1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,520 Speaker 1: Someone said to me the other day, Oh, you know, 2 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: shouldn't you We be doing retaliatory tariffs, and you know 3 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: it's a bit like throwing a ping pong ball and 4 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: an elephant, isn't it. Hey, Look, I'd love to be 5 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:11,799 Speaker 1: generous and spray the money down around. That would make 6 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: my job a lot easier, to be honest, But I'm 7 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: very aware of the context in which we're operating. I'm 8 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: thinking very hard about in an environment of instability, what 9 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: are the policies the government can pursue to give our 10 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: local businesses and entrepreneurs the nudge that says be confident 11 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: about investing. 12 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 2: Cureder. Welcome to shed Lunch, brought to you by Shes's. 13 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 2: My name is Leighton Roberts, and today I'm joined by 14 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 2: the Minister of Finance, Nikola Willis. More than just managing 15 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 2: the country's purse string, the Minister has also been charged 16 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 2: with growing New Zealand's economy. She does this as Minister 17 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:53,319 Speaker 2: for Economic Growth. So in this episode we dig into 18 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 2: the impact of the US tariffs and post on New Zealand, 19 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 2: the leavers, the government will be pulling to stimulate growth, 20 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 2: and what Kiwis can expel from the upcoming budget out 21 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 2: later this month. Before we get started, here's some important information. 22 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 3: Investing involves the risk you might lose the money you 23 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 3: start with. We recommend talking to a licensed financial advisor. 24 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 3: We also recommend reading product disclosure documents before deciding to invest. 25 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 3: Everything you're about to see and here is current at 26 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 3: the time of recording. 27 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for joining us, Miss Willis. 28 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: Hey, look great to be here. I'm not particularly vain, 29 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: but it is raining hard and well income days find 30 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: that's the hair situation. 31 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 2: Look fantastic, but outside is miserbral, so I'll definitely confirm that. Look, 32 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 2: let's get straight into a New Zealand economy and the 33 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 2: position that we're in at the moment. There are signs 34 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 2: now that possibly we're through the worst of it, starting 35 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 2: to see an upswing through twenty twenty five, and I'm 36 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 2: just really interested in your thoughts on this at the moment. 37 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, Look, New Zealand's come through such a tough time, 38 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: haven't we. Because post COVID we have very high inflation, 39 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: very high interest rates that slowed things down in the economy. 40 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: There's a lot of pain for businesses but also for 41 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: households who are still dealing with that higher cost base 42 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: that we've come through, but the road out is looking 43 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: really good. And I know that everyone is focused rightly 44 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: on global instability and what's happening in the world post 45 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: Trump's tariff announcements, and yeah, that's a headwind for New Zealand, 46 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: but we are on the growth trajectory. We will be 47 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 1: growing faster over the next few months than we have 48 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: over the past few months, and next year we're forecast 49 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 1: to be growing even faster. So this is a time 50 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: of opportunity for New Zealanders and I think we have 51 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: a lot to be feeling positive about in this economy. 52 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:32,839 Speaker 3: Yeah. 53 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 2: Great. I always thinking about the last year. We heard 54 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 2: a lot about the sort of survived to twenty five, 55 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 2: and then that became thrive and twenty five and then 56 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 2: now I'm wondering if we're still there or for we're 57 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:44,959 Speaker 2: thinking like it's sort of pick up six and twenty six. 58 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 2: But I'm just wondering we think we are timing wise 59 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 2: coming into the next year. 60 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 1: Look, I think where we are as we are going 61 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,119 Speaker 1: to be out the worst of it, and we are 62 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: now on the bit where the thriving starts to happen. 63 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: But I'm also really conscious that when people see that 64 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: instability internationally, they factor that in here at home. And 65 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,119 Speaker 1: so when I'm thinking about what does the government need 66 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: to do in this moment to make sure that the 67 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: potential for really rapidly accelerating growth actually over the next 68 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: twelve and twenty four months, that that potential is fulfilled. 69 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: Our job, I think, is to make sure that we're 70 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 1: putting in place policies and actions that give people confidence, 71 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: in particular to invest because what you're seeing internationally as 72 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: people are pausing on the investment, New Zealand should position 73 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: ourselves as a safe haven for investment. We have stable democracy, 74 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: stable institutions, stable regulatory framework, a government that's fundamentally pro growth, 75 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: pro trade, pro international investment, and all of those things 76 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: position us well. We also have a constellation of trade agreements. 77 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: We've always been the warriors out there fighting for export markets, 78 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: and so on that context, I think that if I 79 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: was an international thinking where do I want to plant 80 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: my money, who do I want to be doing business with, 81 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: I'd be looking to New Zealand, and we have an 82 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: opportunity to lean into that. 83 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, small sample size here, but made me think we've 84 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 2: actually had some quite random emails come our way for 85 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 2: opportunity to trade the US market, but through a business 86 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 2: that's not in the US, so like sort of these 87 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 2: random opportunities and that might come from different countries, particularly 88 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 2: on the export space for a technology company like US, 89 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 2: but opportunities have never come from where you think going to. 90 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,480 Speaker 1: And I am hearing stories like that. I was speaking 91 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: with someone from Garage Project, you know, boutique beer maker 92 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: here and. 93 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 2: Will there was botique beer, yeah, and. 94 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 1: Great business and they said, look, they've just had one 95 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,239 Speaker 1: of the largest orders they've ever had in from China, 96 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: who of course contemplating the reality that American craft beer 97 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: might not be such a great proposition anymore. So there 98 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 1: will be those niche opportunities and more sensitive though, because 99 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: there'll also be those exporters who are impacted. 100 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 2: Yep, yep completely. I mean, we've got straight into it, 101 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 2: so we might as well cover it a little bit deeper. 102 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 2: But it's somewhat of a political curve for what I'd imagine, 103 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 2: which is the Trump's tariffs and very much to talk everywhere, 104 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 2: been posed here in New Zealand on more or less 105 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 2: every country. What do you think the actual impacts of 106 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,559 Speaker 2: this and looking like what's in your map and radar 107 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 2: at the moment for dealing with these Yeah. 108 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: Look, I think to some extent he did campaign on it, 109 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: so we knew it was coming, and actually to some 110 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 1: extent we what sort. 111 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 2: Of number did you have in your mind? 112 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: Well, I chose not to have a number. I mean, 113 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: it's not a predictable man, is he. I think the 114 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: key thing right now is the uncertainty, because what happened 115 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: on day one is different from what's now unfolding, and 116 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 1: we can expect there will be changes in the US 117 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 1: policy position, and likely the China policy position and that 118 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: of other countries over the next few weeks and months. 119 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: And I think that uncertainty, as much as anything else, 120 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 1: is what's making it really difficult globally, because what you're 121 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: seeing businesses and investors doing is just saying, hold up, 122 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: hold up, let's pause until we know what the lie 123 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: of the land is. So by consensus, economists internationally are saying, 124 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: come what May, there's going to be slower growth across 125 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 1: the world. That always has an impact on New Zealand. 126 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: Because we're an open trading economy. Our treasury is forecasting 127 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: that the growth that we were predicting back in December 128 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 1: will now be lower than we had thought, but it's 129 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 1: still growth is just not going to be as fast 130 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,119 Speaker 1: as we were hoping it would be, and that's because 131 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: we will be buffeted by these ones that are coming internationally. 132 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: So when we grow slower, obviously that's harder in terms 133 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: of job creation and income creation. But fundamentally I always 134 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 1: have to worry about it too, because I'm the bean 135 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: counter in the government, and less growth means less revenue. 136 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 1: Less revenue makes it harder for me to balance the 137 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: books and make all the investments that we need to 138 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 1: make as a country. So we see our job as 139 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,039 Speaker 1: really keeping a steady course, making sure we are doing 140 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: the investments needed, whether it's health, education, you know, the 141 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: defense force, which is becoming increasingly strategically important. And we 142 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: can do that by being careful about how we prioritize. 143 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: But fundamentally, the best way for me to make our 144 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: books healthier is to get that growth trajectory faster. So 145 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: I'm thinking very hard about in an environment of instability, 146 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: what are the policies that government can pursue to give 147 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: our local businesses and entrepreneurs the nudge that says, be 148 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: confident about investing, be confident about taking on the next market, 149 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: taking the next step, so that. 150 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 2: The uncertainty, you know, it's always uncertain really right, if 151 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 2: you look back on history, we've never really been great forecasters. 152 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 2: It's not a fantastic human trait. 153 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: But any one who watches the weather forecast knows that completely. 154 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 2: And you know, we have a bit of a front 155 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 2: row seat to a lot of it, because markets tend 156 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: to reflect how people are feeling, and people don't like uncertainty, 157 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 2: and therefore markets don't and in their place, sir. And 158 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 2: then I was just I literally just read the article 159 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 2: from President Trump giving his one hundred day speech and 160 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 2: saying that he wants to be the pope. All right, 161 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 2: ye that specifically that would be the best job. All right, Well, 162 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 2: I'm just not going to take a guess on that anymore. 163 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 2: But what he did say was that he's only just 164 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 2: getting started, and that sort of made me think, wow, 165 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 2: if this is just getting started. But so, how as 166 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 2: a government you do forecast and plan to that, and 167 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 2: what sort of mitigations you're putting in place towards this? 168 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 2: Given we can be reasonably one thing, we can be 169 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 2: quite confident on is that the uncertainty will continue. 170 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, So there's a couple of things first in terms 171 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: of the forecasts of what the global trajectory will look 172 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: like and therefore what it looks like at home to 173 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: some extent that stays outside of our control, because what 174 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: he does won't be influenced by what we do. Someone 175 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: said to me the other day, Oh, you know, shouldn't 176 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: you we be doing retaliatory tariffs, and you know, it's 177 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: a bit like throwing a ping pong ball and an elephant, 178 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: isn't it. 179 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 2: And that's not. 180 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,319 Speaker 1: All that will do is harm consumers here at home 181 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: who will end up paying higher prices and business is 182 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: here at home. So instead, what we're thinking about as 183 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: to things, first of all, providing some stability in our 184 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 1: own for school settings, making sure that we're still on 185 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: track to get back to balanced books as a country, 186 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,719 Speaker 1: because you can appreciate that when there's global market volatility. 187 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 1: Lenders on whom New Zealand is very dependent, we're currently 188 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: every Thursday afternoon, New Zealand issues around five hundred million 189 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: dollars worth of bonds. We need to look like a 190 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: good place to be lending to and investing so we've 191 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: made adjustments to our own position to make sure that 192 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: we're still on track to get back into balanced books territory. 193 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: We think that's quite important right now. The second thing 194 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 1: is just being clear that our exporters are going to 195 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: need us. So in the first instance, we have established 196 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 1: hotlines websites through the Ministry of Foreign Afairs and Trade 197 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: and through MZTE to make sure exporters can get the 198 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: information they need about what's a quickly changed environment. We've 199 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: got a thousand companies that we work really closely with 200 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: through MZTE, who we've been running seminars and really intense 201 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: support for, and we're going to keep that going. We 202 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: need to make sure that export is trying to get 203 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: information can get it. That's going to be really important 204 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: over the next little while. And then fundamentally strategically, New 205 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: Zealand has always been a country that has pushed for 206 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: a rules based trading system where countries trade with each other, 207 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: and we want to keep that role in the world, 208 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: so that means forging new free trade agreements is more 209 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: important than ever. You saw the Prime Minister kick off 210 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: the beginning of the year with a new arrangement with 211 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: the United Arab Emirates, so really pushing into those Middle 212 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 1: East markets. We've opened trade negotiations with India which are 213 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 1: continuing to progress well despite global turmoil, and I think 214 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,199 Speaker 1: this is actually a time to double down on the 215 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: trade agreements we do have and make sure that we're 216 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: a good partner because that's how our exporters get access 217 00:10:58,840 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: for their products. 218 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 2: Over the last this uncertainty of the last two weeks 219 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 2: has driven some of the highest training volumes we've actually 220 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 2: seen on the platform, which again investing reflects people's confidence 221 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 2: in the future. And so I think whilst is key, 222 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 2: we do tend to be quite good in conversation having 223 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 2: the negative part of it, like it's a nice way 224 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 2: just to have a bit of a winge with friends 225 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 2: and stuff like that, but how we act on mass 226 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 2: behind that can be quite different totally. 227 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: Look that the A and Z Business Confidence Survey came 228 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: out today and instantly sort of stood out to me 229 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: was while people were generally less confident about the economy 230 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: than they were pre Trump, at the same time, some 231 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: of them were more confident about the conditions for their 232 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: own business. They were reporting high levels of confidence for 233 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: their business than they were for the economy as a whole, 234 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 1: but of course all the economy is is each individual 235 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: business added together. And so that gives me heart that 236 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: individual businesses are still confident about what the next few 237 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: months looks like for them. Yeah, I feel a part 238 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: of my job, the responsibility I have is to be 239 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: optimis stick and to remind people of the good things 240 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 1: going on because you know, for all of their own reasons, 241 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: our mainstream media will often emphasize conflict or crime or 242 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: negative things, and you don't often see stories of By 243 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: the way, did you know that this new business is 244 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: doing amazing stuff? Did you know that the Hawthorn Institute 245 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: is coming up with world leading scientific breakthroughs into algay 246 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: and seaweed with Nesley is their major major research partner 247 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: because they think they're the best in the world that 248 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: creating protein from the sea, Like, did we hear about that? 249 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: And I get to see these success stories all the time. 250 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: You know it picks peanut butter. I was there the 251 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: other day. There's a little business that started with a 252 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: fifty five year old who decided to make peanut butter 253 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: in a concrete mixer for the market, and he is 254 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: now making twenty five thousand jars of peanut butter a day. 255 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 1: So we need to tell these stories about ourselves because 256 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: we're awesome. I've just been at the Fintech Festival meeting 257 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 1: all these people who are taking a risk to run 258 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 1: a new financial business because they see opportunity. And I 259 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: see that opportunity, and I think we should talk ourselves 260 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: into that and not into the things that are hard. Yes, 261 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: there are challenges, of course there are, but let's also 262 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 1: highlight the positive. 263 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 2: Coming back to these geo political situations where all as 264 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 2: businesses trying to make changes to our business and thinking 265 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 2: about that. You've made some early announcements on the budget 266 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 2: and just interested to hear how much of this change, 267 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 2: which has come very quickly over the last couple of weeks, 268 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 2: is playing into your thinking there and what New Zealanders 269 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 2: should start to expect for the budget in a month 270 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 2: or so. 271 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, look, I feel quite a solemn durty in 272 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: this job to deliver responsible budgets because hey, look, I'd 273 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: love to be generous and spray the money down around. 274 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: That would make my job a lot easier, to be honest, 275 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: But I'm very aware of the context in which we're operating, 276 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: which is that New Zealand rightly took on debt during COVID. 277 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 1: We can have a debate about whether we took on 278 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: too much, but we now have dead at levels not 279 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: seen since the mid nineteen nineties, for context, where at 280 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: forty two percent government debt to the size of our economy. 281 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 1: Historically it's hovered between five and twenty five percent. 282 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 2: Now the probably what do you think is like a 283 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 2: good level? Now what we'll we I'd. 284 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: Like us to see come back down to forty and 285 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 1: then hover between twenty and forty over time, depending on 286 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: where we are in the side. 287 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 2: Because we're still low globally, Is that right? 288 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, we are, and we should borrow for investments that 289 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: are going to drive our future productivity. Absolutely on board 290 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: for that. The problem that we always need to be 291 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: aware of is that if something major happens, you know, 292 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: big earthquake, big biosecurity incursion, we're then going to have 293 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: to go out to the world and borrow a lot more. 294 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: And there's a ceiling. Yeah, that's right, And there's a 295 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: ceiling at which we don't look as good as proposition. 296 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: And so it's about having enough headroom that when that 297 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: big event comes, we can borrow without getting into it's 298 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 1: basically I worry about the death spiral of a really 299 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: high interest bill on our debt. So, for context, right now, 300 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: spill is nine billion dollars a year on our debt, 301 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: up from hovering just around three previously. Nine billion hard 302 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: number to understand because it's so big. That is more 303 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: than the amount of funding we put into the defense force, 304 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: the prison service, the police and customs combined. All of 305 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: that's just context for the fact that I then say 306 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: the next thing, which is that right now we are 307 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: borrowing to pay for the grocery so we're not just 308 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: borrowing for assets. We're borrowing for our day to day spending. 309 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: There's a thirteen billion dollar deficit this year between what 310 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: we as a government are taking in in revenue and 311 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: other earnings and what we're spending to keep the economy going. 312 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: That's the right thing to do, because New Zealanders need 313 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: stability and their welfare supports and the funding for our 314 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: schools and hospitals. It just can't go on forever. Now 315 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: I've taken the gradual approach. Some people would say sort 316 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: that out immediately. I think that would create a lot 317 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: of pain for people, and it would actually create instability 318 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: in the economy. So we've set a that says we 319 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: will get the books back and balance by twenty twenty nine. 320 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: We think that's reasonable period of time to narrow that 321 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: gap between what we spend and earn, and that will 322 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: allow us to start paying down debt. Now, because of 323 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: the Trump stuff, the forecasts I've been receiving told me 324 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: you're now going to be off track to meet that 325 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: goal of getting the books back and balance unless you 326 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: make for change. 327 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 2: The interest rate's been held up because of what listen, 328 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 2: new uncertainty or what is it that's driving Well. 329 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:32,119 Speaker 1: It's basically that because growth will be lower, we're forecasts 330 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: to be taking in less revenue, which has two effects. 331 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: One the deficit grows larger now and two we then 332 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: have to borrow more, which then creates a larger cost 333 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: there in terms of interest. So those effects on the 334 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: books mean in the absence of any reaction, I'd be 335 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: literally presenting a forecast to New Zealand that showed no 336 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: path to balanced books, and I don't think that's feasible, 337 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: both in terms of international lending but also in terms 338 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: of what's responsible. So we've said, look, we were planning 339 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,439 Speaker 1: that our kind of our allowance, if you want to 340 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: call it, that would be two point four billion in 341 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: the coming for school year. Actually, we've gone and looked 342 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 1: really hard. We've found some more stuff we can reprioritize. 343 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: We've juggled around the other tens of billions of government 344 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: spending that we do, and that collectively means that we 345 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: will only need an allowance of one point three billion, 346 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: so a bit less, and that as to effects one, 347 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: it just means that we're borrowing less than the short 348 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 1: term than we would otherwise be doing. But it's doable 349 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: because with the reprioritization, I can still look everyone in 350 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: the eye and say we've got enough to make the 351 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: investments we clearly need in our health services, that we 352 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 1: clearly need, in our schools, that we clearly need in 353 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: our defense force, in law and order. Also got enough 354 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: room to make a few modest measures to support businesses 355 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: to grow, which is going to be really important over 356 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,199 Speaker 1: this period. So I've made room for that, and I've 357 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: made room for some very modest, targeted cost of loving measures, 358 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 1: so I can do all of that and spend less. 359 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: So that's the right thing to do. I'll still be 360 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: spending more next year than this year. I mean, this 361 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: is the context, right, it's just about how much more 362 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: we're spending next year. 363 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 2: Actually, I hadn't actually observed that. 364 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll be spending more next year and the year 365 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: after that and the year after that. So the trend 366 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 1: is always up because things like super anuation. 367 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:28,120 Speaker 2: Lie. 368 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, the trend is always up. Yeah, that's right, things 369 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: like superinnuation. That bill just grows by baliance over the 370 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: next few years, you know, So we will be spending more, 371 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: but it's just a question of how steep that spending 372 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: more line is. 373 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 2: The defense size of the defense spend. Has that been 374 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,199 Speaker 2: a bit of surprise to you, like it was that 375 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 2: presumably when you were going through the election process that 376 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 2: probably wasn't. 377 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's definitely become much more of a top of 378 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: mind consumed for everyone in the world. I think we've 379 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: all observed that the strategic environment is far less stable 380 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 1: than it was, and New Zealand really has to look 381 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: at it through two lens. One, we have really solemn 382 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: commitment to our Pacific partners, who, to quite an extent, 383 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: you know, our Pacific family, rely on us to be 384 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: the ones that are survailing their ocean space to be 385 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,199 Speaker 1: there if there's a disaster and they need help. So 386 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: that matters, and it's become clear that our defense force, 387 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 1: without a lot more investment, is going to have reduced 388 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: capability to do those things. The second part of it 389 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,199 Speaker 1: is we need to be a good partner, you know, 390 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: particularly to Australia who our only ally, but also the 391 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: other countries who realistically we defend on, We depend on, 392 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: defend on you depend on to not only defend us 393 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: if we need defending, but also to defend the values 394 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:57,199 Speaker 1: that we collectively as a world share, and so you 395 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: know right now that's playing out in Ukraine. New Zealand 396 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: is helping by training troops and at the same time 397 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: we want to keep being able to do those. 398 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 2: Things alongside the country's per strings or being counter I 399 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 2: think you put it before. You'll now also have the 400 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 2: economic growth portfolio, so the Minister of Economic Growth as well. 401 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 2: So I'm just interested. You know, it seems to me 402 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 2: like they could quite easily contradict a little bit, whilst 403 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 2: there's also a lot of alignment. But I'm interested in 404 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 2: how you see those portfolios as being different, and then 405 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 2: how you manage those differences. 406 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I'm really pleased that they're sitting with me 407 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: together because one of the frustrations I had when I 408 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: became Minister of Finance was I would spend quite a 409 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: lot of time have quite lengthy conversations with my officials 410 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 1: at the Treasury about ten million dollars here that we 411 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 1: could make in savings or twenty million dollars an efficiency 412 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: that we could do here. Those conversations are important, but 413 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 1: the most important thing is what are we doing to 414 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 1: earn more? Because when you earn more, your choices are easier, 415 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: and so I wanted much more of a focus on growth, 416 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 1: on what the government's role is in making sure that 417 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: actually businesses are investing, our creating jobs are growing faster, 418 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: and the government has a huge role and it goes 419 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,239 Speaker 1: across basically everything we do if you think about it, 420 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: from how we educate people and upskill them, what we're 421 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:29,880 Speaker 1: doing with research and science, the regulatory and competitive settings 422 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: that we set for businesses, how we support trade and 423 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,199 Speaker 1: international investment, what we do in terms of infrastructure that 424 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 1: businesses rely on. So it spans a huge amount of work, 425 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 1: But ministers get into their own little silo working on 426 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 1: their thing, and what I wanted to ensure them what 427 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: the Prime Minister wanted to ensure is that in all 428 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 1: we do, we are still focused on will this help 429 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: the boat go faster? Will this support growth? And let's 430 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: really focus our gender in on that because New Zealand 431 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: needs growth for everyone to have the living standards we 432 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: desire over these next few years. 433 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 2: Does that change who you like engaging with very much 434 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,640 Speaker 2: on a day to day like you sort of Treasury 435 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 2: seem to me more about the sort of accounting side 436 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 2: of it, I suppose. 437 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 1: And then. 438 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 2: And for the people who support you and your team, 439 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 2: does it they sort of wear jill hats as well? 440 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: Like? 441 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 2: How does that work in a practical I. 442 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 1: Want to be kind to my folk at the Treasury. 443 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: That's still very important to me and what we do 444 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: is very important, but there it has changed. So I've 445 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: had this amazing experience, which is that I have been 446 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: visiting businesses around the country and just literally getting in 447 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: on their factory floors talking to them about what they 448 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: want to see the government focused on from a growth perspective, 449 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: and I have absolutely loved that. Whether it's going to 450 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,679 Speaker 1: see the guys who started here in Wellington and are 451 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: now making electric bikes that they send all over the world, 452 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 1: whether it's going and visiting the small small startups who 453 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,400 Speaker 1: are thinking about our food industry and where they can 454 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: take it next, whether it's going and visiting a dairy 455 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: farmer who now is feeling pretty happy about the world. 456 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: Those business conversations are where a government policy gets real 457 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 1: because instead of it being theoretical, it's look, this is 458 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: the one thing that if you guys could change that rule, 459 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: it would help. And I've got my officials right there 460 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 1: with me, and they're empowered through my Economic Growth portfolio 461 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: to go and talk to the relevant government agency and say, 462 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: the Ministry of Economic Growth is really concerned about it. 463 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 1: Can we fix it? And we can a lot of 464 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 1: the time. So that's hugely empowering and I love it 465 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:29,919 Speaker 1: for you. 466 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 2: Personally, do you feel like there's a I guess hierarchy 467 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 2: of the jobs aside? Do you feel like you skew 468 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 2: towards a sort of front wheel on that and your 469 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 2: own thinking between the two portfolios? 470 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 1: For me, as I said earlier, I'm an optimist. I'm 471 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: a positive mindset person and so that's the part of 472 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: my job that really spins my wheels in terms of 473 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: getting me excited about the future. I view the finance 474 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 1: role as having some really critical enablers. You know, if 475 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: we don't have stable inflation, interest rates are soaring, it's 476 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,479 Speaker 1: very hard to get growth, and so good fiscal economic 477 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: management really matters. But I view it, almost particularly in 478 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: this moment in time, as a role where it's a responsibility, 479 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:19,120 Speaker 1: it's a duty, whereas the growth role as much more 480 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,439 Speaker 1: about possibility and free wheeling. And so I get to 481 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 1: indulge that side of myself. 482 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 2: Nice. So it she's like the whole purpose of our 483 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 2: business to create financial impartment for everyone. So we do 484 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 2: a huge amount of thought of this, and we also 485 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 2: do a lot of serving. And one of the things 486 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 2: we've noticed, and I'll take any opportunity I can speak 487 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,239 Speaker 2: with someone in covenment about it, but is the key 488 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 2: receiver settings and our surveys, for example, for the first 489 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 2: time showing appetite for our customers anyway to take a 490 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 2: hit today for something into the future. A couple of 491 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 2: questions here. Firstly, anything you think on that about the 492 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,360 Speaker 2: sentiment of New Zealanders, which would be wider than our 493 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 2: customer base, who would more be more likely to follow 494 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 2: this closely, but then also any plans for the government 495 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:03,879 Speaker 2: with a save a space specifically. 496 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. Look, I'm just going to first so very happy 497 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: to talk about keep we save it. Delighted too, But 498 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: first it's going to pick up on that point around 499 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: financial empowerment, because one of the things that I've observed 500 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 1: is the often quite large gap between New Zealanders who 501 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 1: have really great financial literacy and knowledge and understand compounding 502 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 1: interest rates, asset growth, dividends, returns, and those people can 503 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 1: then make really great financial decisions. And I'm sure a 504 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: lot of them are on your platform and are excited 505 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: about Chazy's. At the other end, there are some people 506 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: who are smart people. They're great people, but they went 507 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: brought up with those skills. It's not part of their 508 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: daily job, it's not part of their language. And I 509 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: worry about that gap because I truly believe that when 510 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: you have financial knowledge, you can make choices that secure 511 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: your future and your living standards. So I'm delighted. I 512 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:56,439 Speaker 1: just have to say it on your show today that 513 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 1: the government has just announced that we are putting financial 514 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: literacy into all schools. Is a compulsory part of the curriculum. Yeah, 515 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: compulsory part of the curriculum and quite exciting because what 516 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 1: we've done is we've said everyone has to do it 517 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: up to year ten as part of the Social Studies curriculum. 518 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: Fairly teachers are going to say what resources am I 519 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: meant to use? So we've done a peer up with 520 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: the Retirement Commission where they're providing a number of different 521 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 1: resources on their platform that link to different parts of 522 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: the curriculum, and I hope to see the people supporting 523 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,719 Speaker 1: that increase over time, so everything from banker to sorted. 524 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 1: I know Chesy's does some work in this area, so 525 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: I'd love to see you involved on the platform. And 526 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 1: that means that teachers have the tools they need to 527 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: teach this stuff. And that's what we need to see 528 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: because the set ways to keipisaver, which is I think 529 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 1: as soon as people go on to that sordid website 530 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 1: and put the numbers in and see what happens when 531 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 1: you make a higher rate of contribution and see how 532 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:00,640 Speaker 1: much that can grow your asset base at retirement, then 533 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 1: their minds really start to wear over and they start 534 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: to think, oh gosh, this is the compounding effect if 535 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: I save just a little bit more now can have 536 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 1: a massive impact on my quality of life when I'm older. 537 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: Exciting thing about key we Saver, I think, and it's 538 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: part of the scheme that some people criticize but I celebrate, 539 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 1: is that it's not just about retirement. There's a whole 540 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 1: cohort of people who use it now to save for 541 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: their first time because let's be honest, not everyone when 542 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,640 Speaker 1: they first enter the workforce is going to prioritize what's 543 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: happening when they're sixty five. But a lot of people 544 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,199 Speaker 1: are entering key we Saver thinking about how do I 545 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: save for that first home? And it's a great tool 546 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: for enabling that. So I'm a supporter of Kei Saver. 547 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 1: I want to see people's key we Saver balances grow 548 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: and I will have more to say about it in future. 549 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 2: Cool. Well hold that thought even Yeah. 550 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've been working away on it. I've 551 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,200 Speaker 1: been taking a lot of advice and hopefully when I'll 552 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: be back on the podcast talking about it. 553 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,879 Speaker 2: So you also have a portfolio called Social Investment, Yeah, 554 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 2: which many listeners might not be too familiar with, but. 555 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 1: It's a prime Minister refers to it as your passion project. 556 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 2: Right, So Firstly, why is it called social investment? And secondly, 557 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 2: how are you applying this new lens to affect how 558 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 2: you're leading the portfolios or your decisions that you're making 559 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,440 Speaker 2: across the responsibilities that you have. 560 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,640 Speaker 1: So fundamentally, the way I think about social investment rather 561 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: than people use the phrase social welfare or social development 562 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: to describe the things that we rightly do as a 563 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: society to support people in need. The better thing is 564 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: if we make interventions and changes that stop the need 565 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: that we actually don't want people to have to be 566 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: dependent on government support and services into the future. We'd 567 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 1: much prefer them to have the issues and challenges in 568 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: their life resolved so that they can actually have independence 569 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: and choices. And I think of this through the lens 570 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: of an individual about how badly government does that sometimes. 571 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: I gave a speech last year about Jack. I want 572 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: you to imagine Jack. He's a young guy. He's living 573 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: in a house where there's family violence at home, there's 574 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: never really very much money. He stops going to school, 575 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: he gets in trouble with the law. Like there are 576 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: people like Jack out there, and it's very sad. Now 577 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: in Jack's life, the government is ever present. He is 578 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: probably engaging with the police. He's probably had a social 579 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: welfare worker. He's had someone from ordering a tamariki come 580 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: into his life. He's probably engaged with the local truancy service. 581 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: There's probably multiple community groups who have been contracted by 582 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: government to provide support to at risk youth like him. 583 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: There's people who are there to try and get him 584 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: into a job. There's lots of people and lots of 585 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: money going at Jack, but it ain't joined up and 586 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: it's not fundamentally breaking the cycle for him. So the 587 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,959 Speaker 1: opportunity for government is to say, how can we better 588 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: use our dollars to make Jack's life actually better? And 589 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: my philosophical view, having worked in this area for a 590 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: long time and looked across the community, is often the 591 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: people who will make the biggest difference from Jack, for 592 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: Jack will be directly from his community, or it will 593 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: be a local non government provider that have been working 594 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: in that community for a very long time. When you 595 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: talk to those providers, they get often six seven, eight, 596 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: thirteen twenty one contracts from government, but it's impossible for 597 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: them because the contracts are focused on how many meetings 598 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: do you have, how many boxes have you ticked. They're 599 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: getting audited across all the contracts, and they say to us, 600 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 1: could you treat us like an investment. Could you come 601 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: to us and say these are the outcomes we want 602 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: for Jack and the people like him, and then give 603 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: us the space to innovate and do it properly. And 604 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: with the modern world of data, we can now do 605 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: that because we can track the progress that making. So 606 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 1: instead of old fashion multiple overlapping contracts, let's have one 607 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: contract and let's contract for outcomes. That's what social investment's about. 608 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: I went on a very long spiell. 609 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 2: Didn't they contract for outcome? You came to get back together, 610 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 2: like is there a place for private capital play in 611 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 2: your thinking on this or is it just how you're 612 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 2: sort of managing from them? 613 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,479 Speaker 1: Yeah? Look there is in a few ways. I mean. 614 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: The first is that we have a big philanthropic sector 615 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: in New Zealand and there are real opportunities for us 616 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: to partner. Is government better with that sector to both 617 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: share the information we often have so that they know 618 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: both where the need is but also where investments can 619 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:43,719 Speaker 1: make are making a big difference. Sometimes philanthropists are better 620 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: at doing the risky innovative things than we are. But 621 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 1: then they come up with something that they say, this 622 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: is really working like it is fundamentally a great investment, 623 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: and they want us to take it over so they 624 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,719 Speaker 1: can fund the next innovative thing. And that's sometimes going 625 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: to make sense. But the other thing is, you know, 626 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 1: social bonds and those opportunities they can stand cap and 627 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: I'm interested in continuing to explore them. The challenge is 628 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: always proving that you're going to get a better outcome 629 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: that way than contracting with a provider who already exists directly. 630 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: So working through that policy challenge is something that I'm 631 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: taking advice on. 632 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,959 Speaker 2: So Lastly, a big driver for economic activity is confidence. 633 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 2: We've touched a little bit on that at the moment, 634 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 2: but confidence by business system vests consumers to spend flow 635 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 2: into each other a little bit. So with regards to 636 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 2: New Zealand economic sentiment, and my hope and my assumption 637 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 2: is that it will have approved and improved in twelve 638 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 2: months time, just intersting in what you think will have 639 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 2: been the main driver for that. When we look back 640 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 2: over the previous. 641 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: Twelve months, it'll be people like you, Layton, It'll be 642 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: people like the people. 643 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 2: Who listen, there's a lot of weight on my shoulders, 644 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 2: but I'll take it lock. 645 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: But truly it will be It won't be that government 646 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: did this, think it will be individual businesses. Individual New 647 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: Zealander is saying, actually, right now, this is the time 648 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: I'm going to take another loan. I'm going to invest 649 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: in this idea that I've had. I'm going to take 650 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: this business. I'm going to expand it to a new market. 651 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 1: I am going to hire that new workforce to pursue 652 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: that new innovation. I am going to invest some money 653 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: in R and D that I reckon is going to 654 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: pay off. I'm going to do the next thing. And 655 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: so I genuinely think for this economy to have more 656 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: confidence than twelve months, we need to see momentum build 657 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: now by having individual firms, sectors, entrepreneurs saying let's actually 658 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: make the investment now to do that thing we know 659 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 1: could be brilliant. And there are so many things out 660 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: there that could be brilliant. So I want people investing 661 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: and doing it. And obviously every business will make its 662 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: own decisions. But when you do that, that is literally 663 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: where economic growth and confidence comes from. 664 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 2: Nice completely such a mindset thing. 665 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 1: So everyone listening to do it invest. 666 00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 2: So before we go, because we're like, firstly, appreciate, really 667 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 2: appreciate your time for sharing with us and unvestas today 668 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 2: and this access is another great thing about New Zealand. 669 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 2: So that's very much appreciated. But Budget days coming up 670 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 2: has some strange rituals associated with it. We've been told 671 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 2: that Sybil English used to eat a pie on budget Day. 672 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 2: We were just wondering if you had any particular snack 673 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 2: of choice. 674 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,399 Speaker 1: To because Grant Robertson used to have sausage rolls. So yeah, 675 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,840 Speaker 1: that's the whole thing. It's like food related. Yeah. So 676 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,919 Speaker 1: last year, what I had my kids do was bake 677 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:33,959 Speaker 1: cookies for me and the Prime Minister so we could 678 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,839 Speaker 1: have a little kind of morning tea coffee together. And 679 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,320 Speaker 1: that was a really lovely thing actually, because my kids 680 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 1: came to watch the budget and they had some reflections 681 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 1: on my discussions of the ober garlic surplus, but mostly 682 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: they were reflected. Prime Minister really liked their biscuits. So 683 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: they have been thinking about what the next batch are 684 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: going to be for a year now, so I'm expecting 685 00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,720 Speaker 1: they're going to be pretty good. So that's one tradition, 686 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: and then I guess the other tradition that I really 687 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: like is obviously budgets, Like any great endeavor, involve hundreds, 688 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 1: if not thousands, of people working extremely hard. And I'm 689 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: lucky that I work with some of the most talented, wonderful, earnest, 690 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: hardworking people, and so on budget night, a small group 691 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: of them come together and we raise a glass to 692 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 1: celebrate the job done. So I'm looking forward to that great. 693 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 2: Well be so luck Thank you, thank you, thanks everyone 694 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 2: for tuning in. You can watch Shared Lunch on YouTube, 695 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 2: or follow the podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you 696 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 2: get your podcasts. Leave us a rating in a comment 697 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 2: about what you'd like to hear about next. Enjoy the 698 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 2: rest of your week.