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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks B. Follow

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Speaker 1: this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of the US, Now the

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Speaker 1: Leyton Smith Podcast powered by News Talks B.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Podcasts three hundred and two for September seventeen,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty five. Louise Klegg is a former barrister with

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Speaker 2: over two decades of experience in public law, also employment

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Speaker 2: law and a palette advocracy. Prior to the bar, she

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Speaker 2: was an associate at a leading national law firm, where

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Speaker 2: she worked for seven years. She appeared in hundreds of

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Speaker 2: matters before federal and state courts and tribunals, including the

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Speaker 2: High Court, the Federal Court and the New South Wales

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Speaker 2: Court of Appeal. Her practice spanned administrative, industrial, criminal and

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Speaker 2: anti discrimination law, with particular focus on judicial review and

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Speaker 2: public law questions. Is also economist and a regular contributor

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Speaker 2: to national public debate, and has published opinion pieces in

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Speaker 2: The Australian, The Australian Financial Review, Sydney Morning Herald and

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Speaker 2: Spectator of Australia, where she writes primarily on democracy, legal institutions,

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Speaker 2: public policy and political culture. She is also a director

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Speaker 2: of the Sydney Institute. Now, as a sort of introduction,

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Speaker 2: let me quote you just a couple of paragraphs of

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Speaker 2: an article she wrote for the Australian Financial Review a

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Speaker 2: couple of years ago. In nineteen eighty nine, as the

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Speaker 2: Cold War came to a close, a young American political

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Speaker 2: scientist called Francis fuku Yama made a name for himself

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Speaker 2: by proposing that the world had reached an endpoint in

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Speaker 2: political ideology and that liberal democracy was emerging as the

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Speaker 2: final form of human government. Subsequent events, she writes, particularly

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Speaker 2: nine to eleven and the increasing deliberalization rather than liberalization

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Speaker 2: of China, put a dent in Fokyamer's general thesis. Fast

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Speaker 2: forward to Trump, Rexit and beyond, and Fukuyama changed his

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Speaker 2: tune in a big way. In his twenty eighteen book

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Speaker 2: titled Identity, The Demand for Dignity and the Politics of Resentment,

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Speaker 2: Fukuyama posits that fragmentation based on alignment of interest into

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Speaker 2: identity groups has emerged as a new threat to democracy. Now.

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Speaker 2: I chose that specifically because it introduces precisely what he

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Speaker 2: was talking about when it comes to Charlie Kirk. Now

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Speaker 2: at the back end of the podcast, there'll be a

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Speaker 2: little more on Charlie Kirk, but I want to include

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Speaker 2: this at this point. This is some part of a

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Speaker 2: column written by Jonathan Turley, as in Professor Jonathan Turley,

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Speaker 2: who we quitte not infrequently and shamelessly, I might add,

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Speaker 2: but he says he right Below is my column in

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Speaker 2: The Hill on the murder of Charlie Kirk, the latest

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Speaker 2: victim of our age of rage. The evidence of Antifa

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Speaker 2: scribblings and indoctrination of the shooter came as no surprise.

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Speaker 2: For months, some of us have been warning Democratic leaders

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Speaker 2: about their dangerous rhetoric and how it would be received

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Speaker 2: by the most radical elements in the Antifa movement. So

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Speaker 2: here is the column prove me wrong. For years that

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Speaker 2: tagline of Charlie Kirk and his group turning Point USA

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Speaker 2: enraged many on the left. In an age of rage,

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Speaker 2: nothing is more triggering for the perpetually angry than an

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Speaker 2: invitation to debate issues. Indeed, someone has now killed him

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Speaker 2: for it. What is most chilling about the assassination is

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Speaker 2: that it was not, in the slightest degree surprising This

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Speaker 2: follows two attempted assassinations of President Trump and the killing

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Speaker 2: of a pair of Minnesota politicians. I heard of the

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Speaker 2: assassination in Prague as I prepared to speak about the

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Speaker 2: age of rage and the growing attacks on free speech.

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Speaker 2: I was profoundly saddened by the news. I knew Charlie

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Speaker 2: and respected his effort to challenge the orthodoxy on college campuses.

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Speaker 2: We all have received regular death threats, and Charlie more

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Speaker 2: than most, and there is still a hope that even

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Speaker 2: the most deranged will leave these threats at the ideation

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Speaker 2: rather than the action stage. This killer left Charlie's wife, Erica,

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Speaker 2: and her two young children as the latest victims of

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Speaker 2: senseless violence against someone who refused to be silenced. In

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Speaker 2: my book The Indispensable Rite, Free Speech in an Age

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Speaker 2: of Rage, I write about rage and the uncomfortable truths

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Speaker 2: for many engaging in rage rhetoric. What few today want

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Speaker 2: to admit is that they like it. They like the

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Speaker 2: freedom that it affords, the ability to hate and harass

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Speaker 2: without a sense of responsibility. It is evident all around

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Speaker 2: us as people engage in language and conduct that they

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Speaker 2: repudiate in others, we have become a nation of rage

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Speaker 2: addicts flailing against anyone or anything that stands in opposition

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Speaker 2: to our own truths. Like all addictions, there is not

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Speaker 2: only a dependency on rage, but an intolerance for opposing views. Indeed,

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Speaker 2: to voice free speech principles in a time of rage

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Speaker 2: is to invite the rage of the mob. Charlie was brave.

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Speaker 2: He was brash. He refused to yield to the threats

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Speaker 2: while encouraging others to speak out on our campuses. He

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Speaker 2: was particularly hated for holding a mirror to the faiths

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Speaker 2: of higher education, exposing the het and hypocrisy on our campuses.

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Speaker 2: For decades, faculty have purged their ranks of conservatives and libertarians.

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Speaker 2: Faced with the intolerance of most schools. Polls show that

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Speaker 2: a large percentage of students hide their values to avoid

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Speaker 2: retaliation from faculty or their fellow students, Charlie chose to

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Speaker 2: change all that. Tp USA challenges people to engage and

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Speaker 2: debate them. The response from some on the left has

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Speaker 2: been to trash their tables and threaten the students. Recently,

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Speaker 2: at University of California Davis, police stood by and watched

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Speaker 2: as the TPUSA tent was torn apart. Charlie is only

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Speaker 2: the latest such victim, and he is unlikely to be

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Speaker 2: the last. Well, there is a lot more that's only

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Speaker 2: scratching the surface of the column, but you get the picture.

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Speaker 2: So we'll have more on that a little later, but

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Speaker 2: at this point let's just say after a short break.

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Speaker 2: Louise klegg Leverix is an antihistamine made in Switzerland to

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Speaker 2: the highest quality. Leverix relieves hay fever and skin allergies

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Speaker 2: or skin It's a dual action antihistamine and has a

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Speaker 2: unique nasal decongestent action. It's fast acting for fast relief,

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Speaker 2: and it works in under an hour and lasts for

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Speaker 2: over twenty four hours. Lebrix is a tiny tablet that

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Speaker 2: unblocks the nose, deals with itchy eyes, and stops sneezing.

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Speaker 2: Lebrix is an antihistamine made in Switzerland to the highest quality.

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Speaker 2: So next time you're in need of an effective antihistamine,

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Speaker 2: call into the pharmacy and ask for Leverrix l v

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Speaker 2: Rix Leverrix and always read the label. Take as directed,

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Speaker 2: and if symptoms persist, see your health professional. Farmer Broker Auckland.

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Speaker 3: Layton Smith.

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Speaker 2: Let me quote you something. It is de rigueur among

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Speaker 2: US so called knowledge classes to lament the fall of America.

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Speaker 2: The refrain is familiar. The United States is in terminal decline,

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Speaker 2: democracy is all but dead, and a narcissistic authoritarian president

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Speaker 2: stalks the stage much like Hislo. Meanwhile, we're assured that

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Speaker 2: our democracies, calmer, more civil, and less polarized, are working

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Speaker 2: much better. The United States is consumed by chaos, while

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Speaker 2: Australia and the other Westminster countries are supposedly models of health.

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Speaker 2: It is a comforting story, especially for the supercilious progressive left. Now,

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Speaker 2: those words were the opening paragraph of an article that

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Speaker 2: I read a couple of weeks, back Sliding into Technocracy,

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Speaker 2: written by Louise Clegg. Louise Clegg is a former barrister.

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Speaker 2: She's had thirty years experience in the law. She's a

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Speaker 2: former barrister as she is now doing other things, and

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Speaker 2: she will possibly explain that to us in a moment.

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Speaker 2: But that opening captured me and I kept reading and

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Speaker 2: I thought, this is a must interview. I really want

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Speaker 2: to do it. Louise. I'm grateful that you agreed to

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Speaker 2: do the interview, and I appreciate it. Thank you.

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Speaker 3: It's a pleasure to talk with you lateron.

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Speaker 2: So sliding into technocracy and what I just read, where

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Speaker 2: does it go from there?

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Speaker 4: I have taken the view for a very long time

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Speaker 4: that this refrain as I described it, particularly from the

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Speaker 4: left about America, is wrong, or at least substantially wrong.

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Speaker 4: I should declare I'm a sort of student of institutions,

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Speaker 4: if you like. I did a law degree, but I

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Speaker 4: also had practiced and taught public law and constitutional so

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Speaker 4: I can at this from a very sort of strong

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Speaker 4: institutional perspective. And I'm also married to a politician over

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Speaker 4: here in Australia, so our conservative politician, so I sort

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Speaker 4: of see politics up close and quite personal at the

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Speaker 4: coal face, and so I sort of get a fairly

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Speaker 4: bit of sort of vicarious, sort of coal face exposure

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Speaker 4: to politics in a Westminster democracy. And unlike some Conservatives

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Speaker 4: I think, who tend to be very pro Westminster and

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Speaker 4: think that our parliamentary model is sort of perfect and

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Speaker 4: that the model of democracy in America is not as good,

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Speaker 4: I've always had a view that the one thing you

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Speaker 4: can say about America is that they have really good, robust,

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Speaker 4: open contest. And so I've never really accepted this sort

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Speaker 4: of strong narrative that is getting stronger, of course, because

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Speaker 4: of things that are going on in America, that you know,

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Speaker 4: America is bad and we're.

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Speaker 3: In great shape.

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Speaker 4: And I guess I've been a member of the sort

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Speaker 4: of technocratic class as a lawyer and as a lawyer

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Speaker 4: who worked for governments, and so I sort of have

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Speaker 4: a sense of perspective on that too. And I'm not

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Speaker 4: against technocrats or experts if you like, but I think

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Speaker 4: they have a place. And so my view has been

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Speaker 4: that while America sort of is having these great debates

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Speaker 4: and the contest, the political the democratic contest in America

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Speaker 4: is sort of out in the open.

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Speaker 3: I think that in.

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Speaker 4: The Westminster democracies, particularly in the last decade, as politics

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Speaker 4: as become more and more polarized, I do think that

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Speaker 4: we tend to say, well, look, those debates are hard,

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Speaker 4: we don't like them, and so what we'll get is

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Speaker 4: we'll get a commission of inquiry or an NGNGO or

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Speaker 4: a group of technocrats to look at this question and

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Speaker 4: we'll have it declared settled and we won't have a

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Speaker 4: political day about it.

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Speaker 3: And there is an attempt.

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Speaker 4: By Westminster politicians and also part of the sort of

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Speaker 4: elite class. And I don't use elites in a pejorative

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Speaker 4: way here later I mean, I think I just use

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Speaker 4: it in the way that political scientists do. But there

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Speaker 4: is a tendency for elites, particularly in Westminster democracies, or

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Speaker 4: that seems to be the way it's playing out at

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Speaker 4: the moment, to sort of say, well, look, don't you

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Speaker 4: worry about that. We'll sort out that question of you know,

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Speaker 4: on whether it's you know, the way our energy system

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Speaker 4: is conducted, or you know, will will we'll have a

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Speaker 4: voice to Parliament, or we'll settle all these sort of

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Speaker 4: quite fundamentally and inherently political questions by the so called

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Speaker 4: settled science when there's no settled science. And I think

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Speaker 4: that's going on a lot more in Westminster democracies than

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Speaker 4: it is in America. So I mean, with those that distinction,

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Speaker 4: where America tends to be more and more polarized, and

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Speaker 4: our politics is more and more polarized too, of course,

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Speaker 4: because a lot of the debates that democracies liberal democracies

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Speaker 4: are having now quite the global debates. They're the same

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Speaker 4: issues all around the world. But I do think that

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Speaker 4: we have this tendency to sort of try to silence

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Speaker 4: the debate and push it out of the political sphere,

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Speaker 4: and I've always liked the fact that America doesn't do that.

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Speaker 4: And fundamentally, I believe as an institutionalist that the reason

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Speaker 4: it is different in America now to the Westminster democracies

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Speaker 4: is fundamentally, or at least in part, or at least starts,

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Speaker 4: I should say, with the differences in our formal institutions.

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Speaker 2: I've said for as long as I can remember, that

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Speaker 2: the American Constitution is the greatest document that has of

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Speaker 2: its kind that has ever been written. Some people disagree

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Speaker 2: with that, but I think that that fits well with

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Speaker 2: your approach. It is the constitution that the Australians, or

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Speaker 2: that Australia based its constitution on. From your perspective and

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Speaker 2: being steeped in constitutional law, how close is that to accuracy?

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Speaker 4: Well, look, firstly, before I answered.

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Speaker 3: That directly, I agree with you. I've always been fascinated

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Speaker 3: with the American Constitution.

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Speaker 4: And so there's been a debate amongst conservatives and progressives

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Speaker 4: here for.

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Speaker 3: Many many years.

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Speaker 4: I mean when I was a young solicitor thirty years ago,

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Speaker 4: Conservatives were and remain actually very anti the Bill of

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Speaker 4: Rights in America, and progressive institutions and academics in Australia

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Speaker 4: have been pushing for either a constitutional bill of rights

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Speaker 4: in Australia in our written doctor document, or at least

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Speaker 4: a statutory.

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Speaker 3: Bill of rights. And we've actually seen a couple of

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Speaker 3: statutory bill of rights to merge in.

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Speaker 4: The states in Australia, and the Conservatives always rail against

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Speaker 4: this because we as Conservatives are supposed to be wedded

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Speaker 4: to the Westminster system, which in which Parliament is sovereign

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Speaker 4: rather than the document itself. Although our you know, our

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Speaker 4: constitutional lawyers would say that our document is also sovereign.

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Speaker 2: If I might just interrupt, what of the judicial aspect

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Speaker 2: to it? I mean, Jim Allen from best of memory

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Speaker 2: is opposed to a bill of rights or bills of

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Speaker 2: rights because it places it places the power in the

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Speaker 2: hands of unelected judges.

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Speaker 3: Well, it does. So.

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Speaker 4: It's true that the American system, what it seeks to

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Speaker 4: do is take the power from the parliaments and even

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Speaker 4: the government from the executive, and the Congress puts it

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Speaker 4: in the power. They would say the people, and that

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Speaker 4: the Bill of Rights and the subsequent many of the

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Speaker 4: subsequent amendments effectively require the court to adjudicate on what

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Speaker 4: are inherently political questions. But look, that happens in constitutional

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Speaker 4: courts in Westminster systems too. They're just less politically loaded

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Speaker 4: because the whole system, I think is less politically loaded.

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Speaker 4: But my point, I mean, I'm Jim Allen is a

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Speaker 4: great friend of mine and I speak to him regularly,

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Speaker 4: but we tend to disagree on sort of some of

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Speaker 4: some of these parts.

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Speaker 3: Of our you know, nothing wrong with that our political views.

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Speaker 4: So and what I'm saying, I'm not really saying that

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Speaker 4: the American system is better.

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Speaker 3: And ours is worse.

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Speaker 4: They're just pros and cons to both systems. My belief

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Speaker 4: is that American document at least has the virtue of

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Speaker 4: infusing people really with a sense of what democracy is,

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Speaker 4: what liberty. I mean, you can pick it up from

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Speaker 4: the First Amendment, which entrenship in their document a positive

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Speaker 4: right to people of freedom of speech, press, assembly, religion,

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Speaker 4: which are sort of still the lifeblood of political debates

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Speaker 4: now in.

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Speaker 3: The Australian Constitution.

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Speaker 4: Getting back to that which is often described by scholars

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Speaker 4: and other people as a hybrid between Westminster.

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Speaker 3: And the American Constitution.

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Speaker 4: In fact, we sometimes call it Washminster, which I quite like,

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Speaker 4: and it really is a hybrid.

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Speaker 5: You can find, mind.

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Speaker 4: What we call express limitations around religion and property rights

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Speaker 4: in our Constitution, and our High Court has in fact

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Speaker 4: implied certain a couple of rights which is effectively a

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Speaker 4: freedom of political speech.

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Speaker 3: That that's the big one that it has done.

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Speaker 4: And so in our system, unlike the New Zealand system,

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Speaker 4: where there's just a sort of a bunch of documents

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Speaker 4: and conventions which are said to constitute your constitution, we

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Speaker 4: do have a written document that is quite clear and

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Speaker 4: which in many respects. While it doesn't have a Bill

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Speaker 4: of rights, and it does defer primarily to a Westminster

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Speaker 4: system relying on convention, it still does set out some

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Speaker 4: very sort of strong guardrails for democracy. And one of

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Speaker 4: the biggest guardrails actually is that we have in Australia

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Speaker 4: a very strict separation of powers. And the Constitution doesn't

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Speaker 4: itself say there shall be a creation of powers, but

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Speaker 4: like the American Constitution, it is divided into three chapters,

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Speaker 4: the Legislature, the executive, and the judiciary being those big

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Speaker 4: power separations, and it follows the American Constitution in that way.

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Speaker 4: So there's a lot more of America. There's a lot

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Speaker 4: more of the US in the Australian constitution than people recognize,

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Speaker 4: and there are quite a few more sort of ballwalks

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Speaker 4: and protections to Australians than there are in the UK

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Speaker 4: and in New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: So what effect does that have on the legal system,

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Speaker 2: and I'm talking about practicing lawyers specifically, there appears to

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Speaker 2: me to be a trend for the loyally world to

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Speaker 2: swing left.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's a good question.

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Speaker 4: I mean, there's no doubt that that has occurred in Australia.

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Speaker 4: I don't know what the sort of research would show

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Speaker 4: in the US, but it does seem to me that

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Speaker 4: looking at the US from a distance and sort of

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Speaker 4: listening to constitutional law podcasts.

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Speaker 3: And reading cases and following.

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Speaker 4: Constitutional law cases there, that there tends to be the

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Speaker 4: legal profession there is probably not as left wing, or

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Speaker 4: there's certainly there's just sufficient depth and quantity of practicing

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Speaker 4: lawyers who are prepared to push back. I do think

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Speaker 4: certainly in the Australian system there has been certainly in

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Speaker 4: the practice the time that I've been practicing law, the

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Speaker 4: last thirty years, there has been a strong swing of

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Speaker 4: legal practitioners, particularly the Again I use this word, but

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Speaker 4: I think it's appropriate. The elite legal practitioners. They have

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Speaker 4: swung left. And I can't cite the research that says that,

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Speaker 4: but I off the top of my head, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 4: but I did read something in the con when we

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Speaker 4: were having our recent Voice to Parliament debate over here

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Speaker 4: that did cite research that found that of all the

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Speaker 4: professions in Australia, it was Australian specific research, the legal

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Speaker 4: profession was by far the most progressive. It found that

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Speaker 4: seventy percent of the profession voted progressive, whereas the other

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Speaker 4: professions sort of doctors, consultants, and I think they even

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Speaker 4: included real estate agents, And there was a big sway

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Speaker 4: of the professions that they looked at they were sort

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Speaker 4: of at most fifty percent, and then a lot of

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Speaker 4: the professions, of course were sort of swinging more right.

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Speaker 4: So the legal profession, certainly in Australia has has swung left,

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Speaker 4: and I think that has really consolidated in the last

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Speaker 4: just from my own anecdotal experience in the last ten

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Speaker 4: to fifteen years. Well, it's not I'm not sure that

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Speaker 4: that's happened in the US.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's let's just let's just talk about this place

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Speaker 2: for a moment. Here. It's it's happened in New Zealand

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Speaker 2: as well as has other matters that affect will affect life,

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Speaker 2: such as judicial activism. Yeah, there are, well I talked

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Speaker 2: to I talk to lawyers and they when they tell

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Speaker 2: me it's it's certainly there and you can even read

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Speaker 2: about it. But there is there is one thing that

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Speaker 2: you mentioned. You mentioned progressive. The term progressive. Now I

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Speaker 2: don't I'm not used to people anywhere outside of the

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Speaker 2: States using that term in the manner that you did,

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Speaker 2: and I agree with you. The question is why No,

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Speaker 2: A better question for you is what is a progressive

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Speaker 2: as far as you're concerned.

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Speaker 4: Well, I use the word because personally it suits me,

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Speaker 4: because it explains what I have seen amongst many of

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Speaker 4: my peers and colleagues as a practicing lawyer for the

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Speaker 4: last thirty years. Progressive is someone And I must say

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Speaker 4: I have many progressive friends because I've had a career

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Speaker 4: in the law and more and more my friends have

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Speaker 4: become progressive. Now, there are conservatives in the law and

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Speaker 4: strong conservatives.

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Speaker 3: Don't get me wrong, but I.

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Speaker 4: Have managed to maintain some friendships with my progressive friends and.

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Speaker 3: Who have become more and more progressive. To me, it

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Speaker 3: just it.

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Speaker 4: Describes someone who is I see them all as being

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Speaker 4: a little bit malleable and credulous. Actually, I regard a

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Speaker 4: lot of my progressive friends as and also fashionable, I

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Speaker 4: must say, as being inclined to jump on the latest

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Speaker 4: leftist bandwagon. And that could be in any number of

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Speaker 4: sort of areas, whether it's sort of the climate debates,

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Speaker 4: the Hinda debates, the trans debates.

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Speaker 3: A lot of it's cultural, some of it's economic.

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Speaker 4: But because we're so polarized now, I find that the progressive,

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Speaker 4: my progressive friends will read only progressive or left leaning media,

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Speaker 4: and so they tend to just jump on it like

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Speaker 4: so many do now on media and.

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Speaker 3: Sort of in.

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Speaker 4: The case of academics and lawyers, you know, even papers

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Speaker 4: that sort of suit them, rather than keeping their mind

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Speaker 4: open to the other side. And there's this tendency for

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Speaker 4: progressives to think that any change that is proposed by experts,

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Speaker 4: or that he's and that he's supported by progressive media,

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Speaker 4: must be right, and so they grab onto change and

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Speaker 4: they think that change and all change is sort of

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Speaker 4: is good for its own sake, that we must. They

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Speaker 4: tend to be an emotional attachment to the idea that

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Speaker 4: nearly all change is good and the system needs.

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Speaker 3: A shake up. Now.

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Speaker 4: That is quite different to the mentality that used to

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Speaker 4: prevail in the law at the top levels. So I

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Speaker 4: often cite when I have this sort of discussion that

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Speaker 4: I'm having with you now, amongst with my progressive friends

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Speaker 4: and conservative friends. You know, twenty years ago, thirty years

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Speaker 4: ago at the New South Wales bar there were conservatives,

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Speaker 4: no one, conservatives and progressives and the power was shared

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Speaker 4: between them, and various progressives and conservatives would be appointed

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Speaker 4: by left and right governments and what have you. But

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Speaker 4: the progressives then, or the labor appointees, if I can

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Speaker 4: just say it straight, and I'm thinking of you, wouldn't

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Speaker 4: necessarily your listeners wouldn't necessarily know these people. But a

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Speaker 4: former Chief Justice of New South Wales, Jim Spiegelman, or

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Speaker 4: a Michael mckure, a labor appointee.

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Speaker 3: To the High Court. Who I mean?

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Speaker 4: These are both magisterial lawyers who were progressives of that era, There's.

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Speaker 3: No doubt about that.

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Speaker 4: But as lawyers they were great Black letter lawyers, and

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Speaker 4: they never abandoned that, and I don't see that that

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Speaker 4: same thing happening in the law now. I think the

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Speaker 4: progressives in the law in Australia now have not exclusively

401
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Speaker 4: and again i'm generalizing here. There are some progressives who

402
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Speaker 4: are still sort of on track and accept that sort

403
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Speaker 4: of our institutions should be preserved and don't necessarily buy

404
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Speaker 4: into the latest progressive ideal, But more and more the

405
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Speaker 4: progressives are inclined to sort of deal with the sort

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Speaker 4: of abstraction that progressives I think.

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Speaker 3: Now a notorious form.

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Speaker 4: So the classic example is that many of our progressive

409
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Speaker 4: lawyers jumped on our Voice to Parliament bandwagon, which was

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Speaker 4: by any definition an assault on the basic principle of

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Speaker 4: equality of citizenship. And they said, well, that's okay because

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Speaker 4: this is a special case.

413
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Speaker 3: But it was so fundamental what they were trying to do.

414
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Speaker 4: It required serious consideration and serious debate. Yet so many

415
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Speaker 4: of these progressive, very accomplished lawyers simply said that doesn't matter,

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Speaker 4: we don't need a debate. In fact, we'd rather shut

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Speaker 4: it down. And this idea of equality of citizenship, really

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Speaker 4: it doesn't apply in this case. And that is a

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Speaker 4: classic example and by far the most prominent example of

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Speaker 4: what tends to be going on.

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Speaker 3: In the law.

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Speaker 4: And I think that's a bit scary, frankly, that the

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Speaker 4: legal profession is veering sharply left. Very scary because the laws,

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Speaker 4: the law should always follow society, you know, and generally

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Speaker 4: defer to parliaments who have judges should generally speaking, defer

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Speaker 4: to parliaments where they can, because the legislature has more

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Speaker 4: directed accountability to the population.

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Speaker 2: Most people would understand what I was driving at when

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Speaker 2: I asked you about your thoughts on the term progressive,

430
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Speaker 2: for the simple reason that I'd be quick about it,

431
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Speaker 2: because everybody knows this that when you Cinda ra durn

432
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Speaker 2: was was appointed as the as the leader of the

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Speaker 2: Labor Party, she did an interview with the breakfast host

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Speaker 2: on the station that I was then on, and she

435
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Speaker 2: was asked, what are your politics? You know, how do

436
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Speaker 2: you She said, quite proudly, I'm a progressive and nobody

437
00:29:02,533 --> 00:29:05,933
Speaker 2: here knew what that was. Seriously, nobody knew what it was.

438
00:29:06,653 --> 00:29:08,853
Speaker 2: And I tried to tell people that they were in

439
00:29:09,213 --> 00:29:12,613
Speaker 2: huge trouble. I knew from that moment on that this

440
00:29:12,653 --> 00:29:16,373
Speaker 2: country was in strife, and I don't think I need

441
00:29:16,373 --> 00:29:20,333
Speaker 2: to say any more to prove it. Yes, so it's

442
00:29:20,373 --> 00:29:23,173
Speaker 2: a It's a term that has a long history, of course,

443
00:29:23,453 --> 00:29:26,893
Speaker 2: particularly in the United States, going back over one hundred years,

444
00:29:27,453 --> 00:29:28,933
Speaker 2: but in other parts well.

445
00:29:29,133 --> 00:29:32,013
Speaker 4: In the United States, of course, progressives are also known

446
00:29:32,053 --> 00:29:37,253
Speaker 4: as liberals, which is confusing for some Australians because in

447
00:29:37,293 --> 00:29:39,813
Speaker 4: fact our Conservative Party is a liberal party here.

448
00:29:40,613 --> 00:29:44,053
Speaker 2: So listen, let's get back onto this, onto the article

449
00:29:44,133 --> 00:29:49,333
Speaker 2: sliding into technocracy, and just briefly cover these these three things.

450
00:29:49,333 --> 00:29:51,933
Speaker 2: You say, Australia is increasingly a place where governments and

451
00:29:51,973 --> 00:29:57,693
Speaker 2: technocrats muffle debates before they even begin. Consider three examples

452
00:29:57,693 --> 00:30:01,013
Speaker 2: from an increasingly large pool. Then you then talk about

453
00:30:01,053 --> 00:30:03,613
Speaker 2: South Australia, the Voice that you had a lot to

454
00:30:03,653 --> 00:30:06,413
Speaker 2: do with you you went to war on that, and

455
00:30:06,453 --> 00:30:10,533
Speaker 2: then on renewable energy. Now each one of those has

456
00:30:10,573 --> 00:30:16,813
Speaker 2: implications for other English speaking and the Westminster based countries.

457
00:30:17,373 --> 00:30:17,853
Speaker 2: Am I right?

458
00:30:17,973 --> 00:30:20,853
Speaker 4: Yes, Well, I mean I could go through them all,

459
00:30:20,933 --> 00:30:24,773
Speaker 4: but I've spoken about the voice. There are very concerning

460
00:30:24,893 --> 00:30:28,933
Speaker 4: signs in all manner of public policy where things are

461
00:30:29,693 --> 00:30:32,453
Speaker 4: either just happen without any debate or shifted off to

462
00:30:32,933 --> 00:30:35,693
Speaker 4: so called experts. Now I have to again say I'm

463
00:30:35,693 --> 00:30:39,813
Speaker 4: not anti expert. Experts are necessary, but where I do

464
00:30:39,893 --> 00:30:44,733
Speaker 4: have a problem with experts is when they are regarded

465
00:30:44,813 --> 00:30:48,373
Speaker 4: as I guess sovereign, where they make the decisions about

466
00:30:49,173 --> 00:30:53,213
Speaker 4: things that are inherently political, and I think we've seen

467
00:30:53,213 --> 00:30:58,493
Speaker 4: that happening throughout the West, particularly.

468
00:30:57,933 --> 00:30:59,813
Speaker 3: In the climate and energy debates.

469
00:30:59,853 --> 00:31:04,533
Speaker 4: And again I don't think most experts are malignant, that

470
00:31:04,813 --> 00:31:08,493
Speaker 4: I think they have good intentions. It's just that often

471
00:31:08,933 --> 00:31:13,853
Speaker 4: experts come to solving a problem with certain values attached

472
00:31:13,893 --> 00:31:16,733
Speaker 4: to what they regard as facts. And so that is

473
00:31:16,973 --> 00:31:20,973
Speaker 4: problem at the moment with so called expertise because many

474
00:31:20,973 --> 00:31:23,453
Speaker 4: of our experts a sort of tend to be more

475
00:31:23,533 --> 00:31:27,373
Speaker 4: left leaning, less conservative, and they sort of approve of

476
00:31:27,733 --> 00:31:30,973
Speaker 4: change and be changed quickly. And the other thing that

477
00:31:31,893 --> 00:31:34,573
Speaker 4: I think is a difficulty with experts, and particularly in

478
00:31:34,613 --> 00:31:38,453
Speaker 4: the experts that governments rely on in our climate and

479
00:31:38,573 --> 00:31:43,973
Speaker 4: energy debate, is that they don't They know about a

480
00:31:44,013 --> 00:31:47,453
Speaker 4: lot about what they know, but their expertise is narrow

481
00:31:47,973 --> 00:31:50,173
Speaker 4: and they don't know what they don't know. So in

482
00:31:50,173 --> 00:31:52,933
Speaker 4: Australia at the moment, this is not having a New

483
00:31:53,053 --> 00:31:58,213
Speaker 4: Zealand or Canada where there's sort of significant hydro power

484
00:31:58,333 --> 00:32:02,653
Speaker 4: and other ways to reach net zero. But we're rolling

485
00:32:02,693 --> 00:32:06,613
Speaker 4: out what we're supposed to be rolling out an eighty

486
00:32:06,693 --> 00:32:10,533
Speaker 4: two percent large scale renew ambition for our energy grid.

487
00:32:11,293 --> 00:32:14,533
Speaker 4: And whilst this was all decided it could be done

488
00:32:14,573 --> 00:32:18,413
Speaker 4: by experts, by various experts, a cacophony of experts all

489
00:32:18,453 --> 00:32:23,133
Speaker 4: singing from the same hymn sheet, it's really hit some

490
00:32:23,213 --> 00:32:26,893
Speaker 4: significant barriers because what they didn't think. They just didn't

491
00:32:26,933 --> 00:32:31,773
Speaker 4: anticipate that there would be serious impacts on the environment,

492
00:32:32,373 --> 00:32:38,253
Speaker 4: serious impacts on agricultural land, like huge waves of agricultural

493
00:32:38,333 --> 00:32:42,333
Speaker 4: land in Australia will be tied up with hosting these

494
00:32:42,413 --> 00:32:46,533
Speaker 4: large pale renewables. And they didn't think about the impact

495
00:32:46,573 --> 00:32:49,053
Speaker 4: on the communities that were going to bear the brunt

496
00:32:49,053 --> 00:32:51,453
Speaker 4: of it. And again this is not just a handful

497
00:32:51,453 --> 00:32:56,933
Speaker 4: of communities, but great sways of rural communities across the

498
00:32:57,093 --> 00:33:02,733
Speaker 4: sort of Eastern Seaboard and beyond the Mountain range in

499
00:33:02,773 --> 00:33:07,253
Speaker 4: the Eastern States are going to be littered with solar

500
00:33:07,293 --> 00:33:08,853
Speaker 4: panels and winter turbines.

501
00:33:09,453 --> 00:33:13,213
Speaker 2: Read I read that you are very close to one.

502
00:33:14,173 --> 00:33:15,293
Speaker 5: Yes, how we have one?

503
00:33:15,533 --> 00:33:17,133
Speaker 2: How big is it? Remind me?

504
00:33:18,933 --> 00:33:19,413
Speaker 3: It is?

505
00:33:20,293 --> 00:33:23,733
Speaker 4: Oh, I've forgotten the Mega four hundred, four hundred megaw

506
00:33:23,933 --> 00:33:28,293
Speaker 4: It's seventeen hundred acres on the edge of a We

507
00:33:28,373 --> 00:33:31,733
Speaker 4: own a farm that is close to a rural regional

508
00:33:31,773 --> 00:33:37,893
Speaker 4: city called Golden between Sydney and Canberra, and it is

509
00:33:37,933 --> 00:33:40,813
Speaker 4: only a few kilometers from the outskirts of this regional city.

510
00:33:41,333 --> 00:33:44,973
Speaker 4: So there are two proposed in close proximity, one on

511
00:33:44,973 --> 00:33:46,533
Speaker 4: one side of a road and one on the other

512
00:33:46,613 --> 00:33:50,053
Speaker 4: and together it's about three thousand acres.

513
00:33:51,773 --> 00:33:54,653
Speaker 3: And so you know, you can imagine.

514
00:33:54,253 --> 00:33:58,173
Speaker 4: The people and the people who live in this part

515
00:33:59,053 --> 00:34:03,373
Speaker 4: of our rural area are not large scale farmers. They're

516
00:34:03,413 --> 00:34:08,293
Speaker 4: often hobby farmers or farmers. Often you know, call them

517
00:34:08,413 --> 00:34:11,533
Speaker 4: BLOCKI is that as people who have these lifestyle blocks

518
00:34:11,733 --> 00:34:14,173
Speaker 4: and so a lot I mean, I think when the

519
00:34:14,213 --> 00:34:18,933
Speaker 4: renewable energy sort of things started, the vision was that

520
00:34:18,973 --> 00:34:22,093
Speaker 4: it would be out on the back of Beyond and

521
00:34:22,133 --> 00:34:26,333
Speaker 4: on big ridge lines and a long way from where

522
00:34:26,333 --> 00:34:30,133
Speaker 4: it would interfere with the with property rights and land

523
00:34:30,253 --> 00:34:34,733
Speaker 4: use that sort of mattered and or amenity. But this

524
00:34:35,213 --> 00:34:37,933
Speaker 4: is being proposed right in the middle of a very

525
00:34:37,973 --> 00:34:40,533
Speaker 4: built up area where people have built homes and rock

526
00:34:40,573 --> 00:34:46,093
Speaker 4: balls and gardens and their whole rural outlook will be

527
00:34:46,173 --> 00:34:50,013
Speaker 4: disturbed by these in this coast solar panels.

528
00:34:50,813 --> 00:34:53,093
Speaker 3: So look, that's what's going on in Australia, and there

529
00:34:53,173 --> 00:34:56,493
Speaker 3: is a huge pushback. Now getting back.

530
00:34:56,413 --> 00:34:59,013
Speaker 4: To the technocrats, all the experts, they just did not

531
00:34:59,293 --> 00:34:59,813
Speaker 4: consider this.

532
00:35:00,653 --> 00:35:04,693
Speaker 2: They set on the sorry so do they care?

533
00:35:05,493 --> 00:35:08,013
Speaker 4: I think a lot of them don't. But the other

534
00:35:08,013 --> 00:35:13,093
Speaker 4: thing they can't consider. Their models were about the economics

535
00:35:13,093 --> 00:35:17,773
Speaker 4: of it, were sort of based on pre pandemic sort

536
00:35:17,773 --> 00:35:21,813
Speaker 4: of finance, I suppose where money was once keep and

537
00:35:21,853 --> 00:35:26,093
Speaker 4: they didn't think about inflation and all the other and

538
00:35:26,413 --> 00:35:30,733
Speaker 4: this sort of overregulation of development. And so what has

539
00:35:30,733 --> 00:35:33,693
Speaker 4: also happened on the economic side, where you would think

540
00:35:33,733 --> 00:35:36,893
Speaker 4: the experts would be at least a little bit more

541
00:35:36,893 --> 00:35:41,613
Speaker 4: adept foreseeing these problems, is that the cost of the

542
00:35:41,733 --> 00:35:46,413
Speaker 4: transmission network, which because renewables are just a bunch of

543
00:35:46,453 --> 00:35:50,693
Speaker 4: effectively power stations all over the shop rather than being

544
00:35:50,733 --> 00:35:55,093
Speaker 4: concentrated in a big a nuclear or a cold fire

545
00:35:55,173 --> 00:35:58,373
Speaker 4: powered station, they have to connect them all up with

546
00:35:58,773 --> 00:36:03,773
Speaker 4: transmission lines. And so this is another new huge problem

547
00:36:03,813 --> 00:36:09,213
Speaker 4: and the cost of the transmission for this renewables orgy,

548
00:36:09,453 --> 00:36:14,573
Speaker 4: if you like, across Australia is just blowing out. And

549
00:36:14,613 --> 00:36:18,013
Speaker 4: again they seem at the moment because there's pushback on

550
00:36:18,053 --> 00:36:23,653
Speaker 4: the economics and on the social license issue right now,

551
00:36:23,853 --> 00:36:28,853
Speaker 4: what the current government is doing is declaring it beyond politics.

552
00:36:29,613 --> 00:36:32,933
Speaker 4: So the current Prime Minister Anthony Albanesi has for instance,

553
00:36:34,653 --> 00:36:37,693
Speaker 4: there's some pushback and so what he is now saying,

554
00:36:37,773 --> 00:36:40,253
Speaker 4: in I think quite a desperate bid to try and

555
00:36:40,293 --> 00:36:42,413
Speaker 4: make it go away, is that Look, the people who

556
00:36:42,453 --> 00:36:46,493
Speaker 4: are against this are just climate deniers, and of.

557
00:36:46,453 --> 00:36:47,413
Speaker 3: Course that's not the case.

558
00:36:48,653 --> 00:36:52,253
Speaker 4: So I think the experts, I mean, they don't set

559
00:36:52,293 --> 00:36:57,613
Speaker 4: out to harm anyone, that's for sure, and they are

560
00:36:57,893 --> 00:36:59,773
Speaker 4: usually very qualified.

561
00:36:59,253 --> 00:37:00,253
Speaker 3: In a narrow field.

562
00:37:00,733 --> 00:37:03,893
Speaker 4: But if you're going to start embarking on sort of

563
00:37:04,533 --> 00:37:10,853
Speaker 4: economy wide you know, convert this move to net zero

564
00:37:12,733 --> 00:37:17,293
Speaker 4: has massive social and economic implications. It sort of requires

565
00:37:17,293 --> 00:37:22,253
Speaker 4: a reordering of our economies, and it would by definition

566
00:37:22,413 --> 00:37:25,493
Speaker 4: be so hard. I just the reliance on a very

567
00:37:25,733 --> 00:37:33,933
Speaker 4: narrow cohort of experts to get to that place is

568
00:37:34,373 --> 00:37:38,333
Speaker 4: proving to be problematic. And I think perhaps later and

569
00:37:38,373 --> 00:37:42,973
Speaker 4: the reason you were attracted to my peace and the

570
00:37:43,013 --> 00:37:45,613
Speaker 4: reason I've actually I've had quite a few, quite a

571
00:37:45,613 --> 00:37:48,693
Speaker 4: lot of positive feedback from the piece in the Spectator

572
00:37:48,733 --> 00:37:51,893
Speaker 4: magazine is that government is just getting.

573
00:37:51,573 --> 00:37:54,093
Speaker 3: Bigger, and the administrative.

574
00:37:53,413 --> 00:37:57,013
Speaker 4: State or the welfare state is now promising to do

575
00:37:57,053 --> 00:37:59,573
Speaker 4: more and more for citizens. And it seems that citizens,

576
00:37:59,613 --> 00:38:01,173
Speaker 4: I mean, this is a big problem for all of

577
00:38:01,173 --> 00:38:03,133
Speaker 4: the West, want that.

578
00:38:03,173 --> 00:38:04,093
Speaker 3: And demand more.

579
00:38:04,853 --> 00:38:07,093
Speaker 4: And there are plenty of politicians around who will just

580
00:38:07,213 --> 00:38:10,333
Speaker 4: keep saying, yes, we can give more. But because there's

581
00:38:10,373 --> 00:38:13,573
Speaker 4: now so much government, and government so big, and government

582
00:38:13,613 --> 00:38:18,133
Speaker 4: pretends that it can solve all of our problems, that

583
00:38:18,173 --> 00:38:22,213
Speaker 4: does mean there's just more and more sort of expertise

584
00:38:23,573 --> 00:38:27,333
Speaker 4: technocrats being relied on, and of course they're just not

585
00:38:27,373 --> 00:38:28,413
Speaker 4: going to get it right.

586
00:38:30,173 --> 00:38:32,733
Speaker 2: Look, there's a book. There's a book called Unmasking the

587
00:38:32,733 --> 00:38:38,253
Speaker 2: Administrative State by John Mariney, and that was an introduction

588
00:38:38,373 --> 00:38:43,653
Speaker 2: to me for for precisely that, uh, and in my library.

589
00:38:43,693 --> 00:38:46,693
Speaker 2: It's followed up with a book by professor Thomas Harrington

590
00:38:47,173 --> 00:38:51,333
Speaker 2: from the University of Austin, The Treason of the Experts.

591
00:38:51,333 --> 00:38:52,813
Speaker 2: Don't know whether you're familiar with it or not.

592
00:38:53,333 --> 00:38:57,013
Speaker 4: No, I don't know those I don't know those particular books.

593
00:38:57,093 --> 00:39:01,053
Speaker 2: Thomas Harrington's The Treason of the Experts fits very nicely

594
00:39:01,133 --> 00:39:04,533
Speaker 2: into into your your outbook, and the fact that there is.

595
00:39:04,533 --> 00:39:07,733
Speaker 4: I think, I mean there's there is a I'm a

596
00:39:07,773 --> 00:39:13,853
Speaker 4: great follow of Francis Fukiyama, who is a renowned political scientist,

597
00:39:14,253 --> 00:39:18,293
Speaker 4: as you would know from America, and he famously wrote

598
00:39:18,293 --> 00:39:21,133
Speaker 4: a book in nineteen ninety two called The Rest is

599
00:39:22,253 --> 00:39:26,053
Speaker 4: the End of History where he proposed that the liberal

600
00:39:26,053 --> 00:39:30,053
Speaker 4: democratic world order was the sort of end of political

601
00:39:30,453 --> 00:39:35,213
Speaker 4: ideology and that every most nation states would move to

602
00:39:35,333 --> 00:39:39,213
Speaker 4: that in the coming years. And of course it's sort

603
00:39:39,213 --> 00:39:41,373
Speaker 4: of proved to be wrong, although he did qualify it.

604
00:39:41,413 --> 00:39:43,933
Speaker 3: And Francis Fukiyama is sort.

605
00:39:43,813 --> 00:39:46,333
Speaker 4: Of regarded I suppose he was regarded as right wing

606
00:39:46,373 --> 00:39:50,013
Speaker 4: when he started out. Now he's sort of now regarded

607
00:39:50,013 --> 00:39:51,853
Speaker 4: as more progressive. But I consider him a bit of

608
00:39:51,853 --> 00:39:55,173
Speaker 4: a centrist, and he's a very thoughtful man, and he's

609
00:39:55,173 --> 00:39:59,493
Speaker 4: still prodigious and worth listening to. He places a lot

610
00:39:59,533 --> 00:40:02,853
Speaker 4: of faith in the administrative state, in a well run

611
00:40:02,893 --> 00:40:09,853
Speaker 4: administrative state. Now I'm more skeptical than him, but I

612
00:40:09,973 --> 00:40:14,933
Speaker 4: do accept that we can't sort of overhaul the way

613
00:40:15,013 --> 00:40:17,693
Speaker 4: we do government sort of in some sort of crazy

614
00:40:17,973 --> 00:40:21,893
Speaker 4: revolution where we remove all technocrats and experts in running

615
00:40:21,893 --> 00:40:26,653
Speaker 4: the state. It's just that more and more they seem

616
00:40:26,693 --> 00:40:28,733
Speaker 4: to be getting it wrong. And as I said, my

617
00:40:28,853 --> 00:40:37,613
Speaker 4: central thesis is that Westminster democracies are more prone to this. Now,

618
00:40:38,053 --> 00:40:41,253
Speaker 4: I think most New Zealanders and Australians would look at

619
00:40:41,253 --> 00:40:47,693
Speaker 4: America right now and look at the extreme polarization and say, all,

620
00:40:48,053 --> 00:40:51,853
Speaker 4: I prefer to live here where I live because that

621
00:40:52,333 --> 00:40:55,213
Speaker 4: looks ugly, and I mean in the wake of the

622
00:40:55,333 --> 00:40:59,253
Speaker 4: terrible assassination of Charlie Kirk, people would think that even

623
00:40:59,293 --> 00:41:03,973
Speaker 4: more so. My point is not so much that America

624
00:41:04,013 --> 00:41:08,293
Speaker 4: doesn't have problems, because it clearly does, and things are

625
00:41:09,213 --> 00:41:13,973
Speaker 4: seem to be escalating at the current time. But my

626
00:41:14,053 --> 00:41:17,773
Speaker 4: point is that people think in this sort of and

627
00:41:17,853 --> 00:41:19,693
Speaker 4: the way the left does, in their super serious way,

628
00:41:19,733 --> 00:41:23,733
Speaker 4: that look, we've got it all sorted. Because with technocracy

629
00:41:24,133 --> 00:41:27,013
Speaker 4: there is a great hollowing out and a great and

630
00:41:27,293 --> 00:41:32,453
Speaker 4: it creates distrust in institutions and gives rise to what

631
00:41:32,493 --> 00:41:37,453
Speaker 4: the progressives derisingly call populism amongst the masses.

632
00:41:37,653 --> 00:41:38,813
Speaker 3: But there is a reason for that.

633
00:41:39,493 --> 00:41:42,933
Speaker 4: They feel completely disconnected to the decisions that are being made,

634
00:41:43,453 --> 00:41:48,133
Speaker 4: and they know instinctively. People know instinctively that the wrong

635
00:41:48,173 --> 00:41:50,813
Speaker 4: decisions are being made, and that their voices are not

636
00:41:50,853 --> 00:41:51,413
Speaker 4: being heard.

637
00:41:52,013 --> 00:41:54,933
Speaker 2: How difficult would it be to you, Okay, how difficult

638
00:41:54,933 --> 00:41:57,613
Speaker 2: do you think it would be for Australia and Australians

639
00:41:58,053 --> 00:42:03,013
Speaker 2: to do a one eighty in enough numbers to alter

640
00:42:03,093 --> 00:42:03,573
Speaker 2: the direction.

641
00:42:06,013 --> 00:42:09,173
Speaker 3: I think this is sort of it's a pandemic.

642
00:42:09,413 --> 00:42:10,613
Speaker 2: It's an obscure question.

643
00:42:10,693 --> 00:42:13,853
Speaker 3: I've just asked, no, well, I mean to alter the

644
00:42:13,893 --> 00:42:15,453
Speaker 3: direction again.

645
00:42:15,533 --> 00:42:21,213
Speaker 4: I think we are at the moment still, it seems,

646
00:42:22,213 --> 00:42:26,413
Speaker 4: broadly speaking in Westminster democracy, and this is a problem

647
00:42:26,453 --> 00:42:31,853
Speaker 4: in America too. We still seem to be adding to

648
00:42:32,133 --> 00:42:37,133
Speaker 4: the national debt and promising that governments can continue to

649
00:42:37,493 --> 00:42:40,373
Speaker 4: solve all the problems of the citizenry.

650
00:42:40,973 --> 00:42:42,733
Speaker 3: We still seem to be doing that.

651
00:42:43,373 --> 00:42:49,653
Speaker 4: And frankly, even the even President Trump has in the

652
00:42:49,693 --> 00:42:53,893
Speaker 4: Big Beautiful Bill, hasn't sort of looked like he's going

653
00:42:53,973 --> 00:42:57,453
Speaker 4: to make many changes to changing much difference to changing

654
00:42:57,453 --> 00:43:01,653
Speaker 4: the size of the state. I mean, there's a lot

655
00:43:01,733 --> 00:43:03,613
Speaker 4: sorts of things going on there, but it's a question

656
00:43:03,693 --> 00:43:07,613
Speaker 4: of distribution and where things end up there's causing some

657
00:43:07,653 --> 00:43:08,293
Speaker 4: of the problems.

658
00:43:08,973 --> 00:43:12,413
Speaker 3: I can't see a.

659
00:43:11,453 --> 00:43:17,733
Speaker 4: Huge appetite at the moment in any liberal democracies for

660
00:43:17,813 --> 00:43:21,973
Speaker 4: the state to get smaller, and that is a big

661
00:43:21,973 --> 00:43:23,253
Speaker 4: problem I think.

662
00:43:24,053 --> 00:43:27,573
Speaker 3: So to your question about how you could do a.

663
00:43:27,933 --> 00:43:31,693
Speaker 4: Quick reversal, I think it would be difficult, and it

664
00:43:31,813 --> 00:43:35,533
Speaker 4: seems to me that we might need some pretty serious crises,

665
00:43:36,373 --> 00:43:39,773
Speaker 4: and I mean serious political crisis where you could sort

666
00:43:39,813 --> 00:43:43,093
Speaker 4: of and particularly economic crises I suppose where you could

667
00:43:43,453 --> 00:43:48,853
Speaker 4: start to mount a good argument to withdraw some of

668
00:43:48,893 --> 00:43:51,693
Speaker 4: the state support that is happening. I mean, I think

669
00:43:52,173 --> 00:43:56,373
Speaker 4: there's a lot of appetite for more efficient government, but

670
00:43:56,693 --> 00:44:00,413
Speaker 4: that requires experts. I think we do need to get

671
00:44:00,453 --> 00:44:06,133
Speaker 4: better at directing experts and understand their limitations.

672
00:44:07,253 --> 00:44:09,893
Speaker 2: I want to disagree with you there about the experts.

673
00:44:11,253 --> 00:44:15,413
Speaker 2: I don't think it takes experts. I think it takes

674
00:44:17,053 --> 00:44:22,733
Speaker 2: a breed of politicians who understand the real problems and

675
00:44:22,813 --> 00:44:27,493
Speaker 2: have the wherewithal to put it politely, to carry them out,

676
00:44:28,213 --> 00:44:31,933
Speaker 2: to stand up to the to the ludicrousness of the

677
00:44:32,053 --> 00:44:36,013
Speaker 2: Victorian type politicians in Australia and the present Prime minister

678
00:44:36,493 --> 00:44:39,613
Speaker 2: have the have the I mean, if we I think

679
00:44:39,653 --> 00:44:41,933
Speaker 2: we all know, those of us who are interested in

680
00:44:41,973 --> 00:44:45,333
Speaker 2: the Australian election just gone, we all know that they

681
00:44:45,333 --> 00:44:47,453
Speaker 2: should have won, The Liberals should have won, or could

682
00:44:47,493 --> 00:44:51,853
Speaker 2: have won if what I just said had had been adopted.

683
00:44:52,853 --> 00:44:55,733
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, there was a lot going on there. I

684
00:44:55,733 --> 00:44:59,333
Speaker 4: think there's a distinction. There's in my mind, I separate

685
00:44:59,373 --> 00:45:03,733
Speaker 4: the issues into sort of economic issues and cultural issues.

686
00:45:04,653 --> 00:45:08,973
Speaker 4: I do think. I do think we have a problem

687
00:45:09,533 --> 00:45:15,613
Speaker 4: at the moment amongst the population in terms of reliance

688
00:45:15,613 --> 00:45:16,093
Speaker 4: on the state.

689
00:45:16,133 --> 00:45:18,733
Speaker 3: We've got huge problems.

690
00:45:19,053 --> 00:45:23,053
Speaker 4: And with our NDIS, for example, it has just completely

691
00:45:23,093 --> 00:45:25,653
Speaker 4: blown out in ways that weren't anticipated and which you

692
00:45:25,653 --> 00:45:31,653
Speaker 4: would think the experts might have foreseends, meaning the National

693
00:45:31,773 --> 00:45:36,733
Speaker 4: Disability Insurance Scheme, So we now have one in either

694
00:45:36,773 --> 00:45:42,373
Speaker 4: six or seven boys aged five to maybe twelve it is,

695
00:45:42,933 --> 00:45:47,333
Speaker 4: who are receiving government help for disability, and it's basically

696
00:45:47,453 --> 00:45:54,653
Speaker 4: all autism or ADHD, and so it has basically there's

697
00:45:54,693 --> 00:45:59,053
Speaker 4: a massive incentive for young children to be diagnosed to

698
00:45:59,093 --> 00:46:02,013
Speaker 4: be on the spectrum or something and then get government help.

699
00:46:02,493 --> 00:46:07,533
Speaker 4: And it is killing not only the economy but also

700
00:46:07,653 --> 00:46:11,133
Speaker 4: our society because there is a mentality that if there's

701
00:46:11,173 --> 00:46:15,533
Speaker 4: any problem with a child or some minor sort of

702
00:46:15,933 --> 00:46:19,173
Speaker 4: developmental disorder, then they quickly need to go off to

703
00:46:19,213 --> 00:46:23,213
Speaker 4: the government to solve this problem. And there's just huge

704
00:46:23,213 --> 00:46:27,333
Speaker 4: amounts of money being spent on solving problems that were

705
00:46:27,333 --> 00:46:28,653
Speaker 4: never really intended to.

706
00:46:28,573 --> 00:46:30,773
Speaker 3: Be solved by that scheme. And yet.

707
00:46:32,133 --> 00:46:34,773
Speaker 4: In the context of an election campaign, I just think

708
00:46:35,493 --> 00:46:38,133
Speaker 4: the Liberals felt that if they said they were going

709
00:46:38,133 --> 00:46:41,853
Speaker 4: to somehow scale this back, which incidentally the Labor Party

710
00:46:41,893 --> 00:46:44,173
Speaker 4: has started to try to do.

711
00:46:46,253 --> 00:46:47,773
Speaker 3: In its new term of government.

712
00:46:48,293 --> 00:46:51,933
Speaker 4: Because everyone who's sensible recognizes that the thing has become

713
00:46:51,933 --> 00:46:53,813
Speaker 4: a beast and is out of control and is being

714
00:46:53,933 --> 00:46:59,253
Speaker 4: routed and overused. The Liberals felt they, I assume, could

715
00:46:59,293 --> 00:47:04,573
Speaker 4: not go to an election promising to take money away

716
00:47:05,373 --> 00:47:10,493
Speaker 4: from families and children who really shouldn't be receiving taxpayer

717
00:47:10,773 --> 00:47:14,653
Speaker 4: money to solve what were a fairly minor issues.

718
00:47:15,293 --> 00:47:17,493
Speaker 3: There's also an over diagnosis problem.

719
00:47:17,533 --> 00:47:19,253
Speaker 4: Of course, is an incentive if you're going to get

720
00:47:19,293 --> 00:47:21,293
Speaker 4: something from the government to be diagnosed.

721
00:47:22,573 --> 00:47:23,893
Speaker 3: So these are complex problems.

722
00:47:23,973 --> 00:47:29,733
Speaker 4: So I really and the Liberals here, that is our conservatives,

723
00:47:30,373 --> 00:47:33,413
Speaker 4: I think, felt they could not win an election in

724
00:47:33,453 --> 00:47:35,693
Speaker 4: the face of a Labor Party that was prepared to

725
00:47:35,853 --> 00:47:40,493
Speaker 4: just keep spending on these massive social programs. They couldn't

726
00:47:40,573 --> 00:47:44,093
Speaker 4: win an election if they went to the election promising

727
00:47:44,093 --> 00:47:47,413
Speaker 4: to take some of that away. And I have to say,

728
00:47:47,813 --> 00:47:51,373
Speaker 4: just to push back a bit. You know, Donald Trump

729
00:47:51,893 --> 00:47:57,533
Speaker 4: did not promise to sort of attack or take away

730
00:47:57,533 --> 00:48:01,253
Speaker 4: any of the social programs in the US. What he

731
00:48:01,293 --> 00:48:03,533
Speaker 4: did promise to do, and which he did do with

732
00:48:03,653 --> 00:48:07,293
Speaker 4: the help of Elon Musk for a while, was to

733
00:48:07,493 --> 00:48:11,493
Speaker 4: go after waste for government spending. But that is not

734
00:48:11,533 --> 00:48:14,573
Speaker 4: where the big spending is. The big spending in society

735
00:48:14,973 --> 00:48:21,333
Speaker 4: is on medicare here in the US, disability pensions, those

736
00:48:21,613 --> 00:48:24,653
Speaker 4: big social programs and defense, I should say, is obviously

737
00:48:24,693 --> 00:48:27,973
Speaker 4: becoming has always been big, but about to get bigger

738
00:48:27,973 --> 00:48:31,533
Speaker 4: for everyone. And I do think the essential problem here

739
00:48:31,853 --> 00:48:37,413
Speaker 4: is how conservatives, who are obviously far more interested in

740
00:48:37,813 --> 00:48:42,813
Speaker 4: fiscal restraint and imposing guidelines, it's difficult for them to

741
00:48:42,933 --> 00:48:47,533
Speaker 4: win elections going to the people saying we're going to

742
00:48:47,573 --> 00:48:51,813
Speaker 4: take away something that you have. The progressives, who are

743
00:48:52,453 --> 00:48:56,653
Speaker 4: more prepared to spend generally certainly in the Westminster economies,

744
00:48:57,693 --> 00:49:01,733
Speaker 4: simply they run it, they weaponize it in order to

745
00:49:01,813 --> 00:49:02,853
Speaker 4: win the election.

746
00:49:03,693 --> 00:49:06,053
Speaker 3: And I think it's this is an ongoing problem.

747
00:49:06,173 --> 00:49:08,613
Speaker 2: Well, we've seen the same thing here. I'll give you

748
00:49:08,653 --> 00:49:11,773
Speaker 2: an example. In the two thousand and five election, Helen

749
00:49:11,813 --> 00:49:15,173
Speaker 2: Clark was losing she at the last minute pulled the

750
00:49:15,213 --> 00:49:17,693
Speaker 2: rabbit out of the hat. Couple of them actually and

751
00:49:18,573 --> 00:49:22,733
Speaker 2: introduced interest free student loans, and the other one was

752
00:49:22,773 --> 00:49:26,453
Speaker 2: called working for Families, and there was a tax arrangement

753
00:49:26,533 --> 00:49:30,653
Speaker 2: and anyone who earned under a certain amount, which was

754
00:49:30,813 --> 00:49:34,253
Speaker 2: way higher than it ever should have been because it

755
00:49:34,413 --> 00:49:38,213
Speaker 2: just was. It was drafted to include so many people

756
00:49:39,093 --> 00:49:42,053
Speaker 2: and they were getting tax breaks, and she romped in.

757
00:49:42,893 --> 00:49:45,453
Speaker 2: But then in two thousand and eight, when John Key

758
00:49:45,453 --> 00:49:49,013
Speaker 2: won for the National Party, he refused to touch it

759
00:49:50,373 --> 00:49:54,533
Speaker 2: where the opportunity was there, but he refused to touch

760
00:49:54,573 --> 00:49:58,813
Speaker 2: it because he didn't want to disturb the disturb the scenario.

761
00:49:59,573 --> 00:50:02,213
Speaker 4: And later, and I think it's getting harder and harder

762
00:50:02,253 --> 00:50:06,533
Speaker 4: now exactly to do this, because I mean that was

763
00:50:06,533 --> 00:50:08,933
Speaker 4: two thousand and eight. I mean, how is policy exchanged

764
00:50:08,973 --> 00:50:11,653
Speaker 4: since then, But particularly with the advent of social media

765
00:50:12,253 --> 00:50:20,373
Speaker 4: and modern campaigning allows parties to target very closely individuals

766
00:50:20,613 --> 00:50:26,493
Speaker 4: and cohorts in society and to misinform them. I mean,

767
00:50:26,493 --> 00:50:31,293
Speaker 4: we had the mother of all misinformation sort of campaigns

768
00:50:31,293 --> 00:50:35,813
Speaker 4: from the Labor Party in our most recent election. And

769
00:50:36,373 --> 00:50:40,573
Speaker 4: what they did was they pulled together Peter Dutton from

770
00:50:40,613 --> 00:50:45,693
Speaker 4: the Conservatives, the Liberal Party was running a pro nuclear

771
00:50:45,893 --> 00:50:49,773
Speaker 4: policy to sort of slow down this crazy sort of

772
00:50:49,853 --> 00:50:55,493
Speaker 4: eighty two percent renewable energy proposal. And it had been

773
00:50:55,533 --> 00:51:01,573
Speaker 4: costed by the Liberals by a very very qualified expert

774
00:51:02,613 --> 00:51:05,333
Speaker 4: as coming in much lower than the alternative that the

775
00:51:05,373 --> 00:51:08,733
Speaker 4: Labor Party was presenting. Now, the Labor Party simply ignored

776
00:51:08,773 --> 00:51:13,013
Speaker 4: that they came up with a costing that they said

777
00:51:13,013 --> 00:51:17,573
Speaker 4: it was going to cost six hundred billion or something crazy.

778
00:51:18,013 --> 00:51:20,733
Speaker 4: They ran that as a scare campaign and said the

779
00:51:20,773 --> 00:51:23,173
Speaker 4: cost of that will be taken out of your Medicare.

780
00:51:23,213 --> 00:51:23,893
Speaker 3: Now, there was just.

781
00:51:25,413 --> 00:51:30,013
Speaker 4: No basis for that campaign. It was an outrageous set

782
00:51:30,053 --> 00:51:33,653
Speaker 4: of lies sort of pulled together to attack both the

783
00:51:33,773 --> 00:51:39,373
Speaker 4: energy the energy policies and to say completely dishonestly that

784
00:51:39,373 --> 00:51:45,333
Speaker 4: the Liberals were going to attack Medicare rights. And this

785
00:51:45,413 --> 00:51:47,373
Speaker 4: is what the Labor Party has been doing now for

786
00:51:47,733 --> 00:51:50,293
Speaker 4: quite a few elections. They run these scare campaigns on

787
00:51:50,333 --> 00:51:53,293
Speaker 4: Medicare and they work. And it was one of the

788
00:51:53,293 --> 00:51:56,933
Speaker 4: things that worked for them in this campaign. And so

789
00:51:57,093 --> 00:52:00,693
Speaker 4: this scares the bejezus out of conservatives who would want

790
00:52:00,733 --> 00:52:06,533
Speaker 4: to restrain crazy state spending. And I've got to say,

791
00:52:06,613 --> 00:52:09,493
Speaker 4: it doesn't look to me like the US is on

792
00:52:09,533 --> 00:52:13,413
Speaker 4: top of this one either under under Trump, which is

793
00:52:14,053 --> 00:52:16,933
Speaker 4: which is why I mean the tariff. There is there's

794
00:52:16,933 --> 00:52:21,013
Speaker 4: an economic and political basis for the tariffs. And of

795
00:52:21,053 --> 00:52:24,933
Speaker 4: course President Trump has liked tariffs all of his life,

796
00:52:24,973 --> 00:52:27,013
Speaker 4: which is sort of at odds with a lot of

797
00:52:27,093 --> 00:52:33,333
Speaker 4: conservative economic thinking. Of course, but he the view amongst

798
00:52:33,533 --> 00:52:35,493
Speaker 4: most sort of thoughtful people is that.

799
00:52:35,493 --> 00:52:39,573
Speaker 3: The primary reason that is driving the American his.

800
00:52:39,613 --> 00:52:43,173
Speaker 4: Policies on tariff, it's just for revenue generation because he's

801
00:52:43,213 --> 00:52:47,453
Speaker 4: not prepared really to take away the social programs.

802
00:52:48,453 --> 00:52:51,693
Speaker 3: Okay, look, so that's a that's a problem, and we.

803
00:52:51,733 --> 00:52:57,853
Speaker 4: Strayed a little bit away from technocracy can get this

804
00:52:57,933 --> 00:52:59,253
Speaker 4: economic discussion, but.

805
00:52:59,373 --> 00:53:02,973
Speaker 2: This is not unusual on this podcast. I want to

806
00:53:03,053 --> 00:53:05,333
Speaker 2: hit hit on something that we don't have long for

807
00:53:05,733 --> 00:53:10,853
Speaker 2: unless unless you've got the afternoon free you were giving.

808
00:53:11,133 --> 00:53:15,853
Speaker 2: You were giving a speech last Friday night, and you

809
00:53:16,093 --> 00:53:20,293
Speaker 2: sent me a copy of the You sent me a

810
00:53:20,333 --> 00:53:24,013
Speaker 2: copy of it basically mm hmm, and then you didn't

811
00:53:24,013 --> 00:53:27,293
Speaker 2: give the speech. And I only found that out just

812
00:53:27,333 --> 00:53:29,773
Speaker 2: before we started recording. You didn't give the speech.

813
00:53:29,773 --> 00:53:31,453
Speaker 3: That's right, it was. It was postponed.

814
00:53:31,733 --> 00:53:34,773
Speaker 2: But here is here is the here's the title of it,

815
00:53:34,813 --> 00:53:39,493
Speaker 2: overall the values masquerading as facts the real threat to

816
00:53:39,533 --> 00:53:44,853
Speaker 2: freedom for Westminster democracies. Now it's divided into different parts,

817
00:53:45,093 --> 00:53:47,613
Speaker 2: and those parts are very interesting, but I'm going to

818
00:53:47,653 --> 00:53:50,653
Speaker 2: go for the for the for the for the big

819
00:53:50,733 --> 00:53:54,413
Speaker 2: hit in all that you've written, and you would and

820
00:53:54,453 --> 00:53:58,013
Speaker 2: you will say when you deliver this, have you provided

821
00:53:58,093 --> 00:54:03,653
Speaker 2: pathway for those who are willing to pursue to help

822
00:54:04,213 --> 00:54:07,613
Speaker 2: escape this destination that we all seem to be headed into.

823
00:54:12,333 --> 00:54:16,293
Speaker 4: That's that's the big question I think. I think my

824
00:54:16,373 --> 00:54:19,533
Speaker 4: husband would say to me, Look, you're a great armchair.

825
00:54:19,133 --> 00:54:21,853
Speaker 3: Critic, like so many people, so.

826
00:54:21,973 --> 00:54:25,733
Speaker 4: I think what I'm doing is diagnosing a problem. But

827
00:54:26,053 --> 00:54:30,893
Speaker 4: you're right to say that in both that speech and

828
00:54:31,413 --> 00:54:35,573
Speaker 4: in the we and in the Spectator piece that I

829
00:54:35,613 --> 00:54:39,133
Speaker 4: wrote about this, that I've not sort of set out

830
00:54:39,173 --> 00:54:41,813
Speaker 4: to say, well, look, there's a simple solution to this,

831
00:54:41,893 --> 00:54:44,413
Speaker 4: and this is how we solve it. And I don't

832
00:54:44,573 --> 00:54:51,693
Speaker 4: think there are simple solutions because otherwise, and all popular solutions,

833
00:54:51,693 --> 00:54:56,373
Speaker 4: because otherwise politicians would have jumped them on them already.

834
00:54:57,253 --> 00:55:01,813
Speaker 4: And I do think the problems that I've exposed with

835
00:55:02,693 --> 00:55:06,333
Speaker 4: the sort of the lack of legitimacy of a kind

836
00:55:06,333 --> 00:55:11,933
Speaker 4: of expert or technocrat driven democracy. A democracy, it's still

837
00:55:11,933 --> 00:55:14,653
Speaker 4: a democracy, I suppose, if people are voting, but it's

838
00:55:14,933 --> 00:55:19,333
Speaker 4: sliding towards technocracy. I do think this is quite endemic

839
00:55:19,453 --> 00:55:23,533
Speaker 4: because of what modern democracies, you know, how they're trying

840
00:55:23,533 --> 00:55:26,813
Speaker 4: to do too much and the way they try to

841
00:55:26,813 --> 00:55:27,813
Speaker 4: do it.

842
00:55:27,853 --> 00:55:29,333
Speaker 3: But I do think.

843
00:55:29,733 --> 00:55:36,213
Speaker 4: That particularly the non progressive parties, the conservatives, could quite

844
00:55:36,373 --> 00:55:42,773
Speaker 4: easily change the way they govern to include a series

845
00:55:42,813 --> 00:55:47,173
Speaker 4: of experts when addressing the big problems that society faces.

846
00:55:47,973 --> 00:55:51,493
Speaker 4: And the very best example of this, I suppose is

847
00:55:51,613 --> 00:55:55,653
Speaker 4: the whole of the Western world sort of response to

848
00:55:55,733 --> 00:55:59,653
Speaker 4: the pandemic. What happened in most liberal democracies or in

849
00:55:59,893 --> 00:56:05,013
Speaker 4: states where there were serious lockdowns, so I'm thinking about

850
00:56:05,013 --> 00:56:09,013
Speaker 4: the United States and in Australia too, the differences in

851
00:56:09,053 --> 00:56:15,773
Speaker 4: the way states within federal systems approached the pandemic. But

852
00:56:16,213 --> 00:56:20,213
Speaker 4: the worst responses, and this takes us back to Victoria,

853
00:56:20,333 --> 00:56:26,613
Speaker 4: of course, were the governments that relied on what I

854
00:56:26,653 --> 00:56:32,213
Speaker 4: would respectfully say was sort of second shelf medical experts

855
00:56:32,253 --> 00:56:36,093
Speaker 4: that sort of already resided within the departments of health,

856
00:56:36,093 --> 00:56:38,293
Speaker 4: and so they would run out and in the media

857
00:56:38,333 --> 00:56:42,053
Speaker 4: say the health advices, when really what they needed to

858
00:56:42,093 --> 00:56:49,093
Speaker 4: do was bring in not just their bureaucrats but serious

859
00:56:49,533 --> 00:57:00,493
Speaker 4: globally qualified epidemiologists, economists, educators, social workers, ethicists and pull

860
00:57:00,613 --> 00:57:05,773
Speaker 4: them together and then bravely as a government, balance out

861
00:57:06,453 --> 00:57:11,013
Speaker 4: all that advice was and arrive at something which would

862
00:57:11,053 --> 00:57:15,373
Speaker 4: generally be, you know, something that was more sensible, more proportionate,

863
00:57:16,133 --> 00:57:21,053
Speaker 4: and which took into account the basic rights and needs

864
00:57:21,093 --> 00:57:24,933
Speaker 4: of all of the citizens. Now landing in the sweet

865
00:57:24,973 --> 00:57:28,053
Speaker 4: spot there would have would have been a difficult thing

866
00:57:28,093 --> 00:57:30,733
Speaker 4: to do. But we were so far from the sweet

867
00:57:30,813 --> 00:57:34,053
Speaker 4: spot in our response to the pandemic.

868
00:57:34,293 --> 00:57:38,013
Speaker 2: And that's the classic as you were, as you're probably aware,

869
00:57:38,093 --> 00:57:42,973
Speaker 2: so was this country. Oh yes, yes, but none of

870
00:57:43,013 --> 00:57:46,933
Speaker 2: your people that you're you're referring to got themselves a

871
00:57:46,973 --> 00:57:48,533
Speaker 2: knighthood or a damehood out.

872
00:57:48,373 --> 00:57:51,573
Speaker 3: Of it, which people referring John.

873
00:57:51,373 --> 00:57:53,613
Speaker 2: Talking about the people who came from the bowels of

874
00:57:53,653 --> 00:57:58,853
Speaker 2: the department and took center stage and in one case,

875
00:57:58,893 --> 00:58:00,613
Speaker 2: of course, the Prime Minister of this country.

876
00:58:01,173 --> 00:58:05,093
Speaker 3: Oh that's true. I'm sorry about yes, that is quite right.

877
00:58:05,813 --> 00:58:12,293
Speaker 4: Well, look, Jacinda is a darling of the global elite.

878
00:58:12,853 --> 00:58:16,253
Speaker 4: I mean she is, you know, one of the high priestesses.

879
00:58:16,293 --> 00:58:21,613
Speaker 4: And even though the results of her government or governance

880
00:58:22,173 --> 00:58:24,813
Speaker 4: of New Zealand for those two terms and particularly through

881
00:58:24,853 --> 00:58:29,173
Speaker 4: the pandemic was disastrous for your country, she is nonetheless

882
00:58:29,333 --> 00:58:33,293
Speaker 4: and this is a result of just the complete tribalization

883
00:58:33,493 --> 00:58:39,733
Speaker 4: now of our politics, and particularly at a global level.

884
00:58:40,013 --> 00:58:43,493
Speaker 3: She's been canonized and will remain.

885
00:58:43,573 --> 00:58:48,213
Speaker 4: So I suppose it doesn't matter that she failed economically

886
00:58:48,293 --> 00:58:52,293
Speaker 4: and that the place sort of blew up over co governance,

887
00:58:52,333 --> 00:58:54,893
Speaker 4: and that it all was overreach and went too far,

888
00:58:55,173 --> 00:58:58,093
Speaker 4: and that nothing that was done in the pandemic was proportionate.

889
00:58:58,413 --> 00:59:03,693
Speaker 4: It doesn't matter to those global elites who basically look

890
00:59:03,733 --> 00:59:07,573
Speaker 4: at her and they say her values are right and

891
00:59:07,973 --> 00:59:10,333
Speaker 4: they can be questioned, and they're our values.

892
00:59:10,733 --> 00:59:15,093
Speaker 3: I mean, look this at that level, it's becoming religious.

893
00:59:15,453 --> 00:59:17,893
Speaker 2: I think it's a good, very good way to put it,

894
00:59:17,933 --> 00:59:20,173
Speaker 2: actually that I think you're I think you're dragging your

895
00:59:20,173 --> 00:59:22,093
Speaker 2: heels though and saying it's becoming.

896
00:59:23,573 --> 00:59:30,333
Speaker 4: Yes, well, look, I like to be fairly even in

897
00:59:30,373 --> 00:59:34,013
Speaker 4: the way I approach things and not I don't like

898
00:59:34,373 --> 00:59:40,613
Speaker 4: to think in catastrophic terms, because there's you know, there's

899
00:59:40,653 --> 00:59:45,053
Speaker 4: always a quid quote pro and balance. But look, the

900
00:59:46,413 --> 00:59:50,973
Speaker 4: I do often say to people who say to me, Luise,

901
00:59:51,813 --> 00:59:54,453
Speaker 4: because I'm married to a politician, so I'm involved in

902
00:59:54,573 --> 00:59:57,493
Speaker 4: politics at the cole face locally, and they say, Louise,

903
00:59:58,133 --> 01:00:02,293
Speaker 4: what's going wrong with our society? And I often the

904
01:00:02,333 --> 01:00:05,893
Speaker 4: first words I usually say are, we've stopped going to

905
01:00:05,933 --> 01:00:09,853
Speaker 4: church on Sundays. Now I have to I'm not particularly

906
01:00:10,253 --> 01:00:14,253
Speaker 4: religious myself, but I'm a strong cultural Christian and I

907
01:00:14,293 --> 01:00:16,413
Speaker 4: grew up in a society and in a place, in

908
01:00:16,453 --> 01:00:19,653
Speaker 4: a small country town where that's what a lot of

909
01:00:19,733 --> 01:00:22,893
Speaker 4: us did, and there was you know, we would all

910
01:00:22,893 --> 01:00:26,253
Speaker 4: come together and commune and listen to a sermon that

911
01:00:26,573 --> 01:00:29,853
Speaker 4: everyone agreed with. It was about values that everyone agreed with,

912
01:00:30,453 --> 01:00:35,253
Speaker 4: and that has gone from the lives of most people

913
01:00:35,413 --> 01:00:38,853
Speaker 4: in level democracies, less so in America. America Who's US

914
01:00:38,973 --> 01:00:44,173
Speaker 4: is far more Christian than Australia and New Zealand, even

915
01:00:44,173 --> 01:00:46,973
Speaker 4: though many of us sort of subscribed to those strong

916
01:00:47,013 --> 01:00:52,013
Speaker 4: Christian values. But I do think that without a strong

917
01:00:52,093 --> 01:00:57,373
Speaker 4: set of moral and social values, there is a vacuum,

918
01:00:57,853 --> 01:01:01,853
Speaker 4: and I think that vacuum has been filled for the

919
01:01:01,893 --> 01:01:08,893
Speaker 4: progressive left by these these views on in particular climate

920
01:01:10,173 --> 01:01:16,453
Speaker 4: climate overreach. I would say just catastrophism and gender in

921
01:01:16,493 --> 01:01:22,653
Speaker 4: particular is huge and equality, but their equality is now

922
01:01:22,733 --> 01:01:26,133
Speaker 4: sort of ground in sort of what identity politics. So

923
01:01:26,173 --> 01:01:30,293
Speaker 4: they've split everyone into tribes and racial tribes and gender

924
01:01:30,413 --> 01:01:33,613
Speaker 4: tribes and it's not pretty.

925
01:01:34,173 --> 01:01:37,453
Speaker 2: What would you say the future was for Australian multiculturalism.

926
01:01:38,453 --> 01:01:40,373
Speaker 3: Oh gosh.

927
01:01:40,453 --> 01:01:44,533
Speaker 4: Look, we're one of the most multicultural, if not the

928
01:01:44,533 --> 01:01:49,053
Speaker 4: most multicultural country on Earth, and to date it has

929
01:01:49,093 --> 01:01:54,053
Speaker 4: worked very well for us. But like all liberal democracies,

930
01:01:54,933 --> 01:01:59,533
Speaker 4: at the moment, we're facing serious problems with mass migration,

931
01:02:00,453 --> 01:02:04,413
Speaker 4: and so that, you know, then we're getting into big

932
01:02:04,453 --> 01:02:11,133
Speaker 4: debates about multiculturalism. You know, whether a pluralistic society on

933
01:02:11,253 --> 01:02:14,413
Speaker 4: steroids can work. I mean, my retort would be that

934
01:02:15,333 --> 01:02:18,213
Speaker 4: in theory, it should be able to work if people,

935
01:02:18,573 --> 01:02:22,173
Speaker 4: if most the bulk of the citizenry, subscribe to the

936
01:02:22,213 --> 01:02:25,613
Speaker 4: same values and accept that the institutions which govern us

937
01:02:25,613 --> 01:02:31,013
Speaker 4: are legitimate. But I'm not sure where it goes for

938
01:02:31,213 --> 01:02:35,253
Speaker 4: us from here. I hesitate to say. I mean, we

939
01:02:36,653 --> 01:02:41,853
Speaker 4: I do say to people at the moment that the

940
01:02:41,933 --> 01:02:49,933
Speaker 4: extreme anti immigration surges that are informing ordinary people in

941
01:02:50,053 --> 01:02:53,973
Speaker 4: the UK and in the US at the moment are

942
01:02:54,053 --> 01:03:00,253
Speaker 4: driven primarily by mass illegal immigration and legal immigration. But

943
01:03:00,293 --> 01:03:03,533
Speaker 4: they haven't yet had their stopped the boats moment that

944
01:03:03,573 --> 01:03:07,893
Speaker 4: Australia had in twenty thirteen when it elected Tony Abbott and.

945
01:03:07,813 --> 01:03:09,693
Speaker 3: When we we were.

946
01:03:09,573 --> 01:03:15,413
Speaker 4: Facing and enduring at that point mass illegal immigration, and

947
01:03:15,493 --> 01:03:18,813
Speaker 4: of course the Abbott government did fix that that it

948
01:03:18,893 --> 01:03:19,693
Speaker 4: got on top of that.

949
01:03:20,213 --> 01:03:21,293
Speaker 3: It was very popular.

950
01:03:22,133 --> 01:03:26,853
Speaker 4: And it's only now that the governments in the UK

951
01:03:27,293 --> 01:03:31,053
Speaker 4: and in the US the Mexican border and then of

952
01:03:31,053 --> 01:03:35,653
Speaker 4: course the boat problem in the UK are.

953
01:03:34,853 --> 01:03:36,293
Speaker 3: Having their own moment.

954
01:03:36,853 --> 01:03:40,333
Speaker 4: So I think mass immigration generally is a big problem

955
01:03:40,373 --> 01:03:42,573
Speaker 4: across the West because there's a sort of sense, particularly

956
01:03:42,613 --> 01:03:45,333
Speaker 4: from the left, that really we should just let anyone

957
01:03:45,573 --> 01:03:48,013
Speaker 4: in who wants to come here and accommodate them and

958
01:03:48,733 --> 01:03:53,573
Speaker 4: just have a wonderful society that is pluralistic and multicultural

959
01:03:53,573 --> 01:03:54,133
Speaker 4: and we can.

960
01:03:54,013 --> 01:03:56,813
Speaker 2: All get on all vote for the left.

961
01:03:57,653 --> 01:04:00,813
Speaker 4: Well that's right, certainly in the first place. I mean

962
01:04:00,853 --> 01:04:06,213
Speaker 4: I don't. I mean, we have migrant cohorts in Australia

963
01:04:06,293 --> 01:04:10,933
Speaker 4: that conservative vote for sure, and over time become more

964
01:04:10,973 --> 01:04:14,413
Speaker 4: conservative voting. I mean a lot of our margrant cohort

965
01:04:14,613 --> 01:04:22,093
Speaker 4: are socially conservative. They tend to be churchgoers or people

966
01:04:22,093 --> 01:04:26,213
Speaker 4: of faith. More generally, a lot of them were like

967
01:04:26,333 --> 01:04:29,893
Speaker 4: running small businesses, and so for a lot of our

968
01:04:29,933 --> 01:04:38,173
Speaker 4: Margrant cohort here, they are natural conservative voters. And certainly,

969
01:04:38,253 --> 01:04:41,573
Speaker 4: I mean Donald Trump found that he could access much

970
01:04:41,613 --> 01:04:44,533
Speaker 4: more of that margrant vote for those reasons, I think

971
01:04:44,573 --> 01:04:47,893
Speaker 4: in the last election than the Republicans have been able

972
01:04:47,893 --> 01:04:51,173
Speaker 4: to for a long time. But the key to it,

973
01:04:51,253 --> 01:04:56,213
Speaker 4: I think for the Conservatives is maintaining the basic values that.

974
01:04:56,333 --> 01:04:59,573
Speaker 3: Sort of established our wonderful societies.

975
01:04:59,613 --> 01:05:01,933
Speaker 4: And you really go back to the First Amendment in

976
01:05:01,973 --> 01:05:07,493
Speaker 4: the American Constitution to look to the basic principles on

977
01:05:07,613 --> 01:05:10,493
Speaker 4: that in a speech freedom of me impress.

978
01:05:11,973 --> 01:05:15,853
Speaker 2: Freedom of speech is under threat everywhere it is, which

979
01:05:15,933 --> 01:05:19,173
Speaker 2: brings us to another matter. But before before we get

980
01:05:19,213 --> 01:05:23,253
Speaker 2: to that, and I want to issue an invitation to

981
01:05:23,333 --> 01:05:26,853
Speaker 2: you to make a return once you've made the speech

982
01:05:27,213 --> 01:05:31,093
Speaker 2: that you didn't make last Friday. Values masquerading as facts

983
01:05:31,133 --> 01:05:34,893
Speaker 2: the real threat to freedom for Westminster democracies. I'm going

984
01:05:34,933 --> 01:05:38,373
Speaker 2: to quote the different chapters if you like. Part one

985
01:05:38,453 --> 01:05:43,253
Speaker 2: Anecdote and Philosophers, Part two Nitzske and Hayak, Part three,

986
01:05:43,493 --> 01:05:51,293
Speaker 2: USA and Institutional Comparison. And I, having read it, know

987
01:05:51,373 --> 01:05:53,173
Speaker 2: the value of it and I want to share it.

988
01:05:53,733 --> 01:05:55,493
Speaker 2: You were happy to commit.

989
01:05:56,653 --> 01:05:58,573
Speaker 3: Oh yes, I'd love to come back for another.

990
01:05:59,493 --> 01:06:02,533
Speaker 2: I'm chair chash great now, so.

991
01:06:02,693 --> 01:06:03,933
Speaker 3: We can where we can.

992
01:06:04,333 --> 01:06:07,413
Speaker 4: We can diagnose the problems, but not quite solve them.

993
01:06:08,733 --> 01:06:11,973
Speaker 2: No, I think we could solve it. I do, but

994
01:06:12,653 --> 01:06:16,213
Speaker 2: they wouldn't be popular. The question that I've saved till last.

995
01:06:16,493 --> 01:06:21,373
Speaker 2: You've touched on it briefly the turning point for the

996
01:06:21,493 --> 01:06:24,733
Speaker 2: United States or is it the turning point for the

997
01:06:24,773 --> 01:06:28,813
Speaker 2: rest of the Western world in particular Charlie Kirk. How

998
01:06:28,933 --> 01:06:32,973
Speaker 2: much of an influence was Charlie Kirk on Australian use

999
01:06:33,013 --> 01:06:33,453
Speaker 2: do you think?

1000
01:06:34,413 --> 01:06:37,133
Speaker 4: Look, I don't know that anyone could measure that, because

1001
01:06:37,533 --> 01:06:42,693
Speaker 4: no one's sort of watching to what extent Australian youths

1002
01:06:42,853 --> 01:06:45,053
Speaker 4: engage okay with him and.

1003
01:06:45,133 --> 01:06:45,893
Speaker 3: Like minded people.

1004
01:06:46,013 --> 01:06:49,213
Speaker 4: But I know it's strong now I have I have

1005
01:06:49,813 --> 01:06:54,333
Speaker 4: four young adult children, two boys, two girls, young men

1006
01:06:54,373 --> 01:07:02,533
Speaker 4: and women, and certainly my sons and their cohort, both

1007
01:07:02,613 --> 01:07:03,373
Speaker 4: left and right.

1008
01:07:03,493 --> 01:07:04,093
Speaker 3: I think.

1009
01:07:05,773 --> 01:07:08,693
Speaker 4: Certainly knew who he was and watched him and listen

1010
01:07:08,733 --> 01:07:10,533
Speaker 4: to him some more than others, I would say, But

1011
01:07:10,573 --> 01:07:15,573
Speaker 4: I would say it's fairly significant. It's certainly on social

1012
01:07:15,653 --> 01:07:20,093
Speaker 4: media amongst those people and amongst the left and the right,

1013
01:07:20,133 --> 01:07:25,413
Speaker 4: because of course there've been different responses shockingly to the assassination.

1014
01:07:27,053 --> 01:07:29,733
Speaker 3: It's had a huge global impact, the assassination.

1015
01:07:29,853 --> 01:07:34,613
Speaker 4: But I do think there is without doubt a move

1016
01:07:34,773 --> 01:07:38,893
Speaker 4: amongst young men in particular who feel sort of left

1017
01:07:38,933 --> 01:07:43,373
Speaker 4: out of the focus on young women that is now

1018
01:07:43,413 --> 01:07:48,293
Speaker 4: just completely I think, out of control. And I think

1019
01:07:48,453 --> 01:07:52,973
Speaker 4: they are subscribing and looking for a set of values

1020
01:07:53,893 --> 01:07:56,733
Speaker 4: that helps them to make sense of the world.

1021
01:07:58,053 --> 01:07:58,653
Speaker 3: In fact, I.

1022
01:07:59,613 --> 01:08:04,293
Speaker 4: Did read a piece in The Australian by an American,

1023
01:08:04,893 --> 01:08:07,573
Speaker 4: a professor of American politics from the University of Melbourne,

1024
01:08:08,333 --> 01:08:12,333
Speaker 4: published yesterday online. His name is Professor Timothy Lynch, and

1025
01:08:12,373 --> 01:08:18,573
Speaker 4: he deals with the kirk assassination and he talks about

1026
01:08:18,573 --> 01:08:23,213
Speaker 4: how Austrai university campuses have been colonized by the left

1027
01:08:23,293 --> 01:08:27,973
Speaker 4: mostly and I'll just read for your listeners a very

1028
01:08:28,013 --> 01:08:30,453
Speaker 4: short sentence which struck me.

1029
01:08:31,253 --> 01:08:33,813
Speaker 3: He said, he said progressive eighteen year olds. And there's

1030
01:08:33,813 --> 01:08:34,933
Speaker 3: that word progressive again.

1031
01:08:35,133 --> 01:08:38,013
Speaker 4: So it is certainly creeping into the lexicon. But this man,

1032
01:08:38,053 --> 01:08:42,173
Speaker 4: of course is a political scientist. Progressive eighteen year olds

1033
01:08:42,213 --> 01:08:46,373
Speaker 4: appear in O week and we coddle them. How super

1034
01:08:46,453 --> 01:08:50,213
Speaker 4: you go to climate rallies. Quote your preferred pronoun badge

1035
01:08:50,213 --> 01:08:51,773
Speaker 4: looks great, quote.

1036
01:08:51,853 --> 01:08:57,813
Speaker 3: Be safe quote, and you go girl right. And then

1037
01:08:57,853 --> 01:08:58,333
Speaker 3: he goes on.

1038
01:08:58,293 --> 01:09:02,693
Speaker 4: To say their conservative peers, in contrast, are inadvertently taught

1039
01:09:02,733 --> 01:09:06,213
Speaker 4: some crucial survival skills. They must stuck and weave, choose

1040
01:09:06,213 --> 01:09:09,213
Speaker 4: their battles wisely, know when to win race and resist

1041
01:09:09,293 --> 01:09:10,053
Speaker 4: the orthodoxy.

1042
01:09:10,733 --> 01:09:11,773
Speaker 3: It's a brilliant.

1043
01:09:13,253 --> 01:09:17,173
Speaker 4: Summation of you know, it puts Charlie Kirk in context brilliantly.

1044
01:09:17,213 --> 01:09:18,013
Speaker 3: And of course it's.

1045
01:09:17,853 --> 01:09:23,853
Speaker 4: By an academic, an Australian academic who clearly leans slightly

1046
01:09:24,333 --> 01:09:24,893
Speaker 4: center right.

1047
01:09:24,973 --> 01:09:29,173
Speaker 3: I would say, so, but that is what's going on.

1048
01:09:29,213 --> 01:09:34,613
Speaker 4: But of course there is pushback and it's growing amongst

1049
01:09:35,213 --> 01:09:39,973
Speaker 4: I think youth more generally, but particularly young male youth,

1050
01:09:40,773 --> 01:09:43,253
Speaker 4: because they've been left out of the conversation.

1051
01:09:43,653 --> 01:09:46,573
Speaker 3: Everything's about girls, you know.

1052
01:09:46,693 --> 01:09:49,333
Speaker 4: I went to a local theater production that was a

1053
01:09:49,373 --> 01:09:54,453
Speaker 4: school based production here in my hometown over the weekend,

1054
01:09:55,493 --> 01:09:59,213
Speaker 4: and it involved getting representatives, young representatives from the schools

1055
01:09:59,253 --> 01:10:02,773
Speaker 4: writing a script and then the local theater group would

1056
01:10:03,053 --> 01:10:06,813
Speaker 4: run these little plays, mini plays for ten minutes each.

1057
01:10:07,133 --> 01:10:11,213
Speaker 4: So it was the competition in the schools, the playwrights

1058
01:10:11,253 --> 01:10:12,053
Speaker 4: in that production.

1059
01:10:12,613 --> 01:10:13,293
Speaker 3: I think.

1060
01:10:14,573 --> 01:10:19,013
Speaker 4: Of the six competitors, five of them were young girls.

1061
01:10:19,613 --> 01:10:20,853
Speaker 3: There was only one young man.

1062
01:10:21,133 --> 01:10:22,973
Speaker 2: I'm surprised at that.

1063
01:10:22,093 --> 01:10:24,373
Speaker 4: And that's the sort of thing we're saying. So you

1064
01:10:24,653 --> 01:10:26,933
Speaker 4: would expect young men by now, this has been going

1065
01:10:26,973 --> 01:10:29,693
Speaker 4: on for a long time. You would expect young men

1066
01:10:29,773 --> 01:10:33,013
Speaker 4: to be feeling that they need to find something to

1067
01:10:33,053 --> 01:10:33,653
Speaker 4: sustain them.

1068
01:10:33,693 --> 01:10:38,733
Speaker 3: So I do the likes of Charlie Kirk online.

1069
01:10:38,693 --> 01:10:43,133
Speaker 4: Though I don't particularly like that online world, there's not

1070
01:10:43,253 --> 01:10:46,853
Speaker 4: enough thoughtfulness in it, but the likes of him, I

1071
01:10:46,853 --> 01:10:47,453
Speaker 4: am sure.

1072
01:10:47,853 --> 01:10:51,853
Speaker 2: Just to round it off, we have a thirty year

1073
01:10:51,893 --> 01:10:56,413
Speaker 2: old young woman. It's part of our family, and she

1074
01:10:56,813 --> 01:11:01,493
Speaker 2: and her friends were distraught when they got the news,

1075
01:11:01,573 --> 01:11:07,533
Speaker 2: and it's something that I was really unaware of, this

1076
01:11:08,933 --> 01:11:12,853
Speaker 2: involvement or attention being paid. And I have to say

1077
01:11:12,893 --> 01:11:15,933
Speaker 2: that I was disturbed at the reaction because it was

1078
01:11:16,653 --> 01:11:20,653
Speaker 2: a very ugly thing, but I was very pleased that

1079
01:11:20,853 --> 01:11:23,613
Speaker 2: was the outcome instead of I mean the verbal outcome,

1080
01:11:23,813 --> 01:11:27,973
Speaker 2: instead of or emotional outcome, instead of some of what's

1081
01:11:28,013 --> 01:11:32,413
Speaker 2: been recorded as going on around the world in other quarters. Yes,

1082
01:11:33,573 --> 01:11:35,493
Speaker 2: sickening anyway.

1083
01:11:38,133 --> 01:11:41,133
Speaker 4: Well, we could spend a long time talking about that.

1084
01:11:41,293 --> 01:11:45,373
Speaker 4: But there is a political scientist, an American data scientists,

1085
01:11:45,373 --> 01:11:49,773
Speaker 4: actually over the weekend published I think he published it before,

1086
01:11:49,813 --> 01:11:54,333
Speaker 4: but he in a blog identified an increasing trend at

1087
01:11:54,333 --> 01:11:58,773
Speaker 4: the moment in America of political assassination, which is the

1088
01:11:58,813 --> 01:12:02,973
Speaker 4: trend line looks to be greater than the late sixties,

1089
01:12:03,013 --> 01:12:05,373
Speaker 4: where there was an equivalent sort of spike.

1090
01:12:06,213 --> 01:12:07,733
Speaker 3: So we are seeing in America.

1091
01:12:07,773 --> 01:12:11,453
Speaker 4: Of course, in the US you know, significant instability and

1092
01:12:12,053 --> 01:12:15,813
Speaker 4: precariousness and the democracy. But of course America has always

1093
01:12:15,813 --> 01:12:18,413
Speaker 4: sort of had these big arguments often for the rest

1094
01:12:18,453 --> 01:12:20,413
Speaker 4: of the world, and it convulses and we all look

1095
01:12:20,493 --> 01:12:23,773
Speaker 4: on and say, wow, look at that. But I'm hopeful

1096
01:12:23,813 --> 01:12:25,613
Speaker 4: that it will sort of come out the other side

1097
01:12:25,653 --> 01:12:30,573
Speaker 4: in better shape than it went in. We have to

1098
01:12:30,613 --> 01:12:34,493
Speaker 4: hope that, because if America sort of does not pull through,

1099
01:12:34,573 --> 01:12:38,853
Speaker 4: then that would be catastrophic for the Westminster democracies, because

1100
01:12:38,893 --> 01:12:42,733
Speaker 4: of course America the US is the loadster democracy.

1101
01:12:43,133 --> 01:12:46,933
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Let me thank you for the time you've devoted.

1102
01:12:47,413 --> 01:12:50,413
Speaker 2: I'm very pleased that you've agreed to come back whenever

1103
01:12:50,493 --> 01:12:53,173
Speaker 2: this is and I hope it soon and on behalf

1104
01:12:53,213 --> 01:12:56,413
Speaker 2: of them. Everybody, I think it's been very good talking

1105
01:12:56,413 --> 01:12:56,653
Speaker 2: with you.

1106
01:12:57,093 --> 01:12:58,933
Speaker 3: I really enjoyed it. Later and thank you.

1107
01:13:12,933 --> 01:13:17,853
Speaker 2: Miss producer for the mail room in podcast three to two.

1108
01:13:18,573 --> 01:13:21,293
Speaker 5: You will in late and I'm fantastic, thank you.

1109
01:13:21,413 --> 01:13:23,373
Speaker 2: Being a bit sad around the place for a bit

1110
01:13:24,453 --> 01:13:27,333
Speaker 2: and I don't, well, not you just people have been

1111
01:13:27,373 --> 01:13:28,253
Speaker 2: a bit upset.

1112
01:13:28,333 --> 01:13:31,533
Speaker 5: Oh, yes, well, it's been a shocking week, really, hasn't it.

1113
01:13:31,613 --> 01:13:36,173
Speaker 2: Well, it was very frustrating because it happened after we'd

1114
01:13:36,453 --> 01:13:38,373
Speaker 2: done last week's podcast, so we had to wait for

1115
01:13:38,373 --> 01:13:42,133
Speaker 2: a week. Anyway, there's been a substantial amount of commentary,

1116
01:13:42,813 --> 01:13:46,133
Speaker 2: some of which we have selected. May I lead? And

1117
01:13:46,173 --> 01:13:49,893
Speaker 2: I do so because this one starts at the beginning,

1118
01:13:51,213 --> 01:13:54,533
Speaker 2: dated September eleven. Late and I heard the news this

1119
01:13:54,613 --> 01:13:57,253
Speaker 2: morning that Charlie Kirk had been shot, and later learned

1120
01:13:57,253 --> 01:14:00,973
Speaker 2: that he had subsequently died. This afternoon, my wife and

1121
01:14:01,013 --> 01:14:03,013
Speaker 2: I have been watching Fox News, which is covering the

1122
01:14:03,053 --> 01:14:07,853
Speaker 2: situation thoroughly. Some people might say, well, it's only in America,

1123
01:14:08,373 --> 01:14:10,773
Speaker 2: but I believe it'll turn out to be much more

1124
01:14:10,853 --> 01:14:14,813
Speaker 2: than that. Who would have imagined that a personable, smart, erudite,

1125
01:14:14,973 --> 01:14:18,693
Speaker 2: young family man, a Christian and a conservative might be

1126
01:14:18,733 --> 01:14:23,013
Speaker 2: assassinated for encouraging open debate at a university. It's a

1127
01:14:23,053 --> 01:14:26,773
Speaker 2: threat to democracy and freedom of speech everywhere, not just

1128
01:14:26,853 --> 01:14:30,253
Speaker 2: the US, and I hope his loss will be some

1129
01:14:30,373 --> 01:14:35,013
Speaker 2: sort of turning point for us all veil Charlie Kirk

1130
01:14:35,333 --> 01:14:40,813
Speaker 2: never forgotten everything that Barry has said is actually accurate.

1131
01:14:41,533 --> 01:14:43,773
Speaker 2: And let me just clear something up because some people

1132
01:14:43,813 --> 01:14:45,733
Speaker 2: seem to think that there is a You can't call

1133
01:14:45,773 --> 01:14:49,813
Speaker 2: it an assassination. You certainly can, and that's exactly what

1134
01:14:49,933 --> 01:14:50,333
Speaker 2: it was.

1135
01:14:51,693 --> 01:14:54,613
Speaker 6: Layton Ross says finally had the opportunity to review the

1136
01:14:54,613 --> 01:14:58,013
Speaker 6: podcast three oh one Okay. Great talks about a lot

1137
01:14:58,013 --> 01:15:00,173
Speaker 6: of things that would all be wonderful to have, but

1138
01:15:00,493 --> 01:15:03,493
Speaker 6: as is stated, you need to have the productivity to

1139
01:15:03,533 --> 01:15:07,613
Speaker 6: support all of these things, and currently nothing is changing

1140
01:15:07,693 --> 01:15:10,133
Speaker 6: because of the cost of energy. And this is the

1141
01:15:10,173 --> 01:15:13,653
Speaker 6: fundamental issue. All the rest of it lovely stuff, but

1142
01:15:13,693 --> 01:15:17,973
Speaker 6: nothing will change without the energy cost reduction. Here is

1143
01:15:18,013 --> 01:15:20,853
Speaker 6: where I am. You can have a highly paid workforce

1144
01:15:20,933 --> 01:15:23,733
Speaker 6: and hence all the social welfare stuff taken care of

1145
01:15:23,813 --> 01:15:26,453
Speaker 6: with a low cost of energy, so you can produce

1146
01:15:26,493 --> 01:15:30,133
Speaker 6: things value add and then sell to the world marketplace.

1147
01:15:31,093 --> 01:15:34,213
Speaker 6: You cannot have a highly paid workforce and a high

1148
01:15:34,293 --> 01:15:37,373
Speaker 6: cost of energy, because then you cannot produce anything that

1149
01:15:37,613 --> 01:15:42,973
Speaker 6: will enable reinvestment of capital at an acceptable level. Look

1150
01:15:43,013 --> 01:15:47,533
Speaker 6: at the de industrialization of Europe and Australia. Trump recognizes

1151
01:15:47,613 --> 01:15:50,373
Speaker 6: this and is trying to change the paradigm in the States.

1152
01:15:50,493 --> 01:15:53,133
Speaker 6: The rest of US have caved to China and Asia

1153
01:15:53,213 --> 01:15:57,493
Speaker 6: manufacturing over the last thirty years. New Zealand is a

1154
01:15:57,533 --> 01:16:00,733
Speaker 6: medium to low wage economy, but we are getting higher

1155
01:16:00,733 --> 01:16:05,733
Speaker 6: and higher energy costs. So why manufacture things here? Good lord, Look,

1156
01:16:05,773 --> 01:16:09,733
Speaker 6: you cannot even keep a lumber industry running. We produce food,

1157
01:16:09,853 --> 01:16:13,173
Speaker 6: probably more efficiently than anyone else, but by and large

1158
01:16:13,213 --> 01:16:16,293
Speaker 6: we send it offshore with minimal value add because of

1159
01:16:16,373 --> 01:16:20,413
Speaker 6: processing costs. And Ross goes on to give you his solution.

1160
01:16:20,653 --> 01:16:23,693
Speaker 6: He says, gas industry stuffed, Who is going to come

1161
01:16:23,733 --> 01:16:27,373
Speaker 6: and redevelop the fields? However, Number one, we need a

1162
01:16:27,413 --> 01:16:31,293
Speaker 6: bipartisan agreement in government for the future to realize we

1163
01:16:31,333 --> 01:16:34,933
Speaker 6: need low cost energy. Number two, get on the plane

1164
01:16:34,933 --> 01:16:38,053
Speaker 6: to Washington and get an agreement from the USA on

1165
01:16:38,133 --> 01:16:41,973
Speaker 6: a modern coal fired power station and a nuclear power

1166
01:16:41,973 --> 01:16:46,253
Speaker 6: station sized to power Auckland. And then number three, Ross,

1167
01:16:46,293 --> 01:16:49,093
Speaker 6: I can't quite make out what you're trying to say.

1168
01:16:49,133 --> 01:16:52,333
Speaker 6: Here or perhaps it's me not understanding, but build a

1169
01:16:52,373 --> 01:16:56,293
Speaker 6: power station in the South Island for running for twenty

1170
01:16:56,293 --> 01:16:59,533
Speaker 6: five years and then total cleanup. People have to realize

1171
01:16:59,573 --> 01:17:02,173
Speaker 6: it so much more more is going to be so

1172
01:17:02,253 --> 01:17:08,013
Speaker 6: much more efficient than currently huntly emissions negligible in comparison.

1173
01:17:08,573 --> 01:17:12,333
Speaker 6: And then number four builds nuclear Kipra and will take

1174
01:17:12,493 --> 01:17:15,573
Speaker 6: all of the time. And then when running decommission the

1175
01:17:15,573 --> 01:17:19,653
Speaker 6: coal fired power station. There is the solution for the

1176
01:17:19,653 --> 01:17:24,213
Speaker 6: twenty thirties energy issue people are ignoring. Ask your energy

1177
01:17:24,253 --> 01:17:28,213
Speaker 6: guy you have on, says Ross. And then ongoing for

1178
01:17:28,253 --> 01:17:30,853
Speaker 6: the next one hundred years for the country. Continuing to

1179
01:17:30,933 --> 01:17:34,813
Speaker 6: ignore this just ads cost and continues the blame game

1180
01:17:35,013 --> 01:17:36,333
Speaker 6: and the excuses.

1181
01:17:36,693 --> 01:17:39,613
Speaker 2: You know what, I've decided. I've come to the conclusion

1182
01:17:40,013 --> 01:17:43,533
Speaker 2: New Zealand is actually the winner of the gold medal

1183
01:17:43,653 --> 01:17:46,853
Speaker 2: in self defeat. Australia is running a pretty tight second

1184
01:17:46,893 --> 01:17:51,093
Speaker 2: at the moment too. Now from Brett, it goes back

1185
01:17:51,133 --> 01:17:54,813
Speaker 2: to something that he sent me and we utilized last

1186
01:17:54,813 --> 01:17:57,253
Speaker 2: week to do with the Remember I said something about

1187
01:17:57,333 --> 01:18:00,213
Speaker 2: the Hamas tunnels and there were more tunnels. There were

1188
01:18:00,213 --> 01:18:03,893
Speaker 2: more miles or kilometers than there were in the tube

1189
01:18:03,933 --> 01:18:08,573
Speaker 2: in London, and I questioned it, so he says tunnels. Yes,

1190
01:18:08,773 --> 01:18:11,413
Speaker 2: that would be the better part of five hundred kilometers

1191
01:18:11,453 --> 01:18:14,693
Speaker 2: of tunnels Hamas has constructed over many years under their

1192
01:18:14,693 --> 01:18:18,053
Speaker 2: main city. So I understand it has been said the

1193
01:18:18,213 --> 01:18:23,493
Speaker 2: entire city population a generalization, could have been protected from

1194
01:18:23,493 --> 01:18:27,453
Speaker 2: the bombing above with very few casualties. Albeit a tight

1195
01:18:27,493 --> 01:18:30,933
Speaker 2: fit Ukraine death toll of civilians is relatively small in

1196
01:18:31,013 --> 01:18:35,213
Speaker 2: comparison because they take shelter just as Londoners once did.

1197
01:18:35,813 --> 01:18:38,053
Speaker 2: Now at the heart of the issue is Hamas doesn't

1198
01:18:38,093 --> 01:18:42,013
Speaker 2: allow the civilian population to take shelter in the tunnels.

1199
01:18:42,173 --> 01:18:45,173
Speaker 2: As I currently understand it, they use civilians as a

1200
01:18:45,253 --> 01:18:48,493
Speaker 2: human shield and fodder for the propaganda war which so

1201
01:18:48,573 --> 01:18:53,653
Speaker 2: many of us wilfully buy into. Hamas is very difficult

1202
01:18:53,653 --> 01:18:56,493
Speaker 2: to root out. They deliberately provoked this war in a

1203
01:18:56,533 --> 01:19:00,453
Speaker 2: most horrendous manner for their own purposes, in full knowledge

1204
01:19:00,493 --> 01:19:02,133
Speaker 2: of what they would bring down on the heads of

1205
01:19:02,173 --> 01:19:05,973
Speaker 2: the civilian population. Hamas deliberately prolonged the war for as

1206
01:19:06,013 --> 01:19:08,893
Speaker 2: long as possible because it serves them. Do not want

1207
01:19:08,893 --> 01:19:10,973
Speaker 2: the cycle of war to ever end, and will do

1208
01:19:11,053 --> 01:19:13,973
Speaker 2: everything that they can to keep it going another generation.

1209
01:19:14,053 --> 01:19:16,533
Speaker 2: Has been deliberately exposed to the horrors of war so

1210
01:19:16,653 --> 01:19:19,373
Speaker 2: her mass can twist more souls with the sickness of

1211
01:19:19,413 --> 01:19:24,453
Speaker 2: hate which hermess itself fuels. There is more, but I

1212
01:19:24,533 --> 01:19:25,493
Speaker 2: think that will suffice.

1213
01:19:26,733 --> 01:19:29,813
Speaker 6: Laden Jin says, today the woke culture is being pushed back,

1214
01:19:29,853 --> 01:19:33,813
Speaker 6: and it's kicking, screaming, and even killing in protest. Charlie

1215
01:19:33,893 --> 01:19:37,573
Speaker 6: Kirk's assassination was a sickeningly gruesome depiction of how the

1216
01:19:37,653 --> 01:19:41,373
Speaker 6: left wants to kill free speech. They hate free speech

1217
01:19:41,453 --> 01:19:44,213
Speaker 6: and truths so much that the sons of devils are

1218
01:19:44,213 --> 01:19:47,333
Speaker 6: willing to kill a thirty one year old, loving conservative

1219
01:19:47,413 --> 01:19:52,053
Speaker 6: Christian husband and father of two children. In a recent

1220
01:19:52,133 --> 01:19:55,933
Speaker 6: interview with Megan Kelly, Victor Davis Hansen said that this

1221
01:19:55,973 --> 01:19:58,253
Speaker 6: is the first time in my memory that a major

1222
01:19:58,333 --> 01:20:03,613
Speaker 6: journalistic figure has been targeted for assassination. The left has

1223
01:20:03,773 --> 01:20:06,293
Speaker 6: no idea, says jin what they've done when they shot

1224
01:20:06,413 --> 01:20:11,093
Speaker 6: Charlie Kirk. He says, be strong and courageous, don't be frightened,

1225
01:20:11,413 --> 01:20:14,293
Speaker 6: do not be dismayed. The tired is turning, and it's

1226
01:20:14,333 --> 01:20:17,693
Speaker 6: time to take out our surfboards and ride on the

1227
01:20:17,733 --> 01:20:20,013
Speaker 6: incoming conservative tsunami.

1228
01:20:20,133 --> 01:20:20,933
Speaker 5: That's from Jin.

1229
01:20:21,293 --> 01:20:26,973
Speaker 2: Jin is always pretty good, very good Nathan. Nathan has

1230
01:20:27,013 --> 01:20:32,893
Speaker 2: a history with me, I mean, with the program, but

1231
01:20:32,933 --> 01:20:34,453
Speaker 2: I don't think i've heard from him for a while.

1232
01:20:34,933 --> 01:20:37,453
Speaker 2: He says, I'm sure you'll get many emails about Charlie

1233
01:20:37,533 --> 01:20:40,333
Speaker 2: Kirk's death. However, I would like to lodge my thoughts

1234
01:20:40,373 --> 01:20:43,693
Speaker 2: about it, and as you can see two full pages,

1235
01:20:44,533 --> 01:20:47,613
Speaker 2: the political assassination of Charlie is not just an attack

1236
01:20:47,693 --> 01:20:50,933
Speaker 2: upon him. It is an attack on the good citizens

1237
01:20:50,973 --> 01:20:53,693
Speaker 2: of the USA and the world. It's an attack on

1238
01:20:53,893 --> 01:20:57,413
Speaker 2: freedom of speech and non partisan ownership of the public square.

1239
01:20:57,653 --> 01:21:00,493
Speaker 2: I was deeply sorrowfuled by his loss and felt very

1240
01:21:00,533 --> 01:21:03,853
Speaker 2: deeply sad because of it, as if he was my

1241
01:21:03,973 --> 01:21:07,693
Speaker 2: own family member. I'm still in mourning. I was initially

1242
01:21:07,733 --> 01:21:10,933
Speaker 2: surprised by the extent and sheer number of people mourning

1243
01:21:10,973 --> 01:21:13,813
Speaker 2: his death, not just in the conservative lane but also

1244
01:21:13,813 --> 01:21:16,413
Speaker 2: from the left, But as I had more time to

1245
01:21:16,453 --> 01:21:19,733
Speaker 2: think about it, I was not that surprised because his

1246
01:21:19,853 --> 01:21:22,533
Speaker 2: death represents what is wrong with the world in general.

1247
01:21:23,253 --> 01:21:25,813
Speaker 2: Many people on both sides of politics have sensed the

1248
01:21:25,893 --> 01:21:29,653
Speaker 2: serious precedents set by the actions of the misinformed and

1249
01:21:29,773 --> 01:21:33,933
Speaker 2: misguided shooter. Most people seem to understand that this precedent

1250
01:21:34,093 --> 01:21:37,333
Speaker 2: could be bad for everyone. Both sides of the political

1251
01:21:37,333 --> 01:21:40,973
Speaker 2: spectrum mostly still want to feel safe when they express

1252
01:21:41,013 --> 01:21:45,733
Speaker 2: their beliefs, their dislikes, their feelings about issues, and so forth. Unfortunately,

1253
01:21:45,933 --> 01:21:50,453
Speaker 2: this event has also revealed a very terrible truth. There

1254
01:21:50,453 --> 01:21:53,253
Speaker 2: are some among us who seem to have no conscience

1255
01:21:53,293 --> 01:21:57,053
Speaker 2: about his death, celebrating like it was a gold medal

1256
01:21:57,093 --> 01:22:01,213
Speaker 2: win in the Olympics. They're so cold and disconnected from

1257
01:22:01,293 --> 01:22:05,533
Speaker 2: any decency, respect, compassion, or sympathy for any suffering. The

1258
01:22:05,573 --> 01:22:09,813
Speaker 2: family friends and supporters of Charlie Kirk and gloat over

1259
01:22:09,853 --> 01:22:14,213
Speaker 2: their suffering. I quickly discovered that with such cold, disconnected people,

1260
01:22:14,253 --> 01:22:18,093
Speaker 2: there is no reaching them. Whether they're family, friends, colleagues,

1261
01:22:18,173 --> 01:22:21,013
Speaker 2: or strangers, whoever they may be. There is a common

1262
01:22:21,093 --> 01:22:24,733
Speaker 2: pattern that I recognize that defines them. They are clueless

1263
01:22:25,413 --> 01:22:28,613
Speaker 2: always in every case, they make claims that are completely

1264
01:22:28,653 --> 01:22:31,733
Speaker 2: false because they're not able to use truth and facts

1265
01:22:31,733 --> 01:22:34,973
Speaker 2: to justify their claims. When the truth or facts are

1266
01:22:34,973 --> 01:22:38,293
Speaker 2: presented to them, they'll not believe it, but will explain

1267
01:22:38,333 --> 01:22:43,493
Speaker 2: away those facts with more inventions of fake scenarios or possibilities,

1268
01:22:44,173 --> 01:22:47,573
Speaker 2: or they will simply wipe the slate of their minds

1269
01:22:47,693 --> 01:22:52,853
Speaker 2: and start on something else they erroneously construct. They literally

1270
01:22:52,933 --> 01:22:57,173
Speaker 2: live in a complete world of fantasy that doesn't exist

1271
01:22:57,493 --> 01:23:00,413
Speaker 2: in reality. Now that's the verse page. Let me cut

1272
01:23:00,453 --> 01:23:03,293
Speaker 2: to the last couple of paragraphs. I would expect that

1273
01:23:03,333 --> 01:23:06,973
Speaker 2: the shooter feel superior to Charlie Kirk, though the imagined

1274
01:23:07,013 --> 01:23:10,213
Speaker 2: immortality he thinks he is guilty of is not as

1275
01:23:10,253 --> 01:23:14,093
Speaker 2: serious as the murder he committed. Those who celebrate Charlie's

1276
01:23:14,173 --> 01:23:17,893
Speaker 2: murder are in the same frame of mind. They will

1277
01:23:17,933 --> 01:23:22,133
Speaker 2: point out the fascist people, their evil right wing ideals,

1278
01:23:23,253 --> 01:23:26,733
Speaker 2: and their alleged bigotry as if it is worse than murder.

1279
01:23:27,253 --> 01:23:29,213
Speaker 2: I have vowed not to labor for such people for

1280
01:23:29,293 --> 01:23:32,933
Speaker 2: my own sake, I'm taking action to omit these people

1281
01:23:32,933 --> 01:23:37,053
Speaker 2: from my life as of today, including family members. This

1282
01:23:37,093 --> 01:23:39,813
Speaker 2: event has shown me who these people are. The world

1283
01:23:39,933 --> 01:23:42,933
Speaker 2: now knows who these people are and what they are.

1284
01:23:43,693 --> 01:23:47,653
Speaker 2: This realization seems to be non partisan. Many Democrats in

1285
01:23:47,693 --> 01:23:51,653
Speaker 2: the US are abandoning their party because of the atrocious

1286
01:23:51,653 --> 01:23:56,573
Speaker 2: behavior of their former compadres. Some of these disgusting people

1287
01:23:56,613 --> 01:23:59,733
Speaker 2: are losing their jobs, losing family and friends. But will

1288
01:23:59,773 --> 01:24:04,173
Speaker 2: that be enough. I'm not so sure. He concludes, whatever happens,

1289
01:24:04,653 --> 01:24:07,493
Speaker 2: this seems to be a pivotal moment in history, and

1290
01:24:07,573 --> 01:24:09,853
Speaker 2: people of all war box of life appear to sense it.

1291
01:24:10,493 --> 01:24:13,533
Speaker 2: There is a new, more defined division happening in the

1292
01:24:13,573 --> 01:24:17,093
Speaker 2: world as we speak. Thanks for your time, Nathan.

1293
01:24:18,653 --> 01:24:18,933
Speaker 3: Leaden.

1294
01:24:19,013 --> 01:24:21,973
Speaker 6: Jill says, I was so thrilled to read Christian was

1295
01:24:22,013 --> 01:24:24,733
Speaker 6: going to be on the podcast. To have forgotten to

1296
01:24:24,773 --> 01:24:27,453
Speaker 6: write and thank you does not reflect my huge thanks

1297
01:24:27,493 --> 01:24:30,893
Speaker 6: to you both. Huge congratulations to Christian for winning the

1298
01:24:30,933 --> 01:24:35,053
Speaker 6: award for the category of his podcast. I was horrified

1299
01:24:35,093 --> 01:24:38,253
Speaker 6: to listen to some negative tool poppy comments. It points

1300
01:24:38,293 --> 01:24:41,453
Speaker 6: out how ignorant some people are. My husband and I

1301
01:24:41,533 --> 01:24:44,533
Speaker 6: arrived in London in nineteen seventy three for a couple

1302
01:24:44,533 --> 01:24:47,333
Speaker 6: of years. The first flat we looked at was in Brixton,

1303
01:24:47,573 --> 01:24:50,213
Speaker 6: which even in those days was a very mixed population.

1304
01:24:50,773 --> 01:24:52,853
Speaker 6: I'm so very sorry to hear about your son in

1305
01:24:52,893 --> 01:24:56,693
Speaker 6: law's dreadful accident. Having been a travel agent, I've heard

1306
01:24:56,693 --> 01:25:00,373
Speaker 6: some dreadful stories, but that is the worst. I wish

1307
01:25:00,413 --> 01:25:03,093
Speaker 6: him a full recovery. Jill, thank you so much. He

1308
01:25:03,333 --> 01:25:06,013
Speaker 6: is getting better by the day. Were pleased to say.

1309
01:25:06,013 --> 01:25:08,293
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jill, as I think I said last week, something

1310
01:25:08,373 --> 01:25:11,973
Speaker 2: along the lines of the two youngsters, well, they're in

1311
01:25:12,053 --> 01:25:17,213
Speaker 2: their early thirties. The two early thirties took on the

1312
01:25:17,253 --> 01:25:21,173
Speaker 2: top rate of insurance based on something that happened last

1313
01:25:21,293 --> 01:25:23,653
Speaker 2: year when they were traveling, which was nothing to do

1314
01:25:23,733 --> 01:25:28,853
Speaker 2: with nitthing physical, and as a result benefited from it.

1315
01:25:28,853 --> 01:25:32,693
Speaker 2: It's just that the public system in Greece was a shocker,

1316
01:25:33,013 --> 01:25:36,373
Speaker 2: so we won't bother with that anymore. And the result

1317
01:25:36,493 --> 01:25:39,253
Speaker 2: was that once he got to Athens, he went into

1318
01:25:39,293 --> 01:25:43,133
Speaker 2: a private hospital and got superb attention, and his recovery

1319
01:25:43,253 --> 01:25:44,413
Speaker 2: is proving that to be so.

1320
01:25:45,093 --> 01:25:48,693
Speaker 5: And the lesson learned is pay whatever you have to

1321
01:25:48,933 --> 01:25:49,493
Speaker 5: for the.

1322
01:25:49,373 --> 01:25:51,653
Speaker 2: Insurance, don't short change yourself.

1323
01:25:51,693 --> 01:25:53,293
Speaker 5: And we paid a fortune, didn't we.

1324
01:25:53,333 --> 01:25:55,373
Speaker 2: Is it interesting the number of people, not a lot,

1325
01:25:55,453 --> 01:25:57,933
Speaker 2: but a few who have told us since how they've

1326
01:25:58,213 --> 01:26:01,253
Speaker 2: done the same thing up to their insurance, and they're

1327
01:26:01,293 --> 01:26:02,853
Speaker 2: so glad they did well.

1328
01:26:02,853 --> 01:26:06,093
Speaker 6: I was telling the story recently to somebody I know,

1329
01:26:06,613 --> 01:26:09,693
Speaker 6: and she regave a story that had happened in her

1330
01:26:09,773 --> 01:26:15,293
Speaker 6: own family about thirty years ago, where the young man

1331
01:26:16,093 --> 01:26:20,453
Speaker 6: didn't have insurance and it cost her family very dearly

1332
01:26:21,293 --> 01:26:24,813
Speaker 6: and their parents who had to fork out for their child.

1333
01:26:25,613 --> 01:26:28,093
Speaker 6: The bank balance certainly wasn't the same anyway.

1334
01:26:28,213 --> 01:26:32,293
Speaker 2: No, and the physical damage was long lasting. That was

1335
01:26:32,333 --> 01:26:35,973
Speaker 2: a real sad So thank you. We'll let's see you

1336
01:26:36,013 --> 01:26:36,693
Speaker 2: again next week.

1337
01:26:36,813 --> 01:26:37,693
Speaker 5: Thank you.

1338
01:26:37,693 --> 01:26:55,973
Speaker 2: You will excellent. I don't forget if you'd like to

1339
01:26:56,093 --> 01:26:58,853
Speaker 2: write to us Latent at newstalk ZIB dot co dot

1340
01:26:58,933 --> 01:27:03,333
Speaker 2: nz or Carolyn at newstalk ZIB dot co dot Nz.

1341
01:27:03,933 --> 01:27:06,133
Speaker 2: It's always good if you can get your email in

1342
01:27:06,213 --> 01:27:10,653
Speaker 2: by Tuesday morning at the latest, well thereabouts lunchtime Tuesday,

1343
01:27:12,053 --> 01:27:17,453
Speaker 2: because we've taken to recording it on Tuesday afternoon. Now.

1344
01:27:17,853 --> 01:27:21,653
Speaker 2: The reason I wanted to mention your correspondence is because

1345
01:27:21,693 --> 01:27:24,893
Speaker 2: I want to make a brief comment on a matter

1346
01:27:25,613 --> 01:27:28,533
Speaker 2: that some of you will want to respond to. That

1347
01:27:28,653 --> 01:27:32,773
Speaker 2: is the death penalty. Is the death penalty warranted in

1348
01:27:32,893 --> 01:27:36,893
Speaker 2: any circumstance? The answer is, how could you say it's not.

1349
01:27:38,213 --> 01:27:42,773
Speaker 2: It depends on the circumstance or the circumstances. If there

1350
01:27:42,853 --> 01:27:47,333
Speaker 2: is no question about something that somebody has done, if

1351
01:27:47,333 --> 01:27:51,173
Speaker 2: it's simply a fact undeniable, how can you argue against

1352
01:27:51,173 --> 01:27:54,253
Speaker 2: the death penalty if that person has taken another life,

1353
01:27:54,533 --> 01:27:57,293
Speaker 2: and so we have it, and in this particular situation,

1354
01:27:57,533 --> 01:28:00,533
Speaker 2: already of course, you've had all on Sundry calling for

1355
01:28:00,573 --> 01:28:02,933
Speaker 2: the death penalty in Utah. By the way, did you

1356
01:28:03,013 --> 01:28:06,933
Speaker 2: know that the death penalty in Utah is legitimately a

1357
01:28:06,973 --> 01:28:10,413
Speaker 2: firing squad. I'm not sure whether that's the only method

1358
01:28:10,453 --> 01:28:12,453
Speaker 2: they use, but it's still in play, and I think

1359
01:28:12,493 --> 01:28:15,173
Speaker 2: the last I think I read the last one was

1360
01:28:15,653 --> 01:28:18,333
Speaker 2: in twenty ten, so it hasn't been for a while.

1361
01:28:19,253 --> 01:28:21,893
Speaker 2: But in this particular case, you'd say, at this point,

1362
01:28:21,973 --> 01:28:23,733
Speaker 2: would you not, even if you want to throw the

1363
01:28:23,773 --> 01:28:27,853
Speaker 2: word allegedly in somewhere that it's some cut and dried

1364
01:28:29,133 --> 01:28:32,173
Speaker 2: now there will be a defense, of course, and the

1365
01:28:32,253 --> 01:28:36,533
Speaker 2: defense will be something to do with psychology, undoubtedly, But

1366
01:28:36,813 --> 01:28:40,053
Speaker 2: I don't think there is a defense in this particular case.

1367
01:28:40,413 --> 01:28:42,973
Speaker 2: And if you don't, if you don't draw the line,

1368
01:28:43,053 --> 01:28:46,373
Speaker 2: if you do not commit people to punishments that they

1369
01:28:46,933 --> 01:28:51,533
Speaker 2: justly deserve, it's another input into why you have a

1370
01:28:51,573 --> 01:28:54,293
Speaker 2: problem with law and order in the United States or

1371
01:28:54,293 --> 01:28:57,093
Speaker 2: any country for that matter. Now, having got that off

1372
01:28:57,133 --> 01:29:00,853
Speaker 2: my chest, let me quote you something from Michael Snyder's substack,

1373
01:29:01,853 --> 01:29:05,173
Speaker 2: which I get delivered into my box. I'm not a subscriber,

1374
01:29:05,213 --> 01:29:08,653
Speaker 2: but I have a look at his opinions over his

1375
01:29:08,853 --> 01:29:13,973
Speaker 2: driving forces. There is no question that his logic is

1376
01:29:14,173 --> 01:29:18,133
Speaker 2: very very good, far better than some people depending on

1377
01:29:18,173 --> 01:29:21,773
Speaker 2: the subject matter. Our society has produced a lost generation

1378
01:29:21,893 --> 01:29:25,653
Speaker 2: that does not have any hope. How can we possibly

1379
01:29:25,733 --> 01:29:29,053
Speaker 2: undo the severe, long term damage that's been done to

1380
01:29:29,133 --> 01:29:31,413
Speaker 2: an entire generation of young people over the course of

1381
01:29:31,453 --> 01:29:35,453
Speaker 2: several decades. One of the most powerful pieces of evidence

1382
01:29:35,533 --> 01:29:38,333
Speaker 2: that our society is a failure is the fact that

1383
01:29:38,373 --> 01:29:42,453
Speaker 2: we have produced a lost generation of young adults that

1384
01:29:42,613 --> 01:29:45,653
Speaker 2: does not have any hope. We shipped most of them

1385
01:29:45,693 --> 01:29:48,413
Speaker 2: off to public schools where they're trained to believe that

1386
01:29:48,813 --> 01:29:51,933
Speaker 2: they came from monkeys. There is no purpose to their lives,

1387
01:29:52,133 --> 01:29:54,093
Speaker 2: and when they die, nothing waits for them. On the

1388
01:29:54,093 --> 01:29:58,693
Speaker 2: other side, this sick philosophy is endlessly pounded into the

1389
01:29:58,733 --> 01:30:01,293
Speaker 2: heads of our young people, and many of those that

1390
01:30:01,333 --> 01:30:04,213
Speaker 2: have adopted it have come to the conclusion that they

1391
01:30:04,253 --> 01:30:07,613
Speaker 2: may as well live as hedonistically as they can while

1392
01:30:07,613 --> 01:30:11,293
Speaker 2: they're here. Of course, that doesn't give them any meaning

1393
01:30:11,453 --> 01:30:14,013
Speaker 2: or purpose eye them, and so a lot of them

1394
01:30:14,173 --> 01:30:18,533
Speaker 2: end up sort of drifting through life seeking anything that

1395
01:30:18,573 --> 01:30:22,093
Speaker 2: can fill the painful emptiness they feel inside. It isn't

1396
01:30:22,133 --> 01:30:24,613
Speaker 2: really a mystery why so many of our young people

1397
01:30:24,653 --> 01:30:29,053
Speaker 2: have gone completely insane. Our modern liberal society urges them

1398
01:30:29,053 --> 01:30:32,053
Speaker 2: to constantly chase after things that will never satisfy them.

1399
01:30:32,653 --> 01:30:36,453
Speaker 2: As a result, we have a national epidemic of loneliness,

1400
01:30:36,733 --> 01:30:40,333
Speaker 2: a national epidemic of depression, and a national epidemic of

1401
01:30:40,573 --> 01:30:46,493
Speaker 2: drug abuse, and a national epidemic of suicide. A young

1402
01:30:46,533 --> 01:30:50,293
Speaker 2: people are offered one hamster wheel after another, each time

1403
01:30:50,333 --> 01:30:54,093
Speaker 2: they're told that if they'll just run hard enough, they

1404
01:30:54,133 --> 01:30:58,133
Speaker 2: will finally be happy. Of course, that never actually happens.

1405
01:30:58,893 --> 01:31:02,573
Speaker 2: It all starts in the public schools. Parents send their

1406
01:31:02,653 --> 01:31:04,973
Speaker 2: children to these schools believing that they will receive a

1407
01:31:05,093 --> 01:31:08,173
Speaker 2: quality education. But the truth is that the quality of

1408
01:31:08,493 --> 01:31:12,653
Speaker 2: education in our public schools just keeps getting worse. And

1409
01:31:12,693 --> 01:31:15,133
Speaker 2: did I mention this was America? Of course? Did I

1410
01:31:15,213 --> 01:31:19,333
Speaker 2: need to. The reading and math scores of twelfth graders

1411
01:31:19,693 --> 01:31:22,693
Speaker 2: have plunged to their lowest level in over twenty years.

1412
01:31:23,133 --> 01:31:25,973
Speaker 2: The scores, part of a test from the National Assessment

1413
01:31:26,013 --> 01:31:30,133
Speaker 2: of Education Progress, showed that average reading score for twelfth

1414
01:31:30,133 --> 01:31:35,253
Speaker 2: graders dropped to the lowest level since the NAP first

1415
01:31:35,293 --> 01:31:40,253
Speaker 2: administered the reading assessment in nineteen ninety two. The average

1416
01:31:40,293 --> 01:31:43,493
Speaker 2: score for twelfth graders in math in twenty twenty four

1417
01:31:43,613 --> 01:31:46,413
Speaker 2: was the lowest since two thousand and five, when the

1418
01:31:46,453 --> 01:31:52,013
Speaker 2: math assessment framework changed significantly. He writes, I went to

1419
01:31:52,013 --> 01:31:54,973
Speaker 2: public schools all the way through high school, and then

1420
01:31:55,013 --> 01:31:57,893
Speaker 2: I attended two public universities for a total of eight years.

1421
01:31:58,453 --> 01:32:01,853
Speaker 2: The quality of the education that I received was a joke.

1422
01:32:03,213 --> 01:32:06,493
Speaker 2: The entire system is a fraud. It is about time

1423
01:32:06,533 --> 01:32:10,373
Speaker 2: that we all finally admit that the Emperor does not

1424
01:32:10,493 --> 01:32:13,933
Speaker 2: have any clothes on. But what our public schools are

1425
01:32:13,933 --> 01:32:18,133
Speaker 2: good at is in doctrinating young minds. For example, just

1426
01:32:18,253 --> 01:32:22,693
Speaker 2: consider what's been happening in the state of Maryland. And

1427
01:32:22,733 --> 01:32:25,493
Speaker 2: before I get there, you might remember that Maryland has

1428
01:32:26,133 --> 01:32:28,733
Speaker 2: one of the highest crime rates in the USA. And

1429
01:32:28,773 --> 01:32:33,573
Speaker 2: it's right attached to Washington d C. Schools of subverting

1430
01:32:33,613 --> 01:32:37,333
Speaker 2: students mental health by endlessly hectoring them to doubt or

1431
01:32:37,373 --> 01:32:41,453
Speaker 2: despise their own bodies. These school antics reached epidemic level

1432
01:32:42,173 --> 01:32:45,453
Speaker 2: even before the start of the COVID pandemic. In twenty nineteen,

1433
01:32:45,493 --> 01:32:49,813
Speaker 2: the state of Maryland issued regulations to promote viewing each

1434
01:32:50,013 --> 01:32:56,413
Speaker 2: student's gender, identity and expression as valuable. The government officials

1435
01:32:56,413 --> 01:33:02,333
Speaker 2: and political appointees arrogated to themselves the prerogative to redefine gender.

1436
01:33:02,533 --> 01:33:06,013
Speaker 2: In the state of Maryland, Montgomery County, the larger school

1437
01:33:06,053 --> 01:33:09,133
Speaker 2: system in the state, announced that it would choose books

1438
01:33:09,173 --> 01:33:15,053
Speaker 2: for the curriculum through an LGBTQ plus lens and ask

1439
01:33:15,133 --> 01:33:20,413
Speaker 2: whether the books reinforced or disrupted stereotypes, cys, normativity, and

1440
01:33:20,653 --> 01:33:23,813
Speaker 2: power hierarchies. According to a brief filed at the Supreme

1441
01:33:23,853 --> 01:33:27,773
Speaker 2: Court by parents who successfully challenged the school system. That

1442
01:33:27,893 --> 01:33:31,853
Speaker 2: brief also noted that teachers are told to frame disagreement

1443
01:33:31,973 --> 01:33:37,813
Speaker 2: with pro LGBTQ ideas as hurtful and to counter with

1444
01:33:38,013 --> 01:33:40,773
Speaker 2: examples of men who paint their nails or wear dresses.

1445
01:33:41,333 --> 01:33:45,213
Speaker 2: The gold is to instill in children a new perspective

1446
01:33:45,333 --> 01:33:49,373
Speaker 2: not easily contravened by their parents. As the school board admitted,

1447
01:33:49,733 --> 01:33:52,893
Speaker 2: the introduction produced a five hundred and eighty two percent

1448
01:33:53,053 --> 01:33:56,053
Speaker 2: increase in the number of kids self identifying as non

1449
01:33:56,093 --> 01:34:01,093
Speaker 2: binary in Montgomery County schools. Disrupting children's thinking has been

1450
01:34:01,413 --> 01:34:05,733
Speaker 2: so successful that almost half the students identified themselves as

1451
01:34:06,293 --> 01:34:10,853
Speaker 2: non binary. Sadly, most parents have no idea what is

1452
01:34:10,973 --> 01:34:15,373
Speaker 2: really going on in these schools. They just assume that

1453
01:34:15,373 --> 01:34:17,613
Speaker 2: their kids are being prepared for life in the real world,

1454
01:34:17,773 --> 01:34:22,293
Speaker 2: but instead they're having leftist values systematically shoved down their throats.

1455
01:34:22,773 --> 01:34:25,973
Speaker 2: Needless to say, it gets even worse at the next level.

1456
01:34:26,053 --> 01:34:29,373
Speaker 2: Our colleges and universities are completely and utterly dominated by

1457
01:34:29,493 --> 01:34:37,173
Speaker 2: radical leftists. And that's where I'll leave that particular advisory. Now,

1458
01:34:37,213 --> 01:34:41,013
Speaker 2: if that depressed, you don't go anywhere, because we might

1459
01:34:41,053 --> 01:34:43,573
Speaker 2: do a bit of lifting. Now, this was published on

1460
01:34:43,613 --> 01:34:47,133
Speaker 2: the first of September, so it's very current. The value

1461
01:34:47,253 --> 01:34:51,093
Speaker 2: of thinking deeply why your education should be about more

1462
01:34:51,293 --> 01:34:55,813
Speaker 2: than a paycheck. Now, I'm going to relate this to

1463
01:34:56,293 --> 01:34:59,853
Speaker 2: situation here in New Zealand, but this is from Campion

1464
01:35:00,653 --> 01:35:05,573
Speaker 2: College in Australia, which is I gather pretty new. At

1465
01:35:05,613 --> 01:35:08,973
Speaker 2: some point every student faces the question. It comes from

1466
01:35:09,013 --> 01:35:13,013
Speaker 2: well meaning parents, teachers, and even friends. So what are

1467
01:35:13,013 --> 01:35:16,373
Speaker 2: you going to do with that? If you're drawn to

1468
01:35:16,453 --> 01:35:21,293
Speaker 2: studying history, literature, philosophy or theology, you've probably heard it

1469
01:35:21,573 --> 01:35:26,293
Speaker 2: more than once, sometimes with genuine curiosity, sometimes with thinly

1470
01:35:26,413 --> 01:35:30,853
Speaker 2: veiled skepticism. The underlying message is clear, education should be

1471
01:35:30,853 --> 01:35:34,293
Speaker 2: a stepping stone to a stable, high paying job. Anything

1472
01:35:34,373 --> 01:35:38,213
Speaker 2: else is a luxury. It's easy to see why. In

1473
01:35:38,293 --> 01:35:42,613
Speaker 2: today's world, career paths are mapped out early, and universities

1474
01:35:42,693 --> 01:35:46,813
Speaker 2: often market degrees as direct pipelines to employment. A agree

1475
01:35:46,853 --> 01:35:50,013
Speaker 2: that does not lead to a clear job title can

1476
01:35:50,093 --> 01:35:55,373
Speaker 2: feel risky, even indulgent. But is that really all education

1477
01:35:55,533 --> 01:35:58,333
Speaker 2: is meant to be? What if university wasn't just about

1478
01:35:58,333 --> 01:36:02,613
Speaker 2: getting a job, but about shaping how you think. What

1479
01:36:02,653 --> 01:36:06,213
Speaker 2: if the true value of your education wasn't just in

1480
01:36:06,253 --> 01:36:09,773
Speaker 2: the paycheck it's secured, but in the way it prepared

1481
01:36:09,813 --> 01:36:15,533
Speaker 2: you for a lifetime of curiosity, adaptability, and meaning. At

1482
01:36:15,613 --> 01:36:19,373
Speaker 2: Campian College, we believe that deep thinking is not just

1483
01:36:19,413 --> 01:36:25,413
Speaker 2: a luxury, it's essential. In this post, we'll explore why

1484
01:36:25,613 --> 01:36:30,133
Speaker 2: an education rooted in big ideas and critical thought is

1485
01:36:30,173 --> 01:36:33,253
Speaker 2: not only fulfilling, but also a powerful advantage in today's

1486
01:36:33,373 --> 01:36:36,533
Speaker 2: unpredictable world. We live in a world that moves fast.

1487
01:36:36,973 --> 01:36:41,493
Speaker 2: New industries emerge overnight, automation reshapes the job market, and

1488
01:36:41,773 --> 01:36:45,653
Speaker 2: entire career paths disappear within a decade. In this rapidly

1489
01:36:45,733 --> 01:36:49,813
Speaker 2: changing landscape, universities often respond by doubling down on job

1490
01:36:49,853 --> 01:36:55,013
Speaker 2: training and pushing students toward degrees that promise immediate employment.

1491
01:36:55,933 --> 01:37:00,173
Speaker 2: But here's the problem. Technical schools can become outdated. The

1492
01:37:00,253 --> 01:37:04,893
Speaker 2: most valuable employees in the most successful people are not

1493
01:37:05,053 --> 01:37:09,053
Speaker 2: those who learned one specific task in university. They're the

1494
01:37:09,093 --> 01:37:13,693
Speaker 2: ones who can think critically, solve complex problems, and adapt

1495
01:37:13,973 --> 01:37:20,053
Speaker 2: to whatever comes next. This is why deep interdisciplinary thinking matters.

1496
01:37:20,853 --> 01:37:25,733
Speaker 2: The ability to connect ideas across history, literature, philosophy and

1497
01:37:25,813 --> 01:37:31,693
Speaker 2: theology is not just intellectual fluff. It's what allows people

1498
01:37:31,733 --> 01:37:37,933
Speaker 2: to understand human behavior, navigate ethical dilemmas, and make decisions

1499
01:37:37,933 --> 01:37:40,893
Speaker 2: that stand the test of time. There I desert this

1500
01:37:41,533 --> 01:37:45,213
Speaker 2: piece because it goes on for three times as long

1501
01:37:45,213 --> 01:37:48,573
Speaker 2: as I've read, but you get the picture. If you

1502
01:37:49,053 --> 01:37:54,413
Speaker 2: want to find it, Campion dot edu dot au is

1503
01:37:54,413 --> 01:37:57,733
Speaker 2: where you'll find it. The value of thinking deeply. Campion

1504
01:37:58,333 --> 01:38:02,613
Speaker 2: dot edu dot Au. Now it is in the western

1505
01:38:02,653 --> 01:38:06,773
Speaker 2: suburbs of Sydney, but it's full of ideas, and I

1506
01:38:06,813 --> 01:38:08,973
Speaker 2: know that there are schools in this country doing the same.

1507
01:38:10,013 --> 01:38:13,093
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter where they are or who they are.

1508
01:38:13,333 --> 01:38:16,013
Speaker 2: If they're taking an approach like this, that's where your

1509
01:38:16,093 --> 01:38:18,733
Speaker 2: kids belong. Now. I said at the beginning that I

1510
01:38:18,773 --> 01:38:20,693
Speaker 2: was going to connect it to something here in New Zealand.

1511
01:38:21,173 --> 01:38:26,173
Speaker 2: I remember years ago, in fact, decades ago, when Bob Jones,

1512
01:38:26,613 --> 01:38:30,013
Speaker 2: as in Sir Robert Jones, would tell all in Sundry

1513
01:38:30,013 --> 01:38:32,773
Speaker 2: that the only people he was interested in picking up

1514
01:38:32,813 --> 01:38:37,613
Speaker 2: out of out of university were people who had done

1515
01:38:38,013 --> 01:38:42,133
Speaker 2: just those subjects that were mentioned a moment back, philosophy

1516
01:38:42,453 --> 01:38:47,973
Speaker 2: and history and psychology maybe other things. Why because they

1517
01:38:48,053 --> 01:38:51,453
Speaker 2: knew how to think. I've never forgotten that they knew

1518
01:38:51,493 --> 01:38:55,813
Speaker 2: how to think. Others didn't. They were restricted, restricted by

1519
01:38:56,333 --> 01:38:59,453
Speaker 2: the narrowness of the degree that they got, which is

1520
01:38:59,493 --> 01:39:02,053
Speaker 2: really quite extraordinary when you think about it. But then

1521
01:39:02,093 --> 01:39:04,173
Speaker 2: on the other hand, it does make a lot of sense.

1522
01:39:04,853 --> 01:39:08,333
Speaker 2: So I'd be very interested to know whether that same

1523
01:39:08,373 --> 01:39:12,893
Speaker 2: approach is employed these days by employee, especially big companies.

1524
01:39:13,413 --> 01:39:16,293
Speaker 2: So that takes us out for podcasts number three hundred

1525
01:39:16,453 --> 01:39:20,333
Speaker 2: and two. Let me repeat if you'd like to correspond

1526
01:39:20,493 --> 01:39:23,693
Speaker 2: Latent at NEWSTALKSV dot co dot nzd or Carolyn at

1527
01:39:23,773 --> 01:39:29,973
Speaker 2: the same address NEWSTALKSB dot co dot nz which leaves

1528
01:39:29,973 --> 01:39:34,053
Speaker 2: me only to say thank you for listening and we'll

1529
01:39:34,093 --> 01:39:34,573
Speaker 2: talk soon.

1530
01:39:42,373 --> 01:39:46,333
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talks EDB. Listen live

1531
01:39:46,493 --> 01:39:49,213
Speaker 1: on air or online and keep our shows with you

1532
01:39:49,293 --> 01:39:52,293
Speaker 1: wherever you go. With our podcasts on iHeartRadio.