Speaker 1: This week on the Business of Tech powered by two
Speaker 1: Degrees Business. Our education tech companies are going gangbusters, but
Speaker 1: as artificial intelligence a massive disrupted coming for them, or
Speaker 1: the technology that will make them even more successful and valuable.
Speaker 2: We talked to CAMI co founder Henji Wang following a
Speaker 2: major new investment in the company that values it at
Speaker 2: three hundred million dollars, flush with cash and already forty
Speaker 2: million students and teachers using its online tools. How will
Speaker 2: AI factor into the future of education and Cami's business.
Speaker 3: We are certainly at the tip of the iceberg, if
Speaker 3: you will around what's possible in this technology. There's a
Speaker 3: lot more that you can do to purposefully take AI,
Speaker 3: take genitor of AI, make curriculum more accommodating to the students' needs.
Speaker 3: I think that's the dream, is to be able to
Speaker 3: personalize it for every single student. But doing our way
Speaker 3: that is purposeful.
Speaker 1: Now. This is the first in a series we are
Speaker 1: doing on how AI is impacting various industries and the
Speaker 1: opportunities for Kiwi businesses and entrepreneurs that AI represents. We'll
Speaker 1: be looking at healthcare and manufacturing in upcoming episodes. But
Speaker 1: given Ben's a former school teacher. We wanted to start
Speaker 1: somewhere close to his heart.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I love education and I really enjoy talking to Henji
Speaker 2: from CAMI about where it's going, and so my interview
Speaker 2: with him will be coming up shortly.
Speaker 1: First, let's take a look at the big dump of
Speaker 1: product related news out of Apple this week, with the
Speaker 1: launch of the iPhone sixteen lineup, a few interesting health
Speaker 1: tech editions, and the debut, of course, of Apple Intelligence.
Speaker 1: What did you make of it, Ben, Tuesday's big announcement.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was the definition of iterative in
Speaker 2: many ways, but I think some of those iterations were
Speaker 2: pretty cool. I know the online reaction that I saw
Speaker 2: was pretty underwhelmed in general, but I thought there was
Speaker 2: some interesting stuff in there. The little camera button that
Speaker 2: turns the phone into a more of a focused camera tool.
Speaker 2: I think like while most people might not find that
Speaker 2: incredibly useful, there's going to be a good chunk of
Speaker 2: people who do. Might open up more of the camera's
Speaker 2: options to more people, And it really is working to
Speaker 2: turn it into an industry tool, which I think is
Speaker 2: super interesting. And if you look back earlier this year,
Speaker 2: I went and jumped off the sky tower because Apple
Speaker 2: had done a deal with aj Hacket Bungee to use
Speaker 2: iPhone fifteen's in all of their replacing their cameras to
Speaker 2: capture customer experiences. So people are starting to see the
Speaker 2: value of using the iPhones in place of some of
Speaker 2: these more expensive camera rigs, which I think is an
Speaker 2: interesting trend that probably shouldn't be overlooked and isn't something
Speaker 2: that I think most of the consumers maybe watching that
Speaker 2: glow Time event would have noticed, but really stuck out me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean people are shooting entire movies on the
Speaker 1: iPhone now, particularly the iPhone Pro and Pro Max or
Speaker 1: whatever it's called, So the quality level is there, so
Speaker 1: to have that tactile to be able to really control
Speaker 1: that is really useful. But the key sort of takeaway
Speaker 1: for me actually is the pricing's actually decreased for the
Speaker 1: New Zealand market, and that's stayed the same in the US.
Speaker 1: So the iPhone sixteen will go on sale here for
Speaker 1: one five hundred and ninety nine dollars, and that is
Speaker 1: down from one thousand, six hundred and forty nine dollars
Speaker 1: for the iPhone fifteen, and that discount or lower price
Speaker 1: is reflected across the range the sixteen pro, for instance,
Speaker 1: is nineteen hundred and ninety nine dollars that used to
Speaker 1: be two thousand and ninety nine. They're looking at the
Speaker 1: New Zealand dollar compared to the US, going how much
Speaker 1: can keiws take really in a recessionary environment. So that
Speaker 1: is good for consumers, But for me, the other big
Speaker 1: thing that caught my attention is really not on the iPhone.
Speaker 1: It's on the Apple Watch and on the AirPod Pro.
Speaker 1: These health features. I mean, it's super exciting turning the
Speaker 1: AirPod pros and I've been talking about this for a
Speaker 1: long time, but they finally nailed it, turning it basically
Speaker 1: into what they're calling a clinical grade hearing aid, so
Speaker 1: not necessarily replacing hearing aids that are usually very expensive
Speaker 1: and finely tuned to the user. But if you have
Speaker 1: sort of low or mid level hearing loss, being able
Speaker 1: to use these to basically boost the volume, the clarity
Speaker 1: and adapted very much to you. You can tune them
Speaker 1: using the app on the iPhone.
Speaker 2: It's pretty incredible, and you can do the hearing test
Speaker 2: and the Apple Health app as well. So it's like
Speaker 2: a beginning to end solution for people with like you say,
Speaker 2: mild to moderate hearing loss like that is probably something
Speaker 2: that I don't think many people would have had on
Speaker 2: their Bengo cards, you know. But it really just goes
Speaker 2: to show the potential for medtech in people's lives.
Speaker 4: The only thing that does give me pause.
Speaker 2: Is that the cost of these devices and the fact
Speaker 2: that they are still very much in the high end premium,
Speaker 2: does start to see a little bit of a diversion
Speaker 2: or further diversion in healthcare for different ends of the
Speaker 2: social spectrum. Absolutely, you know, it's not going to be
Speaker 2: maybe the people that need it most who are getting
Speaker 2: these things strapped to their wrist, perhaps, Yeah.
Speaker 1: And if you need a device set runs iOS eighteen
Speaker 1: for the hearing aids, you need the AirPod Pro two.
Speaker 1: I think it is it's four hundred and seventy nine
Speaker 1: dollars that they're going on, the mircrop in New Zealand,
Speaker 1: a high end Apple Watch I think nine or ten series,
Speaker 1: and the Ultra, so you're looking at five or six
Speaker 1: hundred bucks for one of those. But they are the
Speaker 1: not subscription based, which is good, so credit to them
Speaker 1: for innovating these things. Neither of them have had FDA approval.
Speaker 1: Or the right regulatory sign off. Yet they say that's
Speaker 1: coming soon, so hopefully they get that over the line.
Speaker 1: It's curious that they launched these things before they've actually
Speaker 1: got it all signed and sealed, but.
Speaker 4: Pretty confident about it. Yeah, exactly that they will.
Speaker 1: I can't see it being too controversial. But I guess
Speaker 1: the other thing, which is also not here yet the
Speaker 1: phones have debuted, but Apple Intelligence.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that was my next point as well.
Speaker 1: It's just like, why would you why would you do that?
Speaker 1: You've got this big flagship event and it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: that will be later this month. These features, these Apple
Speaker 1: Intelligence AI driven text editing and in box summaries all
Speaker 1: sounds great and we've been hearing about it for months.
Speaker 1: Do it in a big bang when the actual phones
Speaker 1: are unveiled at your biggest of end of the year.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it just I have to.
Speaker 2: Like, it does get me really excited, the contextual personal
Speaker 2: context stuff, being able to go through and have that
Speaker 2: really smart assistant and all the upgrades to Siri. It
Speaker 2: gets me really excited for that. But at the same time,
Speaker 2: it's it's kind of like how many times can.
Speaker 4: You can you get away with that?
Speaker 2: Like I feel like I'm being I've been burned with
Speaker 2: the Surface laptop and this like burned a little bit
Speaker 2: with the originally with Samsung when they came out saying
Speaker 2: they were going to have all these great AI features
Speaker 2: and they were a bit milk toast and and so
Speaker 2: come on, Apple, like, my hopes are up, so really
Speaker 2: need you to deliver on this one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're a business desk. A review of the
Speaker 1: Microsoft Surface Laptop was was pretty pretty scathing, and really
Speaker 1: that was down to the over promising on the AI function.
Speaker 1: I was the same I reviewed it, and you know,
Speaker 1: there's that button on keyboard which is your launch pad
Speaker 1: into co pilot, and co Pilot's a good a good service,
Speaker 1: but really that is it. All the other functions that
Speaker 1: they were really touting, like the recall function wasn't available.
Speaker 1: So I think Apple is in real danger of doing
Speaker 1: the same thing. They obviously are making last minute tweaks.
Speaker 1: It's very complicated to get these things working properly. But
Speaker 1: if we don't see them having a really good impact
Speaker 1: by the end of this month, I think they're going
Speaker 1: to be in trouble and that may impact iPhone sixteen
Speaker 1: sales ultimately.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, unless the people, the early adopters get these
Speaker 2: in their hands, and even the iPhone fifteen Pro people
Speaker 2: get the Apple Intelligence in their hands and go this
Speaker 2: is awesome and really generate that buzz online, it is
Speaker 2: not going to have that pick up impact that they're
Speaker 2: really hoping for for the iPhone sixteen because they're putting
Speaker 2: a lot of eggs in this iPhone sixteen basket in
Speaker 2: terms of their you know, dropping sales over recent years.
Speaker 1: So yeah, and look, they're not really promising that much.
Speaker 1: It's pretty basic, you know what you'll be able to
Speaker 1: do in the initial run anyway. But what will be
Speaker 1: interesting is all the developers who got access to Apple
Speaker 1: Intelligence six months ago, what they will be coming up
Speaker 1: with and what will appear on the App Store or
Speaker 1: in their existing apps that draw on that neural processor
Speaker 1: in the iPhone sixteen and which you can use on
Speaker 1: the iPhone fifteen Pro as well. That is going to
Speaker 1: supercharge the apps that we use every day. So that's
Speaker 1: when the real value I think will come, both for
Speaker 1: the surface and these co pilot PCs as well as
Speaker 1: phones that have AI on them, when all the third
Speaker 1: party app developers jump on board and make use of them.
Speaker 1: Interesting that Apple had its big splash and literally the
Speaker 1: next day on Wednesday, news from Europe that they've been
Speaker 1: slapped with a twenty three billion dollar fee for back
Speaker 1: taxes because of their arrangement with Ireland where they were
Speaker 1: paying for a long time a very low effective tax rate.
Speaker 1: And you have this weird situation where islands have got
Speaker 1: rich off companies like Apple. We had a guest on
Speaker 1: a few months back who was talking about the Celtic
Speaker 1: Tiger and how rich Dublin is because of the tech sector,
Speaker 1: and you had Ireland basically saying to the EU, leave
Speaker 1: us alone. We've got this great deal going with Apple,
Speaker 1: and the EU said, no, Ireland, you were part of
Speaker 1: the EU. We will all have uniform tax policies. Apple's
Speaker 1: going to have to pay. So they will have to pay.
Speaker 1: They've said, I think in the fourth quarter they will
Speaker 1: have a ten billion dollar US impact on their books
Speaker 1: to settle that. So they'll have to sell a lot
Speaker 1: more iPhone sixteen's to make up for it.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, yeah, and I mean it goes. It does
Speaker 2: speak volumes of the fact that they have capitulated to
Speaker 2: a lot of the EU's demands in terms of USBC
Speaker 2: in terms of opening the NMC chip and all these
Speaker 2: other things. The Europe is clearly a very important market
Speaker 2: to them. So yeah, I can't see them. Well, there's
Speaker 2: probably a little bit of grumbling in the background. I
Speaker 2: can't see them, you know, resisting too hard at paying
Speaker 2: their their fair share over in the EU.
Speaker 1: No, and very you know, suddenly the Irish government has
Speaker 1: a twenty three billion dollar that's New Zealand dollar, sort
Speaker 1: of thirteen billion euro windfall.
Speaker 4: Imagine that.
Speaker 1: Imagine what that would mean for the New Zealand government
Speaker 1: to have that sort of money to put into infrastructure
Speaker 1: or something. So you're trying to figure out what to
Speaker 1: do with it. They want to set up a sovereign
Speaker 1: fun there, one hundred billion dollars sovereign fun And that's
Speaker 1: really because they're taking in so much corporate tax. Now,
Speaker 1: they got all of those companies there at paying low tax,
Speaker 1: and then the EU said no, they have to pay
Speaker 1: a fair amount of tax. And the companies have invested
Speaker 1: so much in Ireland are staying there.
Speaker 4: So it's just worked.
Speaker 1: It's just a masterful plan really.
Speaker 4: By the I fantastic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a pity we's so far away that it
Speaker 2: wouldn't quite work for us.
Speaker 1: But no, right now, onto our featured interview with Henji Wang,
Speaker 1: co founder of CAMI. Last month, The Herald reported that
Speaker 1: BV Investment Partners had taken a controlling stake in CAMI.
Speaker 1: This is a Boston based private equity company that's been
Speaker 1: around for decades and invested in a lot of ed
Speaker 1: tech companies. That deal valued the company at three hundred
Speaker 1: million dollars.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 1: It follows another US private equity company taking a big
Speaker 1: stake in Dunedin's Education Perfect back in twenty twenty one
Speaker 1: that valued the company at four hundred and fifty five
Speaker 1: million dollars. We've also got Crimson Education, which raised ten
Speaker 1: million US last year and a funding round that valued
Speaker 1: it it supposedly US four hundred and sixty million dollars.
Speaker 2: Those are incredible valuations for education related startups and they're
Speaker 2: doing very well overseas.
Speaker 4: That's just three of them.
Speaker 2: There are several other fast growing ones, and it's that
Speaker 2: that that doesn't really get the same level of bars
Speaker 2: as like fintech or agritech, but which New Zealand seems
Speaker 2: to do very well in.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you who has done very well from Boston
Speaker 1: Ventures buying CAMI. The New Zealand Growth Capital Partners, the
Speaker 1: government's venture investment vehicle. It's a spire fund will get
Speaker 1: thirty seven million dollars back from the sale of CAMI.
Speaker 1: That represents a seventyfold increase on its investment. But Ben
Speaker 1: tell us a bit more about exactly what CAMI does
Speaker 1: in the education tech space.
Speaker 2: Basically, at its core, CAMI is a document sharing platform,
Speaker 2: so teachers can easily share PDFs with students and they
Speaker 2: can be annotated and they can be easily marked if
Speaker 2: they know the kids write their answers on the sheets
Speaker 2: and things like that.
Speaker 4: I mean, that's that Its very core.
Speaker 2: But it has evolved now into this really comprehensive assessment
Speaker 2: and learning product. So you can take a pack of
Speaker 2: resources and you can give them to students and you
Speaker 2: can create assessment it's based on them, and you know,
Speaker 2: it's got remote learning aspects to it. And it's basically
Speaker 2: like a document management tool on steroids specifically for education
Speaker 2: for teachers and students. And obviously in the digital age,
Speaker 2: when all of your resources are online on your computer
Speaker 2: and they're going to different types of computers to chromebooks,
Speaker 2: to PCs, iPads. Being able to have something that can
Speaker 2: work across all of those platforms is really useful for
Speaker 2: education worldwide.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I've had a huge cut through in one
Speaker 1: hundred and eighty countries, big in the US. It's been
Speaker 1: the focus of them. Founded by students so very much,
Speaker 1: people who are feeling the pain points of learning in
Speaker 1: the digital age and decided to go about and fix that.
Speaker 1: So here's been talking to CAMI co Founderhnji Wang about
Speaker 1: a startup journey and the role AI is likely to
Speaker 1: play and the type of educational platforms Cammi is developing.
Speaker 2: Hi, Henji, Welcome to the Business of Tech podcast. Thanks
Speaker 2: so much for joining us. Thanks for having me, Ben So,
Speaker 2: you are one of the co founders of a New
Speaker 2: Zealand's success story in the tech scene and especially the
Speaker 2: ed tech scene known as Cammi, and Cammy's been around
Speaker 2: for just over a decade now. I think you just
Speaker 2: said to me basically selling a really powerful and useful
Speaker 2: piece of software into schools. Do you want to give
Speaker 2: us just a very brief background about how Cami came
Speaker 2: to be.
Speaker 3: Absolutely so. Cammy is this wonderful platform app that's used
Speaker 3: by over forty million teachers and students around the world.
Speaker 3: But before we got there, we started this business as
Speaker 3: just an app that we were as best friends at university.
Speaker 3: We wanted to solve a problem that we had ourselves,
Speaker 3: which was how do you effectively take study notes in class?
Speaker 3: And this is over decadedgos So when devices were just
Speaker 3: starting to show up in every classroom, when technologists just
Speaker 3: started to show up more privalently in the class, prominently
Speaker 3: in the class brother and we knew that we had
Speaker 3: a look and there wasn't great software and we needed
Speaker 3: to do something about it. So that's the solution that
Speaker 3: we came up with. And then of course this trend
Speaker 3: around teacher time and resource availability. Teachers are increasingly cling
Speaker 3: more and how do you have a way to still
Speaker 3: be able to personalize and make learning accessible and make
Speaker 3: it exciting, but do it in a way that uses
Speaker 3: technology in the most purposeful way possible and embracing that
Speaker 3: I think has always been the biggest challenge in education.
Speaker 2: I think that kind of leads us quite naturally to
Speaker 2: the main topic of the conversation that we are here
Speaker 2: to have, which is, of course artificial intelligence and how
Speaker 2: AI is increasingly playing a role in the classroom, and
Speaker 2: I think probably the first thing we should do is
Speaker 2: split out AI as we're thinking about it, into what
Speaker 2: we might call now classic AI. And then we've got
Speaker 2: this other public facing side of AI, the new wave
Speaker 2: generative AI, LM based AI, whatever you'd like to call it,
Speaker 2: that involves interactivity between dynamic language based interactivity between kind
Speaker 2: of the user and the software. So, yeah, let's go
Speaker 2: back to the early days of how Chemi was using AI.
Speaker 2: I'm assuming you've had some kind of algorithmic presence in
Speaker 2: your product for several years.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So if we were to zoom back a little
Speaker 3: bit and just think about that implementation of technology in
Speaker 3: the classroom, Cammy, one of our proof points is we
Speaker 3: save teachers. This is teachers telling us we save teachers
Speaker 3: in the average of eight hours a week. Wow, So
Speaker 3: that is huge. That's over an hour each day that
Speaker 3: we're giving back to the teacher to enable them to
Speaker 3: focus back on their students, their learning outcomes, making things
Speaker 3: more accessible. And if you look at how we arrived
Speaker 3: at that point, we did it in a way that
Speaker 3: takes technology that already exists today and put it together
Speaker 3: in a way that really drives activity in the classroom.
Speaker 3: We do it by, for instance, saving a clique for
Speaker 3: the teacher or saving a clique for the students so
Speaker 3: that they don't have to think about it and worry
Speaker 3: about it. So anything that we can do to simplify
Speaker 3: technology in the classroom is actually a huge gain for
Speaker 3: the teacher. Just as an example, when we did all
Speaker 3: of this, we achieved this eight hour a week on
Speaker 3: average saving for the teacher outcome before we had any
Speaker 3: of the new generation of LAMAI implemented an product. So
Speaker 3: that tells you something about how we as a company
Speaker 3: know how to implement technology in the classroom, and we've
Speaker 3: done it using your traditional AI. There is a lot
Speaker 3: of One example would be how we take an image
Speaker 3: that teachers have and digitizing that image. So take a
Speaker 3: scan of a document and we make it as seamless
Speaker 3: as possible to digitize it into a format that you
Speaker 3: can start using. You can start interacting as a student.
Speaker 3: So I, as a teacher, take a scan of a
Speaker 3: piece of curriculum, I send it off to a student
Speaker 3: that might have special accommodations or special needs, and they
Speaker 3: can start immediately using it with their speech to text.
Speaker 3: So it allows it to read out loud the text
Speaker 3: or sorry rather text a speech not speech to text.
Speaker 3: On the opposite end, Cammie also has tools that allow
Speaker 3: the student to speak their answer back to the to
Speaker 3: their curriculum and record all whether that's a video, whether
Speaker 3: that's sort of a text written dictated down. And that's
Speaker 3: perhaps what you would consider your more traditional AI implementation
Speaker 3: of CAME, but we do in a way that is
Speaker 3: as little friction as possible. And so yeah, that would
Speaker 3: probably be a few examples of how we've gone on
Speaker 3: to purposely implement this in a way. And for the
Speaker 3: more tech savvy readers out there, it's just a very
Speaker 3: seamless integration of what is known as the OCI technology solution.
Speaker 2: Right, So it's just kind of any time that you
Speaker 2: see that there's a way to improve a process basically
Speaker 2: to make it less manual using these the implementation of
Speaker 2: these algorithms, you can kind of do that because you
Speaker 2: are a software product, and speech to text must have
Speaker 2: been kind of revolutionary for a lot of people when
Speaker 2: that was first able to be rolled out on mass
Speaker 2: Having that same kind of experience with the new generation
Speaker 2: the LM based AI.
Speaker 3: In short, yes, I think one important thing I should
Speaker 3: note before we get into that is whenever we develop product,
Speaker 3: our philosophy is to speak to the customer directly. And
Speaker 3: if you look at every single feature, every single change
Speaker 3: that we've rolled out in our product, we can tie
Speaker 3: that to a conversation we've had with a feature with
Speaker 3: a parent, with an administrator, perhaps sometimes with a student,
Speaker 3: and so that is extremely important to us being able
Speaker 3: to link it back to this will help this person
Speaker 3: and why. And when you look at how we've started
Speaker 3: to implement LLMS, we've done it in a way that
Speaker 3: is extremely purposeful. So our first enhancement using LLMS and
Speaker 3: Generator of AI is to take an existing piece of
Speaker 3: curriculum and you enhance it by bringing out or teasing
Speaker 3: out all the sort of quizzes and questions that typically
Speaker 3: a teacher would spend time typing manually out for the
Speaker 3: students to answer. We now pull that out. If there's
Speaker 3: an answer key, we'll use take advantage of that answer key,
Speaker 3: and it pulls it all out so that the teacher
Speaker 3: can then organize it on their document, on their template,
Speaker 3: rather before they send it out to the students to answer.
Speaker 3: And one of the things that we've done is we
Speaker 3: can also select using l and MS the right answer,
Speaker 3: so it saves teachers time. They don't have to say
Speaker 3: they don't have to grade it manually anymore. They can
Speaker 3: simply let it auto grade because at the time that
Speaker 3: we generate these quizzes or these questions, we've already got
Speaker 3: an idea of what the answer will be, and we
Speaker 3: have the teacher check all of this before they send
Speaker 3: it off to the students, which is an important bit
Speaker 3: around the limitations of these LMS.
Speaker 2: So you're automating. So when you say a curriculum, that's
Speaker 2: what talking about is like a stack of resources, right,
Speaker 2: So a bunch of PDFs or word documents or that
Speaker 2: teachers gather over years to create essentially a pack of
Speaker 2: resources that they use to teach a particular unit. So
Speaker 2: for example, if it's a history class, there might be
Speaker 2: a French Revolution unit, and so they'll have a whole
Speaker 2: bunch of documents, scanned pages from books, website resources they
Speaker 2: printed out, and then stuff they've made themselves, quizzes, like
Speaker 2: you said, all these kinds of things, and with the
Speaker 2: LLM tools, because of that contextual understanding, you're able to
Speaker 2: go in and take out just the quizzes and say, okay,
Speaker 2: here you go. Here's the ten different quizzes that you've
Speaker 2: got in this curriculum. You can kind of use them
Speaker 2: how you want to now, and here's the answer key.
Speaker 2: And then on top of that, you said there was
Speaker 2: a kind of automatic marking aspect to it as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so as it calls out these questions from the resource,
Speaker 3: it can also use its knowledge base in the LLM
Speaker 3: to select what is the right answer for you. But
Speaker 3: nine times out of ten that resource already has an
Speaker 3: answer key be able to leverage that or the answer
Speaker 3: to that is already from the curriculum that you're teaching.
Speaker 3: So you can simply go and we'll tease that out
Speaker 3: and auto allow you as a teacher to auto grape,
Speaker 3: so that when you send it off to the students,
Speaker 3: you have the option to say, great, it automatically for me,
Speaker 3: But don't show the student the answer or show the
Speaker 3: student the answer so that they can learn from that
Speaker 3: and perhaps learn from why they got the answer wrong,
Speaker 3: because there will be a hint field inside a camy
Speaker 3: that allows the student to be able to see that
Speaker 3: hint and understand, oh, I got it wrong because of
Speaker 3: this or this is the hint towards the right answer
Speaker 3: that I can try and reread my resource. So it's
Speaker 3: very flexible, and it's designed specifically because checking for understanding
Speaker 3: as a teacher is so important that we want to
Speaker 3: be able to provide the teacher with all the tools
Speaker 3: that need to check that sort of that what they're
Speaker 3: trying to teach is actually being comprehended by the student.
Speaker 2: That's that's really interesting. I guess that's the one of
Speaker 2: the strengths of these generative AI models is that they
Speaker 2: are really good at taking unstructured data and unearthing specific
Speaker 2: things that you want from it, and you know you
Speaker 2: can make these requests. So what is what are the
Speaker 2: what are the possibilities you mentioned character based AI? So
Speaker 2: like a Marie Antoinette comes on and as a as
Speaker 2: an AI and perhaps the students can talk to her.
Speaker 2: That seems like an interesting use case.
Speaker 4: Is that is that.
Speaker 2: Something that you've had chats with about your with your
Speaker 2: customers about.
Speaker 3: Out there in the wild. We have seen a lot
Speaker 3: a lot of different platforms that do that. We have
Speaker 3: seen some success in the classroom where a teacher might
Speaker 3: take a particular resource and essentially generate artifacts of different
Speaker 3: reason side resources supplemental resources from that core curriculum resource.
Speaker 3: These generated resources are done in a way that is
Speaker 3: more exciting and engaging for the students. So an example
Speaker 3: would be hate this particular piece of core curriculum and
Speaker 3: generator in the voice of Lightning the Queen the movie
Speaker 3: Cars and catch out exactly, and you can have that
Speaker 3: sort of personality sort of explain the content back to you.
Speaker 2: It reminds me of that meme of a parent who
Speaker 2: said that the kids wouldn't eat frozen vegetables, so they
Speaker 2: stuck some poor patrol stickers on and said they were
Speaker 2: poor patrol frozen vegetables. Like, is that, you know, figuring
Speaker 2: out a way to meet kids where they where.
Speaker 3: They are, where they're interested exactly. And I think if
Speaker 3: you can do that, you can you've If you can
Speaker 3: get them interested in the curriculum and the content and
Speaker 3: the way that you know you're able to meet them
Speaker 3: in the middle, that's transformative. And I think ultimately those
Speaker 3: are some of the great successes that we don't often
Speaker 3: hear about in the class out of the classroom rather,
Speaker 3: but that's something that is you know, really helping the
Speaker 3: sort of engagement and interactivity of that material in the classroom. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it is.
Speaker 2: It is interesting, like we have this sense that for
Speaker 2: education to be valuable, it has to be kind of
Speaker 2: formal or it has to be dry, right, But you know,
Speaker 2: the reality is if you go to the best teachers classrooms,
Speaker 2: they're always covered in colors and posters on the wall,
Speaker 2: and you know, trying to try to walk that line
Speaker 2: between meeting kids where they are with interest and not
Speaker 2: being cringed, which is always a tough one to walk.
Speaker 2: But the idea that you can use these kind of
Speaker 2: artificial intelligence tools to enhance that because not every teacher
Speaker 2: is going to be hit with the kids. So if
Speaker 2: you can kind of say, like, I want to take
Speaker 2: this resource and what are some ways that I could
Speaker 2: make it relevant for an audience of eight to nine
Speaker 2: year olds, what are some of the things they're interested in,
Speaker 2: and how can I bring these together?
Speaker 4: That seems like a really powerful use case.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I think this is why long term, the
Speaker 3: teacher's role in the classroom remains the same, which is
Speaker 3: to guide the students and help them along the learning journey.
Speaker 3: Learning journey, and AI is simply here to facilitate, to support,
Speaker 3: but never to replace. You always need a teacher to
Speaker 3: be that initial seed of I think creativity in the
Speaker 3: classroom of how do you do this but in a
Speaker 3: way that is intentional and purposeful around all the learning
Speaker 3: theory that is out there, all the scientific evidence that
Speaker 3: is out there, around how do you best have good
Speaker 3: useful curriculum and the implementation of that curriculum. So I
Speaker 3: don't think the role of the teacher is going in
Speaker 3: a way in times certain AI is simply there to
Speaker 3: help facilitate and really give drive meaningful productivity gains in
Speaker 3: the teacher workflow.
Speaker 2: Are you sure that we will not have robot teachers
Speaker 2: coming in the future where kids all put on their
Speaker 2: VR headsets and they go to the virtual classroom. I mean,
Speaker 2: that's obviously an exaggeration, But what about the possibility of
Speaker 2: virtual tas right teachers assistants who can provide that kind
Speaker 2: of tier one support for kids where the teacher. Like
Speaker 2: you said, class numbers are growing, Teacher time is really hard.
Speaker 2: Quite often a teacher in a classroom of thirty maybe
Speaker 2: five students will take up the majority of their time.
Speaker 2: So is there a way of providing an AI support
Speaker 2: for teachers to be able to actually help students with
Speaker 2: those first level questions before they go to the teacher.
Speaker 2: Is that desirable or is that kind of using technology
Speaker 2: to justify having worse teacher to student ratios? You know,
Speaker 2: that's a big question to ask, But I'm just thinking about, like,
Speaker 2: as we move into the future of education where it
Speaker 2: doesn't look like we're going to be exploding numbers of
Speaker 2: teachers while kid numbers are going to go up, like,
Speaker 2: how do we is there a way that we can
Speaker 2: help to mitigate that?
Speaker 3: That's an interesting idea. I haven't given it too much thought,
Speaker 3: but I think as a general thumb, if we're able
Speaker 3: to help the teacher, you know, do their job job
Speaker 3: more effectively, AKAA have a tutor that is able to
Speaker 3: advide let's say, first line support to any sort of
Speaker 3: questions about the correculum, then yeah, that could be a
Speaker 3: useful feature of a platform, Like do you do.
Speaker 2: You see there being a space for And I'm not
Speaker 2: saying that Cammie's going to do it right now, but
Speaker 2: I'm just kind of curious whether you think that that
Speaker 2: is a future that we're headed towards, or is that
Speaker 2: that's just so far in the future it's not even
Speaker 2: worth thinking about having actual chatbots that can help students
Speaker 2: in the classroom.
Speaker 3: I think there are already companies that are trying to
Speaker 3: do that today. I think there haven't hit mainstream yet.
Speaker 3: You know, I've cluely seen quite a few of them.
Speaker 3: It doesn't take a lot to implement something like this,
Speaker 3: But the real question is like, how do you do
Speaker 3: this with the right amount of controls and visibility and
Speaker 3: transparency and safety so that it's actually easy for your
Speaker 3: non icky teacher that doesn't have a lot of time
Speaker 3: to go out and train about you know, all the
Speaker 3: biases and limitations of any I and understand that fully
Speaker 3: before they roll it out in the classroom. How do
Speaker 3: you do how do you do that well? I haven't
Speaker 3: seen that done yet, but I can see a future
Speaker 3: of five teen years from now where that's a possibility,
Speaker 3: and I can see how that's going to be super beneficial,
Speaker 3: I think for the classroom. But you've got to do
Speaker 3: it right, and I think that's the bet that I
Speaker 3: haven't seen done well yet.
Speaker 2: You mentioned personalization as well, using artificial intelligence to be
Speaker 2: able to contextually understand the way that a student answer
Speaker 2: different prompts, you know, using prompt might be the wrong word,
Speaker 2: but be able to answer different questions in class like
Speaker 2: can look at their writing, how they answer exam questions,
Speaker 2: how they answer short answer, how they approach solving math questions,
Speaker 2: and learn about the best way to help to guide them.
Speaker 2: Can be fed information about their learning style, about their
Speaker 2: you know, any learning support they might need, and can
Speaker 2: help to amend curricula in a way that will be
Speaker 2: supportive of students. We talked about it in terms of
Speaker 2: you know, lightning McQueen voices and things like that, but
Speaker 2: is there is there potential for it to actually more
Speaker 2: specifically be able to address personal needs or help teachers
Speaker 2: to address students' personal learning needs throughout the development of
Speaker 2: a curriculum plan for a classroom.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot there. I think there is a
Speaker 3: lot of opportunity to realize with AI that we haven't
Speaker 3: realized yet. And a lot of it comes down to
Speaker 3: how do you personalize this curriculum to the interests of
Speaker 3: the child, to what they've mentioned or said in the
Speaker 3: past that might be of interest to them, and then
Speaker 3: how do you do it in a way that still
Speaker 3: provides an instructural value based on all the learning sciences.
Speaker 3: So you know, we are certainly at this sort of
Speaker 3: tip of the iceberg, if you will, around just scratching
Speaker 3: the surface of what's possible in this technology. There's a
Speaker 3: lot more that you can do to you know, purposefully,
Speaker 3: take AI, take genet of AI, do it in a
Speaker 3: way that can make curriculum more interacting, interact of engaging, accessible,
Speaker 3: more accommodating to the students' needs, and do it in
Speaker 3: a way that means that you don't necessarily need a
Speaker 3: special needs accommodation or special needs sort of special needs
Speaker 3: flag in this student system. To be able to have
Speaker 3: that support offered to you, I think that's a dream,
Speaker 3: is to be able to personalize it for every single student.
Speaker 3: But doing in a way that is purposeful. I you know,
Speaker 3: I con certain I see all those sort of opportunities
Speaker 3: out there, and I think that's what's really exciting. Over
Speaker 3: the next five ten years of just working in this space,
Speaker 3: you know, we're able to realize a lot of things
Speaker 3: that we've been thinking about and dreaming about for such
Speaker 3: a long time.
Speaker 2: What is the things that you're hearing most concern I
Speaker 2: mean when chat GPT first came out, you know, it
Speaker 2: was all about plagiarism, kids just asking chat GPT to
Speaker 2: write essays for them, and then there's the battle of
Speaker 2: the AI detectors and is it written by AI.
Speaker 4: Or YadA YadA.
Speaker 2: Is that still the biggest concern that teachers are having
Speaker 2: or is there something else that's coming along in the
Speaker 2: in the realm of AI and education that's starting to
Speaker 2: displace that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question. I think there are certainly
Speaker 3: there's certainly a huge market of AI detectors, but if
Speaker 3: you actually if you look at the efficacy of those detectors,
Speaker 3: it's actually very low. I think one of the dangerous
Speaker 3: things to do in education is to say to a child,
Speaker 3: we're forty three percent sure that you've laid rised as text,
Speaker 3: and even if it gets to eighty or ninety percent,
Speaker 3: you never want to have ten percent of doubt in
Speaker 3: there to then go on to you know, go through
Speaker 3: a disimilary process for the student. So unless you're one
Speaker 3: hundred percent certain you I don't think I personally don't
Speaker 3: think you should go through a process like that. So
Speaker 3: what's important to educate as in my opinion is and
Speaker 3: we've implemented this throughout throughout CAEMI, is giving the teacher
Speaker 3: of visibility of how this work was evolved to where
Speaker 3: it is today. And if we can show the teacher, hey,
Speaker 3: the student spent this amount of time on CAMI, and
Speaker 3: they edited this piece of work a few different times
Speaker 3: and we went through a few different iterations of answering this,
Speaker 3: then you can see that the proof of work is there.
Speaker 3: And I think that's the bit that's important, that visibility
Speaker 3: of how the student came about to this answer, And
Speaker 3: ultimately my hope is that everyone's able to get to
Speaker 3: that point throughout every single product. But yeah, this is
Speaker 3: why I think it's so important to you know, when
Speaker 3: you're implementing technology, you're not just jumping at the next
Speaker 3: API that's available by chat reput but actually do it
Speaker 3: in a way where you're thinking about how does what
Speaker 3: is the impact of this in the classroom, and how
Speaker 3: do I actually help the teacher. You know that famous
Speaker 3: quote people don't know what they want until you show
Speaker 3: it to them, right by Steve Jobs. And I think
Speaker 3: that's the thesis that we've always come tried to try
Speaker 3: to have at the core of CAMI.
Speaker 2: You can see that working really well. You know in primary,
Speaker 2: intermediate high school where you can get kids to use
Speaker 2: a specific software where you can kind of hover over
Speaker 2: them as they do it by pen and paper if.
Speaker 4: You really need to.
Speaker 2: When you get to university, the conversation changes though, because
Speaker 2: you're sending kids away to go and do work. And
Speaker 2: then back in my day you're printed it out and
Speaker 2: you're stuck a cover paper and put it in a slot.
Speaker 2: But these days it's a bit more advanced. You hand
Speaker 2: in a word document. Are you expecting that we'll in
Speaker 2: that realm start to see that you might need to
Speaker 2: submit something that will give you a record of changes
Speaker 2: throughout and then can you use like a souped up
Speaker 2: air detection to look back at those changes and say, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: actually we can recognize that this work has been done
Speaker 2: legitimately and give it a green TECH or a red
Speaker 2: cross saying it was just copy and pasted from Wikipedia
Speaker 2: or a chat GPT.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're onto something. I think it's important
Speaker 3: to have some sort of way to have the teacher
Speaker 3: review how you came about, you know, arriving at this answer,
Speaker 3: and if it means you know, being able to have
Speaker 3: some sort of supplementary material that comes along it alongside
Speaker 3: it to say Hey, I visited these ten websites and
Speaker 3: this is how I arrived at this answer, And those
Speaker 3: are my references, digital fingerprints, if you will, that's attached
Speaker 3: to my work. I think that's the sort of thing
Speaker 3: that ultimately, I think everyone should go towards, you know,
Speaker 3: and if you take a step back and think about, well,
Speaker 3: what is that in twenty years ago? Yeah, it was
Speaker 3: a videography, was us putting references next to our to
Speaker 3: support our answers. That was showing that you've done that research.
Speaker 3: And ultimately, fundamentally that hasn't changed. And today's world, Yeah.
Speaker 4: It's very interesting, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Because you can also go to a product like Perplexity
Speaker 2: and you can say, give me a quote about the
Speaker 2: French revolutions or you know, the impact of the French
Speaker 2: Revolution on the European economy and attribute, you know, find
Speaker 2: a good source for it. And yeah, I mean it's
Speaker 2: still a bit of a way away from just being
Speaker 2: able to then say and make a whole.
Speaker 4: Essay out of it.
Speaker 2: So that augmentative side of AI seems to becoming more
Speaker 2: prevalent in all all areas rather than the replacement side
Speaker 2: of AI. Everyone was so concerned about is that a
Speaker 2: trend that you're seeing as well, that you kind of
Speaker 2: talked about it a little bit, but that teachers are
Speaker 2: starting to say, oh, I see how AI can augment
Speaker 2: students to do research, How AI can augment students to
Speaker 2: give them a base line of writing that they can
Speaker 2: then you know, edit and evolve into something that is
Speaker 2: that is their own work, rather than the fear of well,
Speaker 2: it's just gonna kids are going to lose all their
Speaker 2: skills of being able to do anything.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I certainly empathize with that point of view. I think,
Speaker 3: you know, some people might disagree with this statement, but
Speaker 3: AI is sort of having its calculator calculator moment inside
Speaker 3: of education where once upon a time, and I think
Speaker 3: we were all required to know how to do basic arithmetic.
Speaker 3: And you can sider of see in some education systems
Speaker 3: that requirements go on simply because everyone can pull out
Speaker 3: their phones or a calculator and do that arithmetic. So
Speaker 3: they've moved on their curriculum to perhaps things that are
Speaker 3: more creative or interesting about math and stats, where it
Speaker 3: frees you from having to learn arithmetic to you know,
Speaker 3: you still have to have an understanding of math, right
Speaker 3: and numbers and have a sick feel of how these
Speaker 3: numbers play together. But to actually get the right precise
Speaker 3: measurement or calculation, you don't necessarily need to know that
Speaker 3: you can punch it into a calculator. And I suspect,
Speaker 3: you know, if you think for five ten years, if
Speaker 3: we can give everyone that calculator but for writing, and
Speaker 3: everyone can write great. But it's then moved on to
Speaker 3: how do you formulate ideas and integrate it into an
Speaker 3: argument about something about your thoughts or perhaps a point
Speaker 3: that you're trying to make. Then that could be really interesting,
Speaker 3: right because it frees you up again from writer's block,
Speaker 3: from all those things that you know are spelling and
Speaker 3: perhaps you can I'm just sort of spitballing here, but
Speaker 3: then you can really focus on the things that the
Speaker 3: crux of you know, what it makes writing great, and
Speaker 3: perhaps we can generate a whole generation of great writers.
Speaker 3: And you know, I don't know. I think there is
Speaker 3: the world's are oyster here and we can do a
Speaker 3: lot with this. But I think to take that baby step,
Speaker 3: you have to really think about how do you bear
Speaker 3: some poment ai in the classroom and do it in
Speaker 3: a way that's purposeful and try not to experiment with
Speaker 3: these ideas because you ultimately it's these kids future at risk, right,
Speaker 3: It's that's what's at stake here. So you can't just
Speaker 3: play fast sinelos like what we've done with AI and
Speaker 3: the corporate world. I think you have to be really
Speaker 3: careful about you know, what are the safety guard rails,
Speaker 3: back to my original points and doing them the right way.
Speaker 3: So I think there's a lot of opportunity in front
Speaker 3: of us. We just have to spend the time to
Speaker 3: do it right and realize all the all the sort
Speaker 3: of possibilities.
Speaker 2: What do you think, Peter, do you think we're going
Speaker 2: to be revolutionizing education with AI in the coming years.
Speaker 1: Well, Henji's very cautious there, and we've seen this a lot.
Speaker 1: You know, education when Generative AI really came out of
Speaker 1: the starting gate, that was the one industry where everyone
Speaker 1: had a lot of angst about and it was all
Speaker 1: about plagiarism. And it's interesting his comments there around you know,
Speaker 1: to what extent do you sort of start persecuting students
Speaker 1: around plagiarism? Are they forty percent plagiaristic or one hundred percent?
Speaker 1: You know, there's consequences for starting to make those claims
Speaker 1: against the students, and these are not perfect, these plagiarism checkers.
Speaker 1: So that's where it started, and that seems to have
Speaker 1: died a death really over the last six months. I
Speaker 1: think there are genuine concerns about plagiarism, but it's sort
Speaker 1: of flipped around now where I think a lot of
Speaker 1: administrators in tertiary and secondary education in particular are looking
Speaker 1: at it and going, actually, we're stretched for resources. Teachers
Speaker 1: have high teacher to student ratios when it comes to
Speaker 1: the amount of time they can give a student. If
Speaker 1: these tools can actually help us and shave time off,
Speaker 1: like he was saying, even the traditional AI stuff was
Speaker 1: saving in some cases up to eight hours a week
Speaker 1: of admin for teachers. So if the next step of
Speaker 1: that is reducing that admin burden and improving the experience
Speaker 1: for teachers, fantastic. It is about augmentation of the teacher's
Speaker 1: role rather than replacing aspects of what they do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's amazing, like as a former teacher to think that,
Speaker 2: you know, having eight hours a week back would have
Speaker 2: been just incredible. And I think there is still a
Speaker 2: huge amount of potential for AI in other areas as well,
Speaker 2: like for example, report writing, Like I'm sure parents all
Speaker 2: love to think of their teachers sitting down and spending
Speaker 2: twenty minutes contemplating every student in their class and crafting
Speaker 2: the perfect report, but realistically, we just didn't have time
Speaker 2: for that kind of stuff. It was very much a
Speaker 2: cut and based exercise where you consider based on results,
Speaker 2: based on strengths, based on weaknesses, and then you just
Speaker 2: kind of put together as fast as you can, but
Speaker 2: in a way that and then you add like a
Speaker 2: personal comment, you know, for each one, and if you
Speaker 2: can use AI to kind of look at the student's
Speaker 2: history and then prepopulate something, and then add you know,
Speaker 2: a personal comment on top of that, which is basically
Speaker 2: what was being done already. That's a huge amount of
Speaker 2: administrative work. I know that's not really exactly in Cami's wheelhouse,
Speaker 2: but those are the kinds of areas that I think,
Speaker 2: you know, could really have a lot of impact.
Speaker 1: You were talking to him about the generative AI stuff,
Speaker 1: in particular automated grading, which which is great as long
Speaker 1: as you said that you still have those personal comments.
Speaker 1: You know what I sort of feared but sort of
Speaker 1: loved as well. When I was a kid at school.
Speaker 1: Was the comments in the margins from my teachers, all
Speaker 1: the red lines and the underscoring and the crossing out
Speaker 1: and the exclamation marks, that sort of stuff that showed
Speaker 1: that a teacher had read my essay and was passionate
Speaker 1: about me understanding how it could be improved. So making
Speaker 1: sure that that human touch is still there. Even if
Speaker 1: a lot of the basic grading is automated.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it'll be much harder on like long form essays,
Speaker 2: but even then you could get some basic stuff to
Speaker 2: be like, well, this looks like it's probably going to
Speaker 2: be in this range. Here are some areas, some sentences
Speaker 2: you might want to look at. Here are some issues
Speaker 2: that you might want to address with the student around
Speaker 2: spelling or grammar or sentence construction or word use choice,
Speaker 2: and those kinds of things can be automated. The general
Speaker 2: feel of an argument is always going to have to
Speaker 2: be a teacher, I think, because although you know AI
Speaker 2: could potentially take some of that load, you probably don't
Speaker 2: want it to because the margin of even if it's
Speaker 2: a two percent margin of error, that's still too big
Speaker 2: when you're dealing with education. I also really like this
Speaker 2: idea of having like a little personal assistant, a little
Speaker 2: you know, AI assistant that knows a lot about your
Speaker 2: topic that students can access to ask first tier questions
Speaker 2: like that, first tier support using chatbots for that.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, I could see the barriers to entry for
Speaker 1: that to be really really low. I mean, if you
Speaker 1: feed in a database of all your curriculum notes and that,
Speaker 1: I think, you know, a co pilot could do quite
Speaker 1: a good job of that now in terms of just
Speaker 1: giving you answers to history questions or geography or whatever.
Speaker 1: But I think that the real breakthrough, and no one
Speaker 1: really is talking too deeply in education about this year
Speaker 1: because it is difficult to do well, is a genuine
Speaker 1: co pilot for the student that goes on them throughout
Speaker 1: their entire learning process, potentially over a decade or longer.
Speaker 1: Where for instance, I was terrible at maths at school.
Speaker 1: I really struggled, and I got coaching in maths. I
Speaker 1: hated going after school to do another hour of maths.
Speaker 1: But if I had a copilot that was looking at
Speaker 1: my test results, looking where I was struggling, giving me
Speaker 1: suggestions and tuition that I could do in a nice,
Speaker 1: easy digital format, that would be really useful and so
Speaker 1: that involves probably a little bit more complexity. There's all
Speaker 1: the curriculum information, but also analyzing my performance and giving
Speaker 1: me suggestions to improve it. There's a whole pedagogy that
Speaker 1: needs to be developed in the AI driven world to
Speaker 1: support all of that. But I think that's going to
Speaker 1: be the big game change of for students.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, kind of getting used to using
Speaker 2: these tools in a way that is supportive of how
Speaker 2: you do your work. I think that's going to be
Speaker 2: really important as these students move into the workplace. So
Speaker 2: these may not happen in primary school or even intermediate,
Speaker 2: but as they start to get into high school, having
Speaker 2: the ability to know when to ask a chatbot something
Speaker 2: and how to ask, and what the limitations are and
Speaker 2: you know what their strengths are. Learning those through education
Speaker 2: I think is going to be super valuable as you
Speaker 2: then emerge into the working world and may have to
Speaker 2: rely on one to actually do your job. If you're
Speaker 2: not familiar with it, it may actually, you know, hold
Speaker 2: you back a little bit in the long run.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So well done to Hinji Wang and team staying
Speaker 1: on at CAMI at least for the time being, as
Speaker 1: this big US company takes a controlling stake in it,
Speaker 1: so they seem to seem to be poised really for
Speaker 1: excellent growth, particularly in the US, which this Boston based
Speaker 1: investment company I think is particularly interested in the US market.
Speaker 1: So it seems like it's onwards and upwards for them,
Speaker 1: with a dose of AI thrown in.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, congratulations came and all the founders there. That's our
Speaker 2: show for another week. Thank you very much to henji
Speaker 2: Wan for taking the time to talk about CAMI, AI
Speaker 2: and education.
Speaker 1: Show notes on Cammi's big payday. Some background reading on
Speaker 1: AI and education and coverage of those Apple announcements are
Speaker 1: in the show notes. You'll find them in the Tech
Speaker 1: section of the Business Desk website, and.
Speaker 2: The Business of Tech is of course on iHeartRadio and
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Speaker 2: favorite app to help boost our exposure and get in
Speaker 2: touch with me with your feedback, ideas, topics, and guest suggestions.
Speaker 4: Email me Ben.
Speaker 2: At Businessdesk dot co, dot z or find us both
Speaker 2: on LinkedIn and sometimes x.
Speaker 1: Another dose of the Business of Tech coming your way
Speaker 1: next Thursday.
Speaker 4: Catch you then,