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Speaker 1: All right, on the huddle of this evening we have Trius,

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Speaker 1: Shirst and Josie Pagani. Trush's obviously with Shirton Willis pr

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Speaker 1: and Josie's with Child Fund CEO. There hire you too, Hello, Josie.

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Speaker 1: What do you think we do about this? I mean,

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Speaker 1: if money, we're never going to beat the Chinese on money.

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Speaker 1: So is the nuclear option here to take away citizenship rights?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think you've got to take a step back.

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Speaker 2: So they've obviously got stuck in a stalemate here and

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Speaker 2: neither's backing down. And the mistake that Mark Brown has

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Speaker 2: made is the lack of consultation. Right, So in the

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Speaker 2: realm countries in New Zealand, we have we have you know,

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Speaker 2: we have some territory which is the ross dependence in

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Speaker 2: the Antarctica. We've got a dependent territory in Tokelau. And

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Speaker 2: then our relationship with the Cooks is sort of free association.

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Speaker 2: We do the foreign policy basically, yeah, but there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of sort of debate over how far that goes

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Speaker 2: and so on. So so yes, Mark Brown's made a

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Speaker 2: mistake in not consulting with us, because that's part of

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Speaker 2: our constitutional arrangement. But there's a need, you know, I

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Speaker 2: think New Zealand needs to take a deep breath too,

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Speaker 2: because you know, what have they done? They've signed a

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Speaker 2: deal with China. Well so have we. China's our biggest

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Speaker 2: trading partner. It's not like the Cooks have suddenly decided

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Speaker 2: to go nuclear and build a nuclear power station or something.

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Speaker 2: And we're not at war with China. So let's take

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Speaker 2: a step and yet, God, what do you know that

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Speaker 2: I don't want we come on?

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Speaker 1: I mean, like we are obviously operating in an environment

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Speaker 1: where China is going to take Taiwan at some stage

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Speaker 1: and we're going to have to be potentially on a

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Speaker 1: war footing.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but we've also got clearly us a very good

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Speaker 2: job internationally of kind of hedging, right. We try not

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Speaker 2: to pick sides between you know, the China blocks.

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Speaker 1: This is about China setting up bases across the Pacific,

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Speaker 1: and depending on how this has rolled out, what's so

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Speaker 1: I tell you, I'm sure they're not going to set

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Speaker 1: one up in the Cooks.

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Speaker 2: Maybe they are, but you've also got to realize that

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Speaker 2: even though we had this free association with the Cooks,

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Speaker 2: the Cooks are independent countries and even the cook can't

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Speaker 2: exist stuff free associations, so we can't. We can't do

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Speaker 2: this slightly patronizing thing of going, oh, you're our backyard,

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Speaker 2: and you know you can't do it deal with China

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Speaker 2: just we've done a deal with China. So I think

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Speaker 2: the answer here is not to go, don't do a

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Speaker 2: deal with China. It's to go, why are they doing one?

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Speaker 2: They're doing it because China says, right, we'll build your port.

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Speaker 2: That's what you want, So why aren't we doing that

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Speaker 2: with our aid money? And what's often what happens is

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Speaker 2: with our aid money, we tend to go in and go,

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Speaker 2: we've got a great idea for you, and we'll do

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Speaker 2: this in the Pacific. Why don't we listen to them

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Speaker 2: and go, actually, we'll do the thing you want us

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Speaker 2: to and we'll beat China because we've got better relationships

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Speaker 2: than you, not more money, better relationships, Jo.

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Speaker 3: Trash, I think this is the right tactic from Peter's.

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Speaker 3: It's a ratcheting up of the pressure, but it's proportionate

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Speaker 3: and targeted. I don't think you want to use citizenship

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Speaker 3: as part of the realm, as you don't want to

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Speaker 3: politicize it. And let's face it, we if we play

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Speaker 3: that card, we have completely lost the last thing. We

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Speaker 3: have completely lost that We've got one.

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Speaker 2: Hundred thousand new Zealanders of Cogan and descent here.

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Speaker 3: That's right. So I think that the other thing is

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Speaker 3: obviously citizenship is constitutionally embedded, so that that is that

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Speaker 3: is fraught and difficult, and we need these lines of

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Speaker 3: communication open there that there is a there is a

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Speaker 3: fracture here at the moment, but it's not a rupture.

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Speaker 3: And I think we want to keep our can completely,

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Speaker 3: keep our options open because to your point, if if

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Speaker 3: the direction of travel is as you say, if we

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Speaker 3: revoked citizenship now, then it is absolutely open slava for

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Speaker 3: the Chinese or anyone else to go in and really,

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Speaker 3: you know, effectively take over our role with the Long Islands.

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Speaker 2: I think what's really sad about this is that Mark

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Speaker 2: Brown when he came in, he's been in for a

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Speaker 2: few years now, he came in with a real strong

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Speaker 2: drive for economic development and the Cooks and you know,

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Speaker 2: how are we going to make our own money get

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Speaker 2: off being dependent on aid? And he actually succeeded in that,

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Speaker 2: you know, the Cook Islands lifted themselves out of being

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Speaker 2: tasked a class as a developing country and they became

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Speaker 2: a mid level developed country that's now gone down again.

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Speaker 2: So you know, he's got all the right intentions, and

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Speaker 2: part of this China deal is trying to cement that

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Speaker 2: right yea port and economic development stuff.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I hope the city I take your point right,

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Speaker 1: see it from their point of view, rather than imposing

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Speaker 1: our values on them. Trisha, there's a text here that says,

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Speaker 1: this is Apropos, A and Z making two point five

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Speaker 1: billion dollars profits gone up nearly twenty percent private business,

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Speaker 1: the CEO's remunerations, the shareholder's business, no one else's. I

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Speaker 1: feel much like that. I'm stressed about this.

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Speaker 3: I absolutely agree with that, and I think often in

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Speaker 3: these debates we lose that proportionality and around this debate

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Speaker 3: that this ongoing, it's not even a debate, but we

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Speaker 3: make statements about people's remuneration, especially these big CEOs. Unless

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Speaker 3: you are one of those CEOs or you have seen

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Speaker 3: them working up close, you really have no idea of

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Speaker 3: the responsibilities they carry and the flesh and blood that

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Speaker 3: they have to give to get that that salary. And

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Speaker 3: it is up to shareholders if they view that that

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Speaker 3: that that person is up to that value. I think

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Speaker 3: we need a much more mature conversation around it, and

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Speaker 3: in fact, I would love it if we never ever

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Speaker 3: again saw one of these knee jerk you know, headlines

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Speaker 3: about and also credit to Antonio. I heard her on

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Speaker 3: the show earlier and I thought the way that she

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Speaker 3: spoke to that, she didn't shy away, she owned it.

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Speaker 3: It's a It's a real mark of her leadership, I think.

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Speaker 3: I think.

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Speaker 1: So, hey, Josie, hang going to take and we'll get

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Speaker 1: your take after the break. It's back with the huddle, right, Josie,

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Speaker 1: what's your take.

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Speaker 2: On the salaries. Look, I don't mind people being paid

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Speaker 2: what they're worth of their making making a lot of

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Speaker 2: money for the company. I think what New Zealanders don't

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Speaker 2: like is when you find out that you know, the

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Speaker 2: former head of Fonterra who lost god knows how many

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Speaker 2: million was paid, you know, and the job, and the

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Speaker 2: same with you know, Fletcher Building. Whether it's it so,

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Speaker 2: I think it's just it's more that there's just this

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Speaker 2: sort of auto feel that you kind of just get

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Speaker 2: more money if you're in those roles. But with the

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Speaker 2: bank's profits, you know, part of the problem here is

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Speaker 2: that they're making a profit when we're in one of

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Speaker 2: the worst recessions in a long time. Insolvencies have gone

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Speaker 2: up about one thousand percent, unemployment's gone up, so it's

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Speaker 2: not really a sign that the economy is doing well.

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Speaker 2: I don't believe that. And I also think, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's still a problem in the lack of competition in

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Speaker 2: the banking sector. I mean, ninety percent are Australian owned banks.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: Looking fixes Nicola fix at six o'clock she will, We'll

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Speaker 1: ask her about that. Okay, Trish, what do you think

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Speaker 1: happens next with the Maori Party? Do they because t

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Speaker 1: udoroff Level was on the show earlier said he thinks

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Speaker 1: that they're going to go for the walker jumping law.

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Speaker 1: Do they do that?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's a it's a very critical strategic question for

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Speaker 3: to Party Maori and here's why. So invoking the walker

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Speaker 3: jumping bill is easy for them, that's the easy part.

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Speaker 3: So what they have to do is they have to

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Speaker 3: get two thirds of their caucus to agree. They take

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Speaker 3: it to Speaker Brownly as long as they've followed the

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Speaker 3: proceeds and they've got the two thirds effectively, he then

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Speaker 3: rubber stamps it right, so that then triggers vacancy of

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Speaker 3: seats and two by elections. Here's the tricky bit for

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Speaker 3: to Party Malori. You are a tiny party. You are

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Speaker 3: absolutely fractured. We know they've got no dough and their

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Speaker 3: bleeding members because of all the disunity. If they go

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Speaker 3: for two by elections before the general election, I would

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Speaker 3: put money on it that Mariomeenno and Taku Taku would

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Speaker 3: stand again. So to Party Malori would have to stand

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Speaker 3: candidates against those two. And who else is going to

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Speaker 3: want those seats? Lay Labor Labour wants those seats back.

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Speaker 3: That would be an absolute gift to Labor. And if

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Speaker 3: Labor could win them in two by elections before the

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Speaker 3: general election, highly likely they will win them again in

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Speaker 3: the general election. And so to Party Mali would have

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Speaker 3: actually put a risk two very valuable seats.

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Speaker 2: So the alternative then is that they end up in

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Speaker 2: parliament within a sense to Maru parties and then they've

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Speaker 2: got to differentiate themselves. And I think this point you

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Speaker 2: were making, Heather is it's hard to see what the

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Speaker 2: differences between Rahwari and Debbi and Takuta and Maria Mino.

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Speaker 1: Can a difference be that Maria Meno and Takuta because

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Speaker 1: they will not be They're not trying to become part

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Speaker 1: of a labor led government, so they can afford to

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Speaker 1: be as radical as you like, whereas these are the lot.

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Speaker 1: Now I have to tack a little bit to the same.

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Speaker 2: And I think both both parties. I'm already calling them

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Speaker 2: two parties, and I want to kind of feel that

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Speaker 2: this is a positive thing, that Mary politics is fracturing

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Speaker 2: in a way that it is healthy. Right, it's got

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Speaker 2: one voice for Mari. But it just feels like you've

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Speaker 2: got two basically ethno nationalist parties, that's what you've got.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I mean Takuta said during the by election,

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Speaker 2: you know he doesn't want Paquiera and Indians and sind

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Speaker 2: Islanders voting in a Mari Electric. Well now it seems

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Speaker 2: there are some Mari who don't want mar to vote

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Speaker 2: in a Mari Electric.

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Speaker 1: So it's just not getting very confusing.

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Speaker 2: It's a bit like you know, the People's Judaea's Front

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Speaker 2: against the Judaea's People's Front. But I would hope I

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Speaker 2: think you're right. I think it might push to party

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Speaker 2: Mari into being the parliamentary voice of Mary again and

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Speaker 2: they start to be a little bit more respectful of

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Speaker 2: parliament and maybe it pushes whatever party Takuza and Goniameno

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Speaker 2: decide to call themselves into being the kind of radical

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Speaker 2: out of parliament parties and they'll be gone.

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Speaker 3: Well the risk is for them though, and I think

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Speaker 3: this is actually a high likelihood now voters, it doesn't

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Speaker 3: matter what stripe they are, they publish. They punish disunity

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Speaker 3: the hardest, and I think that their reality to Party

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Speaker 3: Maria is steering down now is that they could lose

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Speaker 3: their party being in parliament totally. I don't think anyone

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Speaker 3: in that party currently understands what it takes to get

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Speaker 3: an activist grouping and actually get it into parliament, like

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Speaker 3: Tariana did and like Peta Sharpouls did and.

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Speaker 2: Bring he sounded great, Well, it's so reasonable.

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Speaker 3: There's only one party that has managed to come back

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Speaker 3: from being out of parliament, and that's New Zealand first.

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Speaker 3: They've done it twice. But as we know Winston Peters,

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Speaker 3: he defies political gravity. So the likelihood of that happening

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Speaker 3: for to party Mary is, I think is very low.

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Speaker 3: And I've heard from several people over the weekend who

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Speaker 3: are in and around this and have been working behind

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Speaker 3: the scenes for party Marie for years. They are heartbroken

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Speaker 3: at what's happening because they can see the very live

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Speaker 3: possibility that they're.

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Speaker 2: Going to lose everything that was always going to happen.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I like that quote that Penni said during

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Speaker 2: the last by election where he said they need more action,

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Speaker 2: less hucker and that's the problem.

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Speaker 1: All right, guys have spreadfast, by the way, just quickly.

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Speaker 1: Does John Thamahay need to go? Will he goes?

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Speaker 2: Guy?

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to say.

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Speaker 3: What I'm going to say is I think from a

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Speaker 3: unity point of view, he he does, and to allow

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Speaker 3: the party to move on. I think financially the party

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Speaker 3: is tied to John Tomaheery and that's why he's staying in.

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Speaker 2: And it's also got you know, Raweri is his son

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Speaker 2: in law, his daughter's you know, involved in party.

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Speaker 1: It's me It's messy, all right, guys, thanks, thank you

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Speaker 1: very much, appreciate it. Trish Sheerson Joseph beganni our huddle

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Speaker 1: this evenings. For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive listen

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Speaker 1: live to news talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays,

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Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio