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Speaker 1: Kiota.

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Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

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Speaker 2: daily podcast.

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Speaker 1: Presented by the New Zealand Herald.

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Speaker 2: Billionaire Elon Musk is not content with just having the

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Speaker 2: ear of US President elect Donald Trump. Over the past

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Speaker 2: few weeks, the world's richest man has weighed in on

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Speaker 2: European politics, first writing an op ed backing Germany's far

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Speaker 2: Ride AfD party, But the UK has become a particular obsession,

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Speaker 2: with Mask frequently commenting on his social media platform x

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Speaker 2: about child grooming and rape gangs, laying the blame squarely

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Speaker 2: at the feet of the six month old labor government.

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Speaker 2: So why is the tech mogul so interested in politics overseas?

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Speaker 1: And how are the US's.

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Speaker 2: European allies meant to respond when Mask is firmly in

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Speaker 2: Trump's inner circle. Today on the Front Page, CNN's senior

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Speaker 2: political correspondent, Stephen Collinson joins us from Washington, DC to

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Speaker 2: discuss the thinking behind Mask's political commentary. First off, Stephen,

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Speaker 2: can you remind us of what Elon Musk's role is

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Speaker 2: going to be with the incoming Trump administration?

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Speaker 3: Well, officially, Musk is going to be the co head

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Speaker 3: of a new agency within the government a de facto

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Speaker 3: agency called the Department of Government Efficiency. This is a

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Speaker 3: body which Trump says will come up with recommendations to

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Speaker 3: slash wasteful government spending and regulations. In fact, many of

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Speaker 3: the regulations potentially that Elon Musk's companies benefit from or

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Speaker 3: are constrained by. So that's one of the issues here,

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Speaker 3: one of the reasons why a lot of people fear

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Speaker 3: that his presence in the center of the government will

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Speaker 3: create huge conflicts of interest. But Musk has a finger

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Speaker 3: and a lot of pies around the world, not just

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Speaker 3: as the head of Tesla and SpaceX, which has billions

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Speaker 3: of dollars of contracts from.

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Speaker 4: The US government.

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Speaker 3: He has businesses in many countries, business interests, for example,

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Speaker 3: in countries like China that could see clashes with American

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Speaker 3: foreign policy. So we've never in the modern era had

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Speaker 3: someone like this, the world's richest man, so intimately entwined

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Speaker 3: with an administration. So this is a really unprecedented moment, I.

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Speaker 2: Think, And can you give us a bit of an

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Speaker 2: overview of some of the ways Mask has intervened in

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Speaker 2: European politics in recent weeks.

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Speaker 3: Certainly the most recent one that has caused A great

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Speaker 3: deal of controversy is his intervening in the issue of

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Speaker 3: a grooming scandal in the United Kingdom. The current Prime Minister,

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Speaker 3: Keir Starmer, used to be the Director of Public Prosecutions

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Speaker 3: in the UK and he was in charge at one

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Speaker 3: point about a decade ago, of investigating some of these

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Speaker 3: abuses young women in the North of England. Musk has

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Speaker 3: resuscitated all the controversy around that, and he's accusing Keir

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Speaker 3: Starmer falsely in fact, of doing nothing to prosecute these abuses.

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Speaker 3: So that has caused a huge issue in British politics.

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Speaker 3: He was also using his social media network x in

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Speaker 3: the eyes of the British government, incites racial hatred. That's

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Speaker 3: another issue that has really rocked British politics. But Musk

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Speaker 3: has also intervened in the German election which will take

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Speaker 3: place next month. He is backing the AfD, the Alternative

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Speaker 3: for Germany party, which is a far right wing anti

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Speaker 3: immigrant party. I think you could argue that there's been

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Speaker 3: a resurgence of populism in Europe in recent months, and

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Speaker 3: there are parties in France and Germany and the United

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Speaker 3: Kingdom that Trump would far rather deal with than the

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Speaker 3: incumbent governments. So I think we're going to see a

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Speaker 3: lot of nervousness and a lot of resentment in Europe

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Speaker 3: if must continue this behavior when Trump is present.

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Speaker 5: Those that are spreading lies and in misinformation as far

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Speaker 5: and as wide as possible, they're not interested in victims,

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Speaker 5: They're interested in themselves. But I enjoy the cut and

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Speaker 5: thrust of politics, the robust debate that we must have,

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Speaker 5: but that's got to be based on facts and truth,

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Speaker 5: not on lies, not on those who are so desperate

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Speaker 5: for attention that they're prepared to debase themselves and their country.

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Speaker 2: How have Europeans it has responded to Musk's commentary well.

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Speaker 3: The British Prime Minister Keir Starmer, who I mentioned, was

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Speaker 3: compelled to make a statement. He said that Musk had

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Speaker 3: crossed the line after he said that the British prime

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Speaker 3: minister responsible for safeguarding children should be jailed. French President

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Speaker 3: Emmanuel Macron is accusing Musk of backing a knew what

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Speaker 3: he called international reactionary movement, talking about those parties on

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Speaker 3: the right. The German government has already criticized Musk for

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Speaker 3: what they say is interference in their affairs with his

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Speaker 3: backing for the AfD and in Norway the prime minister there.

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Speaker 4: So it was worrying that Musk had so much.

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Speaker 3: Power and then he had the capacity to intervene in

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Speaker 3: the affairs of other countries. So I think there is

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Speaker 3: resentment and it's not just Musk saying things on x

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Speaker 3: He has a great deal of money. He for example,

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Speaker 3: put down more than one hundred million dollars of his

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Speaker 3: own money to back Trump in the election in November.

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Speaker 3: Trump used some of that money to create turnout efforts

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Speaker 3: in the key state of Pennsylvania. There's a lot of

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Speaker 3: speculation about whether Musk will use his money to back

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Speaker 3: parties in Europe, for example, the Reform Party of Nigel

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Speaker 3: Farage in the UK, the.

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Speaker 4: Father of Brexit.

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Speaker 3: There was a lot of speculation that Musk could send

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Speaker 3: millions of dollars to the Reform Party and Opposition Party

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Speaker 3: in the UK, although that seems to have still because

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Speaker 3: Farage seems to have fallen out with Musk because he

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Speaker 3: didn't share the Tesla Pioneer's views about a British guy

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Speaker 3: called Tommy Robinson who's actually in jail and is accused

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Speaker 3: by the government of inciting violence. So Musk's money, I

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Speaker 3: think is going to be a real player in some

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Speaker 3: of these elections if he decides to do more than

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Speaker 3: just speak out on X and giving.

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Speaker 2: Musk is going to be working with the incoming government

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Speaker 2: the US. Does it make it difficult to kind of

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Speaker 2: differentiate his reckons online versus actual US foreign policy.

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Speaker 4: I think that's going to be a question.

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Speaker 3: And the thing that foreign leaders have to ask is

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Speaker 3: is this Musk just muck raking trying to stir up

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Speaker 3: trouble just so you liked doing it, or is it

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Speaker 3: being done on behalf of the president of the United States.

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Speaker 3: And that brings them to another question. They have to

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Speaker 3: work out how to respond to Musk and push back

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Speaker 3: if they want to without alienating future President Donald Trump.

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Speaker 3: A lot of European Asian governments has spent a lot

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Speaker 3: of time in the last six months or so trying

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Speaker 3: to get close to Trump, trying to penetrate his inner

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Speaker 3: circle in the belief that he could well. As happened

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Speaker 3: when the election, some of those efforts are now in doubt. Starma,

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Speaker 3: for example, had dinner with Trump before the election and

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Speaker 3: believe that he had made strides in getting a good

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Speaker 3: relationship with the present elect that could be in jeopardy

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Speaker 3: if Trump sees Starma criticizing Elon Musk. So I think

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Speaker 3: it's going to be a very complex issue for some

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Speaker 3: of these governments to work out whether Musk is really

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Speaker 3: pushing official American policy or whether he's just pushing policies

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Speaker 3: that favor his mirial of business interests.

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Speaker 2: Well, there was a battle amongst Magas circles over the holidays,

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Speaker 2: with Musk and fellow DOGE boss Vivek Ramaswami clashing with

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Speaker 2: other Republicans over.

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Speaker 1: Visas for skilled workers. Trump seemed to side with the

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Speaker 1: tech bros on this one.

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Speaker 2: But what do you think this saga suggests about the

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Speaker 2: next four years.

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Speaker 4: I think this is a this is.

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Speaker 3: A fascinating argument, and I think it's one that tells

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Speaker 3: us that some things in Trump's second term could be

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Speaker 3: different from his first term. The issue was over H

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Speaker 3: one B visas, which allow tech companies to bring highly

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Speaker 3: qualified engineers and software experts and programmers into the United

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Speaker 3: States to work, and they're used a great deal in

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Speaker 3: Silicon Valley companies. The traditional Trump based people like Steve Bannon,

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Speaker 3: Trump's former populist political guru, are against these visas. Much

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Speaker 3: of the Trump bases anti immigration. People like Bannons say

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Speaker 3: that the visas allow US firms to undercut wages that

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Speaker 3: they should be paying to American workers. Musk and a

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Speaker 3: lot of the leading Silicon Valley executives argue that in

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Speaker 3: order for America's software and tech industry sustay competitive with

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Speaker 3: countries like China, you have to be able to import

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Speaker 3: the best talent wherever they're from. Must says that he

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Speaker 3: himself as an example of this. Of course, he was

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Speaker 3: born in South Africa. So this is a fault line

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Speaker 3: between the two wings of the new Trump coalition, the

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Speaker 3: existing magabase and the new, as you call it, the

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Speaker 3: tech bro Maga constituency. I think we're going to see

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Speaker 3: classes again and again on this fault line in the

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Speaker 3: next administration. And it's particularly interesting because during his first term,

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump rarely got crossways with his political base. He's

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Speaker 3: not a politician that builds up political capital and spends

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Speaker 3: it in a lot of different situations, especially on the

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Speaker 3: issue of immigration, but also on gun control and other issues.

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Speaker 3: Trump backed down in things he was going to do

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Speaker 3: because they were unpopular with his base. So we get

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Speaker 3: to a point now when we're asking will he side

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Speaker 3: with his traditional supporters, his nationalist, populist heartland supporters, or

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Speaker 3: will he go with these people in the new coalition,

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Speaker 3: people like Elon Musk, And I think that's going to

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Speaker 3: be a source of constant tension in the months ahead.

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Speaker 1: The new one is president Trump proceeded the presidency Musk. No, No,

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Speaker 1: that's that happening.

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Speaker 3: But Elon has done an amazing job.

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Speaker 4: Isn't it nice to have smart.

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Speaker 5: People that we could rely on.

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Speaker 1: No, he's not going to be president. That I can't

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Speaker 1: tell you, and I'm safe. You know why he can't be.

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Speaker 5: He wasn't born in this country.

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Speaker 2: Ah, do you think Musk will eventually become a thorn

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Speaker 2: in Trump's side?

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Speaker 3: So a lot of people spend a lot of time

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Speaker 3: since Musk became this ubiquitous companion of the present elect,

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Speaker 3: predicting that sooner or later they would fall out. Generally,

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Speaker 3: people that come into Trump's in the circle always end

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Speaker 3: up falling out with the present elect.

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Speaker 4: He often looks for culprits when they go wrong.

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Speaker 3: He believes that he should get all the headlines and

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Speaker 3: the adulation, and Musk is a competing star in the

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Speaker 3: Trump orbit. Right now, he's getting far more headlines than

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Speaker 3: the present elect himself. So a lot of people think

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Speaker 3: it's a matter of time before they clash. I believe

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Speaker 3: that there are many reasons why, even if the relationship

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Speaker 3: cools somewhat, it is in both the interests of Trump

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Speaker 3: and Musk to make sure that it stays in good

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Speaker 3: standing at least for the next couple of years. Musk

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Speaker 3: is going to be in a very advantageous position. He's

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Speaker 3: going to be able to reshape the US regulatory regime

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Speaker 3: that in a way that could help his companies. It

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Speaker 3: wouldn't be at all surprising if he gets billions more

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Speaker 3: in contracts. He's basically at this point running much of

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Speaker 3: the US space program, the push to return to the

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Speaker 3: Moon and Mars, so he doesn't want to take any

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Speaker 3: steps that I think alienate him from the next President Trump.

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Speaker 3: When you look at Trump, Musk doesn't seem like the

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Speaker 3: kind of enemy that the president elect really would like

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Speaker 3: to have to deal with. He's hugely powerful, not just

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Speaker 3: because of his business interests, but he tweets or I

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Speaker 3: don't know what you call it, X is now on

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Speaker 3: X plentiful times a day.

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Speaker 4: He could turn.

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Speaker 3: Out to be a real theign in his side, as

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Speaker 3: you suggest, if they fall out and Republicans they've got

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Speaker 3: their eyes on Musk's money. They want to use Musk's

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Speaker 3: wealth in the midterm elections in November twenty twenty six,

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Speaker 3: elections that could, if history tells us anything, be quite

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Speaker 3: tough for the incumbent Republican Party. So there are many

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Speaker 3: reasons why Musk and Trump have incentives not to fall

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Speaker 3: out with one another.

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Speaker 5: How much do you think we can rip out of

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Speaker 5: this wasted six point five trillion.

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Speaker 4: Dollar horse five? Well, I think we can do at

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Speaker 4: least two trillion.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, at the end of the day, you're being taxed,

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Speaker 2: your money is being wasted, and.

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Speaker 1: The Apartment of Government demasiency is going.

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Speaker 4: To fix that. America's not not It's just going to

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Speaker 4: be great. America is going to reach heights that it

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Speaker 4: has never seen before.

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Speaker 1: The future is gonna be amazing.

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Speaker 2: You've written, they, as in Trump and Mask, are demonstrating

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Speaker 2: a belief that their strength allows them to bully smaller

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Speaker 2: countries and may auger a new and brasher incarnation of America. First, now,

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Speaker 2: this line struck me because, of course New Zealand is

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Speaker 2: a smaller country.

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Speaker 1: Do you think it's only a matter of.

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Speaker 2: Time before the focus perhaps shifts from Europe to say,

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Speaker 2: the Pacific.

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Speaker 4: That's a good question.

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Speaker 3: I think for now the major focus is the Western Hemisphere.

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Speaker 4: For Trump.

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Speaker 3: He is threatening twenty five percent taris on Canada, he

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Speaker 3: is threatening to take back the Panama Canal by force,

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Speaker 3: looking at Transatlantic securities, talking about trying to buy Greenland again.

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Speaker 3: I think we're also very likely to see tariff threats

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Speaker 3: against the European Union as soon as Trump gets back

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Speaker 3: into office. I think New Zealand would have the bad

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Speaker 3: luck to get to get Trump's I if somebody in

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Speaker 3: Trump's in a circle mentioned something about New Zealand. Often

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Speaker 3: Trump's resentments and anger towards foreign countries is stirred by

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Speaker 3: someone he meets. So perhaps it would be smart of

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Speaker 3: the New Zealand government to take care not to do

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Speaker 3: anything that catches Trump's eye and hope, as many other

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Speaker 3: governments will, that the initial storm of the start of

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Speaker 3: his new presidency will pass.

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Speaker 4: But Trump, generally when.

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Speaker 3: He sees people down at Mara Lago, he has a

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Speaker 3: very wide circle of friends who bring him and there's

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Speaker 3: a theory that one of his friends, for instance, might

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Speaker 3: be a shipping magnet was complaining about the cost of

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Speaker 3: shipping stuff through the Panama Canal, and that's what got

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Speaker 3: Trump angry. But he does take a very transactional view

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Speaker 3: of the world. I think he sees the world and

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Speaker 3: he sees life really through a prism of who is

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Speaker 3: strong and who is weak. And he believes that he

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Speaker 3: and the United States are strong and they have the

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Speaker 3: right to push narrow national interests. And if he perceives

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Speaker 3: at some point that United States interests are being compromised

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Speaker 3: by New Zealand in some way, that would be I

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Speaker 3: think when he turns is his attention to you guys.

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Speaker 3: So hopefully for now at least, he's got other targets.

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Speaker 1: And what do you think Mask's end game is here?

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Speaker 2: Ultimately, what does he want to get out of being

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Speaker 2: seen as this kind of power behind the throne.

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Speaker 3: It's a good question, and he's not really spoken about this.

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Speaker 3: I think that he clearly seems to enjoy being part

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Speaker 3: of the spotlight. He's been around trumpet Mara Lago for

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Speaker 3: much of the time since Trump's election victory. I expect

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Speaker 3: we'll see him play a prominent role in the inauguration.

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Speaker 3: He has been in meetings with Trump with world leaders,

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Speaker 3: taking part in phone calls, for example, with President Zelanski.

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Speaker 4: So he clearly has a lot of you know, he

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Speaker 4: doesn't need any more money.

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Speaker 3: He's already the richest man in the world, but he

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Speaker 3: seems to very much enjoy wielding the influence that he

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Speaker 3: gets by proximity to the most powerful man in the world.

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Speaker 4: What he will do.

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Speaker 3: Afterwards, I mean, Trump can only be in office for

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Speaker 3: four more years, for example, does it get to a

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Speaker 3: point where Musk gets bored of politics, where he finds,

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Speaker 3: for example, that the business of trying to cut trillions

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Speaker 3: of dollars in the US budget is a very difficult

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Speaker 3: business and one that's not that interesting. It's possible that

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Speaker 3: he could get bored from politics and you know find

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Speaker 3: you know, launching rockets and designing electric cars is a

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Speaker 3: much more interesting of his time. But I don't think

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Speaker 3: we really know exactly what he wants, and that's one

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Speaker 3: of the things we'll be watching and seeing how prominent

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Speaker 3: a role he does take, not just in cutting the

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Speaker 3: size of government, but in Trump's in a circle on

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Speaker 3: whether he gets to wield even more power than he

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Speaker 3: does already.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Steven no Warris.

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Speaker 4: Thanks.

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Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You

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Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

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Speaker 2: at enzedherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is

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Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also

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Speaker 2: our sound engineer.

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Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels.

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Speaker 2: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you

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Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look

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Speaker 2: behind the headlines.