1 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Kiyota. 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. People respond 4 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 2: to election losses in various ways, from protesting to legal 5 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 2: action to considering moving country. But what about adopting a 6 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 2: vow of celibacy through something called the four B movement. 7 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 2: That's something young women in the US have promised on 8 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 2: social media in protest of Donald Trump winning back the 9 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 2: White House. No dating, no sex, no childbirth, and no 10 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 2: marriage in a world where the next US president was 11 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 2: found liable for sexual abuse. Online vitriol against women as skyrocketing, 12 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 2: and the term your body, My Choice is trending online. 13 00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 2: How effective could this four B movement be? University of 14 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 2: Otago PhD candidate Rachel Billington has researched how young people 15 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 2: interact with each other online and joins us Now on 16 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 2: the Front Page to discuss this growing movement. Rachel, can 17 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 2: you explain a little bit about the origins of the 18 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 2: four BE movement? Where did this come from and what 19 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 2: do those four bs represent? 20 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 1: So the four B movement started in South Korea and 21 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: it's really pushing back against kind of very misogynistic and 22 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: patriarchal society. The four bees represent four Korean words. They 23 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:42,479 Speaker 1: each begin with bi, meaning no or not to do, 24 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: and so the bees each represent four things that women 25 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: are choosing not to do, and those are marrying men, 26 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: having sex with men, having children with men, and dating men. 27 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: So it's really about pushing back against the patriarchal structure, 28 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: which it really almost treats women as incubators for the 29 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: next generation rather than people in their own right. 30 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 2: I've seen some comments online saying that the four B 31 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 2: movement is something that the West has picked up and 32 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: ran with. Basically, do we actually know how popular the 33 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 2: movement is in South Korea? 34 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: No, And to be honest, I can't even really speak 35 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: to how popular it is as well, because I'm just 36 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: learning about it too. I think what's happened post Trump 37 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 1: election re election is that it's really gained attraction because 38 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: a lot of women are actually saying, oh wow, you 39 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: know what people are already doing. This taking political reasons 40 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: to swear off men is not a new thing. You know, 41 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: this happened in the seventies with feminist movements as well. 42 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: But really this reinvigoration and noticing how in South Korea 43 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: a lot of the problems that women are facing are 44 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: about kind of economic struggles, housing struggles, things that they 45 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: actually if we're going to have children, if you want 46 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: us to have children, maybe work on helping us build 47 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 1: a society and live happier, more flourishing lives in the 48 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: first place, and then maybe we'll think about it. But 49 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: if that's not happening, then we don't understand your priorities 50 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: and we don't agree with them. And I think that 51 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: that's starting to resonate with people across the world as well. 52 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 3: I thought I was going to have a boyfriend by now. 53 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 3: I'd never thought about marriage, but I thought I would 54 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 3: be at least with someone. It's hard for us to 55 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 3: let go of this dream and this fantasy that was 56 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 3: sold to us as women. But it's like men are 57 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 3: not going to save us in this eleventh hour, Like 58 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 3: we are not coming to be saved. We have to 59 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 3: stick together and help each other. 60 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 2: Well, we've seen this idea gain ground in the US 61 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 2: over the last week as one way young women are 62 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 2: responding to Donald Trump's election victory. On the campaign trail, 63 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 2: he came under five for comments about women from everything 64 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 2: around and reproductive rights. To Trump saying he'd protect women 65 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: whether they like it or not. And then you had, 66 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 2: of course JD. Vance came at childless cat ladies, which 67 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 2: I know struck a chord with me, and I'm not 68 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 2: even American. Do you think all this has contributed to 69 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 2: the uptick in this four B movement? 70 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:20,919 Speaker 1: Yes, I would say absolutely. You know, I think a 71 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 1: lot of women in the USA are really reeling after 72 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: the reelection of Donald Trump, just knowing his history with 73 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: sexual abuse allegation since the nineteen seventies sexual assault allegations. 74 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: This is a man that a lot of women feel 75 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: he doesn't respect them, He doesn't respect women, and to 76 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: see him put in this position of power with so 77 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: much power of a women's lives and reproductive rights, certainly 78 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: people are feeling really shocked and really afraid of what 79 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: this is going to mean for them, for their rights 80 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: and for the progress that has been made for women 81 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: by women over the generations. 82 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 2: I know one male white nationalist and Holocaust deniers social 83 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 2: media post where he spouted your body, my choice that 84 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 2: went viral and fuelled some of this four B discussion. 85 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:14,359 Speaker 2: The fact that someone with such a platform and so 86 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 2: many followers can feel comfortable enough going online and sharing 87 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 2: something like that, it feels like a bit of a 88 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 2: backward step. 89 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: Pay you know, I do think that social media companies 90 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: have a lot to answer for for the way that 91 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,799 Speaker 1: these kinds of messages, these narratives travel, and the way 92 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: that polarization, ideological polarization along gender lines, and political polarization 93 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: are really exacerbated over the last fifteen years. Commentsate that 94 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: online are rewarded by the algorithm because they're provocative and 95 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,840 Speaker 1: because they're shocking, because people engage with things that make 96 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: them feel outraged or shocked. So it's really hardly the 97 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: responsibility of the way these social media algorithms are actually 98 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 1: designed to reward provocative content. Saying something like that in 99 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: this climate does speak to the way that some people 100 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: are really emboldened by these misogynistic ideas. I don't know 101 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 1: that it's a sincere reflection of what he actually believes. 102 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: I mean, he's got some very troubling beliefs. Anyway, that 103 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: my reading of that post is really just about provoking 104 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:29,280 Speaker 1: people to a sense of rage and to a sense 105 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: of anger at each other, which will just stoke more 106 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 1: and more tension and increase the sense of polarization. And 107 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: increase this animosity between groups. 108 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 2: And just another stat that has completely blown my mind. 109 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 2: Posts calling for the repeal of the nineteenth Amendment, which 110 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 2: gives women the right to vote, surged by six hundred 111 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: and sixty three percent on x or formerly known as 112 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 2: Twitter in one week. Is this alarming? 113 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: It is alarming. It is alarming, and I don't I 114 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: do feel like we've got to be careful not to 115 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: stoke a kind of moral panic about these things, because 116 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: it is in a lot of ways it is just 117 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: about provocateurs doing what they do, provoking tension, provoking polarization. 118 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: But it is troubling in the way that it is 119 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: normalizing very anti woman discourses and ideas about repealing women's rights, 120 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: because I think a lot of the thing about you know, 121 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: part of the anger and the anxiety around the reelection 122 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: of Donald Trump is that the abortion issue, for example, 123 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: is really about rights, women's rights, reproductive rights, autonomy, equality, humanity, 124 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: and since this reelection and with the repealing of a 125 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: lot of you know, Roe v. Wade for example, and 126 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: challenges to women's rights, it's not just about reproductive rights. 127 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: It's about women's humanity and these kinds of discourses that 128 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: start to travel online, start to normalize these questions about 129 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 1: whether women really do deserve equality, whether they really do 130 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: deserve full autonomy, whether they are equal to men. And again, 131 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: it is really provocation, and it is really about stoking outrage. 132 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: But when you've got people, young men online just sitting 133 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: in the space where all this information is coming into them, 134 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: it really does skew or give them a skewed perception 135 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,719 Speaker 1: of the world potentially, and when they're developing their identities, 136 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: their political identities, trying to form relationships, trying to come 137 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: to understand themselves, these kinds of discourses can do a 138 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: lot of harm. 139 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 2: I know that Figures from Amnesty International already show that 140 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 2: in New Zealand, around one out of three women surveyed 141 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 2: they had experienced online abuse and harassment. Do you think 142 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 2: the heightening of abuse against women online could get worse 143 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 2: in Altiero as well? 144 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: Yes, I think any trend that we see because of 145 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: the way that social media operates, you know, we're a 146 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: global community now, Little old New Zealand used to be 147 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: that it would take a little while for trends happening 148 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: overseas to arrive here, but that's not the case anymore. 149 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: We're no different. We're in no different situation technologically, so 150 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,079 Speaker 1: we certainly may well be affected by these kinds of narratives, 151 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: particularly when we know that our young boys in schools 152 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: and young men here, like many places across the world, 153 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: are seeing content made by misogynistic influences on TikTok, on Instagram, 154 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: on x wherever it is. Based on their demographics, they're 155 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: seeing this content. Whether they're really choosing to or not, 156 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: this content ends up in their social feeds and it 157 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: becomes normalized. They just start to absorb these ideas that 158 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 1: are being shared to them. And it's definitely the case 159 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: in New Zealand. 160 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 4: It was twenty twenty four, what the hell is going 161 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 4: on here with people who sitting there in their arm chair, 162 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 4: operating their keyboard, making comments about people that they do 163 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 4: not know about near they do not know, and they're 164 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,439 Speaker 4: just file We has a bit of decency. This is 165 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 4: outrageous behavior and New Zealand is not known for this 166 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 4: and we are better than it, I know. 167 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 2: At least one American school district is sent a warning 168 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 2: to parents this week. It said, in the days after 169 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 2: the election, we have received reports of some students using 170 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 2: the phrase your body my choice, often directed at female students. 171 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 2: That was from the superintendent of Stephens Points School District 172 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:58,319 Speaker 2: in Wisconsin, and that email was then sent to CNN. 173 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 2: Is there a fear that this online harassment against women 174 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 2: could actually spill over to the real world. 175 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: Yes, there is that fear. There is that fear, and 176 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: it could be you know, in some cases, it could 177 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: be the boys and young men and maybe some other girls. Actually, 178 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: girls aren't immune from their skills, and women aren't immune 179 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: from absorbing these kinds of messages too. And even if 180 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: they're bringing it into school or into work, or into 181 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 1: university or wherever, even if it's bringing it as a joke, 182 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: jokes do have a way of changing the atmosphere of 183 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: a place, making people feel less safe, making other people 184 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: feel more emboldened to express potentially more extreme views, and 185 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:44,959 Speaker 1: it normalizes the sense that these are actually find things 186 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: to think and find things to express. So there is 187 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: a need to really push back against these kinds of 188 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: jokes when they come up, whether their jokes or not 189 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: to begin with, they have a way of becoming more 190 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: insidious the more they are set well. 191 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 2: I've read things about what's called the manisphere, which apparently 192 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 2: sucks in and radicalizes young men online. I've also seen 193 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 2: a lot of post election analysis digging into the fact 194 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,359 Speaker 2: that young men seem to have been influenced by podcasters 195 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 2: and men's rights activists. Is that fair to say? What 196 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 2: is the manisphere? 197 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: Yeah? I think it is fair to say so. The 198 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: manisphere is kind of a loosely connected network of different 199 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: online channels, influences across different platforms. It tends towards well, 200 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: it's kind of I feel like there is room to 201 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: have quite a nuanced conversation about this, because when I 202 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: talked to teenage boys and my research, there was a 203 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: sense that a lot of them really did find a 204 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: real sense of belonging and affirmation in those kinds of 205 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 1: spaces that they weren't getting anywhere else in their lives. 206 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: There was the sense that they helped them to develop 207 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: a sense of self acceptance, a sense of self confidence. 208 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: They help them overcome kind of addictions to pornography and 209 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 1: help them encourage them to get outside and be more 210 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 1: active and start working on their body. And for a 211 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: lot of young men, these are really experienced is very 212 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 1: positive things, and they may well be positive in that sense. However, 213 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:27,439 Speaker 1: the general philosophy that circulates or underpins these spaces is 214 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: very anti feminist and quite anti women and misogynistic. There's 215 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: this idea that men are suffering because of the winds 216 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: of feminism over the generations, and men have less power 217 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: now than they deserve ultimately. So the manisphere, while it 218 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: can really offer a sense of acceptance and safety and 219 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: belonging and affirmation to a lot of boys and young men, 220 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: it's really also trading in this ideology which is incredibly 221 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: dangerous anti women, which serves to really further alienate men 222 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: and young boys from people in their real lives. So 223 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: they become captured within this space in a way that 224 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: makes it very difficult to get out. 225 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 2: What else have you seen or heard from young men 226 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 2: and women about how they're interacting with each other online? 227 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: In my own research, there was much interacting with each other, 228 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: and I think that's quite interesting, you know, you know, 229 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: they see the worlds of other young men and young 230 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: women online. I think one of the things that really 231 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: struck me, particularly for the young men that they spoke to, 232 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: is a lot of their understandings of women, not all 233 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: of them, but a few of them. A handful of 234 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: them talked about this, and this really struck me. They 235 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: don't necessarily have much to do with women in their 236 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: offline lives if they go to All Boys' Skills, for example, 237 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: and the exposure that they have to women online is 238 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: largely through pornography and semi pornographic content. And part of 239 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: the problem with this, I mean, we can talk about 240 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: there's many problems with this, but a lot of the time, 241 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: because of the logics of social media, this content comes 242 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: across their feeds, whether they're seeking it out or not. 243 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: So part of the problem here is that they are 244 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: unintentionally being exposed to pornographic semi pornographic content which they 245 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: actually would prefer not to see. So it starts to 246 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: skew their perspective of women, and it starts to it 247 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: actually also leads them often into these manispher spaces which 248 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: are ostensibly quite anti pornography, partly because they see it 249 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: as how feminism over years has led to kind of 250 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: degeneration of traditional values and pornography is a symptom of that, 251 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: and this pornography is a symptom of women's liberation. So 252 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: for young men who've struggled with pornography addiction or they're 253 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: coming across it and they'd rather not see it. But 254 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: then you know, they have the response that they're going 255 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: to have, whether they like it or not, and then 256 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: they might be feeling shame or feeling anger or feeling 257 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: anxiety about that. Then they find a sense of a 258 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: sense of support within these manisphere spaces. So often it 259 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: is the fact that they don't have real meaningful connections 260 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: with people of the opposite sex that they do find 261 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: themselves trapped within these spaces which paint women as the enemy. 262 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: For example, studies. 263 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 5: Have shown that members of other online communities do frequently 264 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 5: migrate two channels espousing more extreme views. The twenty twenty 265 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 5: one study found that the overlap between users in the 266 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 5: Manosphere and the old rate is substantial, and it's common 267 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 5: for users who once commented exclusively in the Manosphere to 268 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 5: eventually engaged. 269 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: With alt rate content. 270 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 5: And it makes sense, as I've said, that a person 271 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 5: who has been radicalized to think women are the enemy 272 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 5: and I am the victim and women should be put 273 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 5: in their place would also be susceptible to further radicalization. Indeed, 274 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 5: reports have shown that alt rate leaders do active recruitment 275 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 5: in the manosphere because of this very premise. 276 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 2: What about young women. I mean, this four beer movement 277 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 2: does feel a little radical in some ways as well. 278 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 2: I mean I've seen tiktoks with women talking quite positively 279 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 2: about serial killer Eileen Wernos, for example. 280 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 1: I do it's quite interesting because I do think, you know, 281 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 1: every action is a reaction. So when we think about 282 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: the rise of manisphere and the rise of misogynistic anti 283 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: feminist ideology, you know, that comes in reaction to the 284 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 1: gains of feminism and the rising status potentially of once 285 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,199 Speaker 1: marginalized groups, you know, women for example. But there's the 286 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: sense that for many young men, the sense of anxiety 287 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: that comes along with that, just a shifting status order 288 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: where they're not sure where they fit and where they 289 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: do have real struggles with mental health, cost of living, unemployment, 290 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 1: these kinds of things. But then, of course the four 291 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 1: B movement is a reaction to that misogyny as well. 292 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 1: And I think a lot of girls and young women 293 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 1: well feel liberated by this, and well feel that it 294 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: is a way to dip into their own autonomy and 295 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,159 Speaker 1: their own equality and their own freedom, and actually that 296 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: they don't necessarily need men or the approval of men 297 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 1: to be happy. And I think that there is a 298 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 1: way to see it becoming a bit more radical, particularly 299 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: in the reaction that is going to come back against it. 300 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: And that's what I'm quite concerned about, is the reaction 301 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 1: to the four BE Movement from those manisphere misogynistic spaces. 302 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: But I do do you think it's also important to 303 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: acknowledge that the real difference between these two kind of 304 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 1: opposing groups, the four BE Movement versus these misogynistic movements, 305 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 1: is that the four BE movement is really about championing equality, autonomy, 306 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 1: and right, whereas these misogynistic movements are not about that 307 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 1: at all. They're more about control. So they're not really 308 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: comparable in that sense. They're very different goals. 309 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 2: How can we prepare our young men and women for 310 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 2: the future and how to navigate this kind of online 311 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 2: environment because these newer generations have grown up in quite 312 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 2: a unique set of circumstances, right, they've grown up online, 313 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:48,719 Speaker 2: They've had access to information but also misinformation disinformation more 314 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 2: than any other generation before them. How do we actually 315 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 2: sit down and give them the tools to try and 316 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:54,919 Speaker 2: navigate it. 317 00:19:55,640 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 1: I really think the only way through is communication. We 318 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: need to have really frank conversations with our young people 319 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: about what's going on in the worlds that they are 320 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 1: a part of. Listen to them as well. It is 321 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,120 Speaker 1: really important give them, give them the opportunity to talk 322 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: about what it is that they're saying and what it 323 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: is that they are coming to believe or understand about 324 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: the world. I think often, and what I've found in 325 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: my own research is given the opportunity to talk through 326 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: our ideas, we start to hear the nuance of our ideas, 327 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: or we start to hear the ways that we maybe 328 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: don't necessarily agree with those perspectives. But often it's only 329 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: in the talking that we get to hear that. So 330 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: communicating listening to young people is really really important. Also, 331 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 1: I think educating young people being very open about how 332 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 1: these algorithmic technologies work, so that they start to realize 333 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: that if they're in these spaces, it's not necessarily because 334 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: of their own free will show them, teach them how 335 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: these algorithms work, Teach them about what the platforms are 336 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 1: getting out of their engagement, so that they have more 337 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: of a sense of whether they actually want to be 338 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 1: engaged or not. And one thing that I have found 339 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: which is really heartening is actually a lot of young 340 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 1: people are turning off social media. They get to a 341 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,199 Speaker 1: point and they realize that they're not as in charge 342 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: of their own lives as they ought to be or 343 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: they thought they were, and they're starting to switch off. 344 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: So my real hope is that more and more young 345 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: people will start to switch off. 346 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Rachel. 347 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: Thank you, Chelsea. Lovely to be here. 348 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 349 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 350 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 2: at enzadherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 351 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Sells and Richard Martin, who is also 352 00:21:53,880 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 2: a sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front 353 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 2: Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and 354 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 2: tune in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.