Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Louise Aria and I'm Francesca Rudgin and welcome
Speaker 1: to our final episode for season five at our New
Speaker 1: Zealand Herald podcast, The Little Things.
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us in this podcast. We sit down
Speaker 2: with the experts in their fields to unpack the little
Speaker 2: things that can help us navigate life at our agent
Speaker 2: stage and really at any agent stage, where he had
Speaker 2: to cut through the overload of information and get to
Speaker 2: the nitty gritty other things that impact us every day.
Speaker 1: So at the beginning of the year, Louise, I don't
Speaker 1: know if you remember, but we were talking about what
Speaker 1: we'd love to get out of this podcast and things
Speaker 1: to work on throughout the year, and I said to you,
Speaker 1: I made a comment about my shitty attention span. Do
Speaker 1: you remember this? Like it had been summer, and I
Speaker 1: was really excited. I had this pile of books to
Speaker 1: read and I was really looking forward to just tearing
Speaker 1: into them. And I'd pick up a book and then
Speaker 1: five minutes later I'd be picking up my phone going, Oh,
Speaker 1: what's happened in the world, what's the news, which was
Speaker 1: absolutely ridiculous because it's Christmas and there is no news,
Speaker 1: nothing happens and it didn't matter how many days I
Speaker 1: did this and there was still no news. I just
Speaker 1: found myself completely distracted, so easily distracted. And I was
Speaker 1: quite surprised by this.
Speaker 2: And it's not like you, because you love a book.
Speaker 1: I know that's the thing. That's why it took me
Speaker 1: by That's what took me by surprise. Nobody's surprised about
Speaker 1: my lack of attention span. Oh, I have a lack
Speaker 1: of attention span in other areas of my life that
Speaker 1: they were already obvious. I think that's probably why it's Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't hasn't improved.
Speaker 2: How is it now? You know?
Speaker 1: It has improved immensely, But that's because but I had
Speaker 1: to do a bit of work on it, like I
Speaker 1: had to, and mostly it's improved around my work day,
Speaker 1: Like I've actually gone, I'm going to sit and I'm
Speaker 1: going to get this task completed before I look at
Speaker 1: emails and before I pick up my phone and respond
Speaker 1: to texts, and before I'm distracted by other people needing
Speaker 1: other things from me. So I actually had to put
Speaker 1: a few boundaries and sort of just put some structure
Speaker 1: around my work, and actually I am getting it all
Speaker 1: done a lot faster, and I really enjoyed a lot
Speaker 1: of my work is writing, whether it's podcasts or film
Speaker 1: reviews and things like that, and I love getting into
Speaker 1: the flow of it. And I was noticing that every
Speaker 1: time I was getting distracted by something else or someone
Speaker 1: needing something else, I'd just kind of I'd stop and
Speaker 1: I'd get out of that flow. So it's yeah, no,
Speaker 1: it's that's worked well, but I still struggle with the book.
Speaker 2: Maybe you should try and write one.
Speaker 1: God, no, you've got a pretty good attention span, though.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's just no mine has. So you've
Speaker 2: improved through the year. Mine has actually gotten the worse.
Speaker 2: When I say improved, it's just well, I mean if
Speaker 2: I do things like set in my phone for forty
Speaker 2: five minutes, right, put a thing on timer forty five minutes,
Speaker 2: or do a block of work if I have one task.
Speaker 2: But I think the difference is I've got more, As
Speaker 2: you know, I used to work on one project at
Speaker 2: a time. Now I'm working on that's my problem. I've
Speaker 2: got a whole lot of different jobs. Yeah, and that's
Speaker 2: where it all disappears. You give something some attention for
Speaker 2: a little while, and then somebody needs you for something
Speaker 2: on something else, or and it might be FTU wise
Speaker 2: divided into days that I get paid by which project,
Speaker 2: but it's not the same in my head, perhaps I
Speaker 2: should do it that way, but it doesn't work.
Speaker 1: And then I work from home, so I'm distracted by
Speaker 1: I'll just quickly do that laundry. Oh, what's in the pantry?
Speaker 1: What's in the fridge that I don't know? The fridge
Speaker 1: in the pantry are hugely distracting.
Speaker 2: I'm so much worse if I work from home. Frenchhyse
Speaker 2: Spirt's ridiculous. And again I've got something that just got
Speaker 2: a deadline, and I'm fine on a deadline. But you
Speaker 2: know where I noticed? I joined a gym, and it
Speaker 2: was the university gym, which is stunning if you get
Speaker 2: a chance to see, it's beautiful. But it's full of
Speaker 2: really young people, which was fine. I could have stayed there,
Speaker 2: but it just ended up taking up too much time
Speaker 2: in my day. But you know how exercises changed, right,
Speaker 2: so now we're lifting heavier, fewer sets and fewer reps.
Speaker 2: But between the reps, between sets, you're supposed to have
Speaker 2: a two minute rest, right, according to my son, Strengthen
Speaker 2: and gndising coach, Mum, you need that two minutes. You
Speaker 2: need to be readio. Now, why can't I just sit
Speaker 2: or stand up and eat someone else use a machine
Speaker 2: or something and just steering to know for a couple
Speaker 2: of minutes. I can't do it.
Speaker 1: And you're always on your phone or something.
Speaker 2: Everybody is, everybody is you just shuffle to the end
Speaker 2: of the ever read is it your machine you're on
Speaker 2: and don't make eye contact no matter what, and just
Speaker 2: look at your phone until that time is up and
Speaker 2: then you go back to your exercise. It's like, I
Speaker 2: don't know, I'm a self interrupter. I'm my own worst
Speaker 2: enemy and I'm over it and I want to be
Speaker 2: free of it.
Speaker 1: Lets you're honest about it. We're own own worst enemies.
Speaker 2: So we're at that point of the year, aren't we that.
Speaker 2: You know a lot of people are feeling quite tired.
Speaker 2: The year is winding down, and yet we feel like
Speaker 2: we're winding up because we've just realized it's nearly the
Speaker 2: end of the year and there's ape too. The pressure
Speaker 2: is on to complete work projects, take off, end of
Speaker 2: your events before the beautiful summer holidays. We hope it
Speaker 2: seemed like a good time to talk about focus and
Speaker 2: our attention spans and help us get to the end
Speaker 2: of the year in one piece.
Speaker 1: Yeah So, back in twenty twenty three, I covered this
Speaker 1: topic on newstalk Z'B with a fabulous academic and author,
Speaker 1: Gloria Mark. Gloria is a Chancellor's Professor of Informatics at
Speaker 1: the University of California. She has a PhD in psychology
Speaker 1: and studies the impact of digital media on our lives.
Speaker 1: Her researchocuses on digital devices and the role they play
Speaker 1: in multitasking, interruptions, and our mood. Gloria has written a book.
Speaker 1: It's called Attention Span, Finding Focus for Fulfilling Life. And
Speaker 1: Gloria Mark is with us now, welcome, Good to have
Speaker 1: you with us.
Speaker 3: It's very nice to be here.
Speaker 2: So, Gloria, I mean, before you join us, Francisca and
Speaker 2: I we're just talking about our oscillating attention spans, will
Speaker 2: be the most polite way of putting it. Mine seems
Speaker 2: to have gotten worse. Francisca is maybe a tiny little
Speaker 2: bit better from having worked on it a bit. How
Speaker 2: have our lives changed in the modern digital area era?
Speaker 2: And is that the driver for our lack of attention.
Speaker 3: I would say it, yet it's because you mentioned I've
Speaker 3: been studying attention for a long time. I've been empirically
Speaker 3: tracking attention, and over a twenty year period, our attention
Speaker 3: spans on screens declined. Back around twenty two thousand and four,
Speaker 3: the hour averaged about two and a half minutes on
Speaker 3: a screen before people switched to something else, and starting
Speaker 3: from around twenty sixteen, they were averaging forty seven seconds.
Speaker 3: And these studies have been repeated multiple times, so our
Speaker 3: attention spans have declined.
Speaker 2: Forty seven seconds, not even a minute. We can't even
Speaker 2: give something a minute now.
Speaker 3: Now that's the average, but if you look at the median,
Speaker 3: the midpoint of all the data, it's worse. It's forty seconds.
Speaker 2: Can you just put that in perspective? If I'm just
Speaker 2: imagining myself sitting at my desk with my screen screens
Speaker 2: multiple because I can't just say one screen anymore in
Speaker 2: front of me. Do you mean I'm looking? So just
Speaker 2: take me, make me average most people do. I'm staring
Speaker 2: at my screen for forty seven seconds, and I want
Speaker 2: I get a thing on my phone so I look
Speaker 2: at it. I'm just trying to make this relatable.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you suddenly switch look at your phone, then
Speaker 3: you go back, you're trying to read an article. Maybe
Speaker 3: you can pay attention for two or three minutes, but
Speaker 3: then all of a sudden, you've got texting, You check
Speaker 3: your email, you decided you want to check news, and
Speaker 3: so you have this flurry of screen changes and then
Speaker 3: maybe you go back, you read it, maybe spend another
Speaker 3: couple of minutes on the article. So it's you know,
Speaker 3: it varies, there's variability, but we're talking about the average,
Speaker 3: and again we talk about the midpoint. Right. Half the
Speaker 3: data means is that our attention spans are longer than
Speaker 3: forty seconds, but half the data shows that our attention
Speaker 3: spans are shorter than forty seconds.
Speaker 1: So if you take those these decades that you've been
Speaker 1: sort of tracking our screen use in things, Gloria, are
Speaker 1: you surprised by these results and what you see today
Speaker 1: or did you very much anticipate that this is the
Speaker 1: way things were going to go.
Speaker 3: I was surprised. I was initially surprised when I first
Speaker 3: started tracking attention because when I looked at all of
Speaker 3: our activities, not just paying attention to a screen, but
Speaker 3: how long people had interactions in the workplace, and how
Speaker 3: often they read documents. That was every three minutes that
Speaker 3: people were switching activities, and if we just looked at attention,
Speaker 3: that was two and a half minutes. That surprised me.
Speaker 3: I thought it was going to be like ten minutes.
Speaker 3: So having had that first shock, I guess you know,
Speaker 3: I was less surprised to see that they had diminished.
Speaker 2: Is it a respective of age?
Speaker 3: So yes, In the workplace, most of our workers were
Speaker 3: between twenty five and forty five or twenty five and fifty,
Speaker 3: we didn't see any age differences. And the average attention
Speaker 3: span of young people in college was forty eight seconds,
Speaker 3: so there really wasn't any difference there.
Speaker 1: Gloria, how do you track attention?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we use a software that can track when
Speaker 3: someone clicks on a window to bring it in the forefront. Now,
Speaker 3: this is a proxy of where we're paying attention. It's
Speaker 3: not perfect, but it's it's very good, and the assumption
Speaker 3: is that if a window is in the forefront, that
Speaker 3: you're paying attention. Right. It's not perfect, of course, but
Speaker 3: it does give us a sense of screen changes. So
Speaker 3: every time someone clicks to bring some other window to
Speaker 3: the forefront. Then you know, that's what we capture.
Speaker 2: Okay, So if we we can either blame ourselves and
Speaker 2: and you know, just tell ourselves we're bad, we're useless,
Speaker 2: well plus what's wrong with us? Or we can really
Speaker 2: and I'm sure we've done this, figure out what it
Speaker 2: is that's driving this change and attention span. It can't
Speaker 2: be our faultually.
Speaker 3: No, it's it's not. I mean, we were not innocent,
Speaker 3: to be honest. But there are a lot of factors
Speaker 3: going on. So there are algorithms and as you know,
Speaker 3: every time we go on the web, we click on
Speaker 3: things that we like, we visit sites, and all of
Speaker 3: our web activity is captured and profiles of our interests
Speaker 3: are created. And these profiles then are what tech companies use,
Speaker 3: ad remarketing companies use to gear information to us. And
Speaker 3: so of course, if it's something you're interested in, it's
Speaker 3: it's hard to resist. So, and algorithms are really quite
Speaker 3: sophisticated and powerful in capturing attention. And of course they
Speaker 3: some of them appealed to very basic emotions like surprise
Speaker 3: and excitement and anger, and it's it's very hard to
Speaker 3: not be attracted to information that incites these kinds of emotions.
Speaker 2: So there's that, because sorry, I'm just thinking. An example
Speaker 2: of that would be, you know, we get our news
Speaker 2: online now, right, So I go to open my usual
Speaker 2: source of news from a no online newspaper, and before
Speaker 2: I know it, I'm looking at my favorite braind of
Speaker 2: running shoe and then I'm saying, oh, is it on sale?
Speaker 2: Could I get it even cheaper? And I've gone down
Speaker 2: that yeah, at least than forty seconds.
Speaker 3: In my book, I write about a scenario about how
Speaker 3: I'm being tracked by boots because what happened to me
Speaker 3: once was I looked at a pair of boots and
Speaker 3: you know, I don't know, these are interesting? But then
Speaker 3: I clicked away, and every time I went to a website,
Speaker 3: an image of those boots would appear. They were taunting me,
Speaker 3: you know they would, you know they would, yeah, And
Speaker 3: you know it was it was hard to to not
Speaker 3: pay attention to them. The only way out would be
Speaker 3: to purchase those boots.
Speaker 1: So yes, but I quite like the expression you use
Speaker 1: being tracked by, because you do feel like you're being
Speaker 1: a bit stalked sometimes. I mean, I wonder if that's
Speaker 1: quite a good way to think about it, just to
Speaker 1: keep your head in the right place. So you mentioned
Speaker 1: the algorithms because you've got we've got this personal technology
Speaker 1: which probably on its own could be really useful and
Speaker 1: valuable in our lives. But then we're we've added things
Speaker 1: to it. And I'm presuming it's the adit the addition
Speaker 1: of the things like algorithms, and that that is the
Speaker 1: reason for this lack a focus.
Speaker 3: But also there there are things that are just part
Speaker 3: of our humanity that we can't avoid. For example, social dynamics.
Speaker 3: We're social creatures and you know in real life we're
Speaker 3: attracted to other people. We have pure pressure. There's we
Speaker 3: deal in social capital. So someone does a favor to you,
Speaker 3: you want to do a favor back. So there's a
Speaker 3: number of these kinds of social dynamics that influence us
Speaker 3: when we're online. So for example, why why do we
Speaker 3: check email? Well, you might get that really important message
Speaker 3: and then but you also want to answer it because
Speaker 3: maybe you want that person to be able to do
Speaker 3: a favor for you someday and answer your email. We
Speaker 3: answer text messages because we want to maintain social capital,
Speaker 3: so and slack the same kind of thing. So there
Speaker 3: are all kinds of social dynamics that are just wrapped
Speaker 3: up into how we use our tech.
Speaker 1: How long if we have been distracted, how long do
Speaker 1: we know how long it takes for us to get
Speaker 1: back on task?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we had measured this in terms of projects,
Speaker 3: so I have to I have to unwrap this. So
Speaker 3: we switch our attention every forty seven seconds. But some
Speaker 3: of that attention switching is within the same project. So
Speaker 3: if I'm writing a I might be switching continually, but
Speaker 3: it's all about the same paper, so it's the same topic.
Speaker 3: And we switch projects about every eleven minutes or so.
Speaker 3: But when we switch out of a project, then it
Speaker 3: takes about twenty three and a half minutes to be
Speaker 3: able to resume work in that interrupted project.
Speaker 2: And in case again I need a visual, So we're
Speaker 2: not sitting there for twenty three minutes going and then
Speaker 2: at twenty three minutes where we are just not effective,
Speaker 2: we're not productive on that task. Is that what it is?
Speaker 3: What we're actually doing is we're switching out of one
Speaker 3: project into another project. We work on that and then
Speaker 3: we switch into another one, and then this is like
Speaker 3: the pattern of the data. Then we start to switch
Speaker 3: again into another one, So we go back to the
Speaker 3: first one.
Speaker 1: Right, so you're doing eleven minutes here, eleven minutes there,
Speaker 1: eleven minutes there.
Speaker 3: Okay, exactly right, exactly So by the time you resume
Speaker 3: that interrupted work, the original project, your mind has been elsewhere,
Speaker 3: and then elsewhere again, and then again, and then you
Speaker 3: go back. So it's very hard to reconstruct the work
Speaker 3: that you had originally been doing.
Speaker 1: What do we do about that, Gloria? It seems to
Speaker 1: me just understanding or maybe just being a little bit
Speaker 1: more aware when we sit down at our desks tomorrow
Speaker 1: or today of how we're working is probably the first step.
Speaker 1: In order to do anything about our attention. You probably
Speaker 1: have to kind of be a little bit honest about
Speaker 1: you to yourself with your own attention.
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course we do. We have to be aware
Speaker 3: of the problem, the fact that we have a hard
Speaker 3: time paying attention, the fact that there are so many distractions.
Speaker 3: So absolutely that's the first step.
Speaker 2: It's funny, isn't it, Because I don't know the physiological
Speaker 2: stuff around that don't mean things, but we think we're
Speaker 2: getting We think that that's quite fun right, going from
Speaker 2: project to project or going oh, that looks more and
Speaker 2: that's shinier. I'll have a look at that. I'll have
Speaker 2: a look at that. But actually, what Francesca is talking
Speaker 2: about is learning yourself and adapting and maybe having a
Speaker 2: strategy around it is actually much more self soothing than
Speaker 2: the sort of frenetic changing around all the time. Would
Speaker 2: that be right?
Speaker 3: Absolutely?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So you know, people think that it helps our performance
Speaker 3: to be able to multitask, right, People think, wow, I'm
Speaker 3: a great multitasker. I can get so much done. But
Speaker 3: the reality is that it actually harms our performance. But
Speaker 3: let me first explain that multitasking doesn't mean doing two
Speaker 3: things exactly at the same time, right. Humans are not
Speaker 3: wired to be able to do that. Our brains just
Speaker 3: don't work that way unless one of those things is automatic.
Speaker 3: So you can walk and text at the same time.
Speaker 3: Because walking is automatic, we're not thinking about it, we're
Speaker 3: thinking about texting. But as soon as you know, I'm
Speaker 3: in New York City and we have crazy bicyclists, and
Speaker 3: as soon as a bicyclist tries to grind me over,
Speaker 3: I will stop texting and pay attention to that bicyclist.
Speaker 3: So all of a sudden, it's walking is no longer automatic.
Speaker 3: But back to multitasking, what we're actually doing is switching
Speaker 3: our attention rapidly. So when we're working on multiple tasks
Speaker 3: and we think we're doing it at the same time,
Speaker 3: our attention is actually switching among these different tasks and
Speaker 3: we were We don't do that very well because that's
Speaker 3: not how our brains are wired to work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I've done a bit of a self
Speaker 2: experiment on that over a long period of time before
Speaker 2: I realized it wasn't working for me. And quite often
Speaker 2: it is in to podcasts, whilst I was doing a
Speaker 2: less well what I considered a job that needed less attention.
Speaker 2: That was perhaps I thought it was automatic, right, And
Speaker 2: I'd often notice I hadn't caught anything if I was
Speaker 2: concentrating on the work, hadn't caught anything of the podcast,
Speaker 2: and I'd have to keep rewinding or just making it worse,
Speaker 2: or I'd made an error on my data entry and
Speaker 2: I'd have to fix that, so that what you know,
Speaker 2: ends up regardless, ends up taking twice the time.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, whereas.
Speaker 1: I'm completely different. I can't listen to a podcast and work.
Speaker 1: I have to do one or the other. I can't.
Speaker 1: I you know, clearly I can't do that. So true,
Speaker 1: So have we worked out if we are multitasking and
Speaker 1: we are going from one thing to another, it's less
Speaker 1: productive than if we were just focusing on one thing.
Speaker 1: I'm presuming we've worked that out.
Speaker 3: There are three reasons why it's less productive. So the
Speaker 3: first reason is we make more errors. And we know
Speaker 3: this from decades of studies in the laboratory that when
Speaker 3: people are you know, they're given a task and they're
Speaker 3: supposed to switch back and forth between them, they just
Speaker 3: simply make more errors. Number two, it takes longer to
Speaker 3: do any one task. So imagine that you were to
Speaker 3: work on a task through to completion and then you
Speaker 3: begin another task. Well, we would do pretty well if
Speaker 3: that's how we worked, but that's not usually how people work.
Speaker 3: They usually switch among these different tasks and then you
Speaker 3: have to do redundant work, You get interference, you forget
Speaker 3: where you are. It just doesn't work very well. It's
Speaker 3: like having an internal whiteboard in your mind, and every
Speaker 3: time you do a new task, you have to write
Speaker 3: the information you need on your mind's whiteboard, right, and
Speaker 3: so you're working on a task, you've got that information
Speaker 3: written inside your mind, and then you suddenly switch, so
Speaker 3: you have to erase that whiteboard and rape something new,
Speaker 3: and then you switch again. And what we're doing when
Speaker 3: we're switching so fast is we're writing and erasing and
Speaker 3: writing and erasing, and it's just not very efficient.
Speaker 2: So if we take it outside of the workplace and
Speaker 2: we're trying to have leash a time, because I know
Speaker 2: I self sabotage even my own leisure time, if you
Speaker 2: know what I mean, Like, why do we Franciski is
Speaker 2: the example when we were talking before you came on
Speaker 2: about reading a book and then thinking, oh, better, see
Speaker 2: what's happening, and then we'll pick up your phone. Is
Speaker 2: it the same thing, like why do we do that
Speaker 2: to ourselves in the leisure time? What's driving that?
Speaker 3: It's habituation. We're habituated to keep switching our attention. And
Speaker 3: I've been interviewing a number of people recently about their
Speaker 3: tech us, and a lot of people have been reporting
Speaker 3: that it's very hard for them to read a book.
Speaker 3: They used to be able to read and spend a
Speaker 3: long time with a book, and it's very very hard
Speaker 3: for them. And I think it's that they're just habituated
Speaker 3: to switching so much and that it's carrying over into
Speaker 3: what they do off likee In trying to read a book.
Speaker 2: No, I can't run the pavement anymore without having music
Speaker 2: in my ears. But that's not distraction. I just don't
Speaker 2: want to hear my breath or my feet hitting their pavement.
Speaker 2: That's good distraction.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the little things. And our guest on
Speaker 1: the podcast today is Gloria Mark talking about our decreasing
Speaker 1: attention spans and what's behind it and how we can
Speaker 1: rEFInd our focus. We'll be back shortly. Okay, So we've
Speaker 1: identified that this might all be sounding very familiar to
Speaker 1: a lot of people and they're probably going, actually, that's
Speaker 1: really this is really interesting. So what do we Where
Speaker 1: do we start, Gloria when it comes to trying to
Speaker 1: work on our attention span and you know, lengthen these
Speaker 1: periods of time we're focused.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the first thing that we can do is
Speaker 3: to be aware of these times when we're automatically switching.
Speaker 3: So we're just not conscious of switching. So think about
Speaker 3: when you have an urge to check the news, or
Speaker 3: an urge to check social media or check an e
Speaker 3: commerce site. A lot of those things we do are automatic.
Speaker 3: We're just we do them automatically. We're not conscious of them.
Speaker 3: Picking up your phone to swipe it open, right, It's
Speaker 3: a habit that we've developed. And so the very first
Speaker 3: step is to start to become aware of the automaticity
Speaker 3: in our actions. And then what we want to do
Speaker 3: is we want to make these automatic actions more conscious.
Speaker 3: We want to be cond just when we're doing them.
Speaker 3: So what I have done is I probe myself. And
Speaker 3: I call this meta awareness, which means literally means being
Speaker 3: aware of what you're doing as it's unfolding. And so
Speaker 3: if I'm working and I suddenly have an urge to
Speaker 3: check the news, and these days there's just a lot
Speaker 3: of news going on, especially in my country, I will
Speaker 3: probe myself, do I really need to check the news now?
Speaker 3: So I have learned to become aware of when I'm
Speaker 3: about to switch. And it takes practice, but you can
Speaker 3: do it. And then I basically ask myself, do I
Speaker 3: need to do this right now? Chances are no, really not,
Speaker 3: And so then I can become more intentional in my actions. Okay,
Speaker 3: I don't need to check the news right now, And
Speaker 3: I can make a plant and I could say, Okay,
Speaker 3: I am going to work for another twenty minutes, and
Speaker 3: then I can reward myself and check the news. So
Speaker 3: it's really about becoming more aware of your actions to
Speaker 3: help yourself regulation in what you're doing when you're using tech.
Speaker 1: I've had quite an interesting experience this year, Gloria, and
Speaker 1: I think this is one reason why maybe my attention
Speaker 1: I've been able to work a little bit on my
Speaker 1: attention span is And the listeners will just giggle because
Speaker 1: I've mentioned this a few times, but I've started doing pottery,
Speaker 1: and so maybe once or twice a week, I go
Speaker 1: to a studio and for a couple of hours, I
Speaker 1: just focus. I find I love it so so so much,
Speaker 1: and so I find myself focusing on creating something. I'm
Speaker 1: using my hands. I'm doing something completely different. I don't
Speaker 1: have music in my ease, I have nothing. I just
Speaker 1: focus on what I'm doing. And I think that's the
Speaker 1: closest I've got into a state of flow in a
Speaker 1: long time. And because in a way, because I've had
Speaker 1: that experience, I've kind of noticed that I can hold
Speaker 1: my attention span and other parts of my life longer,
Speaker 1: for longer. But I'm going to be honest, I mean
Speaker 1: I don't have that same sense of flow in other
Speaker 1: parts of my life, like you know, sitting down to
Speaker 1: work or something like that. It's quite a unique focus
Speaker 1: or kind of focus, isn't it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's wonderful that you're doing something like pottery,
Speaker 3: and absolutely once you get into the practice of paying
Speaker 3: attention to something, getting immersed in it, getting into a
Speaker 3: flow state, it absolutely can benefit you in other aspects.
Speaker 3: Now in terms of flow, you know, I've been studying
Speaker 3: information workers knowledge workers for a long time. It's very
Speaker 3: rare for them to get into a state of flow
Speaker 3: in their typical work because the kind of work they
Speaker 3: do is just not conducive for getting into flow. It's more,
Speaker 3: you know, analytical kind of work. But artists, musicians, people
Speaker 3: in sports, it's it's very conducive to get into flow.
Speaker 3: My first career was being an artist, and so I
Speaker 3: would get into flow regularly. I knew what it was
Speaker 3: like to be in flow. When I went into psychology,
Speaker 3: didn't happen very often. It's pretty rare. Doesn't mean that
Speaker 3: there's anything wrong with it. It's a different kind of
Speaker 3: reward that you feel right, you get fulfilled but in
Speaker 3: a different way. It's not going to be a flow experience.
Speaker 2: I think occasionally when I'm running, a can get in
Speaker 2: to flow where I don't notice the time passing and
Speaker 2: i've and I go, wow, that was that was crazy
Speaker 2: and you really look for that, but it's not doesn't
Speaker 2: happen every time. So probably mindfulness is what I do.
Speaker 2: And when I was doing that regularly, i'd have the
Speaker 2: same thing as Francesca. I would I wouldn't notice other
Speaker 2: parts of my life felt smooth. I have this sort
Speaker 2: of thing on my pin to my desk that somebody
Speaker 2: I was in Vancouver actually and somebody there was a
Speaker 2: Buddhist on side of the road. He was handing them out,
Speaker 2: and it just says works smoothly, lifetime piece, and I think,
Speaker 2: as in peace, I think I need to put it
Speaker 2: right between my two screens because I remember, this is
Speaker 2: so beautiful. It's just such a nice, meditative sort of thought.
Speaker 2: But I do feel like we've been invaded. And I
Speaker 2: was just thinking about the automation, about the picking up
Speaker 2: or responding even you know, even our watches tell us
Speaker 2: that we've got a message. And I was thinking about
Speaker 2: driving and how you know we're actually risking our lives
Speaker 2: by being distracted. It's it's bonkers, it is, it is bonkers. Yeah,
Speaker 2: what is?
Speaker 1: What would you define good attention span as.
Speaker 3: So in terms of a number that I can't I
Speaker 3: can't give you a number because there's so much individual variation,
Speaker 3: But I would say it should be long enough that
Speaker 3: you should be able to accomplish what you feel you
Speaker 3: need to accomplish. Forty seven seconds is too short. I
Speaker 3: think spending an hour at a time is probably too long,
Speaker 3: unless unless you're in a state of flow and you're
Speaker 3: totally immersed, or you're reading a book and you're so
Speaker 3: caught up in the story, then that's perfectly fine. But
Speaker 3: it's really important for us to take breaks so we
Speaker 3: you know, we shouldn't strive for just unbroken, long periods
Speaker 3: of focus because that's not healthy either. And it's also
Speaker 3: not how our brains are built, because we have limited
Speaker 3: cognitive resources and they drain. They drain when we're switching
Speaker 3: our attention, they drain when we're in an intense state
Speaker 3: of focus. Not for flow, but you know, if you're
Speaker 3: doing some kind of analysis, right, you can't have our
Speaker 3: unbroken focus. So it's really important to take breaks and
Speaker 3: let our minds replenishe.
Speaker 1: You mentioned it being healthy there, and I just want
Speaker 1: to is there a connection between attention and strength or
Speaker 1: a mood.
Speaker 3: Absolutely? Yeah, So when they go hand in hand in
Speaker 3: the sense that when you're stressed, it's very hard to
Speaker 3: pay attention. It interferes with our ability to pay attention,
Speaker 3: and so you know, there's we did a study where
Speaker 3: we looked at different personality traits and there's one personality
Speaker 3: trait which is called neuroticism, and that's that's a trait
Speaker 3: where people tend to be stressful and they tend to
Speaker 3: replay events over and over in their minds. So you
Speaker 3: just had a talk with your colleague and it didn't
Speaker 3: go well, and you keep replaying that in your mind.
Speaker 3: That's what neurotics tend to do. And we find that
Speaker 3: neurotics have shorter attention spans then the none neurotics, right,
Speaker 3: because when you're replaying events in your mind, it interferes
Speaker 3: with your ability to pay attention to the task at hand.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure how much you've gone into this, but
Speaker 2: is there a point at which we need to regulate this?
Speaker 2: If people are not able to we can all take
Speaker 2: responsibility for our lack of attention and work on all
Speaker 2: of these fantastic things that you've been sharing with us today.
Speaker 2: Is there a point that we go we lay it
Speaker 2: at the feet of some of the people who are
Speaker 2: actively trying to distract us with their algorithms and everything else,
Speaker 2: and say, you know, this is not good for humankind
Speaker 2: as a in general, and it's terrible for productivity. I
Speaker 2: can only imagine there are reasons to regulate for this.
Speaker 3: There are, and I'm an advocate for this kind of regulation,
Speaker 3: but it's an uphill about and if we wait for that,
Speaker 3: then we're really gonna be hurting ourselves. So I do
Speaker 3: think that in the meantime we need to take action.
Speaker 3: But I will tell you some positive types of regulation
Speaker 3: that we're seeing. Some countries have right to disconnect laws,
Speaker 3: like France has the ele comrie law, Ontario, Canada, I believe,
Speaker 3: the Philippines if I'm not mistaken. I believe Belgium, possibly
Speaker 3: Ireland if I recall correctly. These are laws which protect
Speaker 3: workers who do not answer electronic communications after work hours.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think Australia has done it too.
Speaker 3: Australia is good for good for Australia and it protects
Speaker 3: them and it allows them to psychological disconnect from work
Speaker 3: at the end of the day. And that's really important
Speaker 3: because we need an unbroken period of time where we're
Speaker 3: really disconnecting from work so that it helps protect against burnout. Right,
Speaker 3: burnout is it is at a high so is chronic stress.
Speaker 3: And so if people can have a period of time
Speaker 3: where they're just not dealing with work, they're better able
Speaker 3: to psychologically reconnect the next day. And what does that mean?
Speaker 3: That means being more engaged and being more motivated in work.
Speaker 1: Because you've got to wonder how much more we can take. Right,
Speaker 1: We're kind of at a saturation level when it comes
Speaker 1: to online content and our emails and apps and social
Speaker 1: media and devices and things like that.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, no, it's and it is really crazy, and
Speaker 3: there's there are so many different sources of distractions and
Speaker 3: there's always one more communication app that's being developed, So
Speaker 3: it is it is really crazy. And you know, I
Speaker 3: have a particular problem with slack. On the one hand,
Speaker 3: I mean the aim of it is very is very
Speaker 3: good because you can have direct messaging and answer queries
Speaker 3: from your colleagues really fast. But what happens is you
Speaker 3: end up getting a number of Slack channels, and you're
Speaker 3: on twenty thirty sixty different Slack channels, and you're always
Speaker 3: having to keep up and answer.
Speaker 1: I was talking about this at work the other day
Speaker 1: and someone was said to be, Oh, no, I've got
Speaker 1: a great ad, and I said, I'm not sure an
Speaker 1: app is the best way to solve an attention issue.
Speaker 1: But this little app had a character, Hank or someone,
Speaker 1: and he'd knit you a pair of socks or something
Speaker 1: so you didn't want to pick up. Its an animation,
Speaker 1: and it would you would go, Okay, I'm gonna I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna pick up my phone for thirty minutes, and
Speaker 1: so you'd set that on Hank, and Hank would start
Speaker 1: this little character would start knitting and everything, and if
Speaker 1: you picked up that, it could detect your sort of
Speaker 1: picking up. I think the phone and Hank would give
Speaker 1: you this look, going, your socks are gonna unravel if
Speaker 1: you kind of, you know, use your phone. But I thought, well,
Speaker 1: this is I suppose that's one way of creating a
Speaker 1: new habit. But I was kind of amused by the
Speaker 1: fact that took an app to stop you picking up
Speaker 1: your phone and look at a yeah yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, and it's also a distraction because you're thinking
Speaker 3: about the socks and raveling.
Speaker 1: How many pairs of socks can I get? And then
Speaker 1: then of course it works like an app. You get
Speaker 1: tokens and then you can buy oh you applauding to
Speaker 1: put on Hank's wall or something. I'm probably getting all
Speaker 1: the names completely.
Speaker 2: I see that. To me, my time are on my
Speaker 2: phone works adequately, Gloria. What about learning new skills? And
Speaker 2: I'm going to go back to the pottery here, folks,
Speaker 2: But if you learn new skills, can that help us
Speaker 2: kind of you know, make our brain be a little
Speaker 2: bit more focused.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. So. Our brains are producing new neurons all the
Speaker 3: time neurogenesis, and some of those neurons survive and some
Speaker 3: of them don't. That's that's natural. But we can help
Speaker 3: those neurons survive, some of them by doing challenging activities.
Speaker 3: And we know that when people take up learning a
Speaker 3: new language, or learning to play an instrument, or doing
Speaker 3: some mentally challenging activities like problems. So I think that
Speaker 3: it can help these these neurons survive. So it can
Speaker 3: help make our brains healthier, and we also know that
Speaker 3: it seems to have promise for delaying dementia and cognitive impairment.
Speaker 3: So it's really important for people to be challenging their minds.
Speaker 2: Do we need to worry that that young people's brains
Speaker 2: are because I know you know a little bit about neuroplasticity,
Speaker 2: But do we need to worry that pathways are being
Speaker 2: changed in young people's brains?
Speaker 3: Well, there's there are some people that worry about it,
Speaker 3: and there is some some research that suggests that young
Speaker 3: people's brains are being affected. There are some claims that
Speaker 3: young people act as though they have dementia. They don't
Speaker 3: have dementia, they don't, but their behavior might seem to
Speaker 3: have certain similar characteristics as people with dementia. But you know,
Speaker 3: it's hard to know. This is a huge experiment that
Speaker 3: we're in the digital age, and you know, is what's
Speaker 3: going to happen in twenty five years with people's minds.
Speaker 3: That's part of this experiment that we're going to see.
Speaker 1: It's quite a terrifying experiment. Flora, Yes, maybe we could
Speaker 1: sum up if you wouldn't mind, would you be able
Speaker 1: to just remind us of the little things that we
Speaker 1: can do to increase our focus and attention.
Speaker 3: Yes, so let me go back to this idea of
Speaker 3: practicing meta awareness is learning to become aware of when
Speaker 3: you're distracted, when you're doing these automatic habits, and probing
Speaker 3: yourself to ask yourself if is it necessary to do that,
Speaker 3: or if you're already let's say, on social media, to
Speaker 3: recognize that, hey, I've been there for some time, am
Speaker 3: I getting value? And if not leave, it's time to leave.
Speaker 3: We can also practice what's called forethought, which is if
Speaker 3: you're a person who's tempted by say social media, or
Speaker 3: you're a news junkie, imagine your day at the end
Speaker 3: of the day and have a visualization of where you
Speaker 3: want to be, where you see yourself at the end
Speaker 3: of the day, and how you want to feel. You know,
Speaker 3: what is your goal. My goal would be I want
Speaker 3: to be rewarded. I want to be fulfilled. I want
Speaker 3: to see myself on the couch reading, you know, being
Speaker 3: with my family. The last thing I want to do
Speaker 3: is still working on that report and it's ten o'clock
Speaker 3: at night. So having an image of how you see
Speaker 3: yourself at the end of the day can be very
Speaker 3: powerful to help keep keep you on track. Another thing
Speaker 3: we talked about taking breaks very important, taking breaks to
Speaker 3: stay replenished. If you can take a break outside in nature,
Speaker 3: that's the absolute best kind of break that we can take,
Speaker 3: because being in nature can really replenish us. It's also
Speaker 3: important to consider that our attention it waxes and wanes
Speaker 3: throughout the day, and this goes along with this idea
Speaker 3: that we have limited cognitive resources. Sometimes we have a lot,
Speaker 3: sometimes they're drained. But every person has their own personal
Speaker 3: rhythm of these peaks and valleys of attention, and you
Speaker 3: can get to learn when your peaks are, and probably
Speaker 3: you have a pretty good idea. Most people in our
Speaker 3: studies tend to have a peak mid morning and then
Speaker 3: another peak mid afternoon, but it varies if you're an
Speaker 3: early type. Your chronotype is an early type, or if
Speaker 3: your chronotype is a late type, your peaks and valleys
Speaker 3: will be a little bit different. But once you identify
Speaker 3: when your peaks and valleys are, you can plan to
Speaker 3: do those tasks that require the hardest work and the
Speaker 3: most creativity when your attention is at its peak. So
Speaker 3: for your peak times, you know, if I'm writing something,
Speaker 3: I'm going to make sure i'm writing. Usually it's faring
Speaker 3: around nine o'clock because that's when my peak time starts,
Speaker 3: and then I go into this valley, which is probably
Speaker 3: around close to lunchtime, and then that's the time to
Speaker 3: take a break and replenish. And the last thing you
Speaker 3: want to do is do email in your peak time.
Speaker 3: Don't want to do that in your peak time. You
Speaker 3: want to save it for hard work.
Speaker 2: That's fantastic advice.
Speaker 1: That's really good advice. Quite I was just sitting here
Speaker 1: thinking about my peaks and my valleys, and when you
Speaker 1: made that mention there about not doing your emails and
Speaker 1: your peakers, it's like, of course, you're just wasting all
Speaker 1: this really valuable time where it's got to go to
Speaker 1: the kind of the maybe the most challenging task of
Speaker 1: the day.
Speaker 2: Or yeah, yeah. I used to live by that old
Speaker 2: adage about eating the frog. If somebody told you at
Speaker 2: some point of the day, you've got to eat a frog,
Speaker 2: why would you not? Why would you sit around all
Speaker 2: day thinking about eating the frog. You just get up
Speaker 2: and eat the frog and then it's done. That's that's
Speaker 2: what I do. My most challenging to ask. What I
Speaker 2: love this is what.
Speaker 1: I love doing a podcast with Louise Gloria. I never
Speaker 1: know what she's going to say next. I've never had
Speaker 1: a New Zealand, I've never eaten a frog. No, I
Speaker 1: can't never heard this.
Speaker 2: Oh well I'll source it. It's definitely a real thing.
Speaker 2: I mean, nobody's eating frogs.
Speaker 1: Gloria, thank you so much for your time I think
Speaker 1: you've given us. You know, we're all just trying to
Speaker 1: get to the end of the year. You know, the
Speaker 1: everyone gets a bit tired at this point of the
Speaker 1: year and the stress and the burnout is building. So
Speaker 1: it's a really good time just to stop and rethink
Speaker 1: our day a little bit. So really appreciate all your tips.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
Speaker 3: We thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: So let me just explain that the frog thing. I'm
Speaker 2: sure other listeners have heard of this.
Speaker 1: I'm sure they have, along with the Greasy Pancake and
Speaker 1: the men the other wonderful littless you've given us this,
Speaker 1: our lovely producer has found.
Speaker 2: The original credit was Mark Twain. The concept is based
Speaker 2: on eat a live frog first thing in the morning,
Speaker 2: nothing worse will happen for the rest of the day.
Speaker 2: And now that's but antiquated, then it was adapted to
Speaker 2: be a productivity thing if you basically saying, if you
Speaker 2: do your hardest thing first, then rested. So that makes
Speaker 2: aug also like, sure, you could choose to eat the
Speaker 2: frog at the end of the day, franchiesca, but all
Speaker 2: you're going to think about is even the frog, and
Speaker 2: you're not gonna get anything else done.
Speaker 1: Thank you for that explanation, because I was just wondering
Speaker 1: why we were eating frogs in the first place.
Speaker 2: Now one's a eating frogs.
Speaker 3: Look.
Speaker 1: Gloria's book is Attention Span if you would like to
Speaker 1: read more, she also has a sub stack, the Future
Speaker 1: of Attention. She talks a lot about attention in our
Speaker 1: brains and technology and all sorts of things. So there's
Speaker 1: just a few places where you can find out more
Speaker 1: from Gloria, and.
Speaker 2: Then you have it cut. Francisca, we have pretty much
Speaker 2: come to the end of season five Things.
Speaker 1: Crazy Crazy would have been your highlights?
Speaker 2: Well, that was a pretty good one. That could be
Speaker 2: quite life changing. I have enjoyed the season very very much,
Speaker 2: and I think from everything from Michico talking about fashion.
Speaker 1: Oh I know, she wasn't she loving? She was so
Speaker 1: nervous about coming and doing that podcast, and she was fabulous.
Speaker 1: She was gorgeous and so non judgmental, and that's sort
Speaker 1: of I think we do choose good guests. Yeah, I know,
Speaker 1: And didn't you make you just want to put out
Speaker 1: a bit of color and try something different and no,
Speaker 1: really positive loved it.
Speaker 2: So that was a good one. Kylie, A little bit
Speaker 2: like today's one. Gave me a few sort of little
Speaker 2: tricks I can play oh myself if you like, or
Speaker 2: little fat little hacks I can do for myself.
Speaker 1: I love Kylie Wilson just because I will never be
Speaker 1: an elite athlete, but I kind of I'm quite fascinated
Speaker 1: by what makes them take. So I just loved the
Speaker 1: sports chat. I just like hearing, yeah, the conversations out
Speaker 1: sort of the tips and techniques that leaked athletes use.
Speaker 1: I loved doctor Caroline Girvich and that was our episode
Speaker 1: that we did kind of kind of on middle aged
Speaker 1: rage and anger and the impact that our hormones have
Speaker 1: on our brains. And what I loved about it was
Speaker 1: women were saying to us. I got my partner or
Speaker 1: my husband to listen to it, and they just came
Speaker 1: back to me and they went oh, okay, I get it,
Speaker 1: you know, like, and that made me feel like, you know,
Speaker 1: it was worth coming to work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I got that too.
Speaker 1: It was like, I am so pleased it was helpful.
Speaker 1: I'm so pleased, you know, you're not out there on
Speaker 1: your own. And yes, it is very common and normal,
Speaker 1: and I'm glad now that other people around you, who
Speaker 1: are probably wondering who the hell you are, understand why
Speaker 1: it's happening.
Speaker 2: That's right, I mean there is a very validous, evidence
Speaker 2: based reason.
Speaker 1: Yeah, very much. I still have to go back to
Speaker 1: our very first guest this year. If I take a
Speaker 1: look at the whole year, like and if you look
Speaker 1: at the advice we've been given, what you've taken might
Speaker 1: have worked for you, And Lara Bryden is still probably
Speaker 1: a bit of a game changer for me with the
Speaker 1: metabolism reset and just getting my head around and we
Speaker 1: spoke about this throughout the year with different things with
Speaker 1: alcohol and things like that, just getting my head around
Speaker 1: the just cutting back on those ultra processed foods, cutting
Speaker 1: back on the alcohol and the sugar and just eating
Speaker 1: well and the difference it's made. And I'm you know, like,
Speaker 1: I'm probably the slowest weight loser ever. But I have
Speaker 1: not been sick this year. My immune system has been
Speaker 1: so much better. My knees no longer randomly swell, the
Speaker 1: inflammation is down.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: I've seen all these benefits just from you know, sort
Speaker 1: of reducing information in my body and just looking after
Speaker 1: myself a little bit better. And so that's been That
Speaker 1: was excellent advice for me this year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I need to I need to look at that again.
Speaker 2: Obviously it's been a funny year.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I chose that silly word at the beginning of the year,
Speaker 2: and what did you choose? Strong?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 2: Strong, And it's like it's like it's like the universe said, okay, lou,
Speaker 2: let's just check a few things at you. And especially
Speaker 2: in the last few weeks, just been a bit off.
Speaker 2: So I will listen to Lara again. Actually, and I
Speaker 2: did all of the books, so I will start start
Speaker 2: to focus.
Speaker 1: Then. I'd just like to thank all our guests on
Speaker 1: season five this year, in particular that I just like
Speaker 1: to say especial thank you to doctor Lucy Hohne, who
Speaker 1: shared such a personal story with us about dementia, and
Speaker 1: also Lorna Riley, who also shared a really personal story,
Speaker 1: but gave us so much positivity when it comes to
Speaker 1: life after divorce.
Speaker 2: Yep. And I got a lot from talking to Justin
Speaker 2: Colson as well, just to top up on some of
Speaker 2: that parenting stuff and some really fascinating insights that probably
Speaker 2: only a psychologist with a pH d would actually know.
Speaker 1: How's your emergency fund coming along?
Speaker 2: It was coming great. You did tell me not to
Speaker 2: not to jinx it, and you know, tell you that
Speaker 2: I have started an emergency fund and then we had
Speaker 2: an emergency. Yeah, no, it's bloody great.
Speaker 1: Thanks very much, but a really big thank you to
Speaker 1: you too for joining us on this season of the
Speaker 1: Little Things. We hope you share this podcast with the
Speaker 1: women and men in your lifet week and all well
Speaker 1: after today. Regain some focus at some point in our
Speaker 1: day in one of those valleys or peaks.
Speaker 2: Somewhere in there, somewhere in there, and I think we
Speaker 2: are going to be back next year, aren't we. Friendships,
Speaker 2: We sure can look forward to more of us, well,
Speaker 2: not more of us, just the two of us. Still,
Speaker 2: thank you.
Speaker 1: There might be more of me after summer, to be
Speaker 1: honest with you, quite possibly.
Speaker 2: You can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio. Or wherever you
Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and for more episodes from us on
Speaker 2: other topics here to MZ herald dot co dot MZED
Speaker 1: And we will definitely catch you next year on the
Speaker 1: Little Things