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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Sport Podcast with Jason Vine

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Speaker 1: from News talks 'b.

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Speaker 2: By our weekend sport coaching guru Wayne Goldsmith. Regular listeners

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Speaker 2: to the show will be well aware of Wayne's wisdom.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us as always, Mate, hit a new

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Speaker 2: book out, the Talent myth Why talent Isn't worth? I

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Speaker 2: won't say that word just in case broadcast standards issues arise,

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Speaker 2: but I think you get the gist. Why did you

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Speaker 2: write this one? Mate?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? You gay, party gay everybody there.

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Speaker 4: Look over the years, there's there's two or three threads

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Speaker 4: in my professional life they get coming up is one is,

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Speaker 4: why do we assume that every kid who picks up

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Speaker 4: a rugby ball could be, should be, wants to be

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Speaker 4: in the All Blacks? And why do we assume that

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Speaker 4: every kid who jumps into a pool wants to be

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Speaker 4: Michael Phelps?

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Speaker 3: Why do we Why.

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Speaker 4: Is it that we associate the playing of sport and

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Speaker 4: playing is the keyword when ultimate success. It's like saying,

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Speaker 4: if you're going to take hiking, you know, take up bushwalking, Well,

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Speaker 4: none of it's any good unless you've done everest. So

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Speaker 4: that always confused me. I thought, you know, there's playing sport,

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Speaker 4: enjoying sport, falling in love with sport, and then there's

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Speaker 4: the elite end of sport.

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Speaker 3: They're connected, but not for everybody.

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Speaker 4: The other thing that's really been a thread through my

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Speaker 4: professional life is parenting is you know, how do parents

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Speaker 4: help their kids not just be successful playing netball or

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Speaker 4: be good at cricket, but you know, how to parents

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Speaker 4: help kids just be great kids? How do they help

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Speaker 4: them with values like respect and hard work and honesty

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Speaker 4: and integrity. And so I'm kicking around these ideas to say,

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Speaker 4: all right, well, sport's bigger than just winning a grand

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Speaker 4: same in tennis. Parents are critical in the equation. What

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Speaker 4: I need to do is write a book that says

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Speaker 4: to parents, look, if your kid's been cut from the

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Speaker 4: elite junior development team, don't worry about it, because it's

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Speaker 4: bigger than that. You're helping your kids be great kids.

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Speaker 4: How do we then educate help parents deal with critical

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Speaker 4: moments like you know, the car ride home, or how

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Speaker 4: do we help parents deal with disappointment when kids have

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Speaker 4: been cut from teams.

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Speaker 3: I haven't made the success that they have to.

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Speaker 4: So I said, what I've got to do is show

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Speaker 4: that talent, and what we think of talent is there's

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Speaker 4: a myth. It's just a myth. Let's break all this

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Speaker 4: elitism stuff down and just talk about what sport's really

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Speaker 4: about and then how parents and coaches can help kids.

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Speaker 2: As with everything you know, at a you know, in

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Speaker 2: any sport and particularly at a young age, some kids

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Speaker 2: stand out.

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Speaker 3: They just do.

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Speaker 2: They stand out. But that's different, isn't it from talent?

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Speaker 2: In your mind?

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Speaker 3: Well, it really is. Pineyan.

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Speaker 4: Look, it's funny when you start talking about this.

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Speaker 3: Everyone's got one.

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Speaker 4: Of these stories of when I was playing football, when

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Speaker 4: I used to play tennis. Everyone listening to your show,

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Speaker 4: no doubt, has got a current story or an old

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Speaker 4: story where they could say, god, you know, man, when

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Speaker 4: I was at school and I was playing under twelves netball,

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Speaker 4: there was a girl on our team.

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Speaker 3: It was two point nine meters.

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Speaker 4: Well, let's exaggerate, but there was there was a player

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Speaker 4: in our team. She could score from anywhere. She was

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Speaker 4: twice the size, twice as big, just was a dominant player.

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Speaker 4: Everyone's got a story like that. But you know, everyone's

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Speaker 4: also got the follow up story, which was, you know

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Speaker 4: what happened to her? She never played after she was fifteen,

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Speaker 4: you know, and everyone's got even I and you know

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Speaker 4: where one hundred years old according to the kids. But

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Speaker 4: I grew up in Sydney playing rugby league, had great

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Speaker 4: dreams of playing for the Kennry Banks Down Bulldogs. My

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Speaker 4: problem was I wasn't good enough, wasn't enough, wasn't strong enough, and.

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Speaker 3: Had no talent.

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Speaker 4: But we had a guy on our team in the

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Speaker 4: SG ball. His name was Les Sutton and at under

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Speaker 4: fifteen level kid he scored one hundred tries in a season.

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Speaker 3: When this kid was big and strong, talk about a

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Speaker 3: man boy. He was incredible.

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Speaker 4: But he wasn't playing at sixteen because when it really

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Speaker 4: came down to the things that matter, hard work, working

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Speaker 4: with other people, being respectful, being coachable, being consistent with

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Speaker 4: his training, all those things, he didn't have any of

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Speaker 4: those things.

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Speaker 3: All he had was being.

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Speaker 4: Bigger, stronger and faster than everyone else. What they said

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Speaker 4: was he was talented. The rest of us weren't, And

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Speaker 4: so all the focus became on this guy and optimizing

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Speaker 4: the physical elements of his talent. And even in the

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Speaker 4: first chapter, I used the term and you and I

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Speaker 4: talked about this before. We've got to stop worshiping physical talent,

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Speaker 4: it is overrated. Worshiping size, strength, speed, precocious, talented young

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Speaker 4: age is such a misleading, misguiding way to look at sport.

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Speaker 2: So then are there qualities that predict athletics succeeds better

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Speaker 2: than physical attributes?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think they are. But the and this is

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Speaker 4: the conundrum that we've got. If I get two hundred

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Speaker 4: under twelve rugby players lined up in Welly tomorrow morning,

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Speaker 4: and someone says, find me the most talented kids, the

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Speaker 4: easiest thing to do is show me how many push

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Speaker 4: ups you can physical quality, show me how fast you

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Speaker 4: can run forty meters acceleration, physical quality. All right, we're

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Speaker 4: going to do a how far can you run in

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Speaker 4: five minutes test? Physical quality. We're going to do how

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Speaker 4: high can you jump? Or how long can you jump?

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Speaker 4: Physical quality? We rely on those things when we're doing

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Speaker 4: talent I detalent identification programs because they're largely objective. I

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Speaker 4: can get kids to do a shuttle run, so you

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Speaker 4: scored six, you scored nine, Therefore you're better at shuttle runs.

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Speaker 4: You've got high VO two max. Whatever it might be.

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Speaker 4: Their objective measures. If I start saying, you know what,

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Speaker 4: I'm looking for the kid who, when they're finished their

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Speaker 4: shuttle run, turns around in cheers on everyone else, because

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Speaker 4: it shows selflessness, it shows team behavior, it shows that

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Speaker 4: they care about their teammates, and they really love what

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Speaker 4: they're doing. I'm looking for the kids who've got who

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Speaker 4: turn up early and do some warm up and stretching

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Speaker 4: and prepare themselves because that shows commitment, dedication, that they

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Speaker 4: love what they're doing. Those things are largely subjective, and

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Speaker 4: that's the whole issue that we have and why this

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Speaker 4: is such a battle for all of us in sport

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Speaker 4: is that it's hard to argue with data. And even

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Speaker 4: though I can say to a parent, look, your kid's

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Speaker 4: brilliant at ten. However, no matter what the data says,

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Speaker 4: my experience, my background, everything I know says that unless

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Speaker 4: you build these other qualities, these characteristics and teach them

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Speaker 4: what I call the championship choices. Unless you teach those things,

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Speaker 4: no matter what the data says, they're just not going

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Speaker 4: to be there fourteen fifteen, sixteen and certainly not seeingior athletes.

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Speaker 4: So an answer to your question, the data says this,

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Speaker 4: what I'm measuring is almost the immeasurable things. The difficult

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Speaker 4: to quantify things, the behaviors and attitude things, but it's interesting.

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Speaker 4: I've just got off the phone to vern Gambana. Really,

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Speaker 4: if you're in sport, if you're in track and field,

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Speaker 4: particularly or swimming, Vern's are a legend. He's a genuine

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Speaker 4: global legend United States. And I've just been working with

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Speaker 4: Summer Macintosh, who has just broken multiple world records, won

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Speaker 4: world championship.

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Speaker 3: Gold medals in the sport of swimming.

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Speaker 4: She said, Canadian go and Vernon, iida, we're just talking

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Speaker 4: as two old guys do. And I've said, what are

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Speaker 4: the defining qualities of Summer? And he said, you know what.

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Speaker 4: She would get up an hour early before training to

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Speaker 4: make sure she had a good breakfast so she was ready.

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Speaker 4: And his words were, how many sixteen year olds are

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Speaker 4: doing that way? That's the sort of thing we're talking about.

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Speaker 3: Piney is that. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Sure, he's obviously got great physical talent because she's won

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Speaker 4: at the highest level, broke world records, all that stuff.

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Speaker 3: But immediately vern who's one of the people that I

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Speaker 3: really listened to, he said, But it's who she is.

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Speaker 4: It's her commitment, it's her passion, it's her resilience.

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Speaker 3: Those things that have taken her.

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Speaker 4: Talent from just raw physical abilities and turn them into

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Speaker 4: highly successful outcomes.

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Speaker 3: And the aim of the book is.

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Speaker 4: To say that the parents look having talent's great if

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Speaker 4: it's measurable, and yeah, great, I love that. But if

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Speaker 4: you really want to help your kids, show them how

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Speaker 4: to make difficult choices, Teach them the importance of respect

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Speaker 4: and being honest and working hard. Teach, you know, if

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Speaker 4: you're a coach, teach things like inquisitiveness, so that kids

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Speaker 4: go from just doing what they're told to do, the

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Speaker 4: kids going I wonder what would happen if I threw

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Speaker 4: the ball to the left instead of the right, What

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Speaker 4: would happen if I did that a bit faster?

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Speaker 3: Where you're teaching kids.

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Speaker 4: To be engaged and really invested in their own destiny.

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Speaker 4: They're the things that matter, but they're hard to see

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Speaker 4: sometimes pinety, they're hard to quantify. And it's this data

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Speaker 4: versus non data world that we're trying to marry together.

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Speaker 2: It's your right wine, it's something you and I could

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Speaker 2: talk about for hours and hours. And having the past,

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Speaker 2: this worshiping of a good talent in youngsters, Unfortunately, it

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Speaker 2: does still occur, and kids are left out of certain

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Speaker 2: teams or not make the one that they want to

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Speaker 2: make because they're told they're supposedly untalented, don't have what

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Speaker 2: it takes, that sort of thing. How do you how

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Speaker 2: do you boost your children? We've got thousands of parents listening.

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Speaker 2: How do you boost your children back up? What do

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Speaker 2: you say to them when they say, I don't want

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Speaker 2: to play anymore?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's good.

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Speaker 4: And I've got a section in the back of the

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Speaker 4: book where I say to take parents through the difficult

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Speaker 4: conversations that they're likely well, they're really the difficult situations

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Speaker 4: where they're going to have to have conversations or not

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Speaker 4: conversations sometimes saying nothing's just as powerful, where they're going

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Speaker 4: to run into those moments where you know, the kids

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Speaker 4: got pictures of silver ferns all over their wall everything,

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Speaker 4: silver ferns, have got autographs from players because they've attended

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Speaker 4: test matches and that's all they think about, and their

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Speaker 4: teen years of age and they've been cut from the

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Speaker 4: local under eleven rep team and then and they're devastated.

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Speaker 4: You know, they're for them, it's the end of the world.

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Speaker 4: It's it's and it's it's they're feeling such powerful emotions

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Speaker 4: of frustration, disappointment, anger, maybe anger at themselves or anger

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Speaker 4: at the coach you didn't select them, and all that's

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Speaker 4: going on, their mom and dadd are going, God, I

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Speaker 4: love this child.

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Speaker 3: I want to help them.

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Speaker 4: What do I say at this moment in time that's

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Speaker 4: that's got some sort of value other than some sort

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Speaker 4: of you know, glib off end comment like I'd say, kay, darling,

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Speaker 4: it doesn't really matter.

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Speaker 3: Well, of course it matters. It really matters to them

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Speaker 3: at that moment.

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Speaker 4: And that's when your solid gold parenting has got to

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Speaker 4: come out of the box and go, what do I

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Speaker 4: say to my child who's been cut or has missed out,

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Speaker 4: or in their view, has failed at that moment of

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Speaker 4: time when I'm hurting as much as they are, and

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Speaker 4: I can't show them that I've hurting. So the first

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Speaker 4: advice I give to parents is, first of all, allow

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Speaker 4: them to feel. Don't be tempted to jump in and

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Speaker 4: see the anger and hurt and say stop it, don't

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Speaker 4: feel just move on. Because we're human beings.

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Speaker 3: We've got to allow ourselves to experience.

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Speaker 4: To a degree, we're going to allow ourselves to experience

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Speaker 4: whatever for that moment, but then.

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Speaker 3: For the child to go.

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Speaker 4: You know what, it doesn't matter if I got selected

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Speaker 4: or not, or I got cut or not. My mum,

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Speaker 4: my dad, my brothers, my sisters, my nan you know what.

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Speaker 3: They love me no matter what. They're always there.

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Speaker 4: I've just failed to achieve something that's important to me,

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Speaker 4: but it doesn't matter to them.

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Speaker 3: They love me.

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Speaker 4: They show kindness, they respect, they listen to me. They're

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Speaker 4: there for me no matter what happens. That's the most

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Speaker 4: powerful thing you can do as a parent, because I

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Speaker 4: think what parents do Piony in that moment they want

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Speaker 4: to call over parents is they start to play the

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Speaker 4: role of coach. Psychologists, psychiatry counsel are everything they wanted

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Speaker 4: to trying to remove the pain.

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Speaker 3: And the hurt the childs early in that moment in time.

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Speaker 4: What I know working with a lot of psychologists on

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Speaker 4: my team is allow them to feel and to just

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Speaker 4: go through a period of feeling anger and frustration, but

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Speaker 4: then to look at you and go, my mum and

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Speaker 4: dad are brothers and sisters, m nanmgranted, my coach.

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Speaker 3: They stand by me no matter what happens.

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Speaker 4: What I get from them is consistency I get from

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Speaker 4: them support, unconditional love that then gives them the courage

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Speaker 4: and base and the strength to go, Yeah, okay, I'll

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Speaker 4: get up and go again.

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Speaker 3: Because that's in the end, that's what we want.

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Speaker 4: We don't want them to go through life trying to

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Speaker 4: avoid all experiences of trying something and failing, because it's

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Speaker 4: going to happen to all of us.

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Speaker 3: It's happened. But we want them to go. You know what,

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Speaker 3: if I fail, I get up and go and again.

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Speaker 4: Christ, the people who matter in my life are always

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Speaker 4: there for me and for the parents listening that moment.

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Speaker 4: That's really what parenting is about. Is your child is hurting,

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Speaker 4: is struggling and going. But look at those two people,

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Speaker 4: that person standing there.

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Speaker 3: God, they just love me. No matter what, I'm going

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Speaker 3: to do it again.

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Speaker 4: If I fail again, the things that matter to me

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Speaker 4: are really still there. If you can do that as

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Speaker 4: a parent, you've done an amazing job.

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Speaker 2: Just a snapshot of the incredible advice that you'll find

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Speaker 2: in Wayne Goldsmith's latest book, The Talent Myth, Why Talent

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Speaker 2: Isn't Worth And I think you can complete the title.

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Speaker 2: It's available on Amazon dot Com right now. Wayne thanks

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Speaker 2: so much for joining us and giving us the benefit

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Speaker 2: of your expertise. As always, congrats on this book, mate.

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Speaker 2: We'll catch up again so well.

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Speaker 4: If there's anyone in this industry that's talented at you Piney.

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Speaker 3: We both know that.

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Speaker 4: You know I should write a book one day called

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Speaker 4: The Talent Unmith, the Jason Pinestory.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure you'd sell many, but it's always it's

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Speaker 2: always good to catch up, my friend.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, right, thank you very much.

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Speaker 2: Thank you Wayne Wayne Goldsmith there joining us in a

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Speaker 2: semi regular, in fact pretty regular fashion year on Weekend Sport.

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Speaker 1: For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live

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Speaker 1: to News Talk Set B weekends from midday, or follow

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Speaker 1: the podcast on iHeartRadio