in at stations with every single person murdered and blood

800
00:47:18,453 --> 00:47:22,653
Speaker 3: coming from every aperture, and you know, the messages scrolled

801
00:47:22,653 --> 00:47:24,613
Speaker 3: on the side. I mean's just appalling. Now here's the

802
00:47:24,693 --> 00:47:29,493
Speaker 3: extraordinary thing. Most of the South Asian population of the

803
00:47:29,613 --> 00:47:32,813
Speaker 3: UK came from the areas that were most affected by

804
00:47:32,853 --> 00:47:35,453
Speaker 3: that into common Ather Islands above Orpanjab, but also to

805
00:47:35,533 --> 00:47:38,373
Speaker 3: a degree goodj'ar at, you know, Kashmir, Bengal and so on.

806
00:47:40,053 --> 00:47:42,733
Speaker 3: And many of them indeed arived because their families had

807
00:47:42,773 --> 00:47:45,213
Speaker 3: been directly touched by it, and yet they managed to

808
00:47:45,293 --> 00:47:47,853
Speaker 3: leave it at the door. The descendants of the victims

809
00:47:47,933 --> 00:47:50,693
Speaker 3: and the descendants of the descendants of the perpetrators settled

810
00:47:50,693 --> 00:47:53,533
Speaker 3: in the same towns, settled in the same streets and

811
00:47:53,653 --> 00:47:56,413
Speaker 3: put it all behind them. Now, in India and Pakistan,

812
00:47:56,533 --> 00:47:59,893
Speaker 3: that didn't happen. They were so traumatized that they fought

813
00:47:59,933 --> 00:48:01,813
Speaker 3: three and a half further wars. That is the most

814
00:48:01,853 --> 00:48:04,333
Speaker 3: militarized border in the world. And in a way, that's

815
00:48:04,413 --> 00:48:07,533
Speaker 3: the understandable thing, right, The extraordinary thing is that in

816
00:48:07,653 --> 00:48:11,813
Speaker 3: the Anglos, seek and Hindu and Muslim people from the

817
00:48:11,933 --> 00:48:15,733
Speaker 3: areas that were the most affected managed to overcome their

818
00:48:15,813 --> 00:48:17,653
Speaker 3: quarrels in Britain and Canada and the other places that

819
00:48:17,693 --> 00:48:21,813
Speaker 3: they'd settled. Now, why did they do that? How was

820
00:48:21,853 --> 00:48:25,253
Speaker 3: that possible? And possible also for you know, Greek and

821
00:48:25,293 --> 00:48:27,373
Speaker 3: Turkish cypriots who wouldettle in the same streets in North

822
00:48:27,373 --> 00:48:29,693
Speaker 3: London or whatever, or serve some croats or whatever it was.

823
00:48:30,213 --> 00:48:33,373
Speaker 3: How was I think it was possible because the ruling

824
00:48:33,453 --> 00:48:37,693
Speaker 3: ethic of our societies was individualism. We in our legal

825
00:48:37,773 --> 00:48:40,893
Speaker 3: system and in our morality we elevated the individual above

826
00:48:40,893 --> 00:48:43,813
Speaker 3: the collective. We said, you are not defined by birth

827
00:48:44,013 --> 00:48:46,973
Speaker 3: or caste. It doesn't matter what your grandfather did. You know,

828
00:48:47,173 --> 00:48:50,293
Speaker 3: you can't blame somebody for what their family did. We

829
00:48:50,373 --> 00:48:53,413
Speaker 3: are all ultimately answerable for our own actions. And that

830
00:48:53,573 --> 00:48:59,013
Speaker 3: was such a strong ideology that newcomers were able gratefully

831
00:48:59,053 --> 00:49:02,133
Speaker 3: to accept it and put the past behind them. Now

832
00:49:02,293 --> 00:49:04,533
Speaker 3: that's the thing that has changed because in the last

833
00:49:04,693 --> 00:49:08,613
Speaker 3: ten years we've had this obsession with identity politics. We've

834
00:49:08,693 --> 00:49:11,453
Speaker 3: had a return to these kind of pre modern ideas

835
00:49:12,053 --> 00:49:15,133
Speaker 3: of you know, people being defined by ancestry, so that

836
00:49:15,213 --> 00:49:17,333
Speaker 3: if you, you know, if if you're if some remote

837
00:49:17,333 --> 00:49:19,893
Speaker 3: ancestor of yours owned a plantation or something, it's fine

838
00:49:19,933 --> 00:49:22,093
Speaker 3: to take it out on you. Or if you you know,

839
00:49:22,213 --> 00:49:25,093
Speaker 3: the color of your skin links you to some crime

840
00:49:25,133 --> 00:49:29,173
Speaker 3: from hundreds of years ago, that's fine. Well, once you

841
00:49:29,293 --> 00:49:33,173
Speaker 3: start doing that, is it any surprise that some people

842
00:49:33,213 --> 00:49:36,253
Speaker 3: are going to start groping back towards these old feuds,

843
00:49:36,533 --> 00:49:42,373
Speaker 3: these old send these old resentments over blood guilt. And

844
00:49:43,773 --> 00:49:47,053
Speaker 3: in a way, it's not so different from saying all

845
00:49:47,133 --> 00:49:50,573
Speaker 3: white people are guilty because of X, to somebody saying, Okay,

846
00:49:51,133 --> 00:49:55,253
Speaker 3: I can't find the perpetrator of whatever crime I'm upset

847
00:49:55,293 --> 00:49:57,293
Speaker 3: about in Gaza or in Israel, so I will take

848
00:49:57,333 --> 00:49:59,973
Speaker 3: it out on another Muslim or another Jew. Right. It's

849
00:50:00,053 --> 00:50:02,733
Speaker 3: the same dreadful thinking, and it defined our species until

850
00:50:02,733 --> 00:50:05,853
Speaker 3: a nightlink ago. We are. We're a tribal species, the

851
00:50:05,933 --> 00:50:09,453
Speaker 3: human race. We are. We're programmed and to think in

852
00:50:09,573 --> 00:50:12,133
Speaker 3: terms of my tribe good, your tribe bad. Vendetta is

853
00:50:12,133 --> 00:50:14,733
Speaker 3: a very old ethic. The miracle of the West, the

854
00:50:14,813 --> 00:50:18,293
Speaker 3: miracle particularly the anglosphere, was to overcome that and replace

855
00:50:18,373 --> 00:50:21,493
Speaker 3: it with the idea of personal responsibility. And if we

856
00:50:21,653 --> 00:50:24,173
Speaker 3: move away from that in the name of woke, then

857
00:50:24,333 --> 00:50:26,453
Speaker 3: look at what we open the door to. And I'm

858
00:50:26,613 --> 00:50:29,333
Speaker 3: really more nervous about community relations now in the UK

859
00:50:29,453 --> 00:50:31,813
Speaker 3: than I've ever been in my life before, precisely because

860
00:50:31,853 --> 00:50:32,533
Speaker 3: of that background.

861
00:50:32,973 --> 00:50:34,973
Speaker 2: May may it not turn out the way that you

862
00:50:35,893 --> 00:50:40,573
Speaker 2: are thinking it might, But I will. I will just

863
00:50:41,213 --> 00:50:44,293
Speaker 2: add one more thing. There has been a swing and

864
00:50:44,373 --> 00:50:48,413
Speaker 2: a very large swing or away from individuality in this country,

865
00:50:49,453 --> 00:50:53,093
Speaker 2: and I'm very hopeful that the election that just took

866
00:50:53,173 --> 00:50:55,893
Speaker 2: place and the people now in the seats of power

867
00:50:56,733 --> 00:51:00,293
Speaker 2: will hit us back in the direction that we both

868
00:51:00,613 --> 00:51:01,813
Speaker 2: we both obviously agree on.

869
00:51:02,853 --> 00:51:05,653
Speaker 3: Well yeah, I mean, I'm really optimistic about that, and

870
00:51:05,853 --> 00:51:07,693
Speaker 3: you know them better than I do. But the ones

871
00:51:07,773 --> 00:51:09,973
Speaker 3: I know, both both in national and in act, I

872
00:51:10,013 --> 00:51:12,853
Speaker 3: think you know, we all grumble about our politicians, but again,

873
00:51:12,933 --> 00:51:14,893
Speaker 3: you're really not doing badly compared to most places.

874
00:51:16,013 --> 00:51:19,213
Speaker 2: Indeed, the very last thing I want to get a

875
00:51:19,253 --> 00:51:21,933
Speaker 2: word from you on is the Telegraph and the Spectator.

876
00:51:22,933 --> 00:51:24,813
Speaker 2: I have to say that the Spectator has been a

877
00:51:25,133 --> 00:51:27,493
Speaker 2: breath of fresh air in this country over the last

878
00:51:27,533 --> 00:51:30,933
Speaker 2: few years because because of what it delivers that wasn't

879
00:51:30,973 --> 00:51:34,453
Speaker 2: being delivered in any other way. But they're both for sale,

880
00:51:35,813 --> 00:51:39,693
Speaker 2: and you have had a lifetime of association with both

881
00:51:39,733 --> 00:51:41,573
Speaker 2: of them. Are you concerned.

882
00:51:44,733 --> 00:51:47,973
Speaker 3: I think that anyone who bought them would need to

883
00:51:48,413 --> 00:51:54,613
Speaker 3: respect their existing readership just for straightforwardly commercial reasons. They

884
00:51:54,693 --> 00:51:58,333
Speaker 3: have a brand and they have a place in national life.

885
00:51:58,493 --> 00:52:00,613
Speaker 3: You know, the Telegraph has read. You know, I live

886
00:52:00,653 --> 00:52:01,893
Speaker 3: in it. I live in a small village on the

887
00:52:01,893 --> 00:52:05,133
Speaker 3: Hampshire Barkshire boarders. All of my neighbors take the Telegraph.

888
00:52:05,253 --> 00:52:09,053
Speaker 3: It speaks to and four a certain constituency of sort

889
00:52:09,093 --> 00:52:12,853
Speaker 3: of Shia Tories, and any owner who was unaware of

890
00:52:12,973 --> 00:52:16,493
Speaker 3: that would be embarking on a sort of ruinous course.

891
00:52:16,653 --> 00:52:20,213
Speaker 3: So I think whoever takes it over, they'd need to

892
00:52:20,253 --> 00:52:22,333
Speaker 3: be aware of that. And something similar is true of

893
00:52:22,373 --> 00:52:25,093
Speaker 3: the Spectator. I think there are opportunities to grow, you know,

894
00:52:25,173 --> 00:52:29,373
Speaker 3: I think there are opportunities to grow online overseas in

895
00:52:29,453 --> 00:52:32,773
Speaker 3: both cases, and to monetize that more efficiently, especially if

896
00:52:32,933 --> 00:52:35,693
Speaker 3: if you had a proprietor who was prepared to invest.

897
00:52:36,973 --> 00:52:38,533
Speaker 3: But you know, the Telegraph has been around for a

898
00:52:38,613 --> 00:52:42,853
Speaker 3: long time. It's never changed its political affiliation, and I

899
00:52:42,933 --> 00:52:45,533
Speaker 3: think there are just solid commercial reasons for that, and

900
00:52:46,213 --> 00:52:49,893
Speaker 3: so I'm pretty I'm pretty relaxed. Whether it ends up

901
00:52:49,933 --> 00:52:53,053
Speaker 3: being brought by an existing UK media group or by

902
00:52:53,093 --> 00:52:55,973
Speaker 3: a foreign investor, I don't think we'd see huge changes.

903
00:52:56,733 --> 00:53:00,133
Speaker 2: I am going to get abused somewhat after this because

904
00:53:00,533 --> 00:53:02,653
Speaker 2: I can tell you what's coming my way when this goes.

905
00:53:02,973 --> 00:53:06,093
Speaker 2: When this podcast goes out, why didn't you keep talking?

906
00:53:07,053 --> 00:53:11,613
Speaker 2: And the answer is to try and curtail that objection

907
00:53:12,293 --> 00:53:15,493
Speaker 2: is that you have places to go, things to do, responsibilities,

908
00:53:15,653 --> 00:53:18,293
Speaker 2: and that's why you're here in the country. Daniel Hannon,

909
00:53:18,493 --> 00:53:20,333
Speaker 2: It's been a pleasure. I want to thank you so much.

910
00:53:20,373 --> 00:53:22,733
Speaker 3: I have promises to keep in miles ago before I sleep.

911
00:53:22,893 --> 00:53:24,733
Speaker 3: Thank you very much lady, and lovely to catch up

912
00:53:24,773 --> 00:53:27,053
Speaker 3: with you. I've really really enjoyed it, and I wish

913
00:53:27,093 --> 00:53:29,893
Speaker 3: you and your listeners every possible success.

914
00:53:48,453 --> 00:53:51,573
Speaker 2: Well, I trust that you've got something out of that now.

915
00:53:51,613 --> 00:53:53,293
Speaker 2: The way we're doing this is something of a little

916
00:53:53,333 --> 00:53:58,253
Speaker 2: adventure and we're enjoying it, and we've got quite a

917
00:53:58,293 --> 00:54:01,613
Speaker 2: few stories already up our sleeve and a couple of

918
00:54:01,973 --> 00:54:06,173
Speaker 2: interviews that came out of almost nowhere. Anyway, we shall

919
00:54:06,333 --> 00:54:12,093
Speaker 2: return in a week with what is it to ninety seven?

920
00:54:12,613 --> 00:54:15,773
Speaker 2: Doesn't time for flying, So thank you for listening and

921
00:54:16,053 --> 00:54:17,213
Speaker 2: we shall talk soon.

922
00:54:25,293 --> 00:54:28,853
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talks at b Listen

923
00:54:28,973 --> 00:54:31,893
Speaker 1: live on air or online, and keep our shows with

924
00:54:32,013 --> 00:54:35,133
Speaker 1: you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio