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Speaker 1: You're listening to markets with medisine proudly sponsored by CMC Markets.

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Speaker 1: dot Co dot NZ.

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Speaker 2: The information provided in this program is of a general

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Speaker 2: nature and is not intended to be personalized financial advice.

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Speaker 2: We encourage you to seek appropriate advice from a qualified

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Speaker 2: professional to suit your individual circumstances. It's pretty tough at

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Speaker 2: the top of some of our major listed companies with

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Speaker 2: an executive exodus, meaning many without permanent leaders. Where are

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Speaker 2: all the CEOs?

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Speaker 3: It feels like there's been a bit more of a wave,

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Speaker 3: and I think if you look at the companies that

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Speaker 3: have lost CEOs, it has been the ones that have

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Speaker 3: been under a little bit of pressure and it's probably

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Speaker 3: putting it a bit lightly, isn't it. And there's been

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Speaker 3: a bit more scrutiny from shareholders, which is fair. I think,

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Speaker 3: you know, we do need to hold management to account.

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Speaker 2: Sudden departures of chief executives have become commonplace this year.

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Speaker 2: Fletcher Building's Ross Taylor Ryman Healthcare's Richard Umbers and the

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Speaker 2: warehouse groups at Grayston all left linked to poor company

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Speaker 2: performance circumstances. Fletcher's and the Warehouse have put internal candidates

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Speaker 2: and his acting CEOs on an interim basis, while Ryman's

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Speaker 2: chairman Dean Hamilton has taken the executive seat while its

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Speaker 2: permanent search continues. It's interesting it has been a coincide

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Speaker 2: ince of CEO's going, isn't it. Other moves include Simon

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Speaker 2: Mander resigning from Metro Glass, David Mayre from Scaler up

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Speaker 2: to Leeds Sanford, while Sky City's new CEO starts later

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Speaker 2: this month. Research from Craig's Investment Partners shows half of

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Speaker 2: all companies listed on the INSIDEX Top fifty index have

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Speaker 2: had a change in CEO since twenty twenty. Those with

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Speaker 2: the longest standing leaders are Main Freight with Don Braid's

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Speaker 2: more than twenty year tenure and Circo with Darren Grafton's

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Speaker 2: fifteen years. Also Vector Tourism Holdings, property developers, Argacy and Precinct,

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Speaker 2: Scales Corporation, Vulcan Steel, Fisher and Pikel Healthcare, and Turner's

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Speaker 2: Automotive Group. Craig's Investment Partners analyst most Singh ran the

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Speaker 2: numbers on the leaders and says changes at the top

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Speaker 2: were clearly required. Well, my good to see you. Always

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Speaker 2: good to be in TGA.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, welcome to the bay. We'll turn the sun on

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Speaker 4: for you. You have.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for that. It's so good. But look, first question,

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Speaker 2: we're are all the CEOs?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, big turnover, big turnover. And I guess this time

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Speaker 3: you know where we are in the business cycle. It's

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Speaker 3: not totally surprising. And I actually was sort of running

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Speaker 3: the numbers, and the average tenure in New Zealand.

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Speaker 4: For the fifty years is about five or six years.

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Speaker 3: So every year we lose sort of ten maybe five CEOs,

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Speaker 3: so it's not unusual.

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Speaker 4: It feels like there's been a bit more of a wave.

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Speaker 3: And I think if you look at the companies that

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Speaker 3: have lost CEOs, it has been the ones that have

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Speaker 3: been under a little bit of pressure. And it's probably

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Speaker 3: putting it a bit lightly, isn't it to say a

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Speaker 3: little bit of pressure. So it has been at that

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Speaker 3: hard end of town for earnings that we have seen

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Speaker 3: some exoduses.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it certainly feels like twenty twenty four is the

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Speaker 2: year of the executive exodus on our market. What has

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Speaker 2: led to that?

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Speaker 3: I think naturally the pressure comes on when when you're

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Speaker 3: not performing, and over the last few years, you know,

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Speaker 3: look at where the economy's gone the last six quarters.

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Speaker 3: You know, other than population growth, we've had negative GDP

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Speaker 3: if you look at it on a per capita basis.

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Speaker 3: So the demands down after a wave of euphoria sort

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Speaker 3: of twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two. So it's been

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Speaker 3: a tough place to be a CEO, and I guess

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Speaker 3: some of those that have been around for three or

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Speaker 3: four or five years have sort of looked at that

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Speaker 3: and gone, jeez, things are getting tougher. And there's been

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Speaker 3: a bit more scrutiny from shareholders, which is fair. I think,

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Speaker 3: you know, we do need to hold management to account

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Speaker 3: and boards to account. You've seen that, you know, come

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Speaker 3: up in lots of media more recently.

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Speaker 4: So I think it's partly natural, but probably.

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Speaker 3: Been expedited by poor performance from some companies.

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Speaker 2: If we look at the ones that were certainly linked

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Speaker 2: to poor performance, you've got the Warehouse Group and also

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Speaker 2: Rymean Healthcare. What was it about perhaps the misallocation of

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Speaker 2: capital and the decisions that were made in those companies

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Speaker 2: by those leaders that you think made their situations effectively untenable.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the.

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Speaker 3: Hard thing has been the matching of resource to demand.

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Speaker 3: Over the last four or five years, we had this

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Speaker 3: real boom and demand, and it was hard for people

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Speaker 3: to gear up and provide for that. And then as

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Speaker 3: you started to finally provide for that, you resource up,

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Speaker 3: all of a sudden demand's fallen through the floor. So

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Speaker 3: you've had this real mismatch and I think that's where

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Speaker 3: a lot of companies in New Zealand have been found

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Speaker 3: out a little bit. Is the demands come off massively

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Speaker 3: and really fast. We haven't seen interest rates go up

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Speaker 3: this fast for a long time, so that's where the

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Speaker 3: trouble has been that the allocation of resource has been

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Speaker 3: slow and companies just haven't been dynamic. And then I

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Speaker 3: guess in the case of someone like Ryman, it's been

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Speaker 3: more than one thing. You know, debt got a little

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Speaker 3: bit high, the cost of that debt went high. You know,

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Speaker 3: people weren't able to sell their homes through that COVID

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Speaker 3: period and it was tools.

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Speaker 4: Down so you couldn't keep building.

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Speaker 3: You know, you had huge amounts of construction projects that

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Speaker 3: were basically ground to a halt. So it's always it's

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Speaker 3: never one thing, is it's always three four five things.

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Speaker 3: But regardless, you know, we expect our management teams to

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Speaker 3: navigate through that. That's what they paid pretty handsomely for.

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Speaker 3: And some of those have have done better than others.

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Speaker 3: And you know, in that sector, Somerset seems to have

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Speaker 3: done reasonably well. So you can't say it's been a

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Speaker 3: sick to wide problem. You know, for the whole part,

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Speaker 3: some of it has been down to mismanagement.

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Speaker 2: To sum that up, then it kind of seems like

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Speaker 2: ZEP zero interest rate policy called them out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and maybe it's a harsh but harsh to say

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Speaker 3: there was a bit of complacency and laziness, but clearly

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Speaker 3: I think what caught them out was that zero interest

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Speaker 3: rate and then the firing to five and a half percent.

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Speaker 3: And we've held it here, and you know, there's lots

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Speaker 3: of calls now for that to get over the next

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Speaker 3: little while because the economy is clearly in a lot

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Speaker 3: of strife. But I think it's just been the acceleration

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Speaker 3: down to zero and then the acceleration up to five

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Speaker 3: and a half percent has.

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Speaker 4: Been really, really quick.

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Speaker 3: And with that, the dynamics of demand and pricing power

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Speaker 3: have moved quite quickly. You could put prices up as

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Speaker 3: a business to whatever you almost wanted a couple of

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Speaker 3: years ago. You try to do that today and customers

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Speaker 3: will walk out the door. We're seeing that in terms

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Speaker 3: of volume, demand come down, So I think it comes

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Speaker 3: down to people that have been dynamic and.

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Speaker 4: Able to cope with that.

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Speaker 3: Fisher and Pycal Healthcare I Reckon is a classic example

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Speaker 3: of that. Fantastic management, great company, our biggest, but demand

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Speaker 3: went through the roof for them through that COVID period,

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Speaker 3: and costs also went up because they were trying to

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Speaker 3: ramp up and they sort of took some of those

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Speaker 3: costs on the chin, and then demand fell quite quickly

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Speaker 3: because you had this oversupply or inventory stocking. But that

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Speaker 3: company has navigated those you know, Peer's quite well and

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Speaker 3: it's coming out the other side and has been a

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Speaker 3: silent performer this year, up twenty five percent. So it

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Speaker 3: can be done, even from our biggest companies. But when

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Speaker 3: it's not done, we end up at the other end

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Speaker 3: of the spectrum.

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Speaker 2: But how about also the use of that financing. Some

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Speaker 2: of these companies were paying dividends of debt the case

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Speaker 2: of Ryman for example. You've also spoken to me previously

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Speaker 2: about other companies that haven't done that and it's paid

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Speaker 2: off for them, like Ginrac. So can you talk to

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Speaker 2: me about the kind of difference and the use of

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Speaker 2: debt that we've seen coming out of the cycle on

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Speaker 2: the companies on our exchange.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's a funny one.

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Speaker 3: When things are going well, you want to take on

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Speaker 3: more debt and try and grow and make use of

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Speaker 3: that opportunity.

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Speaker 4: So there's a real balancing it. You can't be scared

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Speaker 4: of debt.

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Speaker 3: And you know, Don's a classic at Mainfreight who gets

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Speaker 3: grumpy with us for saying he's got a lazy balance

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Speaker 3: sheet because he's conservative.

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Speaker 2: Rod Jergot Briscos too.

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Speaker 4: Yah, absolutely so.

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Speaker 3: And look for more cyclical businesses, we don't want them

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Speaker 3: to take on a lot of debt, but for those

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Speaker 3: that have got good, stable demand profiles, we do want

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Speaker 3: them to use that debt to turbocharge growth opportunities when

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Speaker 3: they're there. What we don't want to see is, like

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Speaker 3: you say, is using you know, taking on with one

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Speaker 3: hand to pay with the other. So using debt to

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Speaker 3: pay dividends is not a great, great outcome. But and

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Speaker 3: now you're seeing some of those companies get caught out

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Speaker 3: where they took on a lot of debt and now

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Speaker 3: the cost of that debt has doubled or tripled in

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Speaker 3: some cases quite quickly, and you haven't been able to

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Speaker 3: grow your earnings to keep.

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Speaker 4: Up with that.

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Speaker 3: Not just similar to mortgage right, so that pressure is

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Speaker 3: coming on. I think it's just again comes down to

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Speaker 3: being ready for a rainy day. And the good companies

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Speaker 3: are always ready for a rainy day by having a

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Speaker 3: balance sheet that's not too stretched at any point in time.

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Speaker 3: And the classic for the capital markets in New Zealand

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Speaker 3: matter is.

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Speaker 4: Why you listed.

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Speaker 3: You listed because you have access to free capital quite quickly,

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Speaker 3: not free, but easy access to capital.

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Speaker 4: Auckland Airport borders shut down. They raised over a billion

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Speaker 4: dollars quite quickly in New Zealand.

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Speaker 3: In New Zealand, many companies Ozzie was you know, all

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Speaker 3: over the show through that period and it worked well

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Speaker 3: for listed companies. So there is a place you know

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Speaker 3: to do that when you need it. But I think

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Speaker 3: it's you know, those that are prudent get rewarded with

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Speaker 3: easy access to capital, and those that haven't been prudent

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Speaker 3: and then come to market simply to pay down debt,

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Speaker 3: it's not rewarded that well. Infantols a classic example, more

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Speaker 3: recently raised over a billion dollars Like that quite easy

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Speaker 3: to do when you can show what you're using it

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Speaker 3: for and it's for growth, not Hey, we've gone too

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Speaker 3: hard on debt and now we need to pay it down.

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Speaker 3: Can you give us some money to do that? So

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Speaker 3: it comes down to what are you using that equity for.

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Speaker 4: I suppose you.

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Speaker 2: Mentioned earlier that you think it's a good thing that

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Speaker 2: shareholders have clearly increased the scrutiny of our major listed companies.

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Speaker 2: But it kind of also feels a bit to me

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Speaker 2: like board members, especially chair people, are getting a bit

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Speaker 2: more ruthless. Is that a correct assumption?

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Speaker 3: And I think I think, you know, boards have a

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Speaker 3: little bit more onus on them these days, don't they.

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Speaker 3: They've got a bit more skin in the game, I guess,

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Speaker 3: around scrutiny and their own liability. So I'm not saying

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Speaker 3: that wasn't the case with board members before, but you

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Speaker 3: are seeing and.

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Speaker 4: There's probably a bit more public pressure. You know, Fletcher.

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Speaker 3: Building is top of mind at the moment around the

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Speaker 3: amount of pressure going on there.

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Speaker 4: So I always think.

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Speaker 3: About, you know, the particularly board chair people and the

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Speaker 3: CEO of a company kind of in the sports analogy,

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Speaker 3: that's the coach and the captain, right, So those two

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Speaker 3: have to be in sync and they kind of one

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Speaker 3: and the same or almost you know, Scott Robertson and

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Speaker 3: has kept and have to be really in sync. And

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Speaker 3: so I think that's translating into listed companies where if

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Speaker 3: the CEO is performing poorly, then scrutiny comes on first

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Speaker 3: the chair and then the wider board of who have

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Speaker 3: oversight over the management team.

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Speaker 4: So I think it's probably fair. And so I think now.

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Speaker 3: You're seeing those boards and those chair people put a

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Speaker 3: bit more acid on their management teams to say, hey,

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Speaker 3: we need to form otherwise we all feel the pinch.

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Speaker 3: And you know, who are the boards representing. They're representing shareholders.

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Speaker 3: So I think it's welcomed and great that we are

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Speaker 3: seeing a bit more of that pressure.

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Speaker 2: In the case of Fletchers, we are yet to get

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Speaker 2: a chairman replacement announcement. In the case of Ryman and

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Speaker 2: the Warehouse, we yet to get permanent CEO replacement announcements

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Speaker 2: there too. What does that say to you about succession

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Speaker 2: planning and perhaps how poor it is the fact that

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Speaker 2: these immediate replacements have not been found or at least

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Speaker 2: announced yet.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's funny.

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Speaker 3: I've sort of thought about this in the past, so

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Speaker 3: it's interesting it comes up today. Is you know, we've

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Speaker 3: had there's kind of two types of If a company

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Speaker 3: is doing well, then almost always the promotion to CEO

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Speaker 3: comes internally, and when a company is doing poorly, all

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Speaker 3: of a sudden there's a call to clear the decks

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Speaker 3: and look externally. And I think that's the difference you're

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Speaker 3: seeing here is Goodman Property Trust. James Spence has just

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Speaker 3: taken over. There, Scaler up. David Maher, who was CFO

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Speaker 3: for many years has taken over. There's lots of these examples.

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Speaker 3: Your Neil Barclay at Meridian was originally the CFO has

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Speaker 3: come into that role. So companies that are doing well,

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Speaker 3: you know, you want to keep that secret source. Fisher

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Speaker 3: and Pikele Healthcare, with Lewis Graydon taking here from Mike Daniel,

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Speaker 3: you want to continue that legacy and that secret source

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Speaker 3: for those companies that are doing well. Companies that are

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Speaker 3: doing poorly. You know, it's the market sees that we'll

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Speaker 3: hang on someone who was in the tent to begin with.

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Speaker 4: You're promoting them and giving them a go, but where

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Speaker 4: they not part of the problem.

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Speaker 3: So you are seeing I think that's the differential heir

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Speaker 3: the Fletchers and the Ryemans and so forth, is something's

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Speaker 3: fundamentally gone wrong here. We'd like a new fresh set

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Speaker 3: of eyes, or many fresh sets of eyes to kind

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Speaker 3: of see where things are at and clear the deck.

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Speaker 3: So that's why I think it's taking a little bit

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Speaker 3: longer at some of those more troubled businesses at the moment.

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Speaker 2: So the big question, then, I guess, is where do

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Speaker 2: these boards get these fresh sets of eyes from?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, we get the generic answer every time, don't we.

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Speaker 3: As there's an international search going on, and I'm sure

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Speaker 3: there is, But I think the key it comes down

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Speaker 3: to who is these boards need to probably and I'm

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Speaker 3: sure they do. So you know, I'm probably being a

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Speaker 3: little bit unkind, but think about what is it that

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Speaker 3: creates that secret source for a particular company. And it's

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Speaker 3: not the same for every business, right, every sector is different.

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Speaker 4: But that's probably the thing we've been asking.

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Speaker 3: A lot of boards of late is what are the

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Speaker 3: things you're actually what are the attributes you think are

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Speaker 3: most important in this business? You know, for a rhyme

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Speaker 3: and healthcare, is it to have you know, a real

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Speaker 3: health background and a care background or is it a

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Speaker 3: development background?

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Speaker 2: He said development?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's the classic there, right, is you know

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Speaker 3: what is it that you're actually looking for that you

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Speaker 3: think the business needs over the next three, five, you know,

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Speaker 3: eight years. And that's where I don't know where you

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Speaker 3: find these people, you know, you magic them up at somewhere.

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Speaker 3: You can't find greg foruns everywhere that come back from

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Speaker 3: being you know, superstars around the world and want to

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Speaker 3: run a New Zealand business.

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Speaker 4: So we are a small pool.

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Speaker 3: Yes we can look into nationally, but you know there

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Speaker 3: are some big businesses looking for those same you know,

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Speaker 3: high profile CEOs as New Zealanders. So there are very

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Speaker 3: good CEOs in New Zealand and very good management teams.

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Speaker 3: But it's about aligning you know, what the business needs

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Speaker 3: with those same I guess attributes that a new CEO has,

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Speaker 3: which is hard to get right.

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Speaker 2: Do you think maybe then it's going to have to

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Speaker 2: be a case of board members in these CEO searchers

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Speaker 2: having to be a bit more selective on certain skills,

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Speaker 2: basically agreeing that they're not going to get the jack

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Speaker 2: of all trades who can look over every part of

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Speaker 2: the business.

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Speaker 3: Well yeah, and I don't know that they should be

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Speaker 3: a jack of all trades. They should be time and place.

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Speaker 3: What does a business need at that point in time?

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Speaker 3: And if I come back to that rugby analogy again,

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Speaker 3: it doesn't it's not just the captain that's going to

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Speaker 3: make the team. It's going to be you know, having

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Speaker 3: the best forwards, the best backs. You know, so you're

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Speaker 3: going to have a team around them. And part of

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Speaker 3: that is probably giving your chief executive and your CFO,

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Speaker 3: because I think those two should work as a team

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Speaker 3: and be it, you know, your captain and vice captain.

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Speaker 3: But giving them free and to gather the troops around

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Speaker 3: them that they need and.

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Speaker 4: They think they want.

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Speaker 3: And that's where it comes back to that clearing the decks,

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Speaker 3: and you know, is that you can't bring a CEO

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Speaker 3: and but keep the same management team right right the

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Speaker 3: way through. They've got to stamp their own mark and

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Speaker 3: have the people that they trust, and you know, so

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Speaker 3: that's probably you know, I think the jack of all

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Speaker 3: trades is probably the wrong thing to do is get

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Speaker 3: the person you want to build culture, you know, lead

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Speaker 3: from the front and have a strategic brain, and then

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Speaker 3: you know, empower them to bring the right people into

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Speaker 3: into the business to grow it, because you know, you

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Speaker 3: don't expect Greg fan At in New Zealand to understand

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Speaker 3: how the mechanics of planes work or the engineering or

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Speaker 3: any of that stuff. You know, he relies on somebody

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Speaker 3: to do that. So it's just a matter of getting

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Speaker 3: the right person at the top who can delegate and

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Speaker 3: you know, trust the people around them.

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Speaker 2: How should shareholders in New Zealand feel about the fact

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Speaker 2: that there is such a lack of permanent leadership but

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Speaker 2: some of the biggest, most critical companies or perhaps there's

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Speaker 2: a positive spin on AMO and we're about to get

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Speaker 2: some fresh blood into these companies and it's actually an

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Speaker 2: exciting time once they're a pointed.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm going to take the glass half full approach.

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Speaker 3: I think it's actually shareholders should be happy about that

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Speaker 3: because the last thing we want to do is be

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Speaker 3: disgruntled and then not see change. So the fact that

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Speaker 3: we are seeing those leavers pulled change come in and remember,

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Speaker 3: you know, even when you see a fresh CEO then

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Speaker 3: doesn't mean that you know, they've suddenly just come out

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Speaker 3: of university and we've thrown them in the deep and

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Speaker 3: carry at Auckland Airport, who's been there a couple of

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Speaker 3: years now, has come from a twenty plus year career

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Speaker 3: in New Zealand, so you know, lots of aviation experience.

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Speaker 4: So you know, people that get promoted to.

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Speaker 3: These roles have you know, years and decades of experience

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Speaker 3: behind them. It's just about choosing I think, the right

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Speaker 3: people for that point in time. But yeah, as a

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Speaker 3: shareholder personally and obviously you know here here at Craigs,

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Speaker 3: we see that as positive. The change is a good

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Speaker 3: thing because we see that boards are not scared to

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Speaker 3: make the hard decisions and we are seeing progress in

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Speaker 3: the right direction.

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Speaker 4: When things have gone off track.

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Speaker 2: Maybe the solution could be throwing some young bucks in

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Speaker 2: the race. I mean, look at Zespriy Jason to break.

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Speaker 2: The new CEO as of this month is thirty six,

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Speaker 2: which is young by CEO standards.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, he would definitely be at the younger end of town.

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Speaker 4: And that's not a problem at all.

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Speaker 3: Right, But I think you know, It comes back to

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Speaker 3: your earlier point of you know, that internal promotion. That's

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Speaker 3: what I think we should really see because the best

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Speaker 3: companies in New Zealand that have endured all seem to

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Speaker 3: have that internal promotion.

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Speaker 4: And it is the CFO or the.

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Speaker 3: Chief operating officer or someone like that who has moved

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Speaker 3: into the chief executive role. You know, they've learnt from

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Speaker 3: someone who's very good and keept that secret source. That's

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Speaker 3: what I think could work really well porta towering heres

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Speaker 3: we sat classic example, Mark Ken's was a star, you know,

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Speaker 3: and now he's on a number of directorships.

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Speaker 2: But maybe the next year of Fletcher's perhaps.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I think he has thrown or he has

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Speaker 3: at least shown interest. I don't know where that's gone.

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Speaker 3: But you know, that's a classic example here of someone

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Speaker 3: doing a great job for a very long time and

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Speaker 3: then someone stepping in, you know, internally and moving into

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Speaker 3: that role. So I think we should see more of

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Speaker 3: that internal promotion going on in New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned the likes of Don Braid at Main Freight,

402
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Speaker 2: and he is, according to your research, the longest standing

403
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Speaker 2: managing director or CEO on the market currently. Circo also

404
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Speaker 2: with the CEO there, Darren Grafton sitting in that seat

405
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Speaker 2: for more than fifteen years. Does tenure matter in these

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Speaker 2: instances or is there perhaps also a danger to it

407
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Speaker 2: that kind of looks like perhaps there's not enough succession

408
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Speaker 2: planning going on.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it can work good and bad and

410
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Speaker 3: if i'm I'm going to get crossed off a few

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Speaker 3: Christmas lists. But you know, think about sky TV before

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Speaker 3: Sophie Maloney turned up. Yeah, were a long tenure with

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Speaker 3: John Fletpp and possibly too long towards the end of that.

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Speaker 3: So there are risks. But I think, you know, most

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Speaker 3: investors would like Don to be CEO for managing director forever.

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Speaker 2: I would like that too.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'd probably like to live forever.

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Speaker 3: You know, from an investor perspective, we would because he's

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Speaker 3: done a great job.

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Speaker 4: So is their risk?

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Speaker 3: I think, you know, the things it's not just about tenure,

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Speaker 3: it's it's sort of having some experience in the right

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Speaker 3: industry and a big one that we sort of forget his.

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Speaker 4: Skin in the game.

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Speaker 3: You know, has someone coming as a hot shot CEO

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Speaker 3: from the other side of the world who doesn't know

427
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Speaker 3: the industry, doesn't really know the key with psyche all

428
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Speaker 3: of that stuff, or have they grown up with the business?

429
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Speaker 3: Do they own shares themselves?

430
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Speaker 4: Are there? Is their remuneration somehow linked.

431
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Speaker 3: To what is best for shareholders you know, total shareholder

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Speaker 3: return through better performance, all those sorts of things. That's

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Speaker 3: where I think boards can do more. As you know,

434
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Speaker 3: and we are doing more. We're seeing a lot of

435
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Speaker 3: that is the right type of remuneration packages for executives

436
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Speaker 3: to get them more aligned to what is best for

437
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Speaker 3: all shareholders and all stakeholders. So that's where I think

438
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Speaker 3: we can see a little bit more nuanced. But that

439
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Speaker 3: longevity is great. It's it's good to have, you know,

440
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Speaker 3: some of that that longevity because we've got plenty at

441
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:06,719
Speaker 3: the other end of town where they've just turned up

442
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:10,959
Speaker 3: as CEOs. So a bit of balance and I'm too

443
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:12,680
Speaker 3: scared to say that don's been there too long.

444
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,440
Speaker 2: In the case of remuneration, though, that's a really interesting point,

445
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,399
Speaker 2: and perhaps let's finish there, because these CEOs are in

446
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,160
Speaker 2: such hot demand, you know, numerous companies need them. Hence,

447
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,199
Speaker 2: while we're having this chat in the first place, are

448
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,560
Speaker 2: they going to be able to demand a much higher price?

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00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,440
Speaker 3: I think that I mean you know, it's again comes

450
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,880
Speaker 3: down to specific examples, but they're reasonably well remunerated.

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00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:35,040
Speaker 4: I think. In New Zealand.

452
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,000
Speaker 3: My point really is have an attractive base salary and

453
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,480
Speaker 3: then have you know targets that you can hit.

454
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,360
Speaker 4: That will pay you well if you hit those targets.

455
00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,520
Speaker 3: Because the business does well, you know, we grow employment,

456
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,800
Speaker 3: we grow you know, the tax base for New Zealand,

457
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:52,880
Speaker 3: all of those great things that New Zealand Inc.

458
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:53,600
Speaker 4: Needs as well.

459
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:55,800
Speaker 3: If we can get our leaders to come along for

460
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,359
Speaker 3: the ride for that, then yeah, absolutely reward them and

461
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,760
Speaker 3: incentivize them to do that. The other thing we probably

462
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,120
Speaker 3: don't see enough in New Zealand is target setting by

463
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,919
Speaker 3: companies and Turners is a great example. I mean, that's

464
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,200
Speaker 3: a business that shouldn't be doing well in the tough economy,

465
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,639
Speaker 3: but is doing really well. Todd Hunter there has and

466
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,679
Speaker 3: Aaron his CFO. They've done a great job of setting

467
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,639
Speaker 3: targets for profitability two three, four years out into the

468
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:23,119
Speaker 3: future to give a line in the sand and a

469
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,280
Speaker 3: bit of something to aim for, and they've managed to

470
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,960
Speaker 3: hit those targets for the most part. And we're seeing

471
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,240
Speaker 3: less and less of that in the listed space, where

472
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:33,680
Speaker 3: companies are coming out and I'm not sure. Maybe that's

473
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:35,719
Speaker 3: because our s analysts are being difficult to them and

474
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:37,120
Speaker 3: holding them to.

475
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:37,960
Speaker 4: Account too hard.

476
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,600
Speaker 3: But more target setting and more sort of aspirational numbers

477
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,359
Speaker 3: out therefore, everyone to sort of get behind and know

478
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 3: where the target is I think would go a long

479
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:48,120
Speaker 3: way to be Maybe.

480
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:49,879
Speaker 2: We might start to see in New Zealand some Elon

481
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,639
Speaker 2: Musk told Usha hold a return pay packets.

482
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm not sure.

483
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,359
Speaker 3: I think his paypacket is probably bigger than most of

484
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 3: our market combined, so I'm not sure we'll get to that.

485
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 3: But always interesting to know what's going on in Elon's life.

486
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 3: I don't know how you spend that kind of money,

487
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 3: to be.

488
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 4: Honest, it'd be nice, it wouldn't hurt.

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00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,119
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your time and for the insight.

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Speaker 2: It's been awesome. I appreciate it.

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Speaker 4: Thanks a lot,