1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Joseph Gurney, the Huddle Child Fund CEO, and Thomas Scrimger 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: of the Maximum Institute. How are you two? 3 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 2: Hello? 4 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 1: Are you there? Thomas? Hi, you'll like you'll like my 5 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 1: little reference to the Bible because you work for the 6 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: Maximum Institute. 7 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 3: Oh exactly, Hither it's that great to say that you're illiterate. 8 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 1: Thank you very much. I think that's a delay rather 9 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,080 Speaker 1: maybe or maybe I just had him thinking on his 10 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:25,799 Speaker 1: feet right there, Eric Josie, what do you think of 11 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: Erica sending himself the sending herself rather the the Gmail 12 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: account stuff. 13 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,239 Speaker 2: So, I mean, nothing bad has happened, but there is 14 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 2: a precedent for this, right. The reason that politicians have 15 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,639 Speaker 2: their own uh you know, they don't send their their 16 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 2: professional emails that from their political addresses to Gmail is 17 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 2: because there's a risk that stuff leaks or they send it. 18 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:48,599 Speaker 1: Because it's not into encrypted. 19 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 2: But look at the signal thing, the scandal in America 20 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 2: with Pete heg Seth and Mike Waltzh's now lost his job. 21 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 2: It went I mean that it just blew up. It 22 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 2: was it was chaos. Right, they're sending it to journalists, 23 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 2: they're sending it to his wife and his brother and 24 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 2: so on. So the reason why you have these processes 25 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:06,759 Speaker 2: is to protect information that might actually But. 26 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: What I would say to you, Josie is, in the 27 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: case of the signal thing in the US, it wasn't theoretical, right, 28 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: they actually included a journal who should not have seen 29 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 1: any of the stuff at all. They actually included him 30 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: in war plans. This is theoretical with with Erica. As 31 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: far as we know, she's been sending herself some budget 32 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: documents about little old like five million dollars spend in 33 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: New Zealand. Who cares, yes, but it. 34 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 2: Starts there and next thing, you're waging war on Yemen. 35 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 2: You know, you've got to have the rules in place. 36 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 2: So Luxon does have to pull her up. But it's 37 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 2: not a story that lasts beyond today, not unless there's 38 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 2: something else that TV ands and Mikey, which. 39 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: I doubt very much. Thomas, what do you make it? 40 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: You like totally exercised by Erica is sending herself emails 41 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: to her Gmail account. 42 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 3: Well, I'd like to wait till I see the full 43 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 3: story of the details, so I don't jump the gun here. 44 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 3: But obviously it's not a good look. Security is really 45 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 3: important for cabinet ministers. We live in a world that 46 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 3: is not as friendly as it might have been in 47 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 3: the past, so that sort of discipline around data is 48 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 3: pretty important. So I don't know how serious it's going 49 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 3: to be, but certainly Luxon should be taking a hard 50 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 3: look at the decision making and security processes about government information. 51 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: He should tell them to stop doing that. Now, what 52 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: do you think, Thomas about the idea of dealing Well, well, 53 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: I have to be honest with you, I'm disappointed that 54 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: Mike Mitchell didn't want to replace all the short sentences 55 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: with long sentences, are you, Oh, well, I. 56 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 3: Think sentencing is one element of the justice system. I 57 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 3: don't think it's the most important one. I mean, it's 58 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 3: probably more significant that people have a concern that they 59 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 3: will be caught and successfully prosecuted in the first place. 60 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 3: And then the second problem is that the prisons themselves 61 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 3: and Mean Corrections just commissioned the report a couple of 62 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 3: weeks back it came out, and the prisons have just 63 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 3: a profound gang influence. They run a certainly exercise a 64 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 3: strong amount of power in the prisons themselves. So if 65 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 3: that's the state of the prison and seeing people there 66 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 3: for a longer amount of time. Isn't actually going to 67 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 3: solve the problem. So I think there are kind of 68 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 3: other elements other than sentence lengths that could. 69 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: Be Isn't that the opposite of what Mark Mitchell has found, 70 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: Like what he's found is if you do a long sentence, 71 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: you're less likely to reoffend. It's the short sentences. There's 72 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: actually the people who stay there for a short amount 73 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: of time who are likely to go out and do 74 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 1: naughty things. 75 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 3: Again, well, that's possibly correct, but I think Mark Mitchell 76 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 3: doesn't have He said he's looking into this. It's not 77 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 3: an air type plan. This is going ahead. So certainly 78 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 3: it's fair enough to look at sentence lengths are a 79 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 3: part of the justice system and crime, you know, as 80 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 3: a problem that people are concerned about. But in the 81 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 3: first place, prisons aren't first and foremost about rehabilitation and recidivism. 82 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 3: Those are important secondary concerns. But really we should be 83 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 3: looking at are the sentences proportionate to the crimes, Are 84 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 3: the prisons working well as prisons? And then recidivism and 85 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 3: rehabilitation are a second conversation. 86 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: Okay, hold your thought on that, Josey, I'm gonna come 87 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: back to you after the break. I want to hear 88 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: what you've got to say. All right, you're back with 89 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: a huddle Josepiganny and Thomas Scrims. You're right, Josie, what 90 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: did you think of what Mark Mitchell said? 91 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 2: He's looking at the evidence right now and he's not 92 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 2: making any decisions. The first thing I would say is 93 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 2: going to cost billions of dollars. We're already spending an 94 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 2: extra nine billion to make twelve billion on defense, which 95 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 2: I think we need to do. It's a lot of money, 96 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 2: so you've got to do You've got to think about 97 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 2: the trade offs first. That's that's going to be a 98 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 2: lot less money going into health to go into something 99 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 2: where the evidence is mixed. So, yes, this data coming 100 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 2: out saying at the moment looks like shorter sentences, you 101 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 2: come out and recent you do more recidivism and you 102 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 2: cause more crime. But that evidence is quite mixed. If 103 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 2: you look at the evidence around the three strike slaw, 104 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 2: when we had it, crime didn't go down. So people 105 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 2: were getting longer sentences. Crime wasn't going down. The difference 106 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 2: is the rehab, the you know, the halfway houses like 107 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 2: Dave Letelly's parents who run Grace amazing, right, and Howard Lee. 108 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 2: You know they teach people to give them skills like 109 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 2: driving cars. They give them. 110 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: But not allho houses are good, Joseph. 111 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,359 Speaker 2: Not all halfway has gone. But the ones that wrap 112 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 2: some support around them when they come out a job, 113 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 2: something that makes them not go back to the gangs. Right, 114 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 2: a job, a house, learned to drive a car with 115 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 2: a regal license, all of that stuff makes a real difference. 116 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 2: So I think, Mitch, I hope we'll look at all 117 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 2: of that and go where can we do that best? 118 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 2: And consult with Dave Letelly, consult with Shane White out 119 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 2: at Horney White to Tea who does kapahaka in the 120 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 2: prisons and has probably turned around more people than any 121 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,559 Speaker 2: government program. So talk to those guys. 122 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: You get it, right, johnas you reckon that there's a 123 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: trumpy pattern here and what we're seeing with the elections 124 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: and if so. 125 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,359 Speaker 3: What is it? Oh well, I think certainly in the 126 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 3: Canadian elections, Trump had a massive effect. The Conservative leader 127 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 3: Pierre Poliev can probably feel a bit hard done by. 128 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 3: The Canadian national identity is pretty well based around not 129 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 3: being the Americans. So you know, anything that had the 130 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 3: saintest word of Trump and they ran a mile from 131 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 3: I'm not really sure it's the same with Australia. They're 132 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 3: a lot further away. The tariffs aren't quite as severe 133 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 3: for them. Anthony Albinezi has just been elected for his 134 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 3: second term. You normally get a second go. And Peter 135 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 3: Dudden wasn't the strongest candidate. They didn't have a clear 136 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 3: policy vision, they weren't able to articulate that, and just 137 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 3: didn't talk about the things ordinary Australians were worried about. 138 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,280 Speaker 3: And then finally he just wasn't that likable. He wasn't 139 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 3: a charming, charismatic figure. So media love Trump stories because 140 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 3: it gets clicks. It's tempting to look for it, but 141 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 3: it's probably a bit more boring than that Australians cared 142 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 3: about bread and butter issues and the Australian Liberals than 143 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 3: offer them something for them. 144 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 2: I think if you're looking for patterns, there's a lesson 145 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 2: there for opposition parties of any right or left that 146 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 2: if you go into an election thinking that arising the 147 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 2: polls is support for you, and not arising the polls 148 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 2: to say we don't like the incumbents of the government. 149 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 2: So that's what was happening in both Australia and Canada, 150 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 2: and both parties I think mistook that for support for them. 151 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 2: So when that fell away and Trump's chaos looked so 152 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 2: chaotic that you had voters going, I choose competence over chaos. 153 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 2: I choose someone who looks like they could run a corner, 154 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 2: daring over the nutter in the. 155 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: Way say about elections, we always say that elections are 156 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: about the economy, right, yeah, and Donald Trump, so it's 157 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: about what you got in your pocket. And Donald Trump 158 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: and all the chaos that he's causing at the moment 159 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: threatens what you've got in your pocket. It makes you 160 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: feel vulnerable. So that's the other lesson, right, So you 161 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: go from the incumbent and you go for the competent one, 162 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: as you say. 163 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 2: And the lesson for Karney and Albanesi, Australian and Canada 164 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 2: have just suddenly won from incumbency is that people just 165 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 2: want you to make their lives better off. And it's 166 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 2: and I think for the Right that's playing the populace 167 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 2: card here. The lesson is, you know, people don't want woke. 168 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 2: They're very pleased that we're past Pete Woke. They don't 169 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 2: want the opposite of that. They don't want a conservative 170 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 2: gross stuff, and they don't want to sort of over 171 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 2: correction that I've been a conservative culture war. So they're 172 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 2: just sick of talking about it. And I think both 173 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 2: Dutton and Poliver and I'm loving all the different ways 174 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 2: that we're pronouncing his name, but that he campaigned as 175 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 2: the Trump candidate. So did Dutton. Then they tried to 176 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: walk away from that and back off and go I'm 177 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: not Trump, I'm not Trump. I mean, if you saw 178 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 2: Dutton's face when one of his candidates said make Australia 179 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 2: great again, and he went, oh bloody hell. 180 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, poor old Dutton, he wasn't ever going to get elected. 181 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: I mean, you just need to look at his face. Hey, Thomas, 182 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: how much did you spend on your wedding? 183 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 3: Oh well, hither I saw that this might be coming up, 184 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 3: and you'll be pleased to know. In the last two 185 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 3: and a half years, I've been to nine weddings, so 186 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 3: I'm a bit of a wedding attending expert at the moment. 187 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 2: My agent funerals Thomas. 188 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 3: So yeah, that's the other end of things. But honestly, 189 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 3: I heard the interview and the wedding plan of saying 190 00:08:55,800 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 3: kiwis or spending eighty seven thousand dollars on weddings. I 191 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 3: don't know that any of the weddings have been to 192 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 3: in the last couple of years would have spent even 193 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 3: half that. But I think the thing they had in 194 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 3: common is that they weren't hiring wedding planners to organize 195 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 3: their wedding. But I think it is interesting that people 196 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 3: still seem to think weddings are important. You're talking about 197 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 3: delaying them until after other life milestones, but people still 198 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 3: clearly see something in weddings and celebrating commitment, and that's 199 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 3: something that we should encourage. 200 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's because it's your me, me me day, 201 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: isn't it. Joseph? What pressure? 202 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 2: If you've spent eighty nine, let's call it nineteen. 203 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: One of my lister's friends has spent ninety thousand, and 204 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:34,839 Speaker 1: just heard him say on the radio, nobody spent that much. 205 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 2: Now not the happiest day of your life. I mean, 206 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 2: for me, my reading was a blur. I didn't eat anything. 207 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: I hated it. It was hard work. 208 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 2: And if you spent ninety k you'd be just sitting 209 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 2: there going. Oh my god, I'm miserable, and what happened 210 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 2: to the cost of living crisis? 211 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 1: Guys too right, I totally agree what's going on here? Hey, guys, 212 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,359 Speaker 1: thanks very much, really appreciate it. That's a huddle. Josepiguani, 213 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:54,079 Speaker 1: Thomas Scrimer. 214 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 3: For more from Hither duplessy Ellen Drive, listen live to 215 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 3: news talks it'd be from four p DM weekdays, or 216 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 3: follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.