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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news talks it B.

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Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of the sis, now the

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Speaker 1: Layton Smith Podcast powered by news talks it B.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to podcasts three hundred and fourteen December tenth, twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty five. Well, here we are at the end of

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Speaker 2: another year. It's the seventh year of this podcast and

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Speaker 2: as usual for most programs to take a look in

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Speaker 2: the rearview mirror regarding what's been achieved, and we do

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Speaker 2: that in a sense replaying over the next few weeks

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Speaker 2: interviews that we well, that we like. But this week

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Speaker 2: brings a fresh discussion on one of the most deplorable

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Speaker 2: aspects of life in New Zealand, drugs and their repercussions.

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Speaker 2: X Policeman Mike Saban has experience in almost every aspect

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Speaker 2: of the world of drugs, and that is of course

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Speaker 2: excluding their use. It's a very revealing discussion. But first,

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Speaker 2: another matter occupying many a mind a I artificial intelligence.

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Speaker 2: Yesterday I got into a discussion with someone very concerned

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Speaker 2: about the ultimate outcome of AI. So, just for fun,

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Speaker 2: I threw in a line that goes like this, does

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Speaker 2: AI lead to socialism? Now? Just so happens. That's the

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Speaker 2: title of an article that I had in my possession,

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Speaker 2: and I want to share some of it. I'll tell

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Speaker 2: you more about it at the end of it. I'm

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Speaker 2: not reading at all. There's an argument running through the

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Speaker 2: commentaria that goes something like this, Artificial intelligence has already

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Speaker 2: rendered some jobs obsolete and will continue this trend until

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Speaker 2: the human race is unemployed. Even now, it surpasses the

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Speaker 2: ability of most people to write an effective opinion essay

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Speaker 2: because it can create logic driven, elegant compositions in seconds.

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Speaker 2: Since government schools turn out illiterates, people will depend on

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Speaker 2: AI commentaries for intellectual expression. Combined with research functions that

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Speaker 2: are allegedly dependent on flawed databases, leading users to accept

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Speaker 2: falsehoods in areas such as medicine, government, and economic theory,

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Speaker 2: it renders them easy prey for a program of complete

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Speaker 2: statism such as socialism. So why socialism, the author asks,

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Speaker 2: because socialists promise to care for the downtrodden, which will

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Speaker 2: be every person left alive when AI achieves full robustness.

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Speaker 2: AI in the hands of a socialist government will feed

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Speaker 2: and house them, and will of course see that it's

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Speaker 2: done equitably. This leaves libertarians and conservatives with the urgent

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Speaker 2: need to stop AI in its tracts now while they

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Speaker 2: still can. The idea of AI overtaking humanity has a

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Speaker 2: distinguished pedigree. The website pause AI presents quotes from leaders

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Speaker 2: in their fields about the dangers of runaway AI. Physicists

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Speaker 2: and cosmologist Stephen Hawking he warned that the development of

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Speaker 2: full artificial intelligence could spell the end of the human race.

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Speaker 2: It would take off on its own and redesign itself

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Speaker 2: at an ever increasing rate. Elon Musk, who is developing

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Speaker 2: his own AI called Grokipedia, said AI is a rare

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Speaker 2: case where I think we need to be proactive in

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Speaker 2: regulation than reactive. I think that digital superintelligence is the

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Speaker 2: single biggest existential threat that we face, and the most

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Speaker 2: pressing one. Microsoft co founder Bill Gates thinks super intelligent

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Speaker 2: AIS are in our future. There's the possibility that AIS

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Speaker 2: will run out of control now. The founder of computer

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Speaker 2: science and artificial intelligence Alan Turning predicted it seems probable

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Speaker 2: that once the machine thinking method has started, it would

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Speaker 2: not take long to outstrip our feeble powers, they would

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Speaker 2: be able to converse with each other to sharpen their

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Speaker 2: wits AI At some stage, therefore, we should have to

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Speaker 2: expect the machines to take control. Anthropic CEO Dardio Emodi

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Speaker 2: has said there's a long tail of things on varying

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Speaker 2: degrees of badness that could happen. I think at the

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Speaker 2: extreme end is the Nick Bostrom style of fear that

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Speaker 2: an AGI that's artificial general intelligence could destroy humanity. I

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Speaker 2: can't see any reason in principle why that could not happen. Now,

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Speaker 2: the foregoing experts have IQs far beyond ordinary, but they're

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Speaker 2: also human, subject to error. And let's not forget that

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Speaker 2: experts have been subjected to the same corrections they make mistakes.

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Speaker 2: Experts are not always right. Now. There is more in this,

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Speaker 2: but I want to jump to the end. A recent

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Speaker 2: poll shows more college students favor socialism than capitalism. This

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Speaker 2: is hardly surprising given the socialist orientation of universities and

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Speaker 2: their misrepresentation of capitalism. As Mesis wrote in Socialism, the

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Speaker 2: terms capitalism and capitalist production are political catchwords. They were

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Speaker 2: invented by socialists, not to extend knowledge, but to carp

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Speaker 2: to criticize, to condemn the economic system that has sent

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Speaker 2: students graduating with four year degrees saddled with mountains of

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Speaker 2: debt and little marketable skills. Is the Federal Reserve, income

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Speaker 2: tax warmongering, interventionist, big government monstrosity that is a gross

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Speaker 2: perversion of capitalism. Now, the article was written by George Smith,

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Speaker 2: who is a former mainframe and PC programmer and technology instructor,

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Speaker 2: the author of eight books, including a novel about a

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Speaker 2: renegade fed chairman, Flights of the Barbarous Relic. Now, I

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Speaker 2: suggest that the article is worth reading in its entirety.

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Speaker 2: And I did a search. This is the original came

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Speaker 2: from the Mesis Institute. So does AI lead to socialism?

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Speaker 2: And under that same heading you'll find lots of variations

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Speaker 2: on the theme. It's fascinating because people have different opinions. Now,

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Speaker 2: after a short break, Mike Saban. Leverix is an antihistamine

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Speaker 2: made in Switzerland to the highest quality. Leverix relieves hay

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Speaker 2: fever and skin allergies or itchy skin. It's a dual

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Speaker 2: action antihistamine. It has a unique nasal decongestant action. It's

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Speaker 2: fast acting for fast relief and it works in under

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Speaker 2: an hour and last for over twenty four hours. Leverix

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Speaker 2: is a tiny tablet that unblocks the nose, deals with

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Speaker 2: itchy eyes, and stops sneezing. Levericks is an antihistamine made

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Speaker 2: in Switzerland to the highest quality. So next time you're

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Speaker 2: in need of an effective antihistamine, call into the pharmacy

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Speaker 2: and ask for Leverix l e v Rix Leverix and

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Speaker 2: always read the label. Takes directed and if symptoms persist,

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Speaker 2: see your health professional. Farmer Broker Auckland Lighton Smith. Now,

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Speaker 2: I've known Mike Saban for a number of years, in fact,

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Speaker 2: at least a couple of decades, if not, if not more,

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Speaker 2: and over that period of time I've got to know

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Speaker 2: certain aspects about him. He joined the New Zealand Police

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Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety six, stationed in Auckland, Folli Ray and Kaitaia,

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Speaker 2: joining the Criminal Investigation branch Intow thousand and one at

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Speaker 2: achieving qualification to sergeant sergeant. Saban has a certain ring

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Speaker 2: about it. Early in his career he specialized in the

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Speaker 2: area of drug enforcement, developing particular expertise in the area

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Speaker 2: of mes amthetamine, but he was on the right side

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Speaker 2: of the law. Mike worked on a various Mike worked

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Speaker 2: on various drug squads involved in undercover electronic surveillance and

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Speaker 2: cannabis recovery operations across Auckland and Northland in particular, and

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Speaker 2: he was qualified as one of New Zealand's first Specialized

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Speaker 2: Clandestine Drug Laboratory Task Force members, whatever that means, responsible

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Speaker 2: for investigating and dismantling illicit pe labs. Let me just

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Speaker 2: try that again, one of New Zealand's first Specialized Clandestine

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Speaker 2: Drug Laboratory Task Force members. I'd hate to answer the

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Speaker 2: phone at your place. Was that was that interesting? We

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Speaker 2: welcome to the podcast by the way, Thank you. Was

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Speaker 2: that an interesting part of your life?

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Speaker 3: Well, it was interesting and scary all at the same time, really,

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Speaker 3: because we within a year or two we saw methamphetamin

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Speaker 3: really explode into the scene. It was something we didn't

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Speaker 3: really know a lot about. And in fact, I remember

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Speaker 3: some detectives from Hawaii actually coming across to New Zealand

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Speaker 3: and talking to us about what they called ice and

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Speaker 3: how it did really just cut us sway through Hawaii

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Speaker 3: and warning us as to what was coming our way,

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Speaker 3: and some of us were perplexed but really had no

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Speaker 3: knowledge as to just how hard the stroke could bite.

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Speaker 3: But within a year or so we saw it and

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Speaker 3: we went from a couple of labs one year to

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Speaker 3: over two hundred the following So being the only hard

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Speaker 3: drug in the world that you can make on your

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Speaker 3: kitchen bench from retail chemicals seemed to take off, very

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Speaker 3: much so in New Zealand. So it quickly become quite scary,

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Speaker 3: even from a law enforcement perspective.

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Speaker 2: Can you still do that? Can you still go and

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Speaker 2: buy ingredients and put it together?

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Speaker 4: Yes, it can be.

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Speaker 3: There's been a lot of diversion away from the retail chemicals,

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Speaker 3: so it's harder to get some of the retail chemicals.

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Speaker 3: They took set to drain out of cold and flu medication,

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Speaker 3: for example, which is one of the key ingredients, but

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Speaker 3: that's now come back in. But what we have seen

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Speaker 3: is a big change in the scenes, moved away more

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Speaker 3: to importation of finished product as opposed to people making

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Speaker 3: it domestically. Having said that, I was involved in an

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Speaker 3: investigation as a private investigator recently in one of New

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Speaker 3: Zealand's biggest labs, and that was just tucked away in a.

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Speaker 4: Little rural area in the co Mice. It was a

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Speaker 4: huge lab.

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Speaker 3: So it's still very commonly manufactured around New Zealand as well.

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Speaker 2: When you say commonly compared with those days that we

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Speaker 2: just talked of, how would it to how to compare?

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Speaker 4: Well.

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Speaker 3: In the early days, there was a few people that

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Speaker 3: knew how to cook it, and they used to be kidnapped,

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Speaker 3: highed out and used by the gangs because they obviously

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Speaker 3: had knowledge that others didn't have. So there was a

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Speaker 3: few people that knew how to do it, and it

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Speaker 3: seemed like an intensely complex process, but very quickly key

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Speaker 3: ingenuity took over and methods quickly developed where you could

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Speaker 3: essentially make it with a a half dozen locally excessed

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Speaker 3: ingredients and literally make it on your kitchen bench overnight.

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Speaker 3: So that took hold very very quickly, and it's still

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Speaker 3: very commonly domestically manufactured. It's just harder to get the

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Speaker 3: suit eff dream. But now that it's illegal over the

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Speaker 3: counter drag again, we might see that pop up again.

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Speaker 2: I remember sitting in a cafe underneath the Metropolis apartment

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Speaker 2: block in Auckland in I believe from memory two thousand

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Speaker 2: and seven. Yeah, it was arounding you, and you had,

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Speaker 2: at that point I think, quit the police. Why did

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Speaker 2: you do that?

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Speaker 3: Well, I took leave without pay in two thousand and six,

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Speaker 3: I believe it was.

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Speaker 4: And I'd spent.

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Speaker 3: A lot of time looking at how this problem had

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Speaker 3: taken off overseas, because the warning we got on the

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Speaker 3: early two thousands had certainly come to fruition. And I

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Speaker 3: joined the police, obviously with all sorts of noble and

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Speaker 3: idealistic ambitions to make the community a safer place to

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Speaker 3: bring my kids up and live in, etc. But P

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Speaker 3: was changing that landscape very, very rapidly. And I remember

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Speaker 3: going to a triple homicide up in Rowany in the

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Speaker 3: far North, where a meth induced attack. A guy had

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Speaker 3: murdered his two children and his partner was badly stabbed

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Speaker 3: trying to defend that, and a neighbor who heard the

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Speaker 3: screams was stabbed in the chest when he came to

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Speaker 3: the front door. Horrific scene. But for a detective who

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Speaker 3: was now a specialist in this year, in understanding what

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Speaker 3: the problem was doing, you quickly worked out, you know

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Speaker 3: the cliched expression, you're never going to rest your way

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Speaker 3: out of the problem. So as I tend to do,

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Speaker 3: I think, well, what's the solution? Then, how are we

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Speaker 3: going to stop this problem? Because we're clearly not going

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Speaker 3: to stop it with enforcement alone. So I went looking

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Speaker 3: for answers and essentially started a company that really looked

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Speaker 3: at the policy focus around it, the education, and started

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Speaker 3: traveling overseas and going to similar jurisdictions looking for what

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Speaker 3: was going to help tackle the problem.

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Speaker 2: Well, now that you mentioned going overseas, I remember bumping

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Speaker 2: into you once in the in the lounge at the

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Speaker 2: airport waiting you. We were both waiting for phones, phones,

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Speaker 2: we're both waiting for planes, but you were going somewhere different,

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Speaker 2: and I can't remember where.

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Speaker 3: I went up to the States a lot, and to

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Speaker 3: Europe year. I went to Canada at one stage.

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Speaker 2: Because that rings a bell anyway, it doesn't matter where

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Speaker 2: you were.

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Speaker 3: Well, I did a lot of traveling over I'd sort

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Speaker 3: of drop in for two or three days, attended an

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Speaker 3: event or a conference or some sort of get together,

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Speaker 3: learn what I had to and head back on a

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Speaker 3: plane and take off. Because I was trying to run

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Speaker 3: a business as well as find answers, and the idea

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Speaker 3: was to put some sort of a solution package together

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Speaker 3: for our little country. Geographically isolated on an island. You

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Speaker 3: can't just drive across the border a lot you can

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Speaker 3: with Mexico in the United States. So I forgeed a

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Speaker 3: solution for us wouldn't be particularly difficult to arrive at.

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Speaker 3: It seems that the political will is the big issue,

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Speaker 3: not the drug itself.

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Speaker 2: Why would there be a problem with political will.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting because I mean, if I look at it,

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Speaker 3: it's sort of twenty five years in this space now.

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Speaker 3: So I've met a few in the political arena over

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Speaker 3: the years and seen very similar answers. Jim Anderson was

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Speaker 3: one of the first I spoke to, and I remember

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Speaker 3: him sitting across the desk from me and the beehive,

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Speaker 3: telling me that it was just another drug FAED that

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Speaker 3: would come and go, so you know, we'll just treat

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Speaker 3: it accordingly. I was confident that wasn't going to be

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Speaker 3: the case. It was still in the early days of

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Speaker 3: the problem. But I think this issue, and the drug issue,

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Speaker 3: not just methamphetaman but drugs. It's kind of like the

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Speaker 3: smelly uncle at the Christmas party that no one really

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Speaker 3: wants to acknowledge or talk to or you know, it's

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Speaker 3: not something that anyone wants to.

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Speaker 4: Really acknowledge.

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Speaker 3: So in that situation, it's usually only when it makes headlines,

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Speaker 3: and it did do in the early days because there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of horrific murders and you know, labs were

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Speaker 3: relatively novel things, so we saw a lot of that

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Speaker 3: going on. But I think over the years it's just

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Speaker 3: become you know, the smelly uncles in the corner of

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Speaker 3: the Christmas party. That's easy to ignore the acknowledge. So

253
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Speaker 3: back then, what was what was the worst? What was

254
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Speaker 3: the worst drug that was available before p or well,

255
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Speaker 3: let's work our way through the through through the system

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Speaker 3: as as it's built over a lengthy period of time. Now,

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Speaker 3: I mean alcohol came first probably then then of course

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Speaker 3: you had pot, and I've always thought that pot was

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Speaker 3: going to be a big introducer to what eventually followed. Well,

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Speaker 3: it is because they talk about it again it's a

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Speaker 3: cliched phrase, but being a gateway drug, and it obviously

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Speaker 3: through the sixties and seventies it was very commonplace and

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Speaker 3: we just happened to be a country that grows it

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Speaker 3: pretty pretty avidly, pretty well. But back in the early days,

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Speaker 3: of course, the potency of cannabis was much lower, and

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Speaker 3: over the years the strains have been modified and genetically improved,

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Speaker 3: and so the potency becomes much high in a way

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Speaker 3: that it captures the parts of the brain that eventually

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Speaker 3: are damaged by it, particularly around memory and a sense of.

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Speaker 4: Presence in the now.

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Speaker 3: And so you know, the drugs sort of thirty forty

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Speaker 3: percent more potent than what it was back in the

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Speaker 3: early days, and it's a drug that typically makes you

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Speaker 3: want to fall asleep and sit in the corner and

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Speaker 3: eat biscuits and chocolate cake, as opposed to a drug

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Speaker 3: like methamphetamine, which of course is a stimulant, so it

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Speaker 3: makes you want to stay up and you feel energized,

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Speaker 3: and it just pumps a large amount of dopamine into

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Speaker 3: the system.

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Speaker 4: So the drugs have a different effect.

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Speaker 3: But once you open the door to the idea that

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Speaker 3: it's okay to smoke a bit of weed, then it's

283
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Speaker 3: not too far to putting a pipe in your mouth,

284
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Speaker 3: and obviously one has a lot more alluring effect than

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Speaker 3: the other. Arguably so New Zealand, you could argue, was

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Speaker 3: sort of set up ready for that situation because pot

287
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Speaker 3: had certainly become quite commonplace, and as it had done

288
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Speaker 3: in many other Western countries. But methampheta means an outlier

289
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Speaker 3: because it essentially kidnaps the reward pathways so effectively and

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Speaker 3: blinds people to the idea that they're actually becoming addicted.

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Speaker 3: And just to give you some sense of that, if

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Speaker 3: you look at if you look at normal pleasures, that

293
00:18:29,773 --> 00:18:35,053
Speaker 3: the dopamine and serotonin and neure adrenaline the pleasure chemicals

294
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Speaker 3: in the brain. So ordinary life pleasure is around one

295
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Speaker 3: hundred units of dopamine. Sex is around two hundred units

296
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Speaker 3: of dopamine. Cocaine's around four hundred units of dopamine. Methampheta

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Speaker 3: means about twelve dred twelve hundred and fifty units of dopamine,

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Speaker 3: and it lasts for a lot longer, so it lasts

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Speaker 3: for eighty hours. Cocaine might last half an hour to

300
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Speaker 3: an hour. So you've got something that gives twelve times

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Speaker 3: a level of normal life pleasure. Most people start using

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Speaker 3: a drug thinking, well, I'm different to everyone else, I'd

303
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Speaker 3: never become an addict.

304
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Speaker 4: They take it, and of course they.

305
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Speaker 3: Feel rewarded and acknowledged and empowered twelve times over and

306
00:19:17,613 --> 00:19:22,333
Speaker 3: so using it again is such a not such a

307
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Speaker 3: bad idea in the mind of the user. The trouble is,

308
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Speaker 3: the brain is very quickly adapts to the use of methamphetamine.

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Speaker 3: So what it does is the way the neurotransmitter dopamine

310
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Speaker 3: passes from one nerve cell to the other across the

311
00:19:36,173 --> 00:19:39,013
Speaker 3: gap and the two is known as a synapse. And

312
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Speaker 3: what happens as those chemicals move from one side of

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Speaker 3: the nerve, from one neuron to the next neuron, overstimulation

314
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Speaker 3: causes that the dopamine receptors that receive the dopamine and

315
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Speaker 3: on the other end of the neuron to shut down,

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Speaker 3: so that it it's experiencing more normal levels of pleasure.

317
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Speaker 3: So with each use, more dopamine receptors shut down. So

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Speaker 3: then three or four uses later or a few weeks later,

319
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Speaker 3: when you take either less of the drug or don't

320
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Speaker 3: take the drug, the normal experience of pleasure has disappeared

321
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Speaker 3: because all of the dopamine receptors have gone, and so

322
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Speaker 3: that's where the addiction really occurs overnight without people really recognizing.

323
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Speaker 3: It's because the brain compensates for overstimulation, shuts down normal

324
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Speaker 3: life pleasures, take the drug out of the equation no,

325
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Speaker 3: not no normal life pleasure. So put the drug back

326
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Speaker 3: in to feel the pleasure again, that's addiction, that's happened.

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Speaker 3: Question occurred to me the list that you just ran

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Speaker 3: through of neurotransmitters. Yeah, well, from what you got up

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Speaker 3: to up to methamphetam twelve hundred, what would you call that? Well,

330
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Speaker 3: that's that I'm not exactly sure what a school and

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Speaker 3: be honest, but it's a scale of of dopamine release essentially,

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Speaker 3: So it's a measure of dopamine.

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Speaker 2: At least that's what I'm looking for. So I wonder

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Speaker 2: there are some drugs, including alcohol, that can make you

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Speaker 2: want sex. Correct, certainly, yes, As you go up that

336
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Speaker 2: scale and you get to methamphetamine at twelve hundred, which

337
00:21:15,973 --> 00:21:20,093
Speaker 2: is what a thousand over the sexual pleasure you get,

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Speaker 2: does that remove the desire for sexual connection? In other words,

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Speaker 2: what I'm really asking is is it a drug that

340
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Speaker 2: kills off the desire to well pillage and rape?

341
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Speaker 4: Well?

342
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Speaker 3: Interesting, it's a very interesting question because it does certainly

343
00:21:41,013 --> 00:21:45,013
Speaker 3: does affect the sexual pleasure centers the same as you know,

344
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Speaker 3: because that is obviously one area that dopamine plays a

345
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Speaker 3: high role in.

346
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Speaker 4: Typically in the beginning.

347
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Speaker 3: What it does is in gender a case of more

348
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Speaker 3: heightened sexual activity because it sort of adds, it adds

349
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Speaker 3: to the sexual experience. So high on methampheta mean plus six,

350
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Speaker 3: I guess you're you know, you're adding to the two

351
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Speaker 3: hundred units of dopamine with an extra twelve hundred units

352
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Speaker 3: of dopamine. But what it does do is very quickly

353
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Speaker 3: because the brain is constantly reregulating itself, is it strips

354
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Speaker 3: back the ability to feel the pleasure. So then sexual

355
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Speaker 3: pleasure actually disappears, and it's not uncommon for users after

356
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Speaker 3: a while to become actually impotent, so they lose all

357
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Speaker 3: sexual engagement and pleasure, which is where a lot of

358
00:22:31,733 --> 00:22:34,853
Speaker 3: sexual violence and things actually you know, does tend to

359
00:22:34,893 --> 00:22:40,933
Speaker 3: generate from. Because obviously more sexual drive and activity because

360
00:22:41,013 --> 00:22:44,853
Speaker 3: elevated because of the methamphetaming, that's all starting to fall away.

361
00:22:45,053 --> 00:22:47,253
Speaker 3: So you've got to take more myth or have more sex,

362
00:22:47,533 --> 00:22:52,693
Speaker 3: or the sex has to be something, you know, more engaging,

363
00:22:52,773 --> 00:22:53,293
Speaker 3: if you'd.

364
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Speaker 4: Want to use that phrase.

365
00:22:54,093 --> 00:22:57,693
Speaker 3: So sexual violence and metham fettering, there's definitely a nexus

366
00:22:57,693 --> 00:22:58,373
Speaker 3: between the two.

367
00:22:58,973 --> 00:23:02,813
Speaker 2: It's want to run through the list of awards that

368
00:23:02,813 --> 00:23:05,813
Speaker 2: that you've achieved over the years. The Royal New Zealand

369
00:23:05,893 --> 00:23:08,293
Speaker 2: nay be sort of on a reward best all around

370
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Speaker 2: officer graduating Training nineteen eighty six. Amity in the class too,

371
00:23:14,893 --> 00:23:15,693
Speaker 2: me and myself.

372
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Speaker 3: No, I think there was around twenty was the intake

373
00:23:20,813 --> 00:23:21,413
Speaker 3: back then.

374
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Speaker 2: Royal New Zealand Police College Patrons Patrons prize best all

375
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Speaker 2: round recruit, first in physical training and defense tactics, first

376
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Speaker 2: in firearms, first in driving and third overall in the wing.

377
00:23:37,813 --> 00:23:39,413
Speaker 2: That was nineteen ninety six. What's the wing?

378
00:23:41,693 --> 00:23:45,333
Speaker 4: The wing? Number third overall in the wing? Oh, there

379
00:23:45,413 --> 00:23:47,773
Speaker 4: was forty I think in that wing.

380
00:23:50,373 --> 00:23:51,773
Speaker 2: So the wing is the class.

381
00:23:51,893 --> 00:23:55,253
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's two sections, two sections of twenty. So there's

382
00:23:55,293 --> 00:23:56,173
Speaker 3: forty in the wing.

383
00:23:56,533 --> 00:23:58,493
Speaker 2: Gotcha? I mean I don't know everything.

384
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Speaker 4: No.

385
00:24:00,733 --> 00:24:03,733
Speaker 2: Northland Chamber of Commerce Business of the Year meth Con

386
00:24:03,773 --> 00:24:07,773
Speaker 2: Group in two thousand and seven. Tell us about meth Con.

387
00:24:08,573 --> 00:24:11,133
Speaker 3: Well, Methcon was the business that was generated out of

388
00:24:11,893 --> 00:24:14,933
Speaker 3: a desire to try and find solutions basically, so I

389
00:24:15,013 --> 00:24:15,733
Speaker 3: think it still is.

390
00:24:15,733 --> 00:24:17,813
Speaker 4: But it was at the time certainly the only.

391
00:24:19,253 --> 00:24:23,573
Speaker 3: Private company that was aimed at tackling a social problem.

392
00:24:23,893 --> 00:24:26,053
Speaker 3: And the reason that I structured it as a private

393
00:24:26,093 --> 00:24:29,293
Speaker 3: company was because if you reliant on government money, then

394
00:24:29,373 --> 00:24:32,173
Speaker 3: you reliant on the whim of government at the time,

395
00:24:32,213 --> 00:24:35,653
Speaker 3: and the smelly uncle on the corner doesn't always attract

396
00:24:35,693 --> 00:24:37,413
Speaker 3: a lot of funding. So I wanted to be free

397
00:24:37,453 --> 00:24:40,133
Speaker 3: of any government influence. I wanted to be able to

398
00:24:40,173 --> 00:24:46,173
Speaker 3: find policy and find solutions that were true to the

399
00:24:46,213 --> 00:24:49,613
Speaker 3: sort of outcomes that needed to be delivered. So I

400
00:24:49,653 --> 00:24:53,173
Speaker 3: set it up as a private company to deliver education.

401
00:24:53,813 --> 00:24:56,653
Speaker 3: Why because to reduce the demand you have to have,

402
00:24:57,213 --> 00:24:59,373
Speaker 3: you have to remove the ignorance. Ignorance is one of

403
00:24:59,373 --> 00:25:03,613
Speaker 3: the greatest enemies of not only this drug use, but

404
00:25:03,773 --> 00:25:04,533
Speaker 3: many a thing, isn't it.

405
00:25:04,573 --> 00:25:08,133
Speaker 2: Well, it's also in platible supply it certainly.

406
00:25:07,733 --> 00:25:08,933
Speaker 4: As as plenty of of it around.

407
00:25:09,733 --> 00:25:13,653
Speaker 3: But so education and the two captive audiences are workplaces

408
00:25:13,693 --> 00:25:14,333
Speaker 3: in schools.

409
00:25:15,013 --> 00:25:16,653
Speaker 4: And I'm a great believer that.

410
00:25:18,453 --> 00:25:21,013
Speaker 3: You know, to change the culture, you really have to

411
00:25:21,653 --> 00:25:25,573
Speaker 3: start changing the attitudes of the younger minds, who are

412
00:25:25,613 --> 00:25:29,253
Speaker 3: more inclined to be able to pick up and lead

413
00:25:29,773 --> 00:25:30,973
Speaker 3: a revolution if you.

414
00:25:31,093 --> 00:25:32,373
Speaker 4: Like, against the status quo.

415
00:25:32,453 --> 00:25:36,773
Speaker 3: The status quo being the notion that recreational drug use

416
00:25:36,893 --> 00:25:39,053
Speaker 3: is a right of passage and it's just something that

417
00:25:39,093 --> 00:25:42,093
Speaker 3: you do, and there's no real issue with that, so

418
00:25:42,173 --> 00:25:45,653
Speaker 3: that culture needed to change. And workplaces of course another

419
00:25:45,693 --> 00:25:49,333
Speaker 3: captive audience, but generally they have children, so you're you know,

420
00:25:49,373 --> 00:25:52,773
Speaker 3: you're getting a message that crosses over. And while I

421
00:25:52,933 --> 00:25:59,213
Speaker 3: was essentially generating income out of delivering education seminars, I

422
00:25:59,253 --> 00:26:02,173
Speaker 3: was using that to then go looking for answers and

423
00:26:02,213 --> 00:26:04,853
Speaker 3: going and meeting people who are specialists in this area,

424
00:26:04,853 --> 00:26:07,613
Speaker 3: who'd been working in it for some time, worked out

425
00:26:07,653 --> 00:26:10,613
Speaker 3: what works well, doesn't work and why, and then try

426
00:26:10,653 --> 00:26:15,693
Speaker 3: and develop some solutions that we could implement here. Of

427
00:26:15,733 --> 00:26:19,173
Speaker 3: course that was the that was the aim, but the

428
00:26:19,373 --> 00:26:22,613
Speaker 3: achieving it was not quite as simple as i'd I

429
00:26:22,693 --> 00:26:23,373
Speaker 3: would have hoped.

430
00:26:24,173 --> 00:26:27,413
Speaker 2: Two thousand and seven also brought Northland Chamber of Commas

431
00:26:27,413 --> 00:26:37,253
Speaker 2: Best Emerging Business, methcond Group and specifically Tall Poppy Business

432
00:26:37,333 --> 00:26:40,653
Speaker 2: Awards Gold Medal. Never heard of them. Do they still exist?

433
00:26:40,693 --> 00:26:42,173
Speaker 2: Tall Poppy Business.

434
00:26:42,413 --> 00:26:45,933
Speaker 3: That might be, it might be called something slightly different

435
00:26:46,013 --> 00:26:48,813
Speaker 3: now I'm not too sure, but the Chamber of Commas

436
00:26:48,853 --> 00:26:51,293
Speaker 3: awards is still around. The Tall Poppy one was I

437
00:26:51,293 --> 00:26:54,853
Speaker 3: think one that one of the energy companies up north.

438
00:26:55,453 --> 00:27:00,013
Speaker 2: And then and then in and eight the Sir Peter

439
00:27:00,093 --> 00:27:05,053
Speaker 2: Blake emerging leader? Were you still emerging at that point?

440
00:27:05,933 --> 00:27:08,293
Speaker 4: Well, I still feel like I'm emerging some too.

441
00:27:08,493 --> 00:27:13,253
Speaker 3: Hears on from there, to be honest, latent, but there

442
00:27:13,333 --> 00:27:17,533
Speaker 3: was because I'm an ex salor and you know, the

443
00:27:17,813 --> 00:27:20,333
Speaker 3: Sir Peter Blake was always seen as one of our

444
00:27:20,533 --> 00:27:22,293
Speaker 3: iconic leaders and still is in my mind.

445
00:27:23,173 --> 00:27:24,853
Speaker 4: And I really.

446
00:27:26,053 --> 00:27:28,893
Speaker 3: When I won that award for leadership in this space,

447
00:27:28,933 --> 00:27:30,733
Speaker 3: and I sort of thought, really, am I leader in

448
00:27:31,013 --> 00:27:33,493
Speaker 3: what does that all mean? So I actually it actually

449
00:27:33,533 --> 00:27:35,773
Speaker 3: caused me to reflect inwards and work out, well, what

450
00:27:35,933 --> 00:27:41,453
Speaker 3: is leadership? And you know, Sir Peter Blake famously said

451
00:27:41,493 --> 00:27:44,373
Speaker 3: it's easy to espouse worthy goals, values and policies. The

452
00:27:44,413 --> 00:27:49,093
Speaker 3: hard parts of the implementation, which is, you know, never a

453
00:27:49,093 --> 00:27:52,013
Speaker 3: truer word spoken, because lots of people have lots of

454
00:27:52,053 --> 00:27:55,933
Speaker 3: platitudes and ideas, but it's the doing that really matters,

455
00:27:56,053 --> 00:27:59,253
Speaker 3: and it's the doing that often doesn't get done. So

456
00:27:59,373 --> 00:28:03,933
Speaker 3: I guess leadership in my mind was applying the application

457
00:28:04,013 --> 00:28:05,653
Speaker 3: of ideas to implementation.

458
00:28:05,813 --> 00:28:10,213
Speaker 2: Otherwise you go nowhere of interest up to this point

459
00:28:11,293 --> 00:28:14,613
Speaker 2: in the career that you had had to this point.

460
00:28:15,933 --> 00:28:21,293
Speaker 2: What was the most outstanding event that you recall outstanding,

461
00:28:21,973 --> 00:28:24,213
Speaker 2: and well, I was leaving that up to you, But

462
00:28:24,253 --> 00:28:26,013
Speaker 2: if you want me to nail it, then I'll say,

463
00:28:26,693 --> 00:28:30,253
Speaker 2: as far as as far as the drug business is concerned.

464
00:28:31,013 --> 00:28:33,533
Speaker 3: Well, I guess this outstanding can be two sides of

465
00:28:33,573 --> 00:28:36,093
Speaker 3: the same coin, because some of them were outstandingly bad.

466
00:28:36,253 --> 00:28:40,573
Speaker 2: That's what That's exactly what I'm driving at. When I

467
00:28:40,573 --> 00:28:43,693
Speaker 2: say outstanding, I mean the one that stands out from

468
00:28:44,573 --> 00:28:48,733
Speaker 2: all the others. What would have been the greatest, greatest, biggest,

469
00:28:48,933 --> 00:28:52,493
Speaker 2: biggest effect on you, biggest effect on other people whatever.

470
00:28:52,813 --> 00:28:56,133
Speaker 3: Well, I think in the early in the very early

471
00:28:56,213 --> 00:28:59,213
Speaker 3: years between sort of two thousand and two thousand and two,

472
00:28:59,933 --> 00:29:01,853
Speaker 3: we went from it being a couple of cooks in

473
00:29:01,893 --> 00:29:04,453
Speaker 3: the country, no one really knowing what was going on

474
00:29:04,493 --> 00:29:09,853
Speaker 3: with it. I was doing electronic type operas or you know,

475
00:29:09,893 --> 00:29:13,293
Speaker 3: surveillance operations. We are listening to people bugging the houses,

476
00:29:13,333 --> 00:29:17,293
Speaker 3: et cetera. And we saw homebaked heroin go from the

477
00:29:17,373 --> 00:29:20,973
Speaker 3: sort of the drug of choice and commodity at the

478
00:29:21,013 --> 00:29:26,493
Speaker 3: time to this new drug, methamphetamine, and going from two

479
00:29:26,573 --> 00:29:28,893
Speaker 3: labs to two hundred within the space of a year

480
00:29:28,973 --> 00:29:32,893
Speaker 3: or two was quite frightening. But what I did see

481
00:29:32,973 --> 00:29:37,813
Speaker 3: was the shift in the in the crime scene. Suddenly

482
00:29:37,853 --> 00:29:42,573
Speaker 3: we had completely different levers being pulled. And the net

483
00:29:42,573 --> 00:29:45,733
Speaker 3: effect is the sort of violence that you start seeing

484
00:29:46,493 --> 00:29:51,573
Speaker 3: once use is embedded. It's completely changed New Zealand society.

485
00:29:52,813 --> 00:29:55,773
Speaker 3: And now you know, you see a lot of it

486
00:29:55,813 --> 00:29:59,173
Speaker 3: on the roads, people driving like madmen. You see a

487
00:29:59,213 --> 00:30:05,213
Speaker 3: lot of you know, significant violence, domestic violence that's gone

488
00:30:05,213 --> 00:30:05,653
Speaker 3: off the chart.

489
00:30:05,693 --> 00:30:07,493
Speaker 4: I've already got that bad enough.

490
00:30:08,373 --> 00:30:10,453
Speaker 3: But probably to answer your question, was there was a

491
00:30:10,493 --> 00:30:17,453
Speaker 3: few homicides involving children that where methamphetamine was clearly involved,

492
00:30:18,133 --> 00:30:22,293
Speaker 3: where it wasn't really understood what was likely driving a

493
00:30:22,293 --> 00:30:25,933
Speaker 3: lot of these changes in behavior, and when you see,

494
00:30:26,213 --> 00:30:29,453
Speaker 3: you know, innocent children that are the victims of essentially,

495
00:30:31,253 --> 00:30:35,733
Speaker 3: you know, a new wave of drug culture and no

496
00:30:35,773 --> 00:30:40,453
Speaker 3: one really recognizing that, no one really understanding what sits behind,

497
00:30:41,533 --> 00:30:44,893
Speaker 3: you know, what's causing these changes. And to me, it

498
00:30:45,013 --> 00:30:50,493
Speaker 3: was that drug and it was our very very very

499
00:30:50,533 --> 00:30:54,133
Speaker 3: quick obsession with it. So you know, that's why I

500
00:30:54,173 --> 00:30:56,013
Speaker 3: left a career that I enjoyed to try and find

501
00:30:56,013 --> 00:30:59,013
Speaker 3: some answers. And you know, it's pretty disappointing now twenty

502
00:30:59,013 --> 00:31:02,173
Speaker 3: five years on to see that that problem. Last year

503
00:31:02,413 --> 00:31:06,653
Speaker 3: was almost a doubling and wastewater supply of tripling in Northland.

504
00:31:06,893 --> 00:31:10,173
Speaker 3: So it's hardly it's hardly been tackled, that's for sure.

505
00:31:10,653 --> 00:31:16,693
Speaker 2: Something that came about today in fact, was a reference

506
00:31:16,813 --> 00:31:22,733
Speaker 2: to so let's move to the to the present and

507
00:31:22,853 --> 00:31:25,773
Speaker 2: where you are after this what twenty five year period

508
00:31:26,693 --> 00:31:32,493
Speaker 2: that you that you mentioned and find out whether you

509
00:31:32,653 --> 00:31:35,253
Speaker 2: think the twenty five years that you've been following this

510
00:31:35,373 --> 00:31:37,773
Speaker 2: pathway has been worthwhile.

511
00:31:39,173 --> 00:31:41,933
Speaker 3: Well, I've gone on to do various different things and

512
00:31:42,573 --> 00:31:46,293
Speaker 3: I'm still I mean, you know, this year I was

513
00:31:46,293 --> 00:31:51,133
Speaker 3: still quite heavily involved in trying to provide some experience

514
00:31:51,173 --> 00:31:55,293
Speaker 3: and policy now into the into the mix for this

515
00:31:55,453 --> 00:31:58,173
Speaker 3: new meth amphetamine sprint team that the Prime Minister put

516
00:31:58,173 --> 00:32:01,253
Speaker 3: together this year this year. But with the outcome of that,

517
00:32:02,213 --> 00:32:04,733
Speaker 3: Having said that, I went in with very low expectations

518
00:32:04,773 --> 00:32:06,293
Speaker 3: and wasn't disappointed later.

519
00:32:08,093 --> 00:32:10,813
Speaker 2: But you better start at the beginning. Is this what

520
00:32:10,933 --> 00:32:11,533
Speaker 2: is this sprid?

521
00:32:11,773 --> 00:32:14,933
Speaker 3: Well after the wastewater came in for the twenty twenty

522
00:32:14,933 --> 00:32:18,893
Speaker 3: four year being almost double the levels as per the

523
00:32:18,973 --> 00:32:21,573
Speaker 3: previous years. So the wastewater sampling they do now they

524
00:32:21,613 --> 00:32:23,533
Speaker 3: can pick up traces of myth and fetamine and tell

525
00:32:24,133 --> 00:32:26,693
Speaker 3: broadly how much use is going on, notwithstanding the fact

526
00:32:26,693 --> 00:32:28,573
Speaker 3: that a lot of us have sept the tanks, of course,

527
00:32:29,653 --> 00:32:33,893
Speaker 3: but it had doubled within a year and a big

528
00:32:34,013 --> 00:32:36,933
Speaker 3: change in the scene. It happened where there was methamphetamine

529
00:32:36,933 --> 00:32:40,533
Speaker 3: coming from Latinum Miracle, South America, not just Asia, where

530
00:32:40,573 --> 00:32:44,013
Speaker 3: a lot of myth and fetamine and products related to

531
00:32:44,093 --> 00:32:47,733
Speaker 3: have come from the Pacific Islands have been seen as

532
00:32:48,053 --> 00:32:50,933
Speaker 3: stepping stone in that equation. Mind you, they always have been.

533
00:32:50,973 --> 00:32:54,413
Speaker 3: Actually people just waking up to that idea now. But

534
00:32:54,573 --> 00:32:56,773
Speaker 3: the scene, you know, clearly there's a lot of demand

535
00:32:56,813 --> 00:33:01,493
Speaker 3: because of that much supply as being intercepted seen in wastewater,

536
00:33:01,573 --> 00:33:05,453
Speaker 3: and interceptions are so high it becomes a political problem,

537
00:33:05,533 --> 00:33:10,653
Speaker 3: right because people are talking about it. So a Prime

538
00:33:10,653 --> 00:33:13,093
Speaker 3: Minister Luxe and put together what he called a sprint

539
00:33:13,093 --> 00:33:18,773
Speaker 3: team back in March of twenty twenty five. Hardly a

540
00:33:18,853 --> 00:33:23,413
Speaker 3: sprint because the solutions they've come up with went delivered

541
00:33:23,493 --> 00:33:25,373
Speaker 3: until just a couple of weeks back.

542
00:33:26,613 --> 00:33:28,413
Speaker 4: So more of a.

543
00:33:28,373 --> 00:33:30,893
Speaker 3: Quick walk than a sprint, I would suggest. But it's

544
00:33:31,053 --> 00:33:36,053
Speaker 3: just more of the same, done harder, expecting a different result,

545
00:33:36,373 --> 00:33:42,013
Speaker 3: and I think pretty much describes the definition of insanity.

546
00:33:42,173 --> 00:33:42,573
Speaker 4: Right there.

547
00:33:43,053 --> 00:33:47,493
Speaker 3: So, in summary, in answering your question, after twenty five years,

548
00:33:47,533 --> 00:33:49,933
Speaker 3: it's disappointing that we still think that if we do

549
00:33:50,013 --> 00:33:52,533
Speaker 3: the same thing harder, we'll somehow get a different result,

550
00:33:52,613 --> 00:33:56,213
Speaker 3: when the problem now is so much more entrenched and

551
00:33:56,373 --> 00:34:01,373
Speaker 3: so much more widespread than what it ever was. If

552
00:34:01,773 --> 00:34:04,173
Speaker 3: doing more of the same was going to solve the problem,

553
00:34:04,253 --> 00:34:06,613
Speaker 3: we were to solve this problem ten to fifteen years ago.

554
00:34:07,173 --> 00:34:11,693
Speaker 3: So I don't anticipate any real change to it because

555
00:34:11,813 --> 00:34:18,293
Speaker 3: the fundamentally not really addressing the incontrovertible facts that underpin

556
00:34:18,413 --> 00:34:21,613
Speaker 3: this problem. And they are three things in my view

557
00:34:21,653 --> 00:34:23,973
Speaker 3: and my experience over these twenty five years.

558
00:34:24,813 --> 00:34:26,573
Speaker 4: One is methampheta.

559
00:34:26,013 --> 00:34:28,773
Speaker 3: Means an outlier, so it's an entirely you know, many

560
00:34:28,813 --> 00:34:31,253
Speaker 3: many years ago there was speed, which is a five

561
00:34:31,253 --> 00:34:33,693
Speaker 3: percent version of what P is, so it's a cut

562
00:34:33,693 --> 00:34:36,293
Speaker 3: down version of that drug. But the world has never

563
00:34:36,293 --> 00:34:38,693
Speaker 3: seen a stimulant drug like this. It's never seen a

564
00:34:38,693 --> 00:34:41,053
Speaker 3: stimulant drug that crosses all the social boundaries.

565
00:34:41,413 --> 00:34:44,573
Speaker 2: What was the drug a few years ago at least

566
00:34:44,573 --> 00:34:47,813
Speaker 2: ten which went on legal sale in.

567
00:34:48,413 --> 00:34:54,533
Speaker 4: There is oh synthetic cannabis. I can't party and party

568
00:34:54,533 --> 00:34:55,453
Speaker 4: pills et cetera.

569
00:34:55,533 --> 00:34:59,573
Speaker 3: Party pills. Yeah, party pills. Party pills, yep, your opinion,

570
00:34:59,933 --> 00:35:03,173
Speaker 3: well a different to meth and feta meane, But.

571
00:35:03,813 --> 00:35:07,293
Speaker 2: Oh certainly, But this was but putting them. I mean

572
00:35:07,333 --> 00:35:10,573
Speaker 2: I remember going in Hawks Bay and going into a

573
00:35:10,813 --> 00:35:12,853
Speaker 2: into a dairy and there they were sitting in a

574
00:35:12,893 --> 00:35:13,853
Speaker 2: box on the counter.

575
00:35:16,053 --> 00:35:21,013
Speaker 3: In my opinion, crazy, just like vapes are crazy. Why

576
00:35:21,053 --> 00:35:24,093
Speaker 3: because you know, last time I checked, none of that's

577
00:35:24,133 --> 00:35:29,053
Speaker 3: healthy stuff to put inside your system. And it's just

578
00:35:29,133 --> 00:35:33,253
Speaker 3: a different way to have a mind altering experience. And

579
00:35:34,093 --> 00:35:37,013
Speaker 3: for a country that's already got an issue around us stuff.

580
00:35:37,133 --> 00:35:39,613
Speaker 3: So in other words, we've got a very sort of

581
00:35:39,813 --> 00:35:44,613
Speaker 3: enabling attitude towards mind altering substances. It seems to me

582
00:35:44,693 --> 00:35:49,453
Speaker 3: that adding alternate ways to do it is just it's

583
00:35:49,493 --> 00:35:51,853
Speaker 3: just broadening the amount of people who think, well, I've

584
00:35:51,893 --> 00:35:53,973
Speaker 3: taken that step, that didn't really take me very far.

585
00:35:54,053 --> 00:35:55,013
Speaker 4: What's the next option?

586
00:35:56,253 --> 00:35:59,173
Speaker 3: And when those next options are something as potent as meth,

587
00:35:59,773 --> 00:36:02,213
Speaker 3: you know, there's an issues. But the party pills came

588
00:36:02,253 --> 00:36:04,773
Speaker 3: and went, People made money out of it, some people

589
00:36:04,813 --> 00:36:07,853
Speaker 3: died out of it, and you know, we've seen the

590
00:36:07,853 --> 00:36:09,133
Speaker 3: same as someetic cannabis.

591
00:36:09,133 --> 00:36:12,813
Speaker 4: The same thing happened there, you know, when the.

592
00:36:12,813 --> 00:36:16,293
Speaker 3: Vapes come along as another example, Oh, it'll help people

593
00:36:16,773 --> 00:36:20,333
Speaker 3: stop cigarette smoking, but the tobacco companies have quickly worked

594
00:36:20,333 --> 00:36:23,013
Speaker 3: out people like puffing something into their lung. So let's

595
00:36:23,053 --> 00:36:25,333
Speaker 3: you know, make it candy floss flavor, you know, and

596
00:36:25,373 --> 00:36:27,133
Speaker 3: put a bit of nicotine in it as well.

597
00:36:27,853 --> 00:36:28,973
Speaker 4: Boom where we go.

598
00:36:30,213 --> 00:36:32,333
Speaker 3: So now they're trying to cut down on vapes and

599
00:36:32,373 --> 00:36:34,853
Speaker 3: trying to narrow you know, let narrow that down. So

600
00:36:35,133 --> 00:36:38,173
Speaker 3: it's it's like a fat man leading his belt out

601
00:36:38,213 --> 00:36:40,173
Speaker 3: all the time to fix his obesity problem. You know,

602
00:36:40,333 --> 00:36:44,173
Speaker 3: the problem actually just gets worse because it's not addressing

603
00:36:44,213 --> 00:36:47,133
Speaker 3: the attitude. And one of the frustrating things that I

604
00:36:47,253 --> 00:36:49,613
Speaker 3: find Latin, and I'm sure this will resonate with you,

605
00:36:49,813 --> 00:36:52,813
Speaker 3: is we're all running around talking about how to save

606
00:36:52,893 --> 00:36:57,053
Speaker 3: the planet and you know, climate change and global warming

607
00:36:57,133 --> 00:36:59,973
Speaker 3: or whatever you want to call it. But we're self

608
00:37:00,013 --> 00:37:04,213
Speaker 3: inducing biochemical warfare on our own brains. So we're losing

609
00:37:04,413 --> 00:37:08,533
Speaker 3: the power and control over our own minds willingly by

610
00:37:08,573 --> 00:37:12,413
Speaker 3: taking substances that deny us of the freedom of choice

611
00:37:12,853 --> 00:37:16,693
Speaker 3: that is fundamental to our function as a human as

612
00:37:16,733 --> 00:37:17,253
Speaker 3: a species.

613
00:37:17,333 --> 00:37:20,813
Speaker 2: When you say willingly, would it be correct to say

614
00:37:20,893 --> 00:37:24,493
Speaker 2: or lest partially correct to say willingly but unknowingly.

615
00:37:24,933 --> 00:37:27,213
Speaker 3: Well, that's the ignorant part of it. That's the ignorance

616
00:37:27,213 --> 00:37:27,653
Speaker 3: part of it.

617
00:37:27,853 --> 00:37:33,733
Speaker 2: But there's two forms of ignorance ignorance. Ignorance a a stream.

618
00:37:33,773 --> 00:37:38,453
Speaker 2: Ignorance is you just don't know. The stream ignorance is

619
00:37:39,013 --> 00:37:39,653
Speaker 2: who cares?

620
00:37:40,653 --> 00:37:43,693
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you can combine the two because I think

621
00:37:43,733 --> 00:37:50,373
Speaker 3: they're intrinsically linked to one another either way, once people understand,

622
00:37:50,373 --> 00:37:52,293
Speaker 3: and that's what the education that we used to deliver

623
00:37:52,453 --> 00:37:54,773
Speaker 3: is all about, once they understand how this stroke capts

624
00:37:54,893 --> 00:37:58,573
Speaker 3: the reward pathways. So what's going on in a physiological

625
00:37:58,653 --> 00:38:01,853
Speaker 3: sense that you can't control. You can control whether you

626
00:38:01,933 --> 00:38:04,213
Speaker 3: put it in your gob or smoke it or stick

627
00:38:04,253 --> 00:38:05,733
Speaker 3: it in a needle and pop it in your arm,

628
00:38:06,213 --> 00:38:08,333
Speaker 3: you can't control what it's doing once it's in there,

629
00:38:08,373 --> 00:38:10,533
Speaker 3: and once you understand what's going on and how it

630
00:38:10,613 --> 00:38:17,173
Speaker 3: captures your ability to say no. So addiction has continued

631
00:38:17,253 --> 00:38:21,053
Speaker 3: use despite adverse consequences. It's using because you can't not use,

632
00:38:22,773 --> 00:38:27,053
Speaker 3: and people get captured in that blindly with ignorance for

633
00:38:27,133 --> 00:38:30,853
Speaker 3: both the reasons that you've that you've given and it

634
00:38:30,893 --> 00:38:36,013
Speaker 3: crosses all the social boundaries, so it is definitely it

635
00:38:36,053 --> 00:38:39,373
Speaker 3: is it's the outlier. It is definitely the outlier drug.

636
00:38:39,413 --> 00:38:41,973
Speaker 3: And I've seen people from all walks of society that

637
00:38:42,053 --> 00:38:44,853
Speaker 3: you would never expect to say, get into something like

638
00:38:44,893 --> 00:38:47,293
Speaker 3: heroin and be sticking a needle in their arm, who

639
00:38:47,493 --> 00:38:52,613
Speaker 3: lose lose their entire lives existence, sometimes their life to methampheta. Mean,

640
00:38:52,693 --> 00:38:55,613
Speaker 3: it just it sneaks up on people in a way

641
00:38:55,653 --> 00:38:59,293
Speaker 3: that you know, we just don't see. And coming back

642
00:38:59,293 --> 00:39:01,973
Speaker 3: to my original point, that is one of the things

643
00:39:02,013 --> 00:39:04,293
Speaker 3: that needs to be addressed in terms of policy. How

644
00:39:04,293 --> 00:39:07,173
Speaker 3: do you address a problem of that nature, because it's

645
00:39:07,213 --> 00:39:09,173
Speaker 3: not like it was thirty of forty years ago. This

646
00:39:09,253 --> 00:39:12,773
Speaker 3: is an outlier drug and it's widespread and its use.

647
00:39:13,853 --> 00:39:20,013
Speaker 3: And the second factor that we've in my view, gone

648
00:39:20,133 --> 00:39:24,173
Speaker 3: awry over the years is our drug policy philosophy or

649
00:39:24,213 --> 00:39:29,373
Speaker 3: ideology centers around harmonimization or harm reduction, which really says

650
00:39:29,453 --> 00:39:34,933
Speaker 3: drug use is inevitable, so we should manage the harm.

651
00:39:34,693 --> 00:39:36,853
Speaker 4: That it causes more successfully.

652
00:39:37,013 --> 00:39:40,373
Speaker 2: Even when I was young and stupid, I knew that

653
00:39:40,373 --> 00:39:41,253
Speaker 2: that was nonsense.

654
00:39:41,413 --> 00:39:43,093
Speaker 3: Well, I don't think you have to be a rocket

655
00:39:43,093 --> 00:39:46,893
Speaker 3: scientist to work out that that is absolute nonsense, because

656
00:39:48,133 --> 00:39:50,853
Speaker 3: we don't do that with alcoholics. For example, I mean,

657
00:39:50,893 --> 00:39:53,413
Speaker 3: when was the last time someone went to AA and

658
00:39:53,453 --> 00:39:54,893
Speaker 3: they were told, we'll shivers.

659
00:39:54,973 --> 00:39:55,133
Speaker 4: You know.

660
00:39:55,173 --> 00:39:57,853
Speaker 3: All that wine you're drinking is causing you a substantial

661
00:39:57,893 --> 00:40:00,813
Speaker 3: amount of issue. All that vodka you're drinking is causing

662
00:40:00,853 --> 00:40:03,893
Speaker 3: you a substantial amount of issue. You know, Let's replace

663
00:40:04,013 --> 00:40:07,893
Speaker 3: that with another alcohol. Let's give you bear instead of vodka,

664
00:40:07,973 --> 00:40:09,573
Speaker 3: because it'll be so much better for you.

665
00:40:10,293 --> 00:40:12,013
Speaker 4: That's what we typically do with drugs.

666
00:40:12,133 --> 00:40:16,813
Speaker 3: You know, don't take heroine, take methadone, don't take methamphetamine,

667
00:40:17,213 --> 00:40:21,173
Speaker 3: use you know, I don't know. They all sorts of alternatives.

668
00:40:22,053 --> 00:40:25,653
Speaker 3: So it's a nonsense that people go for alcohol addiction

669
00:40:25,773 --> 00:40:29,613
Speaker 3: treatment and they're aiming to achieve and maintain sobriety, right,

670
00:40:29,693 --> 00:40:32,493
Speaker 3: So they're not saying replace one form of alcohol or another.

671
00:40:32,533 --> 00:40:34,853
Speaker 3: They say, well, no, alcohol is the best Alcohol is

672
00:40:34,853 --> 00:40:36,093
Speaker 3: the best form of alcohol for you.

673
00:40:36,653 --> 00:40:39,653
Speaker 4: But with drugs, we don't do that, we have would.

674
00:40:39,493 --> 00:40:41,733
Speaker 2: That be would that have anything to do though, with

675
00:40:43,253 --> 00:40:46,773
Speaker 2: the fact that alcohol's legal. Drugs that we're talking about

676
00:40:46,813 --> 00:40:50,813
Speaker 2: are not. Therefore you might need to deal with it

677
00:40:50,853 --> 00:40:51,533
Speaker 2: in a different way.

678
00:40:52,213 --> 00:40:55,213
Speaker 3: Well, that would be the case were it not for

679
00:40:55,293 --> 00:40:59,173
Speaker 3: the fact that the drug, the chemical nature of a

680
00:40:59,253 --> 00:41:02,173
Speaker 3: drug is not in any way, shape or form impacted

681
00:41:02,213 --> 00:41:04,453
Speaker 3: by its legal or illegal status.

682
00:41:04,613 --> 00:41:05,493
Speaker 2: Is it that.

683
00:41:06,253 --> 00:41:09,053
Speaker 3: Let's if you step back, because there's a lot of

684
00:41:09,053 --> 00:41:13,213
Speaker 3: the arguments from the pro drug lobby, Well, it's the

685
00:41:13,293 --> 00:41:15,453
Speaker 3: laws that are the problem. You know, you're putting innocent

686
00:41:15,493 --> 00:41:20,213
Speaker 3: people in prison, and you know, and alcohol. Then they'll

687
00:41:20,213 --> 00:41:24,533
Speaker 3: cite in the same argument that alcohol is the most

688
00:41:24,573 --> 00:41:26,813
Speaker 3: evil drug, it is the most widely used, it's the

689
00:41:26,853 --> 00:41:30,973
Speaker 3: most damaging drug, and it's legal and it's an irregulated market.

690
00:41:31,653 --> 00:41:33,973
Speaker 3: But in the same breath they're talking about wanting to

691
00:41:34,013 --> 00:41:38,813
Speaker 3: put illicit drugs into the same regulated market. The reason

692
00:41:38,853 --> 00:41:41,893
Speaker 3: alcohol is used so widely is because it is an

693
00:41:41,933 --> 00:41:45,853
Speaker 3: irregulated market, say eighty five percent of population rough terms.

694
00:41:47,493 --> 00:41:50,213
Speaker 4: But I've consumed the alcohol most of my life.

695
00:41:50,293 --> 00:41:52,293
Speaker 3: Not a big drinker, but I do have a drink

696
00:41:52,293 --> 00:41:55,373
Speaker 3: here and there, and last time I checked, I haven't

697
00:41:55,413 --> 00:41:58,973
Speaker 3: become a sort of bloodthirsty murderer. You can't say that

698
00:41:59,053 --> 00:42:02,813
Speaker 3: for people that start using methamphetamine. So the chemical nature

699
00:42:02,853 --> 00:42:06,773
Speaker 3: of the drugs doesn't impact it isn't impacted by its

700
00:42:06,853 --> 00:42:10,773
Speaker 3: legal status. But it's important to understand that laws are

701
00:42:10,813 --> 00:42:13,893
Speaker 3: made for laura abiding citizens, so they guide those who

702
00:42:13,933 --> 00:42:16,293
Speaker 3: are willing to obey laws in terms of a direction,

703
00:42:16,373 --> 00:42:18,373
Speaker 3: provide consequences for those that don't.

704
00:42:18,893 --> 00:42:22,573
Speaker 2: You know, that's probably the smartest thing I've heard anybody say.

705
00:42:22,733 --> 00:42:26,853
Speaker 2: Cut for some time. Laws are made for people who

706
00:42:27,013 --> 00:42:27,733
Speaker 2: oblige them.

707
00:42:27,893 --> 00:42:32,693
Speaker 3: Yeah, so laws don't matter. And the smacking law is

708
00:42:32,693 --> 00:42:34,893
Speaker 3: a very good example. Got any less child abuse since

709
00:42:34,893 --> 00:42:38,373
Speaker 3: we've passed that legislation. No, Well, when you say no,

710
00:42:40,173 --> 00:42:42,413
Speaker 3: you don't hear about it as much, do you, No,

711
00:42:42,653 --> 00:42:46,813
Speaker 3: Because the idea of us murdering children is you know,

712
00:42:46,853 --> 00:42:49,133
Speaker 3: it comes and goes in terms of it being a

713
00:42:49,693 --> 00:42:53,213
Speaker 3: first ten minutes of the news bulletin. It trust me,

714
00:42:53,413 --> 00:42:55,813
Speaker 3: in the area that I work in, it's happening just

715
00:42:55,853 --> 00:43:01,333
Speaker 3: as much. And the fundamentals are really this. In terms

716
00:43:01,333 --> 00:43:04,973
Speaker 3: of laws, laws are there for law abiding citizens because

717
00:43:05,013 --> 00:43:08,973
Speaker 3: lawabiding citizens will follow laws. Laws are also there to

718
00:43:09,173 --> 00:43:12,733
Speaker 3: punish those and have consequences for those that don't by

719
00:43:13,173 --> 00:43:16,373
Speaker 3: abide by laws. So the laws have that effect. But

720
00:43:16,493 --> 00:43:20,053
Speaker 3: what effect do laws have in terms of parenting? Well,

721
00:43:20,093 --> 00:43:22,693
Speaker 3: they give you the ability to say, well, the government

722
00:43:22,733 --> 00:43:26,173
Speaker 3: says that's against the law, So I would think that

723
00:43:26,213 --> 00:43:28,773
Speaker 3: it's not a good idea for you son or daughter

724
00:43:28,853 --> 00:43:32,853
Speaker 3: to be doing these particular things. And if you look

725
00:43:32,853 --> 00:43:35,853
Speaker 3: at because some people think, oh, well, you know, everyone's

726
00:43:35,853 --> 00:43:38,813
Speaker 3: going to use drugs anyway, regardless, it doesn't matter what

727
00:43:38,813 --> 00:43:41,133
Speaker 3: the laws are. In fact, the laws are the real problem.

728
00:43:41,253 --> 00:43:44,453
Speaker 3: I totally disagree with that. If you look at the

729
00:43:44,453 --> 00:43:46,933
Speaker 3: bell curve, there we people who will never use drugs.

730
00:43:47,093 --> 00:43:49,173
Speaker 3: There will people who will always use drugs. But at

731
00:43:49,173 --> 00:43:51,133
Speaker 3: the middle of that bell curve is people that are

732
00:43:51,173 --> 00:43:54,093
Speaker 3: neither one way or the other. And the idea around

733
00:43:54,093 --> 00:43:58,733
Speaker 3: good policy should be that those people will be impacted

734
00:43:59,013 --> 00:44:03,053
Speaker 3: by those laws because largely that group of people will

735
00:44:03,053 --> 00:44:06,293
Speaker 3: fall into the law abiding citizen category. So you can

736
00:44:06,453 --> 00:44:10,813
Speaker 3: use the laws to help lever and guide and provide

737
00:44:10,813 --> 00:44:14,453
Speaker 3: parents with a platform to guide their children. Taking the

738
00:44:14,533 --> 00:44:16,893
Speaker 3: laws away doesn't take away the impact of the drug.

739
00:44:17,093 --> 00:44:17,853
Speaker 4: So it would be.

740
00:44:17,893 --> 00:44:22,133
Speaker 3: Just like letting riot run run wild if you were

741
00:44:22,173 --> 00:44:24,253
Speaker 3: to say, well, let's decriminalize it. And I was in

742
00:44:24,293 --> 00:44:26,853
Speaker 3: a debate recently on this exact subject where they talking

743
00:44:26,853 --> 00:44:31,053
Speaker 3: about a regulated market where you could access methamphetamine from

744
00:44:31,053 --> 00:44:35,653
Speaker 3: a you know, from a government sanctioned retailer. I mean,

745
00:44:35,813 --> 00:44:38,373
Speaker 3: is that not absolute insanity?

746
00:44:38,613 --> 00:44:40,733
Speaker 2: It is. They proved it in King's Cross.

747
00:44:41,293 --> 00:44:41,533
Speaker 4: Yeah.

748
00:44:41,533 --> 00:44:45,893
Speaker 3: Well, you look at any anywhere where the decriminalized drugs.

749
00:44:45,533 --> 00:44:48,293
Speaker 2: And they site you know what I'm talking about in

750
00:44:48,693 --> 00:44:50,973
Speaker 2: King's Cross where they where they set up needle rooms

751
00:44:51,173 --> 00:44:55,493
Speaker 2: and you just had to roll along and get your turn.

752
00:44:56,013 --> 00:44:59,693
Speaker 3: And that is that has now become stock standard. That's

753
00:44:59,733 --> 00:45:02,493
Speaker 3: a fundamental of harm reduction. Saying oh, well, people are

754
00:45:02,493 --> 00:45:04,293
Speaker 3: going to use dirty needles, so we should just give

755
00:45:04,333 --> 00:45:06,093
Speaker 3: them clean needles. We should give them a place to

756
00:45:06,093 --> 00:45:08,733
Speaker 3: go and take their drugs. Does it reduce the amount

757
00:45:08,773 --> 00:45:09,173
Speaker 3: drug use?

758
00:45:09,253 --> 00:45:09,293
Speaker 2: No?

759
00:45:09,453 --> 00:45:10,253
Speaker 4: Does it enable it?

760
00:45:10,253 --> 00:45:13,533
Speaker 3: Well, of course it does because it's incredibly permissive and

761
00:45:13,613 --> 00:45:15,693
Speaker 3: at some point you have to acknowledge there will always

762
00:45:15,733 --> 00:45:17,853
Speaker 3: be those that are going to use, but the vast

763
00:45:17,933 --> 00:45:20,333
Speaker 3: majority of people either not going to use or are

764
00:45:20,373 --> 00:45:23,093
Speaker 3: neither one way or the other. So how do you

765
00:45:23,253 --> 00:45:26,973
Speaker 3: change the attitude or the culture? And as I come

766
00:45:27,013 --> 00:45:28,973
Speaker 3: back to the point, what is the point in trying

767
00:45:29,013 --> 00:45:33,173
Speaker 3: to save the planet if we're destroying our own minds

768
00:45:33,213 --> 00:45:35,213
Speaker 3: in the process. You know, there's no point having a

769
00:45:35,213 --> 00:45:37,813
Speaker 3: planet to live on. It's just to me, it's insanity.

770
00:45:37,893 --> 00:45:41,453
Speaker 3: So that's about attitude and culture change, which really comes

771
00:45:41,493 --> 00:45:46,053
Speaker 3: out of removing the ignorance, really comes out of understanding

772
00:45:46,653 --> 00:45:49,813
Speaker 3: what is going on and what the best options are

773
00:45:50,133 --> 00:45:53,413
Speaker 3: in terms of me having the maximum potential out of

774
00:45:53,453 --> 00:45:57,053
Speaker 3: my brain and the ability to have freedom of choice

775
00:45:57,053 --> 00:46:00,653
Speaker 3: in my life. Drugs don't provide freedom of choice. They

776
00:46:00,853 --> 00:46:04,253
Speaker 3: starve an individual of freedom of choice. And anyone listening

777
00:46:04,253 --> 00:46:06,613
Speaker 3: to this podcast that knows anyone that's been involved with

778
00:46:06,613 --> 00:46:10,773
Speaker 3: methamphetamine will know exactly what I'm talking about. It's just

779
00:46:10,813 --> 00:46:13,653
Speaker 3: a shame that it doesn't resonate to leave all nine

780
00:46:13,813 --> 00:46:14,453
Speaker 3: in Wellington.

781
00:46:15,053 --> 00:46:17,173
Speaker 2: America has a problem, has had a big problem for

782
00:46:18,493 --> 00:46:22,373
Speaker 2: a fairly lengthy period of time, and it revolves around

783
00:46:22,733 --> 00:46:28,933
Speaker 2: fentanyl and the importation of it into the United States. Now,

784
00:46:29,773 --> 00:46:33,733
Speaker 2: you can make all sorts of commentaries on what's been

785
00:46:33,773 --> 00:46:36,973
Speaker 2: going on more recently, but my question for you is

786
00:46:37,573 --> 00:46:41,613
Speaker 2: Trump is blowing up boats in international waters that he

787
00:46:41,693 --> 00:46:46,573
Speaker 2: believes and I'm sure that the information is correct, on

788
00:46:46,613 --> 00:46:49,333
Speaker 2: the way to the States with another load of very

789
00:46:49,373 --> 00:46:53,213
Speaker 2: expensive and valuable pentanol. How do you feel about that? Well,

790
00:46:53,293 --> 00:46:55,813
Speaker 2: let me take it a step further. That's dealing with

791
00:46:55,933 --> 00:46:59,453
Speaker 2: something that nobody else has been able to do or

792
00:46:59,533 --> 00:47:03,413
Speaker 2: deal with and just not paid it, in fact, not

793
00:47:03,493 --> 00:47:09,413
Speaker 2: paid attention to it. For any number of presidential whoever

794
00:47:09,413 --> 00:47:12,653
Speaker 2: it's been, they just say, let them do it, so

795
00:47:12,773 --> 00:47:16,413
Speaker 2: it seems, and if they if they, if they die,

796
00:47:16,533 --> 00:47:19,213
Speaker 2: then they die and something it's up to them. That's

797
00:47:19,213 --> 00:47:23,253
Speaker 2: called freedom. I've even heard that said it's freedom. I

798
00:47:23,253 --> 00:47:25,933
Speaker 2: don't agree with that at all. I think that what

799
00:47:26,013 --> 00:47:29,893
Speaker 2: you need to do is take very affirmative action against

800
00:47:29,933 --> 00:47:33,653
Speaker 2: something like this when it gets to this level, phentanyl

801
00:47:33,933 --> 00:47:41,493
Speaker 2: or methamphetamine, and treat it very seriously. Do you think

802
00:47:42,013 --> 00:47:46,733
Speaker 2: that there is an argument for dealing with importation through

803
00:47:46,733 --> 00:47:48,733
Speaker 2: the Pacific in a similar manner?

804
00:47:49,093 --> 00:47:50,773
Speaker 4: Well, I don't.

805
00:47:50,853 --> 00:47:54,853
Speaker 3: I don't see anyone having the antestinal fortitude that Trump

806
00:47:54,933 --> 00:47:57,373
Speaker 3: has to blow up traffickers.

807
00:47:58,213 --> 00:48:00,453
Speaker 2: Well, let's not worry about whether they do or they don't.

808
00:48:00,533 --> 00:48:02,293
Speaker 2: Would it be an appropriate thing to do?

809
00:48:02,813 --> 00:48:03,053
Speaker 4: Don't?

810
00:48:03,253 --> 00:48:05,293
Speaker 3: I don't think so, Although I don't certainly don't lose

811
00:48:05,333 --> 00:48:09,813
Speaker 3: any sleep over what he's doing there because they are trafficking,

812
00:48:10,013 --> 00:48:13,333
Speaker 3: and they are trafficking something that will kill hundreds and

813
00:48:13,373 --> 00:48:19,413
Speaker 3: thousands of US citizens. But the issue really comes back,

814
00:48:19,733 --> 00:48:22,013
Speaker 3: does that stop the problem or do they just find

815
00:48:22,053 --> 00:48:24,573
Speaker 3: another way, or do they run more boats and they

816
00:48:24,653 --> 00:48:26,453
Speaker 3: might lose a few, but they'll get a few more

817
00:48:26,493 --> 00:48:29,573
Speaker 3: through because the demand is ultimately still driving the problem,

818
00:48:30,253 --> 00:48:33,253
Speaker 3: and if you really want to tackle the problem, you've

819
00:48:33,253 --> 00:48:35,493
Speaker 3: got to tackle it at the demanding at the same

820
00:48:35,533 --> 00:48:39,013
Speaker 3: time as you're sending some fairly clear disincentives to be

821
00:48:39,093 --> 00:48:44,493
Speaker 3: trafficking the stuff. The Pacific Islands are absolutely being decimated

822
00:48:44,493 --> 00:48:48,853
Speaker 3: at the moment by cartels that are introducing methamphetamine. They're

823
00:48:48,853 --> 00:48:51,773
Speaker 3: trapping people in it by getting them hooked then they

824
00:48:51,813 --> 00:48:54,693
Speaker 3: can own them. And there is a lot of dark

825
00:48:54,733 --> 00:48:57,253
Speaker 3: stuff going on in the islands. It's ripping through there

826
00:48:57,293 --> 00:48:57,733
Speaker 3: at the moment.

827
00:48:58,253 --> 00:49:01,613
Speaker 2: I've heard the same. Can you be more specific, more

828
00:49:01,653 --> 00:49:05,733
Speaker 2: specific about the Pacific about what they're doing and how

829
00:49:05,733 --> 00:49:10,333
Speaker 2: they're doing it and what the results are. Well, the

830
00:49:10,493 --> 00:49:15,493
Speaker 2: typical sorry, Fiji is the prime example that I'm aware of.

831
00:49:16,133 --> 00:49:18,693
Speaker 2: What are the Fijians doing? What's the government doing about.

832
00:49:18,893 --> 00:49:20,693
Speaker 3: Well, they don't really know what to do about it,

833
00:49:20,813 --> 00:49:25,933
Speaker 3: and it's it's corrupting, you know, throughout government circles as

834
00:49:25,973 --> 00:49:29,173
Speaker 3: well as is quite common because there's large volumes of

835
00:49:29,173 --> 00:49:35,013
Speaker 3: money involved. There's child prostitution going on. So typically what

836
00:49:35,053 --> 00:49:38,053
Speaker 3: they'll do is they'll get people introduced into using the drug,

837
00:49:38,093 --> 00:49:42,133
Speaker 3: they'll get hooked, and then their addiction becomes a driver

838
00:49:42,333 --> 00:49:45,853
Speaker 3: for them to start committing the sort of crime or

839
00:49:45,933 --> 00:49:51,573
Speaker 3: behavior that that the cartels ultimately want to be able to. Okay,

840
00:49:51,653 --> 00:49:55,933
Speaker 3: well we'll look after you, but what we're we're going

841
00:49:55,933 --> 00:49:58,053
Speaker 3: to need is a plantation out the back of your

842
00:49:58,093 --> 00:50:00,973
Speaker 3: farm where we can park our methamphetamine as it's being

843
00:50:00,973 --> 00:50:04,333
Speaker 3: transited through and shipped, for example. So there's lots of

844
00:50:04,373 --> 00:50:07,453
Speaker 3: little examples of that going on, so you can you

845
00:50:07,453 --> 00:50:11,893
Speaker 3: can capture people literally using the drug and then secure

846
00:50:11,933 --> 00:50:17,453
Speaker 3: their use and their services in the in the transmission

847
00:50:17,493 --> 00:50:21,253
Speaker 3: of their drug throughout from the Pacific into the into

848
00:50:21,293 --> 00:50:24,653
Speaker 3: the Australia and into New Zealand. So we used to

849
00:50:24,733 --> 00:50:28,813
Speaker 3: be a stop off area ourselves, but now we're an endpoint.

850
00:50:28,853 --> 00:50:30,533
Speaker 4: We're a destination now because.

851
00:50:30,333 --> 00:50:33,373
Speaker 2: We're such big users, so we're a target.

852
00:50:33,733 --> 00:50:36,533
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well let's change because we pay We still

853
00:50:36,533 --> 00:50:38,413
Speaker 3: pay some of the highest prices in the world, although

854
00:50:38,413 --> 00:50:40,853
Speaker 3: it's a lot less than it used to be. So

855
00:50:41,413 --> 00:50:45,013
Speaker 3: and you've got a highly addicted population, so why wouldn't

856
00:50:45,053 --> 00:50:46,373
Speaker 3: you take the time to send it down here?

857
00:50:46,653 --> 00:50:49,253
Speaker 2: What do you say, where we've got a highly addicted population,

858
00:50:49,373 --> 00:50:50,133
Speaker 2: give me a figure.

859
00:50:51,373 --> 00:50:56,573
Speaker 3: Well, that's almost impossible to say. But because you know,

860
00:50:56,573 --> 00:51:00,653
Speaker 3: people don't readily sort of participate in surveys talking about

861
00:51:00,693 --> 00:51:03,573
Speaker 3: their methamfetamine use, you can only look at the wastewater sampling,

862
00:51:03,613 --> 00:51:09,493
Speaker 3: for example, or the levels of into so people don't

863
00:51:09,533 --> 00:51:12,933
Speaker 3: submite supply commodities to areas where there's no demand. And

864
00:51:13,013 --> 00:51:16,213
Speaker 3: if you look at over the last ten to fifteen years,

865
00:51:16,613 --> 00:51:21,693
Speaker 3: the amount of interdiction at the border has increased steadily.

866
00:51:21,733 --> 00:51:26,733
Speaker 3: You get huge shipments now that are being intercepted, which

867
00:51:26,773 --> 00:51:29,933
Speaker 3: means I don't know how much gets through. Maybe you know,

868
00:51:30,253 --> 00:51:34,093
Speaker 3: maybe ten percent of what comes in gets found. So

869
00:51:34,333 --> 00:51:37,613
Speaker 3: if you see the supply being intercepted rising, and you

870
00:51:37,653 --> 00:51:41,813
Speaker 3: see the wastewater levels rising, they've doubled last year, for example,

871
00:51:42,213 --> 00:51:45,453
Speaker 3: that says a lot more of your population are addicted.

872
00:51:45,493 --> 00:51:48,653
Speaker 3: How much I'd really be guessing?

873
00:51:48,733 --> 00:51:51,853
Speaker 2: I couldn't say, all right, where is that happening? Norsefully,

874
00:51:51,933 --> 00:51:53,333
Speaker 2: do just my guess for a start.

875
00:51:53,693 --> 00:51:59,413
Speaker 3: Well, Northland had a tripling of that wastewater test or

876
00:51:59,493 --> 00:52:04,053
Speaker 3: some else. Oh everywhere in New Zealand. I don't see

877
00:52:04,093 --> 00:52:06,733
Speaker 3: anywhere that's immune to it. I traveled all around New

878
00:52:06,813 --> 00:52:10,653
Speaker 3: Zealand speaking you know, anywhere from Gore to Kaitai, and

879
00:52:11,373 --> 00:52:13,893
Speaker 3: some areas are just more ignorant of it than others.

880
00:52:14,333 --> 00:52:17,573
Speaker 3: But the usage is I don't see any particular pockets

881
00:52:17,613 --> 00:52:22,853
Speaker 3: where it's immune, and some areas it's very, very entrenched,

882
00:52:23,013 --> 00:52:25,253
Speaker 3: and those will be the sort of areas we typically

883
00:52:25,293 --> 00:52:25,573
Speaker 3: see a.

884
00:52:25,573 --> 00:52:27,693
Speaker 4: Lot more violence, a lot more alcohol abuse.

885
00:52:28,813 --> 00:52:32,133
Speaker 3: You know, wherever there's a home for that, there's the

886
00:52:32,613 --> 00:52:33,893
Speaker 3: myth will be present as well.

887
00:52:34,373 --> 00:52:36,213
Speaker 4: But I mean, look, we've seen plenty of.

888
00:52:36,133 --> 00:52:39,613
Speaker 3: It in you know, Remy era and you know some

889
00:52:39,813 --> 00:52:42,853
Speaker 3: of the high streets in Auckland. It's not as I say,

890
00:52:42,893 --> 00:52:44,693
Speaker 3: it's not no one's immune.

891
00:52:45,293 --> 00:52:46,213
Speaker 2: Is it still like that?

892
00:52:47,813 --> 00:52:49,053
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't.

893
00:52:48,813 --> 00:52:51,973
Speaker 3: Think anything's changed other than there's more of it and

894
00:52:52,013 --> 00:52:54,653
Speaker 3: it doesn't make it headlines as much because it's sort

895
00:52:54,693 --> 00:52:55,413
Speaker 3: of commonplace.

896
00:52:55,453 --> 00:52:57,333
Speaker 4: So you know, when it bleeds, it leads in.

897
00:52:58,453 --> 00:53:00,493
Speaker 3: This has been bleeding for a long time, so maybe

898
00:53:00,493 --> 00:53:04,333
Speaker 3: it's not so so sexy to cover anymore. But but

899
00:53:04,413 --> 00:53:06,893
Speaker 3: this is one of the problems is that at the

900
00:53:06,973 --> 00:53:11,733
Speaker 3: highest end, So if you look at supply reduction, what

901
00:53:11,773 --> 00:53:15,733
Speaker 3: are the two things that in my view that suppliers

902
00:53:15,853 --> 00:53:18,613
Speaker 3: in this area and come from all walks of life.

903
00:53:18,893 --> 00:53:22,053
Speaker 3: They'll be business people. They're not just gangs. People sort

904
00:53:22,053 --> 00:53:24,053
Speaker 3: of think it's just the gangs. Well, the gangs are

905
00:53:24,093 --> 00:53:27,093
Speaker 3: a big part of the dealing circuit, but they rely

906
00:53:27,173 --> 00:53:28,133
Speaker 3: on a lot of people to.

907
00:53:28,133 --> 00:53:29,293
Speaker 4: Launder a lot of money.

908
00:53:29,453 --> 00:53:33,693
Speaker 3: They rely on you know, there's big dollars involved in it,

909
00:53:33,853 --> 00:53:36,733
Speaker 3: millions and millions and millions of dollars. So it reaches

910
00:53:36,813 --> 00:53:40,053
Speaker 3: parts of society that you wouldn't necessarily expect, and often

911
00:53:40,093 --> 00:53:44,013
Speaker 3: they're one step removed in terms of any any operations

912
00:53:44,053 --> 00:53:47,173
Speaker 3: to target a syndicate, and the people at the top

913
00:53:47,213 --> 00:53:49,573
Speaker 3: of the tree are often removed. So to me, that's

914
00:53:49,573 --> 00:53:51,133
Speaker 3: where you have to put a lot of new effort

915
00:53:51,253 --> 00:53:54,253
Speaker 3: and resources to get to those people.

916
00:53:54,333 --> 00:53:55,453
Speaker 4: And those people.

917
00:53:56,693 --> 00:54:01,493
Speaker 3: The penalty for methamphetamine supply manufacturer's life imprisonment, but people

918
00:54:01,533 --> 00:54:03,773
Speaker 3: don't go away for life. But if you really want

919
00:54:03,813 --> 00:54:08,373
Speaker 3: to send a clear message, you know, equivalent to the

920
00:54:08,413 --> 00:54:12,493
Speaker 3: Trump blowing up the trafficking boats type message, then people

921
00:54:12,573 --> 00:54:15,133
Speaker 3: at the highest end of this should be going to

922
00:54:15,173 --> 00:54:17,253
Speaker 3: prison at the age of forty and not coming out

923
00:54:17,373 --> 00:54:19,973
Speaker 3: until they're seventy or eighty. In my view, it shouldn't

924
00:54:20,013 --> 00:54:23,893
Speaker 3: be you know, basically, serve seven eighteen years and then

925
00:54:23,893 --> 00:54:29,773
Speaker 3: you're out, and we should not be stopping at In

926
00:54:29,853 --> 00:54:32,613
Speaker 3: terms of the proceeds of crime, everything that they have

927
00:54:32,693 --> 00:54:37,213
Speaker 3: that's an asset, whether it be cash or asset in

928
00:54:37,333 --> 00:54:41,053
Speaker 3: and of itself, should be taken and they should only

929
00:54:41,093 --> 00:54:42,773
Speaker 3: get it back if they can show that it's been

930
00:54:43,013 --> 00:54:46,693
Speaker 3: attained through legitimate means. In other words, there's two things

931
00:54:46,693 --> 00:54:50,653
Speaker 3: that these guys care about is their liberty and their money.

932
00:54:51,573 --> 00:54:54,613
Speaker 3: And it's no point in having money because a lot

933
00:54:54,613 --> 00:54:56,493
Speaker 3: of them think, well, I'll take the gamble, but i'll

934
00:54:56,493 --> 00:54:58,013
Speaker 3: come out to that ten million dollars have.

935
00:54:57,973 --> 00:55:01,013
Speaker 4: Got buried out in the paddock, So that's not a problem.

936
00:55:01,893 --> 00:55:05,013
Speaker 3: Take away their liberty, take away their money, and you've

937
00:55:05,053 --> 00:55:06,733
Speaker 3: only got to do that with a few people before

938
00:55:06,893 --> 00:55:10,973
Speaker 3: the incentives become well, it's high risk game. But at

939
00:55:10,973 --> 00:55:14,173
Speaker 3: the moment, we just don't. We don't penalize people sufficiently

940
00:55:14,213 --> 00:55:18,213
Speaker 3: at that top end. And we we too, we're too

941
00:55:19,213 --> 00:55:22,653
Speaker 3: we're too soft on taking away money. That is, you know,

942
00:55:22,733 --> 00:55:25,133
Speaker 3: I think there's a thirty thousand dollars limit on proceeds

943
00:55:25,133 --> 00:55:27,853
Speaker 3: of crime. Will Isn't it funny how every Harley Davison

944
00:55:27,893 --> 00:55:30,853
Speaker 3: now is valued at twenty and ninety five dollars.

945
00:55:31,213 --> 00:55:34,173
Speaker 2: You've got to laugh. Let me coach you something. The

946
00:55:34,213 --> 00:55:37,813
Speaker 2: West's commitment to freedom, reason, and true liberalism has never

947
00:55:37,853 --> 00:55:41,293
Speaker 2: been more seriously threatened that it is today by the

948
00:55:41,373 --> 00:55:47,773
Speaker 2: stifling forces of political correctness. These This is referring to

949
00:55:48,693 --> 00:55:51,493
Speaker 2: a book by someone I've mentioned once or twice on

950
00:55:51,733 --> 00:55:56,373
Speaker 2: a couple of podcasts, Gad Sad. Doctor Gad Sad, the

951
00:55:56,413 --> 00:56:00,893
Speaker 2: host of the enormously popular YouTube show The Sad Truth,

952
00:56:01,373 --> 00:56:05,573
Speaker 2: exposes the bad ideas what he calls idea pathogens that

953
00:56:05,653 --> 00:56:10,693
Speaker 2: are killing common sense and rational debate, incubated in our

954
00:56:10,813 --> 00:56:14,493
Speaker 2: universities and spread through the tyranny of political correctness. These

955
00:56:14,533 --> 00:56:18,373
Speaker 2: ideas are endangering our most basic freedoms, including freedom of

956
00:56:18,413 --> 00:56:21,653
Speaker 2: thought and speech. Does that bring true at all to

957
00:56:21,693 --> 00:56:24,773
Speaker 2: You couldn't agree more, then I'll give you a little more.

958
00:56:25,133 --> 00:56:27,973
Speaker 2: The danger is gray. But as doctor Sard shows, politically

959
00:56:27,973 --> 00:56:31,693
Speaker 2: correct dogma is riddled with logical fallacies. We have powerful

960
00:56:31,733 --> 00:56:35,173
Speaker 2: weapons to fight back with if we have the courage

961
00:56:35,293 --> 00:56:37,573
Speaker 2: to use them. And that's really what I was what

962
00:56:37,653 --> 00:56:40,413
Speaker 2: I was striving at. If we have the courage to

963
00:56:41,053 --> 00:56:45,693
Speaker 2: use them, intriguingly. I bought that book earlier this year,

964
00:56:46,373 --> 00:56:49,173
Speaker 2: and three days ago I do a bit of listening

965
00:56:49,253 --> 00:56:52,653
Speaker 2: around in the States, and three days ago came across

966
00:56:53,093 --> 00:56:56,413
Speaker 2: a talk show that he just turned up on and

967
00:56:56,453 --> 00:56:59,013
Speaker 2: I never heard him speak, so I wanted to hear it,

968
00:56:59,573 --> 00:57:02,373
Speaker 2: and by George, he was good. I want him on

969
00:57:02,493 --> 00:57:08,493
Speaker 2: this podcast. We don't have the courage to take the

970
00:57:08,773 --> 00:57:13,613
Speaker 2: action it takes and needs to turn much of what

971
00:57:13,653 --> 00:57:16,813
Speaker 2: we know is wrong about we don't or should I

972
00:57:16,853 --> 00:57:19,053
Speaker 2: say around just to be clear, yeah, well we.

973
00:57:18,973 --> 00:57:21,533
Speaker 3: Don't, not just in this in this area, but in

974
00:57:21,613 --> 00:57:26,133
Speaker 3: many areas where there's social decay, has A has a

975
00:57:26,133 --> 00:57:30,813
Speaker 3: big outreach. There is a distinct lack of political courage

976
00:57:30,813 --> 00:57:32,293
Speaker 3: in particular in my view.

977
00:57:33,173 --> 00:57:34,973
Speaker 4: And look, if.

978
00:57:34,813 --> 00:57:36,293
Speaker 3: You're going to make an omelet, you've got to break

979
00:57:36,293 --> 00:57:39,653
Speaker 3: a few eggs. But far too many politicians are trying

980
00:57:39,693 --> 00:57:42,773
Speaker 3: to make omelets without breaking eggs, and you can't. You

981
00:57:42,933 --> 00:57:46,093
Speaker 3: just simply cannot make the omelet without breaking the egg.

982
00:57:46,773 --> 00:57:49,813
Speaker 3: But what I don't think they necessarily recognize is there

983
00:57:49,813 --> 00:57:52,453
Speaker 3: are plenty of people out there who want them to

984
00:57:52,493 --> 00:57:55,693
Speaker 3: do just that. And you know, the rise and rise

985
00:57:56,013 --> 00:57:58,693
Speaker 3: of the Trump factor, I guess gives you some sense

986
00:57:58,733 --> 00:58:02,253
Speaker 3: that as much as he's pilloried by the left for

987
00:58:02,293 --> 00:58:05,893
Speaker 3: what good reason or bad, it doesn't really matter what

988
00:58:06,733 --> 00:58:09,413
Speaker 3: he has done to politics is actually said, you know what,

989
00:58:09,453 --> 00:58:11,253
Speaker 3: there's a there's a lot of people out there that

990
00:58:11,333 --> 00:58:16,293
Speaker 3: recognize the complete lack of political spine in Western society

991
00:58:17,013 --> 00:58:20,893
Speaker 3: is absolutely eroding the values that we share and that

992
00:58:21,053 --> 00:58:23,533
Speaker 3: and that we should that people have fought and died

993
00:58:23,613 --> 00:58:26,973
Speaker 3: for that we're now giving up. And now that's it's

994
00:58:27,013 --> 00:58:29,613
Speaker 3: a broader subject, but it all comes down to there

995
00:58:29,733 --> 00:58:33,813
Speaker 3: is a distinct lack of political courage to do what

996
00:58:34,013 --> 00:58:38,533
Speaker 3: ultimately the people really demand of leaders, to have courage

997
00:58:38,573 --> 00:58:41,853
Speaker 3: to stand up, to have fortitude and to accept sometimes

998
00:58:42,173 --> 00:58:44,813
Speaker 3: you will make some people unhappy in the greater and

999
00:58:44,893 --> 00:58:48,293
Speaker 3: the pursuit of the greater good, because medicine sometimes is

1000
00:58:48,293 --> 00:58:48,853
Speaker 3: a bit bitter.

1001
00:58:49,493 --> 00:58:54,493
Speaker 2: Well, you've just opened the door to another another alleyway.

1002
00:58:55,173 --> 00:59:00,373
Speaker 2: That is that we and you'll hear people say, doesn't

1003
00:59:00,413 --> 00:59:03,973
Speaker 2: mean me I'm not included, but that we the voter

1004
00:59:04,693 --> 00:59:10,493
Speaker 2: doesn't have the courage to shall we say, gamble to

1005
00:59:10,573 --> 00:59:15,053
Speaker 2: some degree with looking for an outcome. And what I

1006
00:59:15,093 --> 00:59:17,893
Speaker 2: mean by that is this idea that you vote for

1007
00:59:18,173 --> 00:59:21,213
Speaker 2: you vote for somebody because the other team's worse, or

1008
00:59:21,293 --> 00:59:24,893
Speaker 2: you vote for somebody because, well, I like what they

1009
00:59:24,933 --> 00:59:26,773
Speaker 2: do there, but I don't like what they do there,

1010
00:59:27,933 --> 00:59:30,893
Speaker 2: and therefore they justify to themselves because they don't want to.

1011
00:59:31,933 --> 00:59:35,613
Speaker 2: In most cases, people don't want to change course, and

1012
00:59:35,653 --> 00:59:39,133
Speaker 2: that is self defeating. If you've got if you've got

1013
00:59:39,133 --> 00:59:44,973
Speaker 2: a party in power that is failing in some very

1014
00:59:45,013 --> 00:59:48,573
Speaker 2: important areas like where you deal, and they won't pick

1015
00:59:48,653 --> 00:59:51,173
Speaker 2: up their game, then they deserve to be punished.

1016
00:59:52,253 --> 00:59:55,973
Speaker 3: They do well you've just described as the core of

1017
00:59:56,013 --> 00:59:58,653
Speaker 3: the failings of our MMP.

1018
00:59:59,893 --> 01:00:00,373
Speaker 4: Structure.

1019
01:00:00,893 --> 01:00:04,373
Speaker 3: And I know you've discussed this many times on the podcast,

1020
01:00:04,453 --> 01:00:08,133
Speaker 3: and the sort of sugar hit, the three years sugarheit

1021
01:00:08,173 --> 01:00:10,853
Speaker 3: of what's in it for me? And the way in

1022
01:00:10,933 --> 01:00:15,853
Speaker 3: which political parties over time have essentially adopted the approach

1023
01:00:16,053 --> 01:00:19,733
Speaker 3: to winning the center vote through that sugar hit. And

1024
01:00:19,773 --> 01:00:22,613
Speaker 3: then once you get enough of that going on and

1025
01:00:22,693 --> 01:00:25,773
Speaker 3: an expectation exists there, it's very hard to strip back.

1026
01:00:26,413 --> 01:00:30,093
Speaker 3: And when you can't strip back stuff that ultimately might

1027
01:00:30,133 --> 01:00:33,453
Speaker 3: be a short term fix or a short term hit,

1028
01:00:33,653 --> 01:00:37,893
Speaker 3: but it has a long term negative implication. That's where

1029
01:00:37,893 --> 01:00:41,853
Speaker 3: we're at now. That's why where the cupboards bear. Notwithstanding

1030
01:00:41,893 --> 01:00:44,453
Speaker 3: the fact that during COVID and the use of fear

1031
01:00:44,533 --> 01:00:49,293
Speaker 3: to essentially manipulate the voter and send us down a

1032
01:00:49,373 --> 01:00:55,413
Speaker 3: highly destructive path in terms of our economic framework, put

1033
01:00:55,413 --> 01:00:58,933
Speaker 3: that to one side, MP has still seen us heading

1034
01:00:58,973 --> 01:01:02,413
Speaker 3: down a very bad path. And we are now a

1035
01:01:02,453 --> 01:01:05,293
Speaker 3: population of people that largely say, well, what's in it

1036
01:01:05,333 --> 01:01:06,493
Speaker 3: for me and.

1037
01:01:06,413 --> 01:01:07,613
Speaker 4: I'll give you my vote?

1038
01:01:07,653 --> 01:01:10,933
Speaker 3: And we we should not and cannot afford to be

1039
01:01:11,053 --> 01:01:14,293
Speaker 3: thinking that way unless we want to keep exporting all

1040
01:01:14,333 --> 01:01:19,133
Speaker 3: of the quality people, the brain power, and the initiative

1041
01:01:19,293 --> 01:01:24,413
Speaker 3: and the skills offshore where the other opportunities are, because

1042
01:01:24,453 --> 01:01:29,453
Speaker 3: we're diminishing our power as a country, as an economy,

1043
01:01:29,493 --> 01:01:34,853
Speaker 3: as a people by taking the approach that it's what's

1044
01:01:34,893 --> 01:01:37,653
Speaker 3: in it for me, And it's not what's in it

1045
01:01:37,693 --> 01:01:40,613
Speaker 3: for me, it's where is what is the direction of

1046
01:01:40,653 --> 01:01:44,773
Speaker 3: the country in which direction does it need to head?

1047
01:01:45,213 --> 01:01:47,653
Speaker 3: And that's what, in my view, should be asking ourselves.

1048
01:01:48,013 --> 01:01:49,653
Speaker 3: But then you've got to find the leaders that are

1049
01:01:49,653 --> 01:01:52,013
Speaker 3: willing to actually make the decisions to take us in

1050
01:01:52,053 --> 01:01:55,133
Speaker 3: that direction. And that direction will be uncomfortable for some people,

1051
01:01:55,173 --> 01:01:57,893
Speaker 3: because we need to change from the path that we're

1052
01:01:57,933 --> 01:02:00,133
Speaker 3: on and that means taking away some of the sugar

1053
01:02:00,213 --> 01:02:03,413
Speaker 3: hit and I'm not sure as a population.

1054
01:02:03,013 --> 01:02:05,973
Speaker 4: We're really we're really up to that anymore.

1055
01:02:06,013 --> 01:02:09,053
Speaker 3: So we can blame a lack of political current, but

1056
01:02:09,133 --> 01:02:10,533
Speaker 3: I think the first thing we need to do is

1057
01:02:10,533 --> 01:02:12,533
Speaker 3: take a damn good look at ourselves in the mirror

1058
01:02:12,573 --> 01:02:15,253
Speaker 3: and go But am I really doing what's in the

1059
01:02:15,253 --> 01:02:17,813
Speaker 3: best interests of the direction of this country or the

1060
01:02:17,853 --> 01:02:21,493
Speaker 3: best interests of the direction of my own back pocket?

1061
01:02:22,253 --> 01:02:24,893
Speaker 3: Because it seems to me that we do a lot

1062
01:02:24,893 --> 01:02:25,453
Speaker 3: of the latter.

1063
01:02:25,773 --> 01:02:27,293
Speaker 2: I think you described that very well.

1064
01:02:27,893 --> 01:02:28,133
Speaker 4: Well.

1065
01:02:28,133 --> 01:02:32,733
Speaker 3: It's a challenging situation because obviously we're all self interested,

1066
01:02:33,453 --> 01:02:37,253
Speaker 3: but ultimately there's a relationship between the voter and those

1067
01:02:37,293 --> 01:02:40,893
Speaker 3: who get voted in. And if the people were willing

1068
01:02:40,933 --> 01:02:45,693
Speaker 3: to stand up and say, you know what, my country

1069
01:02:45,773 --> 01:02:48,573
Speaker 3: needs to head in a particular direction, and enough of

1070
01:02:48,613 --> 01:02:51,333
Speaker 3: us were saying that, but that's not a direction that

1071
01:02:51,453 --> 01:02:54,013
Speaker 3: is really just simply about my self interest.

1072
01:02:54,093 --> 01:02:57,973
Speaker 2: It's interesting, you know, because there are while you were

1073
01:02:57,973 --> 01:03:01,293
Speaker 2: talking just then, I was thinking of three or four

1074
01:03:01,333 --> 01:03:05,373
Speaker 2: people with whom I'm familiar, who are of an age

1075
01:03:05,533 --> 01:03:08,853
Speaker 2: and an attitude that would serve this country well. But

1076
01:03:08,853 --> 01:03:13,053
Speaker 2: they're unlikely to do it simply because of what they

1077
01:03:13,093 --> 01:03:15,533
Speaker 2: would be put through if they put their hand up.

1078
01:03:16,533 --> 01:03:19,333
Speaker 2: You can say that that's lack of courage by the

1079
01:03:19,373 --> 01:03:21,733
Speaker 2: same token, thinking one or two of them, it's not

1080
01:03:21,853 --> 01:03:25,893
Speaker 2: lack of courage, it's actually using their brain power because

1081
01:03:25,893 --> 01:03:32,053
Speaker 2: they know how stupid the whole system's got. Fair enough, Yeah,

1082
01:03:32,093 --> 01:03:32,813
Speaker 2: well it is a.

1083
01:03:32,813 --> 01:03:33,453
Speaker 4: Very fair comment.

1084
01:03:33,493 --> 01:03:36,373
Speaker 3: And there's a lot of people that don't, I guess,

1085
01:03:36,493 --> 01:03:38,493
Speaker 3: put their hands up in terms of any sort of

1086
01:03:38,493 --> 01:03:43,373
Speaker 3: political leadership because of exactly that. It's like, you know,

1087
01:03:43,413 --> 01:03:46,693
Speaker 3: you're swimming against a tide, and for some people it's not.

1088
01:03:46,973 --> 01:03:49,693
Speaker 3: I wouldn't say it's necessarily a lack of courage. Well,

1089
01:03:50,853 --> 01:03:53,173
Speaker 3: why wouldn't want to swim against that tide when I'm

1090
01:03:53,173 --> 01:03:57,253
Speaker 3: not a hiding to nothing Because there are there's so

1091
01:03:57,333 --> 01:04:03,093
Speaker 3: many fundamental structural issues that are wrong. You've got to

1092
01:04:03,133 --> 01:04:06,973
Speaker 3: swim against a lot of tide to write that. And

1093
01:04:07,173 --> 01:04:10,573
Speaker 3: not everyone has that clination, or they just don't. They

1094
01:04:10,573 --> 01:04:12,213
Speaker 3: don't see it as an attractive option.

1095
01:04:12,453 --> 01:04:16,333
Speaker 2: You had a few years in the house, too late

1096
01:04:16,373 --> 01:04:16,853
Speaker 2: to go back.

1097
01:04:19,293 --> 01:04:21,013
Speaker 4: I don't know if I'd survive in that place.

1098
01:04:21,053 --> 01:04:29,733
Speaker 3: Now it's become wokery has become so entrenched and everything

1099
01:04:29,773 --> 01:04:33,413
Speaker 3: that seems to drive out of government these days. It's unbelievable.

1100
01:04:34,253 --> 01:04:37,613
Speaker 3: But I mean, my motivations for being involved in that

1101
01:04:37,693 --> 01:04:42,733
Speaker 3: were only ever because I felt I could contribute something.

1102
01:04:42,453 --> 01:04:45,533
Speaker 3: Having lived at the bottom of the cliff and know

1103
01:04:45,613 --> 01:04:47,813
Speaker 3: what happens, know what falls over the cliff and the

1104
01:04:47,853 --> 01:04:51,133
Speaker 3: implications of it, you get a better sense of how

1105
01:04:51,133 --> 01:04:52,613
Speaker 3: you can build a fence at the top of the

1106
01:04:52,613 --> 01:04:55,413
Speaker 3: cliff and what needs to change in a policy sense.

1107
01:04:55,453 --> 01:04:58,413
Speaker 3: So I had some lived in real will experience that

1108
01:04:58,493 --> 01:05:02,813
Speaker 3: I thought could translate well into the policy making, because

1109
01:05:02,893 --> 01:05:06,013
Speaker 3: ultimately government is that's what you expect. The government is

1110
01:05:06,053 --> 01:05:10,333
Speaker 3: to ensure that all your infrastructure exists within community, to

1111
01:05:10,413 --> 01:05:15,973
Speaker 3: have a well educated, healthy population that has opportunity, and

1112
01:05:17,093 --> 01:05:20,253
Speaker 3: the government is responsible for ensuring that resources exist for

1113
01:05:20,533 --> 01:05:24,293
Speaker 3: those fundamentals. And then over and above that ensure that

1114
01:05:24,333 --> 01:05:29,733
Speaker 3: an environment exists to attract and retain and develop, you know,

1115
01:05:29,773 --> 01:05:33,693
Speaker 3: people that can go out there and make wealth, create jobs,

1116
01:05:33,773 --> 01:05:37,413
Speaker 3: create opportunities, et cetera, et cetera. But when you get there,

1117
01:05:37,493 --> 01:05:42,093
Speaker 3: you stet. You very quickly understand that in that machine

1118
01:05:42,213 --> 01:05:47,133
Speaker 3: you have to you have to conform to to particularly

1119
01:05:47,133 --> 01:05:50,733
Speaker 3: in an MMP environment to the sort of the party approach,

1120
01:05:51,093 --> 01:05:56,013
Speaker 3: the mechanics of parliament grind people up very very quickly

1121
01:05:56,533 --> 01:06:00,213
Speaker 3: becomes quite disparating. Not that that ever puts you off,

1122
01:06:00,253 --> 01:06:02,973
Speaker 3: but I mean I was had some certainly had some

1123
01:06:03,013 --> 01:06:07,013
Speaker 3: particular knowledge in this Druggierrea for example, and even inside

1124
01:06:07,013 --> 01:06:10,053
Speaker 3: the tent, arguably it's to make change inside the tenth

1125
01:06:10,053 --> 01:06:12,973
Speaker 3: than it is outside the tenth. So you really need

1126
01:06:13,173 --> 01:06:15,733
Speaker 3: to have leavers in the right place, and you only

1127
01:06:15,773 --> 01:06:18,693
Speaker 3: get that if you're at the at the highest levels,

1128
01:06:18,973 --> 01:06:24,053
Speaker 3: and you know, arguably someone like John Key, Bill English,

1129
01:06:24,093 --> 01:06:26,933
Speaker 3: Stephen Joyce, you know, it was kind of a purple

1130
01:06:26,973 --> 01:06:31,573
Speaker 3: patch in recent political years because they had the right

1131
01:06:31,653 --> 01:06:35,293
Speaker 3: mindset and the approach and they were able to pull

1132
01:06:35,293 --> 01:06:36,013
Speaker 3: a few leavers.

1133
01:06:37,213 --> 01:06:39,653
Speaker 4: Not everything that happened there was stuff that I would.

1134
01:06:39,413 --> 01:06:42,373
Speaker 3: Necessarily agree with because I think I think we just

1135
01:06:43,333 --> 01:06:45,533
Speaker 3: went further down the same road of the sugar hit,

1136
01:06:45,613 --> 01:06:49,893
Speaker 3: if you like. But there's very few opportunities I think

1137
01:06:49,933 --> 01:06:56,893
Speaker 3: for people in positions of power to execute substantial change.

1138
01:06:57,133 --> 01:06:59,413
Speaker 3: And we're at a stage now, I think where we

1139
01:06:59,493 --> 01:07:02,293
Speaker 3: need substantial direction change in the way we're going as

1140
01:07:02,333 --> 01:07:02,813
Speaker 3: a country.

1141
01:07:03,333 --> 01:07:04,413
Speaker 4: Where that's going to come from.

1142
01:07:04,493 --> 01:07:09,853
Speaker 3: I don't see the political will courage direction existing there

1143
01:07:10,013 --> 01:07:14,573
Speaker 3: now myself, but change will be required at some point.

1144
01:07:14,813 --> 01:07:18,733
Speaker 2: It will. It'll be interesting to see when maybe maybe

1145
01:07:18,893 --> 01:07:24,053
Speaker 2: we'll be lucky. Now, since we talked about your earlier,

1146
01:07:24,213 --> 01:07:27,893
Speaker 2: earlier career, so let's wind this up with your present situation.

1147
01:07:28,093 --> 01:07:34,533
Speaker 2: You established a business in twenty nineteen, private investigations business.

1148
01:07:35,853 --> 01:07:38,853
Speaker 2: You've got a team of investigators working for you, and

1149
01:07:38,893 --> 01:07:45,453
Speaker 2: this is based of course in Northland whereabout.

1150
01:07:43,573 --> 01:07:45,853
Speaker 4: We're at a farre rail though we do travel all

1151
01:07:45,853 --> 01:07:47,453
Speaker 4: over the country doing our work.

1152
01:07:47,493 --> 01:07:51,373
Speaker 3: It's predominantly criminal defense work, which is largely born out

1153
01:07:51,413 --> 01:07:54,373
Speaker 3: of the fact that with changes in the police and resourcing, etc.

1154
01:07:54,733 --> 01:07:58,493
Speaker 3: There's a lot of investigations that aren't done anymore, and

1155
01:07:59,293 --> 01:08:01,613
Speaker 3: that's quite an important thing for a jury when people

1156
01:08:01,653 --> 01:08:08,213
Speaker 3: are facing a criminal charge. So we're a specialist even

1157
01:08:08,213 --> 01:08:12,013
Speaker 3: in gathers all ex detectives and we simply do the

1158
01:08:12,053 --> 01:08:13,573
Speaker 3: same thing as we used to do when we're in

1159
01:08:13,573 --> 01:08:18,653
Speaker 3: the police. We're just gathering that evidence and hoping for

1160
01:08:20,893 --> 01:08:23,173
Speaker 3: juries and judges to be able to make some just

1161
01:08:23,293 --> 01:08:24,813
Speaker 3: outcomes as a consequence of that.

1162
01:08:24,933 --> 01:08:27,653
Speaker 2: So this is my interpretation of what you just said.

1163
01:08:28,013 --> 01:08:33,093
Speaker 2: You're now replacing the police at certain levels of inquiry

1164
01:08:33,173 --> 01:08:33,733
Speaker 2: and pursuit.

1165
01:08:35,013 --> 01:08:40,813
Speaker 3: Sadly, yes, and that's largely because there's a lot of

1166
01:08:40,893 --> 01:08:42,693
Speaker 3: changes have gone on the police the last ten or

1167
01:08:42,733 --> 01:08:46,493
Speaker 3: fifteen years. System changes, and there's a lot of churn

1168
01:08:46,573 --> 01:08:49,133
Speaker 3: and a lot of need to make an arrest and

1169
01:08:49,173 --> 01:08:51,173
Speaker 3: move to the next file, and so the power of

1170
01:08:51,253 --> 01:08:55,493
Speaker 3: arrest becomes a dominant feature over top of the power

1171
01:08:55,493 --> 01:09:00,893
Speaker 3: of investigation. And while you don't necessarily need corroboration to

1172
01:09:02,813 --> 01:09:07,373
Speaker 3: gain convictions in a lot of matters, good investigators ensure

1173
01:09:07,373 --> 01:09:10,613
Speaker 3: that there is a good evidential foundation for a charge

1174
01:09:10,653 --> 01:09:12,413
Speaker 3: to proceed and succeed.

1175
01:09:13,333 --> 01:09:14,893
Speaker 4: A lot of that doesn't happen anymore.

1176
01:09:15,413 --> 01:09:19,093
Speaker 3: And so you know, we're essentially doing exactly the same work,

1177
01:09:19,173 --> 01:09:21,453
Speaker 3: and we may interview ten or fifteen people and the

1178
01:09:21,453 --> 01:09:25,173
Speaker 3: police have interviewed three or four in a particular matter. Well,

1179
01:09:25,373 --> 01:09:27,453
Speaker 3: you know, back in the day, police would have interviewed

1180
01:09:27,493 --> 01:09:29,973
Speaker 3: all of those people. That's not a criticism of the

1181
01:09:29,973 --> 01:09:33,373
Speaker 3: police necessarily, although I think they should come in for

1182
01:09:33,413 --> 01:09:36,653
Speaker 3: some criticism in terms of how they go about business.

1183
01:09:37,413 --> 01:09:43,533
Speaker 3: I think recent events probably highlight that. You think, yeah,

1184
01:09:43,813 --> 01:09:48,053
Speaker 3: but there are definitely some failings in the system, and

1185
01:09:48,133 --> 01:09:51,493
Speaker 3: ultimately who really pays the price for that is you know,

1186
01:09:51,613 --> 01:09:54,933
Speaker 3: New Zealand society. Because if the police aren't thoroughly investigating

1187
01:09:55,933 --> 01:09:59,613
Speaker 3: things and putting things before the court because they are justified,

1188
01:10:00,013 --> 01:10:04,333
Speaker 3: it is a bit of a lottery and I think

1189
01:10:04,333 --> 01:10:07,653
Speaker 3: we're all the lesser for it. So the business se

1190
01:10:08,493 --> 01:10:12,573
Speaker 3: when I got into this PI work. You know, it's

1191
01:10:12,573 --> 01:10:17,013
Speaker 3: obviously very transferable skills from COB but we're not in

1192
01:10:17,053 --> 01:10:19,013
Speaker 3: the business of confirmation.

1193
01:10:20,013 --> 01:10:20,453
Speaker 4: Bias.

1194
01:10:21,173 --> 01:10:24,693
Speaker 3: As defense investigators, we're saying, well, what's the whole picture

1195
01:10:24,733 --> 01:10:27,733
Speaker 3: tell us? Versus what's enough of the picture to get

1196
01:10:27,733 --> 01:10:30,853
Speaker 3: primer facing evidence to lock someone up or to charge them.

1197
01:10:31,813 --> 01:10:34,493
Speaker 3: We're saying, well, okay, well that's what you're saying, but

1198
01:10:34,533 --> 01:10:35,453
Speaker 3: what is the whole picture?

1199
01:10:35,493 --> 01:10:37,373
Speaker 4: Saying? What can we infer from their whole picture?

1200
01:10:37,453 --> 01:10:41,933
Speaker 3: So it's a much more evidence based approach to gathering information.

1201
01:10:42,093 --> 01:10:45,133
Speaker 3: And one of the challenges with police work, I guess

1202
01:10:45,253 --> 01:10:48,253
Speaker 3: is often I'm given a theory or I'm given an accusation,

1203
01:10:48,333 --> 01:10:51,493
Speaker 3: and I'll simply look for evidence to support what I'm

1204
01:10:51,533 --> 01:10:55,213
Speaker 3: being told as distinct from what does the evidence tell me,

1205
01:10:55,333 --> 01:10:57,653
Speaker 3: and as a conclusion of that, I can then charge

1206
01:10:57,773 --> 01:11:00,613
Speaker 3: or not charge, as the case may be, but political

1207
01:11:00,653 --> 01:11:05,413
Speaker 3: correctness runs its mery role in that as well, and

1208
01:11:05,773 --> 01:11:09,533
Speaker 3: there's a lot of people charged simply because people don't

1209
01:11:09,573 --> 01:11:11,573
Speaker 3: want to have to answer questions as to why charges

1210
01:11:11,573 --> 01:11:14,853
Speaker 3: weren't laid. So it's not necessarily justifiable, but that's the

1211
01:11:14,893 --> 01:11:15,933
Speaker 3: system we're now living in.

1212
01:11:16,173 --> 01:11:19,213
Speaker 2: If this the moment's thought, if there was one thing,

1213
01:11:19,933 --> 01:11:24,573
Speaker 2: one thing that you could influence and have altered in

1214
01:11:24,613 --> 01:11:28,933
Speaker 2: the field that concerns you, or even even beyond it

1215
01:11:29,333 --> 01:11:32,373
Speaker 2: in this country, one thing, what would it be? Well,

1216
01:11:32,413 --> 01:11:34,493
Speaker 2: I think my list is probably too long to be one.

1217
01:11:34,893 --> 01:11:37,053
Speaker 2: It's got to be one. I'll put this on hold

1218
01:11:37,093 --> 01:11:40,053
Speaker 2: if you want. Why do you think you need to?

1219
01:11:40,413 --> 01:11:42,253
Speaker 3: I think one of the things that I've seen a

1220
01:11:42,293 --> 01:11:49,053
Speaker 3: lot of that I don't think has has I think

1221
01:11:49,093 --> 01:11:52,053
Speaker 3: has resulted in some very perverse and bad outcomes, is

1222
01:11:52,973 --> 01:11:59,093
Speaker 3: political knee jerk reactions to law making. So I think,

1223
01:11:59,973 --> 01:12:02,653
Speaker 3: and I've done some law making, and I've also been

1224
01:12:02,693 --> 01:12:05,853
Speaker 3: at the receiving end of what bad lawmaking can do

1225
01:12:05,973 --> 01:12:08,133
Speaker 3: in terms of, you know, seeing how that plays out

1226
01:12:09,333 --> 01:12:11,613
Speaker 3: in our role now as private investigators.

1227
01:12:11,613 --> 01:12:16,813
Speaker 4: But when political decisions.

1228
01:12:17,533 --> 01:12:22,773
Speaker 3: That are very much based on knee jerk reactions. It's

1229
01:12:22,853 --> 01:12:26,613
Speaker 3: often a case of the unintended consequence of the law

1230
01:12:26,813 --> 01:12:29,453
Speaker 3: rather than what the law is actually intended to do.

1231
01:12:29,813 --> 01:12:32,093
Speaker 4: And I think we have a lot of law now

1232
01:12:32,893 --> 01:12:33,173
Speaker 4: where the.

1233
01:12:33,253 --> 01:12:36,573
Speaker 3: Unintended consequences are far more dire than the problem they

1234
01:12:36,573 --> 01:12:40,573
Speaker 3: are actually put there to serve. And I think there

1235
01:12:40,653 --> 01:12:43,293
Speaker 3: is a big disconnect between a lot of lawmakers and

1236
01:12:43,333 --> 01:12:47,813
Speaker 3: the reality of what happens when those unintended consequences tend

1237
01:12:47,853 --> 01:12:51,373
Speaker 3: to play out on the street. And that disconnect is

1238
01:12:52,973 --> 01:12:56,733
Speaker 3: it's hard for people to recognize, but it is there.

1239
01:12:56,853 --> 01:12:59,973
Speaker 3: So I would say the one thing that I would

1240
01:13:00,173 --> 01:13:04,373
Speaker 3: would if I could have any change in it, would

1241
01:13:04,413 --> 01:13:11,613
Speaker 3: be it would be that that make political lawmaking for

1242
01:13:11,693 --> 01:13:15,293
Speaker 3: political reasons as distinct for law making because it's in

1243
01:13:15,333 --> 01:13:17,973
Speaker 3: the best interests of improving society.

1244
01:13:18,573 --> 01:13:37,213
Speaker 2: Mike, great, talking to you. Thank you, You're most welcome. Well,

1245
01:13:37,213 --> 01:13:39,733
Speaker 2: here we are for podcasting number three hundred and fourteen,

1246
01:13:39,813 --> 01:13:43,093
Speaker 2: which is the well the final mail room of the

1247
01:13:43,573 --> 01:13:48,333
Speaker 2: year for twenty twenty five. Missus producer high later. Has

1248
01:13:48,333 --> 01:13:49,253
Speaker 2: it gone fast or slow?

1249
01:13:50,053 --> 01:13:52,053
Speaker 5: Bits of it have gone fast, bits of it have

1250
01:13:52,093 --> 01:13:52,733
Speaker 5: gone slowly.

1251
01:13:53,053 --> 01:13:55,053
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I would have life. I suppose I

1252
01:13:55,093 --> 01:13:57,293
Speaker 2: would have said given the same borer answer.

1253
01:13:57,053 --> 01:14:00,973
Speaker 5: Action as with everyone. I'm sure yes.

1254
01:14:01,333 --> 01:14:04,493
Speaker 2: Anyway, we we've got a stack of mail which we've

1255
01:14:04,493 --> 01:14:07,133
Speaker 2: had to carve back a little because there's a bit

1256
01:14:07,173 --> 01:14:10,773
Speaker 2: more than we can handle. But the others can be left,

1257
01:14:10,813 --> 01:14:15,293
Speaker 2: I think for twenty twenty six. Now, would you like

1258
01:14:15,333 --> 01:14:16,173
Speaker 2: to beget yeah?

1259
01:14:16,173 --> 01:14:19,493
Speaker 5: I will Tony says. I was busy cutting firewood today

1260
01:14:19,533 --> 01:14:22,893
Speaker 5: listening to you and William Happer, great podcast, by the way,

1261
01:14:22,933 --> 01:14:26,093
Speaker 5: thank you. I realized that this great guy is in

1262
01:14:26,093 --> 01:14:28,253
Speaker 5: my town and going to talk in about an hour,

1263
01:14:28,293 --> 01:14:31,693
Speaker 5: and couldn't believe my luck. Listening to William, I was thinking,

1264
01:14:32,333 --> 01:14:36,533
Speaker 5: he's all about science and very unusual looking symbols and equations,

1265
01:14:36,573 --> 01:14:38,893
Speaker 5: and yes, he did form the presentation in a good

1266
01:14:39,293 --> 01:14:43,133
Speaker 5: and understandable package. It seems to me that the climate

1267
01:14:43,173 --> 01:14:46,333
Speaker 5: debarcle is more about philosophy ideas that have sought out

1268
01:14:46,333 --> 01:14:49,613
Speaker 5: a scientific narrative that suits them and buggers all the

1269
01:14:49,653 --> 01:14:53,613
Speaker 5: rest of us. I'm encouraged by the recent pushback against

1270
01:14:53,653 --> 01:14:58,733
Speaker 5: the devolutionists. I'm a younger guy, thankfully not indoctrinated, probably

1271
01:14:58,733 --> 01:15:01,653
Speaker 5: because of people like you. Thank you, and Merry Christmas

1272
01:15:01,733 --> 01:15:01,933
Speaker 5: to you.

1273
01:15:02,253 --> 01:15:04,933
Speaker 2: He's got a business in taupo.

1274
01:15:05,333 --> 01:15:06,013
Speaker 4: Yes he does.

1275
01:15:06,173 --> 01:15:08,333
Speaker 5: What is it safe haven? Secure?

1276
01:15:08,533 --> 01:15:12,493
Speaker 2: He is limited, as security is important in life, he

1277
01:15:12,573 --> 01:15:17,893
Speaker 2: deserves he deserves a primo. Yeah, very good from Steve.

1278
01:15:18,693 --> 01:15:22,373
Speaker 2: Your chat with Will Happer was a perfect ord'uv to

1279
01:15:22,613 --> 01:15:26,293
Speaker 2: actually meeting and listening to him at his seminar in

1280
01:15:26,333 --> 01:15:29,213
Speaker 2: Clevesland on Thursday afternoon. That was the very first one

1281
01:15:29,253 --> 01:15:32,973
Speaker 2: he gave and he only arrived that morning. He gave

1282
01:15:33,053 --> 01:15:37,093
Speaker 2: a fascinating talk to a more than full house, an

1283
01:15:37,093 --> 01:15:41,933
Speaker 2: eighty six year old dynamo with a piercing intellect, equally

1284
01:15:41,933 --> 01:15:45,693
Speaker 2: piercing blue eyes, and he's one of those people who,

1285
01:15:45,893 --> 01:15:48,893
Speaker 2: even in a thirty second conversation, gives you their full,

1286
01:15:49,413 --> 01:15:53,533
Speaker 2: undivided attention, a rare quality and the sort of towering

1287
01:15:53,613 --> 01:15:56,333
Speaker 2: mind that we just don't come across on more than

1288
01:15:56,373 --> 01:16:00,453
Speaker 2: a handful of occasions in life. The so called climate scientists,

1289
01:16:00,493 --> 01:16:04,573
Speaker 2: who spend their lives gazing at computer screens regurgitating the

1290
01:16:04,613 --> 01:16:07,613
Speaker 2: garbage that they fed into them, would do well to

1291
01:16:07,613 --> 01:16:11,693
Speaker 2: meet Professor and perhaps learn what real science is. And

1292
01:16:11,813 --> 01:16:16,733
Speaker 2: on that note, it's telling that to my knowledge, no

1293
01:16:16,893 --> 01:16:21,013
Speaker 2: current politicians in New Zealand have met him. Best wishes

1294
01:16:21,013 --> 01:16:25,373
Speaker 2: from Steve ps I love the quip about before we

1295
01:16:25,413 --> 01:16:28,733
Speaker 2: work on artificial intelligence, why don't we do something about

1296
01:16:28,853 --> 01:16:33,253
Speaker 2: natural stupidity? Very busy past I.

1297
01:16:33,013 --> 01:16:36,613
Speaker 5: Yes, leyton Jen says, I chuckled when Dr William Happer

1298
01:16:36,653 --> 01:16:39,973
Speaker 5: said of climate change that there's something funny about this

1299
01:16:40,093 --> 01:16:43,533
Speaker 5: branch of science. Indeed, I found it funny that at

1300
01:16:43,533 --> 01:16:47,013
Speaker 5: COP thirty this year the air conditioning malfunction, the toilets

1301
01:16:47,053 --> 01:16:49,893
Speaker 5: were unable to flush toilet paper and the venue caught fire.

1302
01:16:50,533 --> 01:16:53,813
Speaker 5: After thirty years of the annual UN climate drivel, it

1303
01:16:53,853 --> 01:16:57,493
Speaker 5: appears that man made incompetence is more dangerous than any

1304
01:16:57,573 --> 01:17:02,533
Speaker 5: change in climate. This is the thing. Climate alarmism DIVERTSS

1305
01:17:02,533 --> 01:17:06,573
Speaker 5: from real problems, and these diversions can cost lives. In

1306
01:17:06,613 --> 01:17:10,373
Speaker 5: his Spectator Australia article The End of the Climate Cult,

1307
01:17:10,973 --> 01:17:13,933
Speaker 5: author Matt Ridley reminded us that weather events killed just

1308
01:17:13,973 --> 01:17:17,173
Speaker 5: two two hundred people globally in the first half of

1309
01:17:17,213 --> 01:17:21,453
Speaker 5: this year, a record low, whereas indoor air pollution caused

1310
01:17:21,493 --> 01:17:24,493
Speaker 5: by poor people cooking over wood fires because they lack

1311
01:17:24,653 --> 01:17:28,413
Speaker 5: access to gas and electricity, kills three million a year.

1312
01:17:29,293 --> 01:17:33,933
Speaker 5: The climatastrophe has been a terrible mistake. It diverted attention

1313
01:17:34,013 --> 01:17:40,013
Speaker 5: from real environmental problems, cost a fortune, poverished consumers, perpetuated poverty,

1314
01:17:40,293 --> 01:17:44,293
Speaker 5: frightened young people into infertility, wasted years of our time,

1315
01:17:44,813 --> 01:17:49,293
Speaker 5: undermine democracy, and corrupted science. Time to bury the parrot.

1316
01:17:49,973 --> 01:17:51,573
Speaker 5: And then Jen goes on to say, have a well

1317
01:17:51,573 --> 01:17:55,493
Speaker 5: deserved break later, you deserve it. Have a blessed Christmas

1318
01:17:55,533 --> 01:17:57,253
Speaker 5: in New Year. Thank you so much.

1319
01:17:57,373 --> 01:17:58,453
Speaker 2: What no reference to you.

1320
01:17:59,173 --> 01:18:01,333
Speaker 5: We did, actually, but I just took me off because

1321
01:18:01,333 --> 01:18:02,333
Speaker 5: it's all about you later.

1322
01:18:02,533 --> 01:18:08,213
Speaker 2: No, it's not now, Paul writes, greeting Slaton and Carolyn,

1323
01:18:08,733 --> 01:18:11,213
Speaker 2: Hope you are well. I tried to send you a

1324
01:18:11,213 --> 01:18:14,373
Speaker 2: fifteen second video clip, but it wouldn't go through. Here

1325
01:18:14,453 --> 01:18:17,773
Speaker 2: is what DJ Trump said in his last cabinet meeting

1326
01:18:17,893 --> 01:18:18,373
Speaker 2: for the year.

1327
01:18:19,013 --> 01:18:19,373
Speaker 4: Quote.

1328
01:18:20,253 --> 01:18:23,533
Speaker 2: I ended the Green new scam. They call it the

1329
01:18:23,573 --> 01:18:26,533
Speaker 2: Green new Scam, one of the greatest scams in the

1330
01:18:26,573 --> 01:18:30,053
Speaker 2: history of our country. They talked about global warming at

1331
01:18:30,093 --> 01:18:33,173
Speaker 2: all that crap, at all they have done to this country.

1332
01:18:33,333 --> 01:18:37,133
Speaker 2: Close quote I'm sure you've watched the entire meeting, not

1333
01:18:37,213 --> 01:18:41,053
Speaker 2: short but phenomenal. No, I haven't, actually, but I may

1334
01:18:41,213 --> 01:18:44,653
Speaker 2: very well do. At this point. What is there not

1335
01:18:44,693 --> 01:18:47,733
Speaker 2: to like about Donald Trump? At his age, the energy,

1336
01:18:47,853 --> 01:18:51,693
Speaker 2: and the logical leadership. People just have to watch different

1337
01:18:51,773 --> 01:18:54,693
Speaker 2: media to get any sort of context. Read the man.

1338
01:18:55,453 --> 01:18:59,053
Speaker 2: They that is his cabinet clearly have a culture. His

1339
01:18:59,253 --> 01:19:02,333
Speaker 2: humor and charm just leaves me cracking up. This Trump

1340
01:19:02,413 --> 01:19:06,493
Speaker 2: government is clearly getting the job done at Anyone who

1341
01:19:06,573 --> 01:19:10,373
Speaker 2: sees it a different way is misinformed and perhaps delusional.

1342
01:19:10,733 --> 01:19:12,333
Speaker 2: I love your work to yours, Paul.

1343
01:19:13,733 --> 01:19:20,533
Speaker 5: Leighton. Paul says this piece, and he attaches Brownstone a sewer,

1344
01:19:20,733 --> 01:19:24,213
Speaker 5: not a swamp. This piece, Paul points to the ever

1345
01:19:24,293 --> 01:19:28,453
Speaker 5: present storm that is raging in American political machinations at present.

1346
01:19:29,133 --> 01:19:31,933
Speaker 5: I'm an optimist, so I still place trust in George

1347
01:19:31,933 --> 01:19:35,693
Speaker 5: Friedman's forecast of a renaissance in America with the arrival

1348
01:19:35,733 --> 01:19:39,813
Speaker 5: of his predicted calm. Nonetheless, this is a disconcerting time

1349
01:19:39,893 --> 01:19:43,053
Speaker 5: in global history. I still have faith in Trump, but

1350
01:19:43,213 --> 01:19:47,773
Speaker 5: also respect Marjorie Taylor Green. I hope Trump can self

1351
01:19:47,853 --> 01:19:51,693
Speaker 5: correct as he has done before. PS. The podcast with

1352
01:19:51,973 --> 01:19:54,173
Speaker 5: Dr William Happer was brilliant.

1353
01:19:54,933 --> 01:20:02,133
Speaker 2: Very good. Just with regard to Marjorie Taylor Green, I've

1354
01:20:02,373 --> 01:20:06,093
Speaker 2: mixed and minced over her over the last few years,

1355
01:20:06,333 --> 01:20:10,053
Speaker 2: and I'm in the end. I've just decided them go away.

1356
01:20:10,893 --> 01:20:14,293
Speaker 2: I think that's what I've decided anyway. Now. The following

1357
01:20:14,373 --> 01:20:18,373
Speaker 2: comes from one of the three authors of the two books.

1358
01:20:18,853 --> 01:20:23,973
Speaker 2: Climate Actually New Zealand is all and the Book, of

1359
01:20:23,973 --> 01:20:26,493
Speaker 2: Course was all. The books were published in New Zealand

1360
01:20:27,373 --> 01:20:31,893
Speaker 2: and elsewhere through Amazon is from Alan Alan Trotter from Tawanger.

1361
01:20:32,293 --> 01:20:38,613
Speaker 2: Congratulations on creating a most interesting and provoking interview with

1362
01:20:38,813 --> 01:20:42,693
Speaker 2: leading USA climate academic Professor William Happer. You got most

1363
01:20:42,813 --> 01:20:47,173
Speaker 2: significant issues covered, which is not easy. And because this

1364
01:20:47,293 --> 01:20:51,453
Speaker 2: was written before he had been to a meeting he

1365
01:20:51,613 --> 01:20:55,653
Speaker 2: ISSI attended TALPO. I'm going to suggest to Professor Happer

1366
01:20:55,973 --> 01:20:58,933
Speaker 2: at talpo's presentation that he issued an invitation to the

1367
01:20:59,413 --> 01:21:03,693
Speaker 2: New Zealand government on behalf of all rural and other

1368
01:21:03,773 --> 01:21:08,333
Speaker 2: business owners New Zealand taxpayers that if the New zeald

1369
01:21:08,493 --> 01:21:12,413
Speaker 2: government is not prepared to withdraw from the Paris Accord forthwith,

1370
01:21:13,173 --> 01:21:17,053
Speaker 2: just like the US has recently done on Happer's advice

1371
01:21:18,373 --> 01:21:22,773
Speaker 2: in light of the climate information about net zero emission

1372
01:21:22,893 --> 01:21:29,133
Speaker 2: targets attainment, then the New Zealand government must issue an unconditional,

1373
01:21:29,293 --> 01:21:34,253
Speaker 2: irrevocable undertaking to refund all ets taxes paid by any

1374
01:21:34,293 --> 01:21:39,253
Speaker 2: New Zealander. Once his predictions are verified, I believe New Zealand.

1375
01:21:39,613 --> 01:21:42,413
Speaker 2: I believe the New Zealand government then has to come clean.

1376
01:21:42,733 --> 01:21:46,013
Speaker 2: Either admit their mistake and withdraw from the Paris Accord

1377
01:21:46,893 --> 01:21:50,533
Speaker 2: to prevent billions being paid in ultimate error to Paris,

1378
01:21:51,053 --> 01:21:54,693
Speaker 2: or stick with their decision and endure a contingent liability

1379
01:21:54,693 --> 01:21:57,853
Speaker 2: into the future which ultimately will have to be refunded

1380
01:21:58,013 --> 01:22:01,693
Speaker 2: to all New Zealand taxpayers. A government can't have it

1381
01:22:01,693 --> 01:22:05,213
Speaker 2: both ways. It makes government put its money where its

1382
01:22:05,213 --> 01:22:10,213
Speaker 2: mouth now is. Don't forget forget Allen that this money

1383
01:22:10,693 --> 01:22:14,493
Speaker 2: is not the government's money. Actually it's our money, taxpayers money.

1384
01:22:16,253 --> 01:22:18,853
Speaker 5: Layden tim says, thank you for bringing us doctor William Happer.

1385
01:22:18,933 --> 01:22:22,813
Speaker 5: He was a great listen. Unfortunately, the Green Party, Labor

1386
01:22:22,853 --> 01:22:25,853
Speaker 5: Party and too many in the current government, alongside the

1387
01:22:25,893 --> 01:22:29,333
Speaker 5: teacher unions and other aligned groups will not bother to

1388
01:22:29,373 --> 01:22:32,773
Speaker 5: go and listen to him or encourage holidaying students to

1389
01:22:33,493 --> 01:22:37,213
Speaker 5: a lost opportunity. One of the great frustrations of the

1390
01:22:37,293 --> 01:22:41,093
Speaker 5: last ten years has been the vilification of primary industry,

1391
01:22:41,293 --> 01:22:45,213
Speaker 5: especially cattle and sheep farming, by the socialists. The so

1392
01:22:45,373 --> 01:22:49,053
Speaker 5: called representative bodies for New Zealand farmers let their levy

1393
01:22:49,093 --> 01:22:51,773
Speaker 5: payers and members down by not standing up to the

1394
01:22:51,813 --> 01:22:56,573
Speaker 5: government of the time. In my humble opinion, climate science

1395
01:22:57,133 --> 01:23:00,653
Speaker 5: was devised by our elite overlords to invent another way

1396
01:23:00,693 --> 01:23:04,493
Speaker 5: to taxis mere mortals. As for the supposed one hundred

1397
01:23:04,533 --> 01:23:08,653
Speaker 5: and eighty degree U turn by Bill Gates and Tony Blair, again,

1398
01:23:08,693 --> 01:23:12,613
Speaker 5: in my opinion, there's cynical control freaks who chase the money.

1399
01:23:13,133 --> 01:23:15,853
Speaker 5: They're sensing the public mood is changing and want to

1400
01:23:15,893 --> 01:23:17,893
Speaker 5: be ahead of the curve so they can clip the

1401
01:23:17,933 --> 01:23:23,653
Speaker 5: ticket and maintain control. Their respective foundations need deep scrutiny,

1402
01:23:24,533 --> 01:23:28,013
Speaker 5: and Tim says regards and compliments of the season. Anti

1403
01:23:28,093 --> 01:23:29,013
Speaker 5: you Tim, Thank.

1404
01:23:28,813 --> 01:23:32,533
Speaker 2: You Tim Bagadgew have been catching up on your podcast

1405
01:23:32,613 --> 01:23:36,173
Speaker 2: and in particular number three eleven with Lord David Wilson.

1406
01:23:37,173 --> 01:23:40,533
Speaker 2: He recalls many occasions of the persecution of Jewish people,

1407
01:23:40,773 --> 01:23:43,573
Speaker 2: not just in the Middle East, and that reminded me

1408
01:23:43,613 --> 01:23:46,933
Speaker 2: of a memorial I saw whilst visiting York in England

1409
01:23:46,973 --> 01:23:52,493
Speaker 2: recently see below. What what he's got below is a

1410
01:23:52,733 --> 01:23:56,693
Speaker 2: photo that he's taken of it with the inscription which

1411
01:23:56,773 --> 01:23:59,293
Speaker 2: is as you can see, missus producer on such an

1412
01:23:59,293 --> 01:24:04,173
Speaker 2: angle and so I won't read it. I'll have a

1413
01:24:04,173 --> 01:24:07,653
Speaker 2: go when I get there. It memorializes the sacrifice of

1414
01:24:07,693 --> 01:24:12,013
Speaker 2: some one fifty Jews who sought protection within the Royal

1415
01:24:12,133 --> 01:24:17,533
Speaker 2: Castle that is Clifford's Tower at York on sixteen March

1416
01:24:17,813 --> 01:24:25,453
Speaker 2: eleven ninety eleven ninety from a mob incited by Richard Malabise,

1417
01:24:26,253 --> 01:24:30,893
Speaker 2: one of the several of the city's noblemen, who noted

1418
01:24:30,893 --> 01:24:33,933
Speaker 2: the rise of antisemitism within the community and saw this

1419
01:24:33,973 --> 01:24:37,053
Speaker 2: as an opportunity to rid themselves of their debts owed

1420
01:24:37,093 --> 01:24:40,613
Speaker 2: to the Jewish money lenders. He offered them free passage

1421
01:24:40,613 --> 01:24:43,573
Speaker 2: if they renounced their faith, but they chose to take

1422
01:24:43,613 --> 01:24:48,013
Speaker 2: their own lives rather than take up his offer. Those

1423
01:24:48,093 --> 01:24:52,173
Speaker 2: that did and sought mercy from the Christians were slaughtered,

1424
01:24:52,413 --> 01:24:55,493
Speaker 2: and the mobs subsequently destroyed the records of their debt

1425
01:24:56,333 --> 01:25:00,093
Speaker 2: that were held at york Minster. The stone memorial plarque

1426
01:25:00,093 --> 01:25:02,733
Speaker 2: was put in place in nineteen seventy eight. Here is

1427
01:25:02,733 --> 01:25:05,493
Speaker 2: a link to more information about this event if you're interested.

1428
01:25:06,133 --> 01:25:09,693
Speaker 2: It would seem that not all violent toward Jewish population

1429
01:25:09,853 --> 01:25:12,813
Speaker 2: is born of the hatred of their faith, but also

1430
01:25:12,973 --> 01:25:15,133
Speaker 2: by the greed of men. Now wish you and this

1431
01:25:15,213 --> 01:25:18,493
Speaker 2: is producer the best for the approaching festive season. Thank

1432
01:25:18,573 --> 01:25:22,133
Speaker 2: you for your work, missus producer, as it is a

1433
01:25:22,173 --> 01:25:25,493
Speaker 2: great source of knowledge to me as well as comfort

1434
01:25:25,693 --> 01:25:29,653
Speaker 2: that not all of this world is barking mad. But

1435
01:25:29,693 --> 01:25:34,053
Speaker 2: it's a terribly ugly high figure on the night. This

1436
01:25:34,133 --> 01:25:38,213
Speaker 2: is the plaque on the night of Friday, sixteen March

1437
01:25:38,453 --> 01:25:42,213
Speaker 2: eleven ninety some one hundred and fifty Jews and Jewesses

1438
01:25:42,613 --> 01:25:47,013
Speaker 2: of York, having sought protection in the Royal Castle on

1439
01:25:47,093 --> 01:25:51,773
Speaker 2: this site from a mob incited by Richard Melabise and

1440
01:25:51,973 --> 01:25:55,733
Speaker 2: others chose to die at each other's hands rather than

1441
01:25:56,733 --> 01:26:02,773
Speaker 2: renounce their faith. Then there is a quote from Isaiah Anyway.

1442
01:26:03,173 --> 01:26:06,053
Speaker 5: Lake and I've got one more, Jan says, great interview

1443
01:26:06,053 --> 01:26:09,013
Speaker 5: with Stephen Rowe, a very impressive young man. We need

1444
01:26:09,053 --> 01:26:11,773
Speaker 5: more people like him in our world today.

1445
01:26:12,653 --> 01:26:16,533
Speaker 2: I'm Jane, short and sweet Jane. Thank you and missus producer.

1446
01:26:16,573 --> 01:26:19,173
Speaker 2: That will do for twenty twenty.

1447
01:26:18,893 --> 01:26:21,533
Speaker 5: Five another year. Back at it next to you late.

1448
01:26:21,573 --> 01:26:23,613
Speaker 2: You're number eight. You realize that.

1449
01:26:24,533 --> 01:26:28,013
Speaker 5: What ridiculous isn't it in fact? And you're happy to

1450
01:26:28,093 --> 01:26:30,493
Speaker 5: carry on doing it, and you love it so much.

1451
01:26:31,373 --> 01:26:33,813
Speaker 5: Goodness knows what you'd do if you didn't do this podcast.

1452
01:26:34,253 --> 01:26:35,573
Speaker 2: Is that a question or a statement?

1453
01:26:37,533 --> 01:26:39,293
Speaker 5: It's a scary question.

1454
01:26:39,333 --> 01:26:45,133
Speaker 2: Missus producer. Merry Christmas, and to you and and a

1455
01:26:45,173 --> 01:26:47,373
Speaker 2: really great twenty twenty six and to all.

1456
01:26:47,253 --> 01:26:49,893
Speaker 5: The wonderful people who still listen. To be honest with you,

1457
01:26:49,973 --> 01:26:52,173
Speaker 5: late and after eight years, I didn't think it would

1458
01:26:52,173 --> 01:26:56,893
Speaker 5: be as as well followed as it is now after

1459
01:26:56,933 --> 01:27:00,693
Speaker 5: eight years away from the radio, But you continue to

1460
01:27:00,693 --> 01:27:04,173
Speaker 5: have an enormous number of people who listen and communicate

1461
01:27:05,893 --> 01:27:08,333
Speaker 5: wonderful and we're very very grateful for that.

1462
01:27:08,373 --> 01:27:09,333
Speaker 2: The reach and every one of you.

1463
01:27:09,533 --> 01:27:22,213
Speaker 6: Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas.

1464
01:27:24,893 --> 01:27:27,093
Speaker 2: Now. It just so happens that a couple of days

1465
01:27:27,133 --> 01:27:30,173
Speaker 2: after we recorded with Mike Saban, he sent me an

1466
01:27:30,173 --> 01:27:34,973
Speaker 2: email and I'm going to utilize it to exit twenty

1467
01:27:35,093 --> 01:27:39,173
Speaker 2: twenty five, says I found Podcasts three hundred and twelve

1468
01:27:39,173 --> 01:27:43,493
Speaker 2: featuring John Elcock to be timely and very much prophetic

1469
01:27:44,333 --> 01:27:46,533
Speaker 2: our government and others across the world, and our pushing

1470
01:27:46,533 --> 01:27:52,733
Speaker 2: ahead with digitizing our identifying credentials such as drivers' licenses,

1471
01:27:52,853 --> 01:27:57,653
Speaker 2: passports and the like. As this happens, our banking institutions

1472
01:27:57,653 --> 01:28:02,573
Speaker 2: are also driving ahead with digitizing our currencies. All of

1473
01:28:02,613 --> 01:28:07,333
Speaker 2: which will be sold to us as more secure, more convenient,

1474
01:28:07,733 --> 01:28:11,853
Speaker 2: and of great benefit to us. That's a two East billboard,

1475
01:28:12,093 --> 01:28:18,093
Speaker 2: if ever I saw one. John succinctly highlighted the darker

1476
01:28:18,133 --> 01:28:20,813
Speaker 2: side of what is at play and what I believe

1477
01:28:20,853 --> 01:28:24,053
Speaker 2: will foster greater levels of mistrust and fear from the

1478
01:28:24,093 --> 01:28:28,773
Speaker 2: populace as we see past the shiny veneer of convenience,

1479
01:28:29,533 --> 01:28:33,333
Speaker 2: in the absence of a plausible alternative, a governments here

1480
01:28:33,333 --> 01:28:37,413
Speaker 2: and abroad will be enabled to exert surreptitious overreach and

1481
01:28:37,573 --> 01:28:42,573
Speaker 2: unsurpassed control and surveillance over us as citizens, when combined

1482
01:28:42,613 --> 01:28:47,173
Speaker 2: with central control of digital finances or Whellian like control,

1483
01:28:47,533 --> 01:28:53,973
Speaker 2: is but a key stroke away. So ask yourself a question,

1484
01:28:54,733 --> 01:28:56,573
Speaker 2: how many other people do you think might think along

1485
01:28:56,613 --> 01:29:00,853
Speaker 2: those similar lines? Can I suggest that there are many,

1486
01:29:00,853 --> 01:29:03,413
Speaker 2: many more than most people would think. Here is an

1487
01:29:03,533 --> 01:29:08,653
Speaker 2: earlier article written by Michael Snyder. It came out a few,

1488
01:29:08,733 --> 01:29:11,173
Speaker 2: just a few. All of these appeared in the last

1489
01:29:11,173 --> 01:29:13,453
Speaker 2: week or so, let's put it that way. But this

1490
01:29:13,613 --> 01:29:18,613
Speaker 2: was before Mike Saban's letter eleven signs that our world

1491
01:29:18,653 --> 01:29:22,493
Speaker 2: is rapidly becoming a lot more orwellian. Now, you might

1492
01:29:22,493 --> 01:29:24,213
Speaker 2: be able to pick up a few of these yourself,

1493
01:29:24,293 --> 01:29:29,453
Speaker 2: but here's the list without going into the explanation of each. Firstly,

1494
01:29:29,813 --> 01:29:33,693
Speaker 2: UK authorities are rolling out a countrywide facial recognition system

1495
01:29:34,013 --> 01:29:38,653
Speaker 2: that will use AI facial recognition cameras to watch the

1496
01:29:38,933 --> 01:29:43,053
Speaker 2: entire population. Number two. Of course, the control freaks in

1497
01:29:43,093 --> 01:29:47,213
Speaker 2: the UK also monitor everything that gets posted on social media.

1498
01:29:47,413 --> 01:29:50,813
Speaker 2: One British man recently found out the hard way when

1499
01:29:50,853 --> 01:29:53,773
Speaker 2: he was arrested for posing with a legally owned gun

1500
01:29:54,253 --> 01:29:58,453
Speaker 2: in the United States. Number three. If you don't believe

1501
01:29:58,533 --> 01:30:02,173
Speaker 2: that thought crime is real, just consider this next example.

1502
01:30:02,493 --> 01:30:07,053
Speaker 2: Eleven police officers eleven of them recently barged in and

1503
01:30:07,213 --> 01:30:10,213
Speaker 2: arrested a thirty four four year old woman they were

1504
01:30:10,253 --> 01:30:14,533
Speaker 2: sitting naked in her own bathtub because she used offensive

1505
01:30:14,573 --> 01:30:18,453
Speaker 2: words while texting another woman on her phone. Eleven of

1506
01:30:18,493 --> 01:30:24,173
Speaker 2: them okay. Number four. French President Emmanuel Macron wants the

1507
01:30:24,293 --> 01:30:28,333
Speaker 2: power to determine which media outlets will be allowed to

1508
01:30:28,373 --> 01:30:32,773
Speaker 2: speak to the public and which media outlets would be silenced.

1509
01:30:33,493 --> 01:30:36,733
Speaker 2: Number five. Because he's a champion of free speech. The

1510
01:30:36,893 --> 01:30:40,893
Speaker 2: EU has been coming after Elon Musk for years, so

1511
01:30:40,933 --> 01:30:43,973
Speaker 2: it shouldn't surprise any of us that the European Commission

1512
01:30:44,493 --> 01:30:48,973
Speaker 2: just find his company one hundred and forty million dollars

1513
01:30:49,013 --> 01:30:53,693
Speaker 2: for supposed violations of the Digital Services Act. Number six.

1514
01:30:54,453 --> 01:30:58,813
Speaker 2: In recent years, we've seen so many controversial voices suddenly

1515
01:30:58,853 --> 01:31:03,093
Speaker 2: have their bank account shut down. Shockingly, JP Morgan Chase

1516
01:31:03,173 --> 01:31:07,453
Speaker 2: CEO Jamie Diamond is now publicly admitting that his company

1517
01:31:07,893 --> 01:31:09,813
Speaker 2: does d bank people.

1518
01:31:10,213 --> 01:31:10,533
Speaker 4: Seven.

1519
01:31:11,413 --> 01:31:15,653
Speaker 2: India wants to require that phone location services are always

1520
01:31:15,733 --> 01:31:19,013
Speaker 2: on so that the government can track people through their

1521
01:31:19,053 --> 01:31:23,533
Speaker 2: phones wherever they go. Number eight. A journalist in the

1522
01:31:23,573 --> 01:31:29,413
Speaker 2: Netherlands has tested AI powered glasses that can instantly identify

1523
01:31:29,453 --> 01:31:34,253
Speaker 2: strangers in the street. Number nine. A nationwide digital ID

1524
01:31:34,533 --> 01:31:38,693
Speaker 2: is being introduced in the UK and soon you will

1525
01:31:38,693 --> 01:31:41,733
Speaker 2: not be able to get a new job without one.

1526
01:31:41,973 --> 01:31:46,133
Speaker 2: Number ten. The digital ID program in France is moving

1527
01:31:46,173 --> 01:31:50,333
Speaker 2: from pilot to scale. Now what does that mean. France's

1528
01:31:50,453 --> 01:31:55,893
Speaker 2: national digital identity app, France Identity, has enabled the creation

1529
01:31:56,013 --> 01:31:59,693
Speaker 2: of more than three point two million digital IDs, according

1530
01:31:59,693 --> 01:32:04,173
Speaker 2: to new figures. And number eleven. In Illinois, there is

1531
01:32:04,293 --> 01:32:09,373
Speaker 2: such overwhelming demand for digital IDs that some people are

1532
01:32:09,373 --> 01:32:12,413
Speaker 2: being forced to wait. And let me conclude with the

1533
01:32:13,053 --> 01:32:15,853
Speaker 2: rest of that. A number of residents trying to download

1534
01:32:15,893 --> 01:32:18,573
Speaker 2: the digital ID to their Apple wallet received the following

1535
01:32:18,573 --> 01:32:22,013
Speaker 2: message due to the high volume your state's service is

1536
01:32:22,053 --> 01:32:25,573
Speaker 2: currently busy. Users can then answer the question do you

1537
01:32:25,653 --> 01:32:29,133
Speaker 2: want to be notified when it becomes available? Now? This

1538
01:32:29,213 --> 01:32:33,213
Speaker 2: is where the entire world is heading. As the big

1539
01:32:33,253 --> 01:32:36,653
Speaker 2: Brother control grid gets tighter and tighter, the stage is

1540
01:32:36,693 --> 01:32:41,333
Speaker 2: being set for unprecedented tyranny on a global scale. Tyrants

1541
01:32:41,333 --> 01:32:43,773
Speaker 2: of the past could only dream of having the sort

1542
01:32:43,813 --> 01:32:48,733
Speaker 2: of AI powered tools that we possess today. If you

1543
01:32:48,813 --> 01:32:52,413
Speaker 2: do not submit to the digital goolag that's being constructed

1544
01:32:52,413 --> 01:32:56,493
Speaker 2: all around us, eventually you will not be able to buy, sell,

1545
01:32:56,973 --> 01:33:01,213
Speaker 2: get a job, open a bank account without proper digital identification.

1546
01:33:02,773 --> 01:33:05,133
Speaker 2: What would you do then? And then there is a

1547
01:33:05,173 --> 01:33:08,333
Speaker 2: final one that is headline or within the last few days,

1548
01:33:08,733 --> 01:33:14,333
Speaker 2: Who Gates Who Dash Gates of World Health Organization Dashgates

1549
01:33:14,933 --> 01:33:20,933
Speaker 2: unveils blueprint for global digital ID, AI driven surveillance and

1550
01:33:21,093 --> 01:33:25,253
Speaker 2: long life vaccine tracking for everyone you want a little

1551
01:33:25,293 --> 01:33:28,453
Speaker 2: more on It comes with points as well and a

1552
01:33:28,493 --> 01:33:32,013
Speaker 2: document published in the October Bulletin of the World Health

1553
01:33:32,173 --> 01:33:35,893
Speaker 2: Organization and funded by the Gates Foundation. The World Health

1554
01:33:35,973 --> 01:33:43,013
Speaker 2: Organization that WHO is proposing a globally interoperable digital identity

1555
01:33:43,133 --> 01:33:49,893
Speaker 2: infrastructure that permanently tracks every individual's vaccination status from birth.

1556
01:33:50,413 --> 01:33:55,293
Speaker 2: And then there are the headings what the WHO document

1557
01:33:55,333 --> 01:34:00,813
Speaker 2: admits in their own words sounds rominous a birth registered

1558
01:34:00,853 --> 01:34:05,173
Speaker 2: digital identity and lifelong tracking. That actually was number one,

1559
01:34:05,373 --> 01:34:10,253
Speaker 2: Number two linking vaccine records to income, ethnicity, religion and

1560
01:34:10,613 --> 01:34:17,493
Speaker 2: social programs. Number three conditioning access to schooling, travel and

1561
01:34:17,653 --> 01:34:22,133
Speaker 2: services on digital vaccine proof in other words, prove you've

1562
01:34:22,133 --> 01:34:26,693
Speaker 2: got your digital vaccine. Number four. Using digital systems to

1563
01:34:26,813 --> 01:34:32,653
Speaker 2: prevent wasting vaccine on already immune children. Five AI systems

1564
01:34:32,693 --> 01:34:40,133
Speaker 2: to target individuals, identify unreached and combat misinformation. Six Global

1565
01:34:40,493 --> 01:34:48,013
Speaker 2: interoperability standards for international data exchange. Seven surveillance expansion into

1566
01:34:48,133 --> 01:34:56,013
Speaker 2: everyday interactions. Eight Behavior shaping through alerts, reminders, and social monitoring.

1567
01:34:57,213 --> 01:35:02,053
Speaker 2: Acknowledging of global donor control includes the Gates Foundation. That's

1568
01:35:02,133 --> 01:35:05,133
Speaker 2: number nine, and that's the final with the number but

1569
01:35:05,253 --> 01:35:09,213
Speaker 2: then bottom line in the World Health Organizationation's own words,

1570
01:35:10,053 --> 01:35:13,973
Speaker 2: digital transformation is a unique opportunity to address many long

1571
01:35:14,053 --> 01:35:19,533
Speaker 2: standing challenges in immunization. Now is the time for bold

1572
01:35:19,773 --> 01:35:26,093
Speaker 2: new approaches, and stakeholders should embrace digital transformation as an

1573
01:35:26,213 --> 01:35:32,573
Speaker 2: enabler for achieving the ambitious Immunization Agenda twenty thirty goals,

1574
01:35:32,773 --> 01:35:36,653
Speaker 2: and the article concludes this is a comprehensive proposal for

1575
01:35:36,733 --> 01:35:41,653
Speaker 2: a global digital identity system permanently linked to vaccine status,

1576
01:35:42,133 --> 01:35:48,933
Speaker 2: integrated with demographic and socioeconomic data, enforced through AI driven surveillance,

1577
01:35:49,533 --> 01:35:55,053
Speaker 2: and designed for international interruptability. It is not speculative, but

1578
01:35:55,133 --> 01:35:59,133
Speaker 2: written in plain language, funded by the Gates Foundation and

1579
01:35:59,213 --> 01:36:04,533
Speaker 2: published in the World Health Organization's owned journal. Now, if

1580
01:36:04,573 --> 01:36:06,813
Speaker 2: you're all for one of those things, then you're listening

1581
01:36:06,813 --> 01:36:10,053
Speaker 2: to the wrong podcast. But I don't think there is

1582
01:36:10,093 --> 01:36:14,133
Speaker 2: anybody that would fall into that category. And that's something

1583
01:36:14,173 --> 01:36:16,813
Speaker 2: that we can all dwell on over the next few

1584
01:36:16,813 --> 01:36:19,773
Speaker 2: weeks as we all take a break because that takes

1585
01:36:19,853 --> 01:36:23,333
Speaker 2: us out for podcasts number three hundred and fourteen. It's

1586
01:36:23,373 --> 01:36:26,013
Speaker 2: been a pleasure. If you would like to write to us,

1587
01:36:26,053 --> 01:36:29,293
Speaker 2: correspond with us Latent at newstalksb dot co dot nzied

1588
01:36:29,373 --> 01:36:34,573
Speaker 2: or Carolyn at newstalksb dot co dot nz. It has

1589
01:36:34,653 --> 01:36:38,573
Speaker 2: been one of those years where when you look back,

1590
01:36:38,573 --> 01:36:42,253
Speaker 2: as Carolyn was saying earlier in the mail room, you

1591
01:36:42,373 --> 01:36:45,213
Speaker 2: look back and you think, Wow, that was some ride.

1592
01:36:45,413 --> 01:36:48,413
Speaker 2: It certainly had plenty of ups and downs for some

1593
01:36:48,573 --> 01:36:55,493
Speaker 2: of us. So we shall return in early February ish,

1594
01:36:55,493 --> 01:36:58,493
Speaker 2: but we will of course be broadcasting or rebroadcasting if

1595
01:36:58,493 --> 01:37:00,693
Speaker 2: you want some of the best of over the last

1596
01:37:00,693 --> 01:37:02,613
Speaker 2: twelve months. I might even throw in one or two

1597
01:37:02,613 --> 01:37:06,013
Speaker 2: others from earlier in the piece. We've got some collection

1598
01:37:06,173 --> 01:37:10,493
Speaker 2: now and then may I wish you all again compliments

1599
01:37:10,493 --> 01:37:12,973
Speaker 2: of the season. I hope you have a wonderful break

1600
01:37:13,373 --> 01:37:15,533
Speaker 2: whatever you're doing. If you're having a break, of course,

1601
01:37:15,693 --> 01:37:20,533
Speaker 2: not everybody does. And we shall look forward to making

1602
01:37:20,573 --> 01:37:26,173
Speaker 2: contact yet again in twenty twenty six. Why don't you

1603
01:37:26,173 --> 01:37:30,053
Speaker 2: try something interesting, Why don't you draw up a list

1604
01:37:30,813 --> 01:37:36,373
Speaker 2: of events that you think might come to fruition in

1605
01:37:36,413 --> 01:37:41,093
Speaker 2: twenty twenty six, whatever they have to do with with

1606
01:37:41,253 --> 01:37:44,813
Speaker 2: international matters, with local matters, whatever. A drop a list.

1607
01:37:45,413 --> 01:37:46,893
Speaker 2: I don't care how many you put in it, but

1608
01:37:47,813 --> 01:37:49,653
Speaker 2: keep it to ten. If you can get that fire

1609
01:37:50,213 --> 01:37:53,813
Speaker 2: and email it to me before we come back on

1610
01:37:53,853 --> 01:37:56,293
Speaker 2: air next year, and we can have some fun with

1611
01:37:56,373 --> 01:38:00,293
Speaker 2: that and see how people are feeling. But that would

1612
01:38:00,293 --> 01:38:03,573
Speaker 2: be great if you did that. So latent at us

1613
01:38:03,613 --> 01:38:05,493
Speaker 2: talks at e dot co dot Nzen Carol and at

1614
01:38:05,573 --> 01:38:08,213
Speaker 2: us Talks at B dot co dot nz and we'll talk.

1615
01:38:08,373 --> 01:38:19,493
Speaker 1: So thank you for more from news Talks at B

1616
01:38:19,773 --> 01:38:23,013
Speaker 1: Listen live on air or online, and keep our shows

1617
01:38:23,053 --> 01:38:26,373
Speaker 1: with you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio