WEBVTT - Inside the showdown between senior doctors and Health NZ over pay

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<v Speaker 1>Kilda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,

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<v Speaker 1>a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Thousands

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<v Speaker 1>of senior doctors are on strike until midnight tonight after

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<v Speaker 1>walking off the job yesterday. Their long running pay dispute

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<v Speaker 1>with Health New Zealand continues, with doctors saying the latest

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<v Speaker 1>offer represents a real pay cut when recruitment and retention

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<v Speaker 1>is critical. Meanwhile, Health Minister Simeon Brown claims they're putting

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<v Speaker 1>pay and politics ahead of patients after thousands of elective

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<v Speaker 1>procedures and appointments have been postponed. So what will end

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<v Speaker 1>this cycle of disputes and strikes and how do we

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<v Speaker 1>fix our health system that's been in crisis for decades.

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<v Speaker 1>Today on the Front Page, Asms Executive Director Sarah Dalton

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<v Speaker 1>is with us to break down the latest in talks

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<v Speaker 1>and what we can do in future. What are the

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<v Speaker 1>main issues driving senior doctors and dentists to strike and

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<v Speaker 1>how long have talks with the Health New Zealand has

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<v Speaker 1>been stalled.

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<v Speaker 2>There are really two big parts I think to the

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<v Speaker 2>strike action for our members. One is the staffing shortages

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<v Speaker 2>and the other is the fact that Health New Zealand

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<v Speaker 2>has continued to offer real terms pay cuts to our

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<v Speaker 2>members year on year since COVID. So on the one hand,

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<v Speaker 2>everyone acknowledges there are significant staff and gaps and a

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<v Speaker 2>number of specialties and a number of hospitals around New Zealand.

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<v Speaker 2>But on the other hand, knowing this, health New Zealand

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<v Speaker 2>appears to be doing nothing to address retention or recruitment.

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<v Speaker 2>And the obvious way to deal with retention and recruitment

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<v Speaker 2>is through better terms and conditions, right, And I guess

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<v Speaker 2>the other frustration is that while they're crying poor and

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<v Speaker 2>saying that we've got We've given you all the money

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<v Speaker 2>we possibly can, we have nothing more to offer to

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<v Speaker 2>settle terms and conditions for salary to doctors and dentists.

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<v Speaker 2>Just in the last twelve months they shelled out over

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<v Speaker 2>two hundred million dollars on locums, which is effectively tempts.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, So they do have money, they're just choosing

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<v Speaker 2>to spend it in interesting ways.

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<v Speaker 1>And what are some of those interesting ways?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, for example, why would you prioritize.

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<v Speaker 2>Letting locum rates go up and up and up for

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<v Speaker 2>temporary labor who, of course do a good job, but

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<v Speaker 2>they don't do the whole job, and they're not here

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<v Speaker 2>for the long haul. While at the same time you're

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<v Speaker 2>saying to a salary doctor, no, we're not going to

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<v Speaker 2>pay you a retention allowance for working in Gisbon or

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<v Speaker 2>in Vicago, or we're not going to pay a recruitment

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<v Speaker 2>allowance for guyne oncologists because there are hardly any left

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<v Speaker 2>in this country that it would be actually cheaper for

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<v Speaker 2>Health New Zealand and better for the public if they

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<v Speaker 2>incentivize salaried work and disincentivized locan work. So the story

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<v Speaker 2>was that, you know, under twenty DHBs they could drive

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<v Speaker 2>up the rates, you know, by one hospital competing against

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<v Speaker 2>another for locums. Yet under a single employer they have

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<v Speaker 2>driven up the rates as a single employer for locums.

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<v Speaker 2>So you can earn a huge amount of money by saying, look,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll volunteer to go and work in this place for

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<v Speaker 2>a week or over a weekend or whatever. Yet the

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<v Speaker 2>people who are there all of the time, running the department,

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<v Speaker 2>doing the planning, doing the audit, supervising other staff are

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<v Speaker 2>earning significantly less.

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<v Speaker 3>So it does seem a little bit back to front.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I was going to say, do a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>people just forego the salaried work and just go and

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<v Speaker 1>be like, yeah, I'll do the casual loco work.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, that's starting to be the case, and that is

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<v Speaker 3>what our real worry is. It is already a real

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<v Speaker 3>trend in psychiatry where there are massive staff and gaps

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<v Speaker 3>and a number of services will have more locums than

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<v Speaker 3>salaried specialists on staff now and that's terrible, particularly because

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<v Speaker 3>in mental health you're often looking for continuity of care.

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<v Speaker 3>You are looking for the people that are in the

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<v Speaker 3>care of our specialist mental health services. You know they

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<v Speaker 3>do better when they have stable staff who are there

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<v Speaker 3>to get to know them and work with them. And

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<v Speaker 3>I'm not trying to diss the people who are working

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<v Speaker 3>as locums. We know they're doing valuable work and we

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<v Speaker 3>know that there are a lot of places that can

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<v Speaker 3>you have to rely on them because of decisions made

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<v Speaker 3>by DHBs and Health New Zealand about lower and the

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<v Speaker 3>staffing levels. Effectively, we see there's been a sink England

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<v Speaker 3>on staffing for some time.

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<v Speaker 1>How do senior doctors respond to the claims that their

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<v Speaker 1>action amounts to quote, putting pay and politics ahead of patients.

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<v Speaker 1>That's suggested by the Health minister.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, that's his job, isn't it. You know, he's a politician.

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<v Speaker 3>He's playing politics, and that's fine. But our members aren't politicians.

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<v Speaker 3>They're doctors.

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<v Speaker 2>It's really hard for them to take strike action because

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<v Speaker 2>they are trying to put patients first. They are trained

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<v Speaker 2>not to walk away from people who need care. But

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<v Speaker 2>it has reached the point now that the health system

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<v Speaker 2>is actually on a daily basis preventing them from giving

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<v Speaker 2>people the care they need. I guess the term that

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<v Speaker 2>academics use for this is moral injury, the injury that

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<v Speaker 2>you suffer when you're actually prevented from doing the work

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<v Speaker 2>that you're trained to do in the way and so

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<v Speaker 2>our members spend a lot of time trying to do

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<v Speaker 2>the least worst thing for patients rather than the best thing.

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<v Speaker 1>This understaffing and the health crisis that we talk about

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<v Speaker 1>has been going on for successive governments. How do we

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<v Speaker 1>put an end to it fair and square, Because I'm

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<v Speaker 1>pretty sure that a majority of the public wouldn't mind

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<v Speaker 1>tax dollars going towards our health system because that's where

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<v Speaker 1>we go when we you know, we're at our most

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<v Speaker 1>vulnerable and we need the most help, right, So how

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<v Speaker 1>does this?

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<v Speaker 3>How do we stop this?

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's a really great question. I mean, this government,

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<v Speaker 2>this particular government, loves targets. We don't love the targets

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<v Speaker 2>they've picked. But if they want to obsess about targets,

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<v Speaker 2>how about a workforce target or two to go alongside

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<v Speaker 2>the care.

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<v Speaker 3>Targets, because it's I think it's another thing.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's really hard for hospital staff when they

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<v Speaker 2>know they're really short staffed, and then they've given all

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<v Speaker 2>these supposed productivity targets, performance targets that they have to

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<v Speaker 2>meet when they know that there's no way that that.

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<v Speaker 3>Can realistically happen. So some workforce targets would be great.

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<v Speaker 3>And then I think there needs to be some multi

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<v Speaker 3>party agreements about the kind of hospital system, the kind

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<v Speaker 3>of health system that New Zealand is willing to continue

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<v Speaker 3>to fund and to provide. And if we've got some

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<v Speaker 3>multi party buy into some health basics, you know, and

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<v Speaker 3>even health basics are pretty expensive, defining what our health basics?

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<v Speaker 3>Does that include.

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<v Speaker 2>Hips, does that include age, residential care, does it include

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<v Speaker 2>dentistry which it currently does, and of course you know

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<v Speaker 2>what services does it include?

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<v Speaker 3>What have people got a right to expect and then

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<v Speaker 3>we could You know, there are people out there that

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<v Speaker 3>know how to calculate what level of resource, what level

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<v Speaker 3>of staffing is required, and obviously for a number of

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<v Speaker 3>people now the question needs to be asked, how close

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<v Speaker 3>to home can your care be provided. You know, there's

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<v Speaker 3>a massive growth of Tallyhealth. That's a great supplement to

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<v Speaker 3>other kinds of healthcare. But if that's all you're being

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<v Speaker 3>offered because you happen to live rurally, or because where

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<v Speaker 3>you live all of the GP practices are full and

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<v Speaker 3>they're not taking more patients, it is a poor second

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<v Speaker 3>to face to face care. And I'm not trying to

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<v Speaker 3>diss tallyhealth and it has its place, but simply as

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<v Speaker 3>a substitute for in person care, I don't think that's

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<v Speaker 3>good enough. I don't think that's what New Zealanders expect

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<v Speaker 3>their tax dollars to buy. And again, it's a privatized

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<v Speaker 3>way of providing care because most of that care is

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<v Speaker 3>contracted out. So you know, we've put out a recent

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<v Speaker 3>report about how health has been funded. We know that

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<v Speaker 3>since twenty eighteen, New Zealand has not been submitting its

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<v Speaker 3>health resource and data to the OECD. So all of

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<v Speaker 3>the comparators that are made between us in like countries

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<v Speaker 3>are rough guesses, they're rough estimates, and they're overestimates because

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<v Speaker 3>we've also been including GST in the way health spend

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<v Speaker 3>has been costed, which other countries don't do, so we've

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<v Speaker 3>been overinflating what's been spent on health in this country.

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<v Speaker 3>And also now we no longer seem to have the

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<v Speaker 3>capability within the Ministry of Health to submit the data

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<v Speaker 3>for international comparisons. They just seem so fundamental, and it

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<v Speaker 3>took this recent report that we commission to uncover that

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<v Speaker 3>people didn't know that that was no longer happening. So

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<v Speaker 3>we've got some really fundamental things that need to be rethought,

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<v Speaker 3>I think, by government, by the policy people who advise government,

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<v Speaker 3>and I think now is a great time for.

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<v Speaker 2>People, through community groups and just speaking up directly to

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<v Speaker 2>let government and opposition know what kind of health system

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<v Speaker 2>we want, we expect.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, senior doctors are wanting to strike. That's going

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<v Speaker 4>to cause grief to thirteen thousand patients this week, which

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<v Speaker 4>I don't think is very fair.

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<v Speaker 3>But but hang on, they're striking for a reason, right,

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<v Speaker 3>They don't just do that on a whim.

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<v Speaker 4>No sure, but but what they are doing is that

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<v Speaker 4>they've had a year of negotiations. The Minister said, let's

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<v Speaker 4>get this resolved after a year, let's go to binding arbitration.

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<v Speaker 4>That was rejected outright and as a result they're going

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<v Speaker 4>through to strike. I mean, you just have to remember

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<v Speaker 4>these are some of the most well paid public servants

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<v Speaker 4>we have in the country. You know, they've put another

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<v Speaker 4>offer from healthyw Zealand on top, just recently another one

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<v Speaker 4>hundred and sixty million dollars of taxpayer funding to get

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<v Speaker 4>five and a half thousand senior doctors contracts resolved. Our

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<v Speaker 4>viewers stay in the bargaining process, go into strikes.

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<v Speaker 1>The Minister's also pointed to the average renumeration of senior

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<v Speaker 1>doctors that's just over three hundred and forty three thousand

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<v Speaker 1>dollars six weeks and you'll leave in a fully paid

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<v Speaker 1>six months sabbatical every six years. Now, this wouldn't be

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<v Speaker 1>the first time that we've seen a minister conflate figures

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<v Speaker 1>like this. Would you agree?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I don't agree, and I'll start with it's a

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<v Speaker 2>three month sabbatical after every six years. And many members

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<v Speaker 2>wrote to us last time he bandied about that three

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<v Speaker 2>hundred and forty seven thousand dollars number in Setif I

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<v Speaker 2>was earning that much money, I would not be going

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<v Speaker 2>on strike. I would not be concerned about where this

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<v Speaker 2>is going. And I think it's also another cheap line

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<v Speaker 2>that politicians and some health leaders like to use, is oh, well,

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<v Speaker 2>there are international medical workforce shortages. You know, we're in

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<v Speaker 2>a competitor international markets, So what can we do well,

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<v Speaker 2>do more than you're doing at the moment. Don't slag

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<v Speaker 2>off those specialists who we need. Think about what it

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<v Speaker 2>is New Zealand can do. If we can't match Australian salaries,

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<v Speaker 2>what could we do that would make people want to

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<v Speaker 2>stay here or want to come here instead of going

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<v Speaker 2>to Australia. Because you know, nearly fifty percent of our

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<v Speaker 2>medical senior medical workforce comes from overseas, so we have

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<v Speaker 2>to be thoughtful about how we continue to attract those

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<v Speaker 2>people and keep them here because we have a heavy

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<v Speaker 2>reliance on them. We could not run our health system

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<v Speaker 2>without those people. So the long term solution is to

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<v Speaker 2>train more doctors in New Zealand, but that's it'll be

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<v Speaker 2>a lot, very long time.

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<v Speaker 3>If ever, that we train enough of.

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<v Speaker 2>Our own senior doctors and dentists here, So if we

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<v Speaker 2>can't match Australian salaries, what could we do differently? Oh,

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<v Speaker 2>we could staff really generously, right, So you know a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of our members when I talked to them, they said,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I don't used to mind that we were

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<v Speaker 2>relatively poorly paid. But the Australian comparison is an important

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<v Speaker 2>one because so many of them are in Australasian colleges,

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<v Speaker 2>so they train with groups of people who disperse across

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<v Speaker 2>both countries, so they're on chatting terms with a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of people working in Australia. I didn't used to mind

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<v Speaker 2>that they earned so much more than us because I

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<v Speaker 2>had a great work life balance, I had lots of colleagues,

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<v Speaker 2>I had interesting, challenging work, and people listened to us

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<v Speaker 2>and they valued our views on how to better run

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<v Speaker 2>our service, how to better run our hospital, how to

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<v Speaker 2>better serve our community. Now they feel like they're not heard,

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<v Speaker 2>they are sanctioned if they speak out. They don't have

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<v Speaker 2>enough colleagues. They are really tired, lots of burnout, and

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<v Speaker 2>they're like, no one listens to me anymore, So I

0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:54.600
<v Speaker 2>may as well chase more money because there's nothing else left.

0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:58.080
<v Speaker 2>That is a terrible situation for us to have put

0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:01.960
<v Speaker 2>those people in. But that is, you know, that is

0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:02.800
<v Speaker 2>what they will say.

0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:05.640
<v Speaker 1>What's next, Sarah?

0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:06.480
<v Speaker 3>Look, what I.

0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:11.640
<v Speaker 2>Really hope is that we can get some more I

0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:14.880
<v Speaker 2>was going to say more intelligent engagement across the table obviously,

0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:18.360
<v Speaker 2>which sounds harsh, but it's been pretty empty right. The

0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:22.000
<v Speaker 2>only times Health New Zealand has brought even brought an

0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:24.240
<v Speaker 2>offer to the table, let alone improve it is when

0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:27.280
<v Speaker 2>we've called strike action. Now, that's pretty blunt and pretty basic.

0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:29.960
<v Speaker 2>We would have liked to have had senior enough people

0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:32.960
<v Speaker 2>across the table right from the start to work through

0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:36.240
<v Speaker 2>issues with us. Can we talk about staffing levels? Can

0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:38.800
<v Speaker 2>we talk about where your workforce planning is at? Can

0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:42.840
<v Speaker 2>we talk about where our collective agreement, where our negotiations

0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:45.360
<v Speaker 2>fit into that and the short and the medium term.

0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:48.200
<v Speaker 2>Can we have a conversation about that. Can we have

0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:51.000
<v Speaker 2>some commitments that we can take to our members that

0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:53.560
<v Speaker 2>say we can you know, we can give you this

0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:54.679
<v Speaker 2>now and that later.

0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:57.840
<v Speaker 3>Is that good enough? We don't get that.

0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:01.120
<v Speaker 2>We get you can have this much, but no more.

0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:03.680
<v Speaker 2>And also if we give you this much. Don't tell

0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:06.400
<v Speaker 2>the others because they'll want it to like it's real

0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:09.920
<v Speaker 2>kindergarten stuff, or they'll say and to make up the

0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:11.720
<v Speaker 2>difference because they don't want to They don't want to

0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:15.040
<v Speaker 2>include a settlement that covers the year we've been em bargaining,

0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:18.760
<v Speaker 2>so no backdating. Effectively, they're saying, instead of that, here's

0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:20.520
<v Speaker 2>a lump of money, spend it how you like.

0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:24.800
<v Speaker 3>Now, that is not what I would call quality negotiations

0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:27.240
<v Speaker 3>what I would like them to do.

0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:29.520
<v Speaker 2>And when we came back the other day and said, well,

0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:34.360
<v Speaker 2>continuing medical education, it's really important for specialists to maintain

0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:40.800
<v Speaker 2>currency of their knowledge. That fund, which is to reimburse

0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:45.200
<v Speaker 2>doctors for the costs of attending conferences, doing courses, making

0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:45.800
<v Speaker 2>sure that their.

0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:46.600
<v Speaker 3>Knowledge is up to date.

0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:49.360
<v Speaker 2>That amount hasn't gone up since about two thousand and nine.

0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:51.400
<v Speaker 2>How about we put a bit more money into that

0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:54.480
<v Speaker 2>And they said, oh, oh no, we don't think we

0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:56.960
<v Speaker 2>could do that, you know, or we'd have to.

0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:59.600
<v Speaker 3>Go and check. It's like, well, go and check then,

0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:03.560
<v Speaker 3>you know, go and check now. And I'm consumed because

0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:05.240
<v Speaker 3>it sounds like I'm bargaining through the media now and

0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:06.600
<v Speaker 3>I don't want to do that, but it isn't.

0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:11.880
<v Speaker 2>It's just very frustrating, you know when we actually would

0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:14.320
<v Speaker 2>like to have a conversation of like, you don't want

0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:15.960
<v Speaker 2>to put money on seeing me, can you talk to

0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:19.120
<v Speaker 2>us about why that is? And you know you don't

0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:22.880
<v Speaker 2>want to increase your contribution to superannuation. We know one

0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:24.720
<v Speaker 2>of the reasons they don't want to, so they make

0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:29.640
<v Speaker 2>a six percent up to a six percent contribution super

0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:33.480
<v Speaker 2>is one of the strongest retention things an employer can do,

0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:38.800
<v Speaker 2>right because it's a shared commitment to sticking around, and

0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:41.840
<v Speaker 2>they don't want to do it because they don't offer

0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:46.040
<v Speaker 2>six percent to nurses or allied health workers or admin

0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:48.680
<v Speaker 2>staff in Health New Zealand. Again, it's like, oh, if

0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:50.560
<v Speaker 2>you have that, other people will want it. We don't

0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:52.280
<v Speaker 2>want to give it to them. Why don't you want

0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:55.000
<v Speaker 2>to give it to them? They're holding a health system up.

0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:58.440
<v Speaker 2>You should be offering to match all of our health

0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:02.120
<v Speaker 2>workers superannuation to whatever the key we say the maximum is.

0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:04.000
<v Speaker 2>I think it might be up around ten percent. Now,

0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:05.400
<v Speaker 2>why don't.

0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:07.760
<v Speaker 3>You do that? It's only a cost of people choose

0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:11.640
<v Speaker 3>to contribute that much themselves and it shows value. But

0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:15.280
<v Speaker 3>we're not having that kind of a conversation. It's a

0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:17.880
<v Speaker 3>scraping the bottom of the barrel kind of a conversation,

0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:22.640
<v Speaker 3>you know, And what's the least we can do to

0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:25.600
<v Speaker 3>make you stop this? That's pretty much the vibe. You know.

0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:30.880
<v Speaker 3>Our members find it disrespectful, you know, they really it's disheartening. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:32.720
<v Speaker 3>they just don't like it at all.

0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:36.800
<v Speaker 2>Hence here we are with the forty eight hour strike, unprecedented,

0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:39.640
<v Speaker 2>and our members are really unhappy about it.

0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:41.720
<v Speaker 3>You know, they don't want to be doing that. They

0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:46.520
<v Speaker 3>actually want to be inside working. That's what drives them.

0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:50.360
<v Speaker 2>Ask anyone who is in a long term relationship with

0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:53.080
<v Speaker 2>a doctor who is not also a doctor, and ask

0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:56.680
<v Speaker 2>them what penalties that has put on their life together

0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:58.720
<v Speaker 2>and on their family life if they have a family.

0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:03.080
<v Speaker 2>It's a massive commitment, and medicine really eats people's lives up,

0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:06.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's a huge thing. And I have so

0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:09.159
<v Speaker 2>much respect for our members and the works they do.

0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:11.840
<v Speaker 2>You know, the stories that I hear about the works

0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:14.520
<v Speaker 2>they do, about the path they took to be able

0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:17.159
<v Speaker 2>to do that work is incredible.

0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:19.520
<v Speaker 3>But so much of the time now it's about well,

0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:21.000
<v Speaker 3>I can't do that work. We should be doing this,

0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:22.720
<v Speaker 3>we should be doing that, which should be doing this?

0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:26.639
<v Speaker 3>Can't do it or it's dangerous. You know, our service

0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:30.040
<v Speaker 3>is dangerous, and that's a terrible thing. People starting to

0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:32.000
<v Speaker 3>decide didn't want to come to work today. You know,

0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:35.400
<v Speaker 3>it's too hard, it's too risky. At the same time,

0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:38.840
<v Speaker 3>trying to give patients confidence that everything's going to be fine.

0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:41.520
<v Speaker 2>We're going to care for you. We will do our best,

0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:45.840
<v Speaker 2>and they do, you know, but it's pretty grim.

0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:47.640
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for joining us, Sarah.

0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:49.000
<v Speaker 3>Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:52.840
<v Speaker 4>That said.

0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:56.080
<v Speaker 1>For this episode of The Front Page. You can read

0:17:56.119 --> 0:18:00.199
<v Speaker 1>more about today's stories and extensive news coverage and at

0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:04.280
<v Speaker 1>Herald dot co dot nz. The Front Page is produced

0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:08.000
<v Speaker 1>by Jane Yee and Richard Martin, who is also our editor.

0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:12.880
<v Speaker 1>I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio

0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:16.480
<v Speaker 1>or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow

0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:18.560
<v Speaker 1>for another look behind the headlines.