WEBVTT - Abuse in Care survivors face years‑long delays under current redress processes

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<v Speaker 1>Kilda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,

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<v Speaker 1>a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. Church

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<v Speaker 1>leaders are continuing to publicly apologize to survivors of abuse.

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<v Speaker 1>The Presbyterian Church is the latest to address it in

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<v Speaker 1>two public apology events. The first was in Dunedin at

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<v Speaker 1>the weekend and the next is in Auckland this Saturday.

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<v Speaker 1>It's the latest in a series of public apologies from

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<v Speaker 1>church and public sector leaders after the Royal Commission of

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<v Speaker 1>an Inquiry into abuse in care. Over five years of investigations,

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<v Speaker 1>the inquiry heard nearly three thousand survivor accounts of abuse

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<v Speaker 1>and neglect. The more than one hundred and thirty recommendations

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<v Speaker 1>focused on creating a new independence redress system, strengthening the

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<v Speaker 1>care system, and holding institutions accountable. Today on the Front Page,

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<v Speaker 1>lawyer Amanda Hill has represented abusing care survivors and it's

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<v Speaker 1>with us to explain how the process is working and

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<v Speaker 1>how it's not. First off, Amanda, tell me how you

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<v Speaker 1>think the redress scheme is going so far?

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<v Speaker 2>Well? I guess one of the challenges is that there's

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<v Speaker 2>no single redress game. There are many different schemes some good,

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<v Speaker 2>some bad, some ugly. There is a lot of talk

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<v Speaker 2>and work her own redress, but there's a big gaping

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<v Speaker 2>hole in the middle, and that's the government's decision not

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<v Speaker 2>to proceed with the Royal Commission's key recommendations around independence game.

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<v Speaker 2>So if I were standing back and looking at the biggest,

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<v Speaker 2>biggest problem with redress or or the biggest lack of progress,

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<v Speaker 2>that would be the government decisions around that, and so

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<v Speaker 2>everything else sort of pales in comparison to that. But

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<v Speaker 2>I also acknowledged that there's organizations who are doing their

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<v Speaker 2>best without that government support.

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<v Speaker 1>So if that independence scheme would have gone ahead, it

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<v Speaker 1>would just be a blanket rule or a blanket thing

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<v Speaker 1>across all of them. But at the moment, what we've

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<v Speaker 1>got is different readress schemes for different institutions, and different

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<v Speaker 1>whether they be state based or faith based.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, So the idea behind the independent scheme, which the

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<v Speaker 2>Royal Commission called was to provide a sort of a

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<v Speaker 2>single scheme that dealt with abuse and state care, faith

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<v Speaker 2>based care, schools, everything, and that they would be buying

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<v Speaker 2>from faith based organizations so they'd become part of that scheme,

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<v Speaker 2>which meant that there was transparency, independence, accountability. Everyone knew

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<v Speaker 2>what the rules were, but with the decision not to

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<v Speaker 2>proceed with that, what the government's done is trying to

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<v Speaker 2>even up as the various processes within government which are

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<v Speaker 2>wildly inconsistent, and to trying to do a bit of

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<v Speaker 2>work inside their own house, but leaving faith based organizations

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<v Speaker 2>to forge your head on their own. So we still

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<v Speaker 2>have lots of different things going on.

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<v Speaker 1>Has the horse bolted in that respect? Is it too

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<v Speaker 1>late to put that in place now?

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<v Speaker 2>Not at all, Not at all. I think there will

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<v Speaker 2>always be an opportunity for a single independent scheme, and

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<v Speaker 2>the current situation in terms of state matters is very patchy,

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<v Speaker 2>but there will always be an opportunity to bring and

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<v Speaker 2>put it to me to a finally, so while we're

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<v Speaker 2>pretty gutted with the decisions right now, there will always

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<v Speaker 2>be work to try and bring that about.

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<v Speaker 1>What are some of the roadblocks that survivors are finding

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<v Speaker 1>themselves up against.

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<v Speaker 2>There is still, i think a real lack of belief

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<v Speaker 2>around the scale and nature of abuse and care. There

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<v Speaker 2>is still real difficulty around access to records. Although there's

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<v Speaker 2>been quite a lot of good work in that space,

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<v Speaker 2>there is still a real lack of understanding of what

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<v Speaker 2>good redress looks like. And in New Zealand the compensation

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<v Speaker 2>levels in particular punishingly low, and that's partly reflective of

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<v Speaker 2>the role of acc which means that you can't sue

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<v Speaker 2>for general or compensatory damages, but it is a really

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<v Speaker 2>the approach is often superficial, not always understanding what the

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<v Speaker 2>impact on survivors is, not understanding that abuse has lifelong impacts,

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<v Speaker 2>and just sort of thinking that a few pass or

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<v Speaker 2>something up and hand it over, that's done, whereas what

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<v Speaker 2>we know is that redress is a journey rather than

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<v Speaker 2>an event.

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<v Speaker 1>Budget twenty twenty five saw seven hundred and seventy four

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<v Speaker 1>million dollars put aside to improve the state abuse redress scheme.

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<v Speaker 3>Is that enough?

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<v Speaker 2>It's hard to tell because it really depends on where

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<v Speaker 2>that money is going. There is a backlog of claims

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<v Speaker 2>within the Administry of Social Development and Ministry of Education,

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<v Speaker 2>so some of that is just about getting work done

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<v Speaker 2>that hasn't been done yet. It's not necessarily about when

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<v Speaker 2>I say improving, they may not making people work wait

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<v Speaker 2>five years because that's the current wait time. And some

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<v Speaker 2>of it is lifting up some compensation which has been

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<v Speaker 2>very low, lifting them up to a slightly higher level.

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<v Speaker 2>So how that money is it has passed up is

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<v Speaker 2>probably I don't have the information around what that's been

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<v Speaker 2>applied to, but I know there have been top ups

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<v Speaker 2>for some people who have resolved their claims, particularly with

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<v Speaker 2>social development, that's been really good for them. But when

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<v Speaker 2>your top up sort of only takes you to a

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<v Speaker 2>reasonably low amount, that's still you know, when you stand

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<v Speaker 2>back and look at the bigger pictures, it's still pretty hard.

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<v Speaker 2>But there is I call it tinkering. I think a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of the work being done is tinkering. When you're

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<v Speaker 2>trying to improve something that's so badly broken, you sort

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<v Speaker 2>of go, well, what's the cost of just actually starting again?

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<v Speaker 1>And I mean one of the major questions to come

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<v Speaker 1>out of the inquiry as well, I suppose, is how

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<v Speaker 1>do you quantify someone's abuse?

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<v Speaker 2>And you can't. You can't. What you often hear from

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<v Speaker 2>particularly organizations where abuse has been perpetrated, is no amount

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<v Speaker 2>of money can fix this harm. But the end of

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<v Speaker 2>that sentence really needs to be but we'll give it

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<v Speaker 2>our best shot. And often that's not what's happening. And

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<v Speaker 2>so this thing of amount of money can fix the

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<v Speaker 2>harm means that they don't really put an effort and

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<v Speaker 2>to try you can't. There are some ways you can quantify,

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<v Speaker 2>and so when you look at things like assessing perhaps

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<v Speaker 2>someone's lost opportunity, lost wages, that the loss of potential

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<v Speaker 2>earning scheme through ACC is one of those measures we

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<v Speaker 2>look at. You know, have you been able to parents,

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<v Speaker 2>have you been able to hold down a job? Do

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<v Speaker 2>you have mental health, a drug, alcohol issues? Again, it

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<v Speaker 2>hard to quantify, but it has been done. You look

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<v Speaker 2>overseas and there are plenty of jurisdictions where it's been done.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's not like we're starting from scratch. There is

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<v Speaker 2>a whole jurisprudence around us.

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<v Speaker 1>How is it for survivors being able to access their

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<v Speaker 1>redress payments reliably? And you mentioned a five year wait

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<v Speaker 1>time at the moment, why is it taking so long?

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<v Speaker 2>Clartly? One of the challenges will always be with the

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<v Speaker 2>state processes is it is the state investigating itself? There

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<v Speaker 2>is it's MSD looking at you know, did its own

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<v Speaker 2>staff members cause harm? And there's not really any motivation

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<v Speaker 2>to do that quickly. So there's been a dragging of

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<v Speaker 2>feet over a long period of time, there have been

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<v Speaker 2>multiple changes to processes. There's been so many different ways

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<v Speaker 2>that redress has been administered, in some clunkier than others.

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<v Speaker 2>But really there's just not been the resourcing, the staffing,

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<v Speaker 2>or the motivation to resolve claims quickly, and so they're

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<v Speaker 2>built up because I think the state never realized or

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<v Speaker 2>recognized just how many victims there were, whereas the Royal

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<v Speaker 2>Commission was very clear that a huge number of people

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<v Speaker 2>in state and based care were of use.

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<v Speaker 1>One name that comes to mind when thinking about the inquiries,

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<v Speaker 1>of course, lake Alice. As of last month, Arenz reported

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<v Speaker 1>one hundred and forty one people have been ruled eligible

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<v Speaker 1>for the Lake Alice redress scheme, with one hundred and

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<v Speaker 1>two of those opting to receive a one hundred and

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<v Speaker 1>fifty thousand dollars payment. Some have decided to go to arbitration.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you explain to us what that means?

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<v Speaker 2>Sure? I guess. The first thing to note, though, is

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<v Speaker 2>that this Lake Alice process is limited to people who

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<v Speaker 2>were in the Child in Adolescent unit run by Doc

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<v Speaker 2>seven Leaks and who suffered ect in an unmodified format

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<v Speaker 2>lecterer of shock therapy or the use of a drug

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<v Speaker 2>called peraldehyde. So this is a very targeted group of

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<v Speaker 2>people rather than the larger group of Lake Alice or

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<v Speaker 2>other psychiatric institutions. So it's a it's a microcosm really,

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<v Speaker 2>and it came about because of the United Nations finding

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<v Speaker 2>that what happened there was torture met the definition of torture.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's the first thing. It's a smaller group the

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<v Speaker 2>process for those people either, but there's a pathway. Effectively,

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<v Speaker 2>arbitration doesn't mean something's failed. That means that they get

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<v Speaker 2>to choose. And so the first pathway, as you say,

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<v Speaker 2>a payment of one hundred and fifty thousand dollars. That's

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<v Speaker 2>an expedite in payment, so that happens quite quickly, and

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<v Speaker 2>that comes with an apology and some help with services

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<v Speaker 2>and things like that. If people want to take a

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<v Speaker 2>more individual approach, they and those meetings have occurred now

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<v Speaker 2>with an independent arbitrator who's a retired High Court judge,

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<v Speaker 2>and that means that they get to meet someone and

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<v Speaker 2>talk about their experiences and have a more personalized and

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<v Speaker 2>tailored approach, which suits some survivors they want to go

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<v Speaker 2>down that road. Others they and particularly this cohort. They're

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<v Speaker 2>often sick, they're very old, they need the money for

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<v Speaker 2>whatever reason, and digging through those memories is hard. So

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<v Speaker 2>this option of either a fairly fast approach recognizing that

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<v Speaker 2>you meet the eligibility criteria, or the arbitration where you

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<v Speaker 2>may receive a higher amount but you go through this

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<v Speaker 2>process that provides it some tailored options for survivors.

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<v Speaker 1>And I understand the deadline for the expedited pathway is tomorrow, Tuesday,

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<v Speaker 1>September thirtieth. What does this mean?

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<v Speaker 2>So my understanding is that because this was a time

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<v Speaker 2>limited process and that was a decision made by Cabinet,

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<v Speaker 2>that if someone hasn't registered with the Crown Response Unit

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<v Speaker 2>by the thirtieth of September, then that payment won't be

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<v Speaker 2>available to them. There's a couple of steps that need

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<v Speaker 2>to be taken to be eligible for that scheme. So yes,

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<v Speaker 2>there will come point where some people who haven't been

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<v Speaker 2>involved in that process may miss out.

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<v Speaker 1>That doesn't seem fair at all.

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<v Speaker 2>It isn't fair to the people who have been involved

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<v Speaker 2>in One of the challenges sometimes is that the expectation

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<v Speaker 2>that survivors will put their hand up to go through

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<v Speaker 2>this process and that they will have the ability to

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<v Speaker 2>engage within this case government. There's been a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>help given to survivors. Myself and other lawyers are appointed

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<v Speaker 2>as panel lawyers, and there's been some really good support provided.

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<v Speaker 2>But again they have to come to the scheme. The

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<v Speaker 2>scheme doesn't come to them. The state. They know the

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<v Speaker 2>names of the people who are in the child adolescent unit,

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<v Speaker 2>so there's no proactive reaching out to people. And that's

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<v Speaker 2>where the challenges lie. Because what we know is that

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<v Speaker 2>some of the people from the Callis are some of

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<v Speaker 2>the most damaged survivors that I've ever met, and they've

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<v Speaker 2>suffered so much harm and their ability to engage with

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<v Speaker 2>schemes to ring government is a scary thing when you've

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<v Speaker 2>been harmed so badly, and to re engage with government

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<v Speaker 2>and to put yourself in that position again is a

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<v Speaker 2>really hard thing. So there are real challenges around that.

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<v Speaker 1>And so if people haven't come forward, of those who

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<v Speaker 1>haven't come forward already as of tomorrow, is government kind

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<v Speaker 1>of relieved of any responsibility.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a really good question, and that's a bit of

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<v Speaker 2>an unknown to be honest, And I think if there

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<v Speaker 2>is another cohort of survivors you know, the Minister may

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<v Speaker 2>have to make some decisions there. Because this scheme is

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<v Speaker 2>running for a particular time, I cannot have designated that time.

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<v Speaker 2>The Arbat's job is is time limited. And what happens

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<v Speaker 2>after that, I think it remains to be seen, But

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<v Speaker 2>that may be a political decision more than anything else.

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<v Speaker 3>Today, I'm apologizing on behalf of the government to every

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<v Speaker 3>everyone who suffered abuse, harm and neglect while in state care.

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<v Speaker 3>To they make this apology to all survivors on behalf

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<v Speaker 3>of my own and previous governments. You deserved so much

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<v Speaker 3>better and I am deeply sorry that New Zealand did

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<v Speaker 3>not do better by you. I am sorry that you

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<v Speaker 3>were not believed when you came forward to report your abuse.

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<v Speaker 3>I am sorry that many bystanders, staff, volunteers and careers

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<v Speaker 3>turned a blind eye and failed to stop or report abuse.

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<v Speaker 1>I see that the Presbyterian Church is publicly apologizing in

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<v Speaker 1>Auckland this weekend. They did so on Dunedin last weekend,

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<v Speaker 1>and I've noticed the church use the phrase holistic redress.

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<v Speaker 1>Is that different to redress? Can you explain to me

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<v Speaker 1>what that means?

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<v Speaker 2>Sure? I think and that often means different things to

0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:07.800
<v Speaker 2>different organizations. So there's no single approach. But I guess

0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:12.840
<v Speaker 2>when we talk about redress it responds to all of

0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:18.120
<v Speaker 2>the harm rather than an element of redress is compensation.

0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:23.560
<v Speaker 2>It's money, but redress can also means an apology. It

0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:27.840
<v Speaker 2>also means making sure someone can access independent legal advice,

0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:35.800
<v Speaker 2>so often paying legal costs, counseling or other support. I

0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:40.000
<v Speaker 2>know for for some schemes, access to facilitators to help

0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:45.560
<v Speaker 2>you navigate your entitlements with ACC for example, ACC is

0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:50.360
<v Speaker 2>an enormous barrier for survivors. It's incredibly difficult to navigate

0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:58.000
<v Speaker 2>lifelong help with parenting or with all sorts of things.

0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:02.480
<v Speaker 2>So when I talk about redress or healing being a

0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:04.840
<v Speaker 2>journey rather than an event, that that's what I mean.

0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:09.359
<v Speaker 2>As supply of services over time is really really important.

0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:14.120
<v Speaker 1>And so the holistic part of it could mean any

0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:15.360
<v Speaker 1>range of things.

0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:22.240
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yeah, whatever, And this is what a good redress

0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:25.640
<v Speaker 2>responds to the survivor in front of view, That responds

0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:28.520
<v Speaker 2>to their needs and what they want, and it's a

0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:33.720
<v Speaker 2>conversation rather than going here's your money, see you later,

0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:37.880
<v Speaker 2>you're done. There is much more to be gained through

0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:41.520
<v Speaker 2>holistic redress than a fairly transactional approach.

0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:46.160
<v Speaker 1>Have any other faiths set up their own redress process

0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:48.360
<v Speaker 1>and if so, what do they look like? How do

0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:48.960
<v Speaker 1>they compare?

0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:54.040
<v Speaker 2>Different churches or faith based organizations have different processes and

0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:57.960
<v Speaker 2>have for many years. The Salvation Army has had a

0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:00.400
<v Speaker 2>process so many years and that was often run one

0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:03.960
<v Speaker 2>person out of the Salvation Army. Again, those challenges of

0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:08.920
<v Speaker 2>investigating your own people and the lack of independence there

0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:14.280
<v Speaker 2>during the Royal Commission. It caused some organizations to give

0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:18.800
<v Speaker 2>themselves a hard block and to revise what they were doing.

0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:23.800
<v Speaker 2>Some have done that better than others, but so every

0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:28.440
<v Speaker 2>organization has a different approach, and it's often in a

0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:32.800
<v Speaker 2>state of flux. So it's changing a great deal when

0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:36.399
<v Speaker 2>I think a lot of organizations were waiting for the

0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:40.080
<v Speaker 2>final report of the Royal Commission Fanikia, which was a

0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:45.159
<v Speaker 2>shot last year and to took a lot out of that,

0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:48.520
<v Speaker 2>but lots of them were waiting for the state to

0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:52.360
<v Speaker 2>implement an independent scheme and just had gone, right, we'll

0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:55.840
<v Speaker 2>hang in there until this is going to happen. And

0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:58.760
<v Speaker 2>now without that, I think they are looking at their

0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:02.600
<v Speaker 2>own schemes and making steps. That is a wide range

0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:05.040
<v Speaker 2>of responses and wide range of schemes.

0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:10.040
<v Speaker 1>How does the redress compare between state based and faith based?

0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:13.040
<v Speaker 1>Is it better on either side or do both sides

0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:15.000
<v Speaker 1>have kind of positives and negatives?

0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:18.240
<v Speaker 2>It varies wildly, And this is what I mean about

0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:22.200
<v Speaker 2>the lack of consistency. You know, there are some organizations

0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:25.520
<v Speaker 2>that sort of don't easily fit. So when I think

0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:29.159
<v Speaker 2>about really good redress schemes, you look at something like

0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:35.919
<v Speaker 2>deal With. Deal With School up in Auckland, there was

0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:39.879
<v Speaker 2>an independent inquiry and discovered in a culture of sexual

0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:44.800
<v Speaker 2>abuse at the school over many years, an extraordinary number

0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:47.560
<v Speaker 2>of boys in the school sexually abused over a long

0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:52.399
<v Speaker 2>period of time, and deal With instituted a process that

0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:56.240
<v Speaker 2>was independent of the school. And nothing's perfect, but it

0:18:56.359 --> 0:19:00.480
<v Speaker 2>was a pretty good process and the compensation paid by

0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:04.280
<v Speaker 2>deal Worth was far and away above anything that the

0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:08.600
<v Speaker 2>state had ever Often at the other end, some Catholic

0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:15.040
<v Speaker 2>orders very very limited redress, almost grudging, I think it

0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:18.840
<v Speaker 2>is probably a word to use, and other organizations not

0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:23.760
<v Speaker 2>engaging at all. So it's hard to compare because they're

0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:29.879
<v Speaker 2>so different. But to give you an example, someone who

0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:34.320
<v Speaker 2>had experienced sexual abuse a deal Worth could receive compensation

0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:38.040
<v Speaker 2>of so two hundred thousand dollars. Someone in state care

0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:42.000
<v Speaker 2>who had experienced the same abuse and potentially abuse for

0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:44.680
<v Speaker 2>a longer period of time might get thirty or forty

0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:47.960
<v Speaker 2>thousand dollars. That's what that difference looks like.

0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:52.320
<v Speaker 1>In terms of these institutions, I'm sure, and you've spoken

0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:55.680
<v Speaker 1>to a lot of survivors as well. Does it feel

0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:59.239
<v Speaker 1>like if we pay this person this lump sum, this

0:19:59.320 --> 0:19:59.800
<v Speaker 1>will all go.

0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:06.199
<v Speaker 2>I think it feels like that to some organizations. But

0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:10.080
<v Speaker 2>I think what I've seen over time is that when

0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:15.199
<v Speaker 2>people and often I've seen this and people coming and

0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:20.720
<v Speaker 2>new to some organizations, when they meet survivors and they

0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:25.080
<v Speaker 2>see them face to face and they hear what happened

0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:28.160
<v Speaker 2>to them, and they hear what their adult life has

0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:29.760
<v Speaker 2>been like, and that you know, a lot of my

0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:34.879
<v Speaker 2>clients have huge challenges as adults and they see this

0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:37.920
<v Speaker 2>person in front of them, and sometimes, you know, survivors

0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:39.639
<v Speaker 2>will bring photos of what they were like when they

0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:43.520
<v Speaker 2>were kids. And that's really impactful for organizations because it's

0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:45.560
<v Speaker 2>real easy to see this person in front of you

0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:48.800
<v Speaker 2>as someone who is a challenge to how you do things,

0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:53.000
<v Speaker 2>and lots of organizations want to be organizations that are

0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:55.200
<v Speaker 2>doing great things in the community that are helpful, they

0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:58.439
<v Speaker 2>are doing the right thing, they're morally upright. And to

0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:01.640
<v Speaker 2>have this person saying you're yourself hurt me and your

0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:05.680
<v Speaker 2>organization never stepped into help or even worse, in terms

0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:08.480
<v Speaker 2>of some of the Catholic organizations, you're you and you

0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:12.520
<v Speaker 2>move the priests to somewhere else. And that is really

0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:16.119
<v Speaker 2>hard for organizations to hear. But some of them have,

0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:22.919
<v Speaker 2>to their credit, recognized that you can't just package it

0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:25.040
<v Speaker 2>up and send it on its way, and that you

0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:27.919
<v Speaker 2>have to be more accountable. And that's to their credit.

0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:29.919
<v Speaker 2>But I think we've got quite a long way to go.

0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:34.040
<v Speaker 1>And in terms of public apologies, I suppose different survivors

0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:37.600
<v Speaker 1>will feel different things about public apologies, but what are

0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:40.760
<v Speaker 1>some of the thoughts and feelings that you've heard from

0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:41.960
<v Speaker 1>survivors about them.

0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:45.359
<v Speaker 2>We also, keele, survivors are not a homogeneous group, and

0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:48.199
<v Speaker 2>in your right, it means different things to different people.

0:21:48.920 --> 0:21:51.400
<v Speaker 2>And I think when I think back to the apology

0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:54.560
<v Speaker 2>delivered in Parliament, and I was at Parliament for that,

0:21:54.960 --> 0:21:59.440
<v Speaker 2>and there was a range of emotions from people feeling

0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:03.159
<v Speaker 2>like a sort of release them from a lot of

0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:06.680
<v Speaker 2>the hurt the fucking mar in my mind, that they've

0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:10.600
<v Speaker 2>been caring for years, that they felt that that sort

0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:12.400
<v Speaker 2>of brought that to an end for them in a way,

0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:18.280
<v Speaker 2>and others perhaps a bit more cynical, perhaps going right, Well,

0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:23.239
<v Speaker 2>an apology is empty without meaningful action with it. And

0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:26.560
<v Speaker 2>at that point the government will say we're looking at readress,

0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:28.840
<v Speaker 2>we're looking at what we can do. But there wasn't

0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:31.960
<v Speaker 2>anything concrete with the apology. And I think people have

0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:35.720
<v Speaker 2>been let down by those organizations so often just wanted

0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:37.800
<v Speaker 2>to sort of go okay, well you said sorry, Now

0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:42.480
<v Speaker 2>what does that look like? So yeah, the full range

0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:44.040
<v Speaker 2>of responses there.

0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:47.679
<v Speaker 1>And lastly, Amanda, if you could change one thing tomorrow

0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:53.320
<v Speaker 1>without any no qualms about money or legal processes or

0:22:53.400 --> 0:22:56.640
<v Speaker 1>laws or legislation or time or anything, what would it be.

0:22:56.920 --> 0:23:00.479
<v Speaker 2>I would implement the Royal Commission's recommendations to bring in

0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:04.800
<v Speaker 2>a single independent scheme. It would bring in all of

0:23:04.840 --> 0:23:09.200
<v Speaker 2>the different organizations into under one roof. It would mean

0:23:09.200 --> 0:23:11.159
<v Speaker 2>that's if IRIS didn't have to go to three or

0:23:11.160 --> 0:23:14.199
<v Speaker 2>four different organizations because they were replaced in different places

0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:17.199
<v Speaker 2>as kids. I would make sure it was consistent and

0:23:17.240 --> 0:23:20.320
<v Speaker 2>transparent and accountable and there was a one stop place

0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:24.440
<v Speaker 2>where people could go and if we have it all there,

0:23:24.760 --> 0:23:27.560
<v Speaker 2>The Royal Commission has presented this and we just need

0:23:27.600 --> 0:23:28.720
<v Speaker 2>to implement it.

0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:30.240
<v Speaker 1>Why isn't it happening?

0:23:34.840 --> 0:23:41.000
<v Speaker 2>Political will? I think, isn't there? There is some work happening,

0:23:41.200 --> 0:23:44.800
<v Speaker 2>But like I say, it is picking low hanging fruit.

0:23:44.920 --> 0:23:50.959
<v Speaker 2>It is tinkering. It's not acknowledging that the state. And

0:23:51.000 --> 0:23:53.120
<v Speaker 2>someone said this. I think it was a High court

0:23:53.200 --> 0:23:57.080
<v Speaker 2>judge that this many years ago. The abuser cannot be

0:23:57.119 --> 0:24:02.359
<v Speaker 2>the save yet you cannot fix your own house. It

0:24:02.400 --> 0:24:07.000
<v Speaker 2>has to be taken out of the organizations dealt with independently.

0:24:07.320 --> 0:24:09.080
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for joining us, Amanda.

0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:10.320
<v Speaker 2>No problem, think you everything.

0:24:13.320 --> 0:24:16.560
<v Speaker 1>That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You

0:24:16.600 --> 0:24:20.480
<v Speaker 1>can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

0:24:20.520 --> 0:24:24.600
<v Speaker 1>at enzadherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is

0:24:24.680 --> 0:24:28.080
<v Speaker 1>produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also

0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:32.760
<v Speaker 1>our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page

0:24:32.800 --> 0:24:36.399
<v Speaker 1>on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune

0:24:36.440 --> 0:24:39.480
<v Speaker 1>in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.