Speaker 1: Kiyota.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. This week,
Speaker 2: we'll see mass walkouts across the country as one hundred
Speaker 2: thousand teachers and medical staff go on strike this Thursday,
Speaker 2: October twenty third, eleven thousand, five hundred allied health workers
Speaker 2: will walk off the job, as well as thirty five
Speaker 2: hundred mental health and public health nurses and mental health assistants,
Speaker 2: more than thirty six thousand nurses, midwives, healthcare assistants, and
Speaker 2: four hundred nurses and healthcare assistants working for corrections.
Speaker 1: On top of all of this, in a historic first.
Speaker 2: Primary school teachers, primary Principles, school support staff and Ministry
Speaker 2: of Education specialist staff as secondary and area school teachers
Speaker 2: will all strike together.
Speaker 1: Today on the front page.
Speaker 2: PPTA President Chris Abercrombie is with us to take us
Speaker 2: through what needs to change in our education sector.
Speaker 1: So, Chris, this is a huge display.
Speaker 2: You've got primary and secondary schools, teachers and assistants all
Speaker 2: striking across the country.
Speaker 1: What has led to this.
Speaker 3: Well, it's really disappointing that it's happening at all, and
Speaker 3: it's not just teachers, as there's nurses, there's public servants,
Speaker 3: there's care workers, there's a whole range of workers really
Speaker 3: just showing their unhappiness with what's happening at the moment.
Speaker 3: What's lead for us in particular is around really our
Speaker 3: issues aren't being addressed, and we know there is significant
Speaker 3: unmet need in our secondaries, particularly our secondary schools at
Speaker 3: the moment, be it mental health needs, be a specific
Speaker 3: learning needs, being lots of other things.
Speaker 4: And we really need that need met.
Speaker 3: We've got this government introducing once in a generation curriculum
Speaker 3: and assessment change, and we need a workforce to to
Speaker 3: be able to deliver that.
Speaker 2: Is this just the worst time to introduce a curriculum change.
Speaker 4: Well, it seems to be everything all at once, you know.
Speaker 3: So we've got, you know, from the primary sector, we've
Speaker 3: got structured literacy, mass mastery. We've also got an attendance focus.
Speaker 3: Now in secondary, we're doing a new curriculum area. Junior
Speaker 3: primary schools already looking at new curriculum areas. We've got
Speaker 3: a whole new subjects coming in a secondary and then
Speaker 3: we've also got a whole new assessment on top of that,
Speaker 3: we're creating a national vocational pathways that we've never had,
Speaker 3: and a whole new system to deliver that in two years.
Speaker 3: It's a very big ask of the government to do
Speaker 3: this at the time we're having chronic teacher.
Speaker 2: Shortages and in order to get those teachers, and you've
Speaker 2: got to pay them fairly.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so terms and paying conditions. Terms and conditions are
Speaker 3: a really key part of this. And you know, it
Speaker 3: pays important and I never want to say it's not,
Speaker 3: but actually, what I'm hearing more and more from our
Speaker 3: teachers is actually the conditions. It's the issues around having
Speaker 3: enough pastoral care time, having enough professional development, having enough
Speaker 3: curriculum support. That's the things that they're actually they're talking
Speaker 3: to me about when I visit schools, and I visit
Speaker 3: schools all the time. I was in Northland this week
Speaker 3: visiting secondary schools there, and that's what they're telling me.
Speaker 2: What about people who say, oh, you get all these
Speaker 2: school holidays?
Speaker 4: Though, oh, look, it would be amazing if we did.
Speaker 4: And this is one of the funny things about it.
Speaker 3: And often the people that tell us how great our
Speaker 3: job is and how easy it is will also be
Speaker 3: the same ones that will say, oh, I can never
Speaker 3: do that though. So look, teaching is an amazing profession
Speaker 3: and there's this weird mix of flexible and inflexible time,
Speaker 3: and term breaks are often that flexible time where teachers.
Speaker 3: You know, I attended several conferences. These holidays were subject associations.
Speaker 3: Our conference was these holidays, and I know every school
Speaker 3: holidays is number of conferences.
Speaker 2: Teachers will refuse to teach certain class levels from year
Speaker 2: seven to thirteen on certain days.
Speaker 1: How disruptive is this for the kids?
Speaker 4: Well, unfortunately, it does create disruption.
Speaker 3: It is less disruptive than a full strike, and that's
Speaker 3: the reason that teachers have chosen to do this because
Speaker 3: the vast majority of students are still at school and
Speaker 3: it creates less time out of class. So most students
Speaker 3: well in the next from this weekend, next week will
Speaker 3: most likely be around two hours of our teaching time
Speaker 3: miss for each subject. So it's an attempt to lessen
Speaker 3: that disruption because we understand it's an important time.
Speaker 4: Teachers have been working hard with their students all year
Speaker 4: to get them up to that point.
Speaker 3: So it is disruptive and it's disappointing that it is,
Speaker 3: but unfortunately that's what we have to do.
Speaker 5: We want to make make sure that those children who
Speaker 5: are going into exams aren't going to be missing out
Speaker 5: on the final few days that they have with their
Speaker 5: teachers before they sit their exams, will sit their mock
Speaker 5: exams which they get their derived grades from that they're
Speaker 5: in class with those teachers. And unfortunately we haven't been
Speaker 5: able to get to that position. But it's not through
Speaker 5: lack of trying and good faith on our side.
Speaker 2: So this is all happening in the lead up to
Speaker 2: and during INCA exams. I saw Erica Stanford actually tell
Speaker 2: Morning Report the kids need their teacher in front of
Speaker 2: them for that very last minute revision. So how do
Speaker 2: you respond to public and parents' concerns about this disruption
Speaker 2: to students learning during this formative time.
Speaker 3: Well, again, I think teacher that work really hard with
Speaker 3: the students the whole year to prepare them for this.
Speaker 3: Teachers will be available outside of the industrial time to
Speaker 3: support students, and the sort of the claim that was
Speaker 3: going to disrupt exams, it's just not true. Teachers aren't
Speaker 3: allowed anywhere near the exams. Quite rightly, you can be
Speaker 3: supervising your own students and the NCAA examine.
Speaker 4: We're not even allowed in the room while the exams
Speaker 4: are taking place. So that's a bit of a red hearing.
Speaker 3: Teachers say, I've been working really hard to support their
Speaker 3: students and they will be available outside of the industrial
Speaker 3: time to again support them and to help them achieve
Speaker 3: at the best of the level they can.
Speaker 2: How many more kids these days do require that extra support?
Speaker 1: Can you give me an example whectually?
Speaker 3: There's a really good example in a recent there's a
Speaker 3: survey called tell Us and it's an international survey new
Speaker 3: Zealand teachers. So a quarter of New Zealand teachers report
Speaker 3: that at least ten percent of students at their school
Speaker 3: need some sort of support, and so some of the
Speaker 3: highest in the world in that. So our teachers are saying, hey,
Speaker 3: we need support, Our students need more support. And that's
Speaker 3: for lots of reasons. We're understanding things are much better.
Speaker 3: We understand the brain much better, how it works. We're
Speaker 3: recognizing things when I was at school a long time ago,
Speaker 3: now we didn't really recognize. I think about my mother,
Speaker 3: my mother's dyslexic, but when she went to school, she
Speaker 3: was just dumb because that's what they thought back then.
Speaker 3: And so making those sort of understanding that a bit better,
Speaker 3: meaning that we're needing more and more. But also our
Speaker 3: students are in a very complex world, way more complex
Speaker 3: than when I was at school, or most people were
Speaker 3: at school in living in a world that really if
Speaker 3: you're an older person you just can't understand. And so
Speaker 3: if you're not dealing with teenagers every single day, you
Speaker 3: just can't really understand the world.
Speaker 4: They're living in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you think that there's an increase in learning
Speaker 2: difficulties or you know, just is there just more awareness
Speaker 2: about different needs that we haven't really prioritized in the past.
Speaker 3: I think it's definitely more awareness of different needs that
Speaker 3: again that we hadn't prioritized in the past, or we're
Speaker 3: never recognized in the past. And also there's we know
Speaker 3: there's an increase in sort of anxiety issues, mental health issues,
Speaker 3: and we need to be able to support those students
Speaker 3: in the school so we can get.
Speaker 4: On with the teaching and learning.
Speaker 3: That's the really key part to this is that we
Speaker 3: need the support so that can be dealt with so
Speaker 3: the teachers can get on with the teaching and learning.
Speaker 2: I guess so when someone starts a sentence with well,
Speaker 2: back in my day, you.
Speaker 1: Must roll your eyes. You must get that all the time.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. And look, I grew up in a very small
Speaker 3: rural town. You know, I had the ninety people in
Speaker 3: my hometown. I went to a two teacher, three teacher primary.
Speaker 3: I went to a very small rural secondary, and so
Speaker 3: my education was very sort of I wes sort of standard.
Speaker 3: And it's just so different to that nowadays. And I
Speaker 3: know people say, oh, it's all the same, but it's
Speaker 3: really not. It's such a complex changing role now. One
Speaker 3: example I can give actually is around bullying. Actually, you know,
Speaker 3: back when I was at school, you know, and bullying happened,
Speaker 3: they didn't bring up the landline and go hello missus
Speaker 3: Abra Crombie clim please billy your son.
Speaker 4: Yeah, then you write you a letter.
Speaker 3: And now with the world it is and how connected
Speaker 3: we are, it's potentially twenty four to seven for these
Speaker 3: young people, and it's and I know it's easy for
Speaker 3: older people to say, I'll just turn off your phone
Speaker 3: or uninstall Instagram or whatever, But for these young people,
Speaker 3: that's the connection to the world, connection with their friends,
Speaker 3: and so it's really hard for us to sort of
Speaker 3: understand that world.
Speaker 4: Again, if you're not dealing with teenagers every day. It's
Speaker 4: really hard for you to understand.
Speaker 2: Well, that really leads me into my next question because
Speaker 2: it was going to be has technology improved teaching or
Speaker 2: added new pressures? But I suppose you're probably dodging AI left,
Speaker 2: right and center as well.
Speaker 3: It's a bit of both. So I think the key
Speaker 3: thing is that teachers really see technology as a tool.
Speaker 3: Is you know, like like you see anything and your
Speaker 3: talk and a certain situation, that tool is amazing and
Speaker 3: it's going to really help that teaching and that learning
Speaker 3: to take place, and other times.
Speaker 4: Is actually going to hinder it's actually going to take
Speaker 4: away from it.
Speaker 3: And so that's one of the things around the professional
Speaker 3: development teachers want is that actually we need to upscale
Speaker 3: ourselves before we can support the students because we often,
Speaker 3: and I really dislike this phrase, the students are digital
Speaker 3: natives and digital and I don't really like that because
Speaker 3: there's just as complex for them as it is for anyone.
Speaker 4: Ouse it's just then more willing to give it a go.
Speaker 3: They're more willing to have a crack at it and
Speaker 3: not worry about those things that sort of you know,
Speaker 3: older people or people who are a bit more concerned
Speaker 3: about it will be. And I think some things have
Speaker 3: been really good. And I'll give props to the government
Speaker 3: for this. About the cell phone band, I know teachers
Speaker 3: were really worried about how that was actually going to work,
Speaker 3: but from all accounts i've heard, it's been really positive
Speaker 3: and leading some really positive outcomes. So we can make
Speaker 3: these changes, it's just making sure we've got the.
Speaker 4: Support to do it.
Speaker 1: How's morale amongst teachers at the moment.
Speaker 3: That's a tough question to so I visit schools quite
Speaker 3: often and there describe this They because they love teaching,
Speaker 3: like they love the role, they love being in the classroom.
Speaker 3: Often I get asked, I've been out of the classroom
Speaker 3: a couple of years to take on this president role,
Speaker 3: and they're like, do you miss teaching? Absolutely, I've missed
Speaker 3: being in the classroom. I missed the teaching, but a
Speaker 3: lot of the stuff outside of it. That's that's where
Speaker 3: the issues come in, sort of the significant government change.
Speaker 3: And I mentioned the Talus report. New Zealand teachers are
Speaker 3: some of the most stressed in the world, were the
Speaker 3: third most stress according to the survey, and most of
Speaker 3: that is driven by the constant change put forward by
Speaker 3: the government, and so that's putting a lot of pressure
Speaker 3: on schools on principles, I'm learning support.
Speaker 4: On all aspects of the sector. It's putting a lot
Speaker 4: of pressure on it.
Speaker 2: If we put pay and benefits to the side, just
Speaker 2: for a second, what realistically, can you give me any numbers?
Speaker 2: We need this many teacher support aids, we need this
Speaker 2: many new classrooms, we need this many new people.
Speaker 3: So we know, for instance, from the government the Ministry stats,
Speaker 3: we're five hundred and fifty secondary teachers short this year
Speaker 3: and we're five hundred short for next year, so that
Speaker 3: those are the numbers we're talking about. But when we
Speaker 3: survey principles is actually a bit higher. Its closer to
Speaker 3: thee thousand mark, because what schools are doing is they're
Speaker 3: using people to sort of cover a position. So it
Speaker 3: say I'm a history teacher, i might be teaching physics.
Speaker 3: Now I'll give it a good crack, but those students
Speaker 3: aren't going to get the best deal out of me
Speaker 3: as a physics teacher. And so we think the numbers
Speaker 3: more around about one thousand short. But also we know
Speaker 3: we've got an aging workforce, and so in the next
Speaker 3: five to ten years, that number is going to significantly increase.
Speaker 3: And we also know we need significant investment into professional
Speaker 3: development to support.
Speaker 4: These changes coming through.
Speaker 3: So in the last budget, the government took sixty million
Speaker 3: dollars out of secondary and put that into some primary initiatives.
Speaker 3: So we're already down that significant resource and secondary and
Speaker 3: so we really need to at least, you know, focus
Speaker 3: on getting that back up.
Speaker 4: And then the future budgets coming going forward.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I had a similar conversation with nurses and they say, look,
Speaker 2: it's better doing local work and casual work. Is it
Speaker 2: the same for teachers? Is relief work actually pay better?
Speaker 4: So on a per a day rate, yes it does.
Speaker 3: You don't get the holiday paid the same, it gets
Speaker 3: included in your pacement, but in your day pay.
Speaker 4: But you can be five days a week, every day
Speaker 4: every week.
Speaker 3: Doing relief and there's a significant short Yeah, the works there,
Speaker 3: there's significant shortage, and there's lots of reasons for that.
Speaker 3: One of the big ones is actually schools are bringing
Speaker 3: people back into the workforce and the full time workforce,
Speaker 3: so they're using their relievers as full time, perimanent teachers.
Speaker 3: When using a lot of retired teachers, I visited one
Speaker 3: of my old schools last year and was still.
Speaker 4: One of my teachers there.
Speaker 3: She said, I retired, Chris, but I have to come
Speaker 3: back in because the.
Speaker 4: School needed me. And so that's a really common thing.
Speaker 3: It's sort of becoming a bit of a joke called
Speaker 3: the old teacher retirement.
Speaker 4: I know a few teachers every tired four.
Speaker 3: Times now, but they keep coming back in because the
Speaker 3: school needs them.
Speaker 6: Kis are getting a bit sick of the union's going
Speaker 6: on straight action rather than actually because it's putting our
Speaker 6: kids who have missed out on a lot of school
Speaker 6: off school. We've got a lot of students about to
Speaker 6: go into exam mode. We are also a lot of patients, frankly,
Speaker 6: that are also wanting to get through the weight lesson
Speaker 6: into surgeries as well, so they can get through the
Speaker 6: pain and suffering. I've got Our only ask is that
Speaker 6: we just want the youths to come around the table
Speaker 6: and negotiate. We appreciate we don't have a bottomless pit
Speaker 6: of money. We know we've got very straight and economic times.
Speaker 6: We've got to deal with that reality. But the answer
Speaker 6: is not to go into strike action and cause pain
Speaker 6: and suffering for parents and kids and patients. The answer
Speaker 6: is actually get around the table and stick with it
Speaker 6: and to go through bargaining process.
Speaker 2: How confident are you that this strike will do anything.
Speaker 4: I'm always optimistic about this.
Speaker 3: We know from previous experience, we know from lots of
Speaker 3: other conversations we've had that that these do shift the
Speaker 3: needle because it shows the government how willing we are,
Speaker 3: how important this is, that will fore go pay, that
Speaker 3: will take these chances here to.
Speaker 4: Really push for an improvement in terms of conditions.
Speaker 3: And there's an old saying, you know, teachers working conditions,
Speaker 3: of students learning conditions. So if we've got a well
Speaker 3: supported teacher workforce, then we're going to have a well
Speaker 3: supported student body our young people. And there's heaps of
Speaker 3: evidence of if you have a workforce that is dedicated
Speaker 3: and focused, you can get change. The increase in attendance,
Speaker 3: for instance, the changes in the structured literacy and numeracy
Speaker 3: that was well supported and we've seen change in that.
Speaker 3: And so if you support the teachers, they'll do the
Speaker 3: main and you've supports the schools, they'll get the job done.
Speaker 3: But when we don't have the teacher expertise, we don't
Speaker 3: have the subject specialist. When we're not getting the learning support,
Speaker 3: when our guidance counselors are under the pump supporting students
Speaker 3: with mental health issues because there's no care in the
Speaker 3: community for them, then it makes it hard to keep
Speaker 3: those successes going.
Speaker 1: Is the government willing though.
Speaker 3: Oh, look, I think they are. They keep saying they
Speaker 3: want a world class education system. Well, if you want
Speaker 3: a world class education system, you have to pay for it.
Speaker 3: You can't have that on the g And it's all
Speaker 3: about political decisions. They're as simple as that. The government
Speaker 3: just needs to make the decision to fund education, to
Speaker 3: fund teachers, to fund schools. And they'll say, oh, we're
Speaker 3: doing this, we're building classrooms and we're doing this, and
Speaker 3: we're doing that. But without the workforce to fill those classrooms,
Speaker 3: without the workforce to fill those teacher aird roles or
Speaker 3: those senco roles, with those learning support roles, then there's
Speaker 3: no point in them. You need to make sure you've
Speaker 3: got your workforce there to implement your changes, the changes
Speaker 3: that you want, and then they're be abule to get
Speaker 3: the best outcomes.
Speaker 4: For the young people.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Chris, no worries.
Speaker 4: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 2: at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
Speaker 2: produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also
Speaker 2: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page
Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune
Speaker 2: in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.