1 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: Kilda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, 2 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Thousands 3 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 1: of senior doctors are on strike until midnight tonight after 4 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: walking off the job yesterday. Their long running pay dispute 5 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: with Health New Zealand continues, with doctors saying the latest 6 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:35,520 Speaker 1: offer represents a real pay cut when recruitment and retention 7 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: is critical. Meanwhile, Health Minister Simeon Brown claims they're putting 8 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: pay and politics ahead of patients after thousands of elective 9 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 1: procedures and appointments have been postponed. So what will end 10 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: this cycle of disputes and strikes and how do we 11 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: fix our health system that's been in crisis for decades. 12 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: Today on the Front Page, Asms Executive Director Sarah Dalton 13 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: is with us to break down the latest in talks 14 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: and what we can do in future. What are the 15 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: main issues driving senior doctors and dentists to strike and 16 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 1: how long have talks with the Health New Zealand has 17 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: been stalled. 18 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 2: There are really two big parts I think to the 19 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 2: strike action for our members. One is the staffing shortages 20 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 2: and the other is the fact that Health New Zealand 21 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 2: has continued to offer real terms pay cuts to our 22 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 2: members year on year since COVID. So on the one hand, 23 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 2: everyone acknowledges there are significant staff and gaps and a 24 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 2: number of specialties and a number of hospitals around New Zealand. 25 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 2: But on the other hand, knowing this, health New Zealand 26 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 2: appears to be doing nothing to address retention or recruitment. 27 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 2: And the obvious way to deal with retention and recruitment 28 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 2: is through better terms and conditions, right, And I guess 29 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 2: the other frustration is that while they're crying poor and 30 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 2: saying that we've got We've given you all the money 31 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 2: we possibly can, we have nothing more to offer to 32 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 2: settle terms and conditions for salary to doctors and dentists. 33 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 2: Just in the last twelve months they shelled out over 34 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 2: two hundred million dollars on locums, which is effectively tempts. 35 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 2: You know, So they do have money, they're just choosing 36 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:26,079 Speaker 2: to spend it in interesting ways. 37 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,359 Speaker 1: And what are some of those interesting ways? 38 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 3: Well, for example, why would you prioritize. 39 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 2: Letting locum rates go up and up and up for 40 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 2: temporary labor who, of course do a good job, but 41 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 2: they don't do the whole job, and they're not here 42 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 2: for the long haul. While at the same time you're 43 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 2: saying to a salary doctor, no, we're not going to 44 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 2: pay you a retention allowance for working in Gisbon or 45 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 2: in Vicago, or we're not going to pay a recruitment 46 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 2: allowance for guyne oncologists because there are hardly any left 47 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 2: in this country that it would be actually cheaper for 48 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 2: Health New Zealand and better for the public if they 49 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 2: incentivize salaried work and disincentivized locan work. So the story 50 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 2: was that, you know, under twenty DHBs they could drive 51 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,239 Speaker 2: up the rates, you know, by one hospital competing against 52 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 2: another for locums. Yet under a single employer they have 53 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 2: driven up the rates as a single employer for locums. 54 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 2: So you can earn a huge amount of money by saying, look, 55 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 2: I'll volunteer to go and work in this place for 56 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 2: a week or over a weekend or whatever. Yet the 57 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 2: people who are there all of the time, running the department, 58 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 2: doing the planning, doing the audit, supervising other staff are 59 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 2: earning significantly less. 60 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 3: So it does seem a little bit back to front. 61 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to say, do a lot of 62 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: people just forego the salaried work and just go and 63 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: be like, yeah, I'll do the casual loco work. 64 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 3: Well, that's starting to be the case, and that is 65 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 3: what our real worry is. It is already a real 66 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 3: trend in psychiatry where there are massive staff and gaps 67 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 3: and a number of services will have more locums than 68 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 3: salaried specialists on staff now and that's terrible, particularly because 69 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 3: in mental health you're often looking for continuity of care. 70 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 3: You are looking for the people that are in the 71 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 3: care of our specialist mental health services. You know they 72 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 3: do better when they have stable staff who are there 73 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 3: to get to know them and work with them. And 74 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 3: I'm not trying to diss the people who are working 75 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:34,919 Speaker 3: as locums. We know they're doing valuable work and we 76 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 3: know that there are a lot of places that can 77 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 3: you have to rely on them because of decisions made 78 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 3: by DHBs and Health New Zealand about lower and the 79 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 3: staffing levels. Effectively, we see there's been a sink England 80 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 3: on staffing for some time. 81 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 1: How do senior doctors respond to the claims that their 82 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: action amounts to quote, putting pay and politics ahead of patients. 83 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: That's suggested by the Health minister. 84 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 3: Well, that's his job, isn't it. You know, he's a politician. 85 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 3: He's playing politics, and that's fine. But our members aren't politicians. 86 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 3: They're doctors. 87 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 2: It's really hard for them to take strike action because 88 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 2: they are trying to put patients first. They are trained 89 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 2: not to walk away from people who need care. But 90 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 2: it has reached the point now that the health system 91 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 2: is actually on a daily basis preventing them from giving 92 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 2: people the care they need. I guess the term that 93 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 2: academics use for this is moral injury, the injury that 94 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 2: you suffer when you're actually prevented from doing the work 95 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 2: that you're trained to do in the way and so 96 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 2: our members spend a lot of time trying to do 97 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 2: the least worst thing for patients rather than the best thing. 98 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: This understaffing and the health crisis that we talk about 99 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 1: has been going on for successive governments. How do we 100 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: put an end to it fair and square, Because I'm 101 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 1: pretty sure that a majority of the public wouldn't mind 102 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: tax dollars going towards our health system because that's where 103 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: we go when we you know, we're at our most 104 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 1: vulnerable and we need the most help, right, So how 105 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: does this? 106 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 3: How do we stop this? 107 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 2: I think that's a really great question. I mean, this government, 108 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 2: this particular government, loves targets. We don't love the targets 109 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 2: they've picked. But if they want to obsess about targets, 110 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 2: how about a workforce target or two to go alongside 111 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 2: the care. 112 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 3: Targets, because it's I think it's another thing. 113 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 2: You know, it's really hard for hospital staff when they 114 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 2: know they're really short staffed, and then they've given all 115 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 2: these supposed productivity targets, performance targets that they have to 116 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:27,840 Speaker 2: meet when they know that there's no way that that. 117 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 3: Can realistically happen. So some workforce targets would be great. 118 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 3: And then I think there needs to be some multi 119 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 3: party agreements about the kind of hospital system, the kind 120 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 3: of health system that New Zealand is willing to continue 121 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 3: to fund and to provide. And if we've got some 122 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 3: multi party buy into some health basics, you know, and 123 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 3: even health basics are pretty expensive, defining what our health basics? 124 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 3: Does that include. 125 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 2: Hips, does that include age, residential care, does it include 126 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 2: dentistry which it currently does, and of course you know 127 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 2: what services does it include? 128 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 3: What have people got a right to expect and then 129 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 3: we could You know, there are people out there that 130 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 3: know how to calculate what level of resource, what level 131 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 3: of staffing is required, and obviously for a number of 132 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 3: people now the question needs to be asked, how close 133 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 3: to home can your care be provided. You know, there's 134 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 3: a massive growth of Tallyhealth. That's a great supplement to 135 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 3: other kinds of healthcare. But if that's all you're being 136 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 3: offered because you happen to live rurally, or because where 137 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 3: you live all of the GP practices are full and 138 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 3: they're not taking more patients, it is a poor second 139 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 3: to face to face care. And I'm not trying to 140 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 3: diss tallyhealth and it has its place, but simply as 141 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 3: a substitute for in person care, I don't think that's 142 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 3: good enough. I don't think that's what New Zealanders expect 143 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 3: their tax dollars to buy. And again, it's a privatized 144 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 3: way of providing care because most of that care is 145 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 3: contracted out. So you know, we've put out a recent 146 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 3: report about how health has been funded. We know that 147 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 3: since twenty eighteen, New Zealand has not been submitting its 148 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 3: health resource and data to the OECD. So all of 149 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 3: the comparators that are made between us in like countries 150 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 3: are rough guesses, they're rough estimates, and they're overestimates because 151 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 3: we've also been including GST in the way health spend 152 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 3: has been costed, which other countries don't do, so we've 153 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 3: been overinflating what's been spent on health in this country. 154 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 3: And also now we no longer seem to have the 155 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 3: capability within the Ministry of Health to submit the data 156 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 3: for international comparisons. They just seem so fundamental, and it 157 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 3: took this recent report that we commission to uncover that 158 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 3: people didn't know that that was no longer happening. So 159 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 3: we've got some really fundamental things that need to be rethought, 160 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 3: I think, by government, by the policy people who advise government, 161 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 3: and I think now is a great time for. 162 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,599 Speaker 2: People, through community groups and just speaking up directly to 163 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 2: let government and opposition know what kind of health system 164 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 2: we want, we expect. 165 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 4: You know, senior doctors are wanting to strike. That's going 166 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 4: to cause grief to thirteen thousand patients this week, which 167 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 4: I don't think is very fair. 168 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 3: But but hang on, they're striking for a reason, right, 169 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 3: They don't just do that on a whim. 170 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 4: No sure, but but what they are doing is that 171 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 4: they've had a year of negotiations. The Minister said, let's 172 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 4: get this resolved after a year, let's go to binding arbitration. 173 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 4: That was rejected outright and as a result they're going 174 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 4: through to strike. I mean, you just have to remember 175 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 4: these are some of the most well paid public servants 176 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 4: we have in the country. You know, they've put another 177 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 4: offer from healthyw Zealand on top, just recently another one 178 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 4: hundred and sixty million dollars of taxpayer funding to get 179 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 4: five and a half thousand senior doctors contracts resolved. Our 180 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 4: viewers stay in the bargaining process, go into strikes. 181 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: The Minister's also pointed to the average renumeration of senior 182 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: doctors that's just over three hundred and forty three thousand 183 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: dollars six weeks and you'll leave in a fully paid 184 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: six months sabbatical every six years. Now, this wouldn't be 185 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: the first time that we've seen a minister conflate figures 186 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,319 Speaker 1: like this. Would you agree? 187 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 2: Well, I don't agree, and I'll start with it's a 188 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 2: three month sabbatical after every six years. And many members 189 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 2: wrote to us last time he bandied about that three 190 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 2: hundred and forty seven thousand dollars number in Setif I 191 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 2: was earning that much money, I would not be going 192 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,319 Speaker 2: on strike. I would not be concerned about where this 193 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 2: is going. And I think it's also another cheap line 194 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 2: that politicians and some health leaders like to use, is oh, well, 195 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 2: there are international medical workforce shortages. You know, we're in 196 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 2: a competitor international markets, So what can we do well, 197 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 2: do more than you're doing at the moment. Don't slag 198 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 2: off those specialists who we need. Think about what it 199 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 2: is New Zealand can do. If we can't match Australian salaries, 200 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 2: what could we do that would make people want to 201 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 2: stay here or want to come here instead of going 202 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 2: to Australia. Because you know, nearly fifty percent of our 203 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 2: medical senior medical workforce comes from overseas, so we have 204 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,319 Speaker 2: to be thoughtful about how we continue to attract those 205 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 2: people and keep them here because we have a heavy 206 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 2: reliance on them. We could not run our health system 207 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 2: without those people. So the long term solution is to 208 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 2: train more doctors in New Zealand, but that's it'll be 209 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 2: a lot, very long time. 210 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 3: If ever, that we train enough of. 211 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 2: Our own senior doctors and dentists here, So if we 212 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 2: can't match Australian salaries, what could we do differently? Oh, 213 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 2: we could staff really generously, right, So you know a 214 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 2: lot of our members when I talked to them, they said, 215 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 2: you know, I don't used to mind that we were 216 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 2: relatively poorly paid. But the Australian comparison is an important 217 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 2: one because so many of them are in Australasian colleges, 218 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 2: so they train with groups of people who disperse across 219 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 2: both countries, so they're on chatting terms with a lot 220 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 2: of people working in Australia. I didn't used to mind 221 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 2: that they earned so much more than us because I 222 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 2: had a great work life balance, I had lots of colleagues, 223 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 2: I had interesting, challenging work, and people listened to us 224 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:34,839 Speaker 2: and they valued our views on how to better run 225 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 2: our service, how to better run our hospital, how to 226 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 2: better serve our community. Now they feel like they're not heard, 227 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 2: they are sanctioned if they speak out. They don't have 228 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 2: enough colleagues. They are really tired, lots of burnout, and 229 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 2: they're like, no one listens to me anymore, So I 230 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 2: may as well chase more money because there's nothing else left. 231 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 2: That is a terrible situation for us to have put 232 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 2: those people in. But that is, you know, that is 233 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 2: what they will say. 234 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: What's next, Sarah? 235 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 3: Look, what I. 236 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 2: Really hope is that we can get some more I 237 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 2: was going to say more intelligent engagement across the table obviously, 238 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 2: which sounds harsh, but it's been pretty empty right. The 239 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 2: only times Health New Zealand has brought even brought an 240 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 2: offer to the table, let alone improve it is when 241 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 2: we've called strike action. Now, that's pretty blunt and pretty basic. 242 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 2: We would have liked to have had senior enough people 243 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 2: across the table right from the start to work through 244 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 2: issues with us. Can we talk about staffing levels? Can 245 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 2: we talk about where your workforce planning is at? Can 246 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 2: we talk about where our collective agreement, where our negotiations 247 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 2: fit into that and the short and the medium term. 248 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 2: Can we have a conversation about that. Can we have 249 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 2: some commitments that we can take to our members that 250 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 2: say we can you know, we can give you this 251 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 2: now and that later. 252 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 3: Is that good enough? We don't get that. 253 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 2: We get you can have this much, but no more. 254 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 2: And also if we give you this much. Don't tell 255 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 2: the others because they'll want it to like it's real 256 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 2: kindergarten stuff, or they'll say and to make up the 257 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 2: difference because they don't want to They don't want to 258 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 2: include a settlement that covers the year we've been em bargaining, 259 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 2: so no backdating. Effectively, they're saying, instead of that, here's 260 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 2: a lump of money, spend it how you like. 261 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 3: Now, that is not what I would call quality negotiations 262 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 3: what I would like them to do. 263 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 2: And when we came back the other day and said, well, 264 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 2: continuing medical education, it's really important for specialists to maintain 265 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 2: currency of their knowledge. That fund, which is to reimburse 266 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 2: doctors for the costs of attending conferences, doing courses, making 267 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 2: sure that their. 268 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 3: Knowledge is up to date. 269 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 2: That amount hasn't gone up since about two thousand and nine. 270 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 2: How about we put a bit more money into that 271 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 2: And they said, oh, oh no, we don't think we 272 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 2: could do that, you know, or we'd have to. 273 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 3: Go and check. It's like, well, go and check then, 274 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 3: you know, go and check now. And I'm consumed because 275 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 3: it sounds like I'm bargaining through the media now and 276 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 3: I don't want to do that, but it isn't. 277 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 2: It's just very frustrating, you know when we actually would 278 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 2: like to have a conversation of like, you don't want 279 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 2: to put money on seeing me, can you talk to 280 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 2: us about why that is? And you know you don't 281 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 2: want to increase your contribution to superannuation. We know one 282 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 2: of the reasons they don't want to, so they make 283 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 2: a six percent up to a six percent contribution super 284 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 2: is one of the strongest retention things an employer can do, 285 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 2: right because it's a shared commitment to sticking around, and 286 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 2: they don't want to do it because they don't offer 287 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 2: six percent to nurses or allied health workers or admin 288 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 2: staff in Health New Zealand. Again, it's like, oh, if 289 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 2: you have that, other people will want it. We don't 290 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 2: want to give it to them. Why don't you want 291 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 2: to give it to them? They're holding a health system up. 292 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 2: You should be offering to match all of our health 293 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 2: workers superannuation to whatever the key we say the maximum is. 294 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 2: I think it might be up around ten percent. Now, 295 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 2: why don't. 296 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 3: You do that? It's only a cost of people choose 297 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 3: to contribute that much themselves and it shows value. But 298 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 3: we're not having that kind of a conversation. It's a 299 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 3: scraping the bottom of the barrel kind of a conversation, 300 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 3: you know, And what's the least we can do to 301 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 3: make you stop this? That's pretty much the vibe. You know. 302 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 3: Our members find it disrespectful, you know, they really it's disheartening. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 303 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 3: they just don't like it at all. 304 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 2: Hence here we are with the forty eight hour strike, unprecedented, 305 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 2: and our members are really unhappy about it. 306 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 3: You know, they don't want to be doing that. They 307 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 3: actually want to be inside working. That's what drives them. 308 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 2: Ask anyone who is in a long term relationship with 309 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 2: a doctor who is not also a doctor, and ask 310 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 2: them what penalties that has put on their life together 311 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 2: and on their family life if they have a family. 312 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 2: It's a massive commitment, and medicine really eats people's lives up, 313 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 2: you know, it's a huge thing. And I have so 314 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 2: much respect for our members and the works they do. 315 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 2: You know, the stories that I hear about the works 316 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 2: they do, about the path they took to be able 317 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 2: to do that work is incredible. 318 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 3: But so much of the time now it's about well, 319 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 3: I can't do that work. We should be doing this, 320 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 3: we should be doing that, which should be doing this? 321 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 3: Can't do it or it's dangerous. You know, our service 322 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 3: is dangerous, and that's a terrible thing. People starting to 323 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 3: decide didn't want to come to work today. You know, 324 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 3: it's too hard, it's too risky. At the same time, 325 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 3: trying to give patients confidence that everything's going to be fine. 326 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 2: We're going to care for you. We will do our best, 327 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 2: and they do, you know, but it's pretty grim. 328 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:47,640 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Sarah. 329 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 3: Thank you. It's been a pleasure. 330 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 4: That said. 331 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: For this episode of The Front Page. You can read 332 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:00,199 Speaker 1: more about today's stories and extensive news coverage and at 333 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: Herald dot co dot nz. The Front Page is produced 334 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: by Jane Yee and Richard Martin, who is also our editor. 335 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:12,880 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio 336 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow 337 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: for another look behind the headlines.