1 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Hilda. 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Violence towards 4 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 2: children is one of the most concerning issues in New Zealand. 5 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 2: It's a debate that spans decades back when Child, Youth 6 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 2: and Family was responsible for our most vulnerable before it 7 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 2: was replaced by Langa Tamariki, and that government agency bears 8 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 2: the brunt of trying to look after our children and 9 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 2: keep them safe from harm. But recent reports have shown 10 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,480 Speaker 2: that not only has little changed in terms of family harm, 11 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 2: children that do end up in care are still at 12 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 2: risk of abuse. We'll discuss more on those issues later, 13 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 2: but first on the Front Page ends at Herald's senior reporter, 14 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 2: Nicholas Jones joins us to discuss one recent case he's 15 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 2: investigated where Child Protection Services had to apologize for getting 16 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 2: it wrong. Nicholas, can you explain a bit of the 17 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 2: background to the story of Sarah, a woman on the 18 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 2: autism spectrum? I believe in how she led to enduring 19 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 2: having her newborn uplifted. 20 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, this was back in twenty fourteen and Sarah, that's 21 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 3: not her real name. She was a young first time 22 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 3: expectant mum. She had a diagnosis on the autism spectrum 23 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 3: and a past diagnosis of an intellectual disability and child 24 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 3: youth and Family as it was called back then, they 25 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 3: became worried that she wouldn't be able to safely parent 26 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 3: her child. That was despite the fact she had strong 27 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 3: family support, including from her own mother. A SIF social 28 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 3: worker staff in the maternity ward to kind of keep 29 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 3: a really close watch on Sarah after she gave birth 30 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 3: totally exhausted from a hard labor emergency sea section, she'd 31 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 3: had blood loss, and she had a wound infection. But 32 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 3: in the days after the birth, the observations sort of 33 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 3: compiled by the hospital staff were used to justify taking 34 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 3: her baby. Things that were noted down where she was 35 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 3: easily distracted and on her phone too much. She became 36 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 3: distressed and angry at her baby's crying at one point, 37 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 3: and she struggled to settle her baby. When her son 38 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 3: was five days old, so IF social workers called a 39 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 3: meeting with the family, and while that was going on, 40 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 3: they took the baby from the hospital. He was later 41 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 3: placed into a permanent home for life, sort of a 42 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 3: permanent adoption. 43 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 2: She has her own experiences of being through the care 44 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 2: system as well. 45 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 3: Hey yeah, When she was young, like a toddler herself, 46 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 3: her baby brother was born with a really serious condition 47 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 3: that required and to spend a long stretchers in hospital. 48 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 3: Her mom was a solo mum at the time, and 49 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 3: that put immense strain on her. And when Sarah's brother 50 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 3: died when she was still a toddler, and her mom 51 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 3: sort of essentially suffered a break down and could no 52 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 3: longer care for Sarah properly, and she spent time in 53 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 3: state care and later lived with a relative. Her mom's 54 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 3: life kind of slowly got back on track and improved 55 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 3: greatly when she married her current partner, and when Sarah 56 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 3: moved back in with them when she was age fifteen, 57 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 3: her life really improved as well. After Sarah's pregnancy, her 58 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 3: mum helped her into a flat that was just minutes 59 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 3: walk from the family home. Sarah wanted that independence, but 60 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 3: her mom planned on being very closely involved in raising 61 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 3: her son and was going to stay at the flat 62 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 3: whenever needed. 63 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 2: So this battle to try and get her son back 64 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 2: it took nine years. What result did they finally get 65 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 2: from the ombe bodsmen? 66 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, the family repeatedly complained to Child Youth and Family 67 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 3: which is now called Iruna Tamariki, and they complained to 68 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 3: others like the hospital, but they were basically dismissed. Iran 69 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 3: and Tamariki claimed Sarah quote was given every opportunity at 70 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 3: the hospital to show that she could learn new parenting 71 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 3: skills and bond with her baby. The family eventually were 72 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 3: told by a friend about the Ombardsman office and they 73 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,480 Speaker 3: complained to the Chief Ombardsman, Peter Boshia, who he looked 74 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 3: at the case and he was pretty alarmed by what 75 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 3: had happened. He thought the claim that Sarah had been 76 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 3: given every opportunity to parent her son in those days 77 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 3: and the hospital was unsustainable and entirely unreasonable. 78 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: Chief Ombardsman today released a comprehensive report after his office 79 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: poured through more than two thousand complaints about the troubled agency. 80 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 1: Some of the experiences he looked into were extremely distressing, 81 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: including arangata he kept in an institution against their wishes 82 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 1: for years, a young disabled mother whose baby was uplifted 83 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: at birth never to be returned, as well as incorrect 84 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: and biased information being provided to the family court. 85 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 3: He was also concerned that there was really little attempt 86 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 3: by Sif and the social workers to properly understand Sarah's 87 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 3: disability and her autism, or even really look into what 88 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 3: support could be available to help her be a parent. 89 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 3: He recommended Orang a tamariki apologize and make a payment 90 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 3: to the family, which it did so, and Ot sent 91 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 3: the family a letter that said, quote, we should always 92 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 3: be mindful that a disability does not negatively impact a 93 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 3: person's parenting capabilities. We hope that your experience is not repeated. 94 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 2: Does she have any contact with her son today? 95 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 3: By the time the Ahmudsman and sort of looked into 96 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 3: the case and made his recommendations, Sarah's son was aged six. 97 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 3: He is now ten and he remains living with his 98 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:13,679 Speaker 3: adopted parents. Currently, he doesn't have contact with his birth 99 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 3: mum or her family. Sarah has a long term partner 100 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 3: and she wants to start a family, but she's too 101 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 3: scared to do so. While living in New. 102 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 2: Zealand, we often hear ordering a tamariki. There are some 103 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 2: issues with it. Right, this happened when it was child, 104 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 2: youth and family. Are you confident that anything's changed this case? 105 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 3: And the Ombudsman's sort of findings or criticisms was a 106 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 3: factor in a recent kind of review or overhaul of 107 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:47,919 Speaker 3: Oranga Tamariki's disability policy. Basically their policy that kind of 108 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 3: guides how they interact with disabled parents or children. They 109 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 3: say they've made other changes like higher staff who are 110 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 3: more sort of specialized in the disability areas. Peter Boshia, 111 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 3: the chief armersman, that question and he said he can't, 112 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 3: of course, sort of guarantee that things won't reoccur or 113 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 3: problems come back. He is happy with a lot of 114 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 3: the changes made, but he does say Orang Tamriki have 115 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 3: a lot of work still to do. 116 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Nicholas, and you can find a 117 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 2: link to Sarah's story in our show notes. While Sarah's 118 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 2: son was taken from her by Child Youth and Family, 119 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 2: that organization was replaced by Urranga Tamariki in twenty seventeen 120 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 2: and has faced many of those same concerns since then. 121 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 2: A recent report by the Independent Children's Monitor, released two 122 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 2: and a half years after the death of Malachai Subats, 123 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 2: has found that system wide change is still needed. 124 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:59,239 Speaker 1: Malachai Subeks was an invisible child within the system. 125 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 4: That is then the state and conclusion of an investigation 126 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 4: into the death of the five year old murdered by 127 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 4: his caregiver. 128 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 2: But more on this. We're joined now by Aaron Jones 129 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 2: from the Independent Children's Monitor. Aaron, can you remind us 130 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 2: of how the tragedy of Malachi led to this report? 131 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 5: So following his death, government agencies looked at their role, 132 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 5: what they knew, what they could have done differently that 133 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 5: might have produced a different outcome. And then one of 134 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 5: the things they also asked was for Dame Curen Patasi 135 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 5: to come in and complete an independent review, which she did. 136 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 5: She made fourteen recommendations. She saw gaps in the child 137 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 5: protection system, and she's made fourteen recommendations on how that 138 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 5: can be improved. One of those recommendations was for us 139 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 5: to come back and report on progress to close those gaps, 140 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 5: which is what we've done and that's what our report 141 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 5: talks to. 142 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 2: Your report's quite detailed, hey, but can you give us 143 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 2: kind of the main points found by the Independent Children's Monitor. 144 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 5: The key thing is of those recommendations that she made, 145 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,199 Speaker 5: none of them have been implemented apart from one. The 146 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 5: only one that was was for us to come back 147 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 5: and review progress. So that's pretty sobering. And these recommendations 148 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 5: went across a number of agencies, so we're not just 149 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 5: talking about all doing a tamariki here, it's other government agencies. 150 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 5: They have a role in the system, whether that's education, health, corrections, police, 151 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 5: they all have a role in keeping children safe. And 152 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 5: so while work had been done at a discussion and 153 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 5: planning level, decisions haven't been made to either implement those 154 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 5: recommendations or not or actually make or pack steps to implement. 155 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 5: So that's a concern. 156 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 2: How wide spread is the risk for harm towards children 157 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 2: and their families in their own homes. 158 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 5: The most recent data that we have and that we 159 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 5: refer to in that report is from Child Matters, which 160 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 5: talks about one child being killed every five weeks in 161 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 5: New Zealand, and we know that that's high in comparison 162 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 5: to other countries around the world. So we have a problem. 163 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 5: As everyone would say, you know, any child is killed 164 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 5: is one too many. But when you hear about one 165 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 5: child every five weeks, that's of concern. So what you 166 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 5: see is you have actually a lot of children and 167 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 5: young people being reported to wardung A tamariki as being 168 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 5: at risk of harm, and so over a lifetime. It's 169 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 5: quite staggering. Almost a quarterable children in New Zealand are 170 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 5: known to ardung a tamariki at some point. So you 171 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 5: have around fifty eight thousand kids or reports a concern 172 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 5: being made about kids in New Zealand every year and 173 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 5: so that's five percent of our children and our young 174 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 5: people in New Zealand, so quite high, I think. The 175 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 5: thing to remember though, although reports the concern are made, 176 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 5: they will be varied in terms of the extent of 177 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 5: the harm that people are seeing. So it could be 178 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 5: for example, a child not having had breakfast right up 179 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 5: to the most serious end, you know, such as a 180 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 5: Malachi's case, where people knew that abuse was occurring or 181 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 5: likely to be occurring, and letting what aung a tamariki know. 182 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 2: So what are the current options for getting children out 183 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 2: of harm's way? Is unga tamariki bearing the burden largely 184 00:10:57,840 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 2: here We. 185 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 5: Did talk about that in a report. There's certainly a 186 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:04,319 Speaker 5: sense that this becomes the issue for udung a tamariki 187 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 5: to solve, or the issue for that sometimes the police 188 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 5: it kind of gets dropped with them and certainly order 189 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 5: a tamariki. They've got a statutory obligation, but actually we 190 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 5: also need to think more broadly in terms of everyone's 191 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 5: role from community, you know, from neighbors, from friends, from Farno, 192 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 5: right through the government agencies to make sure that we're 193 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 5: keeping kids safe and doing the right things. But once 194 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 5: a report of concern comes through to ordering a tamariki, 195 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 5: then something needs to be done rome So we had 196 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 5: to look at that in our report to see how 197 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 5: that operates, and what we saw was certainly what happens 198 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 5: is a call comes into ordering a tamariki and they 199 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 5: make an assessment about the response. And like I said, 200 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 5: some of these calls will be at a low end 201 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 5: in terms of concern right up for serious end, so 202 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 5: they make a consideration around what the response is. For 203 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 5: a number this will be that no further action is taken. 204 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 5: And what we saw is that when reports a concern 205 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 5: or followed through to the site, they're making an assessment 206 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 5: about whether to act or not undulian influenced by the 207 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 5: resources that they have. So fifty percent of these cases 208 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 5: are classified as no further action, and it's quite varied 209 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 5: around the country, so you've got a bit of a 210 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 5: post code lottery happening here. So for example, if you're 211 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 5: in christ Church, a reporter concern is less likely to 212 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 5: be acted upon than it would be in Auckland, so 213 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 5: you've got a variability in the threshold. There's also concern 214 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 5: about though, even if ordering atomidiki aren't acting in their 215 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 5: statutree capacity, you know at the very serious end of 216 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 5: stepping in. Nevertheless, there's something going on in the life 217 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 5: of that child, and so how can we make sure 218 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 5: that there are services that are available to that family, 219 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,079 Speaker 5: to that child to assess their need, whether it's a 220 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 5: need such as not having shoes to come to school 221 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 5: to which could actually be an indicator of further concerns 222 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 5: of neglect. So the question is do we have a 223 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 5: system that, yes, at one point ordering an tamidiqui we 224 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 5: need to make sure they are acting when they're needed, 225 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 5: but also making sure that we've got services in place 226 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 5: to get through the door, to visit with the family, 227 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 5: to see the child most important, understand what the needs 228 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 5: are and then make sure that those needs are met. 229 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 5: And if those needs are at that serious end, then 230 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 5: making sure it comes back to ordering a tamariki and 231 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 5: making sure that they act to keep that child safe. 232 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 5: It's not always going to be about taking a child 233 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 5: out of a home. It will be when that's necessary, 234 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 5: but it could be about just putting supports and services 235 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 5: in place for that family so that they can actually 236 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 5: parent them the right way and that child can be 237 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 5: cared for. Now. The other part that we call out 238 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 5: in that report is of concern is that when you're 239 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 5: seeing professionals NGOs eemilori providers who are getting through the 240 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,199 Speaker 5: front door, visiting with family then making a reporter concern, 241 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 5: only fifty percent of those of them being acted upon 242 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 5: by warding a tamariki. And what they tell us is 243 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 5: that they've exhausted every option within their own toolbox to 244 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 5: support this family. But now it's the harmers at a 245 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 5: point or the needs are so great that they need 246 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 5: the statutory intervention. And what our report is saying is 247 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 5: that the response is variable and therefore we have gaps 248 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 5: in the child protection system. 249 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 6: The Royal Commission sees to invasive abuse that's uncovered must 250 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 6: lead to a new care safe agency. 251 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 5: Our system is just a total mess, is designed to 252 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 5: just some power and destroy Parlo. 253 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 6: The Rural Commission found there is no future for audoing 254 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 6: a tamaiki. It recommended the state handover power, funding and 255 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 6: control to care services at a local level. 256 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 2: Variations of this agency or tamariki have been around for decades. Right, 257 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 2: why are we still talking about these issues today? Why 258 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 2: can't we seem to get an agency that works? 259 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 5: I think what you have is from our perspective and 260 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 5: what we hear. So throughout monitoring, we spend considerable time 261 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 5: in communities listening to tominique and angatahi and caregivers and 262 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 5: faro or a tamiki staff, education health staff to understand 263 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 5: how the system is operating, understand when it's working well, 264 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 5: and what needs to change to make it better. When 265 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 5: we look at ordering a tamaniki based on what we 266 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 5: hear and what we see is you've got an organization 267 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 5: that is under pressure. Like I said at the start 268 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 5: of this conversation, often agencies are seeing it as a 269 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 5: problem for what ang a tamariki to solve and they're 270 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 5: not able to deliver to the standard that they would want. 271 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 5: So talk about it in two parts. One is this 272 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 5: discussion we're having about reports a concern and actually being 273 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 5: able to get out and see that child to make 274 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 5: sure that they are safe. And this goes directly to 275 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 5: the story of Malachi, so nobody actually went out and 276 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 5: saw him at home with his keygiver. Had they done that, 277 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 5: we may have had a different outcome for him. So 278 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 5: that's one thing. The second part is when we actually 279 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 5: look at the tamariki that come into state care. There 280 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 5: are key standards that ding a tamariki are required to 281 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 5: meet and these are minimum standards and we report on 282 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 5: these each year, and they're not meeting those standards for 283 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 5: every child that's in their care. Got to remember, taking 284 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 5: a child out of a home is incredibly traumatic. When 285 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 5: we do that, and the state effectively becomes the parent, 286 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 5: You've got to make damn well sure you do a 287 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 5: really good job, and that's what these standards are there for, 288 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 5: and ordering a tamique aren't able to meet them. And 289 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 5: so I point to a couple that are key. One 290 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 5: is social work is visiting tamique and being there for them. 291 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 5: They're not able to meet that at the standard that 292 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 5: they set for themselves, and it hasn't changed over four years. 293 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 5: So something is not occurring despite them saying they're prioritizing it. 294 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 5: That's enabling to get ahead of this. And if you 295 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 5: go back and think about child safety again, if you're 296 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 5: not there in the household for that young person. You're 297 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 5: not going to see things, You're not going to be 298 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 5: able address their needs and put services in place to 299 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 5: help them, and it leaves them in harm's way. And 300 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 5: so it's an agency that's under pressure and struggling to 301 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 5: be able to meet these standards. You're right, it's been 302 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 5: an issue for a long time. These are difficult problems 303 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 5: to deal with, but they need to find a way 304 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 5: to achieve these standards. But also they need the help 305 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 5: of others, And so here I'm talking about making sure 306 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 5: that other government agencies are prioritizing these kids in the 307 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 5: same way and making sure that their services are prioritized 308 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 5: around these cares so that they can be kept safe, 309 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 5: they get the services they need, and they can then thrive. 310 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 2: Are there some issues with their priorities here? If you 311 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 2: look at the case of Sophie we spoke about earlier, 312 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,360 Speaker 2: a neurodivergent woman who wasn't given a chance to try 313 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 2: and raise her child, had him taken away from her. 314 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:31,120 Speaker 2: Yet many parents are abusing their children without anyone seeming 315 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 2: to notice. Where do the priorities lie between that uplift process? 316 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,159 Speaker 5: I guess I think what we've probably seen an observation 317 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 5: is sometimes the pendulum swings, and so we've seen a 318 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 5: bit around here in terms of the pendulum swinging, probably 319 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 5: in the past in terms of actually very risk averse 320 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 5: and bringing tamariki into kre and so you've seen high 321 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 5: rates of children in state care. I think we've seen 322 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 5: cases of current and obviously this case is slightly different, 323 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 5: but cases that have been reported in the media where 324 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 5: talmuliki you've probably been uplifted unnecessarily or removed from a 325 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 5: home unnecessarily, and so the pendulum can sometimes swing back 326 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 5: the other way. We know it's really important for kids 327 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,199 Speaker 5: to avoid the former of being removed from a household, 328 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 5: so pendulum can sometimes swing towards actually trying to keep 329 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 5: them in the home. Now, what's important is actually not 330 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 5: letting the pendulum swing, but sticking to very good practice, 331 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,239 Speaker 5: consistent practice. And it can be challenging because there are 332 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 5: subjective decisions to be made based on the informations available, 333 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 5: but that consistent practice isn't necessarily there, and this is 334 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 5: why you see variations. You see cases where kids have 335 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,719 Speaker 5: been removed when perhaps they shouldn't have and maybe services 336 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 5: could have been put in place to keep them in 337 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 5: the home and keep them safe, or cases where children 338 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 5: aren't removed when perhaps they should have been for their 339 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 5: own protection. 340 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 2: It's difficult to make that decision, though, isn't it, Because 341 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 2: if there are concerns about a parent abusing a child, 342 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 2: the parent isn't going to say, yes, I hit my child. 343 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 5: Actually, Chelsea, you're hitting on one of the recommendations that 344 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 5: Dame Karen with point into, and this is around people 345 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 5: working together. So what you see in cases of serious 346 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 5: harm over decades now, the story is always there that 347 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 5: someone knew something, someone else knew something else. The pieces 348 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 5: of the jigs will never get put together. Had you 349 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 5: put them together, you would have run to their child. 350 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 7: The review found ordering attumbandy Kei failed to investigate concerns 351 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 7: raised by members of Malakay's FANO, His interactions with the 352 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 7: healthstem were disjointed. His childcare center failed to report Malokei's injuries. 353 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,360 Speaker 7: All safety nets and not a single one caught him. 354 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 4: There were those who tried to act but were not 355 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 4: listened to. There were those who were uncertain and did 356 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 4: not act. There were those who knew and chose not 357 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 4: to act. This is not acceptable. And we cannot look away. 358 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 5: And so what Dame Karen has recommended is that these 359 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 5: sort of what they call multidisciplinary teams that involve community providers. 360 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 5: You might have police at the table, health at the table, 361 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 5: education and warding a tamariki working together to put those 362 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 5: pieces together and collectively decide what is needed for this family, 363 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 5: what is needed for this child. That is your best 364 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:18,919 Speaker 5: option of making the very best decision. We always make 365 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 5: better decisions when we have more information. And so what 366 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 5: is concerning at the moment, and you've got pockets of 367 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 5: this practice around the country, but it needs to become 368 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 5: core business. And so one of the things we're seeing 369 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 5: at the moment is agencies, due to a range of pressures, 370 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 5: are pulling back to what they consider to be core business. 371 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 5: You hear about arding a tamareki in terms of some 372 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 5: of the changes they're making with providers at the moment, 373 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 5: they're pulling back to what they call is core business, 374 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 5: which is caring for kids that are in statutory care. 375 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 5: But it's at the expense of some of this work, 376 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 5: this collaborative work that is so important because it's not 377 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 5: necessarily seen as core business. And when it's not it's 378 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 5: always at the mercy of being lost, and so our 379 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 5: worry is actually, rather than progressing this kind of way 380 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 5: of working, we might start to see it being removed. 381 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 5: Our role is to go back out into communities and 382 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 5: see whether that is the case, and if it is, 383 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 5: will report on it. Because again, this is the thing 384 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 5: that's always been talked about through all of these reports 385 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 5: into the death or serious how of kids is where 386 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 5: we're agencies working together. We talked about barriers of sharing information. 387 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 5: We need to get past this and find a way 388 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 5: that we can collectively work so the right response goes 389 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 5: out to those kids. 390 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 2: Why do you think child abuse or child neglect or 391 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 2: kids dying? Why do you think it's so endemic to 392 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 2: New Zealand? And I just anincdotally. I remember when I 393 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 2: first moved to New Zealand ten years ago. Now, I 394 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 2: reported on two child deaths where a stepfather allegedly killed 395 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 2: their child within the space of like three months, and 396 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 2: that blew my mind. And then it kept happening again 397 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 2: and again and over my career. Over the last decade, 398 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,199 Speaker 2: I've probably done five or six. Do you think that 399 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 2: it is endemic of New Zealand? 400 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 5: It's a really difficult question, and I'm not necessarily qualified 401 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 5: to answer that one. I think there's probably researched out 402 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 5: there that might indicate some of the reasons why we 403 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 5: do the harm that we do. I think what we've 404 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 5: been focusing on, certainly in terms of that Dame Karen 405 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 5: Report and then our report following up, is knowing that 406 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 5: this is occurring, what can we as a country do 407 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 5: about it. These things have been known for a long time, 408 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 5: and I guess one of the frustrations around agency responses 409 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 5: to Dame Karen's report, the fact that the thinking is 410 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,640 Speaker 5: still being done or the planning, is actually, these things 411 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 5: have been known for decades. The thinking has been done, 412 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 5: it's the implementation. And you know, if and Dame Karen said, look, 413 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,640 Speaker 5: if it was easy, it would have been done. But equally, 414 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 5: I think we just have to get on and prioritize this. 415 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:46,959 Speaker 5: You know, our report we talk about you know, this 416 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 5: country we can do amazing stuff, and we put our 417 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 5: minds to it. You know, you just got to look 418 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:52,719 Speaker 5: at the response to COVID and I know, you know 419 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,479 Speaker 5: there are issues with that as well, but as a country, 420 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 5: we were very quickly able to focus on an issue 421 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 5: and address it, and we haven't managed to give that 422 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 5: same priority to the way that our children are harmed. 423 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 5: And there's certainly more that we can do. Dame Carrott 424 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 5: has pointed to some of those things. We see those 425 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 5: things in our regular reporting. The answers are there, we 426 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 5: just got to have a commitment to doing it. 427 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Aaron. That's it for this episode 428 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 2: of The Front Page. You can read more about today's 429 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 2: stories and extensive news coverage at enzeherld dot co dot z. 430 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 2: The Front Page is produced by Ethan Seles with sound 431 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 2: engineer Patti Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front 432 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 2: Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and 433 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 2: tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.