1 00:00:09,093 --> 00:00:11,973 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks at B. 2 00:00:12,373 --> 00:00:16,173 Speaker 1: Follow this and our Wide Ranger podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:19,373 --> 00:00:32,613 Speaker 2: Straight down the Middle of Trumps Guy, try. 4 00:00:28,733 --> 00:00:32,413 Speaker 1: To get inside the game from every end goal. It's 5 00:00:32,533 --> 00:00:36,333 Speaker 1: Rugby Direct with Elliott Smith and Liam Napier, powered by 6 00:00:36,373 --> 00:00:37,173 Speaker 1: News Talks EDB. 7 00:00:38,013 --> 00:00:41,533 Speaker 2: Welcome into Rugby Direct power by Access Solutions, celebrating twenty 8 00:00:41,613 --> 00:00:45,893 Speaker 2: five years in business. Elliott Smith with me, Liam Napier. 9 00:00:45,973 --> 00:00:48,293 Speaker 2: We are back. I had resolved not to do any 10 00:00:48,333 --> 00:00:52,493 Speaker 2: podcast in January, and this is the third we are 11 00:00:52,533 --> 00:00:56,973 Speaker 2: doing on Rugby Direct, a quasi emergency podcast. Once again, 12 00:00:57,773 --> 00:01:00,573 Speaker 2: back in front of each other in the same room 13 00:01:00,653 --> 00:01:03,013 Speaker 2: for the first time in twenty twenty six. Greetings Liam, 14 00:01:03,293 --> 00:01:04,893 Speaker 2: it has been one heck of an off season. 15 00:01:05,333 --> 00:01:11,013 Speaker 3: It has great to see Elliott of most complexion, a 16 00:01:11,053 --> 00:01:12,213 Speaker 3: little bit of a tad coming through. 17 00:01:12,253 --> 00:01:13,813 Speaker 2: I've been in Melbourne last week. He's a bit of 18 00:01:13,813 --> 00:01:14,173 Speaker 2: a tanner. 19 00:01:14,253 --> 00:01:14,693 Speaker 3: Looking good. 20 00:01:14,733 --> 00:01:14,973 Speaker 2: Thanks. 21 00:01:15,213 --> 00:01:16,093 Speaker 3: Yeah, how's your back in? 22 00:01:16,573 --> 00:01:18,653 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's improving, it's improving. Out of sight, how was 23 00:01:18,653 --> 00:01:21,933 Speaker 2: your camping holiday? Some rudely interrupted by various things. 24 00:01:22,293 --> 00:01:28,253 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll send the check to Zilla Rugby interrupting that 25 00:01:28,253 --> 00:01:30,573 Speaker 3: that excursion. Yes, the phone was running hot. 26 00:01:30,733 --> 00:01:32,813 Speaker 2: But it was well, let's touch on that first and foremost, 27 00:01:32,813 --> 00:01:36,693 Speaker 2: because we haven't spoken to you about your reaction to 28 00:01:36,693 --> 00:01:39,973 Speaker 2: Scott Robertson leaving his post sacked as All Blacks coach. 29 00:01:40,013 --> 00:01:42,213 Speaker 2: I mean, it's coming on two weeks almost now, but 30 00:01:43,013 --> 00:01:45,733 Speaker 2: you were the first person to break the story around 31 00:01:46,213 --> 00:01:49,093 Speaker 2: the review and the nature of the feedback that was 32 00:01:49,133 --> 00:01:51,373 Speaker 2: being given to Scott Robertson and the fact that there 33 00:01:51,373 --> 00:01:53,253 Speaker 2: had to be some decisions made. We'll less than twenty 34 00:01:53,293 --> 00:01:55,453 Speaker 2: four hours later there was a big decision made and 35 00:01:55,453 --> 00:01:58,093 Speaker 2: Scott Robinson was out as the All Blacks coach. What 36 00:01:58,173 --> 00:02:00,493 Speaker 2: was your reaction as that popped up and you're in 37 00:02:00,533 --> 00:02:01,693 Speaker 2: box and Wayhi. 38 00:02:02,813 --> 00:02:05,413 Speaker 3: Yeah, things move quickly, didn't they. I guess if you 39 00:02:05,453 --> 00:02:08,493 Speaker 3: go back to the back end of last year, it 40 00:02:08,533 --> 00:02:11,333 Speaker 3: was very evident, certainly from what I was hearing about 41 00:02:11,453 --> 00:02:14,493 Speaker 3: discontent within that camp, and that came through loud and 42 00:02:14,493 --> 00:02:17,973 Speaker 3: clear in the review from I think it's sixteen to 43 00:02:17,973 --> 00:02:24,013 Speaker 3: twenty players that were interviewed by that panel, and look, 44 00:02:24,453 --> 00:02:25,893 Speaker 3: i'd heard at the back end of last year it 45 00:02:25,933 --> 00:02:28,093 Speaker 3: was fifty to fifty where the razor would keep his job. 46 00:02:28,693 --> 00:02:31,333 Speaker 3: I probably at that point expected him to be given 47 00:02:31,373 --> 00:02:35,173 Speaker 3: more time, and that's I think the emergency pod we did. 48 00:02:35,173 --> 00:02:37,973 Speaker 3: We touched on maybe there would be changes to the 49 00:02:38,013 --> 00:02:42,093 Speaker 3: assistance because that's the route that we'd seen explored previously 50 00:02:42,133 --> 00:02:45,653 Speaker 3: with Ian Foster. And then we had the breaking news 51 00:02:46,333 --> 00:02:50,173 Speaker 3: from Rory in the Irish Independence that Razor was gone, 52 00:02:50,693 --> 00:02:54,653 Speaker 3: and I think there was widespread surprise. First and foremost, 53 00:02:54,733 --> 00:03:00,253 Speaker 3: that's such a decision, such a decisive decision had been taken, 54 00:03:00,813 --> 00:03:03,853 Speaker 3: and now they're on the hunt for a new coach. 55 00:03:04,813 --> 00:03:07,013 Speaker 3: I guess if we touch on just the decision first 56 00:03:07,053 --> 00:03:09,493 Speaker 3: and foremost, do you think it's the right one? 57 00:03:09,933 --> 00:03:13,533 Speaker 2: I think it probably is. I think they had to 58 00:03:13,573 --> 00:03:16,613 Speaker 2: make a decision given what you're presented in your column, 59 00:03:16,733 --> 00:03:19,653 Speaker 2: given what we had observed on that end of year tour, 60 00:03:20,173 --> 00:03:22,773 Speaker 2: and given the strides that hadn't been made in this 61 00:03:22,813 --> 00:03:25,333 Speaker 2: all Black team over the last two years. You know, 62 00:03:25,453 --> 00:03:27,613 Speaker 2: David Kirk used the word trajectory a lot in that 63 00:03:27,693 --> 00:03:30,133 Speaker 2: media conference when he announced it, and it's hard to 64 00:03:30,133 --> 00:03:32,133 Speaker 2: disagree with him. You couldn't see the trajectory that they 65 00:03:32,173 --> 00:03:34,893 Speaker 2: were on a path forward to win the Rugby World 66 00:03:34,933 --> 00:03:38,373 Speaker 2: Cup twenty twenty seven, and with the Rugby's Greatest Rivalry 67 00:03:38,373 --> 00:03:41,373 Speaker 2: Tour looming this year. They have not a lot of 68 00:03:41,413 --> 00:03:45,253 Speaker 2: runway to get things right and it felt like I 69 00:03:45,253 --> 00:03:47,453 Speaker 2: don't know how much the Rugby Wild Cup drawer played 70 00:03:47,453 --> 00:03:49,733 Speaker 2: in it as well the fact that they might land 71 00:03:49,773 --> 00:03:53,053 Speaker 2: a quarter final against South Africa, but it just felt 72 00:03:53,093 --> 00:03:56,493 Speaker 2: like they had to make a decisive decision and with 73 00:03:56,733 --> 00:03:59,133 Speaker 2: this would have come under previous New Zealand rugby management. 74 00:03:59,173 --> 00:04:02,093 Speaker 2: I don't know, but I think it's hard to mount 75 00:04:02,133 --> 00:04:05,813 Speaker 2: the case for Scott Robertson to have stuck in the job. 76 00:04:06,893 --> 00:04:08,573 Speaker 2: You know, you'd have to be pretty ardent, you know, 77 00:04:08,653 --> 00:04:10,573 Speaker 2: long time backer of Scott Robertson, and he's got a 78 00:04:10,573 --> 00:04:12,973 Speaker 2: few don't get me wrong, But I think they ultimately 79 00:04:13,013 --> 00:04:14,373 Speaker 2: probably have made the right call. 80 00:04:14,413 --> 00:04:17,213 Speaker 3: Now you've left the eyepatch at home, so they haven't I. 81 00:04:17,173 --> 00:04:20,213 Speaker 2: Have indeed now whether the right call has be made, 82 00:04:20,293 --> 00:04:22,413 Speaker 2: you know, will only be told in you know, the 83 00:04:22,453 --> 00:04:24,253 Speaker 2: fullness of time, by the time we get through this 84 00:04:24,333 --> 00:04:26,853 Speaker 2: year and in twenty twenty seven. But on the surface 85 00:04:26,893 --> 00:04:29,493 Speaker 2: of it, I actually don't mind the call from New 86 00:04:29,573 --> 00:04:32,053 Speaker 2: Zealand Rugby to go this actually isn't good enough. The 87 00:04:32,053 --> 00:04:35,413 Speaker 2: all Black ra brand that are breaking in the dollars 88 00:04:35,453 --> 00:04:37,573 Speaker 2: we need, but also they need to be winning it 89 00:04:37,613 --> 00:04:40,453 Speaker 2: a certain percentage, so I don't mind the ruthless call 90 00:04:40,493 --> 00:04:40,693 Speaker 2: of it. 91 00:04:42,093 --> 00:04:45,933 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's been a lot made of player power, player revolts, 92 00:04:46,173 --> 00:04:51,333 Speaker 3: whatever you want to term it, but I think it's 93 00:04:51,733 --> 00:04:54,453 Speaker 3: largely has come to pass that Razor lost the dressing 94 00:04:54,533 --> 00:04:58,013 Speaker 3: room and New Zealan Rugby clearly felt like he wasn't 95 00:04:58,013 --> 00:05:01,493 Speaker 3: going to get it back, and that's subtle. Tweaks, whether 96 00:05:01,533 --> 00:05:07,173 Speaker 3: they be assistants or mediation or whatever it might have been, 97 00:05:07,893 --> 00:05:10,213 Speaker 3: could have ended that, and that's why they arrived at 98 00:05:10,453 --> 00:05:14,373 Speaker 3: this resolution. I think it is probably the right call, 99 00:05:15,973 --> 00:05:20,213 Speaker 3: but it's now cumbersome on them to come up with 100 00:05:20,253 --> 00:05:24,413 Speaker 3: something better, isn't it. And the dominoes are really falling. 101 00:05:24,893 --> 00:05:28,853 Speaker 3: Tony Brown is committed to the spring Box, to the 102 00:05:28,893 --> 00:05:33,573 Speaker 3: World Cup, Joe Schmidt is committed to the Wallabies, and 103 00:05:33,653 --> 00:05:37,053 Speaker 3: so we're at a situation really Verncotta is going to Australia. 104 00:05:37,053 --> 00:05:39,413 Speaker 3: I don't think he would necessarily would have ever been 105 00:05:39,413 --> 00:05:41,973 Speaker 3: the head coach, but I think he was probably in 106 00:05:42,013 --> 00:05:45,493 Speaker 3: the discussions to be part of a wider coaching team maybe, 107 00:05:46,333 --> 00:05:48,693 Speaker 3: And so you're pretty much down to a two horse race. 108 00:05:48,773 --> 00:05:51,973 Speaker 3: Dave Rennie and Jamie Joseph. I think one of the 109 00:05:52,013 --> 00:05:55,173 Speaker 3: other big points about this is it's not just on 110 00:05:55,253 --> 00:05:58,493 Speaker 3: field performance and the trajectory you mentioned and the lack 111 00:05:58,533 --> 00:06:03,613 Speaker 3: of improvements and the worries about what's to come, but 112 00:06:03,773 --> 00:06:08,813 Speaker 3: I think fundamentally the culture within that team wasn't good. Yeah, 113 00:06:08,893 --> 00:06:14,213 Speaker 3: And whether that be from an inclusive nature, whether that 114 00:06:14,293 --> 00:06:19,453 Speaker 3: be communication, trust, there was a real breakdown in relationships. 115 00:06:19,813 --> 00:06:22,533 Speaker 2: Yeah. There was similar things that I've heard, and I 116 00:06:22,573 --> 00:06:25,173 Speaker 2: think we touched on it when we did the emergency 117 00:06:25,173 --> 00:06:28,173 Speaker 2: pot a couple of weeks back with you that there 118 00:06:28,173 --> 00:06:31,493 Speaker 2: had been in previous regimes a lot of player empowerment 119 00:06:31,613 --> 00:06:34,493 Speaker 2: to drive a lot of the game plan basically was 120 00:06:34,533 --> 00:06:38,413 Speaker 2: handed off round about Thursday to the team, right, the 121 00:06:38,453 --> 00:06:40,453 Speaker 2: coaches had done their job. Now it's the players to 122 00:06:41,093 --> 00:06:45,013 Speaker 2: lead us through from Thursday through to the final whistle 123 00:06:45,053 --> 00:06:47,933 Speaker 2: on Saturday night, And it felt like that had been 124 00:06:48,893 --> 00:06:53,213 Speaker 2: removed in this regime. You know, obviously coaches are empowered 125 00:06:53,213 --> 00:06:55,213 Speaker 2: to run things the way they want, but it felt 126 00:06:55,253 --> 00:06:59,093 Speaker 2: like what coaches and players we used to from the 127 00:06:59,133 --> 00:07:02,733 Speaker 2: previous environment hadn't been carried over, and it felt like 128 00:07:02,773 --> 00:07:05,253 Speaker 2: the players were feeling that like they didn't have a 129 00:07:05,333 --> 00:07:07,173 Speaker 2: say in things that they felt that they should have. 130 00:07:07,893 --> 00:07:11,293 Speaker 3: Yeah, the player power for one of a better term 131 00:07:11,613 --> 00:07:15,613 Speaker 3: is not anything new in a modern sporting world. The 132 00:07:15,653 --> 00:07:18,973 Speaker 3: players were instrumental in the All Blacks and En Foster 133 00:07:19,093 --> 00:07:22,253 Speaker 3: retaining his posts through to the twenty twenty three World Cup. 134 00:07:22,373 --> 00:07:25,413 Speaker 3: It's just this was a very different vibe that the 135 00:07:25,453 --> 00:07:30,173 Speaker 3: complete opposite. Right. They a large number of senior players 136 00:07:30,453 --> 00:07:36,613 Speaker 3: didn't want to play for Razor effectively and where they 137 00:07:36,653 --> 00:07:40,733 Speaker 3: went into bat massively for Ian Foster and so one 138 00:07:40,773 --> 00:07:43,373 Speaker 3: had a positive effect on the head coach and one didn't. 139 00:07:43,453 --> 00:07:49,653 Speaker 3: So and that's two years apart. So that's player involvements. 140 00:07:49,853 --> 00:07:52,613 Speaker 3: Player influence is nothing new. That that wasn't the sole 141 00:07:52,693 --> 00:07:55,693 Speaker 3: reason for Raiser being pushed out, but I think it 142 00:07:55,813 --> 00:08:00,693 Speaker 3: was certainly the major driving factor, alongside the on field performance. 143 00:08:00,733 --> 00:08:02,613 Speaker 2: If they'd gone through the last two years and maybe 144 00:08:02,693 --> 00:08:05,573 Speaker 2: dropped one or two games combined or whatever it might be, 145 00:08:05,773 --> 00:08:08,293 Speaker 2: and there was elements of players being unhappy, they probably 146 00:08:08,413 --> 00:08:10,053 Speaker 2: would have stuck with him. But you can bind those 147 00:08:10,133 --> 00:08:12,653 Speaker 2: two things, and I suspect they had a recipe to go, 148 00:08:13,413 --> 00:08:15,413 Speaker 2: we've got to change something here in this All Blacks 149 00:08:15,493 --> 00:08:18,933 Speaker 2: environment and it was interesting. Rory o'connorho you touched on before. 150 00:08:18,933 --> 00:08:21,413 Speaker 2: He has done some exceptional work on the story out 151 00:08:21,413 --> 00:08:25,773 Speaker 2: of Ireland, and he did a piece yesterday around how 152 00:08:25,813 --> 00:08:31,173 Speaker 2: it unfolded, and it suggested that Scott Robertson was surprised 153 00:08:31,213 --> 00:08:33,213 Speaker 2: by the fact that there been some negative feedback that 154 00:08:33,293 --> 00:08:36,813 Speaker 2: Artie Savia was one of the key people pushing back 155 00:08:36,853 --> 00:08:42,013 Speaker 2: against the Scott Robertson regime. I guess Artie's role in 156 00:08:42,053 --> 00:08:43,893 Speaker 2: all this he has been stuck up as a figurehead 157 00:08:43,933 --> 00:08:46,133 Speaker 2: of this. David was quick to play it down at 158 00:08:46,133 --> 00:08:48,493 Speaker 2: the media conference when it happened. But where does this 159 00:08:48,613 --> 00:08:51,093 Speaker 2: leave you know? I guess Artie save going forward in 160 00:08:51,093 --> 00:08:53,213 Speaker 2: the All Black's environment, given there'll be talks as you 161 00:08:53,333 --> 00:08:56,613 Speaker 2: reported that maybe you wouldn't come back to the All Blacks. 162 00:08:56,933 --> 00:09:00,773 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, Rory reported, which is what I've heard as well, 163 00:09:00,813 --> 00:09:06,213 Speaker 3: that Artie was unhappy on that Northern touring and considered leaving. 164 00:09:06,973 --> 00:09:10,453 Speaker 3: And I had heard that Lard he had explored the 165 00:09:10,493 --> 00:09:14,653 Speaker 3: possibility of staying with Kobe, of going to Europe potentially 166 00:09:14,813 --> 00:09:17,573 Speaker 3: and as Rory reporter, which I had heard as well, 167 00:09:17,613 --> 00:09:22,293 Speaker 3: that he was potentially looking at R three sixty. So 168 00:09:22,413 --> 00:09:24,533 Speaker 3: I think there was a cloud over his All Black 169 00:09:24,533 --> 00:09:27,653 Speaker 3: future with Razor as coach New Zealand Rugby. Adamant that 170 00:09:28,053 --> 00:09:31,053 Speaker 3: he is contracted to twenty twenty seven and that he 171 00:09:31,133 --> 00:09:37,773 Speaker 3: was always returning home, but I'm one hundred percent certain 172 00:09:37,933 --> 00:09:41,613 Speaker 3: that he played a role, that he was not alone, 173 00:09:41,933 --> 00:09:45,293 Speaker 3: that a number of senior players are unhappy, and my 174 00:09:46,173 --> 00:09:49,613 Speaker 3: original report before Razor was pushed out, I also mentioned 175 00:09:49,653 --> 00:09:54,053 Speaker 3: one senior Blues player declined an invitation to go from 176 00:09:54,093 --> 00:09:57,413 Speaker 3: the All Blacks fifteen to the All Blacks in their 177 00:09:57,453 --> 00:10:01,253 Speaker 3: final week in Cardiff, and so that speaks to the 178 00:10:01,293 --> 00:10:06,853 Speaker 3: wider breakdown in relationships of other players as well. Can 179 00:10:06,893 --> 00:10:10,533 Speaker 3: you recall another time recent history or all black history 180 00:10:10,573 --> 00:10:14,053 Speaker 3: when an All Black is said no thanks to joining 181 00:10:14,133 --> 00:10:14,693 Speaker 3: the All Blacks. 182 00:10:14,773 --> 00:10:17,653 Speaker 2: I mean, Bradthorne's probably the closest example, and that was 183 00:10:17,653 --> 00:10:20,253 Speaker 2: for different reasons back in what the early two thousand, 184 00:10:20,293 --> 00:10:22,093 Speaker 2: tw thousand and one, maybe off the top of my head, 185 00:10:22,133 --> 00:10:24,933 Speaker 2: I mean it's been a generation since something like that's happened. 186 00:10:25,013 --> 00:10:27,293 Speaker 2: That was really just a minor sort of thing. I'm 187 00:10:27,293 --> 00:10:30,213 Speaker 2: sure there were instances, and you know, the pre professional 188 00:10:30,253 --> 00:10:32,933 Speaker 2: era of things like this, and the coaching role was 189 00:10:32,973 --> 00:10:37,733 Speaker 2: certainly a lot different in those days. But I think, yeah, 190 00:10:37,773 --> 00:10:40,533 Speaker 2: it's been painted as player power in some quarters. I 191 00:10:40,533 --> 00:10:42,253 Speaker 2: don't know that it's necessarily true. It was not a 192 00:10:42,293 --> 00:10:45,453 Speaker 2: player of volt necessarily. This was a wide open review. 193 00:10:45,813 --> 00:10:48,653 Speaker 2: The questions that they were asked were fairly wide in 194 00:10:48,733 --> 00:10:51,853 Speaker 2: terms of the they were narrow focused in terms of 195 00:10:51,893 --> 00:10:54,653 Speaker 2: trying to find a certain answer. And this is what 196 00:10:54,693 --> 00:10:56,453 Speaker 2: it's come back with. It was one or two players, 197 00:10:56,493 --> 00:10:58,413 Speaker 2: they would have been able to, I'm sure, mediate that 198 00:10:58,493 --> 00:11:01,253 Speaker 2: out and figure out a way forward. When you've got 199 00:11:01,613 --> 00:11:03,773 Speaker 2: you know, a whole lot of players in one environment, 200 00:11:03,773 --> 00:11:07,253 Speaker 2: it paints an unhappy culture and something needed to be done. 201 00:11:07,293 --> 00:11:10,933 Speaker 2: And to David Kirk he said it wasn't the captain's call, 202 00:11:11,013 --> 00:11:12,893 Speaker 2: but I'm sure he very much had a big influence 203 00:11:12,933 --> 00:11:14,653 Speaker 2: that this is the decision that had to be made. 204 00:11:14,733 --> 00:11:17,973 Speaker 3: Oh massively, and particularly given the state that a state 205 00:11:18,013 --> 00:11:19,853 Speaker 3: of flux that New Zealand Rugby is in, without a 206 00:11:19,853 --> 00:11:24,893 Speaker 3: permanent CEO, without a chief commercial officer, without with their 207 00:11:24,933 --> 00:11:30,813 Speaker 3: high performance manager leaving as well. So Kirk is effectively 208 00:11:30,893 --> 00:11:34,493 Speaker 3: running the show, just as Hamish mcclennan did across the 209 00:11:34,533 --> 00:11:37,453 Speaker 3: Ditch in Australia and Yeah, the New Zealand Rugby board 210 00:11:37,453 --> 00:11:39,893 Speaker 3: would have had to sign off and had final say 211 00:11:39,933 --> 00:11:44,093 Speaker 3: on any of these decisions, but I think Kirk is 212 00:11:44,733 --> 00:11:48,933 Speaker 3: fully carrying the can and as mentioned before, it's now 213 00:11:48,973 --> 00:11:51,413 Speaker 3: on him and New Zealand Rugby to come up with 214 00:11:52,253 --> 00:11:56,813 Speaker 3: a more complete, compelling package as an all black coaching team. 215 00:11:56,853 --> 00:11:58,853 Speaker 3: The other the other point, which hasn't really been touched 216 00:11:58,893 --> 00:12:01,853 Speaker 3: on a lot, is this is going to cost New 217 00:12:01,933 --> 00:12:07,613 Speaker 3: Zealand Rugby. I think my understanding is as part of 218 00:12:07,653 --> 00:12:12,533 Speaker 3: the severance agreement, raised signed a non disclosure agreement, so 219 00:12:13,453 --> 00:12:15,373 Speaker 3: I can't speak about it, not just him, but others 220 00:12:15,413 --> 00:12:19,013 Speaker 3: as well, and I think they paid him out at 221 00:12:19,093 --> 00:12:23,093 Speaker 3: least a year salary. And it also raises questions about 222 00:12:23,093 --> 00:12:26,813 Speaker 3: his assistants. And we know that whoever comes in as 223 00:12:26,893 --> 00:12:29,093 Speaker 3: head coach, we'll be able to decide their assistance. But 224 00:12:30,253 --> 00:12:36,253 Speaker 3: for me right now, I think Jason Ryan I would 225 00:12:36,293 --> 00:12:40,493 Speaker 3: retain him. If Jamie Joseph comes in. I think Scott 226 00:12:40,533 --> 00:12:44,693 Speaker 3: Hansen would be potentially likely to stay on. He worked 227 00:12:44,733 --> 00:12:49,013 Speaker 3: with him in Japan. Not sure how that would go 228 00:12:49,093 --> 00:12:52,613 Speaker 3: down with some of the players, but I think that 229 00:12:53,053 --> 00:12:56,413 Speaker 3: the assistants would be very nervous right now Brent Hall. 230 00:12:56,493 --> 00:12:59,413 Speaker 3: I think Bryn Hall Brent Evans did a great job 231 00:12:59,413 --> 00:13:01,133 Speaker 3: with the line out this year, but a few of 232 00:13:01,133 --> 00:13:04,093 Speaker 3: those assistant coaches right now that you're very nervous about 233 00:13:04,133 --> 00:13:04,853 Speaker 3: your coaching future. 234 00:13:05,133 --> 00:13:08,853 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and Steve Lancaster said yes. And in the media 235 00:13:08,853 --> 00:13:11,053 Speaker 2: conference's business as usually. I suppose it has to be 236 00:13:11,053 --> 00:13:13,413 Speaker 2: because they've got to communicate with super rugby clubs around 237 00:13:13,493 --> 00:13:15,693 Speaker 2: and various things and how much minutes players can have 238 00:13:15,733 --> 00:13:18,893 Speaker 2: in preseason and what they're looking for. But people are 239 00:13:18,933 --> 00:13:20,693 Speaker 2: gone on why haven't they got rid of the assistants 240 00:13:20,733 --> 00:13:22,453 Speaker 2: as well. We'll just take a step back for a 241 00:13:22,453 --> 00:13:24,373 Speaker 2: second and go what if the new coach comes in 242 00:13:24,413 --> 00:13:25,973 Speaker 2: and goes, yep, I'll have those two, but I don't 243 00:13:26,013 --> 00:13:27,733 Speaker 2: want those too. If you got rid of them all 244 00:13:27,733 --> 00:13:30,253 Speaker 2: in one fell sweep when Razor lyft, you're basically paying 245 00:13:30,253 --> 00:13:32,533 Speaker 2: out these people and then bringing them back in. So 246 00:13:32,693 --> 00:13:34,533 Speaker 2: this is the only way that New Zealand Rugby could 247 00:13:34,533 --> 00:13:36,773 Speaker 2: have gone about it. But I think it's squeaky bum 248 00:13:36,773 --> 00:13:39,453 Speaker 2: time for those assistants because they're in a state of flux, 249 00:13:39,933 --> 00:13:41,933 Speaker 2: not knowing if they'll be employed in a couple of 250 00:13:41,973 --> 00:13:45,253 Speaker 2: months time. Do you if you're an assistant. Do you 251 00:13:45,293 --> 00:13:47,213 Speaker 2: go and try and get on one of the tickets? Now, 252 00:13:47,613 --> 00:13:50,053 Speaker 2: do you call up one of the prospective coaches and 253 00:13:50,733 --> 00:13:53,493 Speaker 2: plead your case and put your case forward. I don't 254 00:13:53,533 --> 00:13:55,613 Speaker 2: know how this all works, but it's going to be 255 00:13:55,613 --> 00:13:58,533 Speaker 2: fascinating to see how that parts unfolds, isn't it? 256 00:13:58,533 --> 00:14:01,413 Speaker 3: It is all right, let's get into it then. So 257 00:14:01,773 --> 00:14:05,813 Speaker 3: Jamie Joseph or Dave Rennie, as far as I'm concerned, 258 00:14:05,893 --> 00:14:08,333 Speaker 3: those are the That is pretty much it. 259 00:14:08,413 --> 00:14:09,813 Speaker 2: Vin quote. It might have been a dark horse, but 260 00:14:09,853 --> 00:14:11,853 Speaker 2: he's going to the Reds, which will touch on again 261 00:14:11,893 --> 00:14:14,173 Speaker 2: in a minute. But I think those are the only 262 00:14:14,213 --> 00:14:17,093 Speaker 2: two options. I mean, there are others that are eligible 263 00:14:17,173 --> 00:14:19,613 Speaker 2: under the criteria. You're Warren Gatlands of. 264 00:14:19,613 --> 00:14:24,333 Speaker 3: The World, Yeah, Karen Crowley, Wayne p. Vack, Robbie Deans essentially, 265 00:14:24,453 --> 00:14:26,053 Speaker 3: Tana Pat Lamb. 266 00:14:25,853 --> 00:14:27,213 Speaker 2: Made see Antony and Foster. 267 00:14:27,493 --> 00:14:31,933 Speaker 3: Yeah. But when you boil it down, I think at 268 00:14:31,933 --> 00:14:34,013 Speaker 3: this point, no one is sure whether Dave Rennie is 269 00:14:34,053 --> 00:14:37,373 Speaker 3: going to definitely apply, And a point I'm going to 270 00:14:37,413 --> 00:14:39,213 Speaker 3: make he is if he doesn't want the all Blacks job, 271 00:14:39,533 --> 00:14:41,493 Speaker 3: I think he could pretty much walk into the Blues. 272 00:14:43,133 --> 00:14:46,213 Speaker 3: But let's just say they both apply. Who you given 273 00:14:46,293 --> 00:14:49,173 Speaker 3: the job to, I. 274 00:14:49,093 --> 00:14:52,613 Speaker 2: Think I'm going to give it to Dave Rennie. I 275 00:14:52,693 --> 00:14:57,573 Speaker 2: think Rennie has the better body of work. He was 276 00:14:57,653 --> 00:15:00,613 Speaker 2: highly regarded by the Wallabies in terms of what he 277 00:15:00,693 --> 00:15:03,213 Speaker 2: was delivering there. There were a number of players unhappy 278 00:15:03,253 --> 00:15:06,493 Speaker 2: when he was kicked out for Sirihdi Jones a couple 279 00:15:06,573 --> 00:15:10,933 Speaker 2: of years ago. And I think you look at what 280 00:15:11,133 --> 00:15:13,533 Speaker 2: you know. It's hard to judge Japan's rugby, but he's 281 00:15:13,573 --> 00:15:16,213 Speaker 2: doing well with Koba over there. Ardie Savia is currently 282 00:15:16,253 --> 00:15:20,133 Speaker 2: playing with Kobe and he's well respected for what he 283 00:15:20,173 --> 00:15:23,573 Speaker 2: did with the Chiefs alongside Wayne Smith in twenty twelve 284 00:15:23,573 --> 00:15:26,373 Speaker 2: to twenty thirteen and transform that franchise into winners. Now 285 00:15:26,413 --> 00:15:28,613 Speaker 2: Super Rugby as we're seeing, it's not the be all 286 00:15:28,653 --> 00:15:31,573 Speaker 2: at indoor. But I think he's coached in different environments. 287 00:15:31,573 --> 00:15:35,453 Speaker 2: He coached with Glasgow, he coached, he's got internationally's top fourteen. 288 00:15:35,493 --> 00:15:38,293 Speaker 2: I think he's got that experience. Dave Rennie to come 289 00:15:39,053 --> 00:15:40,773 Speaker 2: and work with the All Blacks, I think he'd be 290 00:15:40,773 --> 00:15:43,733 Speaker 2: a very very astute head coach. I think Jamie Joseph 291 00:15:43,733 --> 00:15:46,173 Speaker 2: has some positives, but I and you look at what 292 00:15:46,213 --> 00:15:50,453 Speaker 2: he did with Japan, I would throw out probably the 293 00:15:50,533 --> 00:15:52,613 Speaker 2: last two years of what he did there. Japan was 294 00:15:52,693 --> 00:15:55,773 Speaker 2: under COVID restrictions, way behind the rest of the world 295 00:15:56,173 --> 00:15:58,533 Speaker 2: for far too long. Well depends on how you view 296 00:15:58,573 --> 00:16:00,933 Speaker 2: it in Japan, but they were behind, you know, the 297 00:16:02,653 --> 00:16:07,693 Speaker 2: COVID curtain for considerable amount of time and didn't come 298 00:16:07,693 --> 00:16:09,293 Speaker 2: out of that too long. They left their World Cup 299 00:16:09,333 --> 00:16:11,613 Speaker 2: planning to l I think nine had seventeen tests between 300 00:16:11,813 --> 00:16:13,813 Speaker 2: the twenty nineteen World Cup ending of the twenty twenty 301 00:16:13,813 --> 00:16:16,093 Speaker 2: three World Cup, so they didn't have a lot of preparation. 302 00:16:17,493 --> 00:16:19,093 Speaker 2: But I think he did well with Japan. But I 303 00:16:19,173 --> 00:16:21,933 Speaker 2: think I'd still go Dave Rennie for his body of work. 304 00:16:22,133 --> 00:16:23,413 Speaker 2: What say you, yep? 305 00:16:23,533 --> 00:16:26,413 Speaker 3: I agree for a number of reasons, and one of 306 00:16:26,493 --> 00:16:29,493 Speaker 3: them is when Dave Rennie came into the Chiefs, he 307 00:16:29,613 --> 00:16:33,253 Speaker 3: completely cleaned out that roster, took over from n Foster, 308 00:16:33,973 --> 00:16:36,293 Speaker 3: brought him the likes of Aaron Cruden from one or 309 00:16:36,293 --> 00:16:39,693 Speaker 3: two and a number of others, and brought that team 310 00:16:39,733 --> 00:16:42,653 Speaker 3: together in a year alongside Wayne Smith and Tom Coventry 311 00:16:42,653 --> 00:16:48,693 Speaker 3: and others, and built a culture, took them back to 312 00:16:48,733 --> 00:16:52,293 Speaker 3: their multi roots, had a real clear identity. He knows 313 00:16:52,333 --> 00:16:54,853 Speaker 3: how to bring teams together. He's got great relationships with 314 00:16:55,413 --> 00:16:59,653 Speaker 3: a number of coaches and players, so Dave Rennie would 315 00:16:59,653 --> 00:17:02,613 Speaker 3: be my preference. The other thing I think about Jamie 316 00:17:02,693 --> 00:17:08,173 Speaker 3: Joseph two points one Tony Brown not being available as 317 00:17:08,173 --> 00:17:12,973 Speaker 3: a massive hit. Whenever there's been great success, it's been 318 00:17:13,013 --> 00:17:15,213 Speaker 3: with Tony by his side, and I think he's a 319 00:17:15,293 --> 00:17:18,973 Speaker 3: real foil, one of the best attacking coaches in world rugby. 320 00:17:19,493 --> 00:17:22,533 Speaker 3: I also think Tony Brown post twenty twenty seven would 321 00:17:22,613 --> 00:17:25,773 Speaker 3: work with anyone, not just Jamie because he's always a 322 00:17:25,773 --> 00:17:29,373 Speaker 3: line with Jamie Joseph public now yeah, yeah, but he 323 00:17:30,093 --> 00:17:33,493 Speaker 3: I think he would work with anyone. I've also heard 324 00:17:34,093 --> 00:17:36,493 Speaker 3: a few things which I think he's on rugby aware of, 325 00:17:36,533 --> 00:17:41,573 Speaker 3: about Jamie and his coaching style and running through a 326 00:17:41,653 --> 00:17:44,253 Speaker 3: number of different assistant coaches. When you look at Kendrick 327 00:17:44,333 --> 00:17:47,333 Speaker 3: Lynn leaving and going to Argentina, Tom Donnelly going to 328 00:17:47,413 --> 00:17:52,213 Speaker 3: the Wallabies, Dave Dylan, There's been a number of others, 329 00:17:52,253 --> 00:17:55,613 Speaker 3: So maybe that speaks to an abrasive style and I 330 00:17:55,693 --> 00:18:01,413 Speaker 3: think Jamie's a very strong personality. Maybe that's what the 331 00:18:01,413 --> 00:18:02,053 Speaker 3: All Blacks need. 332 00:18:02,093 --> 00:18:04,053 Speaker 2: Now, how many assistant coaches have the All Blacks coaches 333 00:18:04,093 --> 00:18:05,653 Speaker 2: run through in the last few years exactly. 334 00:18:05,893 --> 00:18:10,853 Speaker 3: I also did perk my interests. This quote from Victor Mattfield, 335 00:18:10,853 --> 00:18:16,173 Speaker 3: who was involved with Japan. He said, one thing I 336 00:18:16,253 --> 00:18:18,813 Speaker 3: must say from the Japanese players, they weren't too happy 337 00:18:18,853 --> 00:18:21,133 Speaker 3: with Jamie Joseph at the end. Why that is it 338 00:18:21,173 --> 00:18:23,653 Speaker 3: sounded like he was very strict and very set in 339 00:18:23,693 --> 00:18:26,293 Speaker 3: his ways. But he understands in his own culture he played, 340 00:18:26,613 --> 00:18:28,813 Speaker 3: he looks like a rugby man. So it will be interesting. 341 00:18:29,253 --> 00:18:32,013 Speaker 3: And I think from what I've heard about Jamie coming 342 00:18:32,013 --> 00:18:35,253 Speaker 3: back to the High and as years yet, he's still 343 00:18:35,333 --> 00:18:38,013 Speaker 3: quite old school in his approach to training. You know, 344 00:18:39,133 --> 00:18:42,813 Speaker 3: expects players to go through the ringer, you know, really 345 00:18:42,853 --> 00:18:45,613 Speaker 3: works players hard. Maybe that's what the All Blacks need. 346 00:18:45,653 --> 00:18:47,293 Speaker 3: Maybe they do need a bit of a shake up, 347 00:18:47,333 --> 00:18:51,373 Speaker 3: a real strong man at the helm. But I think 348 00:18:51,413 --> 00:18:53,333 Speaker 3: there are potential red flags. 349 00:18:53,333 --> 00:18:56,413 Speaker 2: There is, of course, no guarantee that Davenny applies for 350 00:18:56,533 --> 00:18:59,053 Speaker 2: this gig. He's off contract with Kobe. They could finish 351 00:18:59,093 --> 00:19:02,173 Speaker 2: as in May. Yeah, they could offer him a wheelbarrow 352 00:19:02,253 --> 00:19:02,853 Speaker 2: full of cash. 353 00:19:03,053 --> 00:19:05,173 Speaker 3: Wayne Smith Stane back to Kobe as well. 354 00:19:05,213 --> 00:19:09,133 Speaker 2: All right, that's where you're going. Yeah, Okay, he may 355 00:19:09,173 --> 00:19:10,733 Speaker 2: not put his head in the ring, in which case 356 00:19:11,173 --> 00:19:13,133 Speaker 2: he may put his head and hope he does, but 357 00:19:13,173 --> 00:19:15,133 Speaker 2: he may not, in which case you're probably only left 358 00:19:15,133 --> 00:19:17,733 Speaker 2: with Jammie Joseph. How comfortab would you be with that? 359 00:19:19,133 --> 00:19:20,813 Speaker 2: And it would it mean you Jean had done the 360 00:19:20,893 --> 00:19:22,973 Speaker 2: right thing in acting Scott Robertson. If they were left 361 00:19:22,973 --> 00:19:24,053 Speaker 2: with a one horse. 362 00:19:23,853 --> 00:19:26,813 Speaker 3: Race, I think it's a floored plus a flawed process. 363 00:19:26,813 --> 00:19:28,773 Speaker 3: If you have the All Blacks coaching job and only 364 00:19:28,813 --> 00:19:31,493 Speaker 3: one person applying, I don't think that would be true. 365 00:19:31,533 --> 00:19:35,653 Speaker 3: But look, we've already had some big names Schmidt one 366 00:19:35,693 --> 00:19:39,053 Speaker 3: of them rule himself out. In the ideal world, you 367 00:19:39,173 --> 00:19:40,973 Speaker 3: have all the best candidates available. 368 00:19:41,253 --> 00:19:44,013 Speaker 2: Should they have opened it up to overseas applicants. 369 00:19:46,453 --> 00:19:49,733 Speaker 3: I wouldn't mind seeing a foreign assistant, But I'm still 370 00:19:49,773 --> 00:19:52,013 Speaker 3: at the point where I want a New Zealander coaching 371 00:19:52,093 --> 00:19:53,333 Speaker 3: the All Blacks's head coach. 372 00:19:53,653 --> 00:19:56,453 Speaker 2: But is that high performance? That's my question to you. 373 00:19:56,493 --> 00:19:57,893 Speaker 2: They talk about wanting to, you know, the All Blacks 374 00:19:57,933 --> 00:20:02,573 Speaker 2: a strong high performance brand if the best coach available 375 00:20:02,693 --> 00:20:03,893 Speaker 2: is an overseas coach. 376 00:20:04,493 --> 00:20:07,693 Speaker 3: When I think about overseas coaches that I would want involved, 377 00:20:07,693 --> 00:20:12,573 Speaker 3: I'm thinking Jacques Nebana, Ronan O'Gara potentially, but he's got 378 00:20:12,613 --> 00:20:15,333 Speaker 3: some real volatility around his sideline behavior and. 379 00:20:16,173 --> 00:20:17,853 Speaker 2: Lar Rochelle and not playing that well at the moment 380 00:20:17,893 --> 00:20:18,773 Speaker 2: towards referees. 381 00:20:20,893 --> 00:20:24,853 Speaker 3: Those guys I would really think would add a lot 382 00:20:24,853 --> 00:20:28,413 Speaker 3: of value in a coaching team. But I still think 383 00:20:29,653 --> 00:20:33,173 Speaker 3: my personal preference it might be outdated, but I do 384 00:20:33,293 --> 00:20:35,493 Speaker 3: agree that it should be in Hissigner at the stage. 385 00:20:36,053 --> 00:20:37,653 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, there's not like the huge amount of 386 00:20:37,693 --> 00:20:40,813 Speaker 2: candidates from overseas that you'd go, yep, we'll have him. 387 00:20:40,853 --> 00:20:42,533 Speaker 2: You know, Russi Erasmus isn't going to leave the spring 388 00:20:42,533 --> 00:20:43,973 Speaker 2: books to go coach to the All Blacks, is he? 389 00:20:45,493 --> 00:20:47,853 Speaker 2: And I can see I think a foreign assistant would 390 00:20:47,853 --> 00:20:50,893 Speaker 2: be helpful in the fact that New Zealand Rugby have 391 00:20:50,933 --> 00:20:52,853 Speaker 2: got a little bit stuck in their ways of wanting 392 00:20:52,853 --> 00:20:54,813 Speaker 2: to play this all black style. I think Scott Robinson 393 00:20:54,813 --> 00:20:58,773 Speaker 2: was a victim of this as well, not playing to 394 00:20:58,813 --> 00:21:00,853 Speaker 2: the way that rugby is ruled at the moment in 395 00:21:00,893 --> 00:21:03,053 Speaker 2: referee playing the way that they want the game to 396 00:21:03,133 --> 00:21:05,653 Speaker 2: be refereed. And you think about the high ball and 397 00:21:05,773 --> 00:21:08,013 Speaker 2: the stuff that would rugby is implemented, which is absolutely mad 398 00:21:08,053 --> 00:21:12,493 Speaker 2: the game you know, the the escort rule and various 399 00:21:12,493 --> 00:21:14,853 Speaker 2: other things that they've implemented that has made the game absolutely, 400 00:21:14,893 --> 00:21:17,053 Speaker 2: you know, an abomination at times to watch. But this 401 00:21:17,093 --> 00:21:18,333 Speaker 2: is the way it's been played, and you've got to 402 00:21:18,373 --> 00:21:21,173 Speaker 2: play to the way that it's been you know, refereed 403 00:21:21,253 --> 00:21:23,013 Speaker 2: at the top level, not the way that you want 404 00:21:23,013 --> 00:21:24,093 Speaker 2: to play. And there's got to be a bit of 405 00:21:24,093 --> 00:21:26,693 Speaker 2: pragmatism I think around that. I think a foreign coach 406 00:21:26,733 --> 00:21:27,213 Speaker 2: could help that. 407 00:21:27,853 --> 00:21:29,853 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think in any coaching team it's good to 408 00:21:29,933 --> 00:21:36,133 Speaker 3: have challenging ideas. If you think about Hanson, Smith and Henry, 409 00:21:36,413 --> 00:21:39,253 Speaker 3: they are all head coaches in their own right with 410 00:21:39,373 --> 00:21:44,933 Speaker 3: vast experience, and their whole mantra was disagree and commit 411 00:21:45,573 --> 00:21:48,933 Speaker 3: and I think, well, a the fact new zom Rugby 412 00:21:49,013 --> 00:21:51,373 Speaker 3: has come out and said we want someone with international 413 00:21:51,413 --> 00:21:56,133 Speaker 3: experience is saying we should have had that in the 414 00:21:56,133 --> 00:21:59,853 Speaker 3: first place. That's what was clearly lacking. And I think 415 00:22:00,933 --> 00:22:04,133 Speaker 3: it has been born out that there wasn't enough challenging 416 00:22:04,413 --> 00:22:07,253 Speaker 3: ideas in that coaching team because it was a very 417 00:22:07,293 --> 00:22:12,693 Speaker 3: tight knit clique between Scott Hansen, Scott Robertson and Jason Ryan, 418 00:22:12,933 --> 00:22:16,733 Speaker 3: and they'd all coached together previously in the same Crusaders environment. 419 00:22:17,133 --> 00:22:20,733 Speaker 3: So I think in any coaching team you need to 420 00:22:20,773 --> 00:22:25,813 Speaker 3: have people challenging you and foreign ideas. Different coaching environments 421 00:22:26,813 --> 00:22:30,533 Speaker 3: is very beneficial. And look, when you look at Jamie 422 00:22:30,613 --> 00:22:33,293 Speaker 3: Joseph and Dave Rennie, they both have that they've both 423 00:22:33,333 --> 00:22:35,493 Speaker 3: been around, they've both had a lot of experience, so 424 00:22:36,093 --> 00:22:38,773 Speaker 3: they will bring that. But what about this? Could they 425 00:22:38,773 --> 00:22:39,293 Speaker 3: work together? 426 00:22:40,773 --> 00:22:45,733 Speaker 2: Possibly? There was mentioned to me when the first happened 427 00:22:45,733 --> 00:22:48,093 Speaker 2: that Scott Robinson left that maybe they could form a 428 00:22:48,213 --> 00:22:51,973 Speaker 2: coaching team together. Who would be the head coach? Maybe 429 00:22:51,973 --> 00:22:54,453 Speaker 2: Rennie is the head coach, Jamie Joseph looks after the Fords, 430 00:22:54,973 --> 00:22:57,173 Speaker 2: you bring in a couple of other people potentially that 431 00:22:57,293 --> 00:22:59,493 Speaker 2: they may present that to New Zealand Rugby. Is that 432 00:22:59,533 --> 00:23:02,253 Speaker 2: the best way forward? That would essentially would be one 433 00:23:02,253 --> 00:23:03,893 Speaker 2: horse race to be one and a half horse race. 434 00:23:03,973 --> 00:23:06,813 Speaker 2: But maybe that's the combo that New Zealand Rugby would 435 00:23:06,853 --> 00:23:08,693 Speaker 2: go for the best of both of us. Could they 436 00:23:08,773 --> 00:23:12,373 Speaker 2: work together? You know, head coaches are often very headstrong. 437 00:23:13,453 --> 00:23:16,053 Speaker 2: Some coaches don't like going back to being assistants. Some 438 00:23:16,453 --> 00:23:18,493 Speaker 2: coaches are better being assistants. 439 00:23:18,293 --> 00:23:21,773 Speaker 3: And we saw that probably with Liam McDonald not getting 440 00:23:21,893 --> 00:23:24,973 Speaker 3: the influence that he wanted after being head coach at 441 00:23:25,013 --> 00:23:25,413 Speaker 3: the Blues. 442 00:23:25,453 --> 00:23:25,613 Speaker 2: Yep. 443 00:23:26,133 --> 00:23:28,173 Speaker 3: And you're rights. When you become a head coach, you 444 00:23:28,213 --> 00:23:32,093 Speaker 3: get used to that autonomy and that influence, that power 445 00:23:32,133 --> 00:23:34,813 Speaker 3: of making those decisions. 446 00:23:35,013 --> 00:23:37,253 Speaker 2: Someone who did that quite well I think was Tanaumo actually, 447 00:23:37,533 --> 00:23:39,133 Speaker 2: albeit he's now back as a head coach with more 448 00:23:39,173 --> 00:23:41,133 Speaker 2: Ona Pacificer, but he went from being the Blues head 449 00:23:41,173 --> 00:23:44,893 Speaker 2: coach before Liam McDonald came on to switching with Leam 450 00:23:45,013 --> 00:23:47,133 Speaker 2: became the defense coach at a very good job there 451 00:23:47,173 --> 00:23:49,053 Speaker 2: from what I understand, and was kind of built for that. 452 00:23:49,533 --> 00:23:51,493 Speaker 2: And now he's back at one of Pacific and doing 453 00:23:51,493 --> 00:23:53,493 Speaker 2: some good work there. But yeah, some coaches just work 454 00:23:53,573 --> 00:23:56,973 Speaker 2: better as being assistants and some coaches work better as 455 00:23:57,013 --> 00:23:59,133 Speaker 2: being head coaches, and maybe they can come together and 456 00:23:59,213 --> 00:24:01,893 Speaker 2: form a super team. 457 00:24:02,693 --> 00:24:05,133 Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't see Jamie Joseph sliding into an assistant 458 00:24:05,133 --> 00:24:05,693 Speaker 3: coaching role. 459 00:24:06,053 --> 00:24:09,013 Speaker 2: Probably not Van kode as a touch a couple of times. 460 00:24:09,053 --> 00:24:12,333 Speaker 2: Heading to the Reds in twenty seven to twenty eight 461 00:24:12,373 --> 00:24:15,613 Speaker 2: to two year deal leaving the Blues behind. This come 462 00:24:15,613 --> 00:24:16,693 Speaker 2: as a bit of a surprise to you. 463 00:24:18,173 --> 00:24:20,413 Speaker 3: Not the fact that he's leaving, but the destination. 464 00:24:20,693 --> 00:24:22,493 Speaker 2: Yeah, Is this a backward step for Vern or a 465 00:24:22,533 --> 00:24:26,253 Speaker 2: sideway step or a how would you categorize it. 466 00:24:28,013 --> 00:24:30,653 Speaker 3: I think it's a good move because I think it's 467 00:24:30,653 --> 00:24:35,013 Speaker 3: a very desirable position being based in Brisbane, great city, 468 00:24:36,173 --> 00:24:40,613 Speaker 3: and I think the Reds have a ceiling that hasn't 469 00:24:40,653 --> 00:24:42,893 Speaker 3: been met yet. If you think about where Brad Thorne 470 00:24:42,893 --> 00:24:46,213 Speaker 3: took them, he really struggled less Kiss Kimen and has 471 00:24:46,213 --> 00:24:48,133 Speaker 3: improved them and I think they've got improvement yet. They've 472 00:24:48,133 --> 00:24:50,333 Speaker 3: still got a pretty good roster if you can get 473 00:24:50,333 --> 00:24:52,973 Speaker 3: that forward pat going forward. They've got some really talented 474 00:24:53,013 --> 00:24:56,213 Speaker 3: backs and Vern has shown an ability to come in 475 00:24:56,413 --> 00:25:00,933 Speaker 3: and have immediate results, delivered the Blues their first title 476 00:25:01,013 --> 00:25:02,973 Speaker 3: in twenty one years and has made in the season 477 00:25:03,013 --> 00:25:05,693 Speaker 3: at the Helm. Whether his star was going to suit 478 00:25:05,693 --> 00:25:08,213 Speaker 3: the Reds is probably a big questions, probably a long 479 00:25:08,333 --> 00:25:14,653 Speaker 3: away from the way that les Kiss has them playing. Yeah, 480 00:25:14,693 --> 00:25:18,453 Speaker 3: I think Vern this will be his third year at 481 00:25:18,493 --> 00:25:22,733 Speaker 3: the Blues, and I think he signposted to them. This 482 00:25:22,773 --> 00:25:24,573 Speaker 3: has been about four months in the making from what 483 00:25:24,613 --> 00:25:28,813 Speaker 3: I understand, and that he Vern had verbally agreed to 484 00:25:28,853 --> 00:25:32,733 Speaker 3: the Red's job prior to Razor being sacked, So that's 485 00:25:33,053 --> 00:25:36,253 Speaker 3: one reason why he won't contest the All Blacks coaching job. 486 00:25:37,573 --> 00:25:43,213 Speaker 3: I also heard it's unconfirmed that's Razor applied for the 487 00:25:43,253 --> 00:25:46,893 Speaker 3: Reds gig, but was pretty late in the piece, right, 488 00:25:47,133 --> 00:25:51,293 Speaker 3: So whether that's true or not on one hundred percent sure, 489 00:25:51,333 --> 00:25:54,733 Speaker 3: But one trusted source mentioned that to me, So. 490 00:25:56,333 --> 00:25:57,573 Speaker 2: Is he a go for the Blues job? 491 00:25:58,493 --> 00:26:02,573 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, that would be almost Dan carter esk, wouldn't it. 492 00:26:03,013 --> 00:26:05,653 Speaker 3: Cartera never took the field. No, Grandma said no. 493 00:26:06,573 --> 00:26:08,813 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not sure how the good people of the 494 00:26:08,853 --> 00:26:12,333 Speaker 2: mainland seeing Razor and a Blues polar What. 495 00:26:12,253 --> 00:26:14,493 Speaker 3: About you with the Verns of the Reds. Obviously he'll 496 00:26:14,493 --> 00:26:16,733 Speaker 3: see out the season before moving over there, and Liz 497 00:26:16,853 --> 00:26:19,653 Speaker 3: is going to the Wallabies, so there's you know, Dick 498 00:26:19,733 --> 00:26:24,373 Speaker 3: Cheers moving around. What do you see about Vern's move 499 00:26:24,413 --> 00:26:24,813 Speaker 3: to the Reds? 500 00:26:24,893 --> 00:26:26,773 Speaker 2: Is it good? I think it's a smart move for 501 00:26:27,213 --> 00:26:28,453 Speaker 2: I mean, it's a little bit of a surprise to 502 00:26:28,493 --> 00:26:31,013 Speaker 2: me because I kind of felt like he was probably 503 00:26:31,013 --> 00:26:33,613 Speaker 2: close to just you know, drawing a line under his 504 00:26:33,613 --> 00:26:36,013 Speaker 2: professional career, maybe having crack at the All Blacks potentially, 505 00:26:36,053 --> 00:26:38,093 Speaker 2: but it felt like he, you know, he's got the 506 00:26:38,133 --> 00:26:41,173 Speaker 2: farm down south and maybe must sit down south in 507 00:26:41,213 --> 00:26:42,893 Speaker 2: the middle of the North find and maybe that was 508 00:26:42,933 --> 00:26:44,973 Speaker 2: time to draw a line under there. But as you see, 509 00:26:45,293 --> 00:26:48,573 Speaker 2: Queensland's a very desirable location. Maybe one last challenge before 510 00:26:48,853 --> 00:26:51,893 Speaker 2: he retires. He's ticked off the Blues job. I mean, 511 00:26:51,893 --> 00:26:54,333 Speaker 2: he's really got nothing left to prove in terms of 512 00:26:54,333 --> 00:26:57,813 Speaker 2: club coaching, has he And you know, but I just 513 00:26:57,853 --> 00:27:03,173 Speaker 2: don't know that. This feels like a challenge that doesn't 514 00:27:03,213 --> 00:27:05,533 Speaker 2: need to take on necessarily. But I don't mind him 515 00:27:05,573 --> 00:27:06,773 Speaker 2: taking it on nonetheless. 516 00:27:06,853 --> 00:27:08,893 Speaker 3: Yeah, I spoke to Vern this morning. He said he's 517 00:27:08,893 --> 00:27:14,733 Speaker 3: motivated by the fact that Australian Super Ragged teams have struggled, right, 518 00:27:14,773 --> 00:27:19,653 Speaker 3: They've been an anchor on the competition. Really, it's been 519 00:27:19,693 --> 00:27:22,853 Speaker 3: twelve years since an Australian team won Super Rugby I 520 00:27:22,893 --> 00:27:26,053 Speaker 3: think twenty fourteen. The Warata has won twenty eleven, the 521 00:27:26,093 --> 00:27:29,773 Speaker 3: Reds last one a title. So there's he's motivated by 522 00:27:29,813 --> 00:27:32,973 Speaker 3: that challenge and it'd be great for the competition. What 523 00:27:33,013 --> 00:27:34,333 Speaker 3: if they win this year, if he could go there 524 00:27:34,333 --> 00:27:34,693 Speaker 3: and making it. 525 00:27:34,733 --> 00:27:37,733 Speaker 2: What if they win this year and there is no challenge, 526 00:27:37,853 --> 00:27:40,093 Speaker 2: if Liz Kiss leads into the Promised Land, he's just 527 00:27:40,133 --> 00:27:43,293 Speaker 2: going to build on that. You can the Brumby's win 528 00:27:43,373 --> 00:27:44,813 Speaker 2: or the Force win this year and what if the 529 00:27:44,853 --> 00:27:47,933 Speaker 2: Force went your life saving him when this year and 530 00:27:48,173 --> 00:27:49,293 Speaker 2: an Australian team. 531 00:27:49,093 --> 00:27:50,813 Speaker 3: Has you do love a rogue pack? 532 00:27:51,213 --> 00:27:53,693 Speaker 2: Well, well we'll get into our Super Rugby preview in 533 00:27:53,733 --> 00:27:57,933 Speaker 2: a couple of weeks time. No, yeah, don't begrudge the move. 534 00:27:57,973 --> 00:28:02,533 Speaker 2: I think it is slightly backwards, maybe from Vancotta, but 535 00:28:03,413 --> 00:28:05,373 Speaker 2: look they're getting a good coach, that's for sure. 536 00:28:05,733 --> 00:28:08,133 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it creates a lot of intrigue back here. 537 00:28:08,173 --> 00:28:12,173 Speaker 3: But because the Blues is open now and I think 538 00:28:12,933 --> 00:28:17,173 Speaker 3: internally Paul Tito's quite highly regarded, You've got potential of 539 00:28:17,293 --> 00:28:22,413 Speaker 3: Dave Rennie. Under previous managements, the Blues went after Rennie 540 00:28:22,493 --> 00:28:27,253 Speaker 3: and missed outs. When I wrote that story that a 541 00:28:27,333 --> 00:28:30,173 Speaker 3: Formature executive told me I was pissing on on my 542 00:28:30,253 --> 00:28:32,933 Speaker 3: corn flakes because I wrote the story on the day 543 00:28:32,973 --> 00:28:37,333 Speaker 3: of a Blues game. It's a little fun and games well, 544 00:28:37,653 --> 00:28:40,293 Speaker 3: and then yeah, Razor or whoever else. I think the 545 00:28:40,333 --> 00:28:43,453 Speaker 3: Blues is a very desirable coaching position as well, isn't it. 546 00:28:43,453 --> 00:28:49,013 Speaker 2: It is absolutely and there is a pathway the sort 547 00:28:49,053 --> 00:28:52,813 Speaker 2: of to higher honors in terms of an All Blacks coaching job. 548 00:28:52,853 --> 00:28:55,853 Speaker 2: Although you're unlikely to go straight from super Raby now 549 00:28:55,973 --> 00:28:58,613 Speaker 2: to coaching the All Blacks. You're kind of having to 550 00:28:58,773 --> 00:29:01,813 Speaker 2: come back from overseas experience to coach at superbe level 551 00:29:02,053 --> 00:29:04,013 Speaker 2: being going to the All Blacks. But it's a it's 552 00:29:04,053 --> 00:29:06,813 Speaker 2: a it's a job in a big market and you know, 553 00:29:06,893 --> 00:29:10,613 Speaker 2: fashionable team that will be appealing to too many I'm sure. 554 00:29:11,053 --> 00:29:14,013 Speaker 3: Yeah, some big personalities potentially to manage. I think that 555 00:29:14,053 --> 00:29:16,493 Speaker 3: we will see quite a bit of turnover with that 556 00:29:16,533 --> 00:29:18,413 Speaker 3: Blues team in the next couple of years. If you 557 00:29:18,413 --> 00:29:23,373 Speaker 3: think about potentially guys like Dalton, Papa, Lee, Boden, Barrett, Riquewanny, 558 00:29:23,573 --> 00:29:25,733 Speaker 3: some of those senior Blues players probably moving on in 559 00:29:25,773 --> 00:29:29,133 Speaker 3: the next couple of years, so maybe the next gen 560 00:29:29,453 --> 00:29:31,293 Speaker 3: you know, someone to bring through the next generation. 561 00:29:32,053 --> 00:29:36,173 Speaker 2: Absolutely, just make sure we don't personally anyone's call flakes 562 00:29:36,173 --> 00:29:36,733 Speaker 2: this time around. 563 00:29:37,053 --> 00:29:38,773 Speaker 3: It doesn't sound very appetizing. 564 00:29:39,253 --> 00:29:41,733 Speaker 2: Yeah, hopefully no one's listening to that over the breakfast. 565 00:29:42,093 --> 00:29:44,493 Speaker 2: We will leave it there for Rugby Direct come back 566 00:29:44,493 --> 00:29:46,813 Speaker 2: in a couple of weeks. I've said this before, but 567 00:29:46,933 --> 00:29:48,933 Speaker 2: pending no other big news for a bit of a 568 00:29:48,933 --> 00:29:51,533 Speaker 2: superb preview on the eve of the season that's. 569 00:29:51,373 --> 00:29:54,013 Speaker 3: All right, and just get on the cane chains. It's 570 00:29:54,053 --> 00:29:57,253 Speaker 3: coming home this year yet, is it. It's all it's 571 00:29:57,253 --> 00:29:58,013 Speaker 3: all coming together. 572 00:29:58,853 --> 00:30:00,533 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know about that. We will see in 573 00:30:00,533 --> 00:30:02,773 Speaker 2: a couple of weeks and see where exactly I've got 574 00:30:02,773 --> 00:30:03,773 Speaker 2: the canes in my ladder. 575 00:30:03,813 --> 00:30:05,813 Speaker 3: I'm surprised you didn't tip Rob Penny for the All 576 00:30:05,813 --> 00:30:07,853 Speaker 3: Blacks coaching job. Actually he's just. 577 00:30:07,853 --> 00:30:11,213 Speaker 2: An allergy unto the criteria. But you know, they couldn't 578 00:30:11,213 --> 00:30:12,893 Speaker 2: find a bit of man. I wouldn't have thought to 579 00:30:12,893 --> 00:30:14,253 Speaker 2: take on that man to right. We'll see in a 580 00:30:14,253 --> 00:30:16,373 Speaker 2: couple of weeks. Thanks to Mark Kelly, take next time 581 00:30:16,373 --> 00:30:16,973 Speaker 2: on Right good Night. 582 00:30:19,813 --> 00:30:22,453 Speaker 1: For more from News Talk st B, listen live on 583 00:30:22,533 --> 00:30:25,493 Speaker 1: air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever 584 00:30:25,533 --> 00:30:28,093 Speaker 1: you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.