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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine

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Speaker 1: from News Talks EDB.

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Speaker 2: The last time Australia beat the All Blacks at Eden

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Speaker 2: Park was on the sixth of September nineteen eighty six.

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Speaker 3: He's done trying to work a loop. Australia could score

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Speaker 3: if New Zealand i't careful here they go far. Jones

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Speaker 3: overlap for Campeze.

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Speaker 4: He's there.

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Speaker 5: Australia has won the Cup. David Campese is overjoyed. Look

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Speaker 5: at the elation in the Australian team. Campeze hasn't seen

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Speaker 5: them all to day, but that makes it all worthwhile.

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Speaker 2: Gee I remember that actually, like it was yesterday nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty six. Australian halfback that day and provider of the

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Speaker 2: final pass to David Campese was Nick Pharr Jones. He

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Speaker 2: became Wallaby's captain in nineteen eighty eight and led the

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Speaker 2: side thirty six times. He was captain when Australia won

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Speaker 2: the Rugby World Cup in nineteen ninety one. In total,

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Speaker 2: he played sixty three Test matches for Australia, and in

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety two he was made a Member of the

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Speaker 2: Order of Australia. For his services to rugby union that

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Speaker 2: same year, inducted into the Sport Australia Hall of Fame

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Speaker 2: and into World Rugby's Hall of Fame. In twenty eleven.

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Speaker 2: Nick Varr Jones is with us on Weekend Sport. Thanks

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Speaker 2: so much for joining us, Nick, What do you remember

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Speaker 2: most vividly about that day at Eden Park September nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty six when you meat the All Blacks twenty two

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Speaker 2: points to nine.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, good a Jason to you and your listeners. I

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Speaker 4: love There are a lot of things. I mean, the

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Speaker 4: relief of winning.

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Speaker 6: You know, we lost in Duneed and we thought we'd

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Speaker 6: secure the letters low down there, but we lost thirteen

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Speaker 6: twelve and then the two weeks we had to wait

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Speaker 6: to steal the deal was just. It was tough. It

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Speaker 6: was something that we wanted so much. There had been

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Speaker 6: four test matches where one point had separate raided the teams.

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Speaker 6: The last test in the eighty four series in Australia

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Speaker 6: I think was twenty four to twenty three to New Zealand.

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Speaker 6: The first test against the Baby Blacks at Wellington was

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Speaker 6: thirteen twelve to us down in Dundeed, and it was

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Speaker 6: thirteen twelve to the All Blacks, and so you know,

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Speaker 6: we just were so desperate to win, and I think

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Speaker 6: it was just the sheer relief Jason. But one thing

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Speaker 6: that I'll always remember was Campo scored the final try

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Speaker 6: with about ten minutes ago to really put it away

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Speaker 6: for us, and we went back to the kickoff and

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Speaker 6: there was my old man Max who jumped the fence

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Speaker 6: and was taking photographs on the sideline. So you've got

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Speaker 6: to remember it was a long time ago and you

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Speaker 6: could sort of do that thing, get away with that

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Speaker 6: sort of thing.

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Speaker 4: But that was one of the lasting memories.

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Speaker 2: That I had, Absolutely fantastic. You played the All Blacks

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Speaker 2: eighteen more times after that. Were they the games you

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Speaker 2: looked forward to the most?

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Speaker 4: Oh? Look for sure.

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Speaker 6: I mean you've got to remember that until nineteen ninety two,

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Speaker 6: South Africa weren't in international rugby because of isolation from apartheid,

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Speaker 6: so the huge matches for US were always the All Blacks.

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Speaker 6: As you mentioned, I was lucky enough to play twenty

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Speaker 6: Tests eighteen for Australia and then I was privileged to

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Speaker 6: captain a World fifteen against the All Blacks. In your

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Speaker 6: nineteen ninety two centenary celebrations, so every match I remember

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Speaker 6: almost like it was yesterday. I think we won seven,

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Speaker 6: we drew one, and you guys won the rest. But

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Speaker 6: it was it was amazing. And you know, you've got

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Speaker 6: to remember everyone thinks that the opposition always stood up

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Speaker 6: to the Harker. It really wasn't until nineteen eighty seven

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Speaker 6: that inaugur World Cup year. Not that we played them

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Speaker 6: in the World Cup, of course, but we played a

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Speaker 6: one off Test and that was the first time that

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Speaker 6: any international team actually stood up to the Harker. But

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Speaker 6: we did that out of respect. I'd much prefer to

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Speaker 6: be ten meters away eyeballing your opponent and respecting the

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Speaker 6: great tradition of New Zealand rugby than fifty meters away

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Speaker 6: and turning you back. And you know Jo's and for

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Speaker 6: your listeners, that respect was because you're such a great

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Speaker 6: rugby nation you have been right through the decades. But

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Speaker 6: as an opponent, you want to send a second message

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Speaker 6: that we're not going to roll over and die. And

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Speaker 6: if you're going to be just today, you're gonna have

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Speaker 6: to play bloody well.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely brilliant. Who were some of the more formidable players.

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Speaker 2: You were always aware of and planned for when the

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Speaker 2: Australian sides you were and played against the All Blacks.

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Speaker 6: Ah, look, you had amazing packs and what have you.

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Speaker 6: But I think someone who really revolutionized back row play

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Speaker 6: was Michael Jones. And at the end of the day,

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Speaker 6: when you talk about tactics, if Michael Jones played well,

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Speaker 6: we lost.

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Speaker 4: It was that simple, and so a lot of our.

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Speaker 6: Tactics were around burying him in deep dark places, making

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Speaker 6: sure that he makes as many tackles as possible and

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Speaker 6: gets at the bottom of rucks and mall so he

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Speaker 6: couldn't be in the face of Michael Lyoner, Tim Hoore

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Speaker 6: and Jason Little Campo. If he was, we basically lost.

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Speaker 6: In the other guy that we'd often form tactics around,

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Speaker 6: who's a great mate of mine as Michael is, but

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Speaker 6: a guy who I catch up with reasonably regularly whenever

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Speaker 6: I'm in New Zealand or he's over here, is Grant

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Speaker 6: fox Foxy as well. If he had a great game

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Speaker 6: or played well, in all likelihood we lost. But we

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Speaker 6: had to devise our tactics around taking time and space

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Speaker 6: from Grant and putting him under as much pressure as

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Speaker 6: we could, And if we did that, we had a

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Speaker 6: chance of winning.

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Speaker 2: Now, is it true that you and Tim Horan took

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Speaker 2: a dip in Wellington Harbor after you beat the All

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Speaker 2: Blacks of the Athletic Park in nineteen ninety.

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Speaker 6: We did, indeed, Jason, We actually we'd had a pack

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Speaker 6: that had we won in Auckland. We were staying at

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Speaker 6: the Monde Dezie hotel which was on the harbor, and

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Speaker 6: we basically said before the match at Eden Park in

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Speaker 6: nineteen ninety that if we win, we'll.

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Speaker 4: Sneak down to the harbor and have a dip.

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Speaker 6: Well, we lost in a close game in Allband, but

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Speaker 6: I think we're in a nightclub at about one am.

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Speaker 4: My wife was there as well. I can assure you

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Speaker 4: of that.

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Speaker 6: But I think I went up to Tim or he

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Speaker 6: came up to me at about one am and said, well,

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Speaker 6: we didn't do it in Auckland, but how about we

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Speaker 6: go down to the harbor And we did that, and

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Speaker 6: I can assure you it wasn't very warm. And there

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Speaker 6: are some photos drifting around and I'm not overly proud

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Speaker 6: of those photos.

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Speaker 4: I can assure you.

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Speaker 2: Many of your tests NICA course were alongside the great

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Speaker 2: Michael Liner. How did you achieve the chemistry you did

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Speaker 2: with him as a nine ten combo.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: Look, I was lucky enough to play my first four

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Speaker 6: Tests against alongside Mark Ella, the Great Mark Ella, before

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Speaker 6: he retired at the end of the Grand Slam in

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Speaker 6: eighty four. And then Michael will switched from twelve to

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Speaker 6: his more usual position of ten. Of course he played

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Speaker 6: for Queensland. I played for New South Wales. But somehow

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Speaker 6: when we came together in that gold jersey, it always

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Speaker 6: jelledlarly as captain. Michael took so much pressure off me

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Speaker 6: as the captain because anything outside me, from a scrum

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Speaker 6: or what have you, he would basically take over. He

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Speaker 6: would call the shots, so that really took a lot

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Speaker 6: of pressure off me. If I didn't want to play

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Speaker 6: a back row move or something closer to the ruck

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Speaker 6: or mall or scrum, then not. He really took over

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Speaker 6: from there and that just gave me a lot more

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Speaker 6: I suppose breathing space to be able to focus on

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Speaker 6: my role as a scrum half and captain. But he

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Speaker 6: was a terrific player. We had a great telepathy. I knew,

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Speaker 6: you know, if he wanted to drift pass or if

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Speaker 6: he wanted to direct. He was one of those guys

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Speaker 6: that was insistent on where you hit him, always had

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Speaker 6: to be sort of on his hip about waist high.

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Speaker 6: He was pretty particular in relation to that, compared to

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Speaker 6: someone like Mark Eller, who basically said, Nick, you do

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Speaker 6: the chucking, I'll do the catching. But look, I played

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Speaker 6: over fifty Tests with Michael and it was an absolute privilege.

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Speaker 6: It's wonderful to seeze young fellow coming through, or he's

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Speaker 6: two young fellas coming through in world rugby.

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Speaker 2: You both, of course were part of that nineteen ninety

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Speaker 2: one Rugby World Cup winning side. What were the key

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Speaker 2: ingredients in that side that lifted the William web Ellis

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Speaker 2: Trophy in ninety one.

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Speaker 6: Look, Jason I took over the captaincy in nineteen eighty eight.

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Speaker 6: In the first couple of years of captaining the Wallabies,

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Speaker 6: we could be very inconsistent. We could be fantastic one

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Speaker 6: Saturday and seven days later play like busted bums. What

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Speaker 6: I think really changed from that important victory at Wellington.

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Speaker 6: That's when we knew that we could beat the All

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Speaker 6: Blacks and we could beat anyone on our day, and

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Speaker 6: to me, we'd lost the Bledislow.

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Speaker 4: But that victory that.

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Speaker 6: Third Test in nineteen ninety was what changed everything. And

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Speaker 6: I think there's a little bit of comparison with this

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Speaker 6: Australian team now and the young leader Harry Wilson. Having

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Speaker 6: won that Third Test, we'd lost the series against the Lines,

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Speaker 6: but that third Test victory I compared to our victory

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Speaker 6: nineteen ninety at Wellington, because this team led by Harry

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Speaker 6: now knows that they can beat anyone on their day.

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Speaker 6: They proved that at Ella's Park. They of course, you know,

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Speaker 6: played well against Argentina. To beat the lines in that

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Speaker 6: third Test convincingly was fantastic and that's why I think

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Speaker 6: this team will be right up for this match this

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Speaker 6: afternoon at Eden Park. But to get back to what

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Speaker 6: I was saying, it was really we had to change

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Speaker 6: the culture of that team that was very inconsistent to

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Speaker 6: a team that is what I call process driven. Understand

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Speaker 6: the process individually and collectively. It goes way beyond the

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Speaker 6: eighty minutes, but understand what it is in the eighty minutes,

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Speaker 6: and we became a very consistent team. I think about

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Speaker 6: the last twenty five Tests I played in the nineties,

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Speaker 6: we won about twenty two of them, and it was

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Speaker 6: really that consistency that we developed over that sort of

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Speaker 6: crucial two three year period.

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Speaker 2: Is it a source of frustration that the Bledisloe hasn't

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Speaker 2: been on your side of the ditch now for over

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Speaker 2: two decades?

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Speaker 4: Oh, look, I'm pretty sure it is.

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Speaker 6: I mean, ask any player who's lost to the All

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Speaker 6: Blacks and hasn't won a Bledisloe, Ask any Australian fan,

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Speaker 6: ask the families of the players. Anyone connected to rugby

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Speaker 6: is hugely frustrated that the Bledisloe hasn't been one. It's

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Speaker 6: disappointing these days that you know, you don't have three

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Speaker 6: Test series and so you guys only have to win

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Speaker 6: the one match to retain it.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, this is critical.

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Speaker 6: That's why today, this afternoon will be so critical for

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Speaker 6: Australian rugby that we can go to Perth next weekend

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Speaker 6: with a live series and have the chance of winning

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Speaker 6: that Bledisloe because it is one of the great trophies

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Speaker 6: in world sport and we just haven't had it for

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Speaker 6: over two decades.

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Speaker 2: Just had a question come through for you, Nick. I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure whether you're able to answer it, but can

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Speaker 2: you please ask Nick his thoughts on cam Roy Guard

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Speaker 2: and where he sees him in the ranks. Of halfbacks

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Speaker 2: around the world at the moment. Have you seen itmit

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Speaker 2: of Cameroy gat No.

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Speaker 6: Look, I was saying to your producer before our chat

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Speaker 6: today that I really haven't seen too much of New

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Speaker 6: Zealand rugby this year, and so I haven't that I'll

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Speaker 6: I'll be very interested to see how he goes against

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Speaker 6: Tate McDermott.

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Speaker 4: How old is cam Just out of interest?

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Speaker 2: He's twenty four, twenty three, twenty.

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Speaker 6: Four, okay, and he obviously deserves his jersey and a

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Speaker 6: lot of New Zealander is a raving about him.

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Speaker 4: I suspect absolutely.

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Speaker 2: You know, he's well, he hasn't been in the team

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Speaker 2: for the last four Test matches. Getting him back for

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Speaker 2: this one has been seen as a huge boost because

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Speaker 2: he already has sort of opened up a gap between

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Speaker 2: he and the next best in his position. So yeah, no,

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Speaker 2: I think that Battle of the Nines this afternoon, as

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Speaker 2: a lot of the battles will be nick will be

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Speaker 2: will be crucial. Yeah, yeah, just to finish and you

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Speaker 2: mention it there, what would it mean to win this

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Speaker 2: game this afternoon, for the Wallabies to take the series

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Speaker 2: to a sold out Perth, and perhaps for the Wallabies

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Speaker 2: to get their hands back on that coveted price.

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Speaker 6: It means everything to us, so I can assure you

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Speaker 6: of that. And you know, it's been quite amazing since that,

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Speaker 6: or since the success of the line series financially and

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Speaker 6: also from the way our team played to see this

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Speaker 6: team that seems very close. It's not just the team,

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Speaker 6: it's the squad that Harry Wilson talks about. I think

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Speaker 6: Wilson's developing into one of the great captains. I think

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Speaker 6: he'll be around for a long time injury pending, but

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Speaker 6: it means so much to Australian supporters and the talk

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Speaker 6: just in the streets that this team is finally developing

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Speaker 6: into something that could compete for Bledisloy Cups. And you know,

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Speaker 6: obviously in two years time, World Cup being hosted here

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Speaker 6: in Australia, and everyone is just very very excited after

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Speaker 6: the we plummeted to the depths of the twenty twenty

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Speaker 6: three World Cup, not making the quarter finals. So there's

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Speaker 6: a very good sentiment drifting around the streets of Sydney

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Speaker 6: and Brisbane and Perth and Melbourne that this team is

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Speaker 6: starting to aim up. They really can challenge the best

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Speaker 6: in the world on their day and it's all about

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Speaker 6: that consistency.

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Speaker 4: But this is huge for us.

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Speaker 6: There'll be hundreds of thousands of people glued to the tv'

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Speaker 6: Eden park this afternoon at three o'clock Australian Eastern Seaboard time.

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Speaker 4: I can assure you of that, Jason.

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Speaker 2: Wonderful stuff. Nick. It's so great to have you leading

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Speaker 2: us off on such a big day on the side

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Speaker 2: of the Tasman. All the best to you and thanks

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Speaker 2: for you at your time and your analysis the softernoon.

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Speaker 2: Really appreciate it.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, pleasure Jason. I hope it's a fantastic afternoon. Obviously

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Speaker 6: we need one result for you guys, not to retain

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Speaker 6: it but to your listeners enjoy the spectacle.

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Speaker 2: Wonderful stuff. Nick, now cheers to you too, mate, Nick

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Speaker 2: Farr Jones. There Gie, what a great man joining us

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Speaker 2: to lead us off here on bled Us Slow Cup

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Speaker 2: day in Auckland. Gwynn, says Jason say Heider. Nick, My

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Speaker 2: daughter and I caught up with him for a bear

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Speaker 2: at Circular Key in Sydney a few years ago. The

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Speaker 2: nicest man, a true gentleman. Yeah, you can absolutely tell,

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Speaker 2: can't your Nigel, says Nick Varr Jones. Sounds like an

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Speaker 2: absolute champ. Is he really Australian? I think he probably is, Nigel,

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Speaker 2: I think he probably is. But yeah, but I get

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Speaker 2: where you're coming from.

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Speaker 1: For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live

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Speaker 1: to news Talk said B weekends from midday, or follow

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Speaker 1: the podcast on iHeartRadio