1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: Kilda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, 2 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:16,440 Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. Church 3 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: leaders are continuing to publicly apologize to survivors of abuse. 4 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: The Presbyterian Church is the latest to address it in 5 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: two public apology events. The first was in Dunedin at 6 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: the weekend and the next is in Auckland this Saturday. 7 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: It's the latest in a series of public apologies from 8 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: church and public sector leaders after the Royal Commission of 9 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: an Inquiry into abuse in care. Over five years of investigations, 10 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: the inquiry heard nearly three thousand survivor accounts of abuse 11 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: and neglect. The more than one hundred and thirty recommendations 12 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: focused on creating a new independence redress system, strengthening the 13 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: care system, and holding institutions accountable. Today on the Front Page, 14 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: lawyer Amanda Hill has represented abusing care survivors and it's 15 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: with us to explain how the process is working and 16 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: how it's not. First off, Amanda, tell me how you 17 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: think the redress scheme is going so far? 18 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:30,839 Speaker 2: Well? I guess one of the challenges is that there's 19 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 2: no single redress game. There are many different schemes some good, 20 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 2: some bad, some ugly. There is a lot of talk 21 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 2: and work her own redress, but there's a big gaping 22 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 2: hole in the middle, and that's the government's decision not 23 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:51,559 Speaker 2: to proceed with the Royal Commission's key recommendations around independence game. 24 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 2: So if I were standing back and looking at the biggest, 25 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 2: biggest problem with redress or or the biggest lack of progress, 26 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 2: that would be the government decisions around that, and so 27 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 2: everything else sort of pales in comparison to that. But 28 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 2: I also acknowledged that there's organizations who are doing their 29 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 2: best without that government support. 30 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: So if that independence scheme would have gone ahead, it 31 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: would just be a blanket rule or a blanket thing 32 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:20,239 Speaker 1: across all of them. But at the moment, what we've 33 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: got is different readress schemes for different institutions, and different 34 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: whether they be state based or faith based. 35 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 2: Yes, So the idea behind the independent scheme, which the 36 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 2: Royal Commission called was to provide a sort of a 37 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 2: single scheme that dealt with abuse and state care, faith 38 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 2: based care, schools, everything, and that they would be buying 39 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 2: from faith based organizations so they'd become part of that scheme, 40 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 2: which meant that there was transparency, independence, accountability. Everyone knew 41 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 2: what the rules were, but with the decision not to 42 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 2: proceed with that, what the government's done is trying to 43 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 2: even up as the various processes within government which are 44 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 2: wildly inconsistent, and to trying to do a bit of 45 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 2: work inside their own house, but leaving faith based organizations 46 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 2: to forge your head on their own. So we still 47 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 2: have lots of different things going on. 48 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,519 Speaker 1: Has the horse bolted in that respect? Is it too 49 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: late to put that in place now? 50 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 2: Not at all, Not at all. I think there will 51 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 2: always be an opportunity for a single independent scheme, and 52 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 2: the current situation in terms of state matters is very patchy, 53 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 2: but there will always be an opportunity to bring and 54 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 2: put it to me to a finally, so while we're 55 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 2: pretty gutted with the decisions right now, there will always 56 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 2: be work to try and bring that about. 57 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: What are some of the roadblocks that survivors are finding 58 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: themselves up against. 59 00:03:55,880 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 2: There is still, i think a real lack of belief 60 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 2: around the scale and nature of abuse and care. There 61 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 2: is still real difficulty around access to records. Although there's 62 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,679 Speaker 2: been quite a lot of good work in that space, 63 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 2: there is still a real lack of understanding of what 64 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 2: good redress looks like. And in New Zealand the compensation 65 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 2: levels in particular punishingly low, and that's partly reflective of 66 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 2: the role of acc which means that you can't sue 67 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 2: for general or compensatory damages, but it is a really 68 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 2: the approach is often superficial, not always understanding what the 69 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 2: impact on survivors is, not understanding that abuse has lifelong impacts, 70 00:04:58,120 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 2: and just sort of thinking that a few pass or 71 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 2: something up and hand it over, that's done, whereas what 72 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 2: we know is that redress is a journey rather than 73 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 2: an event. 74 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: Budget twenty twenty five saw seven hundred and seventy four 75 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: million dollars put aside to improve the state abuse redress scheme. 76 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 3: Is that enough? 77 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 2: It's hard to tell because it really depends on where 78 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 2: that money is going. There is a backlog of claims 79 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,239 Speaker 2: within the Administry of Social Development and Ministry of Education, 80 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 2: so some of that is just about getting work done 81 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 2: that hasn't been done yet. It's not necessarily about when 82 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 2: I say improving, they may not making people work wait 83 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 2: five years because that's the current wait time. And some 84 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 2: of it is lifting up some compensation which has been 85 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 2: very low, lifting them up to a slightly higher level. 86 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 2: So how that money is it has passed up is 87 00:05:55,800 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 2: probably I don't have the information around what that's been 88 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 2: applied to, but I know there have been top ups 89 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 2: for some people who have resolved their claims, particularly with 90 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 2: social development, that's been really good for them. But when 91 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 2: your top up sort of only takes you to a 92 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 2: reasonably low amount, that's still you know, when you stand 93 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 2: back and look at the bigger pictures, it's still pretty hard. 94 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 2: But there is I call it tinkering. I think a 95 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 2: lot of the work being done is tinkering. When you're 96 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 2: trying to improve something that's so badly broken, you sort 97 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 2: of go, well, what's the cost of just actually starting again? 98 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: And I mean one of the major questions to come 99 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: out of the inquiry as well, I suppose, is how 100 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: do you quantify someone's abuse? 101 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 2: And you can't. You can't. What you often hear from 102 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 2: particularly organizations where abuse has been perpetrated, is no amount 103 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 2: of money can fix this harm. But the end of 104 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 2: that sentence really needs to be but we'll give it 105 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 2: our best shot. And often that's not what's happening. And 106 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 2: so this thing of amount of money can fix the 107 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 2: harm means that they don't really put an effort and 108 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 2: to try you can't. There are some ways you can quantify, 109 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 2: and so when you look at things like assessing perhaps 110 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 2: someone's lost opportunity, lost wages, that the loss of potential 111 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 2: earning scheme through ACC is one of those measures we 112 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 2: look at. You know, have you been able to parents, 113 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 2: have you been able to hold down a job? Do 114 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 2: you have mental health, a drug, alcohol issues? Again, it 115 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 2: hard to quantify, but it has been done. You look 116 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 2: overseas and there are plenty of jurisdictions where it's been done. 117 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 2: So it's not like we're starting from scratch. There is 118 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 2: a whole jurisprudence around us. 119 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: How is it for survivors being able to access their 120 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: redress payments reliably? And you mentioned a five year wait 121 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,559 Speaker 1: time at the moment, why is it taking so long? 122 00:07:56,040 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 2: Clartly? One of the challenges will always be with the 123 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 2: state processes is it is the state investigating itself? There 124 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 2: is it's MSD looking at you know, did its own 125 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 2: staff members cause harm? And there's not really any motivation 126 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 2: to do that quickly. So there's been a dragging of 127 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 2: feet over a long period of time, there have been 128 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 2: multiple changes to processes. There's been so many different ways 129 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 2: that redress has been administered, in some clunkier than others. 130 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 2: But really there's just not been the resourcing, the staffing, 131 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 2: or the motivation to resolve claims quickly, and so they're 132 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 2: built up because I think the state never realized or 133 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 2: recognized just how many victims there were, whereas the Royal 134 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 2: Commission was very clear that a huge number of people 135 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 2: in state and based care were of use. 136 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 1: One name that comes to mind when thinking about the inquiries, 137 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: of course, lake Alice. As of last month, Arenz reported 138 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: one hundred and forty one people have been ruled eligible 139 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: for the Lake Alice redress scheme, with one hundred and 140 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: two of those opting to receive a one hundred and 141 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars payment. Some have decided to go to arbitration. 142 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 1: Can you explain to us what that means? 143 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 2: Sure? I guess. The first thing to note, though, is 144 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 2: that this Lake Alice process is limited to people who 145 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 2: were in the Child in Adolescent unit run by Doc 146 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 2: seven Leaks and who suffered ect in an unmodified format 147 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 2: lecterer of shock therapy or the use of a drug 148 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 2: called peraldehyde. So this is a very targeted group of 149 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 2: people rather than the larger group of Lake Alice or 150 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 2: other psychiatric institutions. So it's a it's a microcosm really, 151 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,439 Speaker 2: and it came about because of the United Nations finding 152 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 2: that what happened there was torture met the definition of torture. 153 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 2: So it's the first thing. It's a smaller group the 154 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 2: process for those people either, but there's a pathway. Effectively, 155 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 2: arbitration doesn't mean something's failed. That means that they get 156 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 2: to choose. And so the first pathway, as you say, 157 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 2: a payment of one hundred and fifty thousand dollars. That's 158 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 2: an expedite in payment, so that happens quite quickly, and 159 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 2: that comes with an apology and some help with services 160 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 2: and things like that. If people want to take a 161 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 2: more individual approach, they and those meetings have occurred now 162 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:34,199 Speaker 2: with an independent arbitrator who's a retired High Court judge, 163 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 2: and that means that they get to meet someone and 164 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 2: talk about their experiences and have a more personalized and 165 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:45,559 Speaker 2: tailored approach, which suits some survivors they want to go 166 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 2: down that road. Others they and particularly this cohort. They're 167 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 2: often sick, they're very old, they need the money for 168 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 2: whatever reason, and digging through those memories is hard. So 169 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 2: this option of either a fairly fast approach recognizing that 170 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 2: you meet the eligibility criteria, or the arbitration where you 171 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 2: may receive a higher amount but you go through this 172 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 2: process that provides it some tailored options for survivors. 173 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: And I understand the deadline for the expedited pathway is tomorrow, Tuesday, 174 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: September thirtieth. What does this mean? 175 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 2: So my understanding is that because this was a time 176 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 2: limited process and that was a decision made by Cabinet, 177 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,439 Speaker 2: that if someone hasn't registered with the Crown Response Unit 178 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 2: by the thirtieth of September, then that payment won't be 179 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 2: available to them. There's a couple of steps that need 180 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 2: to be taken to be eligible for that scheme. So yes, 181 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 2: there will come point where some people who haven't been 182 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 2: involved in that process may miss out. 183 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: That doesn't seem fair at all. 184 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 2: It isn't fair to the people who have been involved 185 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:08,079 Speaker 2: in One of the challenges sometimes is that the expectation 186 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 2: that survivors will put their hand up to go through 187 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 2: this process and that they will have the ability to 188 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 2: engage within this case government. There's been a lot of 189 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 2: help given to survivors. Myself and other lawyers are appointed 190 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 2: as panel lawyers, and there's been some really good support provided. 191 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 2: But again they have to come to the scheme. The 192 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 2: scheme doesn't come to them. The state. They know the 193 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 2: names of the people who are in the child adolescent unit, 194 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 2: so there's no proactive reaching out to people. And that's 195 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 2: where the challenges lie. Because what we know is that 196 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 2: some of the people from the Callis are some of 197 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,679 Speaker 2: the most damaged survivors that I've ever met, and they've 198 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 2: suffered so much harm and their ability to engage with 199 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 2: schemes to ring government is a scary thing when you've 200 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 2: been harmed so badly, and to re engage with government 201 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 2: and to put yourself in that position again is a 202 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 2: really hard thing. So there are real challenges around that. 203 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: And so if people haven't come forward, of those who 204 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: haven't come forward already as of tomorrow, is government kind 205 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 1: of relieved of any responsibility. 206 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 2: That's a really good question, and that's a bit of 207 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,959 Speaker 2: an unknown to be honest, And I think if there 208 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 2: is another cohort of survivors you know, the Minister may 209 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,719 Speaker 2: have to make some decisions there. Because this scheme is 210 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 2: running for a particular time, I cannot have designated that time. 211 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 2: The Arbat's job is is time limited. And what happens 212 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 2: after that, I think it remains to be seen, But 213 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 2: that may be a political decision more than anything else. 214 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 3: Today, I'm apologizing on behalf of the government to every 215 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 3: everyone who suffered abuse, harm and neglect while in state care. 216 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 3: To they make this apology to all survivors on behalf 217 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 3: of my own and previous governments. You deserved so much 218 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 3: better and I am deeply sorry that New Zealand did 219 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 3: not do better by you. I am sorry that you 220 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 3: were not believed when you came forward to report your abuse. 221 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 3: I am sorry that many bystanders, staff, volunteers and careers 222 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 3: turned a blind eye and failed to stop or report abuse. 223 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: I see that the Presbyterian Church is publicly apologizing in 224 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: Auckland this weekend. They did so on Dunedin last weekend, 225 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: and I've noticed the church use the phrase holistic redress. 226 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: Is that different to redress? Can you explain to me 227 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: what that means? 228 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 2: Sure? I think and that often means different things to 229 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 2: different organizations. So there's no single approach. But I guess 230 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 2: when we talk about redress it responds to all of 231 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 2: the harm rather than an element of redress is compensation. 232 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 2: It's money, but redress can also means an apology. It 233 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 2: also means making sure someone can access independent legal advice, 234 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 2: so often paying legal costs, counseling or other support. I 235 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 2: know for for some schemes, access to facilitators to help 236 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 2: you navigate your entitlements with ACC for example, ACC is 237 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 2: an enormous barrier for survivors. It's incredibly difficult to navigate 238 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 2: lifelong help with parenting or with all sorts of things. 239 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 2: So when I talk about redress or healing being a 240 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 2: journey rather than an event, that that's what I mean. 241 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:09,359 Speaker 2: As supply of services over time is really really important. 242 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: And so the holistic part of it could mean any 243 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: range of things. 244 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, whatever, And this is what a good redress 245 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 2: responds to the survivor in front of view, That responds 246 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 2: to their needs and what they want, and it's a 247 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 2: conversation rather than going here's your money, see you later, 248 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 2: you're done. There is much more to be gained through 249 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 2: holistic redress than a fairly transactional approach. 250 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: Have any other faiths set up their own redress process 251 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: and if so, what do they look like? How do 252 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: they compare? 253 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 2: Different churches or faith based organizations have different processes and 254 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 2: have for many years. The Salvation Army has had a 255 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 2: process so many years and that was often run one 256 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 2: person out of the Salvation Army. Again, those challenges of 257 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 2: investigating your own people and the lack of independence there 258 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 2: during the Royal Commission. It caused some organizations to give 259 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 2: themselves a hard block and to revise what they were doing. 260 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 2: Some have done that better than others, but so every 261 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 2: organization has a different approach, and it's often in a 262 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 2: state of flux. So it's changing a great deal when 263 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 2: I think a lot of organizations were waiting for the 264 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 2: final report of the Royal Commission Fanikia, which was a 265 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 2: shot last year and to took a lot out of that, 266 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 2: but lots of them were waiting for the state to 267 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:52,360 Speaker 2: implement an independent scheme and just had gone, right, we'll 268 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 2: hang in there until this is going to happen. And 269 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 2: now without that, I think they are looking at their 270 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 2: own schemes and making steps. That is a wide range 271 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 2: of responses and wide range of schemes. 272 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: How does the redress compare between state based and faith based? 273 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: Is it better on either side or do both sides 274 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: have kind of positives and negatives? 275 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 2: It varies wildly, And this is what I mean about 276 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 2: the lack of consistency. You know, there are some organizations 277 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 2: that sort of don't easily fit. So when I think 278 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 2: about really good redress schemes, you look at something like 279 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:35,919 Speaker 2: deal With. Deal With School up in Auckland, there was 280 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 2: an independent inquiry and discovered in a culture of sexual 281 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 2: abuse at the school over many years, an extraordinary number 282 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 2: of boys in the school sexually abused over a long 283 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 2: period of time, and deal With instituted a process that 284 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 2: was independent of the school. And nothing's perfect, but it 285 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 2: was a pretty good process and the compensation paid by 286 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 2: deal Worth was far and away above anything that the 287 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 2: state had ever Often at the other end, some Catholic 288 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 2: orders very very limited redress, almost grudging, I think it 289 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 2: is probably a word to use, and other organizations not 290 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 2: engaging at all. So it's hard to compare because they're 291 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 2: so different. But to give you an example, someone who 292 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 2: had experienced sexual abuse a deal Worth could receive compensation 293 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 2: of so two hundred thousand dollars. Someone in state care 294 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 2: who had experienced the same abuse and potentially abuse for 295 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 2: a longer period of time might get thirty or forty 296 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 2: thousand dollars. That's what that difference looks like. 297 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: In terms of these institutions, I'm sure, and you've spoken 298 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 1: to a lot of survivors as well. Does it feel 299 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:59,239 Speaker 1: like if we pay this person this lump sum, this 300 00:19:59,320 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: will all go. 301 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 2: I think it feels like that to some organizations. But 302 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 2: I think what I've seen over time is that when 303 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:15,199 Speaker 2: people and often I've seen this and people coming and 304 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 2: new to some organizations, when they meet survivors and they 305 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 2: see them face to face and they hear what happened 306 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 2: to them, and they hear what their adult life has 307 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 2: been like, and that you know, a lot of my 308 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 2: clients have huge challenges as adults and they see this 309 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 2: person in front of them, and sometimes, you know, survivors 310 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 2: will bring photos of what they were like when they 311 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 2: were kids. And that's really impactful for organizations because it's 312 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 2: real easy to see this person in front of you 313 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 2: as someone who is a challenge to how you do things, 314 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 2: and lots of organizations want to be organizations that are 315 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 2: doing great things in the community that are helpful, they 316 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,439 Speaker 2: are doing the right thing, they're morally upright. And to 317 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,640 Speaker 2: have this person saying you're yourself hurt me and your 318 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 2: organization never stepped into help or even worse, in terms 319 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 2: of some of the Catholic organizations, you're you and you 320 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 2: move the priests to somewhere else. And that is really 321 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 2: hard for organizations to hear. But some of them have, 322 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 2: to their credit, recognized that you can't just package it 323 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 2: up and send it on its way, and that you 324 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 2: have to be more accountable. And that's to their credit. 325 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:29,919 Speaker 2: But I think we've got quite a long way to go. 326 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: And in terms of public apologies, I suppose different survivors 327 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: will feel different things about public apologies, but what are 328 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: some of the thoughts and feelings that you've heard from 329 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: survivors about them. 330 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 2: We also, keele, survivors are not a homogeneous group, and 331 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,199 Speaker 2: in your right, it means different things to different people. 332 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 2: And I think when I think back to the apology 333 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 2: delivered in Parliament, and I was at Parliament for that, 334 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 2: and there was a range of emotions from people feeling 335 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 2: like a sort of release them from a lot of 336 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 2: the hurt the fucking mar in my mind, that they've 337 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 2: been caring for years, that they felt that that sort 338 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 2: of brought that to an end for them in a way, 339 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 2: and others perhaps a bit more cynical, perhaps going right, Well, 340 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:23,239 Speaker 2: an apology is empty without meaningful action with it. And 341 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 2: at that point the government will say we're looking at readress, 342 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 2: we're looking at what we can do. But there wasn't 343 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 2: anything concrete with the apology. And I think people have 344 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 2: been let down by those organizations so often just wanted 345 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 2: to sort of go okay, well you said sorry, Now 346 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 2: what does that look like? So yeah, the full range 347 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 2: of responses there. 348 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,679 Speaker 1: And lastly, Amanda, if you could change one thing tomorrow 349 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: without any no qualms about money or legal processes or 350 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,640 Speaker 1: laws or legislation or time or anything, what would it be. 351 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:00,479 Speaker 2: I would implement the Royal Commission's recommendations to bring in 352 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 2: a single independent scheme. It would bring in all of 353 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 2: the different organizations into under one roof. It would mean 354 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 2: that's if IRIS didn't have to go to three or 355 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,199 Speaker 2: four different organizations because they were replaced in different places 356 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,199 Speaker 2: as kids. I would make sure it was consistent and 357 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 2: transparent and accountable and there was a one stop place 358 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 2: where people could go and if we have it all there, 359 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 2: The Royal Commission has presented this and we just need 360 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 2: to implement it. 361 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: Why isn't it happening? 362 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 2: Political will? I think, isn't there? There is some work happening, 363 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 2: But like I say, it is picking low hanging fruit. 364 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:50,959 Speaker 2: It is tinkering. It's not acknowledging that the state. And 365 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 2: someone said this. I think it was a High court 366 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 2: judge that this many years ago. The abuser cannot be 367 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 2: the save yet you cannot fix your own house. It 368 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 2: has to be taken out of the organizations dealt with independently. 369 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Amanda. 370 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 2: No problem, think you everything. 371 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You 372 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 373 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: at enzadherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 374 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also 375 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page 376 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune 377 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.